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footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2011, 04:57 PM
I think I've finally figured out why the Broncos simply refuse to fix their defensive line. I see only one possible answer to this, and it's finally clear.

Pat Bowlen is the sole decision maker in the draft, and he always has been.

How else can it be explained, that in a draft so pregnant with D-line help it's almost impossible to not take one, the position we need help at the most...and we got NOTHING in the first two rounds? Austin? Paea? We'll pass on Kenrick Ellis too I'm sure.

Across the last four coaching regimes, the draft day refusal to go after D-linemen high in the draft with only a couple of ugly exceptions is startling...can all four coaches reallly be this opposed to drafting D-line guys high? I can't see how that's it...it has to be Bowlen doing this.

bowtown
04-29-2011, 04:57 PM
Great, another Bush thread.

crush17
04-29-2011, 04:59 PM
please stfu and diaf.

WABronco
04-29-2011, 05:00 PM
Mad.

crush17
04-29-2011, 05:11 PM
Mad.

FOR WHAT??

What is the point of EVER being mad about the NFL Draft?

That is the most asinine thing ever.

You never know what is going to happen with ANY of these picks. Injuries, off-field issues, wives who stab them, etc.

You have no control over what cards life deals any of these players so I don't know why you would ever get mad about any of it. Seriously, take a ****ing valium.

footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2011, 05:11 PM
Serously...if Bowlen isn't running the draft how else can we explain this common theme that occurs every year?

I'm all ears if someone has a better explanation.

WABronco
04-29-2011, 05:12 PM
FOR WHAT??

What is the point of EVER being mad about the NFL Draft?

That is the most asinine thing ever.

You never know what is going to happen with ANY of these picks. Injuries, off-field issues, wives who stab them, etc.

You have no control over what cards life deals any of these players so I don't know why you would ever get mad about any of it. Seriously, take a ****ing valium.

I ain't mad.

Lev Vyvanse
04-29-2011, 05:14 PM
I ain't mad.

No he mad.

LRtagger
04-29-2011, 05:16 PM
u mad?

WABronco
04-29-2011, 05:16 PM
No he mad.

They all mad.

Boomhauer
04-29-2011, 05:17 PM
Great, another Bush thread.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Oq7x_sZoa24/Si3cP-5gumI/AAAAAAAAC4c/_TmO0PyoK3c/s400/HPIM6381.JPG

Lev Vyvanse
04-29-2011, 05:19 PM
I bet Bowlen is mad.

WABronco
04-29-2011, 05:20 PM
I bet Bowlen is mad.

They be all like "we need dem DT's." He's like "get out my face Seven."

OBF1
04-29-2011, 05:34 PM
Serously...if Bowlen isn't running the draft how else can we explain this common theme that occurs every year?

I'm all ears if someone has a better explanation.

On the light rail today I was told that Denver is not going to go with any DT's just to watch Footsteps make a clown out of himself.


Mission accomplished. ;D

footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2011, 05:40 PM
On the light rail today I was told that Denver is not going to go with any DT's just to watch Footsteps make a clown out of himself.


Mission accomplished. ;D
The Giants take Austin and Chicago gets Paea...how bout that, two teams that know something about defense huh? As opposed to the Broncos of course, who know little to nothing about it. So I repeat...aside from juvenile smart ass comments, do you have an explanation that fits better with why this team has done this for the last 3 decades? Or do you really think John Fox is no more commited to the d-line than Shanny was?

I await your intelligent response.

crush17
04-29-2011, 05:44 PM
You are a freaking moron footsteps. Grade A.

enjolras
04-29-2011, 05:45 PM
Its obvious that this board thinks much more highly of Paea and Austin than our decision makers. I'm not sure who is right or wrong, but this idea that there is some bias against DT is just stupid. They didn't like the players, so they drafted someone else.

I don't have a problem with it. If they managed to grab an impact offensive linemen to replace Harris and a Safety to fix the BIGGEST position of need.... then I'm all for it. There is no point in taking a DT just because that's what you need. They have to be a player.

crush17
04-29-2011, 05:47 PM
Its obvious that this board thinks much more highly of Paea and Austin than our decision makers. I'm not sure who is right or wrong, but this idea that there is some bias against DT is just stupid. They didn't like the players, so they drafted someone else.

I don't have a problem with it. If they managed to grab an impact offensive linemen to replace Harris and a Safety to fix the BIGGEST position of need.... then I'm all for it. There is no point in taking a DT just because that's what you need. They have to be a player.

Boom. Outta here.

Kid A
04-29-2011, 05:48 PM
Um, if they don't like/want to resign Harris, I'd say the blindside tackle for our QBOTF is about as important a position as we could need to fill. We won 4 games last year; we have a lot of major holes, and a we simply can't address all of them in the first few picks.

Lev Vyvanse
04-29-2011, 05:51 PM
The Giants take Austin and Chicago gets Paea...how bout that, two teams that know something about defense huh? As opposed to the Broncos of course, who know little to nothing about it. So I repeat...aside from juvenile smart ass comments, do you have an explanation that fits better with why this team has done this for the last 3 decades? Or do you really think John Fox is no more commited to the d-line than Shanny was?

I await your intelligent response.

Maybe he has flashbacks of Ted Gregory?

footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2011, 05:52 PM
Its obvious that this board thinks much more highly of Paea and Austin than our decision makers. I'm not sure who is right or wrong, but this idea that there is some bias against DT is just stupid. They didn't like the players, so they drafted someone else.

I don't have a problem with it. If they managed to grab an impact offensive linemen to replace Harris and a Safety to fix the BIGGEST position of need.... then I'm all for it. There is no point in taking a DT just because that's what you need. They have to be a player.
A couple months back I posted in here that Denver MIGHT consider drafting a RT high in this draft to protect against the possibility Harris wouldn't be here, and I was laughed to scorn in here by people saying it was insanely stupid...we would OBVIOUSLY go d-line, of course.

Now that they've once against steadfastly refused to draft any d-line help in the top two rounds, it's now time to get on the OT help for Tebow bandwagon huh?

Austin-Giants
Paea- Bears

Give me what they know over what we know 7 days a week and twice on Sunday when it comes to d-line talent. Is there anyone at all on this board who would even attempt to argue that point?

footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2011, 05:53 PM
Um, if they don't like/want to resign Harris, I'd say the blindside tackle for our QBOTF is about as important a position as we could need to fill. We won 4 games last year; we have a lot of major holes, and a we simply can't address all of them in the first few picks.
What excuse will you use next year?

DarkHorse
04-29-2011, 05:56 PM
Curious as to what our resident Gm's do for a living during real life.

Archer81
04-29-2011, 06:10 PM
A lot of crying before the draft is over...

:Broncos:

SureShot
04-29-2011, 06:14 PM
Bowlen cant even find his pants.

BroncoInferno
04-29-2011, 06:16 PM
A couple months back I posted in here that Denver MIGHT consider drafting a RT high in this draft to protect against the possibility Harris wouldn't be here, and I was laughed to scorn in here by people saying it was insanely stupid...we would OBVIOUSLY go d-line, of course.

Now that they've once against steadfastly refused to draft any d-line help in the top two rounds, it's now time to get on the OT help for Tebow bandwagon huh?

Austin-Giants
Paea- Bears

Give me what they know over what we know 7 days a week and twice on Sunday when it comes to d-line talent. Is there anyone at all on this board who would even attempt to argue that point?

Um, different teams have different opinions? That's a dumb argument. Maybe they liked Paea, but liked Franklin a lot better? Who knows? Why not give these kids a chance before bashing them all to hell?

Kid A
04-29-2011, 06:16 PM
What excuse will you use next year?

Hell, I'm not excusing them if they completely ignore DT this off-season. I'm just saying it's a little conspiratorial to think there is actually some organizational bias against drafting DT that has carried through three very different coaching regimes. For various reasons (some of them worth criticizing) they have chosen not to use high draft picks at this position.

As for not having drafted DT this year in the first two rounds, I do think they have a good excuse. A hole at RT, especially with a lefty QB in the wings, is a big ****ing hole. An ancient secondary with safety issues is a big hole. Our linebackers and pass-rush have been a big hole for years.

When you're the second worst team in the league, going BPA is probably going to fill a big hole no matter the position. I know the DT position holds a special notoriety amongst Broncos fans after the last decade of pain, but outside maybe WR, QB, RB or center I can't think of position that didn't need major help after last year.

listopencil
04-29-2011, 06:20 PM
Worst. Thread. Ever.

footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2011, 06:22 PM
Worst. Thread. Ever.
I take it you have no answer to the question either then.

footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2011, 06:29 PM
Hell, I'm not excusing them if they completely ignore DT this off-season. I'm just saying it's a little conspiratorial to think there is actually some organizational bias against drafting DT that has carried through three very different coaching regimes. For various reasons (some of them worth criticizing) they have chosen not to use high draft picks at this position.

As for not having drafted DT this year in the first two rounds, I do think they have a good excuse. A hole at RT, especially with a lefty QB in the wings, is a big ****ing hole. An ancient secondary with safety issues is a big hole. Our linebackers and pass-rush have been a big hole for years.

When you're the second worst team in the league, going BPA is probably going to fill a big hole no matter the position. I know the DT position holds a special notoriety amongst Broncos fans after the last decade of pain, but outside maybe WR, QB, RB or center I can't think of position that didn't need major help after last year.
Here's something to try for fun...go back and dig up the draft day threads on the OM from the previous years, and in virtually every case, what you're going to find is exactly what you're doing here....in the days leading up to the draft, posters are all excited about this d-line guy or that one, and who will be there when we pick...then it always ends the same; Denver passes over defensive line talent ONCE AGAIN and selects...something else. It happens every single draft...except for the Moss draft, and we coldn't even get it right then. There is simply no reasonable explanation you can offer that explains why other NFL teams like Baltimore, Pittsburgh, New England...even the freaking Cheifs...value defensive linemen and we do not. As soon as we have a guy who gets good ad wants to get paid, we ship him elsewhere. We drag in over the hill has-beens in free agency like the Browncos, Leon Lett, etc...every year we do this, and every year we pass on viable talent in the draft.

If it's not Bowlen's influence doing this...then provide a rational explanation for this. This horse**** that there was nobody worth drafting won't wash this time around. We know this draft was stocked with d-line talent and we came up with NOTHING. I can already tell you this, it will happen next year also. I'm gonne predict right now that we won't draft d-line help early next year either.

listopencil
04-29-2011, 06:34 PM
I take it you have no answer to the question either then.

I thought it was obvious. It's a stupid idea with no merit whatsoever. In fact our draft history, as well as our talent acquisition history, shows the exact opposite. Bowlen puts a Head Coach in charge with a weak Front Office around him. Bowlen then backs off and mentions how much faith he has in the Head Coach, right up until Bowlen fires him when the **** hits the fan. The current Front Office bucks that trend. This thread makes you appear incredibly foolish.

footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2011, 06:41 PM
I thought it was obvious. It's a stupid idea with no merit whatsoever. In fact our draft history, as well as our talent acquisition history, shows the exact opposite. Bowlen puts a Head Coach in charge with a weak Front Office around him. Bowlen then backs off and mentions how much faith he has in the Head Coach, right up until Bowlen fires him when the **** hits the fan. The current Front Office bucks that trend. This thread makes you appear incredibly foolish.
What draft and talent aquisition history would that be? The one that dragged in Courtney Brown and the rest of the Browncos? The one that gave us Leon Lett and the other FA busts? The one that failed in it's only attempt at drafting D-line in the firt round with Moss? You make no sense. The FACT is...across four coaching regimes and nearly 3 decades, this team has remained a smallish, finesse type team with weak players in the defensive trenches, and except for a couple FA signings that we hit on in the Superbowl years, the rest of our legacy here is remarkably consistent...we ignore talent in the draft and bring in failure after failure through FA and crappy trades or waiver wire pickups. We do not value the d-line and we never have...never in the history of Bowlen owning this team.

The Moops
04-29-2011, 06:42 PM
For anyone that has a clue about Bowlen, this is a ridiculous statement.

Sorry, but true.

BroncoInSkinland
04-29-2011, 06:45 PM
Serously...if Bowlen isn't running the draft how else can we explain this common theme that occurs every year?

I'm all ears if someone has a better explanation.

Shannahan was an offensive mind that viewed d as the "lesser" of the two phases. Since Elways departure he spent his time trying to elevate the offense to a level that could match a once in a life time QB talent.

In my opinion, McDaniels was trying to remove the Shanahan stamp from the team and make it "his" offense.

I would hazard a guess that the current philosophy is that we need a defensive leader in a linebacker position, but I haven't really seen enough of the current leadership to state that as a firm conviction.

All that having been said I am frustrated by the lack of attention to the defensive trenches AGAIN, so I understand where you are coming from. Keep in mind however that this is a multiple year rebuilding phase, not a simple "reload". We really need to give this regime two or even three years to establish how we get from A to B. That or we can keep the rotating door at the coaching positions going until we luck into another top 5 of all time quarterback.

footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2011, 06:50 PM
For anyone that has a clue about Bowlen, this is a ridiculous statement.

Sorry, but true.
99% of the posters on this board know almost nothing about Pat Bowlen. What we do know for a fact, is that when we think of the Ravens or Steelers what comes to mind is big, nasty and physical play. When we think of the Broncos...what comes to mind are finesse teams, teams without a defense, teams that get pushed around and bullied by bigger tougher teams, especially agaisnt our weak defensive front. What we also know about Bowlen is that our defensive line in his era has been consistently bad, that we almost never make any effort in the draft to address it, and that we consistently pass up d-linemen in the early rounds in order to take almost any other position. I think we'd take a punter if that were the only other option.

We don't know how to draft d-linemen, or we don't want to. Those are the only possible answers. The only consistent voice during this entire legacy of failure is Bowlen's.

footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2011, 06:54 PM
Shannahan was an offensive mind that viewed d as the "lesser" of the two phases. Since Elways departure he spent his time trying to elevate the offense to a level that could match a once in a life time QB talent.

In my opinion, McDaniels was trying to remove the Shanahan stamp from the team and make it "his" offense.

I would hazard a guess that the current philosophy is that we need a defensive leader in a linebacker position, but I haven't really seen enough of the current leadership to state that as a firm conviction.

All that having been said I am frustrated by the lack of attention to the defensive trenches AGAIN, so I understand where you are coming from. Keep in mind however that this is a multiple year rebuilding phase, not a simple "reload". We really need to give this regime two or even three years to establish how we get from A to B. That or we can keep the rotating door at the coaching positions going until we luck into another top 5 of all time quarterback.
The excuse last year, was that the d-line talent just wasn't there. That excuse wont' wash this time around. This was the deepest draft in memory for a position we are easily one of the bottom three teams in the league at. We could have added BOTH Austin and Paea to go with Miller. Yet once again...even in an incrediblly talented d-line draft like this one...we ignored the position entirely.

It's time to admit the truth...we will never have a good defense till we get a good defensive line. We will never have a good defensive line as long as Bowlen owns this team. The evidence for any other conclusion does not exist.

BroncoInferno
04-29-2011, 06:54 PM
99% of the posters on this board know almost nothing about Pat Bowlen. What we do know for a fact, is that when we think of the Ravens or Steelers what comes to mind is big, nasty and physical play. When we think of the Broncos...what comes to mind are finesse teams, teams without a defense, teams that get pushed around and bullied by bigger tougher teams, especially agaisnt our weak defensive front. What we also know about Bowlen is that our defensive line in his era has been consistently bad, that we almost never make any effort in the draft to address it, and that we consistently pass up d-linemen in the early rounds in order to take almost any other position. I think we'd take a punter if that were the only other option.

We don't know how to draft d-linemen, or we don't want to. Those are the only possible answers. The only consistent voice during this entire legacy of failure is Bowlen's.

Dude, do you really think Bowlen has a say in the draft process? Shanny was by all accounts the czar for player personnel when here, and he was always in a win now mode. Since DTs take time to develope typically, it went with his philosphy to try get guys in FA that could help right away. Not that I agree with that, but what about it implicates Bowlen? McD was running a 3-4, so DL have a bit less value, plus if you actually look back at the drafts when he was here there realy wern't great DL prospects available in the early round when we picked. MAYBE Brace, but it's not like he's done much with New England.

Kid A
04-29-2011, 06:57 PM
Here's something to try for fun...go back and dig up the draft day threads on the OM from the previous years, and in virtually every case, what you're going to find is exactly what you're doing here....in the days leading up to the draft, posters are all excited about this d-line guy or that one, and who will be there when we pick...then it always ends the same; Denver passes over defensive line talent ONCE AGAIN and selects...something else. It happens every single draft...except for the Moss draft, and we coldn't even get it right then. There is simply no reasonable explanation you can offer that explains why other NFL teams like Baltimore, Pittsburgh, New England...even the freaking Cheifs...value defensive linemen and we do not. As soon as we have a guy who gets good ad wants to get paid, we ship him elsewhere. We drag in over the hill has-beens in free agency like the Browncos, Leon Lett, etc...every year we do this, and every year we pass on viable talent in the draft.

If it's not Bowlen's influence doing this...then provide a rational explanation for this. This horse**** that there was nobody worth drafting won't wash this time around. We know this draft was stocked with d-line talent and we came up with NOTHING. I can already tell you this, it will happen next year also. I'm gonne predict right now that we won't draft d-line help early next year either.

I think you're over-thinking this if you think Shanahan/McD/Elway & Fox (a lack of ego is not exactly a common thread here) ignored the DT position because...Bowlen told them not to because he doesn't like drafting DTs???

We're coming off of two offensive minded coaches who were less likely to draft any defensive position, but even they invested some top 3 round picks on d-line. If you want to be frustrated when we don't address what seems to be your biggest frustration with the team, fair enough. Every team in the league (at least in the bottom half) has fans pissed with some position on their team that they feel has been neglected for a decade.

A conspiracy about Bowlen cock-blocking his highly paid front office from getting DTs they want to draft because he...well this part makes the least sense of all, would love to hear a theory...is just over the top. Poor drafting, poor prioritizing on the part of the FO are much better (saner) answers. We shall seen, over the course of the next couple years, how this regime does with the d-line.

footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2011, 06:57 PM
Dude, do you really think Bowlen has a say in the draft process? Shanny was by all accounts the czar for player personnel when here, and he was always in a win now mode. Since DTs take time to develope typically, it went with his philosphy to try get guys in FA that could help right away. Not that I agree with that, but what about it implicates Bowlen? McD was running a 3-4, so DL have a bit less value, plus if you actually look back at the drafts when he was here there realy wern't great DL prospects available in the early round when we picked. MAYBE Brace, but it's not like he's done much with New England.
Do I think the OWNER of the team has a say in the draft process? Hmmm...let me think on that a while...

OK...yes he does.

BroncoInSkinland
04-29-2011, 06:59 PM
The excuse last year, was that the d-line talent just wasn't there. That excuse wont' wash this time around. This was the deepest draft in memory for a position we are easily one of the bottom three teams in the league at. We could have added BOTH Austin and Paea to go with Miller. Yet once again...even in an incrediblly talented d-line draft like this one...we ignored the position entirely.

It's time to admit the truth...we will never have a good defense till we get a good defensive line. We will never have a good defensive line as long as Bowlen owns this team. The evidence for any other conclusion does not exist.

Once a mistake, twice a coincidence, three times a conspiracy? I just don't buy it. Bowlen has too much scotch to drink to waste his time micromanaging drafts. Now if you want to argue that Bowlens choices in head coaches lean towards individuals who don't value DL, I might agree there. Indifference to the trenches as a trickle down effect I can see, but direct involvement from an otherwise hands off owner I just can't.

footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2011, 07:03 PM
I think you're over-thinking this if you think Shanahan/McD/Elway & Fox (a lack of ego is not exactly a common thread here) ignored the DT position because...Bowlen told them not to because he doesn't like drafting DTs???

We're coming off of two offensive minded coaches who were less likely to draft any defensive position, but even they invested some top 3 round picks on d-line. If you want to be frustrated when we don't address what seems to be your biggest frustration with the team, fair enough. Every team in the league (at least in the bottom half) has fans pissed with some position on their team that they feel has been neglected for a decade.

A conspiracy about Bowlen cock-blocking his highly paid front office from getting DTs they want to draft because he...well this part makes the least sense of all, would love to hear a theory...is just over the top. Poor drafting, poor prioritizing on the part of the FO are much better (saner) answers. We shall seen, over the course of the next couple years, how this regime does with the d-line.
Do you think you're going to get any better opportunity to fix the D-line through the draft than we had this year? If we can't take a single d-line guy in this draft, what possible scenario can you describe to me that points to one in which we can? You're like the majority of posters in here in that you want to believe in Bowlen since the team's success is dependent on him in so many ways, which makes you look for excuses to disprove what is right in front of your face. This team has sucked in the d-line for years, and every single draft we hear exactly the same excuses...nobody they had rated highly there, nobody that fit their scheme, etc...it's all bull**** and you're all suckers if you believe this crap. Why we don't want to committ to improving this vital part of the team is anybodies guess...but you can't deny we've ignored it for years, you can't deny we had the opportunity to fix it TODAY and you can't deny we failed to do so...ONCE AGAIN.

BroncoInferno
04-29-2011, 07:04 PM
Do I think the OWNER of the team has a say in the draft process? Hmmm...let me think on that a while...

OK...yes he does.

Where is your proof? Bowlen has ALWAYS had a hands off reputation when it comes to personnel decisions. You're stretching. We were rarely in position to pick DTs that weren't reaches under Shanny, plus he was always in win now mode, and DTs usually take time to develop, so he tried to go with FA types. Bad move, but that was Shanny. McD was a 3-4 guy, so DL have lesser value, and if you look at his two drafts the only time a DL guy in the early rounds was available who was a 3-4 fit and wasn't a reach was Brace in the 2nd in 2009, but he hasn't done much for NE so far, so that's hardly a regrettable miss.

footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2011, 07:07 PM
Once a mistake, twice a coincidence, three times a conspiracy? I just don't buy it. Bowlen has too much scotch to drink to waste his time micromanaging drafts. Now if you want to argue that Bowlens choices in head coaches lean towards individuals who don't value DL, I might agree there. Indifference to the trenches as a trickle down effect I can see, but direct involvement from an otherwise hands off owner I just can't.
You can call it conspiracy or something else...fact is, we faiedl to fix the d-line under any coach Bowlen has hired, and except for a couple FA pickups in the Superbowl run, they've done almost NOTHING to do so. Our legacy in the draft with this issue is beyond pathetic, and all of it falls on Pat Bowlen's watch. Ultimately, he's the guy who signs off on everything.

footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2011, 07:10 PM
Where is your proof? Bowlen has ALWAYS had a hands off reputation when it comes to personnel decisions. You're stretching. We were rarely in position to pick DTs that weren't reaches under Shanny, plus he was always in win now mode, and DTs usually take time to develop, so he tried to go with FA types. Bad move, but that was Shanny. McD was a 3-4 guy, so DL have lesser value, and if you look at his two drafts the only time a DL guy in the early rounds was available who was a 3-4 fit and wasn't a reach was Brace in the 2nd in 2009, but he hasn't done much for NE so far, so that's hardly a regrettable miss.
Any NFL owner can do whatever he wants whenever he wants in terms of making decisions. When R66v6s/Shanny/McD proved they could care less about the d-line, one could say it was just the coaches philosophy. But Fox has a defensive rep...he had Jenkins, Peppers et all in Carolina and knows the value of these guys. For him to be the head coach and our line is this bad and we don't even draft a single guy with our first four picks to fit into the d-line...that tells me something. It tells me someone besides Fox is making the decisions on draft day, and it's not Elway either.

crush17
04-29-2011, 07:11 PM
Please do not continue giving this fool any more to argue with or about.

The fact that any of you are even entertaining this hair brained nonsense is just appalling.

footsteps talks all kinds of stupid ****, all the time. add this to his hall of shame.... worthless.

Kid A
04-29-2011, 07:12 PM
First came the Truthers. Then then the Birthers. Now...the D-Liners! Where's the long-form draft board Elway?! Where. is. the. draft. board? That's right: it doesn't exist because Bowlen calls in the picks himself!

Dendave
04-29-2011, 07:12 PM
Do I think the OWNER of the team has a say in the draft process? Hmmm...let me think on that a while...

OK...yes he does.

you nailed it...he OWNS the team...I guess he can do what he wants

OBF1
04-29-2011, 07:14 PM
The Giants take Austin and Chicago gets Paea...how bout that, two teams that know something about defense huh? As opposed to the Broncos of course, who know little to nothing about it. So I repeat...aside from juvenile smart ass comments, do you have an explanation that fits better with why this team has done this for the last 3 decades? Or do you really think John Fox is no more commited to the d-line than Shanny was?

I await your intelligent response.

How about Denver won 2 superbowls with what.... 1 draft pick that played DT(Trevor Price), the rest were free agent pick ups???

footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2011, 07:15 PM
First came the Truthers. Then then the Birthers. Now...the D-Liners! Where's the long-form draft board Elway?! Where. is. the. draft. board? That's right: it doesn't exist because Bowlen calls in the picks himself!
You're the one using the word "conspiracy". No such idea need be advanced for this. I'm simply saying Bowlen doesn't want to draft d-line guys high in the draft. The team's history proves it. I don't care what you call that...it's true none-the-less. There's no mystery on what this team needed most...and there has rarely ever been a better opportunity to get it. Yet once again...we didnt'.

Excuse that all you want to...it still lands at the feet of Pat Bowlen.

footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2011, 07:19 PM
How about Denver won 2 superbowls with what.... 1 draft pick that played DT(Trevor Price), the rest were free agent pick ups???
And Pryce was drafted when? Oh right...in the first round, and as soon as he wanted to get paid, he was gone.

Bowlen likes other team's castoffs at the DT spot for some reason. Run down the list of them in your mind...when's the last time this team drafted a stud in the d-line?

It was Trevor Pryce...14 years ago.

broncosteven
04-29-2011, 07:20 PM
We should all be greatful that Bowlen had the nerve to cut his losses and run mCd out of Dove Valley.

Give our new, experienced, Defensive oriented HC a chance to implement his plan.

I am guessing that we are going to have bigger growing pains this year than not taking a DT in the 1st 3 rounds.

broncosteven
04-29-2011, 07:24 PM
And Pryce was drafted when? Oh right...in the first round, and as soon as he wanted to get paid, he was gone.

Bowlen likes other team's castoffs at the DT spot for some reason. Run down the list of them in your mind...when's the last time this team drafted a stud in the d-line?

It was Trevor Pryce...14 years ago.

Pryce got at least one Bronco payday (not including his rookie contract), you forget that the real reason he was not resigned the last time was because he was dogging it and not performing commuserate(sp?) to what he would have demanded.

Shanny drafted DL early and often, he just couldn't land anything other than a bust. Drafting in the mid to late 20's didn't help either.

oubronco
04-29-2011, 07:25 PM
Maybe he has flashbacks of Ted Gregory?

We'd kill for him now

oubronco
04-29-2011, 07:27 PM
Worst. Thread. Ever.

Our DT's Vickerson, Fields, McBean

footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2011, 07:29 PM
Pryce got at least one Bronco payday (not including his rookie contract), you forget that the real reason he was not resigned the last time was because he was dogging it and not performing commuserate(sp?) to what he would have demanded.

Shanny drafted DL early and often, he just couldn't land anything other than a bust. Drafting in the mid to late 20's didn't help either.
Pryce seemed to find new life in Baltimore...go figure.

footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2011, 07:30 PM
We should all be greatful that Bowlen had the nerve to cut his losses and run mCd out of Dove Valley.

Give our new, experienced, Defensive oriented HC a chance to implement his plan.

I am guessing that we are going to have bigger growing pains this year than not taking a DT in the 1st 3 rounds.
Such as?

Spider
04-29-2011, 07:32 PM
I think I've finally figured out why the Broncos simply refuse to fix their defensive line. I see only one possible answer to this, and it's finally clear.

Pat Bowlen is the sole decision maker in the draft, and he always has been.

How else can it be explained, that in a draft so pregnant with D-line help it's almost impossible to not take one, the position we need help at the most...and we got NOTHING in the first two rounds? Austin? Paea? We'll pass on Kenrick Ellis too I'm sure.

Across the last four coaching regimes, the draft day refusal to go after D-linemen high in the draft with only a couple of ugly exceptions is startling...can all four coaches reallly be this opposed to drafting D-line guys high? I can't see how that's it...it has to be Bowlen doing this.
:~ohyah!: picking up Big fast Linebackers .......what are the chances we get good steady LB in FA ? much less 2 of them ?

Lev Vyvanse
04-29-2011, 07:33 PM
We'd kill for him now

Really?

DarkHorse
04-29-2011, 07:34 PM
Pryce got at least one Bronco payday (not including his rookie contract), you forget that the real reason he was not resigned the last time was because he was dogging it and not performing commuserate(sp?) to what he would have demanded.

Shanny drafted DL early and often, he just couldn't land anything other than a bust. Drafting in the mid to late 20's didn't help either.

Correct - how many times are you going to touch a hot stove before you learn? Not worried about drafting any one position this year - DT or not. The FO is all in to fix this Defense, the idiots crying about one stupid position when our entire defense sucked are just people that love to whine about anything. Drama queens are all I can think of.

Horrible defense - drafted 3 defenders with our first 4 picks. Yeah, i'm happy with that. DT? No, but i'm sure they have a plan. Happy to see defense priority right now.

BroncoInSkinland
04-29-2011, 07:39 PM
Pat Bowlen is the sole decision maker in the draft, and he always has been.


You can call it conspiracy or something else...fact is, we faiedl to fix the d-line under any coach Bowlen has hired, and except for a couple FA pickups in the Superbowl run, they've done almost NOTHING to do so. Our legacy in the draft with this issue is beyond pathetic, and all of it falls on Pat Bowlen's watch. Ultimately, he's the guy who signs off on everything.

Sole decision and signs off are different. You asserted that Bowlen directly is selecting who we pick in each and every draft, and that viewpoint is so ridiculous that it barely bears arguing.

Does Bowlen tend towards offense oriented teams? Yes. Is it possible that he told Fox and Elway that he wants to shore up the back seven and as a result directed our approach to the draft? Yes. Did he sit down, watch film on hundreds of players, decide on an offensive lineman, two linebackers, and a safety, then manuever towards those specific selections during the NFL draft? I seriously doubt it.

Yes, we have an ongoing, painful, and glaringly obvious need that several changes of leadership have either ignored or been incapable of addressing. No, this is not Bowlen going off on some annual mad rampage, overruling those he put in place to do precisely this job, and directly contradicting every other pattern of behavior he has taken during the rest of the many years he has been in charge. The suggestion that it is, once again in my opinion, silly.

footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2011, 07:42 PM
Sole decision and signs off are different. You asserted that Bowlen directly is selecting who we pick in each and every draft, and that viewpoint is so ridiculous that it barely bears arguing.

Does Bowlen tend towards offense oriented teams? Yes. Is it possible that he told Fox and Elway that he wants to shore up the back seven and as a result directed our approach to the draft? Yes. Did he sit down, watch film on hundreds of players, decide on an offensive lineman, two linebackers, and a safety, then manuever towards those specific selections during the NFL draft? I seriously doubt it.

Yes, we have an ongoing, painful, and glaringly obvious need that several changes of leadership have either ignored or been incapable of addressing. No, this is not Bowlen going off on some annual mad rampage, overruling those he put in place to do precisely this job, and directly contradicting every other pattern of behavior he has taken during the rest of the many years he has been in charge. The suggestion that it is, once again in my opinion, silly.
As Harry Truman said, "the buck stops here". It doesn't matter if he signs off on decisions or has his personal hand in it...bottom line is; we can't or won't address our defensive line problems adequately in the draft with Bowlen in the owners chair.

It was the early '70's the last time Denver had a feared defensive line. It's not a priority under this owner and never has been.

Spider
04-29-2011, 07:45 PM
As Harry Truman said, "the buck stops here". It doesn't matter if he signs off on decisions or has his personal hand in it...bottom line is; we can't or won't address our defensive line problems adequately in the draft with Bowlen in the owners chair.

It was the early '70's the last time Denver had a feared defensive line. It's not a priority under this owner and never has been.

Yeah you caught Bowlen .....good detective work Nancy drew ......go have some ice cream and write about your great work in a blog ......

DarkHorse
04-29-2011, 07:46 PM
As Harry Truman said, "the buck stops here". It doesn't matter if he signs off on decisions or has his personal hand in it...bottom line is; we can't or won't address our defensive line problems adequately in the draft with Bowlen in the owners chair.

It was the early '70's the last time Denver had a feared defensive line. It's not a priority under this owner and never has been.

So are you saying that during Bowlens ownership period that we, as a team, have NEVER tried to address our line? We've NEVER drafted a d-lineman in Bowlens ownership history?

Because - that's exactly what you are saying.

Unless you're saying that yes we have drafted there but we've never gotten a "hit" doing so. And that's Bowlens fault. Huh?

BroncoInSkinland
04-29-2011, 08:01 PM
As Harry Truman said, "the buck stops here". It doesn't matter if he signs off on decisions or has his personal hand in it...bottom line is; we can't or won't address our defensive line problems adequately in the draft with Bowlen in the owners chair.

It was the early '70's the last time Denver had a feared defensive line. It's not a priority under this owner and never has been.

Ok, fine then we are in agreement that Bowlen is not directly involved, and on to the argument that I suggested of a trickle down effect regarding Bowlens selection of coaches and possibly some general direction from the owner regarding his feel of our areas of need. I don 't disagree that we have systematically ignored our d-line for years, and I bet you would have a real hard time finding a single point at which I didn't suggest that we needed to focus some serious attention there.

I am still hopeful that Fox being a defense minded coach can find some capable line help once the strike situation is resolved. If he can't these picks are going to look stupid until they get to another team where their skills may be of use. as it stands these guys will do nothing for us until we can put pressure on the QB with our front four, and I bet you and I are in full agreement on that point.

Specifics of the coming year aside, to address your large point, yes while Bowlen has been in charge there has been a noticable, disturbing trend toward ignoring and neglecting the d-line. It probably won't change any time soon, but I will be there every year hoping that we take the biggest, ugliest, meanest mo-fo possible that will put a hurting on the opposing QB even though it may be in vain. Maybe we will get lucky in FA or with a 6th round flyer here or there.

If you are arguing that you want another owner, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. Bowlen for all his faults is in my opinion one of the best owners in sports. He tries to give the fans what they want. A quailty product on the field that provides excitement and remains competitive year in and year out. He stays out of the way of the football guys once he puts them in place, but he is involved in that he is directly financially tied to the success of the team, and as a result is more motivated than many of the "hobby" owners for whom the NFL is a lark and not a primary source of income.

He has succeeded far more than he has failed as well, the debacles of the past three years are just fresher in our memories. While I think he might have acted a bit hastily in removing Shanny, and am thoroughly convinced that he had absolutely no form of plan in place on how to deal with gutting the leadership of the franchise, I am not ready to grab the spitting cobras and cacti just yet.

Hulamau
04-29-2011, 08:05 PM
Its obvious that this board thinks much more highly of Paea and Austin than our decision makers. I'm not sure who is right or wrong, but this idea that there is some bias against DT is just stupid. They didn't like the players, so they drafted someone else.

I don't have a problem with it. If they managed to grab an impact offensive linemen to replace Harris and a Safety to fix the BIGGEST position of need.... then I'm all for it. There is no point in taking a DT just because that's what you need. They have to be a player.

For all the surprise of not grabbing one of the guys we all had pegged, I agree here totally.

Thought they would grab one too, but with all the holes we have top to bottom they obviously made a command decision up front to go with the BPA starting with Von, and as Fox said last night, he was going to continue that BPA at each pick no exception, regardless of perceived need.

Fox also went out of his way to insist they can address the Dline in FA too if need be, implying that if the DTs left where they pick are not the BPA on their board at the time, they don't get picked!

Can't argue with that as long as they DO have a plan to solidify the DT spot, even if short term with skilled and ready to play Vets in FA.

And honestly, can anyone here imagine that Fox and Allen don't feel very confident that they will NOT be starting the season with just Vickerson in the trenches?!~ No doubt they have it covered.

Lets see what happens tomorrow AND in FA and then discuss where we are, taking to heart that no way are we going to fix everything this year!

The guys we got all look like real players and also at positions of need.

Irving I'm the least familiar with but preliminary reading seems he has some skill and upside.

We DID just improve the team considerably.. Suggest no wrist slitting just yet! :)

BroncoInferno
04-29-2011, 08:17 PM
Damn, footsteps conclusively getting his ass kicked in this thread. Someone wave this one off. Of course, he's so arrogant he'll pretend he won anyway Hilarious!

Dendave
04-29-2011, 09:04 PM
Fox: "We've got guys on our team now (at DT) that can start...There is still some depth at the end of the draft. We'll look at that."

BroncoInferno
04-29-2011, 09:05 PM
Fox: "We've got guys on our team now (at DT) that can start...There is still some depth at the end of the draft. We'll look at that."

I guess he likes Vickerson and Fields better than the rest of us.

mhgaffney
04-29-2011, 09:53 PM
I take it you have no answer to the question either then.

Patience. Wait.

Archer81
04-29-2011, 09:56 PM
As Harry Truman said, "the buck stops here". It doesn't matter if he signs off on decisions or has his personal hand in it...bottom line is; we can't or won't address our defensive line problems adequately in the draft with Bowlen in the owners chair.

It was the early '70's the last time Denver had a feared defensive line. It's not a priority under this owner and never has been.


Not to be a prick...

But Denver had its greatest stretch of success as a franchise under Bowlen. If you hate what the team is doing that much, why continue watching them? Get a hobby. Learn how to channel your douchiness into constructive things, like efficient sand removal from the vagina in your forehead.


:Broncos:

DivineLegion
04-29-2011, 10:26 PM
I guess he likes Vickerson and Fields better than the rest of us.

Don't forget McBean who is probably better off at DT in the 4-3.

broncosteven
04-30-2011, 11:04 AM
Such as?

Ummmm....Implementing new offensive and defensive schemes during a lockout year.

Deciding which QB to start. Who to sign in FA among others.

Cito Pelon
04-30-2011, 11:47 AM
DT draft picks since Bowlen became owner:

1984 - Scott Garnett, round 8
1985 - Dallas Cameron, round 7
1986 - Tony Colorito, round 5
1987 - none
1988 - Ted Gregory, 1st round. Gerald Perry, 2nd round. Johnny Carter, 12th round
1989 - Darrell Hamilton, 3rd round. Anthony Butts, 10th round
1990 - none
1991 - Keith Traylor, 3rd round. Don Gibson, 9th round
1992 - Shane Dronett, 2nd round (good pick). Chuck Johnson, sixth round. Jim Johnson, 7th round
1993 - none
1994 - none
1995 - none
1996 - Mark Campbell, round 3
1997 - Trevor Pryce, round 1
1998 - none
1999 - Montae Reagor, round 2
2000 - Jerry Johnson, round 4
2001 - none
2002 - Monsanto Pope, round 7
2003 - Nick Eason, round 4
2004 - none
2005 - none
2006 - none
2007 - Marcus Thomas, round 4
2008 - Carlton Powell, 5th round
2009 - none
2010 - none
2011 - none so far.

Make up your own mind how that has worked out over the years.

broncosteven
04-30-2011, 12:09 PM
DT draft picks since Bowlen became owner:

1984 - Scott Garnett, round 8
1985 - Dallas Cameron, round 7
1986 - Tony Colorito, round 5
1987 - none
1988 - Ted Gregory, 1st round. Gerald Perry, 2nd round. Johnny Carter, 12th round
1989 - Darrell Hamilton, 3rd round. Anthony Butts, 10th round
1990 - none
1991 - Keith Traylor, 3rd round. Don Gibson, 9th round
1992 - Shane Dronett, 2nd round (good pick). Chuck Johnson, sixth round. Jim Johnson, 7th round
1993 - none
1994 - none
1995 - none
1996 - Mark Campbell, round 3
1997 - Trevor Pryce, round 1
1998 - none
1999 - Montae Reagor, round 2
2000 - Jerry Johnson, round 4
2001 - none
2002 - Monsanto Pope, round 7
2003 - Nick Eason, round 4
2004 - none
2005 - none
2006 - none
2007 - Marcus Thomas, round 4
2008 - Carlton Powell, 5th round
2009 - none
2010 - none
2011 - none so far.

Make up your own mind how that has worked out over the years.

Traylor was a stud, our DL play has gone downhill ever since he left.

BroncoBuff
04-30-2011, 12:21 PM
Bowlen cant even find his pants.

Yeah, my guess is Bowlen has zero input.

I say re-sign Ryan Harris and Marcus Thomas.


Cito you forgot Andre Townsend in 1985.

bendog
04-30-2011, 12:25 PM
<img src="http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=820085863231&id=6e7bba5d7987dac3efb14dead6be108e&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.killchrissy.com%2fimages%2fsu icide.jpg">

HAT
04-30-2011, 12:44 PM
I'm still trying to figure out what the Giants & Bears taking Austin & Paea at 52 & 53 has to do with anything.

OP has mentioned this several times in several threads as if it means something. Who the **** cares? You have no idea if they take them at 45 or 46, no? Or if Denver doesn't take them at 52/53. Or if Denver doesn't take Jenkins at 45/46 if he was still available. That's what draft boards are for.

Haven't you been arguing for months Peterson over Dareus in the first? Why BPA over need in one round but not another? Denver had Moore & Franklin rated ahead of Paea & Austin, simple as that. Doesn't matter if it was talent or if it was injury concerns (Paea) or character concerns (Austin)

And OBTW.....

What we do know for a fact, is that when we think of the Ravens or Steelers what comes to mind is big, nasty and physical play.

Negative ghostrider....What comes to mind are Ray Lewis, Terrell Suggs, Ed Reed, James Harrison, James Farrior &Troy Polamalu. You know, play-makers at LB and ball hawking safeties. Not to mention strong run games. And you're upset that Denver went OLB/FS/OT/ILB/SS with their first 5 picks? Mind boggling.

This is seriously one of the jack assiest threads I've seen here in awhile. No small feat with some of the garbage that 0608 and se7ven have posted.

HAT
04-30-2011, 01:09 PM
Also footsteps, since you keep mentioning other teams.....

Would you say that Belichick knows what's up when it comes to the draft?

They invested a 2nd & 4th last year in Gronk & Hernandez, and just came back with Lee Smith at TE in the 5th. Why? Had him ranked higher than anyone else available.

Cito Pelon
05-01-2011, 08:51 AM
Yeah, my guess is Bowlen has zero input.

I say re-sign Ryan Harris and Marcus Thomas.


Cito you forgot Andre Townsend in 1985.

Dang it! I knew I'd make one crucial omission that could have really turned the tide to make it all look better! :wiggle:

HAT
05-02-2011, 01:34 PM
So....Has footsteps posted since this rant or did he chuck his computer out the window in frustration?

DrFate
05-02-2011, 01:35 PM
So....Has footsteps posted since this rant or did he chuck his computer out the window in frustration?

with any luck - the latter...

Kaylore
05-02-2011, 01:42 PM
with any luck - the latter...

:thumbsup:

bronco militia
05-02-2011, 01:49 PM
Gerrald Perry was a LT (1988)..

keith traylor was drafted as a LB...I think the chorfs turned him into a DT.

worm
05-02-2011, 02:04 PM
Gerrald Perry was a LT (1988)..

keith traylor was drafted as a LB...I think the chorfs turned him into a DT.

Luckily for him (and the Broncos), IHOP turned him into a DT.

worm
05-02-2011, 02:31 PM
In all the conspiracy theories that 2011 has yielded here at the Mane, headlined by MacGruder's ramblings, his bazillon links for us to read and, of course, his dad's PNW peyote trips.....this 'theory' by Footsteps is my favorite.

If you listen to Footsteps...due to his recent stadium tour and his additional Inspector Gadget sleuthing, he has uncovered that Bowlen is a broke man with Alzheimers who has secretly instructed the last four management groups of his football team to not select DTs high in the draft for some purpose that will be reveled to us all at a later time.

Its all so clear!!!

Cito Pelon
05-02-2011, 02:57 PM
So....Has footsteps posted since this rant or did he chuck his computer out the window in frustration?

Actually, 'steps stood on this post and thought maybe somebody would pay attention. It's an attention-getter if you have a brain in your head:

DT draft picks since Bowlen became owner:

1984 - Scott Garnett, round 8
1985 - Dallas Cameron, round 7
1986 - Tony Colorito, round 5
1987 - none
1988 - Ted Gregory, 1st round. Gerald Perry, 2nd round. Johnny Carter, 12th round
1989 - Darrell Hamilton, 3rd round. Anthony Butts, 10th round
1990 - none
1991 - Keith Traylor, 3rd round. Don Gibson, 9th round
1992 - Shane Dronett, 2nd round (good pick). Chuck Johnson, sixth round. Jim Johnson, 7th round
1993 - none
1994 - none
1995 - none
1996 - Mark Campbell, round 3
1997 - Trevor Pryce, round 1
1998 - none
1999 - Montae Reagor, round 2
2000 - Jerry Johnson, round 4
2001 - none
2002 - Monsanto Pope, round 7
2003 - Nick Eason, round 4
2004 - none
2005 - none
2006 - none
2007 - Marcus Thomas, round 4
2008 - Carlton Powell, 5th round
2009 - none
2010 - none
2011 - none so far.

Please, make a smartass comment about that.

BroncoBuff
05-02-2011, 03:03 PM
List is looking good now, Beemer man (pssst, you forgot Paul Toviessi!)

I can't stop thinking about whether Elvis & Von can beat Rulon & Karl's sack totals. I love sacks, love 'em, love 'em.

bowtown
05-02-2011, 03:05 PM
And Pryce was drafted when? Oh right...in the first round, and as soon as he wanted to get paid, he was gone.

Bowlen likes other team's castoffs at the DT spot for some reason. Run down the list of them in your mind...when's the last time this team drafted a stud in the d-line?

It was Trevor Pryce...14 years ago.

Elvis was drafted as a Dlineman, will be playing there this year, and just got paid.

Cito Pelon
05-02-2011, 03:10 PM
List is looking good now, Beemer man (pssst, you forgot Paul Toviessi!)

I can't stop thinking about whether Elvis & Von can beat Rulon & Karl's sack totals. I love sacks, love 'em, love 'em.

DT's is the point, not DE's. Don't hijack the thread, Buff

Cito Pelon
05-02-2011, 03:12 PM
Elvis was drafted as a Dlineman, will be playing there this year, and just got paid.

Elvis was a DE, not a DT.

This thread is about DT's. I thought that was pretty clear from the get go.

HAT
05-02-2011, 03:13 PM
Actually, 'steps stood on this post and thought maybe somebody would pay attention. It's an attention-getter if you have a brain in your head:

DT draft picks since Bowlen became owner:

1984 - Scott Garnett, round 8
1985 - Dallas Cameron, round 7
1986 - Tony Colorito, round 5
1987 - none
1988 - Ted Gregory, 1st round. Gerald Perry, 2nd round. Johnny Carter, 12th round
1989 - Darrell Hamilton, 3rd round. Anthony Butts, 10th round
1990 - none
1991 - Keith Traylor, 3rd round. Don Gibson, 9th round
1992 - Shane Dronett, 2nd round (good pick). Chuck Johnson, sixth round. Jim Johnson, 7th round
1993 - none
1994 - none
1995 - none
1996 - Mark Campbell, round 3
1997 - Trevor Pryce, round 1
1998 - none
1999 - Montae Reagor, round 2
2000 - Jerry Johnson, round 4
2001 - none
2002 - Monsanto Pope, round 7
2003 - Nick Eason, round 4
2004 - none
2005 - none
2006 - none
2007 - Marcus Thomas, round 4
2008 - Carlton Powell, 5th round
2009 - none
2010 - none
2011 - none so far.

Please, make a smartass comment about that.

Ok....Tony Colorito was the man. Plus, his last name was cool.

PS. He didn't stand stand on ****. He bailed out on the thread because he realized how stupid the premise is.