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Requiem
04-24-2011, 03:53 PM
I've always enjoyed PFW's extensive coverage of the draft. Here is a link to their rankings. (http://www.profootballweekly.com/prospects/rankings/)

Great in-depth analysis of players with their profiles, even has wonderlic scores, etc.

I couldn't find the exact link to their grading system, but I believe this is the cliff notes version.

PFW Grading System
9.0 A once-in-a-lifetime player (e.g. John Elway, Jim Brown or Lawrence Taylor).
8.00-8.99 Perennial All-Pro (e.g., Bruce Matthews).
7.50-7.99 Future All-Pro.
7.00-7.49 Should become a Pro Bowl-caliber player.
6.50-6.99 Surefire first-rounder who, aside from a quarterback, should contribute as a rookie.
6.00-6.49 Has a good chance to go in the first round and be a starter by his second season.

ICON
04-24-2011, 04:01 PM
tHANK'S

OBF1
04-24-2011, 04:04 PM
Top 10

1. OLB-DE Von Miller Texas A&M 8.50 6-2 5/8 246 4.49
2. WR A.J. Green Georgia 8.20 6-3 5/8 211 4.49
3. CB Patrick Peterson LSU 8.00 6-0 1/4 219 4.34
4. WR Julio Jones Alabama 7.00 6-2 3/4 220 4.39
5. DT-DE Marcell Dareus Alabama 6.60 6-3 1/8 319 4.93
6. DE Robert Quinn North Carolina 6.55 6-4 264 4.69
7. CB Prince Amukamara Nebraska 6.40 6-0 206 4.43
8. QB Blaine Gabbert Missouri 6.35 6-4 3/8 234 4.63
9. OT Tyron Smith USC 6.30 6-5 307 4.98
10. DE Aldon Smith Missouri 6.30 6-4 1/4 263 4.74


Does not bode well for Dareus IMO

TheReverend
04-24-2011, 04:42 PM
I think a LITTLE lower of Miller and Green, but are top 3 in my book and I agree the two of them are special talents.

TheReverend
04-24-2011, 04:45 PM
Really strong write ups of the prospects.

On Peterson. I bolded the only one I PERSONALLY saw, and the majority of the rest seem subjective. Vehemently disagree with losing awareness with back to the ball. I posted one clip of the best no look tip I've ever seen.

Negatives: Is heavy-boned and thick-bodied and could struggle matching up with elite quickness. Has a tendency to freelance and can play with more discipline — gives up some big plays. Overaggressive jumping routes in short zones and will leave his feet too much as a tackler. Takes some bad angles. Often uses a shuffle technique instead of pedaling and tends to rise in his pedal — footwork is not clean in transition. Loses awareness with his back to the ball.

TheReverend
04-24-2011, 04:46 PM
Whoa, Fairley at FIFTEEN?!

cmhargrove
04-24-2011, 04:48 PM
Any way to look at their grading over the past couple years and see how accurate their "system" was?

epicSocialism4tw
04-24-2011, 04:52 PM
Really strong write ups of the prospects.

On Peterson. I bolded the only one I PERSONALLY saw, and the majority of the rest seem subjective. Vehemently disagree with losing awareness with back to the ball. I posted one clip of the best no look tip I've ever seen.

Negatives: Is heavy-boned and thick-bodied and could struggle matching up with elite quickness. Has a tendency to freelance and can play with more discipline gives up some big plays. Overaggressive jumping routes in short zones and will leave his feet too much as a tackler. Takes some bad angles. Often uses a shuffle technique instead of pedaling and tends to rise in his pedal footwork is not clean in transition. Loses awareness with his back to the ball.

This is pretty much the exact stuff I said a couple of months ago about Peterson when I said that he was rigid through the hips and didnt transition well from his backpedal.

It was fun getting raked over the coals for that, because I knew that I saw what I saw. ;D

TheReverend
04-24-2011, 05:07 PM
Ran this just to check their ratings against my work. PFW ratings of my OM mock draft:

Miller 8.5
Ponder 5.5
Carpenter 5.78
ODowd 5.05 (..........)
Wright 5.38
Williams 5.24
Royster 5.1
Thornton 5.25
Whalen 5.19

Boren 5.05
Ogbu 4.02

TheReverend
04-24-2011, 05:08 PM
This is pretty much the exact stuff I said a couple of months ago about Peterson when I said that he was rigid through the hips and didnt transition well from his backpedal.

It was fun getting raked over the coals for that, because I knew that I saw what I saw. ;D

Not really. You said he has "stiff hips". This also doesn't say that and they infer a lot from little evidence. Which is fine. Thorough is a good thing.

epicSocialism4tw
04-24-2011, 05:13 PM
Not really. You said he has "stiff hips". This also doesn't say that and they infer a lot from little evidence. Which is fine. Thorough is a good thing.

I said that he was rigid through his hips and wasnt fluid in transition. People were comparing him to Champ Bailey, which wasnt a good comparison. He's more like Charles Woodson. Bailey is great because he is so smart and such an unbelievable athlete. His hips are liquid. Petersons are rigid. It is what it is.

TheReverend
04-24-2011, 05:15 PM
I said that he was rigid through his hips and wasnt fluid in transition. People were comparing him to Champ Bailey, which wasnt a good comparison. He's more like Charles Woodson. Bailey is great because he is so smart and such an unbelievable athlete. His hips are liquid. Petersons are rigid. It is what it is.

Great point. Wouldn't that be terrible if he ended up like Charles Woodson.

ROY, DPOY, 6 all pros and still killing it at 34 years old.

epicSocialism4tw
04-24-2011, 05:23 PM
Great point. Wouldn't that be terrible if he ended up like Charles Woodson.

ROY, DPOY, 6 all pros and still killing it at 34 years old.

I didnt say it was a bad thing.

I just said that people were wrong in comparing him to Champ Bailey.

elsid13
04-24-2011, 05:32 PM
This is pretty much the exact stuff I said a couple of months ago about Peterson when I said that he was rigid through the hips and didnt transition well from his backpedal.

It was fun getting raked over the coals for that, because I knew that I saw what I saw. ;D

That doesn't mean he has "stiff" hips, that means he has bad techinque for the NFL.

eddie mac
04-24-2011, 05:34 PM
I drafted 4 of their top 34 ranked players

Aldon Smith 6.30-1st rd-17
Mark Ingram 6.21-1st rd-28
Danny Watkins 5.97-2nd rd-60
Marvin Austin 5.87-2nd rd-33

The rest

Marcus Gilbert 5.57-3rd rd-92
Edmond Gates 5.47-4th rd-126
Brandon Burton 5.36-3rd rd-74
Kealoha Pilares 5.35 (Got him as a UDFA)
Chris Hairston 5.33-5th rd-159
Karl Klug 5.31 (UDFA)


And 10 of their top 150

TJ Yates 5.24 (UDFA)
Brandon Bair 5.23-6th rd-193
Scott Tolzein 5.20 (UDFA)
Jonathan Nelson 5.20 (UDFA)
Derrell Smith 5.17 (UDFA)
Jeff Tarpinian 5.13 (UDFA)
Colin Baxter 5.09 (UDFA)
Pep Levingston 5.05 (UDFA)

epicSocialism4tw
04-24-2011, 05:45 PM
That doesn't mean he has "stiff" hips, that means he has bad techinque for the NFL.

He has stiff hips on video. Whether you want to parse words or not, it is the truth.

elsid13
04-24-2011, 05:55 PM
He has stiff hips on video. Whether you want to parse words or not, it is the truth.

There is major difference in poor techinque and physically unable to turn fluidity. Peterson has no physical issue at all, and is clean draft choice. He is sloppy with his techinque at times because he so far above his competition in college he can get away with it.

ICON
04-24-2011, 06:02 PM
He has stiff hips on video. Whether you want to parse words or not, it is the truth.LOLROFL!Ha!:spit:

epicSocialism4tw
04-24-2011, 06:05 PM
There is major difference in poor techinque and physically unable to turn fluidity. Peterson has no physical issue at all, and is clean draft choice. He is sloppy with his techinque at times because he so far above his competition in college he can get away with it.

Tell us again about Sam Bradford.

DarkHorse
04-24-2011, 06:52 PM
Any way to look at their grading over the past couple years and see how accurate their "system" was?

Great question!


Anyone?

Dedhed
04-24-2011, 07:38 PM
Any way to look at their grading over the past couple years and see how accurate their "system" was?

http://www.profootballweekly.com/2010/04/20/pfw-rates-top-prospects-regardless-of-position

CEH
04-24-2011, 07:47 PM
Anyone have what they ranked Suh and McCoy last year?

Found it duh from above

1. DT 93 Gerald McCoy Oklahoma 7.50 6041 295 5.06 Jr., DE
2. DT 93 Ndamukong Suh Nebraska 7.30 6037 307 5.09 X, NT

SpringStein
04-24-2011, 07:52 PM
McCoy - 7.5
Suh - 7.3

CEH
04-24-2011, 07:58 PM
McCoy - 7.5
Suh - 7.3

Thanks. Just for fun

12. QB 7 Jimmy Clausen Notre Dame 6.40 6025 222 4.85e Jr., X

KevinJames
04-24-2011, 08:14 PM
heres my most recent dream without trades mock according to PFW grading


(1st)02.CB Patrick Peterson 8.25.
(2nd)36.DT Marvin Austin 5.87
(2nd)46.ILB Martez Wilson 5.55
(3rd)67.RB Taiwan Jones 5.37
(6th)186.SS Ahmad Black 5.35
(6th)189.DT Ian Williams 5.21
(7th)247.LB/RB Doug Houg 5.30

TheReverend
04-24-2011, 08:22 PM
heres my most recent dream without trades mock according to PFW grading


(1st)02.CB Patrick Peterson 8.25.
(2nd)36.DT Marvin Austin 5.87
(2nd)46.ILB Martez Wilson 5.55
(3rd)67.RB Taiwan Jones 5.37
(6th)186.SS Ahmad Black 5.35
(6th)189.DT Ian Williams 5.21
(7th)247.LB/RB Doug Houg 5.30

Love first three picks

Jesterhole
04-24-2011, 09:08 PM
Here is a lil gem of analysis of Robert Quinn:

"Is a bit of a country bumpkin and could endure an adjustment period adapting to the bright lights"

TerrElway
04-24-2011, 09:45 PM
That'd be great. Two stud corners who will make little difference because there is STILL no pass rush. I'm sorry but everyone clamoring for peterson are misguided. Everyone says the oline is the key to a team's success. I would posit that the dline holds the true key to success. Peterson is a rare talent but does not fill denver's greatest need at this time. I will be sorely disappointed if they take him at 2.

OrangeSe7en
04-24-2011, 09:53 PM
Their scoring system is warped.

BowlenBall
04-24-2011, 09:56 PM
Have you noticed that they've got all Wonderlic scores for combine attendees? Haven't seen that anywhere else....

TheReverend
04-24-2011, 10:43 PM
That'd be great. Two stud corners who will make little difference because there is STILL no pass rush. I'm sorry but everyone clamoring for peterson are misguided. Everyone says the oline is the key to a team's success. I would posit that the dline holds the true key to success. Peterson is a rare talent but does not fill denver's greatest need at this time. I will be sorely disappointed if they take him at 2.

Just so I can be clear on your position:

The #2 selection is the end all be all of the off season and that the people who want to take the BPA approach towards a once in a lifetime (hopefully) draft slot are the ones that are misguided?

epicSocialism4tw
04-24-2011, 10:59 PM
Just so I can be clear on your position:

The #2 selection is the end all be all of the off season and that the people who want to take the BPA approach towards a once in a lifetime (hopefully) draft slot are the ones that are misguided?

Peterson is not a "once in a lifetime" player, TheReverend.

Champ Bailey is a "once in a lifetime" player.

Peterson may very well be Lenny Walls. You just dont know at this point. He'd be doing well for himself if he came into the leage and became Darrent Williams.

*WARHORSE*
04-24-2011, 11:25 PM
Von Miller is the pick accordingly, especially due to Fox's defense.


The sam LBer is going to rush the passer, and Miller can not only do that in the mold of Derrick Thomas, but he can put his hand in the dirt.

He has so much speed and quickness, he has been able to simply sidestep some OTs and pound the QB.

How many athletes do we see come along with that type of ability?


Not too many.

I will not be surprised to see Miller taken at 2.

NUB
04-24-2011, 11:36 PM
I'm totally pro-Miller or Peterson, but it's not because of these grades. It's because "Top-10 Defensive Lineman" are routinely mega busts even if they look good across the board -- and some of these guys, like Fairley, have glaring character flaws. I simply do not think you have to go that high with a defensive lineman to have an effective force, though, and if there was ever a draft to scoop up a lineman late it would be this one.

TheReverend
04-24-2011, 11:41 PM
Peterson is not a "once in a lifetime" player, TheReverend.

Champ Bailey is a "once in a lifetime" player.

Peterson may very well be Lenny Walls. You just dont know at this point. He'd be doing well for himself if he came into the leage and became Darrent Williams.

Did you type that with a straight face...?

*WARHORSE*
04-25-2011, 12:03 AM
I'm totally pro-Miller or Peterson, but it's not because of these grades. It's because "Top-10 Defensive Lineman" are routinely mega busts even if they look good across the board -- and some of these guys, like Fairley, have glaring character flaws. I simply do not think you have to go that high with a defensive lineman to have an effective force, though, and if there was ever a draft to scoop up a lineman late it would be this one.


I think Fairley is going to be a dominant force if he continues to get stronger.

He is unbelievable athletically for his size.


Its easy to see why Xanders drools over him vs Dareus or Bowers.

MagicHef
04-25-2011, 12:48 AM
I am completely pro-bpa, and I think that is Miller. I would be far from disappointed if the pick was Peterson, though. I would be pretty disappointed if it was Dareus.

Honestly, I would rather they pick Green than Dareus.

jhns
04-25-2011, 07:16 AM
McCoy - 7.5
Suh - 7.3

In other words, they don't actually watch football.

montrose
04-25-2011, 07:32 AM
That'd be great. Two stud corners who will make little difference because there is STILL no pass rush. I'm sorry but everyone clamoring for peterson are misguided. Everyone says the oline is the key to a team's success. I would posit that the dline holds the true key to success. Peterson is a rare talent but does not fill denver's greatest need at this time. I will be sorely disappointed if they take him at 2.

I have to agree with Rev that I think it's a mistake to take the #2 pick - where you're looking for a building block to help rebuild the franchise around for the next 10 years or so - and not take the best player instead trying to fill a need.

Now if the Broncos evaluations tell them Dareus, Fairley, Bowers or whomever is the best player at that spot than go ahead and take them... but I think it would be a massive mistake for the Broncos to select one of these guys instead of Peterson or Miller just because the Broncos have a need at DT right now (again, assuming the Broncos themselves believe - as many experts do - that Peterson and Miller are the elite of the draft).

Beantown Bronco
04-25-2011, 07:34 AM
He has stiff hips on video. Whether you want to parse words or not, it is the truth.

"Well if anyone would know you were pulling your hips out early it'd be Annie."

BroncoInferno
04-25-2011, 07:39 AM
I hope the rest of the league agrees that Fairley is the 15th best prospect. My ultimate dream scenario is that we get Miller at #2, then Fairley slips down to around pick #17 or #18 (a la Randy Moss) thanks to the unsubstantiated Swift Boat-style smear campaign against him, we trade our two #2s to get back into the 1st and select him. Doom, Miller, and Fairley all in the same front seven? We wouldn't have to worry about our pass rush for the next 8-10 years.

Traveler
04-25-2011, 08:04 AM
heres my most recent dream without trades mock according to PFW grading


(1st)02.CB Patrick Peterson 8.25.
(2nd)36.DT Marvin Austin 5.87
(2nd)46.ILB Martez Wilson 5.55
(3rd)67.RB Taiwan Jones 5.37
(6th)186.SS Ahmad Black 5.35
(6th)189.DT Ian Williams 5.21
(7th)247.LB/RB Doug Houg 5.30

Not bad at all. Only change I'd make is replacing Ian Williams with Owen Marecic. Fox's offense requires an old school type FB.

cmhargrove
04-25-2011, 08:29 AM
I hope the rest of the league agrees that Fairley is the 15th best prospect. My ultimate dream scenario is that we get Miller at #2, then Fairley slips down to around pick #17 or #18 (a la Randy Moss) thanks to the unsubstantiated Swift Boat-style smear campaign against him, we trade our two #2s to get back into the 1st and select him. Doom, Miller, and Fairley all in the same front seven? We wouldn't have to worry about our pass rush for the next 8-10 years.

Wow, i'd take that scenario. Sign me up.

broncogary
04-25-2011, 08:36 AM
Not bad at all. Only change I'd make is replacing Ian Williams with Owen Marecic. Fox's offense requires an old school type FB.

And it looks like Vonta Leach is going to be available in FA, if there is one.

Drek
04-25-2011, 08:54 AM
heres my most recent dream without trades mock according to PFW grading


(1st)02.CB Patrick Peterson 8.25.
(2nd)36.DT Marvin Austin 5.87
(2nd)46.ILB Martez Wilson 5.55
(3rd)67.RB Taiwan Jones 5.37
(6th)186.SS Ahmad Black 5.35
(6th)189.DT Ian Williams 5.21
(7th)247.LB/RB Doug Houg 5.30

I like it but I'd prefer a few changes. Most notably:
Austin > Stephen Paea
Taiwan Jones > Drake Nevis
Ian Williams > Alex Green

My OM mock draft for the Rams:
Julio Jones, WR - 7.00
Rodney Hudson, OG/C - 5.50
Drake Nevis, DT - 5.32
Ross Homan, OLB - 5.37
Niles Paul, WR - 5.38
Alex Green, RB - 5.26
Brian Rolle, OLB - 5.17
Mark LeGree, S - 5.12

UDFA:
Diondre Borel, QB/ATH, not on list
Armando Allen, RB, ND - 4.85
Byron Bell, OG-OT, New Mexico-4.94
Rich Lapham, OT, BC - 4.86
John Graves, DT, VaTech - 5.12
Anthony Gaitor, CB, FIU - 5.19

ICON
04-25-2011, 08:58 AM
I hope the rest of the league agrees that Fairley is the 15th best prospect. My ultimate dream scenario is that we get Miller at #2, then Fairley slips down to around pick #17 or #18 (a la Randy Moss) thanks to the unsubstantiated Swift Boat-style smear campaign against him, we trade our two #2s to get back into the 1st and select him. Doom, Miller, and Fairley all in the same front seven? We wouldn't have to worry about our pass rush for the next 8-10 years.

I'd hope If we get back in the frist round it's for one of these guy's. Muhammed Wilkerson - DL - Temple ,Stephen Paea - NT - Oregon State, Corey Liuget - DL - Illinois ,Cameron Heyward - DE - Ohio State

BroncoInferno
04-25-2011, 09:08 AM
I'd hope If we get back in the frist round it's for one of these guy's. Muhammed Wilkerson - DL - Temple ,Stephen Paea - NT - Oregon State, Corey Liuget - DL - Illinois ,Cameron Heyward - DE - Ohio State

Fairley's better than all, including Dareus. Don't buy into the Swift Boating that's going on with him. Much of it is unsubstantiated. Trust your eyes...the guy is an athletic freak for the position and has the prodcution to back it up.

HooptyHoops
04-25-2011, 09:29 AM
Fairley's better than all, including Dareus. Don't buy into the Swift Boating that's going on with him. Much of it is unsubstantiated. Trust your eyes...the guy is an athletic freak for the position and has the prodcution to back it up.

I totally agree...I was just talking to my bro about this....Fairley is just a plain freak of nature and has the stats to back it up......kinda the same story as Peterson.

ICON
04-25-2011, 09:54 AM
Fairley's better than all, including Dareus. Don't buy into the Swift Boating that's going on with him. Much of it is unsubstantiated. Trust your eyes...the guy is an athletic freak for the position and has the prodcution to back it up.

We have seen a lot of prospect like Nick Fairely, and the track record isnt very impressive.

Spending high picks on speed-based pass rushing DT's is generally a sucker bet, and Fairley's not an exception. He might have one or two really good years of getting to the QB, if that, and then injuries or wear and tear will take away that pass rush like it's done for the others. The pass rush at DT, with exceedingly rare exception, never translates to the NFL well enough or long enough to be worth the high draft pick. I don't think he's got the strength to compensate once that first step isn't quite what it is now.

DT's who fit that profile have a high bust rate and usually have lousy longevity in today's game.

His fall has to do mainly with some perceived work ethic issues. And from what I've heard, he was never as high on NFL boards as people thought, so really he isn't falling at all, we're just becoming more aware of his true value.

ICON
04-25-2011, 09:59 AM
I totally agree...I was just talking to my bro about this....Fairley is just a plain freak of nature and has the stats to back it up......kinda the same story as Peterson.

DTs production cannot be defined by stats. So looking for sack totals or tackles or whatever then you're going to be disappointed.



Marcel Dareus , He is the type of guy that is going to command double teams every snap and maybe triple some plays.

What you want in a DT is a guy that can control gaps, occupy blockers, stuff the run and collapse the pocket. create a bunch of opportunities for his teammates.

BroncoInferno
04-25-2011, 10:07 AM
DTs production cannot be defined by stats. So looking for sack totals or tackles or whatever then you're going to be disappointed.



Marcel Dareus , He is the type of guy that is going to command double teams every snap and maybe triple some plays.

What you want in a DT is a guy that can control gaps, occupy blockers, stuff the run and collapse the pocket. create a bunch of opportunities for his teammates.

Fairley was more productive in one season than Dareus was in two. More solo tackles, more tackles for loss, more sacks this past season than Dareus had the last two COMBINED. Don't give me that garbage that production isn't important. It's guys like Dareus whose production doesn't quite match the physical ability who you have to worry about. Failey will be the better pro, just as he was the better collegian. FACT.

razorwire77
04-25-2011, 10:14 AM
I hope the rest of the league agrees that Fairley is the 15th best prospect. My ultimate dream scenario is that we get Miller at #2, then Fairley slips down to around pick #17 or #18 (a la Randy Moss) thanks to the unsubstantiated Swift Boat-style smear campaign against him, we trade our two #2s to get back into the 1st and select him. Doom, Miller, and Fairley all in the same front seven? We wouldn't have to worry about our pass rush for the next 8-10 years.

Absolute dream scenario to get both of them. Can't wait to see what happens. I agree that Fairley is going to slip, but no way he would slip past the Titans at 9 or Minnesota at 12.

Rabb
04-25-2011, 10:21 AM
trading our 2 #2 picks to get into the 1st to take Fairley would make me launch something through the wall

BroncoInferno
04-25-2011, 10:22 AM
trading our 2 #2 picks to get into the 1st to take Fairley would make me launch something through the wall

That's fine, but you would feel stupid for your reaction within 2 years when Fairley has established himself as a top DT.

LRtagger
04-25-2011, 10:30 AM
Failey will be the better pro, just as he was the better collegian. FACT.

It's a fact that Fairley will be a better pro?

Rabb
04-25-2011, 10:33 AM
That's fine, but you would feel stupid for your reaction within 2 years when Fairley has established himself as a top DT.

ok?

you're taking this a little personally there chief

I mean we could play this game all day, you would feel stupid if we traded 2 picks and he ended up being Jarvis Moss

Fairley is a nice player, I just don't think it's worth us giving up 2 2nd round picks to get him is all...but you know, it's more fun to draw lines in the sand around here

BroncoInferno
04-25-2011, 10:42 AM
ok?

you're taking this a little personally there chief

I mean we could play this game all day, you would feel stupid if we traded 2 picks and he ended up being Jarvis Moss

Fairley is a nice player, I just don't think it's worth us giving up 2 2nd round picks to get him is all...but you know, it's more fun to draw lines in the sand around here

Not taking it personally, I just don't get what evidence people are using for saying Fairley's going to be a bust. He has poor character, they say. Well, what are some examples? I've never heard any good ones. They say he takes plays off? Examples? His production was as good as it gets playing one of the toughest schedules out there. How many plays could he really be taking off? To me, you see a guy like Fairley with top of the line physical ability AND top notch production, and it's a no-brainer. The busts from the past like Gerrard Warren and Robertson had tantalizing physical gifts but their production, while by no means bad, still did not match the physical ability. That's what bothers me about Dareus. He supposedly a safer pick than Fairley, but his production was nowhere near Fairley's. To me, THAT'S the big red flag....a guy who has the physical skill to dominate every week like Dareus, but who had pretty good but not elite production.

BroncoInferno
04-25-2011, 10:43 AM
It's a fact that Fairley will be a better pro?

I'm using a little hyperbole there, but I am pretty confident that will be the case.

Rabb
04-25-2011, 10:46 AM
Not taking it personally, I just don't get what evidence people are using for saying Fairley's going to be a bust. He has poor character, they say. Well, what are some examples? I've never heard any good ones. They say he takes plays off? Examples? His production was as good as it gets playing one of the toughest schedules out there. How many plays could he really be taking off? To me, you see a guy like Fairley with top of the line physical ability AND top notch production, and it's a no-brainer. The busts from the past like Gerrard Warren and Robertson had tantalizing physical gifts but their production, while by no means bad, still did not match the physical ability. That's what bothers me about Dareus. He supposedly a safer pick than Fairley, but his production was nowhere near Fairley's. To me, THAT'S the big red flag....a guy who has the physical skill to dominate every week like Dareus, but who had pretty good but not elite production.

please show me where I said any of that

BroncoInferno
04-25-2011, 10:50 AM
please show me where I said any of that

I'm basically addressing the general sentiment. If you don't believe any of that, that's fine.

underrated29
04-25-2011, 11:16 AM
I totally agree...I was just talking to my bro about this....Fairley is just a plain freak of nature and has the stats to back it up......kinda the same story as Peterson.



Does Peterson have the stats to back it up?

I will keep saying it, just because you are weigh a lot and are fast does not mean you are an amazing football player.

2KBack
04-25-2011, 11:26 AM
Does Peterson have the stats to back it up?

I will keep saying it, just because you are weigh a lot and are fast does not mean you are an amazing football player.

How do you propose to track DB stats that mean anything? INT's are unreliable, as are passes defensed, since they don't account for the player being avoided.

Peterson has awards out the wazoo though

underrated29
04-25-2011, 11:33 AM
How do you propose to track DB stats that mean anything? INT's are unreliable, as are passes defensed, since they don't account for the player being avoided.

Peterson has awards out the wazoo though


What awards does he have as a corner?

Beantown Bronco
04-25-2011, 11:35 AM
What awards does he have as a corner?

Please tell me this is a joke.

DrFate
04-25-2011, 11:36 AM
Hopefully these arguments will be over Thursday, as there will be 100% agreement that the first round was great for the Broncos

2KBack
04-25-2011, 11:37 AM
What awards does he have as a corner?

* 2010 First-Team Walter Camp All-American
* 2010 Thorpe Award Winner
* 2010 Bednarik Award Winner
* 2010 SEC Defensive Player of the Year
* 2010 Preseason All-American (TSN, Playboy, Athlon, Lindy's, Phil Steele)
* 2009 Second-Team All-America (TSN)
* 2009 First-Team All-SEC (ESPN)
* 2009 Second-Team All-SEC (AP, Coaches)

note- Stolen from Rev

Cito Pelon
04-25-2011, 11:39 AM
Top 10

1. OLB-DE Von Miller Texas A&M 8.50 6-2 5/8 246 4.49
2. WR A.J. Green Georgia 8.20 6-3 5/8 211 4.49
3. CB Patrick Peterson LSU 8.00 6-0 1/4 219 4.34
4. WR Julio Jones Alabama 7.00 6-2 3/4 220 4.39
5. DT-DE Marcell Dareus Alabama 6.60 6-3 1/8 319 4.93
6. DE Robert Quinn North Carolina 6.55 6-4 264 4.69
7. CB Prince Amukamara Nebraska 6.40 6-0 206 4.43
8. QB Blaine Gabbert Missouri 6.35 6-4 3/8 234 4.63
9. OT Tyron Smith USC 6.30 6-5 307 4.98
10. DE Aldon Smith Missouri 6.30 6-4 1/4 263 4.74


Does not bode well for Dareus IMO

Ah, Miller or Peterson at #2. They'll have great and long careers.

Dareus, I'm not so big about drafting a DT at #2. The bust rate for DT's that high is too big to ignore.

With a choice between Miller, Peterson, or Dareus I think the best bet is certainly Miller or Peterson. Just have to address DT later.

underrated29
04-25-2011, 11:52 AM
* 2010 First-Team Walter Camp All-American
* 2010 Thorpe Award Winner
* 2010 Bednarik Award Winner
* 2010 SEC Defensive Player of the Year
* 2010 Preseason All-American (TSN, Playboy, Athlon, Lindy's, Phil Steele)
* 2009 Second-Team All-America (TSN)
* 2009 First-Team All-SEC (ESPN)
* 2009 Second-Team All-SEC (AP, Coaches)

note- Stolen from Rev


I know what the obvious ones are but what are the the thorpe and bednarki and such?

Beantown Bronco
04-25-2011, 11:54 AM
I know what the obvious ones are but what are the the thorpe and bednarki and such?

talk about lazy

thorpe award = The Jim Thorpe Award, named in memory of multi-sport legend Jim Thorpe, has been awarded to the top defensive back in college football since 1986. It is voted on by the Jim Thorpe Association, an Oklahoma based organization.

bednarki = The Chuck Bednarik Award is presented annually to the defensive collegiate football player adjudged by the Maxwell Football Club to be the best in the United States. Voters for the Maxwell College Awards are NCAA Head College Football Coaches, members of the Maxwell Football Club & sportswriters and sportscasters from across the country

baja
04-25-2011, 12:35 PM
I wonder if Peterson has football instincts like this guy;

http://prod.static.steelers.clubs.nfl.com/assets/images/imported/PIT/photos/2010/05-May/2010_player_cards/Polamalu_Troy.jpg

baja
04-25-2011, 12:46 PM
If he does he might be more valuable free lancing from the safety position

TheElusiveKyleOrton
04-25-2011, 12:50 PM
Ah, Miller or Peterson at #2. They'll have great and long careers.

Dareus, I'm not so big about drafting a DT at #2. The bust rate for DT's that high is too big to ignore.

With a choice between Miller, Peterson, or Dareus I think the best bet is certainly Miller or Peterson. Just have to address DT later.

I would agree with you, but I am worried that Elway is all-too aware of the PR necessities for this team. I'm afraid we're going to end up with Dareus. And that's not a knock; I think he's a helluva player. I just think in five years we are going to wish we had either Miller or Peterson.

Everyone in this town wants front 7 help, it seems, and they'll be apoplectic until it happens.

Cito Pelon
04-25-2011, 01:27 PM
I would agree with you, but I am worried that Elway is all-too aware of the PR necessities for this team. I'm afraid we're going to end up with Dareus. And that's not a knock; I think he's a helluva player. I just think in five years we are going to wish we had either Miller or Peterson.

Everyone in this town wants front 7 help, it seems, and they'll be apoplectic until it happens.

Well, there will be a lot of complaining from fans no matter what happens. I bet they have it narrowed down to Peterson or Miller at #2.

They want an impact player at #2, and those are your two impact D players.

Trading down from #2 IMO is not gonna happen. There is no rookie wage scale in place, and that is the only reason a team would trade up to #2.

TheReverend
04-25-2011, 01:35 PM
Well, there will be a lot of complaining from fans no matter what happens. I bet they have it narrowed down to Peterson or Miller at #2.

They want an impact player at #2, and those are your two impact D players.

Trading down from #2 IMO is not gonna happen. There is no rookie wage scale in place, and that is the only reason a team would trade up to #2.

Miller is a terrific athlete with fantastic production. I used to be concerned about his bust potential, but I've warmed past that.

What worries me about Miller is his utilization here in Denver. He'd be a fantastic weapon, but Matt Jones was viewed the same way (quit freaking out, I know how different it is overall but you know what I mean). Quite frankly, I don't want to attempt jamming a square peg in a round hole anymore.

I want Peterson, Destroyer of Worlds.

epicSocialism4tw
04-25-2011, 02:00 PM
I'd hope If we get back in the frist round it's for one of these guy's. Muhammed Wilkerson - DL - Temple ,Stephen Paea - NT - Oregon State, Corey Liuget - DL - Illinois ,Cameron Heyward - DE - Ohio State

Its entirely possible that all of those guys except maybe one is gone by #25.

I expect a run on DL players from 10-25, because thats where the value is in this draft.

epicSocialism4tw
04-25-2011, 02:02 PM
I wonder if Peterson has football instincts like this guy;

http://prod.static.steelers.clubs.nfl.com/assets/images/imported/PIT/photos/2010/05-May/2010_player_cards/Polamalu_Troy.jpg

No.

epicSocialism4tw
04-25-2011, 02:03 PM
Miller is a terrific athlete with fantastic production. I used to be concerned about his bust potential, but I've warmed past that.

What worries me about Miller is his utilization here in Denver. He'd be a fantastic weapon, but Matt Jones was viewed the same way (quit freaking out, I know how different it is overall but you know what I mean). Quite frankly, I don't want to attempt jamming a square peg in a round hole anymore.

I want Peterson, Destroyer of Worlds.

There is no misfit for Miller. He's a perfect fit.

Peterson is less of a fit.

Cito Pelon
04-25-2011, 02:05 PM
Miller is a terrific athlete with fantastic production. I used to be concerned about his bust potential, but I've warmed past that.

What worries me about Miller is his utilization here in Denver. He'd be a fantastic weapon, but Matt Jones was viewed the same way (quit freaking out, I know how different it is overall but you know what I mean). Quite frankly, I don't want to attempt jamming a square peg in a round hole anymore.

I want Peterson, Destroyer of Worlds.

I can see how Miller has some question marks appended to him. So yeah, Peterson is the guy at #2.

TheReverend
04-25-2011, 02:14 PM
There is no misfit for Miller. He's a perfect fit.

Peterson is less of a fit.

:spit:

Cito Pelon
04-25-2011, 02:17 PM
There is no misfit for Miller. He's a perfect fit.

Peterson is less of a fit.

The big deal about Peterson is his return abilities. You can't pass on the next Deion Sanders. Sanders was a backbreaker to many a team, and Peterson has that kind of potential.

Beantown Bronco
04-25-2011, 02:21 PM
The big deal about Peterson is his return abilities. You can't pass on the next Deion Sanders. Sanders was a backbreaker to many a team, and Peterson has that kind of potential.

That strength will be largely neutered with the new kickoff rules and with 8 games a season at mile high. Having said that, he's still my pick even if he never returns a single kick.

TheReverend
04-25-2011, 02:24 PM
That strength will be largely neutered with the new kickoff rules and with 8 games a season at mile high. Having said that, he's still my pick even if he never returns a single kick.

^

I wouldnt personally put him back there unless it's a division or playoff game and we're down in the 2nd half.

MagicHef
04-25-2011, 02:41 PM
Miller is a terrific athlete with fantastic production. I used to be concerned about his bust potential, but I've warmed past that.

What worries me about Miller is his utilization here in Denver. He'd be a fantastic weapon, but Matt Jones was viewed the same way (quit freaking out, I know how different it is overall but you know what I mean). Quite frankly, I don't want to attempt jamming a square peg in a round hole anymore.

I want Peterson, Destroyer of Worlds.

I'm just assuming that if they take him at 2, their plan is more than "eh, he'd be a pretty good SAM."

epicSocialism4tw
04-25-2011, 02:44 PM
The big deal about Peterson is his return abilities. You can't pass on the next Deion Sanders. Sanders was a backbreaker to many a team, and Peterson has that kind of potential.

I'd much rather shore up the defensive front seven with a freak athlete linebacker with abilities that could force another offense to alter their game plan to address him than to add a second CB who returns punts sometimes too.

Cito Pelon
04-25-2011, 02:46 PM
That strength will be largely neutered with the new kickoff rules and with 8 games a season at mile high. Having said that, he's still my pick even if he never returns a single kick.

Good returners will always pay off, they're a commodity. He'll have plenty of punt returns.

Cito Pelon
04-25-2011, 02:49 PM
^

I wouldnt personally put him back there unless it's a division or playoff game and we're down in the 2nd half.

Please. That's 30% of Peterson's value at #2 overall.

TheReverend
04-25-2011, 02:49 PM
I'm just assuming that if they take him at 2, their plan is more than "eh, he'd be a pretty good SAM."

Certainly, but what is that plan?

Part of the rational is that he's a great athlete in coverage.

So are we blitzing him or dropping him back on passing downs? Which is a better use of his skill set?

How often can we UTILIZE that skill set without becoming a 5-2 modified 34?

It's on the coaches to form a plan that he fits, but what if they can't?

Beantown Bronco
04-25-2011, 02:53 PM
Good returners will always pay off, they're a commodity. He'll have plenty of punt returns.

We draft top college returners every year....and every year they largely suck with us. It's not their fault. It's all the following factors:

1. Playing in Mile High 8 games means more touchbacks and fair catches.
2. Our blocking and/or special teams coaching has sucked for years.
3. We can't pin teams deep and
4. Our defenses doesn't force enough 3 and outs.

Now add all that to the new kickoff placement at the 35.

Cito Pelon
04-25-2011, 02:58 PM
I'd much rather shore up the defensive front seven with a freak athlete linebacker with abilities that could force another offense to alter their game plan to address him than to add a second CB who returns punts sometimes too.

Miller is a superb athlete, no doubt about it, and yeah I can picture where an offense would be scared how to deal with the guy. But, I always look at guys in round one and wonder if they'll play ST's. It's always a big bonus if guys play ST's to go along with their starting roles.

MagicHef
04-25-2011, 02:59 PM
Certainly, but what is that plan?

Part of the rational is that he's a great athlete in coverage.

So are we blitzing him or dropping him back on passing downs? Which is a better use of his skill set?

How often can we UTILIZE that skill set without becoming a 5-2 modified 34?

It's on the coaches to form a plan that he fits, but what if they can't?

I think a large part of why he'd be effective is that the offense wouldn't know if he was dropping back or blitzing. Why would it matter if we became a 5-2, if that's what worked best? Also, if the powers that be took a player at 2 and then were unable to utilize him properly, hopefully they would not be in power here for long.

Cito Pelon
04-25-2011, 03:09 PM
We draft top college returners every year....and every year they largely suck with us. It's not their fault. It's all the following factors:

1. Playing in Mile High 8 games means more touchbacks and fair catches.
2. Our blocking and/or special teams coaching has sucked for years.
3. We can't pin teams deep and
4. Our defenses doesn't force enough 3 and outs.

Now add all that to the new kickoff placement at the 35.

Rick Upchurch, Floyd Little, Darrien Gordon, and Billy Thompson all played at Mile High, and all had great return numbers. It's who you have not the venue.

Beantown Bronco
04-25-2011, 03:17 PM
Rick Upchurch, Floyd Little, Darrien Gordon, and Billy Thompson all played at Mile High, and all had great return numbers. It's who you have not the venue.

Please. How about we go with the modern era, where every team has a kicker that can boot it through the EZ from the 35 yd line? A few years of Gordon + one year of Deltha O'Neal in the last 20 years despite regular investments in top returners hardly blows my skirt up.

Cito Pelon
04-25-2011, 03:27 PM
Please. How about we go with the modern era, where every team has a kicker that can boot it through the EZ from the 35 yd line? A few years of Gordon + one year of Deltha O'Neal in the last 20 years despite regular investments in top returners hardly blows my skirt up.

Well, c'mon man. "Regular investments" in top returners? Please.

Roscoe Parrish and Leon Hall would have been investments in top returners.

Modern era, ancient era, no matter, skilled returners are skilled returners. Devin Hester turned out to be the best returner ever, and in "the modern era". Roscoe Parrish and Leon Hall also.

Some guys have it and some don't, period. Peterson apparently has it, so that is a bigtime bonus to his CB skills, and that puts Peterson a little above Miller and Dareus.

TerrElway
04-25-2011, 04:07 PM
Just so I can be clear on your position:

The #2 selection is the end all be all of the off season and that the people who want to take the BPA approach towards a once in a lifetime (hopefully) draft slot are the ones that are misguided?

Nah, I was thinking about the BPA approach when I wrote it. I see where you are coming from and I wouldn't think the draft was a horrid failure if they took him. I just don't think this team is in a position where they can take BPA.

They have so many needs that they must address them and the argument can be made that premium Dlinemen have a greater impact than premium DBs. A stud Dline can make a good secondary look great. A bad Dline can make a Hall of Fame secondary look average at best.

The caveat to all of this is the quality of the Dlinemen. Is one of them a can't miss superstar? If not, that makes the decision to go DL harder.

Is the #2 the be all end all? Nope. There is an entire draft to take into account and then free agency if everyone gets their $h!t together. But it's a big piece.

Full disclosure, I played corner, I coach DB's I LOVE the secondary. But a great Dline helps out a secondary far more than a great secondary helps out a Dline.

I don't think people wanting Peterson are dumb for wanting him, he's probably the best overall player in the draft, it's just my opinion that you start building with the front seven.

Having said all that, I would like to see them pick Von Miller. There hasn't been an Al Wilson caliber LB on this team since...well, Al Wilson.

TheReverend
04-25-2011, 04:14 PM
Nah, I was thinking about the BPA approach when I wrote it. I see where you are coming from and I wouldn't think the draft was a horrid failure if they took him. I just don't think this team is in a position where they can take BPA.

They have so many needs that they must address them and the argument can be made that premium Dlinemen have a greater impact than premium DBs. A stud Dline can make a good secondary look great. A bad Dline can make a Hall of Fame secondary look average at best.

The caveat to all of this is the quality of the Dlinemen. Is one of them a can't miss superstar? If not, that makes the decision to go DL harder.

Is the #2 the be all end all? Nope. There is an entire draft to take into account and then free agency if everyone gets their $h!t together. But it's a big piece.

Full disclosure, I played corner, I coach DB's I LOVE the secondary. But a great Dline helps out a secondary far more than a great secondary helps out a Dline.

I don't think people wanting Peterson are dumb for wanting him, he's probably the best overall player in the draft, it's just my opinion that you start building with the front seven.

Having said all that, I would like to see them pick Von Miller. There hasn't been an Al Wilson caliber LB on this team since...well, Al Wilson.

Good post. Completely disagree, but good post.

Even in your POV, we are in a position to potentially walk away with "probably the best overall player in the draft". Why in God's name would you want to pass up that opportunity?

We have three picks in GREAT spots in rounds 2-3 to attack the trenches. We could get an Austin, a Paea or potentially a Wilkerson or Liuget, and then some!

I agree that our defense has been flat broken since Al Wilson's injury and I agree that Miller is a special athlete, a producer and a class act. However, I really don't see how we can incorporate his skill set and MAXIMIZE his full potential.

My preference: Peterson, Miller, Dareus at distant 3rd.

My dream first three rounds:

Peterson
Liuget/Austin
Austin/Wilson
Carpenter

Add in a solid performance in FA and the D would be damn near completely revamped in one fell swoop of an off-season.

epicSocialism4tw
04-25-2011, 04:27 PM
Nah, I was thinking about the BPA approach when I wrote it. I see where you are coming from and I wouldn't think the draft was a horrid failure if they took him. I just don't think this team is in a position where they can take BPA.

They have so many needs that they must address them and the argument can be made that premium Dlinemen have a greater impact than premium DBs. A stud Dline can make a good secondary look great. A bad Dline can make a Hall of Fame secondary look average at best.

The caveat to all of this is the quality of the Dlinemen. Is one of them a can't miss superstar? If not, that makes the decision to go DL harder.

Is the #2 the be all end all? Nope. There is an entire draft to take into account and then free agency if everyone gets their $h!t together. But it's a big piece.

Full disclosure, I played corner, I coach DB's I LOVE the secondary. But a great Dline helps out a secondary far more than a great secondary helps out a Dline.

I don't think people wanting Peterson are dumb for wanting him, he's probably the best overall player in the draft, it's just my opinion that you start building with the front seven.

Having said all that, I would like to see them pick Von Miller. There hasn't been an Al Wilson caliber LB on this team since...well, Al Wilson.

We sure have missed Al, havent we?

Beantown Bronco
04-25-2011, 07:47 PM
Well, c'mon man. "Regular investments" in top returners? Please.

Roscoe Parrish and Leon Hall would have been investments in top returners.

Modern era, ancient era, no matter, skilled returners are skilled returners. Devin Hester turned out to be the best returner ever, and in "the modern era". Roscoe Parrish and Leon Hall also.

Some guys have it and some don't, period. Peterson apparently has it, so that is a bigtime bonus to his CB skills, and that puts Peterson a little above Miller and Dareus.

You clearly don't know what you're talking about if you don't think the Broncos have drafted guys basically every other year that were incredible returners in college.

And what do all these names have in common that you keep mentioning? They don't play in Denver and don't do squat when they play against Denver in Denver. Shocker.

TheReverend
04-25-2011, 08:10 PM
I think a large part of why he'd be effective is that the offense wouldn't know if he was dropping back or blitzing. Why would it matter if we became a 5-2, if that's what worked best? Also, if the powers that be took a player at 2 and then were unable to utilize him properly, hopefully they would not be in power here for long.

Because a 52 is essentially a 34, especially with gap resonsibilities. We were abysmal at that last season AND cut ties with the players that fit that system up front.

Its a massive reset button, but in a bad way.

BroncoInferno
04-25-2011, 08:45 PM
We draft top college returners every year....and every year they largely suck with us. It's not their fault. It's all the following factors:

1. Playing in Mile High 8 games means more touchbacks and fair catches.
2. Our blocking and/or special teams coaching has sucked for years.
3. We can't pin teams deep and
4. Our defenses doesn't force enough 3 and outs.

Now add all that to the new kickoff placement at the 35.

Problems with your logic:

1) Still leaves 8 road games to work with. That's especially important if you are talking about road playoff games. Also, while your points are valid for KO returns, punt returns are a differnt ballgame. Teams don't typically try to purposely kick into the endzone on a PR. If they do, that proves the value of a great PR man because no team will purposely kick into the endzone on a PR unless the guy is an elite level PR man. That will improve field position if someone kicks into the endzone rather than trying to kick inside the 10. 2) poor blocking/coaching is independent of the return man and can be improved 3) again, pinning deep is independent of the return man and 4) the defense can be improved. That's a point indepedent of the returner himself. Only one of your points actually applies to the actual returner alone and doesn't apply to the other 31 teams (point 1).

MagicHef
04-25-2011, 09:11 PM
Because a 52 is essentially a 34, especially with gap resonsibilities. We were abysmal at that last season AND cut ties with the players that fit that system up front.

Its a massive reset button, but in a bad way.

Is a 4-3 with an LB blitzing always a 5-2? Does it depend on the frequency of blitzes? It doesn't seem like a player's versatility should essentially count against him. If the FO doesn't have a good way to utilize him already in the works, then I agree, Peterson should be the pick. He just seems like a very special player that could really pay off with a scheme designed around him.

TheReverend
04-25-2011, 09:17 PM
Is a 4-3 with an LB blitzing always a 5-2? Does it depend on the frequency of blitzes? It doesn't seem like a player's versatility should essentially count against him. If the FO doesn't have a good way to utilize him already in the works, then I agree, Peterson should be the pick. He just seems like a very special player that could really pay off with a scheme designed around him.

It's going to change gap assignments and responsibilities depending on where they blitz him.

Just because I don't see how they'd reliably work it and fully utilize him doesn't mean Fox and Allen can't! They'll take who the best player is that can make the biggest impact to the team and that's all we can ask for.

...but it's definitely Peterson. :)

epicSocialism4tw
04-25-2011, 09:28 PM
It's going to change gap assignments and responsibilities depending on where they blitz him.

Just because I don't see how they'd reliably work it and fully utilize him doesn't mean Fox and Allen can't! They'll take who the best player is that can make the biggest impact to the team and that's all we can ask for.

...but it's definitely Peterson.

I dont see how a #2 CB can have a bigger impact than a revolutionary linebacker who can shut down his side of the line and get after the QB better than anyone else in the draft.

Denver needs a front 7 player almost infinitely more than they need a #2 CB. So simply by default, a blue-chipper that comes in and plays one of those positions is much more capable of being a difference maker and making the biggest impact.

TheReverend
04-25-2011, 09:36 PM
I dont see how a #2 CB can have a bigger impact than a revolutionary linebacker who can shut down his side of the line and get after the QB better than anyone else in the draft.

Denver needs a front 7 player almost infinitely more than they need a #2 CB. So simply by default, a blue-chipper that comes in and plays one of those positions is much more capable of being a difference maker and making the biggest impact.

Disagree for reasons I've posted about AT LENGTH.

If they feel Miller is the superior player and that they can maximize his ability, then I'm on board. Personally, I doubt EITHER.

NUB
04-25-2011, 10:01 PM
You really can't go wrong with either Miller or Peterson.

epicSocialism4tw
04-25-2011, 11:19 PM
Disagree for reasons I've posted about AT LENGTH.

That's great man, but I dont read alot of what you post. Definitely not as much as you read it. Ha!

TheReverend
04-25-2011, 11:25 PM
That's great man, but I dont read alot of what you post. Definitely not as much as you read it. Ha!

I care because...?

Ftr, this is what a real athlete looks like... voted top defensive player in America in High School, voted top defensive player in America in college. Enough said:

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/iCj46BMErlo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

epicSocialism4tw
04-25-2011, 11:31 PM
I care because...?

Ftr, this is what a real athlete looks like... voted top defensive player in America in High School, voted top defensive player in America in college. Enough said:

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/iCj46BMErlo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Dude you've already posted the Peterson hype videos.

Youtube made Justin Bieber into a star. That doesn't mean he can play bass like Paul McCartney.

TheReverend
04-25-2011, 11:33 PM
Dude you've already posted the Peterson hype videos.

Youtube made Justin Bieber into a star. That doesn't mean he can play bass like Paul McCartney.

That would work if it made sense. Name one player with more defensive qualifications coming into professional football?

baja
04-25-2011, 11:33 PM
I care because...?

Ftr, this is what a real athlete looks like... voted top defensive player in America in High School, voted top defensive player in America in college. Enough said:

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/iCj46BMErlo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


....So does he ever tackle?

epicSocialism4tw
04-25-2011, 11:38 PM
That would work if it made sense. Name one player with more defensive qualifications coming into professional football?

Von Miller.

TheReverend
04-25-2011, 11:41 PM
Von Miller.

Right. That's why Miller won the Bednarik award as the best defensive player in the country?

Oh wait... that was Peterson... Better college career. Better measurables.

Not a knock on Miller. Great player, but he absolutely doesn't come close as to the question of "better defensive qualifications".

epicSocialism4tw
04-25-2011, 11:43 PM
Right. That's why Miller won the Bednarik award as the best defensive player in the country?

Oh wait... that was Peterson... Better college career. Better measurables.

Not a knock on Miller. Great player, but he absolutely doesn't come close as to the question of "better defensive qualifications".


Dude, you're so far out on this Peterson stuff that its starting to get weird.

TheReverend
04-25-2011, 11:46 PM
Dude, you're so far out on this Peterson stuff that its starting to get weird.

What? I just complimented Miller...

It must only seem that way to you because you won't talk about the merits of the players.

Because you can't... Hell, you even admitted how great of a player Peterson was, and have only justified it with "We need to go front 7".

That's a terrible way to try and justify the others are superior players. In fact, it really does the opposite.

Try to come up with a compelling point before you reply. No rush. But please bring SOMETHING to the table.

epicSocialism4tw
04-25-2011, 11:48 PM
What? I just complimented Miller...

It must only seem that way to you because you won't talk about the merits of the players.

Because you can't... Hell, you even admitted how great of a player Peterson was, and have only justified it with "We need to go front 7".

That's a terrible way to try and justify the others are superior players. In fact, it really does the opposite.

Try to come up with a compelling point before you reply. No rush. But please bring SOMETHING to the table.

Is his picture above your bed?

TheReverend
04-25-2011, 11:51 PM
Is his picture above your bed?

Another sterling example of your long standing "Drama Llama" nickname.

Answer to question. How do you possibly feel Miller has better defensive qualifications coming into the NFL?

It isn't impact
It isn't measurables
It isn't awards
It isn't pedigree (Coming into college: #1 defensive prospect in nation as opposed to #29th in Texas and 15th WOLB in the nation)

So, what is it? Outside of your fantastic "WE NEED FRONT SE7EN GAIZ!"

The Joker
04-25-2011, 11:57 PM
I'm not a massive X's and O's guy by any means, but here's how I've been envisaging them using Miller if he is the selection.

In the base defense we'll see him play a mixture of SAM and RDE. Obviously we have Dumervil pencilled in as the starter as our blindside pass rusher, but what's going to be very important is to keep him from getting worn down too much in run defense. So much of Elvis' game is his speed, if he gets gassed he's going to lose so much of what makes him effective. We need to make sure he's fresh and ready to go balls out after the QB when we get them in a passing down.

So we rotate the two at that spot, ensuring that we almost always have at least one pass rush demon on the field at all times.

When Elvis is lined up at RDE, Miller drops back into the SAM position. There he plays as a traditional SAM linebacker, but one that the offense have to really take into account as a potential blitzer, and adust their protections accordingly. This in turn creates more opportunities for Dumervil on the opposite side, and of course we blitz Miller occasionally to take advantage of that side of his game.

When Dumervil needs a break, Miller goes to RDE and we bring in our (hopefully) competent backup SAM linebacker to play that spot and let Miller put his hand in the dirt for a play or two and rush the passer.

The real fun of course happens in the nickel package, where we have Dumervil and Miller lined up wide on either side. Ayers shifts inside and plays UT. Theoretically, that's a hell of a third down pass rush, and hopefully you still have Miller and Dumervil pretty fresh because neither is taking too consistent a pounding in the running game on early downs.

To me, that would be well worth the #2 selection. I'm not sure there aren't some holes in the theory though, as I said I'm no expert on the finer details of the game so would love to hear some people's thoughts on it.

But the idea of getting

- a 3rd down pass rush specialist.
- A starting SAM linebacker.
- A rotational defensive end.

all for one pick certainly is appealing, especially when you consider all the holes we have on our team and with the pedigree that Miller seems to have.

Agamemnon
04-26-2011, 12:05 AM
I'm not a massive X's and O's guy by any means, but here's how I've been envisaging them using Miller if he is the selection.

In the base defense we'll see him play a mixture of SAM and RDE. Obviously we have Dumervil pencilled in as the starter as our blindside pass rusher, but what's going to be very important is to keep him from getting worn down too much in run defense. So much of Elvis' game is his speed, if he gets gassed he's going to lose so much of what makes him effective. We need to make sure he's fresh and ready to go balls out after the QB when we get them in a passing down.

So we rotate the two at that spot, ensuring that we almost always have at least one pass rush demon on the field at all times.

When Elvis is lined up at RDE, Miller drops back into the SAM position. There he plays as a traditional SAM linebacker, but one that the offense have to really take into account as a potential blitzer, and adust their protections accordingly. This in turn creates more opportunities for Dumervil on the opposite side, and of course we blitz Miller occasionally to take advantage of that side of his game.

When Dumervil needs a break, Miller goes to RDE and we bring in our (hopefully) competent backup SAM linebacker to play that spot and let Miller put his hand in the dirt for a play or two and rush the passer.

The real fun of course happens in the nickel package, where we have Dumervil and Miller lined up wide on either side. Ayers shifts inside and plays UT. Theoretically, that's a hell of a third down pass rush, and hopefully you still have Miller and Dumervil pretty fresh because neither is taking too consistent a pounding in the running game on early downs.

To me, that would be well worth the #2 selection. I'm not sure there aren't some holes in the theory though, as I said I'm no expert on the finer details of the game so would love to hear some people's thoughts on it.

But the idea of getting

- a 3rd down pass rush specialist.
- A starting SAM linebacker.
- A rotational defensive end.

all for one pick certainly is appealing, especially when you consider all the holes we have on our team and with the pedigree that Miller seems to have.

Unless Miller can fill all three of those roles at an elite level I have a hard time seeing the value at #2. If he can manage it though he would be something else for this defense.

The Joker
04-26-2011, 01:10 AM
Unless Miller can fill all three of those roles at an elite level I have a hard time seeing the value at #2. If he can manage it though he would be something else for this defense.

Does he really have to be elite in all three roles though?

With how pass happy the NFL is these days a quality 3rd down pass rush specialist alone has become a very valuable commodity. Someone who can do that AND play starting linebacker as well as help out in the D-line rotation has got to have some serious value surely?

I'll be happy as long as we don't go QB though, in all honesty. If we could move down a few spots and grab Peterson, Dareus or Fairley though I'd be ecstatic. If we want Miller it has to be at #2 though I reckon, I think the Bills take him at #3 if he's there.

MagicHef
04-26-2011, 02:20 AM
Another sterling example of your long standing "Drama Llama" nickname.

Answer to question. How do you possibly feel Miller has better defensive qualifications coming into the NFL?

It isn't impact
It isn't measurables
It isn't awards
It isn't pedigree (Coming into college: #1 defensive prospect in nation as opposed to #29th in Texas and 15th WOLB in the nation)

So, what is it? Outside of your fantastic "WE NEED FRONT SE7EN GAIZ!"

Well, I certainly wouldn't argue about awards or pedigree, but leading the nation in sacks is certainly impactful, and his measurables at the combine were pretty spectacular.

Requiem
04-26-2011, 06:51 PM
I'm really glad you guys are enjoying the thread. Great discussion.

TheReverend
04-26-2011, 07:07 PM
Well, I certainly wouldn't argue about awards or pedigree, but leading the nation in sacks is certainly impactful, and his measurables at the combine were pretty spectacular.

I agree. I have NOTHING negative to say about Miller.

Oh and it would and COULD be a very interesting possibility, and if he's the selection I'll be excited to see it in action.

That being said, neither Fox or Allen have shown a tendency to utilize LB's in a fashion anywhere remotely comparable, so I doubt it.

rugbythug
04-26-2011, 07:34 PM
I agree. I have NOTHING negative to say about Miller.

Allen Just came from the Greg Williams school of Defense. Gregs first rule is-There is no Rules. If they Pick Vonn, its because they know they can make him a star. You don't bet half your stack on the flop and then check your way to the river.

IE- Taking Miller is a Bold Move, it would necessitate a bold Defense.

MagicHef
04-26-2011, 08:49 PM
I agree. I have NOTHING negative to say about Miller.

I would be thrilled to have either, I think I may just be subconsciously preparing myself to see Peterson in a pretty shade of sky blue.

FireFly
04-26-2011, 09:02 PM
I'm suprised they're as high on Green? He's good... but that good? A better prospect than PP? Idk...

FireFly
04-26-2011, 09:14 PM
I know I said I didn't care who we picked at #2 - Dareus, Miller or PP. Now, I'd be disappointed with Dareus - I actually hope he goes first eliminating him from consideration!