PDA

View Full Version : Tebow vs QBs in the 2011 draft


BroncoSojia
04-08-2011, 10:03 AM
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/26064/how-tim-tebow-stacks-up-against-2011-qb-class

The Tim Tebow debate rages on one year after he was the most dissected prospect in the 2010 NFL draft.

Last year, the Denver Broncos shocked the NFL by taking Tebow with the No. 25 overall pick. Now, it is the Broncos who are considering Tebow’s future.

The Broncos are working out or visiting with several of the top quarterback prospects in the draft. Legendary Denver quarterback and new Broncos vice president of football operations John Elway has said Denver’s interest in quarterbacks is not a smokescreen to confuse other teams. Yet, Elway also said the team’s interest in quarterbacks doesn’t mean the team is not sold on Tebow. Elway insists the Broncos simply don’t want to bypass a franchise quarterback if he’s available.

Earlier this week, ESPN’s John Clayton said he thinks Elway might take a quarterback in the second round and admit the Tebow pick -- which was made by former Denver coach Josh McDaniels -- was a mistake. With Tebow’s future perhaps unclear again, we polled several draft experts and experienced NFL scouts about what they think Denver should do and how Tebow stacks up against the better quarterback prospects of 2011.


John Elway and the Broncos may be looking for Tim Tebow's replacement already.
Tebow remains a polarizing figure. The experts are divided. Some think Tebow is a born leader. Others wouldn’t touch him because of an unrefined throwing motion.

ESPN draft guru Mel Kiper still has a difficult time grading Tebow because he doesn’t think he can be a pro-style quarterback. Kiper thinks Tebow would likely be a fourth-round pick in 2011. Former NFL scout Gary Horton of Scouts Inc. thinks Tebow is the answer in Denver because he projects better to the NFL than Auburn quarterback Cam Newton, who could be the No. 1 overall pick by Carolina. Horton said it would be “ridiculous” and Denver would be “absolutely crazy” to draft Newton or Missouri’s Blaine Gabbert at No. 2 and ignore its massive defensive needs after drafting a quarterback in the first round last year.

The other quarterbacks who could be taken in the first three rounds are Washington’s Jake Locker, Arkansas’ Ryan Mallett, TCU’s Andy Dalton, Florida State’s Christian Ponder, Nevada’s Colin Kaepernick and Iowa’s Ricky Stanzi. Kiper and Scouts Inc.’s Matt Williamson and Steve Muench think most of them are better NFL quarterback prospects than Tebow.

“Tim Tebow is interesting because so many people have different opinions about him,” Muench said. “That’s what Denver is probably trying to figure out right now. In a lot of ways, I’d say there are a lot better options than Tebow, but then, I wouldn’t be surprised if Tim Tebow succeeds because of what kind of person and leader he is …. It’s not easy.”

Muench said Scouts Inc. had Tebow rated as a late second-round or an early third-round prospect last year. He was the fourth-rated quarterback on Scouts Inc.’s list behind Sam Bradford (who went to St. Louis at No. 1), Jimmy Clausen (No. 47, Carolina) and Colt McCoy (No. 85, Cleveland). Muench said this year’s quarterback class is much better than the 2010 class. Thus, he thinks Tebow would be a fourth-round prospect and be a similar prospect to Virginia Tech’s Tyrod Taylor. Some teams think Taylor is best suited for another position. Last year, Kiper (and perhaps some teams did as well) looked at Tebow as an H-back prospect. Kiper’s thoughts haven’t changed.

“I don’t think many teams would look at him in the second or third rounds,” Kiper said. “He’s not up there with Newton and Gabbert, then he’d be behind second-level guys like and Andy Dalton. Ponder is moving like crazy … I think Tebow would certainly be the fourth or fifth, sixth or seventh quarterback on teams' boards.”


Some scouts thought Tim Tebow would be better served as an H-back in the NFL.
Still, Horton would rather have Tebow than Newton, who’ll certainly be a top-12 pick.

“There are football questions about Tebow, but there’s also football questions about Newton,” Horton said. “There are no intangible questions about Tebow. But there are intangibles questions about Newton."

Horton thinks Denver should either let veteran quarterback Kyle Orton start the season and replace him with Tebow when the season goes south or go with Tebow to start the season. Horton reasons that quarterbacks emerge as top draft prospects every year and there will be plenty of options next year if Tebow fails, perhaps even Stanford gem Andrew Luck.

“If it doesn’t work with Tebow, well, then you move on, but you have to see what he can do,” Horton said. “Tebow was drafted as a developmental guy. Don’t run out of patience with him before he gets a chance to develop.”

Williamson said he never thought it was a good idea for Denver to draft Tebow and he would support Elway’s decision to pull the plug now. He thinks there are several second-round type prospects who would be better options than Tebow in Denver.

“I would certainly rather have Gabbert, Newton and Ponder over Tebow in that order. And there could be an argument made for the others,” Williamson said. “I would take Mallett for sure over [Tebow]. Tebow and Locker are similar -- big, strong guys with suspect accuracy/passing skills, but Locker is further along coming out of school than Tebow.”

However, former Carolina and St. Louis draft executive Tony Softli said he had Tebow ranked as a low second-round pick last year when he was with the Rams. He said he wouldn’t draft a quarterback this year. He believes in Tebow. Softli raved about Tebow’s leadership ability, his history as a winner and his intelligence. Softli said Tebow, Matt Ryan, Bradford and Josh Freeman were the brightest quarterback prospects he’s seen in the past 10 years when it came to working on the grease board and breaking down the game.

“I understand why Denver is looking at quarterbacks -- they’re doing their homework and that’s smart -- but I think Tebow is going to be the guy,” Softli said. “I think the Broncos should forget about his throwing motion and just let him be who he is. His intangibles are off the charts. When it’s Tebow Time, he’ll show he’s the answer.”

It’s clear. The Tebow debate is not over.

Tombstone RJ
04-08-2011, 10:12 AM
Funny how the morons who don't like Tebow completey ignore his 3 NFL starts... hey Mel, what about those starts you idiot!

SonOfLe-loLang
04-08-2011, 10:20 AM
I agree. I don't quite get why Tebow's game against the Texans was viewed as like some cute little anomoly.

Beantown Bronco
04-08-2011, 10:28 AM
I agree. I don't quite get why Tebow's game against the Texans was viewed as like some cute little anomoly.

While it was a GREAT 4th quarter performance, the Texans defense was as bad as Denver's last year overall and their passing defense was by far the worst in the league.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-08-2011, 10:32 AM
While it was a GREAT 4th quarter performance, the Texans defense was as bad as Denver's last year overall and their passing defense was by far the worst in the league.

I don't give a **** if it was bad, point being was he had a lot of success against an NFL defense and put the entire team on his back. Sam Bradfords only 300 yard game was against us, but i dont see anyone mentioning that caveat. I'll say it again. if in his second start, Bradford went 16/29 for 305 and a huge 4th quarter comeback...he'd be crowned. For tebow, it was "thats nice, pat pat"

Beantown Bronco
04-08-2011, 10:35 AM
I don't give a **** if it was bad, point being was he had a lot of success against an NFL defense and put the entire team on his back.

No need to get crazy. All I'm doing is playing Devil's Advocate. I can see both sides of this argument and don't mind presenting them.

Sam Bradfords only 300 yard game was against us, but i dont see anyone mentioning that caveat.

Maybe not among the vocal minority, but I mentioned it a ton during the season.....so I'm with you.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-08-2011, 10:39 AM
No need to get crazy. All I'm doing is playing Devil's Advocate. I can see both sides of this argument and don't mind presenting them.



Maybe not among the vocal minority, but I mentioned it a ton during the season.....so I'm with you.

I totally understand why people are skeptical of Tebow, what I dont understand is this notion that he hasn't earned a chance to prove himself. its absurd. He has shown potential playing against NFL level talent. Does he have a lot of work to do? Sure...but what NFL rookie qb doesnt? Jay Cutler had a very up and down rookie year, but it was unanimously agreed that he'd be the starter the next season.

Archer81
04-08-2011, 10:43 AM
While it was a GREAT 4th quarter performance, the Texans defense was as bad as Denver's last year overall and their passing defense was by far the worst in the league.


If tim was not capable of taking advantage of the horrible texans defense, we would have heard about it. "How great can Tebow be? He couldnt beat the Texans defense..."

No win situation. Tebow made the last three games competitive. That is what you want from any quarterback.

:Broncos:

WolfpackGuy
04-08-2011, 10:44 AM
While it was a GREAT 4th quarter performance, the Texans defense was as bad as Denver's last year overall and their passing defense was by far the worst in the league.

Kubiak strangely abandoning the run in the second half lost that game for Houston because Foster was gashing the Broncos.

I'm not real high on the 2011 QB class, so I'd be really surprised if the Broncos took a QB in the first two rounds unless one of the bigger names falls.

Letting Tebow play isn't going to hurt anything.

TheReverend
04-08-2011, 10:49 AM
Let's not forget he hung up 3 TDs and 300 yards PERSONALLY against the #1 defense in the entire NFL and ALMOST had a come back win there, as well.

He also lost that game by 5 points with an interim HC, when our incumbent veteran starter with an actual HC/play caller lost by 21 earlier in the season.

FantomForce
04-08-2011, 10:50 AM
Yeah a football related thread! Kick a$$

Beantown Bronco
04-08-2011, 10:54 AM
Let's not forget he hung up 3 TDs and 300 yards PERSONALLY against the #1 defense in the entire NFL and ALMOST had a come back win there, as well.

He also lost that game by 5 points with an interim HC, when our incumbent veteran starter with an actual HC/play caller lost by 21 earlier in the season.

Bingo. This is the game I'd be much more likely to site if I got into a debate with someone about Tebow. While the ending to the Texans game was awesome and showed his comeback ability/will to win, etc., that game as a whole wouldn't make as good a supporting argument (given the "quality" of the Texan defense and the fact that Tebow largely didn't look good most of that game).

oubronco
04-08-2011, 10:56 AM
Let him play it out this year and if he takes to the #1-2 pick then we can get Luck and if he plays well then we have our QB it's a win win situation

jhns
04-08-2011, 10:58 AM
Let's not forget he hung up 3 TDs and 300 yards PERSONALLY against the #1 defense in the entire NFL and ALMOST had a come back win there, as well.

He also lost that game by 5 points with an interim HC, when our incumbent veteran starter with an actual HC/play caller lost by 21 earlier in the season.

This. He clearly outplayed Orton last season and I think he did enough to earn a shot at starting. I would take a raw Tebow over any QB in this class. This is probably the worst Qb class I have ever seen. Why waste the money on more crap even if you don't like Tebow? Shoot, I hate Orton being the starter but would take him over the guys in this class. If they really want a new QB, I hope they at least wait until next season.

OABB
04-08-2011, 11:03 AM
Let's not forget he hung up 3 TDs and 300 yards PERSONALLY against the #1 defense in the entire NFL and ALMOST had a come back win there, as well.

He also lost that game by 5 points with an interim HC, when our incumbent veteran starter with an actual HC/play caller lost by 21 earlier in the season.

He also was competitive against oakland until he was hamstrung by the gayest gameplan since Herm Edwards coached.

Tebow did more than enough to convince me he's worth a shot. But than again, I'm smart and unbiased. so of course I can see how well Tebow played.

alkemical
04-08-2011, 11:06 AM
So the question really is:

Is the front office/coaching staff for the broncos just blowing a lot of smoke?

I'm not really sure, and maybe "they" aren't either (depending on when scotch is served).

tsiguy96
04-08-2011, 11:07 AM
literally no argument can be made for dumping a first round QB with a ceiling like tebows after one season. mallet over tebow? good luck with that, this team would kill for tebow, and you could see it in the game. THAT is what makes a team better, not a QB who ran almost a 5.5 in the 40 and has essentially zero leadership ability.

Dedhed
04-08-2011, 11:25 AM
Anyone who would take Newton over Tebow is just a complete moron. To me Newton has the exact same tangible questions as Tebow, e.g. throwing motion, coming from spread offense, and none of the character to make up for those concerns.

In fact his character is even more of a concern. It's retarded to me that people who are Tebow haters slobber over Newton. I just don't get it at all.

oubronco
04-08-2011, 11:27 AM
It's amazing to me that anyone would want Newton and his daddy

rugbythug
04-08-2011, 12:12 PM
What could tebow have done to make people believe?

TheReverend
04-08-2011, 12:17 PM
What could tebow have done to make people believe?

In 3 games? Nothing.

In picture form:

http://icanhasinternets.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/haters6.jpg


But:

http://www.golivewire.com/forums/img.cgi?i=124360

alkemical
04-08-2011, 12:21 PM
What could tebow have done to make people believe?

Get pulled over with some purple drank and a few hookers.

gyldenlove
04-08-2011, 12:32 PM
We need Tebow to play, the only stupid thing we can do now is to continue trying to build the offense and neglecting the defense. Right now we are not going to win anyway no matter is we score 10 or 30 points, we need to get the defense fixed to give the team a shot at winning, by then we will also know if Tebow is the man or if we need to look elsewhere.

Bronco Vixen
04-08-2011, 12:57 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/26064/how-tim-tebow-stacks-up-against-2011-qb-class

“If it doesn’t work with Tebow, well, then you move on, but you have to see what he can do,” Horton said. “Tebow was drafted as a developmental guy. Don’t run out of patience with him before he gets a chance to develop.”


This is exactly my feeling and why this is so frustrating to me. Particularly when we're so focused on a less than stellar QB class. I have no doubt in my mind that Elway has zero confidence in Timmy and has zero interest in helping him to develop. It's just not smart though. Take this year, give him a chance, and if it doesn't work out, THEN go courting Mr. perfect pants Luck.

Requiem
04-08-2011, 12:58 PM
I think Tebow deserves a shot. If he doesn't do it in one year, look towards next year. The only other option for QB for me in this draft is Christian Ponder, if he falls or we get enough ammo in a trade back to be all right with moving up for him.

Bronco Vixen
04-08-2011, 01:10 PM
I think Tebow deserves a shot. If he doesn't do it in one year, look towards next year. The only other option for QB for me in this draft is Christian Ponder, if he falls or we get enough ammo in a trade back to be all right with moving up for him.

I actually really like Ponder as well. His injury this year really started his unfair draft slide - but unfortunately (from a stealing him in a later round perspective) his kicking ass at the combine seemed to remind everyone what a complete package he is.

Pick Six
04-08-2011, 02:45 PM
We could probably use another #3 quarterback. I don't think Quinn will ever get a fair shot, in Denver. If the quarterback is good enough, he MAY even pass Tebow for the #2 spot...

MacGruder
04-08-2011, 03:44 PM
Bingo. This is the game I'd be much more likely to site if I got into a debate with someone about Tebow. While the ending to the Texans game was awesome and showed his comeback ability/will to win, etc., that game as a whole wouldn't make as good a supporting argument (given the "quality" of the Texan defense and the fact that Tebow largely didn't look good most of that game).

The problem is you are going by "looks".. this is the mistake everyone makes.. Tebow looks different than other QBs because he has such a unique skill set.. it's like how people always say Vince Young "wins ugly". Guys like Tebow, Vince and Vick have so much physical ability they can do things their own way.. look at Vick who looked terrible the entire game against the Giants then won the game all at the end of the game in the 4th quarter.. same exact thing.

razorwire77
04-08-2011, 04:08 PM
I will crap in my own hand and throw it at my television if we go QB with 1, 2A, or 2B. Gotta give Tebow 2012 to prove he's a starter. If he sucks, we'll be picking in the top 5 and we can jockey to draft Luck if necessary. 2011 has got to be impact defensive player (Miller, Darius, Peterson Fairley etc.) with the first rounder, DT/S Pea etc. with 2A, and maybe, maybe, RB or TE with 2B if a guy like Rudolph or Ingram drop.

enjolras
04-08-2011, 04:22 PM
What's driving me nuts is that our last memory of Tebow was him very much looking like an NFL QB. In the 4th quarter he got comfortable and started completing passes that NFL QB's make. He threw outs, screens, and everything in between (except a slant, which is no question his weakness).

I'm not sure what the hell Elway is up to.

rugbythug
04-08-2011, 04:28 PM
I will crap in my own hand and throw it at my television if we go QB with 1, 2A, or 2B. Gotta give Tebow 2012 to prove he's a starter. If he sucks, we'll be picking in the top 5 and we can jockey to draft Luck if necessary. 2011 has got to be impact defensive player (Miller, Darius, Peterson Fairley etc.) with the first rounder, DT/S Pea etc. with 2A, and maybe, maybe, RB or TE with 2B if a guy like Rudolph or Ingram drop.

Awsome!!!

MacGruder
04-08-2011, 04:30 PM
I think a big part of this is about system.. the NFL has become less about how talented a guy is and more about how he fits in your system. I think this is why McD and Bellichick are so hot on Tebow.. they both use many elements of Urban Meyer's offense.

Does Fox/Elway feel comfortable coaching/developing a guy like Tebow with his skill set? Does Fox/Elway have the creativity and adaptability to feel comfortable coaching Tebow or building a team around him? I think most coaches are afraid of someone so unique..

Drek
04-08-2011, 05:00 PM
You got to give Tebow a shot and focus this draft on installing John Fox's defense.

The speed with which you build Fox's defense also completely changes the scale you're grading Tebow by. If Fox can put something together like in his prime years in Carolina defensively and add something even close to that in the running game then the standard for Tebow to be a franchise QB dramatically.

Tebow in games decided by a touchdown or less is going to be a monster. He showed us that last year against Oakland with a joke game plan against a top 10 defense, and then again against San Diego against the statistical #1 D and O, not just against Houston. You put Tebow in a game where he's got to make a play and the kid finds a way to make a play. Give him a D and a running game, then watch that rare talent produce wins for you.

Tombstone RJ
04-08-2011, 05:15 PM
I think a big part of this is about system.. the NFL has become less about how talented a guy is and more about how he fits in your system. I think this is why McD and Bellichick are so hot on Tebow.. they both use many elements of Urban Meyer's offense.

Does Fox/Elway feel comfortable coaching/developing a guy like Tebow with his skill set? Does Fox/Elway have the creativity and adaptability to feel comfortable coaching Tebow or building a team around him? I think most coaches are afraid of someone so unique..

and this is why many franchises fail to win consistently. What Elway and Co. need to do is develop on offense around Tebow's strengths. That is not necessarily a spread offense. What I'm saying is you develop an offense that allows Tebow to be successful.

This is something Elway should understand because this was an issue withe Dan Reeves. Had Reeves understood how to best utilize Elway's unique talents, and had Reeves drafted a decent running back, then I'm quite sure the Broncos would have won a SB or two with Reeves and Elway.

Instead, Reeves played conservative on offense with a 3 yard and a cloud of dust running game, and then in the 4th quarter (if the Broncos were not leadiing) he opened up the offense and let Elway do his thing.

Fox and Elway have to understand that you can't put Tebow in an offense where he is going to struggle. You have to give him a great running game and let him also work out of the shot gun a little too. I'm sure Tebow can do fine under center, and I love the single back set, in fact, I think Tebow will do great in this type of offense. But you gotta not try to pound a square peg into a round hole.

The good organizations know how to do this. The stupid organizations (Mike Shanahan and his stooopid defensive moves) don't.

JDB7821
04-08-2011, 05:34 PM
and this is why many franchises fail to win consistently. What Elway and Co. need to do is develop on offense around Tebow's strengths. That is not necessarily a spread offense. What I'm saying is you develop an offense that allows Tebow to be successful.

This is something Elway should understand because this was an issue withe Dan Reeves. Had Reeves understood how to best utilize Elway's unique talents, and had Reeves drafted a decent running back, then I'm quite sure the Broncos would have won a SB or two with Reeves and Elway.

Instead, Reeves played conservative on offense with a 3 yard and a cloud of dust running game, and then in the 4th quarter (if the Broncos were not leadiing) he opened up the offense and let Elway do his thing.

Fox and Elway have to understand that you can't put Tebow in an offense where he is going to struggle. You have to give him a great running game and let him also work out of the shot gun a little too. I'm sure Tebow can do fine under center, and I love the single back set, in fact, I think Tebow will do great in this type of offense. But you gotta not try to pound a square peg into a round hole.

The good organizations know how to do this. The stupid organizations (Mike Shanahan and his stooopid defensive moves) don't.

That's very true, but I think Fox and Elway are trying to install a consistent scheme on both offense and defense. Fox is smart enough that he knows every scheme, but he's going to continue to use what he's been successful with and believes in. That means they're going to find players that are scheme-specific and if Tebow isn't (I believe he can be) then they're going to move on and find a quarterback who is. If Tebow can only flourish in an offense like McDaniels' then they'll trade him to a team that thinks they can win with him in that scheme.

People are severely over complicating the Tebow situation. It's pretty simple, in my opinion. Build the defense through the draft, start Tebow for the year, and see what happens. If he sucks, no one's really expecting the Broncos to compete anyway and they'll have a shot at Luck. If he shows promise, you have your quarterback. It really is that simple.

jsco70
04-08-2011, 05:38 PM
What are the chances that Elway, knowing how Tebow uses the critics to drive his success, is using all the fanfare about drafting a QB to fire him up? I'm sure Tebow is probably throwing slant routes to some former college teamate as I type this. Perhaps Elway is as smart as his Stanford education indicates?

Tombstone RJ
04-08-2011, 05:52 PM
That's very true, but I think Fox and Elway are trying to install a consistent scheme on both offense and defense. Fox is smart enough that he knows every scheme, but he's going to continue to use what he's been successful with and believes in. That means they're going to find players that are scheme-specific and if Tebow isn't (I believe he can be) then they're going to move on and find a quarterback who is. If Tebow can only flourish in an offense like McDaniels' then they'll trade him to a team that thinks they can win with him in that scheme.

People are severely over complicating the Tebow situation. It's pretty simple, in my opinion. Build the defense through the draft, start Tebow for the year, and see what happens. If he sucks, no one's really expecting the Broncos to compete anyway and they'll have a shot at Luck. If he shows promise, you have your quarterback. It really is that simple.

I don't really agree. My point is that you take the talent you have and put them in systems that will make them successful. You don't pound a system just to pound it. You can win with different systems, and the ones who execute their systems the best, have the most success. You can't really argue that one particular system is better than the next, but you can argue that whoever executes their particular system the best, will win.

Also, what if the Broncos go 6-10, 7-9 or 8-8 with Tebow starting? Do they look for a new QB then, or is they gonna continue with Tebow?

If Tebow starts this coming season, it's only his second season and it will be the his first season in the NFL where he is the starter, and, he's in a new system.

So again, it ain't all that simple. If Tebow struggles do you give up, or do you realize it will take some more time?

I say keep Orton, he will most likely win out over Tebow, let Tebow grow another year and then decide if you want to start him in 2012. Again, Tebow will probably play at some point and time simply because Orton can't stay healthy. Also, there is a possibility that Tebow will flat out win the starting position. Or, there is a third possibility and that is that Orton will struggle as the starter and Fox will start Tebow at some point and time later in the season.

I think Fox likes Tebow. I read somewhere that he interviewed Tebow last year and that the Panthers were seriously considering drafting him. I think Fox will see what he has in Tebow before the Broncos pull the trigger on a 1st round QB.

Also, Fox won a lot of game with Jake Delhomme. Seriously, ponder that for a minute. If Fox can win with a redneck moron like Delhomme, what do you think he can do with the Big Tebowski?

TailgateNut
04-08-2011, 05:52 PM
While it was a GREAT 4th quarter performance, the Texans defense was as bad as Denver's last year overall and their passing defense was by far the worst in the league.


Funny how some of the Tebowners don't underdstand these MINOR stats which MAY have something to do with his GREATNESS!:giggle:

Bronco Vixen
04-08-2011, 05:54 PM
What are the chances that Elway, knowing how Tebow uses the critics to drive his success, is using all the fanfare about drafting a QB to fire him up? I'm sure Tebow is probably throwing slant routes to some former college teamate as I type this. Perhaps Elway is as smart as his Stanford education indicates?

My guess...about the same as someone snapping some Josh Hamilton pics of Tebow doing blow off of a stripper this weekend.

MacGruder
04-08-2011, 05:55 PM
If Tebow can only flourish in an offense like McDaniels

But see.. you switched it.. why does Tebow only have to adapt to Fox and not the other way around?

Can Fox only flourish in one type of offense? So he needs players to fit in that system..

Steve Young said we were witnessing greatness with Tebow playing his style.. Vick was MVP playing a similar style.

The question is would ANY QB succeed playing against their strengths and instincts they developed their whole career? Tebow is asked to change simply because he is different.. regardless of how successful he is doing it.

MacGruder
04-08-2011, 05:58 PM
Funny how some of the Tebowners don't underdstand these MINOR stats which MAY have something to do with his GREATNESS!:giggle:

Not really.. because when you factor in what a terrible situation it was the defenses really doesn't matter.. he beat a vet QB on the other side playing a D just as bad in the Broncos. Tebow dramatically outplayed Orton when Orton was playing the Cardinals who were even worse than the Texans and had a terrible QB.

OABB
04-08-2011, 06:14 PM
Funny how some of the Tebowners don't underdstand these MINOR stats which MAY have something to do with his GREATNESS!:giggle:

No, we get it. Really we do. The question is why don't you see reality clearly?if tebow weren't such a goody two shoed Christian, how would you feel? Honestly.

JDB7821
04-08-2011, 06:18 PM
I don't really agree. My point is that you take the talent you have and put them in systems that will make them successful. You don't pound a system just to pound it. You can win with different systems, and the ones who execute their systems the best, have the most success. You can't really argue that one particular system is better than the next, but you can argue that whoever executes their particular system the best, will win.

Also, what if the Broncos go 6-10, 7-9 or 8-8 with Tebow starting? Do they look for a new QB then, or is they gonna continue with Tebow?

If Tebow starts this coming season, it's only his second season and it will be the his first season in the NFL where he is the starter, and, he's in a new system.

So again, it ain't all that simple. If Tebow struggles do you give up, or do you realize it will take some more time?

I say keep Orton, he will most likely win out over Tebow, let Tebow grow another year and then decide if you want to start him in 2012. Again, Tebow will probably play at some point and time simply because Orton can't stay healthy. Also, there is a possibility that Tebow will flat out win the starting position. Or, there is a third possibility and that is that Orton will struggle as the starter and Fox will start Tebow at some point and time later in the season.

I think Fox likes Tebow. I read somewhere that he interviewed Tebow last year and that the Panthers were seriously considering drafting him. I think Fox will see what he has in Tebow before the Broncos pull the trigger on a 1st round QB.

Also, Fox won a lot of game with Jake Delhomme. Seriously, ponder that for a minute. If Fox can win with a redneck moron like Delhomme, what do you think he can do with the Big Tebowski?

I think you do install a system and stay true to it. Fox isn't going to suddenly stray from what he knows, which is running the ball to set up the pass. You can tinker with the system to meet specific players, but it's largely going to be exactly the same. You stay true to a system and acquire players that fit it. You don't draft a man to man corner to play zone in your scheme. Just like you don't try to make a spread quarterback run a scheme he won't be successful with. The point I'm trying to make is that I believe the quarterback will change much quicker than Fox's scheme. If Tebow doesn't fit his scheme (and again, I believe he can) then you find a guy that does.

I hate to always bring the Falcons into the conversation, but after watching many years of what doesn't work I finally get to see what DOES work with our current staff. Dimitroff's philosophy is drafting scheme-specific players and the best player available at a position of need. I think John Fox and Mike Smith are very similar coaches with regards to their scheme and honestly it's hard to see Tebow in our scheme. Christian Ponder is the most like Matt Ryan, in my opinion.

But again, just to make it clear, I think Tebow can develop in that scheme, you just have to give him a chance to find out.

JDB7821
04-08-2011, 06:22 PM
But see.. you switched it.. why does Tebow only have to adapt to Fox and not the other way around?

Can Fox only flourish in one type of offense? So he needs players to fit in that system..

Steve Young said we were witnessing greatness with Tebow playing his style.. Vick was MVP playing a similar style.

The question is would ANY QB succeed playing against their strengths and instincts they developed their whole career? Tebow is asked to change simply because he is different.. regardless of how successful he is doing it.

Tebow has to adapt to Fox because he's the head coach. Players will come and go, but Fox (hopefully for you guys) will be around a long time. Fox just inherited the team, it wouldn't be wise to adapt his style to fit the current players. That's not how you turn a team around. You purge the roster of guys that don't fit and bring in more talented guys that fit your scheme. As a coach, you don't go changing your style that has a proven track record. You keep to it and find the players that fit the scheme.

Tombstone RJ
04-08-2011, 06:25 PM
I think you do install a system and stay true to it. Fox isn't going to suddenly stray from what he knows, which is running the ball to set up the pass. You can tinker with the system to meet specific players, but it's largely going to be exactly the same. You stay true to a system and acquire players that fit it. You don't draft a man to man corner to play zone in your scheme. Just like you don't try to make a spread quarterback run a scheme he won't be successful with. The point I'm trying to make is that I believe the quarterback will change much quicker than Fox's scheme. If Tebow doesn't fit his scheme (and again, I believe he can) then you find a guy that does.

I hate to always bring the Falcons into the conversation, but after watching many years of what doesn't work I finally get to see what DOES work with our current staff. Dimitroff's philosophy is drafting scheme-specific players and the best player available at a position of need. I think John Fox and Mike Smith are very similar coaches with regards to their scheme and honestly it's hard to see Tebow in our scheme. Christian Ponder is the most like Matt Ryan, in my opinion.

But again, just to make it clear, I think Tebow can develop in that scheme, you just have to give him a chance to find out.

I agree with drafting scheme specific players and to have a scheme on offense and a scheme on defense. What I don't agree with is taking a talent like Tebow and forcing the him to adapt to the scheme. I say tweak the scheme to fit him and amplify his strengths. Again, good coaches can do this.

We know Jake Delhomme did well in Foxes system. I'm feeling very comfortable that Tebow will be able to work in Foxes system too. That being said, I hope that Fox tweaks, modifys and adapts his "system" to make Tebow the best possible QB he can be in that offensive system.

epicSocialism4tw
04-08-2011, 06:30 PM
Tebow has it. We all saw it last year. There's something there. He had some really successful moments, especially for a rookie, and his numbers were comparable to the rookie of the year Bradford.

JDB7821
04-08-2011, 06:51 PM
Tebow has it. We all saw it last year. There's something there. He had some really successful moments, especially for a rookie, and his numbers were comparable to the rookie of the year Bradford.

I agree, that's why I think he can develop in this scheme. Knowshon got the ball more late in the season when McDaniels was fired, which is what Tebow should be ready for in Fox's system. If the lockout goes through training camp, however, I think Orton will start and all of this arguing won't matter.

Hamrob
04-08-2011, 07:39 PM
The Weasal Clayton, the jelly donut Williamson and the space ship head Kiper bag on Tebow and people care? **** them!!!

John Fox likes to run the ball. Tim Tebow is going to be excellent for the Denver Broncos. We will mix the run and pass 50-50 with Tebow and kick some ass. Look for Leshure in round 2 of this years draft. We will take Dareus at #2 or trade back for more picks. Then in round 2 we will take a LB and a RB.

We will improve our defense, improve our running game and Tebow will "Lead". Fox knows it, Elway knows it, and fans who know anything about the Broncos...know it!

There is no QB in this draft better than Tebow. I think Ponder will end up the best of the group with Dalton turning into another Dilfer type starter down the road.

Newton is a stud (physically), but he has nothing between the ears! VY2!!!

Gabbert looks the part...but, does he have the leadership ability to win? He reminds me of Stafford without the gun.

As for Andrew Luck....is he the next Peyton Manning. I don't think so. I think he's the next Eli Manning. I'd rather have a leader like Tebow!!!

gyldenlove
04-08-2011, 08:40 PM
I agree with drafting scheme specific players and to have a scheme on offense and a scheme on defense. What I don't agree with is taking a talent like Tebow and forcing the him to adapt to the scheme. I say tweak the scheme to fit him and amplify his strengths. Again, good coaches can do this.

We know Jake Delhomme did well in Foxes system. I'm feeling very comfortable that Tebow will be able to work in Foxes system too. That being said, I hope that Fox tweaks, modifys and adapts his "system" to make Tebow the best possible QB he can be in that offensive system.

Fox is not an offensive type guy, he is pretty hands off in general and specifically with the offense, I think Mccoy, Gase, Studesville and Magazu will all have a lot of say, and 3 of those guys have worked with Tebow for a year so they know a lot about how to use him.

I really believe Tebow is a guy who can win with a good defense, if you give him a shot in every game he is going to take it more often than not.

zdoor
04-08-2011, 09:12 PM
I totally understand why people are skeptical of Tebow, what I dont understand is this notion that he hasn't earned a chance to prove himself. its absurd. He has shown potential playing against NFL level talent. Does he have a lot of work to do? Sure...but what NFL rookie qb doesnt? Jay Cutler had a very up and down rookie year, but it was unanimously agreed that he'd be the starter the next season.

Totally agree

Arkie
04-08-2011, 09:21 PM
We could probably use another #3 quarterback. I don't think Quinn will ever get a fair shot, in Denver. If the quarterback is good enough, he MAY even pass Tebow for the #2 spot...

Quinn could be a decent #4 QB in this league. I have no doubts about that, but we need to find a legitimate #3 QB.
















;)

BroncoMan4ever
04-08-2011, 10:13 PM
Kiper said Jamarcus Russell was going to be the next Elway. so when it comes to QB talk I would rather take the advice of a retarded chimp than him.

Beantown Bronco
04-09-2011, 04:51 AM
Tebow dramatically outplayed Orton when Orton was playing the Cardinals who were even worse than the Texans and had a terrible QB.

Worse? I'm not saying the Cards were great or anything, but your claim is just plain false.

The Cards passing defense was ranked 23rd last year.
The Texans were ranked dead last.

Opposing QBs posted a QB rating of 83.5 against the Cards, 100.5 against the Texans.

The Cards passing TDs given up/INT ratio = 22:17
The Texans passing TD/INT ratio = 33:13

Cleo McDowell
04-09-2011, 04:55 AM
You got to give Tebow a shot and focus this draft on installing John Fox's defense.

The speed with which you build Fox's defense also completely changes the scale you're grading Tebow by. If Fox can put something together like in his prime years in Carolina defensively and add something even close to that in the running game then the standard for Tebow to be a franchise QB dramatically.

Tebow in games decided by a touchdown or less is going to be a monster. He showed us that last year against Oakland with a joke game plan against a top 10 defense, and then again against San Diego against the statistical #1 D and O, not just against Houston. You put Tebow in a game where he's got to make a play and the kid finds a way to make a play. Give him a D and a running game, then watch that rare talent produce wins for you.

this

MacGruder
04-09-2011, 07:17 AM
Worse? I'm not saying the Cards were great or anything, but your claim is just plain false.

The Cards passing defense was ranked 23rd last year.
The Texans were ranked dead last.

Opposing QBs posted a QB rating of 83.5 against the Cards, 100.5 against the Texans.

The Cards passing TDs given up/INT ratio = 22:17
The Texans passing TD/INT ratio = 33:13

They had a QB that shouldn't have even been on Orton's or Tebow's level.. and he outplayed Orton.

Don't go by numbers.. teams play so well against Orton because he is so lacking in explosiveness. Have you heard of offense being defense? Because it puts pressure on a team to score.. Orton is the COMPLETE opposite. He takes pressure OFF opposing teams which helps them score.

Cito Pelon
04-09-2011, 08:04 AM
I like this guy:

However, former Carolina and St. Louis draft executive Tony Softli said he had Tebow ranked as a low second-round pick last year when he was with the Rams. He said he wouldn’t draft a quarterback this year. He believes in Tebow. Softli raved about Tebow’s leadership ability, his history as a winner and his intelligence. Softli said Tebow, Matt Ryan, Bradford and Josh Freeman were the brightest quarterback prospects he’s seen in the past 10 years when it came to working on the grease board and breaking down the game.

“I understand why Denver is looking at quarterbacks -- they’re doing their homework and that’s smart -- but I think Tebow is going to be the guy,” Softli said. “I think the Broncos should forget about his throwing motion and just let him be who he is. His intangibles are off the charts. When it’s Tebow Time, he’ll show he’s the answer.”

I guess some of these 2011 QB prospects have some skills that will translate to the NFL, and if Elway & Co. feel the need to draft one of them that's fine with me. It's their reputation on the line, not mine.

But from my armchair I'd stick with the current QB's, use the draft to build elsewhere. I think that's the best bet at this point.

Tebow has proven the NFL is not too big of a stage for him. It looked to me like he knows what he's doing on the field.

Beantown Bronco
04-09-2011, 09:04 AM
They had a QB that shouldn't have even been on Orton's or Tebow's level.. and he outplayed Orton.

Different argument entirely. Arizona's defense was not worse than Houston's. That's all I said.

Don't go by numbers.. teams play so well against Orton because he is so lacking in explosiveness. Have you heard of offense being defense? Because it puts pressure on a team to score.. Orton is the COMPLETE opposite. He takes pressure OFF opposing teams which helps them score.

Our lack of running game and two rookies on the OLine had more to do with that then anything. When a team has shown ZERO threat to run the ball, and a lack of cohesion in pass protection, it makes the game that much easier on the opposing defense. This isn't even debatable.

If Orton had a real lack of explosiveness, then he wouldn't have been leading the league in 40+ yard passing plays at the halfway mark of the season.

yerner
04-09-2011, 03:53 PM
Tebow throws like a woman.

epicSocialism4tw
04-09-2011, 03:58 PM
Tebow throws like a woman.

He throws like a massive guy with massive shoulders.