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rugbythug
03-26-2011, 07:27 PM
One thing I really liked about McD was:

They way he treated the Draft. On Draft Day (not Defending his dumping draft picks for some marginal value when he panicked in season). He had Players he wanted he then put himself in a position to go and get those players. This is the Bill Walsh model for drafting. And Something I would really like to see continue. Yes you can argue the actual players, However this does not devalue the concept. Each Team is made up of 45 Players who dress on Game Day. With 270+ drafted, each team knows not every player will fit their style and Team. Better to find the 20 guys you think will be great and go get them then to Rank every Tom Dick and Harry and end up with who no one else wants.

Mogulseeker
03-26-2011, 07:56 PM
Honestly, I don't think he drafted particularly poorly. The lack of defense was just too much to overcome.

tsiguy96
03-26-2011, 07:58 PM
Honestly, I don't think he drafted particularly poorly. The lack of defense was just too much to overcome.

agree 100%. the players he got in general werent too bad, but a few big blunders overshadows the rest in most peoples eyes. i really like demaryius potential, ayers has the ability as well, and moreno, maybe with a run first coach he will finally break out? and tebow again has the potential to be very exciting. mcds guys havent broken out yet, but they have all shown flashes of huge potential, just hope fox can bring that out.

bronco militia
03-26-2011, 08:48 PM
too bad mcdumbass couldn't get along with the offensive players already on the roster when he got here. He could have drafted some better defensive players for the worst defense in the league.

Tombstone RJ
03-26-2011, 09:11 PM
mcd also invested in some offensive lineman which was nice, hopefully Fox will invest in defensive lineman in this draft.

NFLBRONCO
03-26-2011, 09:18 PM
I thought he drafted bad really if you think about it.

1. Moreno not worth the 12th pick and not biggest need either.
2. Smith trade beyond retarded.
3. Quinn TE why did we draft him and trade picks to get him?

SoCalBronco
03-26-2011, 09:22 PM
Not a fan of 100 player draft boards or doing whatever it takes to "get your guy". Sometimes its better to settle for alternative No. 1 or No. 2 at a spot then give up value left and right just to get your most preferred choice. McDaniels never respected the institution of the draft. Constantly trading picks for scrubs was inexcusable.

spdirty
03-26-2011, 10:13 PM
I thought he drafted bad really if you think about it.

1. Moreno not worth the 12th pick and not biggest need either.
2. Smith trade beyond retarded.
3. Quinn TE why did we draft him and trade picks to get him?

And before McD nuthuggers come out and bitch about how great hindsight is, they should remember that at least 75% of the fanbase despised that draft ON DRAFT DAY!

Jetmeck
03-26-2011, 10:41 PM
He was a freakin idiot. Offense needed tweaked not overhauled. My grandma knew we needed defense............... The idiot set us back several years **** him ....

tsiguy96
03-26-2011, 10:49 PM
so much bitterness!

Taco John
03-26-2011, 10:50 PM
I liked how McD would trade things like next years number one draft pick for this year's second round draft pick. That kind of dedication to go after the guy you've GOT to have was really special. Plus, I liked how he would dump that guy that he HAD to have the next year, showing that he's not too proud to admit he makes huge mistakes. Plus it was kind of neat how he would dump a 10 touchdown runningback, and replace him with Lawrence Maroney. It takes special kind of preperation to have personnel skills this good. Hopefully John Fox can learn something from the way Josh McDaniels prepared and built the team. It's just too bad that Josh didn't leave a guide, or maybe some film on the subject.

Jetmeck
03-26-2011, 11:07 PM
I liked how McD would trade things like next years number one draft pick for this year's second round draft pick. That kind of dedication to go after the guy you've GOT to have was really special. Plus, I liked how he would dump that guy that he HAD to have the next year, showing that he's not too proud to admit he makes huge mistakes. Plus it was kind of neat how he would dump a 10 touchdown runningback, and replace him with Lawrence Maroney. It takes special kind of preperation to have personnel skills this good. Hopefully John Fox can learn something from the way Josh McDaniels prepared and built the team. It's just too bad that Josh didn't leave a guide, or maybe some film on the subject.

Sarcasm and some FILM llllll ah I see..............said the blind man !

KipCorrington25
03-27-2011, 01:29 AM
Moren, Ayers, Quinn, Smith, Thomas, McBath... all busts

Tebow and Beadles are maybes

Yeah, this guy is an idiot, eff him and the horse he rode in on.

DHallblows
03-27-2011, 01:55 AM
Moren, Ayers, Quinn, Smith, Thomas, McBath... all busts

Tebow and Beadles are maybes

Yeah, this guy is an idiot, eff him and the horse he rode in on.

You're jumping the ****ing gun on calling some of those guys busts, jesus...

tsiguy96
03-27-2011, 07:22 AM
You're jumping the ****ing gun on calling some of those guys busts, jesus...

some people here hate mcd so much that they instantly hate all his draft picks too.

2KBack
03-27-2011, 07:26 AM
I like how the op specifically states that he understands that the players chosen were less than ideal, but was in favor of the draft philosophy and immediately everyone starts yelling about the players that were picked.

Dr. Broncenstein
03-27-2011, 07:46 AM
I like how he got shiatcanned in less than 2 years. That was my favorite thing about McD.

Missouribronc
03-27-2011, 07:48 AM
I thought he drafted bad really if you think about it.

1. Moreno not worth the 12th pick and not biggest need either.

Can't argue the biggest need, it wasn't, but Moreno was Top 20 in all-purpose yards in his first two seasons. In a different system (especially Fox's) he's probably a 1200, 1300-yard back.

2. Smith trade beyond retarded.

Can't argue. Stupid move, and then trading him before developing him was even worse. What was the return for Smith? Gronkowski and a pick?

3. Quinn TE why did we draft him and trade picks to get him?

Not a particularly smart move. Maybe he starts at TE for eight seasons in Denver, but right now, I don't see it.

rugbythug
03-27-2011, 07:49 AM
I like how the op specifically states that he understands that the players chosen were less than ideal, but was in favor of the draft philosophy and immediately everyone starts yelling about the players that were picked.

Concepts are hard for the om

CEH
03-27-2011, 08:20 AM
One thing I really liked about McD was:

They way he treated the Draft. On Draft Day (not Defending his dumping draft picks for some marginal value when he panicked in season). He had Players he wanted he then put himself in a position to go and get those players. This is the Bill Walsh model for drafting. And Something I would really like to see continue. Yes you can argue the actual players, However this does not devalue the concept. Each Team is made up of 45 Players who dress on Game Day. With 270+ drafted, each team knows not every player will fit their style and Team. Better to find the 20 guys you think will be great and go get them then to Rank every Tom Dick and Harry and end up with who no one else wants.

Actually I'd say Shanny drafted like Walsh. Walsh like to draft players with talent but with injury concerns. Rarely did he trade up . Rice but Walsh had no #1s as much as he had a #1. If you meant he would trade out of the first round sure if that is what you meant by getting his players. His greatest draft and one of the best in history was when he kept trading back 1981

McD was a horrible builder of a football team and lacked the vision of Bill Walsh

2010 the way they manipulated the draft was great but the bottomline is the draft is where you build your team and Josh failed miserably. Hopefully the strategy was more Xanders who now has a guy in FOx that knows defensive talent.

Cito Pelon
03-27-2011, 08:32 AM
One thing I really liked about McD was:

They way he treated the Draft. On Draft Day (not Defending his dumping draft picks for some marginal value when he panicked in season). He had Players he wanted he then put himself in a position to go and get those players. This is the Bill Walsh model for drafting. And Something I would really like to see continue. Yes you can argue the actual players, However this does not devalue the concept. Each Team is made up of 45 Players who dress on Game Day. With 270+ drafted, each team knows not every player will fit their style and Team. Better to find the 20 guys you think will be great and go get them then to Rank every Tom Dick and Harry and end up with who no one else wants.

I guess there's two draft philosophies - go get the guys you want, or wait and see who falls into your lap and draft the best one of them.

I guess it's the old conundrum, drafting for need vs. drafting BPA.

elsid13
03-27-2011, 08:47 AM
I actually hate the Bobby Berthard method of drafting (go getting your guy). I think makes the FO have blinders on that hurt you in the long run because you will trade away picks and depth to go get a guy that most like going to be out of the league in 3 years.

Cito Pelon
03-27-2011, 09:06 AM
As for the players drafted, they made some picks that hopefully will be good solid players for the new regime, maybe a few of them can get into the 'great' category.

Moreno, Ayers, Thomas, Beadles, Decker, Squid, Cox, Tebow, McBath, Bruton, Quinn, Phonz, Eric Olsen, Seth Olsen, Jammie Kirlew, McKinley, Brandstater, Blake Schlueter, Walton those are the 19 draft picks by McD.

Four #1's, four #2's, two #3's, two #4's, two #5's, two #6's, three #7's.

Cassius Vaughn and Kyle McCarthy were UDFA's.

So far, not so good, but hopefully those that are left on the roster can be a decent core for the new regime to build with.

Tombstone RJ
03-27-2011, 10:03 AM
Let's just hope the new front office can do better than both Shanny and McD, although I think it's too early to say McD's drafts weren't good. We know that out of 14 years Shanny had maybe 3 good drafts and that is just not acceptable.

orange skier
03-27-2011, 10:13 AM
I am so glad he's gone, so glad. Once the picks are "ours", I love every one of them, and will continue to cheer these guys on, and I'm hoping the Fox turns this thing around, and develops them all into huge stars. When Shanny left, I felt our offense was top ten, and our defense was two to three guys away from being very good.......McD left us in a mess. I am so glad he's gone.

NASurfer
03-27-2011, 10:29 AM
Honestly, I don't think he drafted particularly poorly. The lack of defense was just too much to overcome.
You can only address so many needs in one offseason.

He chose to rebuild the offense (first round triplets QB, RB WR) and band aid the defense.

A year and a half in we pulled the plug... of course there was concern McD wasn't a leader of men so that played a factor too besides performance.

mattob14
03-27-2011, 11:24 AM
I think it really depends on which draft we're looking at. 2009 was horribly mis-managed, especially those 2nd and 3rd round picks. Trading a future #1 for Smith was bad enough, but then it was compounded by reaching for McBath and Quinn. I really think Denver could've used the 2nd they spent on McBath, plus their 4th (Bruton) to land Smith if they really wanted him, then make a similar trade to the Quinn deal to land McBath at the back end of round 2. They would've missed out on Quinn and Bruton, but I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that those two were worth a 2010 #1.

2010 was much better, imo. I liked moving down and acquiring picks, then still landing their top target in Thomas (who I still think was a solid selection), then using the extra picks to move back up into round 1. I'll admit, I wasn't thrilled to see that pick go to Tebow, but I'm hoping he'll prove me wrong.

ColoradoDarin
03-27-2011, 11:59 AM
I just don't care anymore. McDaniels is not our coach now. Let's hope Elway, Fox and Xanders (EFX) draft well this year and for decades to come. Past is past.

Mogulseeker
03-27-2011, 12:14 PM
agree 100%. the players he got in general werent too bad, but a few big blunders overshadows the rest in most peoples eyes. i really like demaryius potential, ayers has the ability as well, and moreno, maybe with a run first coach he will finally break out? and tebow again has the potential to be very exciting. mcds guys havent broken out yet, but they have all shown flashes of huge potential, just hope fox can bring that out.

Moreno has a ton of talent and is a complete back - he doesn't have breakaway speed, but he has COD, plays bigger than he is and can block and catch. BUT he will never be a number one back because of his lack of stamina and durability. I can see him as a very solid 1a option with a speed back to compliment him.


Moren, Ayers, Quinn, Smith, Thomas, McBath... all busts

Tebow and Beadles are maybes

Yeah, this guy is an idiot, eff him and the horse he rode in on.

Waaaaaay too early to tell.

Moreno is an excellent back but lacks stamina.

Ayers was our best defensive player last year, and looks like he is going to be pretty solid for a long time.

Quinn = bust.

Smith is not so much a bust as he is a poorly mismanaged player. He's done well in Detroit.

To call Thomas a bust already is ridiculously stupid. A. He's hardly played. B. his talent definitley warrants a first rounder. C. He's played very well in the action he's received.

McBath is also a player who has looked really good when healthy.

Cito Pelon
03-27-2011, 12:17 PM
One good thing about the McD drafts was the better special teams play with McBath, Bruton, Squid, Vaughn. The team got faster and more physical.

I'm very curious to see if the OL guys drafted by McD (Beadles, Walton, Olsen) can form an OL corps for years to come with Clady, Kuper, and Harris.

Missouribronc
03-27-2011, 12:31 PM
BUT he will never be a number one back because of his lack of stamina and durability.

I'm not sure we can know this for sure because of the spottiness of McDaniels' running back rotations.

Cito Pelon
03-27-2011, 12:42 PM
I'm not sure we can know this for sure because of the spottiness of McDaniels' running back rotations.

I still believe in Moreno. He's a solid all-around back.

rugbythug
03-27-2011, 01:04 PM
It seems to me people get caught up in making sure the value is there. My problem with that is that players have value and draft picks are just a slot to select a player. If you think a guy will be a player you need to get him. Yes it is best to have as many bites at the apple as you can but not at the sake of missing your guy.

DrFate
03-27-2011, 03:32 PM
His drafts were terrible. Unless Tebow pans out, they will have been epic level fail, considering the number of round one and two picks.

tsiguy96
03-27-2011, 03:40 PM
His drafts were terrible. Unless Tebow pans out, they will have been epic level fail, considering the number of round one and two picks.

yea, because moreno, ayers, demaryius are all but goners....

db56
03-27-2011, 04:13 PM
both of McD's drafts were less than average imo. the first draft he wasnt prepared for and the players drafted will back that up.

the second was better, but to state he had "Bill Walsh" type vision is just laughable.

and for the record, I am not a McD hater and I lay more blame on Mr. Bowlen for the blunder than anyone else. You cant hire a rookie HC without an experienced GM with the vision to run the show...

broncosteven
03-27-2011, 04:17 PM
I liked how McD would trade things like next years number one draft pick for this year's second round draft pick. That kind of dedication to go after the guy you've GOT to have was really special. Plus, I liked how he would dump that guy that he HAD to have the next year, showing that he's not too proud to admit he makes huge mistakes. Plus it was kind of neat how he would dump a 10 touchdown runningback, and replace him with Lawrence Maroney. It takes special kind of preperation to have personnel skills this good. Hopefully John Fox can learn something from the way Josh McDaniels prepared and built the team. It's just too bad that Josh didn't leave a guide, or maybe some film on the subject.

You got to love how mCd wasn't afraid to bring in an over the hill Vet like Ty Law because he was not afraid to lose a CB who he traded a future #1 pick in order to try to motivate him in some strange way I still don't understand.

broncosteven
03-27-2011, 04:18 PM
yea, because moreno, ayers, demaryius are all but goners....

More because in 2 years all we have to show for it is 3 guys who have yet to break out.

elsid13
03-27-2011, 04:20 PM
I still believe in Moreno. He's a solid all-around back.

I don't. I have never seen anything (speed, power,hands, feet in hole) that make him special. He is an so-so NFL back that remind me of Derrick Loville, nice back up but nothing special.

rugbythug
03-27-2011, 04:31 PM
both of McD's drafts were less than average imo. the first draft he wasnt prepared for and the players drafted will back that up.

the second was better, but to state he had "Bill Walsh" type vision is just laughable.

and for the record, I am not a McD hater and I lay more blame on Mr. Bowlen for the blunder than anyone else. You cant hire a rookie HC without an experienced GM with the vision to run the show...

Right cause that is what I said.

rugbythug
03-27-2011, 04:34 PM
I don't. I have never seen anything (speed, power,hands, feet in hole) that make him special. He is an so-so NFL back that remind me of Derrick Loville, nice back up but nothing special.

I have seen him play at a High Enough level to be better than NFL Avg. However I don't think the Run Schemes we used last year were up to Snuff.

_Oro_
03-27-2011, 04:37 PM
Just to support Rugby a little... They way McD navigated the draft last year and was able to pick up the guys he wanted, Tebow and Thomas, was amazing.

TDmvp
03-27-2011, 04:37 PM
I don't. I have never seen anything (speed, power,hands, feet in hole) that make him special. He is an so-so NFL back that remind me of Derrick Loville, nice back up but nothing special.

Yup , and i'd much rather had Clay Matthews Brian Orakpo or who knows maybe even Cushing....


Just so sick of us using 1st rounders on crap that aint must have ....

TDmvp
03-27-2011, 04:38 PM
Just to support Rugby a little... They way McD navigated the draft last year and was able to pick up the guys he wanted, Tebow and Thomas, was amazing.

Reach ... hehehe

BroncoBuff
03-27-2011, 04:43 PM
He had Players he wanted he then put himself in a position to go and get those players. This is the Bill Walsh model for drafting. And Something I would really like to see continue. Yes you can argue the actual players, However this does not devalue the concept.

I agree, last year anyway. Pretty slick how they moved in and out and still landed the guy they wanted, Tebow. After picking Demaryous it was impressive how they jumped right back into Round 1.

But for that strategy to work you have to target the right guy, and I don't think he ever did that. And beyond talent evaluation mistakes, there were common sense mistakes, like WRs in 1st and 3rd, both with bad wheels? We'll see, but that's tempting fate I think ... plus over-paying for Richard Quinn, etc.

I like the the ballsy strategy you're talking about, but to make it work you have to have actual balls.

rugbythug
03-27-2011, 04:49 PM
Just to support Rugby a little... They way McD navigated the draft last year and was able to pick up the guys he wanted, Tebow and Thomas, was amazing.

even if I was hoping for Bryan Bulaga and Dan Williams. I cursed a blue streak at the Tebow pick. And thought the Thomas pick was reactionary. Which I hate.

rugbythug
03-27-2011, 04:51 PM
I agree, last year anyway. Pretty slick how they moved in and out and still landed the guy they wanted, Tebow. After picking Demaryous it was impressive how they jumped right back into Round 1.

But for that strategy to work you have to target the right guy, and I don't think he ever did that. And beyond talent evaluation mistakes, there were common sense mistakes, like WRs in 1st and 3rd, both with bad wheels? We'll see, but that's tempting fate I think ... plus over-paying for Richard Quinn, etc.

I like the the ballsy strategy you're talking about, but to make it work you have to have actual balls.

McD had giant brass ones. He could not delegate. He was Napoleonic. Could not work with others. This is a unforgivable sin for a leader. Plus his scouting was suspect.

BroncoBuff
03-27-2011, 04:56 PM
Ever hear how in the old days when teams had basically zero scouting budgets, they drafted "out of Street and Smiths"?

It would be interesting to go back to these drafts, and for each of our picks, substitute the highest guy left on the Street and Smith board, or McShay or SI, whatever. What would the roster look like now.

WolfpackGuy
03-27-2011, 05:01 PM
He sucked and threw away A LOT of good draft picks trying to replace self inflicted roster wounds.

BroncoBuff
03-27-2011, 05:12 PM
McD had giant brass ones. He could not delegate. He was Napoleonic.

You're right of course, but in this instance by balls I meant solid scouting and talent evaluation.

And definitely yes on the delegation issue. You want a bit of Napoleon in your head coach, but the situation when Josh was hired cried out that delegation be thrust upon him. Downside: Just a kid, first time head coach. Upside: Offensive boy-genius. What he did with Cassell that year was amazing.

I'm a broken record, but maybe concentrate on just the offense until you're grounded, comfortable. That was the right plan. Cutting him loose from Day 1, that was Bowlen and Ellis' mistake, and it was big one.


Don't push me here, or I'll be forced to raise the Jim Goodman issue.

BroncoBuff
03-27-2011, 05:36 PM
One good thing about the McD drafts was the special teams play with McBath, Bruton, Squid, Vaughn.

But Mrs. Lincoln, OTHER than that, how was the play?

Mogulseeker
03-27-2011, 07:08 PM
One good thing about the McD drafts was the better special teams play with McBath, Bruton, Squid, Vaughn. The team got faster and more physical.

I'm very curious to see if the OL guys drafted by McD (Beadles, Walton, Olsen) can form an OL corps for years to come with Clady, Kuper, and Harris.

Big to differ on the speed thing. One thing that annoyed me is that this team got considerably slower during McD's tenure.

2KBack
03-28-2011, 05:12 AM
Big to differ on the speed thing. One thing that annoyed me is that this team got considerably slower during McD's tenure.

Just for the sake of conversation, where did they get slower? I know we went bigger on Defense to accommodate a 3-4, but off the top of my head I can't think of where the team got slower.

WolfpackGuy
03-28-2011, 06:51 AM
Big to differ on the speed thing. One thing that annoyed me is that this team got considerably slower during McD's tenure.

Leave Orton and Moreno alone!

Watching Dawkins plod several steps behind Patrick Crayton for 25 yards in the first SD game was pretty damn sad.

DrFate
03-28-2011, 06:53 AM
yea, because moreno, ayers, demaryius are all but goners....

I've gone over this before, but I'll do it again for your benefit.

Moreno is a bust. The average lifespan of an NFL running back is 4 years or a bit less. The #12 pick OVERALL has more than 50% of his expected career in the book, and he's a rotational back. For the #12 pick overall, that's a disaster.

Ayers and Thomas have both shown some flashes. Ayers has also shown an inability to be consistent and Thomas has shown an inability to stay on the field. For first round picks, not the production I'd hoped for. I won't say either one is 'done' because I surely don't know. But what they've displayed to date isn't overwhelming.

The silly trades (next year's #1 for this year's #2) and the picks of Smith and Smith speak for themselves. The McDaniels draft history will be judged, in the end, on Tebow. Trading 3 picks for Tebow was an immense gamble. If he becomes a star, it will look like a ballsy pick. If he fails, you are potentially looking at Cutler, Marshall, and the 'standard' allotment of picks being turned into very very little.

To be entirely fair, I guess McDaniels did 'earn' the #2 pick overall for 2011, maybe if Fox/Elway find a keeper there, we can give McD partial credit for that one. ROFL!

Broncomutt
03-28-2011, 07:07 AM
I like how he got shiatcanned in less than 2 years. That was my favorite thing about McD.

This. A real testament to his genius.

When do you think his Ring of Fame induction will be?

tsiguy96
03-28-2011, 07:07 AM
I've gone over this before, but I'll do it again for your benefit.

Moreno is a bust. The average lifespan of an NFL running back is 4 years or a bit less. The #12 pick OVERALL has more than 50% of his expected career in the book, and he's a rotational back. For the #12 pick overall, that's a disaster.

Ayers and Thomas have both shown some flashes. Ayers has also shown an inability to be consistent and Thomas has shown an inability to stay on the field. For first round picks, not the production I'd hoped for. I won't say either one is 'done' because I surely don't know. But what they've displayed to date isn't overwhelming.

The silly trades (next year's #1 for this year's #2) and the picks of Smith and Smith speak for themselves. The McDaniels draft history will be judged, in the end, on Tebow. Trading 3 picks for Tebow was an immense gamble. If he becomes a star, it will look like a ballsy pick. If he fails, you are potentially looking at Cutler, Marshall, and the 'standard' allotment of picks being turned into very very little.

To be entirely fair, I guess McDaniels did 'earn' the #2 pick overall for 2011, maybe if Fox/Elway find a keeper there, we can give McD partial credit for that one. ROFL!

moreno is a bust because hes already 50% of the way to an average RB career? thats seriously the ****tiest logic anyone can come up with. you are making the assumption that EVERY RB in the NFL is only allowed to play for 4 years, and no RBs play past that. thats stupid, some like deangelo williams get better as they got older, others like michael turner showed up later in their career due to reduced workload early on. ayers and DT have showed flashes, this is indisputable, so in their 3rd and 2nd years after showing potential early on, they are busts to?

just stupid.

jhns
03-28-2011, 07:21 AM
I sure hope Elway doesn't agree. It would be nice to get good again. Trading future firsts is a joke. Having tons of top picks and not addressing most needs is not a good draft strategy... This is a strategy that turns you into the second worst team in the league.

DrFate
03-28-2011, 07:32 AM
moreno is a bust because hes already 50% of the way to an average RB career? thats seriously the ****tiest logic anyone can come up with. you are making the assumption that EVERY RB in the NFL is only allowed to play for 4 years, and no RBs play past that. thats stupid, some like deangelo williams get better as they got older, others like michael turner showed up later in their career due to reduced workload early on. ayers and DT have showed flashes, this is indisputable, so in their 3rd and 2nd years after showing potential early on, they are busts to?

just stupid.

The difference between you and I, tsiguy (other than about 80 IQ points) is that I'm basing my opinion on facts.

fact - Moreno was #12 overall
fact - NFL RBs average career is a little under 4 years
fact - Moreno has been, at best, a rotation-type player

You base your opinion on, well, something else. I can't say Moreno is going into year 3 of a 4 year career - because I don't know. Based on the FACTS at hand, I'm quite comfortable with my existing analysis. The facts project him as a bust.

And I agree that Thomas and Ayers have shown some flashes. Just not enough real production for round 1 picks. Thomas had what, one solid game in his career? And now a torn achilles? How many top flight WRs came back from a torn achilles?

Ayers has 1.5 sacks in his career. (again, a fact) Compare that 'production' to somebody like Orakpo, who came in and started making plays - and you'll see how easy it is to grade McDaniel's drafts as an F.

I'm not sure it's even a high F.

Beantown Bronco
03-28-2011, 07:40 AM
You base your opinion on, well, something else. I can't say Moreno is going into year 3 of a 4 year career - because I don't know. Based on the FACTS at hand, I'm quite comfortable with my existing analysis. The facts project him as a bust.

Please. You can say that he's not producing as much as you and some others want....but by no definition is he a bust at this point.

The facts? The facts actually show that he was the league's leading rookie rusher in 2009. By definition, that fact shows that he couldn't have been further from a bust.

tsiguy96
03-28-2011, 07:43 AM
The difference between you and I, tsiguy (other than about 80 IQ points) is that I'm basing my opinion on facts.

fact - Moreno was #12 overall
fact - NFL RBs average career is a little under 4 years
fact - Moreno has been, at best, a rotation-type player

You base your opinion on, well, something else. I can't say Moreno is going into year 3 of a 4 year career - because I don't know. Based on the FACTS at hand, I'm quite comfortable with my existing analysis. The facts project him as a bust.

And I agree that Thomas and Ayers have shown some flashes. Just not enough real production for round 1 picks. Thomas had what, one solid game in his career? And now a torn achilles? How many top flight WRs came back from a torn achilles?

Ayers has 1.5 sacks in his career. (again, a fact) Compare that 'production' to somebody like Orakpo, who came in and started making plays - and you'll see how easy it is to grade McDaniel's drafts as an F.

I'm not sure it's even a high F.

the fact that you take a league average and apply it to a guy whos still playing is crazy. just because league average dictates RBs dont play for more then 2 seasons doesnt mean moreno is ONLY going to play for 2 more seasons, then hes done. thats simply just stupid.

and yes, they have shown flashes, thomas was a ROOKIE, and ayers is moving to a new position to see if he can do better there. quit being so ****ing spiteful.

DrFate
03-28-2011, 07:52 AM
the fact that you take a league average and apply it to a guy whos still playing is crazy. just because league average dictates RBs dont play for more then 2 seasons doesnt mean moreno is ONLY going to play for 2 more seasons, then hes done. thats simply just stupid.

and yes, they have shown flashes, thomas was a ROOKIE, and ayers is moving to a new position to see if he can do better there. quit being so ****ing spiteful.

I realize your mancrush on the former Broncos head coach is never ending, but be reasonable. Put those players/results on a Cowboys board or a Vikings board or a 49ers board (somewhere where the opinion isn't utterly swayed by orange/blue tinted glasses) and what do you think you'll get as an opinion on the McD draft history?

tsiguy96
03-28-2011, 08:00 AM
I realize your mancrush on the former Broncos head coach is never ending, but be reasonable. Put those players/results on a Cowboys board or a Vikings board or a 49ers board (somewhere where the opinion isn't utterly swayed by orange/blue tinted glasses) and what do you think you'll get as an opinion on the McD draft history?

i am being reasonable, and destroying your argument that you can apply league average for a RB to any specific player whos currently playing. if you were a houston fan, i bet you would have HATED mario williams because he wasnt a stud from day one. amazing how some fans wont give players any time to develop, need instant gratification or they are a ****head bust that needs to be cut.

DrFate
03-28-2011, 08:12 AM
i am being reasonable, and destroying your argument that you can apply league average for a RB to any specific player whos currently playing. if you were a houston fan, i bet you would have HATED mario williams because he wasnt a stud from day one. amazing how some fans wont give players any time to develop, need instant gratification or they are a ****head bust that needs to be cut.

I expect round 1 picks to be productive after 2 years in the league. You let your homerism color your judgement.

gyldenlove
03-28-2011, 08:17 AM
Just for the sake of conversation, where did they get slower? I know we went bigger on Defense to accommodate a 3-4, but off the top of my head I can't think of where the team got slower.

Off the top of my head I would say LB, TE and QB.

Haggan and Davis are not exactly known for their blazing speed. Graham, Quinn and Gronkowski I believe is the slowest TE trio in the league, there is no doubting that Scheffler is certainly quite a bit faster than all of them. Cutler was no Chris Johnson, but then again Orton may not even be Brett Favre when it comes to speed.

Safety is difficult to judge because it was such a hideously bad position before picking up Dawkins, so while they may be slower now at least they tend to be in better position.

Missouribronc
03-28-2011, 09:06 AM
I expect round 1 picks to be productive after 2 years in the league. You let your homerism color your judgement.

Define "productive."

Mogulseeker
03-28-2011, 09:51 AM
Just for the sake of conversation, where did they get slower? I know we went bigger on Defense to accommodate a 3-4, but off the top of my head I can't think of where the team got slower.

This:

Leave Orton and Moreno alone!

Watching Dawkins plod several steps behind Patrick Crayton for 25 yards in the first SD game was pretty damn sad.

Offense

Oline: Ben Hamilton and Casey Weigman were great ZBS linemen with a lot of speed who left the PBS that McD ran.

TEs: Scheffler was our speed guy at TE... gone.

RBs: Hillis was a FB with 4.5 speed... gone. Moreno is slower than Hillis.

QBs: Cutler v Orton. No Contest.

WRs: I'll give you that DT is faster than Marshall, and I'm anxious to see what DT is made of. We might be a little faster at WR because of that Perkins system that McD runs compared to the WCO of Shanahan.

Defense

LBs: DJ and Hagan were retained from the Shanahan years. DJ is quick, but Hagan is slow. Woodyard is fast but had less of a role. Ayers and Doom are DEs moved to LB that aren't particularly fast... they're probably better than Webster and Boss Bailey, but they're much slower.

DL: We moved our DTs to DE, and brought in guys like Williams and Fields to eat up blocks. Our average 40 times for DL probably went from like 4.85 to 5.1.

Secondary: Bailey is still pretty quick but he's lost and edge. We brought in Goodman, Dawkins and Hill as the other starters - all over 30 and past their prime. Dawkins isn't the player he was. Goodman is actually decent, but doesn't have elite speed (we got rid of Dre Bly - also terrible, but damn fast). Hill has decent speed for a SS, but he seemed lost a lot and couldn't tackle. Guys like Cox and Vaugn are fast and look promising.

Overall, we're a lot slower. Look at the Raiders game we got humiliated in - they could have been little kids out there and they still would have crushed us with their speed. Watch the game, the Raiders speed killed us.

Cito Pelon
03-28-2011, 09:53 AM
I don't. I have never seen anything (speed, power,hands, feet in hole) that make him special. He is an so-so NFL back that remind me of Derrick Loville, nice back up but nothing special.

Moreno reminds you of Loville? Please. C'mon, dude, stop yanking my chain.

Bobby Turner wanted Moreno and got him, said "He's the kind of back I look for."

TDmvp, the reason Moreno hasn't had stamina is because he's been injured. It's hard to have stamina if you can't do wind sprints because you're injured.

We'll see how he pans out. I like the guy, I think he's a good solid tailback.

TheReverend
03-28-2011, 09:54 AM
I can't tell if the original post is genuine or parody/trolling.

TheReverend
03-28-2011, 09:56 AM
i am being reasonable, and destroying your argument that you can apply league average for a RB to any specific player whos currently playing. if you were a houston fan, i bet you would have HATED mario williams because he wasnt a stud from day one. amazing how some fans wont give players any time to develop, need instant gratification or they are a ****head bust that needs to be cut.

Holy **** are you serious?!

Mario Williams set the franchise sack record, was voted first team all pro and went to the pro bowl his second year... Moreno... not so much.

Terrible example.

Cito Pelon
03-28-2011, 09:59 AM
You're right of course, but in this instance by balls I meant solid scouting and talent evaluation.

And definitely yes on the delegation issue. You want a bit of Napoleon in your head coach, but the situation when Josh was hired cried out that delegation be thrust upon him. Downside: Just a kid, first time head coach. Upside: Offensive boy-genius. What he did with Cassell that year was amazing.

I'm a broken record, but maybe concentrate on just the offense until you're grounded, comfortable. That was the right plan. Cutting him loose from Day 1, that was Bowlen and Ellis' mistake, and it was big one.


Don't push me here, or I'll be forced to raise the Jim Goodman issue.

Eh, I still think McD actually did delegate to his assistant coaches for the 2009 draft picks.

Ayers, Smith and McBath were Nolan's choices, McXanders went out and got them. Moreno was Bobby Turner's choice, McXanders got him.

Taco John
03-28-2011, 10:02 AM
moreno is a bust because hes already 50% of the way to an average RB career?


No Moreno is a bust because he's got only two 100+ yard rushing games in his two year career, and can't stay healthy enough to break the 1000 yard mark on the season. As a #12 pick overall, he's a bust. If we'd have picked him in the 3rd or 4th round, his production would be living up to his draft position.

And for the record, I'm not criticizing McDaniels for picking Moreno. I would have picked Moreno at #12 too. I, of course, would have been a lot smarter than McDaniels and use Moreno in a one-two punch with Hillis. But me being smarter than the biggest loser in Broncos history is not the point. The point is, Moreno isn't living up to anyone's expectations - not even the people defending him.

Cito Pelon
03-28-2011, 10:02 AM
But Mrs. Lincoln, OTHER than that, how was the play?

Bloody awful. In fact, one can say it was a major headache.

tsiguy96
03-28-2011, 10:11 AM
No Moreno is a bust because he's got only two 100+ yard rushing games in his two year career, and can't stay healthy enough to break the 1000 yard mark on the season. As a #12 pick overall, he's a bust. If we'd have picked him in the 3rd or 4th round, his production would be living up to his draft position.

And for the record, I'm not criticizing McDaniels for picking Moreno. I would have picked Moreno at #12 too. I, of course, would have been a lot smarter than McDaniels and use Moreno in a one-two punch with Hillis. But me being smarter than the biggest loser in Broncos history is not the point. The point is, Moreno isn't living up to anyone's expectations - not even the people defending him.

im not defending what hes done, he like all of mcds picks for whatever reason have shown flashes of greatness, then periods of nothing. just saying, moreno has been a moderately decent RB and no reason to call him a total loser yet especially with a new running based coach coming in.

2KBack
03-28-2011, 10:26 AM
Oline: Ben Hamilton and Casey Weigman were great ZBS linemen with a lot of speed who left the PBS that McD ran.

TEs: Scheffler was our speed guy at TE... gone.

RBs: Hillis was a FB with 4.5 speed... gone. Moreno is slower than Hillis.

QBs: Cutler v Orton. No Contest.

WRs: I'll give you that DT is faster than Marshall, and I'm anxious to see what DT is made of. We might be a little faster at WR because of that Perkins system that McD runs compared to the WCO of Shanahan.

Defense

LBs: DJ and Hagan were retained from the Shanahan years. DJ is quick, but Hagan is slow. Woodyard is fast but had less of a role. Ayers and Doom are DEs moved to LB that aren't particularly fast... they're probably better than Webster and Boss Bailey, but they're much slower.

DL: We moved our DTs to DE, and brought in guys like Williams and Fields to eat up blocks. Our average 40 times for DL probably went from like 4.85 to 5.1.

Secondary: Bailey is still pretty quick but he's lost and edge. We brought in Goodman, Dawkins and Hill as the other starters - all over 30 and past their prime. Dawkins isn't the player he was. Goodman is actually decent, but doesn't have elite speed (we got rid of Dre Bly - also terrible, but damn fast). Hill has decent speed for a SS, but he seemed lost a lot and couldn't tackle. Guys like Cox and Vaugn are fast and look promising.

Overall, we're a lot slower. Look at the Raiders game we got humiliated in - they could have been little kids out there and they still would have crushed us with their speed. Watch the game, the Raiders speed killed us.

I think I see where you are going with this, I don't agree with all the assessments though. I don't think the 40 times of JD Walton and the revolving door at LG mattered much. I don't for a minute think that Moreno and Buck are slower than Hillis and Pittman Not only is Thomas faster than Marshall, but so is Loyd.

Cutler is Faster than Orton, but who cares, he is faster than most QB's Speed at the QB position means little to nothing.

Our TE's suck, I didn't like Scheffler, but he was at least fast....even if that's all he was. Come to think of it, that is really the difference in most of the players you listed. They may have been fast, but that was it. Switching to the big 3-4 you are gonna lose some speed in the front 7, that's to be expected. Any speed lost was replaced by knowing how to play.

I suppose bottom line we were technically slower on defense, but I'd say at least even on offense.

rugbythug
03-28-2011, 10:41 AM
I can't tell if the original post is genuine or parody/trolling.

Genuine but I did want to speak on drafting concepts and not the picks taken. Arguing picks is stupid and pointless their is no baseline for winning everyone one wants every pick to be an all pro hall of fame guy to be cosidered a good pick. Doesn't work that way. If moreno starts 6 years he will have been a good player.

Missouribronc
03-28-2011, 10:54 AM
First round running backs, in their first two years:
Chris Johnson, 3,997 Yards from scrimmage, 26 TDs
Adrian Peterson, 3,494, 23
Joseph Addai, 2,842, 23
Marshawn Lynch, 2,635, 16
Ronnie Brown, 2,423, 10
Knowshon Moreno, 2,311, 17
Reggie Bush, 2,305, 14
Cadillac Williams, 2,253, 7
Steven Jackson, 2,228, 14
Jonathan Stewart, 2,155, 21
Kevin Jones, 2,086, 11
Laurence Maroney, 1,890, 13
DeAngelo Williams, 1,706, 7
Rashard Mendenhall, 1,444, 8
Beanie Wells, 1,407, 9
Darren McFadden, 1,386, 5
Donald Brown, 1,152, 5
Felix Jones, 1,080, 6
Cedric Benson, 976, 6
Chris Perry, 641, 2

DrFate
03-28-2011, 11:40 AM
Define "productive."

Taco beat me to it, and his response is pretty solid.

Cito Pelon
03-28-2011, 11:41 AM
First round running backs, in their first two years:
Chris Johnson, 3,997 Yards from scrimmage, 26 TDs
Adrian Peterson, 3,494, 23
Joseph Addai, 2,842, 23
Marshawn Lynch, 2,635, 16
Ronnie Brown, 2,423, 10
Knowshon Moreno, 2,311, 17
Reggie Bush, 2,305, 14
Cadillac Williams, 2,253, 7
Steven Jackson, 2,228, 14
Jonathan Stewart, 2,155, 21
Kevin Jones, 2,086, 11
Laurence Maroney, 1,890, 13
DeAngelo Williams, 1,706, 7
Rashard Mendenhall, 1,444, 8
Beanie Wells, 1,407, 9
Darren McFadden, 1,386, 5
Donald Brown, 1,152, 5
Felix Jones, 1,080, 6
Cedric Benson, 976, 6
Chris Perry, 641, 2

That's the thing about Moreno, he's been a good TD scoring back, a good yards from scrimmage back, despite the injuries.

Moreno is a pretty good back, I like his work in the redzone, he has the knack to find the seam and score. Bobby Turner was smart to draft him.

DrFate
03-28-2011, 11:41 AM
First round running backs, in their first two years:
Chris Johnson, 3,997 Yards from scrimmage, 26 TDs
...
Chris Perry, 641, 2

What exactly is this list?

Missouribronc
03-28-2011, 12:04 PM
What exactly is this list?

Exactly what it says. Running backs drafted in the first round and their yards from scrimmage in their first two years as pro.

DrFate
03-28-2011, 12:10 PM
Exactly what it says. Running backs drafted in the first round and their yards from scrimmage in their first two years as pro.

So this is every RB ever drafted in the first round?

Missouribronc
03-28-2011, 12:31 PM
So this is every RB ever drafted in the first round?

Does it look like it?

Cito Pelon
03-28-2011, 12:32 PM
What exactly is this list?

Looks to me like a list of the first-round RB's for the past 8 years or so.

bendog
03-28-2011, 12:33 PM
his drafts were so awesome that we now have the two pick. this is a real men of genius thread.

broncosteven
03-28-2011, 12:37 PM
First round running backs, in their first two years:
Chris Johnson, 3,997 Yards from scrimmage, 26 TDs
Adrian Peterson, 3,494, 23
Joseph Addai, 2,842, 23
Marshawn Lynch, 2,635, 16
Ronnie Brown, 2,423, 10
Knowshon Moreno, 2,311, 17
Reggie Bush, 2,305, 14
Cadillac Williams, 2,253, 7
Steven Jackson, 2,228, 14
Jonathan Stewart, 2,155, 21
Kevin Jones, 2,086, 11
Laurence Maroney, 1,890, 13
DeAngelo Williams, 1,706, 7
Rashard Mendenhall, 1,444, 8
Beanie Wells, 1,407, 9
Darren McFadden, 1,386, 5
Donald Brown, 1,152, 5
Felix Jones, 1,080, 6
Cedric Benson, 976, 6
Chris Perry, 641, 2

What does it look like if you take away the passing yards?

KM is much better as a receiving back where he is isolated on one or 2 smaller guys with a blocker or 2 in front. When running from the power scheme mCd insisted on using where everyone knew they were running the ball he was not as good.

I hope he gets healthy and we find an RB later in the draft that he can split time with and they use him on screens or in the flat.

Missouribronc
03-28-2011, 12:39 PM
What does it look like if you take away the passing yards?

KM is much better as a receiving back where he is isolated on one or 2 smaller guys with a blocker or 2 in front. When running from the power scheme mCd insisted on using where everyone knew they were running the ball he was not as good.

I hope he gets healthy and we find an RB later in the draft that he can split time with and they use him on screens or in the flat.

Considering that all McDaniels wanted to do was pass, I think we should reserve judgment on Moreno in the running game. If he sucks after working in a Fox system, then yes, it's time to start calling it a bad pick.

He's been productive in the scheme he was in, but because he didn't get to 1,000 yards rushing people are calling him a bust, when he's clearly not even close to a bust.

Cito Pelon
03-28-2011, 12:51 PM
What does it look like if you take away the passing yards?

KM is much better as a receiving back where he is isolated on one or 2 smaller guys with a blocker or 2 in front. When running from the power scheme mCd insisted on using where everyone knew they were running the ball he was not as good.
I hope he gets healthy and we find an RB later in the draft that he can split time with and they use him on screens or in the flat.

12 TD's rushing in that power scheme. Moreno was the back they used around the goal line with that power scheme. Moreno is actually pretty good, Bobby Turner picked a good back.

5 TD's passing from Moreno, maybe 4 of those from goal line sets. Moreno seems like he has a nose for the end zone, which I like.

broncosteven
03-28-2011, 12:55 PM
12 TD's rushing in that power scheme. Moreno was the back they used around the goal line with that power scheme. Moreno is actually pretty good, Bobby Turner picked a good back.

5 TD's passing from Moreno, maybe 4 of those from goal line sets. Moreno seems like he has a nose for the end zone, which I like.

How many Td's from 30 or more out?

He is a solid back and would make a nice CBuck type option or goalline dude but he is not going to be home run threat unless we are playing KFC and they are determined to stop the CIDTL passing game.

broncosteven
03-28-2011, 12:57 PM
Considering that all McDaniels wanted to do was pass, I think we should reserve judgment on Moreno in the running game. If he sucks after working in a Fox system, then yes, it's time to start calling it a bad pick.

He's been productive in the scheme he was in, but because he didn't get to 1,000 yards rushing people are calling him a bust, when he's clearly not even close to a bust.

Last year he was injured more than a bust but your right he is going to have to show a lot more under Fox. I haven't heard what type of run game Fox is planning on running but I think KM would be better in a zone scheme where the backside of the D is on the ground, maybe then he won't get chased down by the DL 15 yards down field.

DrFate
03-28-2011, 12:58 PM
Does it look like it?

It looks to me that you selected a small subset of players to try to skew an agrument, but was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Cito Pelon
03-28-2011, 01:01 PM
Jeez, 17 TD's in two years is solid production, hard to argue about. And Moreno has been hampered by injuries the first two years of his career. Moreno is a solid tailback.

DrFate
03-28-2011, 01:02 PM
Looks to me like a list of the first-round RB's for the past 8 years or so.

That's why I asked. Without some context, it's just a list of guys.

I'm guessing it's 2004-date, as it doesn't seem to include McGahee from the 2003 draft, who (after sitting out a year) had back-to-back 1100 yard seasons Buffalo

Or Larry Johnson (also from 2003)

broncosteven
03-28-2011, 01:04 PM
Jeez, 17 TD's in two years is solid production, hard to argue about. And Moreno has been hampered by injuries the first two years of his career. Moreno is a solid tailback.

A solid RB yes, worth #15 overall?

DrFate
03-28-2011, 01:04 PM
A solid RB yes, worth #15 overall?

#12 overall

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowshon_Moreno

Cito Pelon
03-28-2011, 01:06 PM
How many Td's from 30 or more out?

He is a solid back and would make a nice CBuck type option or goalline dude but he is not going to be home run threat unless we are playing KFC and they are determined to stop the CIDTL passing game.

Not a big deal. As long as Moreno can score in the redzone, that's the big deal, and Moreno can score in the redzone.

Beantown Bronco
03-28-2011, 01:11 PM
A solid RB yes, worth #15 overall?

I also believe that at least a small part of the reason they took him was to keep him away from SD. That alone is worth at least a bit of a bump in value IMO. In their scheme, with Rivers, holy crap. He really seems tailor made to flourish there and I wouldn't have wanted to face that. They can have Ryan Mathews.

bendog
03-28-2011, 01:18 PM
First round running backs, in their first two years:
Chris Johnson, 3,997 Yards from scrimmage, 26 TDs
Adrian Peterson, 3,494, 23
Joseph Addai, 2,842, 23
Marshawn Lynch, 2,635, 16
Ronnie Brown, 2,423, 10
Knowshon Moreno, 2,311, 17
Reggie Bush, 2,305, 14
Cadillac Williams, 2,253, 7
Steven Jackson, 2,228, 14
Jonathan Stewart, 2,155, 21
Kevin Jones, 2,086, 11
Laurence Maroney, 1,890, 13
DeAngelo Williams, 1,706, 7
Rashard Mendenhall, 1,444, 8
Beanie Wells, 1,407, 9
Darren McFadden, 1,386, 5
Donald Brown, 1,152, 5
Felix Jones, 1,080, 6
Cedric Benson, 976, 6
Chris Perry, 641, 2

I'd toss out Addai because of the system he's in. But that aside, that list shows why teams shouldn't draft rbs in the first .... unless they're AP. Chris Johnson is just inexplicable. He's not on a TD level of a draft find, but there's no way anyone could predict his career.

LonghornBronco
03-28-2011, 01:29 PM
McD's biggest fault IMO is that he could not or would not adjust to the current teams strengths. He basically fixed what was not broken and didn't have enough resources to address the true weaknesses. He does have talent and smarts and will probably learn from his mistakes, unfortunately they come at the expense of our beloved Broncos. Sometimes I think this was an evil plot by belicheck to destroy a team that consistantly gave him problems. I believe he is 3-6 against us

bronco militia
03-28-2011, 01:35 PM
Sometimes I think this was an evil plot by belicheck to destroy a team that consistantly gave him problems. I believe he is 3-6 against us

3-6 vs shanahan.....


to add, John Elway was 12-0 (1-0 playoffs) vs the pats in his career.

Ha!

Cito Pelon
03-28-2011, 01:38 PM
I also believe that at least a small part of the reason they took him was to keep him away from SD. That alone is worth at least a bit of a bump in value IMO. In their scheme, with Rivers, holy crap. He really seems tailor made to flourish there and I wouldn't have wanted to face that. They can have Ryan Mathews.

Yeah, I agree with that, I think that was a part of the draft philosophy.

Why not grab a good back, and keep him off the AFC West rival at the same time. I really believe Moreno was SD's draft target in round one, hoping he would fall. So much for waiting for your guy to fall vs. going and get him RE: rugbythug's thread.

SD didn't f around to grab Ryan matthews the next draft, they traded up.

bendog
03-28-2011, 02:12 PM
This would have some logic to it had not McD TRADED for **** a back who had more yards that the back he wasted a 14 on while passing on orakapo

Missouribronc
03-28-2011, 02:16 PM
That's why I asked. Without some context, it's just a list of guys.

I'm guessing it's 2004-date, as it doesn't seem to include McGahee from the 2003 draft, who (after sitting out a year) had back-to-back 1100 yard seasons Buffalo

Or Larry Johnson (also from 2003)

You might want to take a look at what those two running backs did in their first two years in the league, before using them as an example for your argument. McGahee had 1,297 yards, 13 TDs and Johnson had 946 yards and 12 touchdowns (Yards from scrimmage).

We can also take it back to 2002, when we get to add the ever-productive William Green and T.J. Duckett.

I keep reading, "he wasn't worth the No. 12 pick" and I keep asking "what is the No. 12 pick worth" and the answer is usually immediate All-Pro. But reality is clearly different than that. People put too much value on No. 1 picks.

As far as it being a small subset...its 20 running backs from the last six seasons. I don't think that's a small subset considering the average career of a running back is four seasons. But, add on the other four running backs from 2003 and 2002 and Moreno is still in the same position he is in on that list. So now we're up to seven years of drafts and 24 running backs.

Mogulseeker
03-28-2011, 04:12 PM
Jeez, 17 TD's in two years is solid production, hard to argue about. And Moreno has been hampered by injuries the first two years of his career. Moreno is a solid tailback.

In terms of sheer talent, Moreno is an outstanding tailback. Again, I don't think he's durable enough to be a feature back, but if we're talking about shared carries, he could become the best 1a back in the league. I really think if we get one of those 5'7" 170lb scat-backs with a ton of speed to balance out Moreno, we could have a quite effective rushing attack.

We took him at 12 and he might not have been worth that, but there was a reason a lot of people had this guy going top-five.

yerner
03-28-2011, 04:17 PM
I think Moreno gets a bad rap. He was clearly playing behind a crappy run blocking line. Look what happened when Maroney tried to run it. It was beyond awful. Moreno just needs better blocking.

Missouribronc
03-28-2011, 04:20 PM
I think Moreno gets a bad rap. He was clearly playing behind a crappy run blocking line. Look what happened when Maroney tried to run it. It was beyond awful. Moreno just needs better blocking.

The run scheme flat sucked. Ultimately, that's McDaniels fault and he got fired, but somebody, somewhere - whether it was McDaniels calling the shots on the run game or not - did not do their job coaching last year.

Fox ought to be able to turn that around. For all of his teams' faults in the passing game and at quarterback they could run the ball. And Denver fans will like that.

Mogulseeker
03-28-2011, 04:23 PM
I think Moreno gets a bad rap. He was clearly playing behind a crappy run blocking line. Look what happened when Maroney tried to run it. It was beyond awful. Moreno just needs better blocking.

We might need a new center, but I like the potential of the line we have. I think a lot of guys were playing out of system last year. (That would be a knock on McD.)