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bronclvr
03-11-2011, 12:20 PM
Although it appears I will get my wish of taking a spring and summer off from covering NFL minicamps and OTAs, let’s file studying up on such terms as “decertification” and “antitrust suits” and under “careful what you wish for.”

I just talked to Gary Roberts, a leading labor expert and dean of Indiana University School of Law-Indianapolis. From all he’s read and heard about the NFL labor dispute — and it is now more accurate to characterize these talks as a dispute, not a negotiation — it appears the players union will formally announce it is decertifying today.

For us sports nerds who know nothing about nothing outside of the field of play, decertifying means a union is no longer a union. And because its no longer a union it no longer can participate in collective bargaining. The players association will then name nine players as plaintiffs — Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and Drew Brees among them — and file an antitrust suit in a Minneapolis courtroom where the union-favorable Judge Doty awaits.

Roberts questions this tactic because owners are not liable for antitrust damages for anything they did prior to union decertifying.

The NFL will counter by shutting down business because this is the only way it can prove its not conspiring against the union is to do nothing, according to Roberts.

more here:

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2011/03/11/labor-college-decertification-101-and-nfl-shutdown/7054/

bendog
03-11-2011, 12:26 PM
It does set the stage for another USFL, since few of the stadiums are actually owned by the owners who got taxpayers to foot most of the bill. If the players can get teams going in eight cities, it might be another AFL/NFL thing.

gyldenlove
03-11-2011, 12:51 PM
I don't see how the league can shut down business in the face of decertifying, they would be on the hook for all salary and bonuses under all signed contracts, that is a LOT of money if no football is being played.

The league can't even say no free agency because that would constitute collusion.

bronco militia
03-11-2011, 12:55 PM
and the league will have to pay back the networks for any lost revenue.....

right now I forsee a shortened 2011 season.

bendog
03-11-2011, 01:06 PM
I'd think the owners would attempt to say that since the contracts were actually prepared to suit NFLPA guidelines under the cba, the contracts are entirely void. I'm not sure it'd fly.

But I agree with milita, I think there will be a settlement in August sometime.

NFLBRONCO
03-11-2011, 01:07 PM
This hurts Denver new system no OTA's project qb. At least having another high pick to bolster team more is good.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2011, 01:09 PM
Its ****ing unreal that they cant come to an agreement. They have lost all sight of reality.

oubronco
03-11-2011, 01:12 PM
This hurts Denver new system no OTA's project qb. At least having another high pick to bolster team more is good.

Which would be fuggin awesome especially if there is a rookie scale

bendog
03-11-2011, 01:14 PM
We are talking of a group of owners where there is either inherited wealth or Jerry Jones and Dan Snyder and models and the players have been pampered jocks from high school to today, getting preferential treatment in class and skirting moral/ethical/legal norms along the way.

gyldenlove
03-11-2011, 01:34 PM
This hurts Denver new system no OTA's project qb. At least having another high pick to bolster team more is good.

I believe a decertification would allow players under contract to work with the team again given that there will be no rules for OTAs.

Gort
03-11-2011, 01:43 PM
i know i'm going to take some flak for this, but...

i wouldn't mind the whole 2011 season being locked out.

the Broncos are going to suck anyway, and that's 1 year closer to retirement for Peyton and Brady.

i could go a year without football. there's still the college game.

and it'd be nice to knock the players union down a peg or two, although i suspect if 2011 were cancelled, there'd be alot more bad rap/hip hop music released by NFL players who fancy themselves as rap stars. but on the bright side, they'd probably also single handedly keep the Las Vegas casino and stripper industries solvent for another year.

bendog
03-11-2011, 01:47 PM
I believe a decertification would allow players under contract to work with the team again given that there will be no rules for OTAs.

If I'm a player, I'm not working out for an organization that won't pay me if I'm hurt. And, the only way the NFL has anti-trust protection is because the players agree to collectively bargain a labor agreement. If they sign anyone to an individual contract, then not only is there no anti-trust protection but the players have unlimited free agency.

Beantown Bronco
03-11-2011, 02:08 PM
IT'S OFFICIAL: NFLPA filed for decertification.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2011, 02:21 PM
i know i'm going to take some flak for this, but...

i wouldn't mind the whole 2011 season being locked out.

the Broncos are going to suck anyway, and that's 1 year closer to retirement for Peyton and Brady.

i could go a year without football. there's still the college game.

and it'd be nice to knock the players union down a peg or two, although i suspect if 2011 were cancelled, there'd be alot more bad rap/hip hop music released by NFL players who fancy themselves as rap stars. but on the bright side, they'd probably also single handedly keep the Las Vegas casino and stripper industries solvent for another year.

Yeah, cause this is ALL the unions fault. Please. I have no doubt they are equal in their assholeness right now.

long beach bronco
03-11-2011, 02:22 PM
What a bunch of greedy people, both sides. The fans are the losers here. The fans need to strike back because this is just not right. The players and the owners really need to feel the pain from us. :(

lostknight
03-11-2011, 02:26 PM
This became inevitable once Doty issued his ruling. The NFLPA is convinced that the court will give them by fiat what they could not get by negotating. Everything I've heard is that the NFL offered to meet them half way, and the NFLPA decided to _up_ their demands for disclosure to include information from the previous league years as well.

For all of their bitching and moaning about a lockout, is anyone really surprised that the NFLPA forced the issue and is causing a lockout? (The NFL can't do anything else, because anything they might do is illegal since they no longer have anti-trust exemption).

Chris
03-11-2011, 02:37 PM
This hurts Denver new system no OTA's project qb. At least having another high pick to bolster team more is good.

Why would we get another high pick if they settle in August? Or are you saying we'll miss the full season? Presumably if a partial season goes ahead the draft order will still be determined by those results.

Gort
03-11-2011, 02:39 PM
Yeah, cause this is ALL the unions fault. Please/

no, but it's MY OPINION that the NFLPA has been selfish in their dealings with the NFL alumni organizations looking for health benefits for ex-NFL players who are facing severe physical ailments later in life, as well as during the last collective bargaining session/agreement in 2006. the owners are the employers. the players are the employees. why are the employees getting 60% of the revenues? the owners are the ones who actually have money on the line (at risk). whatever gains they've made on the values of their franchises since they purchased them are paper gains until they sell. just because the the Panthers are worth $1B on paper, doesn't mean that Jerry Richardson magically has an extra $5M or $10M every year to cover the organizational overhead or the interest payments he has to make on the money he borrowed to buy the team. i think that's the main problem. the current deal isn't fair to both sides. Upshaw took advantage of a commissioner who was leaving and who didn't want to tarnish his legacy with a work stoppage.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2011, 02:44 PM
no, but it's MY OPINION that the NFLPA has been selfish in their dealings with the NFL alumni organizations looking for health benefits for ex-NFL players who are facing severe physical ailments later in life, as well as during the last collective bargaining session/agreement in 2006. the owners are the employers. the players are the employees. why are the employees getting 60% of the revenues? the owners are the ones who actually have money on the line (at risk). whatever gains they've made on the values of their franchises since they purchased them are paper gains until they sell. just because the the Panthers are worth $1B on paper, doesn't mean that Jerry Richardson magically has an extra $5M or $10M every year to cover the organizational overhead or the interest payments he has to make on the money he borrowed to buy the team. i think that's the main problem. the current deal isn't fair to both sides. Upshaw took advantage of a commissioner who was leaving and who didn't want to tarnish his legacy with a work stoppage.

While I see your point, professional sports are strange microeconomies that cannot be compared to a normal business selling an inanimate product. In this case, the players ARE the product. The fans arent coming to see the nice stadium, they are coming to watch the players play football. Without players, there is zero product.

Plus, no NFL franchise is losing money here. So lets not pretend that they are. None are even admitting to that.

bombay
03-11-2011, 02:46 PM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...bor-situation/ (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/12/ten-things-to-know-about-the-labor-situation/)

Uncharacteristically well done for this site. It's the best synopsis of the situation I've read yet, especially about decertification.

Gort
03-11-2011, 02:50 PM
While I see your point, professional sports are strange microeconomies that cannot be compared to a normal business selling an inanimate product. In this case, the players ARE the product. The fans arent coming to see the nice stadium, they are coming to watch the players play football. Without players, there is zero product.

Plus, no NFL franchise is losing money here. So lets not pretend that they are. None are even admitting to that.

i don't know about that. i think fans root for the team, not the players. players come and go. it's the team that draws them in. none of the players on the 1977 Broncos (my first year as a fan at age 10) have been on the field in years, but i'm still a Broncos fan. of course, it's a different owner too, so the argument applies both ways. i just don't think the NFLPA gives a rats ass about you or me or the owners or even the retired players who built the league. they care about their current members, everyone else be damned. that's why i want them brought down a couple of pegs. they were a very arrogant union under Upshaw.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ms-laborquestions090810

long beach bronco
03-11-2011, 02:59 PM
The football fan waits passionately for 16 games a year and maybe playoffs out of 52 weeks a year. That's all we get as fans, and that's being taken away from us by a bunch of greedy self centered bastards (both sides). I want to kick all of them in the groin right now I'm so mad.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2011, 03:05 PM
i don't know about that. i think fans root for the team, not the players. players come and go. it's the team that draws them in. none of the players on the 1977 Broncos (my first year as a fan at age 10) have been on the field in years, but i'm still a Broncos fan. of course, it's a different owner too, so the argument applies both ways. i just don't think the NFLPA gives a rats ass about you or me or the owners or even the retired players who built the league. they care about their current members, everyone else be damned. that's why i want them brought down a couple of pegs. they were a very arrogant union under Upshaw.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ms-laborquestions090810

Right, im not saying THESE players, im saying players in general. The game cant be played without players.

Gort
03-11-2011, 03:31 PM
Right, im not saying THESE players, im saying players in general. The game cant be played without players.

true, but it can be played without these prima donnas.

BTW, i think 95% of the players would be willing to work out a deal. i think it's the player reps and the NFLPA officials are the ones who are being the obstacles. if the owners were to cut everyone and then go out and sign all those late round picks or UFAs from the past few years who couldn't quite catch on with an NFL team, as well as the best from the CFL and any other leagues out there, and started playing games in 2011... after a couple of weeks, there would be a huge amount of pressure from the 95% of NFL players on their reps and NFLPA officials (now former?) to stop playing chicken with the owners and get something worked out.

right now, the NFL owners have every chance to win this war by playing the PR game. the NFLPA is in a tough spot and are ripe to be depicted as the "bad guy" in this whole situation. i wonder if they are smart enough to do that though. i get the feeling that the owners are not unanimous and it just takes a couple with their own agendas speaking to the press and undermining the owners position to help the NFLPA avoid being painted as the bad guy.

the issues are a bit too deep and complicated for the typical fan to care about. they just want to know who to blame. i expect the PR battle to heat up considerably starting today.

baja
03-11-2011, 03:36 PM
Well see ya in the WPR forum.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2011, 03:37 PM
true, but it can be played without these prima donnas.

BTW, i think 95% of the players would be willing to work out a deal. i think it's the player reps and the NFLPA officials are the ones who are being the obstacles. if the owners were to cut everyone and then go out and sign all those late round picks or UFAs from the past few years who couldn't quite catch on with an NFL team, as well as the best from the CFL and any other leagues out there, and started playing games in 2011... after a couple of weeks, there would be a huge amount of pressure from the 95% of NFL players on their reps and NFLPA officials (now former?) to stop playing chicken with the owners and get something worked out.

right now, the NFL owners have every chance to win this war by playing the PR game. the NFLPA is in a tough spot and are ripe to be depicted as the "bad guy" in this whole situation. i wonder if they are smart enough to do that though. i get the feeling that the owners are not unanimous and it just takes a couple with their own agendas speaking to the press and undermining the owners position to help the NFLPA avoid being painted as the bad guy.

the issues are a bit too deep and complicated for the typical fan to care about. they just want to know who to blame. i expect the PR battle to heat up considerably starting today.

They are only the bad guy if the owners win the media war. Remember, the players aren't asking for more, they are asking for the status quo, more or less. Plus, as somoene mentioned in the other thread, the NFL is the only game in town for these players, so they should negotitate fairly. And trust me, no one wants to watch a bad product, so if they replaced the best with all these CFL and UDFAS you speak of, people will most definitely tune out. I have zero doubt about that.

Gort
03-11-2011, 03:39 PM
no one wants to watch a bad product

how many 2010 Broncos games did you watch? i watched them all (though i turned a couple off at halftime).

ROFL!

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2011, 04:36 PM
how many 2010 Broncos games did you watch? i watched them all (though i turned a couple off at halftime).

ROFL!

haha true. I actually tuned out of a couple myself. First time in my history as a broncos fan.

epicSocialism4tw
03-11-2011, 04:51 PM
I hope they arent naive enough to believe that this wont hurt the NFL. A year out of sight and out of mind wont shake the hard core fans, but it will shake many aspects of the league's modern success.

epicSocialism4tw
03-11-2011, 04:52 PM
how many 2010 Broncos games did you watch? i watched them all (though i turned a couple off at halftime).

ROFL!


After the first couple of weeks, the only decent games to watch were the last three. Ha!

Hamrob
03-11-2011, 05:49 PM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...bor-situation/ (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/12/ten-things-to-know-about-the-labor-situation/)

Uncharacteristically well done for this site. It's the best synopsis of the situation I've read yet, especially about decertification.This describes a lock out. That's not what happened. Instead, the Union Decertified.

We need to understand what the NFL's rights are when the Union decertifies.

What are Manning, Brady etc. suing the NFL for? What claims are they making?

Hamrob
03-11-2011, 05:54 PM
Here is the rundown on Decertification:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/11/making-sense-of-the-coming-litigation-storm/

Gort
03-11-2011, 06:00 PM
Here is the rundown on Decertification:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/11/making-sense-of-the-coming-litigation-storm/

i'mj not sure i buy into this. this is a "stunt". how can you let a "stunt" nullify one's anti-trust status? the union didn't cease to represent the players because of anything the employers or government... they did it themselves. how is it fair for 1 side to have such a power and not the other?

there was a time once when the law was about doing the right thing. now it's about clever lawyers manipulating the law to their own ends, even if everyone involved knows what they're doing to be wrong.

Hamrob
03-11-2011, 06:03 PM
Here's on the lawsuits:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/11/tom-brady-peyton-manning-drew-brees-seven-others-file-antitrust-suit/

Interesting that Von Miller is one of the players suing the NFL. He's not even in the NFL. Wow!

Hamrob
03-11-2011, 06:06 PM
PFT is all over this stuff. Looks like Free Agency could start tomorrow:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/11/source-free-agency-could-start-at-midnight/

doonwise
03-11-2011, 06:26 PM
I am mostly curious about where we'll draft in 2012. How awesome would it be to have another #2?

zdoor
03-11-2011, 07:37 PM
Reading the details on the NFL's last offer I am surprised they decertified. To my eye, it seems like they were getting close.

I'm not a D Smith fan. The guy stinks of Litigator...