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Requiem
03-06-2011, 08:50 PM
As the draft nears closer, we are all wondering what the Broncos intend to do. With the recent released of Bannan and Williams, one would be lead to believe that defensive line is the likely selection at #2, with Patrick Peterson likely being in the mix as well.

Apparently the Broncos (per a Fox quote) like around five to seven guys at that selection. We could only imagine who they could be. This indicates to me that if an offer is on the table, the Broncos might be interested in trading down. Why not? If they're that confident in grades on those players, they might try and get as many picks as possible.

No matter who they take, the one thing I've been considering is the value/player scenarios in the draft thereafter. Here is some discussion:

If you take Peterson, it is no guarantee any of the lineman you really like will be available at #36. I don't think there is going to be much slipping -- I think you are going to see the best ten DL in this class go within those picks. That almost necessitates having to trade up to ensure you get the guy you want. Maybe the Broncos aren't shy about doing this. It has to be something they would consider.

Who do you trade up for then if you take Peterson at #2? Defensive end? Defensive tackle? Do you even consider moving up at all and just wait till your selections?

Right now, I'm trying to come up a good list of five to seven prospects at each of our first four selections (#2, #36, #46. #67).

This would by my board for the Broncos at #2 or their first selection in a trade down:

Marcell Dareus, DL
Patrick Peterson, S
Cameron Jordan, DL
Nick Fairley, DT
J.J. Watt, DL
Da'Quan Bowers, DE
Von Miller, LB

Then what do you do after? Obviously, it depends on what you do at that first selection. In the second round you have plenty of options, I just wonder how many DL will be off the board by then.

Here are just some players I think that have a possibility of being there at our second round selections that would make sense for the team, (by position, no particular):

Martez Wilson, ILB
Mason Foster, LB

Jimmy Smith, CB (Depends on Cox and whether or not he goes to trial, that is decided tomorrow)
Ras-I Dowling, CB
Raheem Moore, S

Muhammad Wilkerson, DL
Christian Ballard, DL
Drake Nevis, LSU

Ben Ijlana, OT (If Harris isn't re-signed, OT would should be considered.)

Mikel Leshoure, RB (Pending CBA ambiguity, but still a need, but not above defense)

Lance Kendricks, TE (Considering Graham is gone, Rudolph might not be there.)

Those would probably be my top ten targets in that span. For those wondering on the DL, I'm guessing Phil Taylor is gone and I'm avoiding Marvin Austin because he didn't even play this year -- and I'm not going to gamble if I'm on the Broncos with their selections. I would expect Luiget to be off the board by then too, maybe not, and if he's available he'd be one of the top guys I'd take if DL wasn't our first pick.

In the third round I'd consider some of these prospects:

LB's like Greg Jones and Quan Sturdivant if that wasn't addressed in the first three selections.

If the defensive backfield is getting addressed: Apparently they interview Da'Norris Searcy as well. Robert Sands could be a guy in this area as well. Davon House at corner could be some value here because I bet after the top three corners there will be a run somewhere near the end of the second round.

DL? Brooks Reed, Bruce Miller, Sheard and Romeus out of Pittsburgh and Sam Acho, Texas. Focusing more on ends at this point as I bet DT will be addressed first.

Offensive players: D.J. Williams, TE and Luke Stocker, TE -- other OL and RB. And I'd even toss in WR, though we have options.

How do you guys feel? What would your board be like for the first 4 picks we have? As of right now I would guess that three of our first four selections will be used on shoring up talent for the defense. The other pick that goes offensively will probably be a OL, RB or TE. Hopefully Harris is re-signed and then it just comes down to getting a weapon at the aforementioned position. I like Shane Vereen as a darkhorse selection early for us to go with Moreno. Think he would do great for us.

footstepsfrom#27
03-07-2011, 12:30 AM
If we go with Peterson, waiting till #36 to draft a D-lineman isn't necessary. We still have two #2's and a disgruntled backup QB who might fetch a 2nd also. I'd like to see a trade up to get Paea or a guy like Taylor or one of the DE's that winds up sliding into the second half of round one. Take a flyer in the 3rd on Dontay Moch and his 4.44 forty and groom him to be our next weakside backer. We should come out of this draft with at least two D-linemen even if we don't use the #2 on one.

driver
03-07-2011, 01:10 AM
Really like your picks for the #2 spot especially Dareus. He is a heck of a player. But to get him we would have to use that pick #2.No trades possible if we want him. We really need some picks in the 3rd & 4 th rnd thats the reason I've been on the trade band wagon so hard. Never been a fan of Peterson at the 2nd overall no db is that good,except in hind sight of course, The question in my mind is Dareus so good we can't afford to pass on him. The only lb in this draft who is worth picking in the 1st or 2nd rnd is Miller, Wilson Jones and Sturdivant are all 3rd rnd picks imo. Your te's are all good I really like Stocker from Tenn. Rudolph is a possible all pro after a couple of seasons but his injury history scares me. Kendricks maybe? Rb's I like Murray in the 3rd rnd. Helu could be had in the 4th IF WE HAD 4th.Face it we have too many areas of need and not enough picks. I really want the first three picks to go to the D.

ZONA
03-07-2011, 01:32 AM
Never been a fan of Peterson at the 2nd overall no db is that good,except in hind sight of course.

15 years ago everybody would agree with you but the NFL is quickly becoming more of a spread out passing league and top rated CB values keep going up every year. A 'Revis' type of player certainly would be well worth the #2 pick. Is Peterson that guy, who knows. You have to take the chance. I still think we are going with DL right from the get go but if Elway and crew think Doom is 100%, that might allow them to pick up a few DL guys in 2nd round while Doom gives you the pass rush you need. You don't really want to be taking 3-4 DE's in the 1st round anyway and only a total stud NT would get selected in 1st round for a 3-4 also.

It's going to be fun to watch how this unfolds.

serious hops
03-07-2011, 02:40 AM
15 years ago everybody would agree with you but the NFL is quickly becoming more of a spread out passing league and top rated CB values keep going up every year. A 'Revis' type of player certainly would be well worth the #2 pick. Is Peterson that guy, who knows. You have to take the chance. I still think we are going with DL right from the get go but if Elway and crew think Doom is 100%, that might allow them to pick up a few DL guys in 2nd round while Doom gives you the pass rush you need. You don't really want to be taking 3-4 DE's in the 1st round anyway and only a total stud NT would get selected in 1st round for a 3-4 also.

It's going to be fun to watch how this unfolds.

Huh? You point to the league's changing valuation of the cornerback position, and then turn around and say you don't want to take 3-4 linemen in the first round? Look at all the first round 3-4 DLs that have been part of recent championship teams. Ryan Pickett, Casey Hampton, Ziggy Hood, BJ Raji, Richard Seymour, Vince Wilfork, Ty Warren. Not that we're going to be selecting personnel for the 34 anyway (although the versatility of a lot of this year's DLs is a bonus), just thought it was kind of an odd comment.

OBF1
03-07-2011, 04:06 AM
Zona said 3-4 DE's. not DL in the 1st round.

driver
03-07-2011, 06:46 AM
Zona said 3-4 DE's. not DL in the 1st round.

True, and there are a lot of good one's in this draft de and dt's. only a few who can play either 3t or 5t, like Dareus in 34 or43..
Is any team actually playing a straight 3-4 or 4-3 anymore it seems like everyone has a hybrid D depending on down and distance?
I've seen projected picks on Watt and jordan and Paea anywhere from #12 in the 1st to the top of the 1st to the top of the second rnd, opens up a lot of possibilities doesn't it. IMO the team releasing Bannen and Williams so early tells us where our 1st 2 picks are going.:yayaya::yayaya:

WolfpackGuy
03-07-2011, 07:13 AM
A great defensive line will make any secondary look decent.

I still think they should trade down (but no more than 3-7 spots) to acquire more picks and beef up the DL.

Pony Boy
03-07-2011, 10:34 AM
A great defensive line will make any secondary look decent.I still think they should trade down (but no more than 3-7 spots) to acquire more picks and beef up the DL.

I don't understand why people don't understand this and I bet Phillip Rivers hopes we take a corner with the first pick and not a DT.....

schaaf
03-07-2011, 10:58 AM
I really don't think anyone is questioning that, but you can't take a D-Lineman with the second pick just because "a great defensive line will make any secondary look decent". The player has to be GREAT. If we pick a player that is bad then we will still have a bad defensive line.

The only D-lineman I see worth taking with that high of a pick is Marcel Dareus.

Shananahan
03-07-2011, 11:02 AM
You don't really want to be taking 3-4 DE's in the 1st round anyway and only a total stud NT would get selected in 1st round for a 3-4 also.
That's the beauty of Dareus, though: his strengths and abilities translate to multiple fronts. He could play 3-4 DE, 4-3 DT, etc. You could bulk him up and play him in a NT-like position. We could slide him to DE in short yardage situations while loading up the interior with even larger players. With our defensive coordinator being a fan of multiple schemes, I think he's the runaway best selection if we decide not to draft Peterson.

TheReverend
03-07-2011, 12:02 PM
A great defensive line will make any secondary look decent.

I still think they should trade down (but no more than 3-7 spots) to acquire more picks and beef up the DL.


I don't understand why people don't understand this and I bet Phillip Rivers hopes we take a corner with the first pick and not a DT.....

Mario Williams, Amobi Okoye, Shaun Cody, Adewale Ogunleye, Antonio Smith and Mark Anderson of the Houston Texans NFL worst pass defense agree with you.

NFLBRONCO
03-07-2011, 12:14 PM
I really don't think anyone is questioning that, but you can't take a D-Lineman with the second pick just because "a great defensive line will make any secondary look decent". The player has to be GREAT. If we pick a player that is bad then we will still have a bad defensive line.

The only D-lineman I see worth taking with that high of a pick is Marcel Dareus.

Exacly my thinking. I wonder though if FO will think because pass rushers are harder to find they go that route instead. Bolster DT later or in FA.

bowtown
03-07-2011, 12:19 PM
Did we keep Nunley on board?

JDub15
03-07-2011, 05:11 PM
As others have stated - can't get trapped into drafting a D-line men because of the fallacy that a great D-line will make any secondary look good, it's simply not true.

This is a cool exercise - here is my list:

Round 1:
1. Patrick Peterson, CB - Best player in the draft of either side of the ball, will become a fixture for years to come - exactly what you want in a top 10 pick.
2. Marcell Dareus, DT/DE - As others have mentioned - very versatile, will impact instantly and should anchor the line for years to come.
3. Cameron Jordan, DE/DT - Another versatile, dominate d-linemen that can play multiple positions.
4. Julio Jones, WR - Tough as nails and a true franchise number one, better than AJ Green IMO.

Don't Draft
Nick Fairly, DT - Glenn Dorsey redux - has been pushed around in the run game, comes with huge character concerns, lack of work ethic will mean it's doubtful he lives up to athletic talent.
Von Miller, OLB - Fits better in the 3-4, is not a complete player.

Round 2
1. Phil Taylor, DT - A huge beast of man, one of the better DT's in the draft and will improve run defense from day one, plus he can push the pocket.
2. Kyle Rudolph - A complete TE, will improve both the run game and the pass game instantly.
3. Stephen Paea, DT - A versatile pass rushing DT, probably not the best against the run though.
4. Aaron Williams, CB - Very good CB that will likely be gone already, but if we pass on Peterson in round one then grabbing Williams in round two would be wise.
4. Danny Watkins, OT/OG - A right tackle or a guard? Doesn't really matter - he will bring the nasty from day one and improve the line.

Don't Draft
Muhammad Wilkerson, DT - Freak athlete but his play doesn't warrant a second round pick.
Christian Ballard, DE - Iowa had an all world line - did he really play that well when you consider the guys next to him?
Marvin Austin, DT - Too many character concerns, doesn't play up to his athletic talent

3rd Round:
1. Jarvis Jenkins, DT - Great player with a great motor, would love to have him on our line.
2. Dontay Moch, DE/OLB - Definitely a better fit for a 3-4 but just get him on the field somewhere and let him cause havoc.
3. Sam Acho, DE/OLB - Under the radar but I think he could contribute right away in the DE rotation.
4. DeMarco Murray, RB - This guys is absurdly explosive, would be a great chance of pace back to pair with Moreno.
5. Brooks Reed OLB - Another guy who probably fits better in the 3-4, but hey you can never have too many pass rushers
6. Luke Stocker, TE - A great blocker who can also make plays, a lesser version of Kyle Rudolph.
7. Ras-I Dowling, CB - Won't create the big play but will be solid in coverage, the anti-Antonio Cromartie if you will

Please Draft:
Casey Matthews, ILB - Is there any doubt? He just makes impact plays at the right time. See Also: National Championship Game.

mattob14
03-07-2011, 06:40 PM
As others have stated - can't get trapped into drafting a D-line men because of the fallacy that a great D-line will make any secondary look good, it's simply not true.

This is a cool exercise - here is my list:

Round 1:
1. Patrick Peterson, CB - Best player in the draft of either side of the ball, will become a fixture for years to come - exactly what you want in a top 10 pick.
2. Marcell Dareus, DT/DE - As others have mentioned - very versatile, will impact instantly and should anchor the line for years to come.
3. Cameron Jordan, DE/DT - Another versatile, dominate d-linemen that can play multiple positions.
4. Julio Jones, WR - Tough as nails and a true franchise number one, better than AJ Green IMO.

Don't Draft
Nick Fairly, DT - Glenn Dorsey redux - has been pushed around in the run game, comes with huge character concerns, lack of work ethic will mean it's doubtful he lives up to athletic talent.
Von Miller, OLB - Fits better in the 3-4, is not a complete player.

Round 2
1. Phil Taylor, DT - A huge beast of man, one of the better DT's in the draft and will improve run defense from day one, plus he can push the pocket.
2. Kyle Rudolph - A complete TE, will improve both the run game and the pass game instantly.
3. Stephen Paea, DT - A versatile pass rushing DT, probably not the best against the run though.
4. Aaron Williams, CB - Very good CB that will likely be gone already, but if we pass on Peterson in round one then grabbing Williams in round two would be wise.
4. Danny Watkins, OT/OG - A right tackle or a guard? Doesn't really matter - he will bring the nasty from day one and improve the line.

Don't Draft
Muhammad Wilkerson, DT - Freak athlete but his play doesn't warrant a second round pick.
Christian Ballard, DE - Iowa had an all world line - did he really play that well when you consider the guys next to him?
Marvin Austin, DT - Too many character concerns, doesn't play up to his athletic talent

3rd Round:
1. Jarvis Jenkins, DT - Great player with a great motor, would love to have him on our line.
2. Dontay Moch, DE/OLB - Definitely a better fit for a 3-4 but just get him on the field somewhere and let him cause havoc.
3. Sam Acho, DE/OLB - Under the radar but I think he could contribute right away in the DE rotation.
4. DeMarco Murray, RB - This guys is absurdly explosive, would be a great chance of pace back to pair with Moreno.
5. Brooks Reed OLB - Another guy who probably fits better in the 3-4, but hey you can never have too many pass rushers
6. Luke Stocker, TE - A great blocker who can also make plays, a lesser version of Kyle Rudolph.
7. Ras-I Dowling, CB - Won't create the big play but will be solid in coverage, the anti-Antonio Cromartie if you will

Please Draft:
Casey Matthews, ILB - Is there any doubt? He just makes impact plays at the right time. See Also: National Championship Game.

Agreed on almost all counts, with the exception of Wilkerson. He brings size, athleticism, and wracked up 23.5 TFL's and 16.5 sacks the past two years. He's been plenty productive.

HAT
03-07-2011, 06:55 PM
As others have stated - can't get trapped into drafting a D-line men because of the fallacy that a great D-line will make any secondary look good, it's simply not true.

This is a cool exercise - here is my list:

Round 1:
1. Patrick Peterson, CB - Best player in the draft of either side of the ball, will become a fixture for years to come - exactly what you want in a top 10 pick.
2. Marcell Dareus, DT/DE - As others have mentioned - very versatile, will impact instantly and should anchor the line for years to come.
3. Cameron Jordan, DE/DT - Another versatile, dominate d-linemen that can play multiple positions.
4. Julio Jones, WR - Tough as nails and a true franchise number one, better than AJ Green IMO.

Don't Draft
Nick Fairly, DT - Glenn Dorsey redux - has been pushed around in the run game, comes with huge character concerns, lack of work ethic will mean it's doubtful he lives up to athletic talent.
Von Miller, OLB - Fits better in the 3-4, is not a complete player.

Round 2
1. Phil Taylor, DT - A huge beast of man, one of the better DT's in the draft and will improve run defense from day one, plus he can push the pocket.
2. Kyle Rudolph - A complete TE, will improve both the run game and the pass game instantly.
3. Stephen Paea, DT - A versatile pass rushing DT, probably not the best against the run though.
4. Aaron Williams, CB - Very good CB that will likely be gone already, but if we pass on Peterson in round one then grabbing Williams in round two would be wise.
4. Danny Watkins, OT/OG - A right tackle or a guard? Doesn't really matter - he will bring the nasty from day one and improve the line.

Don't Draft
Muhammad Wilkerson, DT - Freak athlete but his play doesn't warrant a second round pick.
Christian Ballard, DE - Iowa had an all world line - did he really play that well when you consider the guys next to him?
Marvin Austin, DT - Too many character concerns, doesn't play up to his athletic talent

3rd Round:
1. Jarvis Jenkins, DT - Great player with a great motor, would love to have him on our line.
2. Dontay Moch, DE/OLB - Definitely a better fit for a 3-4 but just get him on the field somewhere and let him cause havoc.
3. Sam Acho, DE/OLB - Under the radar but I think he could contribute right away in the DE rotation.
4. DeMarco Murray, RB - This guys is absurdly explosive, would be a great chance of pace back to pair with Moreno.
5. Brooks Reed OLB - Another guy who probably fits better in the 3-4, but hey you can never have too many pass rushers
6. Luke Stocker, TE - A great blocker who can also make plays, a lesser version of Kyle Rudolph.
7. Ras-I Dowling, CB - Won't create the big play but will be solid in coverage, the anti-Antonio Cromartie if you will

Please Draft:
Casey Matthews, ILB - Is there any doubt? He just makes impact plays at the right time. See Also: National Championship Game.

Excellent post.....

I hope Taylor or Paea are there at #36.

Acho seems like he'd be gone by #67 but who knows. I wouldn't be pissed if Denver took him at 46. I will be pissed if they draft Martez Wilson in the 2nd round period.

Rudolph would be interesting but they can't take him at 36 IMO....If he falls all the way to 46 and they have already drafted Peterson & Paea or Dareus and someone else....Fine, grab him at 46.

Steve Sewell
03-07-2011, 08:08 PM
LOL anyone who's seen Julio Jones and AJ Green actually play football would know that Green is easily the better player. It's not even close. Don't be fooled by combine workouts.

Shananahan
03-07-2011, 08:10 PM
Yeah, I'd take Green in a heartbeat over Jones as well. I'd rather draft him than Miller at the top of the draft, to be honest.

Requiem
03-07-2011, 08:55 PM
The linebacker I'd like most for the team right now is Mason Foster.

broncos-rock
03-07-2011, 09:08 PM
Cam Newton - QB - Player
The Charlotte Observer's Darin Gantt predicts that Auburn QB Cam Newton will be the No. 1 overall pick in the draft.
"I think they were so set on Andrew Luck coming out, they're not going to wait," explains Gantt. "They need a quarterback." Gantt is the most clued-in Panthers beat writer in the country, so it would be difficult to not trust him. He also believes coach Ron Rivera "is going (to Auburn's Pro Day) for a reason," and that's to meet with the Panthers' next franchise quarterback.
Related: Panther


Please Please let this be true!

broncogary
03-07-2011, 09:21 PM
Mario Williams, Amobi Okoye, Shaun Cody, Adewale Ogunleye, Antonio Smith and Mark Anderson of the Houston Texans NFL worst pass defense agree with you.

So where's the great defensive line? The Texans ranked 23rd in sacks.

Okoye, Cody, Ogunleye, Smith, and Anderson are nothing special, and how Mario Williams makes the Pro Bowl is always surprising to me.

broncosteven
03-07-2011, 11:25 PM
I don't understand why people don't understand this and I bet Phillip Rivers hopes we take a corner with the first pick and not a DT.....

I want the best DT on the broncos board, if they can trade down a couple slots to still get that guy and pick up a 2 or a 3rd rounder to get some TE and LB depth I would be good for it.

WABronco
03-07-2011, 11:35 PM
The linebacker I'd like most for the team right now is Mason Foster.

Why's that?

I've watched plenty of Foster the last few years, but I'm just wondering.

pricejj
03-08-2011, 12:01 AM
To me, Dareus is easily the pick that makes the most sense for the Broncos at #2. Although it may be difficult to justify taking him #1 overall, if I were the Panthers I would seriously consider it, unless Cam Newton or Blaine Gabbert blow them away.

1. Dareus (most solid D-Lineman in draft at 320 lbs, awesome pass rush without the drama)
2. Trade down
3. Fairley (dude just dominates, but many red flags, need elite talent at DL)
4. Peterson (best skill position player in the draft)

For everyone saying we should pick up Peterson, and wait to the 2nd round to pick up a 2nd tier D-Lineman. Look at all the high draft picks the Broncos have invested over the last 10 years at the both CB positions:

Bailey (traded Portis 2nd round pick)
Bly (traded Foster and Bell, 1st and 2nd round pick)
Middlebrooks (1st round pick)
Leseuer (3rd round pick)
D-Will (2nd round pick)
Paymah (3nd round pick)
Foxworth (3rd round pick)
Alphonso Smith (...1st round pick)
McBath (2nd round pick)

All the high draft picks the Broncos have invested over the last 10 years on all 4 DL positions:

Dorsett Davis (3rd round, bust, cut, out of league)
Hayward (3rd round, 4 years with Broncos, left via free agency)
Toviessi (2nd round reach, bust, cut, out of league)
Moss (1st round reach, bust, cut)
Crowder (2nd round reach, bust, cut)

See how much the Broncos have invested in CB's? The Broncos now have the worst defense in the NFL.

Shananahan
03-08-2011, 12:19 AM
I see your point, but McBath isn't a cornerback.

strafen
03-08-2011, 12:28 AM
Really like your picks for the #2 spot especially Dareus. He is a heck of a player. But to get him we would have to use that pick #2.No trades possible if we want him. We really need some picks in the 3rd & 4 th rnd thats the reason I've been on the trade band wagon so hard. Never been a fan of Peterson at the 2nd overall no db is that good,except in hind sight of course, The question in my mind is Dareus so good we can't afford to pass on him. The only lb in this draft who is worth picking in the 1st or 2nd rnd is Miller, Wilson Jones and Sturdivant are all 3rd rnd picks imo. Your te's are all good I really like Stocker from Tenn. Rudolph is a possible all pro after a couple of seasons but his injury history scares me. Kendricks maybe? Rb's I like Murray in the 3rd rnd. Helu could be had in the 4th IF WE HAD 4th.Face it we have too many areas of need and not enough picks. I really want the first three picks to go to the D.

I agree. Trading down from the #2 spot will take Dareus out of our plans to get him.

NFLBRONCO
03-08-2011, 12:33 AM
Dareus or Peterson have to be taken @2

cutthemdown
03-08-2011, 03:02 AM
I agree with NFLBRONCO it's going to be Dareus or Peterson. For some reason I really don't want Bowers. I think Ayers and Doom will be good 4-3 ends and we are desperate at DT. Fairly not as big as Dareus but I like him also. I do think though Peterson might be best football player among them.

What would be better a good DT or a great CB? That could be what Elway is asking himself right now.

It's a lot of if's but if Doom get's back to being a great pass rusher, Ayers can be an avg NFL starting DE, and we could draft a true DT stud like Dareus, our dline might actually make some qbs start to worry.

Until you can force qbs to throwing early, on the run, make them move around etc etc you just will get picked apart.

cutthemdown
03-08-2011, 03:04 AM
I agree. Trading down from the #2 spot will take Dareus out of our plans to get him.

It's possible though if another team was game. Broncos missing a 4th rounder right? So Elway would be keen to grab another early pick. Some team offers him a top 10 pick for the 2 hole, and throws in a 2nd rounder may be hard to pass up.

Sort of deep at DT and DE in the draft right.

I don't want to trade down because I really love Dareus and Peterson, but Broncos have a lot of holes to fill, FA might be slim pickens, and they could use extra picks.

I don't think Orton can be spared to be honest. So trading him may not be feasible.

cutthemdown
03-08-2011, 03:06 AM
To me, Dareus is easily the pick that makes the most sense for the Broncos at #2. Although it may be difficult to justify taking him #1 overall, if I were the Panthers I would seriously consider it, unless Cam Newton or Blaine Gabbert blow them away.

1. Dareus (most solid D-Lineman in draft at 320 lbs, awesome pass rush without the drama)
2. Trade down
3. Fairley (dude just dominates, but many red flags, need elite talent at DL)
4. Peterson (best skill position player in the draft)

For everyone saying we should pick up Peterson, and wait to the 2nd round to pick up a 2nd tier D-Lineman. Look at all the high draft picks the Broncos have invested over the last 10 years at the both CB positions:

Bailey (traded Portis 2nd round pick)
Bly (traded Foster and Bell, 1st and 2nd round pick)
Middlebrooks (1st round pick)
Leseuer (3rd round pick)
D-Will (2nd round pick)
Paymah (3nd round pick)
Foxworth (3rd round pick)
Alphonso Smith (...1st round pick)
McBath (2nd round pick)

All the high draft picks the Broncos have invested over the last 10 years on all 4 DL positions:

Dorsett Davis (3rd round, bust, cut, out of league)
Hayward (3rd round, 4 years with Broncos, left via free agency)
Toviessi (2nd round reach, bust, cut, out of league)
Moss (1st round reach, bust, cut)
Crowder (2nd round reach, bust, cut)

See how much the Broncos have invested in CB's? The Broncos now have the worst defense in the NFL.

You forgot Ayers, Marcus Thomas. All this proves is DL and CB and important positions that get drafted over and over in the NFL.

TheChamp24
03-08-2011, 07:17 AM
To me, Dareus is easily the pick that makes the most sense for the Broncos at #2. Although it may be difficult to justify taking him #1 overall, if I were the Panthers I would seriously consider it, unless Cam Newton or Blaine Gabbert blow them away.

1. Dareus (most solid D-Lineman in draft at 320 lbs, awesome pass rush without the drama)
2. Trade down
3. Fairley (dude just dominates, but many red flags, need elite talent at DL)
4. Peterson (best skill position player in the draft)

For everyone saying we should pick up Peterson, and wait to the 2nd round to pick up a 2nd tier D-Lineman. Look at all the high draft picks the Broncos have invested over the last 10 years at the both CB positions:

Bailey (traded Portis 2nd round pick)
Bly (traded Foster and Bell, 1st and 2nd round pick)

See how much the Broncos have invested in CB's? The Broncos now have the worst defense in the NFL.

First, you got your trades of the CB's wrong. Portis was traded for Champ AND a 2nd round pick that turned out to be Tatum Bell. We did NOT give up a 1st and 2nd round pick for Bly. That was Foster(Mr. Turnstile), Tatum Bell(backup RB) and a 5th round pick for Bly.

Second, someone alluded to the Texans DL/Front 7. Do you know how many 1st round /2nd round picks are there? Okoye and Williams are both top 10 picks and where are they in terms of great DL's?

Its not just about taking a CB, its taking the best player available in the draft who many predict will dominate for years at his position. Once a decade type of player, kind of like how Suh was last year. If Peterson wasn't this good I wouldn't want him, but the fact is he IS AMAZING and someone this team can need for the long term.

oubronco
03-08-2011, 07:24 AM
Take Dareus at 2 then take Taylor, Paea, or Austin at 36 throw money at Charles Johnson in FA the line is fixed

Dedhed
03-08-2011, 07:51 AM
Never been a fan of Peterson at the 2nd overall no db is that good,except in hind sight of course,
You understand that this is completely contradictory, right?

Dedhed
03-08-2011, 08:24 AM
The linebacker I'd like most for the team right now is Mason Foster.

I love Mason Foster in the 3rd round if he can convert to play inside. I think he's a little limited athletically for OLB at the next level, and I really want someone who can get DJ out of the Mike position.

I love Foster's instincts, he works through traffic extremely well, knows how to get off blocks, and he's the best tackler I've seen in this class.

Dedhed
03-08-2011, 08:31 AM
Second, someone alluded to the Texans DL/Front 7. Do you know how many 1st round /2nd round picks are there? Okoye and Williams are both top 10 picks and where are they in terms of great DL's?

Its not just about taking a CB, its taking the best player available in the draft who many predict will dominate for years at his position. Once a decade type of player, kind of like how Suh was last year. If Peterson wasn't this good I wouldn't want him, but the fact is he IS AMAZING and someone this team can need for the long term.

You can't get that point through to the "MUST TAKE DL" zombies. They're stuck in the Shanahan draft mode where the position (need) determines who you draft, not the actual talent.

Passing on Peterson this year would be like having passed on Suh last year because you already had a pro bowl DL. Peterson is THE elite talent in this draft just like Suh was THE Elite talent in last years draft.

Dedhed
03-08-2011, 08:34 AM
Take Dareus at 2 then take Taylor, Paea, or Austin at 36 throw money at Charles Johnson in FA the line is fixed

OK Mike, but don't you think it would be better to sign Jason Taylor, Albert Haynesworth and Charles Johnson and then draft Dareus, Paea, Toviessi, Crowder err.., wait

TheReverend
03-08-2011, 08:39 AM
So where's the great defensive line? The Texans ranked 23rd in sacks.

Okoye, Cody, Ogunleye, Smith, and Anderson are nothing special, and how Mario Williams makes the Pro Bowl is always surprising to me.

So you're admitting draft status does not equal production?

bowtown
03-08-2011, 08:53 AM
So you're admitting draft status does not equal production?

http://images2.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/2964827/I-see-what-you-did-there.jpg?imageSize=Large&generatorName=Spongebob-Face

bendog
03-08-2011, 09:04 AM
I think Peterson will be a great player and has no bust potential, but Den's defense sucks so bad that adding a cb/s just isn't going to have an overall impact, no matter how good the guy is. And, there does seem to be a sense of urgency at Dove Valley in getting at least respectable again, as we've become pretty much of a keystone comedy act. Darius is really the only lineman who most likely will not be a bust. He may not be an all pro, but people bring up Mario Williams ... the guy does have 48 sacks over a five year career. He's more than solid, which is more than can be said for anyone on Den's squad. He's not Bruce Smith, but he's on track to put up Neil Smith numbers. But the thing is, Darius may be pretty much a similar guy in that he may have a solid career, but not be HOF. Darius may not be Suh, at least he doesn't project that high as a prospect, but he should be a good NFL DT.

So, I wouldn't be surprised to see a trade down a couple of slots if they like Bowers or Quinn almost as much as Darius. But if Car takes Cam, and I think they will, then Den's 2 pick really doesn't have much value because both Peterson and Darius are much better prospects at their position than the remaining qb's. I agree with this guy's analysis and comment on Fox loving athletic DE's, but Darius really did have a better combine than the DE's guys, and you gotta do something with Doom and Ayers because Den has big salary commitment there.

http://walterfootball.com/draft2011.php

Tenn had a good defense with Henderson and Stroud who made the DE's better because there really wasn't much of a way to double team or even help a tackle unless a team used a TE and running back for pass protection.

A rotation with Darius, Phil Taylor, M. Thomas and Ayers, Doom and Vickerson with two more guys looks at least respectable on paper. And they could do that and STILL have a top 100 pick plus whatever they can get for Orton.

They have Goodman, Bailey and possibly Cox, all of whom have shown they have NFL caliber ability, so cornerback is at least respectable. DJ Williams has been moved around too much, esp for a guy who had a helluva a rookie year at his natural Will position. But, regardless, he doesn't suck so bad he needs to be out of the league. So, that leaves two lb positions and the safety position, where some decisions have to be made on guys like Dawkins and McBath. Is there any talent there?

Inkana7
03-08-2011, 09:04 AM
So you're admitting draft status does not equal production?

Only two of those guys were 1st rounders and one of them is a Pro Bowler.

WolfpackGuy
03-08-2011, 09:11 AM
That shiny new corner will come in handy chasing receivers around all day and tackling running backs downfield (also all day) because the DL is getting its butt kicked up and down the field.

When did the Broncos become so stacked on defense to pass on someone that can help them up front?

Beantown Bronco
03-08-2011, 09:18 AM
When did the Broncos become so stacked on defense to pass on someone that can help them up front?

Damn, it's a real shame that there's only one DT in this draft....

OABB
03-08-2011, 09:24 AM
I was as pro Peterson as anyone... Dareus is my new horse now. He would be a great addition to our team in a real position of need. Suh ruined it for a lot of us.

broncogary
03-08-2011, 09:32 AM
So you're admitting draft status does not equal production?

I never thought that. You were the one alluding that Mario Williams and Amobe Okoye were a dominant DL because they were high draft picks.

JDub15
03-08-2011, 09:39 AM
Peterson will have an Suh like impact on defense, whether he plays safety or corner. Note that the Lions pass defense was still ABYSMAL with one of the more dominate DLs in the league.

My Question - Is everyone hearing Cam is going number one overall? I would think Blaine Gabbert has quite an advantage on him at the moment and I would bet that in the end, Gabbert ends up being the pick.

Cam is scaring teams away with his personality and his terrible combine "throwing" performance... by all accounts Blaine is shining in interviews. With no other consensus number one pick emerging - I think Gabbert goes to Carolina.

And why can't a CB or S go number one or number two overall? Are the teams that passed on Ed Reed,Troy Polamalu, Revis, Charles Woodson happy because they drafted players at supposedly more valuable positions rather than just taking the best player?

TheReverend
03-08-2011, 09:41 AM
I never thought that. You were the one alluding that Mario Williams and Amobe Okoye were a dominant DL because they were high draft picks.

No. This is a thread on draft value for our top selections (see thread title). Then the argument is made that DL will make the secondary look decent.

What I did was show you a team that has invested HEAVILY on the defensive line and front seven (top selections Jason Babin, Travis Johnson, Mario Williams and Amobi Okoye in 4 back to back to back to back years--not to mention Connor Barwin with a high 2nd and a fortune in FA dollars) and where has that gotten their secondary?

Worst pass defense in the league.

A dominant DL will HELP your secondary look good... like a dominant secondary will HELP your DL look good. BUT making the investment is far from a guarantee on production, and DT is hands down the most bust prone position in the NFL.

bowtown
03-08-2011, 09:47 AM
A dominant DL will HELP your secondary look good... like a dominant secondary will HELP your DL look good. BUT making the investment is far from a guarantee on production, and DT is hands down the most bust prone position in the NFL.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Bbq6YWPapNg/TNOcg0qg9pI/AAAAAAAAAIM/5S4QsBVTXD4/s1600/terrence-cody-weigh-in.jpg

TheReverend
03-08-2011, 09:49 AM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Bbq6YWPapNg/TNOcg0qg9pI/AAAAAAAAAIM/5S4QsBVTXD4/s1600/terrence-cody-weigh-in.jpg

http://images2.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/2964827/I-see-what-you-did-there.jpg?imageSize=Large&generatorName=Spongebob-Face

KO5K
03-08-2011, 09:50 AM
My ideal scenario:

Panthers take either Fairly or Bowers.

Before the draft Palmer convinces the Bengals' front office that he will never play for them again and now the Bengals need a QB desperately. They realise the Bills may also go after a QB so they ask us to trade spots so they can get ahead of the Bills and get their guy. They give us a 2nd round pick as part of the deal (better value for the Bengals according to the chart).

Bengals take either Newton or Gabbert.

The Bills then take either Newton or Gabbert (depending on who's left) or Dareus or Peterson or (insert player here).

The Broncos then select either Dareus or Peterson (depending on who's left) with the 4th overall pick.

We walk out of the first round with either Dareus or Peterson (who are the two guys we would likely be targeting at number 2) and an extra 2nd round pick (35th pick overall).

bendog
03-08-2011, 09:52 AM
No. This is a thread on draft value for our top selections (see thread title). Then the argument is made that DL will make the secondary look decent.

What I did was show you a team that has invested HEAVILY on the defensive line and front seven (top selections Jason Babin, Travis Johnson, Mario Williams and Amobi Okoye in 4 back to back to back to back years--not to mention Connor Barwin with a high 2nd and a fortune in FA dollars) and where has that gotten their secondary?

Worst pass defense in the league.

A dominant DL will HELP your secondary look good... like a dominant secondary will HELP your DL look good. BUT making the investment is far from a guarantee on production, and DT is hands down the most bust prone position in the NFL.

--
I know there's an argument that DL will make the DB's look better, but I agree that's its overblown. But the Peterson/Darius thing is that: Peterson projects to excell at his position more than Darius at his, but Den's defense can't defend either the run or the pass, and Darius's position has more impact on both run/pass defense than does Peterson's.

BUT, in 2003 Den had Nick Ferguson and K. Kennedy at safety (and Sam Brandon), but McCaffery was on the way out and R. Smith aging, so they took Lelie and people here continually moan about Ed Reed. Lelie had over 600 yds recieving and Den went 10-6. Ed Reed has obviously been a better player, but would he really have helped Den's personnel needs as much as Pandis Lelie? I don't think so. But the Peterson/Darius choice has some of the same pitfalls.

TheReverend
03-08-2011, 10:00 AM
--
I know there's an argument that DL will make the DB's look better, but I agree that's its overblown. But the Peterson/Darius thing is that: Peterson projects to excell at his position more than Darius at his, but Den's defense can't defend either the run or the pass, and Darius's position has more impact on both run/pass defense than does Peterson's.

Simply not true.

BUT, in 2003 Den had Nick Ferguson and K. Kennedy at safety (and Sam Brandon), but McCaffery was on the way out and R. Smith aging, so they took Lelie and people here continually moan about Ed Reed. Lelie had over 600 yds recieving and Den went 10-6. Ed Reed has obviously been a better player, but would he really have helped Den's personnel needs as much as Pandis Lelie? I don't think so. But the Peterson/Darius choice has some of the same pitfalls.

Is that a serious question and statement?

strafen
03-08-2011, 10:00 AM
It's possible though if another team was game. Broncos missing a 4th rounder right? So Elway would be keen to grab another early pick. Some team offers him a top 10 pick for the 2 hole, and throws in a 2nd rounder may be hard to pass up.

Sort of deep at DT and DE in the draft right.

I don't want to trade down because I really love Dareus and Peterson, but Broncos have a lot of holes to fill, FA might be slim pickens, and they could use extra picks.

I don't think Orton can be spared to be honest. So trading him may not be feasible.The good thing is that trading down doesn't necessarily mean bottom of the first round.
The wildcard in this year's draft is Cam Newton. There are some top-5 teams that want him.
We could swap places with Buffalo so the can get Newton, and still will give us a chance to get Dareus or Peterson, and get some extra picks in the process.
That would in my opinion be the best case scenario...

bendog
03-08-2011, 10:01 AM
Simply not true.



Is that a serious question and statement?

You think corner safety has as much impact to both run and pass defense as DT? What game did you play?

bendog
03-08-2011, 10:02 AM
Simply not true.



Is that a serious question and statement?

yeah, without lelie, den doesn't make the playoffs. You missed that year, I guess

ps, here's cyberquarter.

TheReverend
03-08-2011, 10:02 AM
You think corner safety has as much impact to both run and pass defense as DT? What game did you play?

Yes. Football.

Care to justify why you disagree?

TheReverend
03-08-2011, 10:03 AM
yeah, without lelie, den doesn't make the playoffs. You missed that year, I guess

So you think Denver was better off drafting Lelie than Reed because it better fit the personnel needs of the time?

bendog
03-08-2011, 10:03 AM
Yes. Football.

Care to justify why you disagree?

fooled me.

oubronco
03-08-2011, 10:14 AM
OK Mike, but don't you think it would be better to sign Jason Taylor, Albert Haynesworth and Charles Johnson and then draft Dareus, Paea, Toviessi, Crowder err.., wait

Names not mike and no I wouldn't rather because it really is that easy to fix the d line

TheReverend
03-08-2011, 10:16 AM
fooled me.

So in other words, "I can't justify my statement"?

Shananahan
03-08-2011, 10:16 AM
without lelie, den doesn't make the playoffs. You missed that year, I guess
Yeah, thank God we made the playoffs that year. What a postseason!

Anybody who thinks Lelie helped Denver more as a draft pick than Ed Reed is either a complete idiot or grasping at straws for the sake of an argument.

TheReverend
03-08-2011, 10:19 AM
Yeah, thank God we made the playoffs that year. What a postseason!

Anybody who thinks Lelie helped Denver more as a draft pick than Ed Reed is either a complete idiot or grasping at straws for the sake of an argument.

Kid dun goof'd

Beantown Bronco
03-08-2011, 10:48 AM
Wow, I've supported Lelie more than probably anyone else here and there's no way I'd make that argument bendog.

Pony Boy
03-08-2011, 11:54 AM
1st pick Marcell Dareus

2nd pick Rahim Moore

3rd pick (best running back on the board)

Inkana7
03-08-2011, 12:24 PM
1st pick Marcell Dareus

2nd pick Rahim Moore

3rd pick (best running back on the board)

wtf no

HAT
03-08-2011, 12:37 PM
Anybody who thinks Lelie helped Denver more as a draft pick than Ed Reed is either a complete idiot or grasping at straws for the sake of an argument.

I can't believe he typed that either.

I guess people will do anything to convince themselves that drafting for need trumps BPA.

Like somehow this would be a bad draft if they went:

Peterson
DL
DL
Front 7

broncogary
03-08-2011, 02:53 PM
No. This is a thread on draft value for our top selections (see thread title). Then the argument is made that DL will make the secondary look decent.

What I did was show you a team that has invested HEAVILY on the defensive line and front seven (top selections Jason Babin, Travis Johnson, Mario Williams and Amobi Okoye in 4 back to back to back to back years--not to mention Connor Barwin with a high 2nd and a fortune in FA dollars) and where has that gotten their secondary?

Worst pass defense in the league.

A dominant DL will HELP your secondary look good... like a dominant secondary will HELP your DL look good. BUT making the investment is far from a guarantee on production, and DT is hands down the most bust prone position in the NFL.

It really doesn't matter if they make our secondary look good. Our problem is run defense.

epicSocialism4tw
03-08-2011, 03:04 PM
Broncos top 5:
1 Bowers
2 Dareus
3 Fairley
4 Peterson
5 Miller

BPA Top 5:
1 Bowers
2 Peterson
3 Miller
4 Dareus
5 Fairley

broncosteven
03-08-2011, 03:44 PM
I can't believe he typed that either.

I guess people will do anything to convince themselves that drafting for need trumps BPA.

Like somehow this would be a bad draft if they went:

Peterson
DL
DL
Front 7

BPA didn't help mCd any, I think you have to build this team from the trenches outward.

We need a Stud DT, LB depth way before we take Peterson.

It would be like taking an RB with the 1st round pick when you really need DL help.

bendog
03-08-2011, 03:53 PM
I can't believe he typed that either.

I guess people will do anything to convince themselves that drafting for need trumps BPA.

Like somehow this would be a bad draft if they went:

Peterson
DL
DL
Front 7

So, you think the 2003 broncos make the playoffs without Lelie at wr? Just to be clear here.

But it doesn't matter even if you fail to grasp that they would not have, or even if you've forgotten the offense was built around the cut back with Sonic, and off that shanny used lelie to run deep (he led most of the league in yds per catch) with to run off the corner, with Jake on a naked roll out and Shapre and Smith running parallel to him.

The pt of making the extreme Lelie/Reed analogy to taking BPA v. need was that even if you give up a much better player (reed) for filling a extreme need (mccaffery), YOU DON"T LOSE THAT MUCH if you draft a position where a draft is deep. Donte Stallworth, Lelie and Javon Walker went in the first round. You should get a guy who is a player rather than a extreme disappointment. So, there's a logical argument to be made that taking Darius over Peterson is a wise move. A team is really looking at a bust factor when they draft for need by taking a player at a position where the draft is weak. Then they get a guy who is slotted lower than a guy they pass on, and the guy is already slotted higher than his talent warrants. Nash, and to lesser extents ONeal and Foster.

But anyone who thinks a corner/safety has the same impact on run defense as a tackle who can collapse the pocket on defense has on pass defense, is an idiot.

NFLBRONCO
03-08-2011, 04:02 PM
So, you think the 2003 broncos make the playoffs without Lelie at wr? Just to be clear here.

But even if you fail to grasp that they would not have, or even if you've forgotten the offense was built around the cut back with Sonic, and off that shanny used lelie to run deep (he led most of the league in yds per catch) with to run off the corner, with Jake on a naked roll out and Shapre and Smith running parallel to him.

But the pt of making the extreme Lelie/Reed analogy to taking BPA v. need was that even if you give up a much better player (reed) for filling a extreme need (mccaffery), YOU DON"T LOSE THAT MUCH if you draft a position where a draft is deep. Donte Stallworth, Lelie and Javon Walker went in the first round. You should get a guy who is a player rather than a extreme disappointment. So, there's a logical argument to be made that taking Darius over Peterson is a wise move.

But anyone who thinks a corner/safety has the same impact on run defense as a tackle who can collapse the pocket on defense has on pass defense, is an idiot.

Well I agree and disagree with this post. I've seen alot of teams with pretty darn good DL's and hardly have done much. (See Tenn Jax Houston). Yeah I want an vastly improved DL but, I also want to vastly improve our talent ALL LEVELS of the D. While the DT is the biggest need it will not solve all our issues either. Same goes for Peterson its just one step of many steps to improve this D. I want to go BPA and go from there.

Dareus and Peterson are my top two at our pick. I'll be cool with the others IF we trade down.

TheChamp24
03-08-2011, 04:13 PM
People need to stop looking at improving ONE SEASON and look long term.
For instance, would you rather have a DT to help the run D this season, and in the long run it doesn't help much, or have a stud secondary guy who is perennial Pro Bowler and future HOFer and is a reason why the defense in the future is so good?
This team is REBUILDING. Think long term.

NFLBRONCO
03-08-2011, 04:18 PM
People need to stop looking at improving ONE SEASON and look long term.
For instance, would you rather have a DT to help the run D this season, and in the long run it doesn't help much, or have a stud secondary guy who is perennial Pro Bowler and future HOFer and is a reason why the defense in the future is so good?
This team is REBUILDING. Think long term.

Exactly why Peterson is my #1 choice

cutthemdown
03-08-2011, 04:30 PM
A great corner is worth more then a good DT. Broncos need the best football player they can find. I'm not saying Peterson better then Dareus, I don't know enough about college football to say, but you don't pick by position of need exclusively. It's a combo of who is best player, and what you need the most.

I really like the idea of Peterson (if hes a stud) next to Bailey. Here is why. It could actually extend Champs time at corner. He may not have to guard the other teams best player. Also he may get more interceptions which would make him happy. Or it could let us move him to free safety on 3rd downs etc etc.

footstepsfrom#27
03-08-2011, 04:30 PM
People need to stop looking at improving ONE SEASON and look long term.
For instance, would you rather have a DT to help the run D this season, and in the long run it doesn't help much, or have a stud secondary guy who is perennial Pro Bowler and future HOFer and is a reason why the defense in the future is so good?
This team is REBUILDING. Think long term.
This. You're taking a player this high to hopefully be there an entire career, not just to fix whatever ails us at the moment. You rarely lose by selecting the best player, but you usually do by drafting need over talent.

Peterson is the most NFL ready, the best talent AND fills not one but two needs. In a draft with such depth in the D-line, there's no reason not to jump all over taking him if he's still there. Dareus would be my likely second pick with Miller and Bowers following him and then Fairley.

Miller has gained 9 pounds to 246 and reportedly ran one a 4.46 forty though his official time shows 4.52 or something. He's raising eyebrows though now that he's gained some weight. I wonder if he can keep in on though. I'm slightly leery of guys making major adjustments to their bodies right before the combine or the draft.

broncosteven
03-08-2011, 04:32 PM
People need to stop looking at improving ONE SEASON and look long term.
For instance, would you rather have a DT to help the run D this season, and in the long run it doesn't help much, or have a stud secondary guy who is perennial Pro Bowler and future HOFer and is a reason why the defense in the future is so good?
This team is REBUILDING. Think long term.

I would love to have a guy like Keith Traylor who can make enough of difference year in and out that he makes a guy like Ray Crocket (who I love) look like Champ.

footstepsfrom#27
03-08-2011, 04:33 PM
I would love to have a guy like Keith Traylor who can make enough of difference year in and out that he makes a guy like Ray Crocket (who I love) look like Champ.
When did Ray Crocket ever look like Champ? LOL

Shananahan
03-08-2011, 04:37 PM
The pt of making the extreme Lelie/Reed analogy to taking BPA v. need was that even if you give up a much better player (reed) for filling a extreme need (mccaffery), YOU DON"T LOSE THAT MUCH if you draft a position where a draft is deep.
Except it was a terrible analogy, because Denver actually did lose that much. Lelie played four seasons for Denver and was a great deep threat but little else and has been out of the league for three years. He averaged 42 receptions for 750 yards and three touchdowns per season, never catching more than 54 passes and surpassing 1,000 yards only once. Reed's made multiple pro-bowls, won multiple awards and has a chance at the HOF. But I guess Denver really didn't miss much when it passed on him to get a guy who would eventually help us to go get raped in the playoffs.

Your post is kinda hard to read/understand, but I think I agree with you on the overall value of a great DT to the defense compared to a great CB. The Lelie/Reed stuff makes no sense to me whatsoever.

epicSocialism4tw
03-08-2011, 04:37 PM
People need to stop looking at improving ONE SEASON and look long term.
For instance, would you rather have a DT to help the run D this season, and in the long run it doesn't help much, or have a stud secondary guy who is perennial Pro Bowler and future HOFer and is a reason why the defense in the future is so good?
This team is REBUILDING. Think long term.

People need to quit acting like that guy is a sure thing.

He might be as big as Rocket Ismail or Reggie Bush, in which case we should go all in!

footstepsfrom#27
03-08-2011, 04:53 PM
People need to quit acting like that guy is a sure thing.

He might be as big as Rocket Ismail or Reggie Bush, in which case we should go all in!
There is no such thing as a sure thing, but he's the closest in this draft.

epicSocialism4tw
03-08-2011, 04:56 PM
There is no such thing as a sure thing, but he's the closest in this draft.

I dont think so.

He's an odd bird because of his size. Theres an element of uncertainty there. It might be a weakness of sorts now that CB's are forced to be so hands-off. Not to mention that he looked rigid to me. It may or may not work in the NFL.

I like the guy, but I dont like him more than Bowers, who looks to me like a young Reggie White. Or Dareus, who looks like an active DT in the Raji mold.

footstepsfrom#27
03-08-2011, 05:14 PM
I dont think so.

He's an odd bird because of his size. Theres an element of uncertainty there. It might be a weakness of sorts now that CB's are forced to be so hands-off. Not to mention that he looked rigid to me. It may or may not work in the NFL.

I like the guy, but I dont like him more than Bowers, who looks to me like a young Reggie White. Or Dareus, who looks like an active DT in the Raji mold.
White was 6'5", 300, Bowers is 6'3" 280, a pretty massive difference. Raji is a NT and this guy's a 3-4 DE predominately, though he can move around.

You're undoubtedly the only person saying that Peterson being 220 pounds is a liability, much less than he "may or may not work in the NFL". He might not live up to HOF expectations, but I'm pretty sure he's not considered a potential #1 pick as a CB because scouts think he the way you're thinking. Peterson is a huge Champ Bailey with return skills rivaling the best in the NFL. He'll probably be an all pro for years. I don't think Dareus or any other D-line player approaches that in this draft.

epicSocialism4tw
03-08-2011, 05:19 PM
White was 6'5", 300, Bowers is 6'3" 280, a pretty massive difference. Raji is a NT and this guy's a 3-4 DE predominately, though he can move around.

You're undoubtedly the only person saying that Peterson being 220 pounds is a liability, much less than he "may or may not work in the NFL". He might not live up to HOF expectations, but I'm pretty sure he's not considered a potential #1 pick as a CB because scouts think he the way you're thinking. Peterson is a huge Champ Bailey with return skills rivaling the best in the NFL. He'll probably be an all pro for years. I don't think Dareus or any other D-line player approaches that in this draft.

Peterson isnt anything like Champ Bailey. Champ Bailey was a fluid, smooth, quick, fast athlete coming out of college.

Peterson is a somewhat big, very strong dude with some serious straight line speed. He's not exceptionally fluid or smooth, and he succeeds by maintaining his space and being able to move WR's out of theirs.

Peterson is more Charles Woodson than Champ Bailey.

TheReverend
03-08-2011, 05:19 PM
White was 6'5", 300, Bowers is 6'3" 280, a pretty massive difference. Raji is a NT and this guy's a 3-4 DE predominately, though he can move around.

You're undoubtedly the only person saying that Peterson being 220 pounds is a liability, much less than he "may or may not work in the NFL". He might not live up to HOF expectations, but I'm pretty sure he's not considered a potential #1 pick as a CB because scouts think he the way you're thinking. Peterson is a huge Champ Bailey with return skills rivaling the best in the NFL. He'll probably be an all pro for years. I don't think Dareus or any other D-line player approaches that in this draft.

Raji is also 30 lbs bigger than Dareus.

TheReverend
03-08-2011, 05:20 PM
Peterson isnt anything like Champ Bailey. Champ Bailey was a fluid, smooth, quick, fast athlete coming out of college.

Peterson is a somewhat big, very strong dude with some serious straight line speed. He's not fluid or smooth, and he succeeds by maintaining his space and being able to move WR's out of theirs.

Peterson is more Charles Woodson then Champ Bailey.

You're the only one that believes this

epicSocialism4tw
03-08-2011, 05:23 PM
You're the only one that believes this

I have never been much of a follower.

OABB
03-08-2011, 05:26 PM
I have never been much of a follower.

A Christian republican from Texas? I'm not sure you are anything but a follower.

Now if you were a gay lefty in Texas I'd be inclined to believe you.

TheReverend
03-08-2011, 05:29 PM
I have never been much of a follower.

Or an accurate observer, apparently.

epicSocialism4tw
03-08-2011, 05:30 PM
A Christian republican from Texas? I'm sure you came to all your realizations on your own.

A former atheist with quite an atypical story. A christian complete with naturalistic cosmology and formal biology and chemistry education.

Yeah, that's typical.

A liberal who stereotypes? You're being a little predictable there.

footstepsfrom#27
03-08-2011, 05:31 PM
Peterson isnt anything like Champ Bailey. Champ Bailey was a fluid, smooth, quick, fast athlete coming out of college.

Peterson is a somewhat big, very strong dude with some serious straight line speed. He's not exceptionally fluid or smooth, and he succeeds by maintaining his space and being able to move WR's out of theirs.

Peterson is more Charles Woodson than Champ Bailey.
Having watched him for two years, I don't think you have. You don't get that kind of explosion in the return game without being quick and fluid and I've watched him shadow receivers like a glove. If anything he's amazed scouts by his ability to play the CB position at this size. And being like Charles Woodson's not so bad either if that is how it shakes out...not sure I get your point there. MY point, is that he's the surest bet in the draft, he plays a position of need, he fills a major secondary need as well in the return game and according to coaches, players and scouts, he's got the ability to literally play almost any position on the field outside of the line. Now you add all that up next two a couple D-line guys who have questions about them ranging from character to size to intelligence and you have a guy that deserves to go above them, all things being equal. Since fans are infatuated with the quick fix, all things (at least in fan-world) are not equal.

These are the top six talents on most NFL teams draft boards. ANY one of these guys will help, but I think Peterson over time will be judged to be the best player in this draft. RIGHT NOW, this guy could play any position in the secondary and be in the pro bowl next year.

Peterson
Bowers
Green
Dareus
Miller
Fairley

epicSocialism4tw
03-08-2011, 05:32 PM
Now if you were a gay lefty in Texas I'd be inclined to believe you.

I'm guessing you have never been to Texas.

OABB
03-08-2011, 05:37 PM
A former atheist with quite an atypical story. A christian complete with naturalistic cosmology and formal biology and chemistry education.

Yeah, that's typical.

A liberal who stereotypes? You're being a little predictable there.

I'm no liberal. And yes I stereotype. I'm good at it.

OABB
03-08-2011, 05:41 PM
I'm guessing you have never been to Texas.

I have, many times. I have family from there too.

epicSocialism4tw
03-08-2011, 05:42 PM
[QUOTE]Having watched him for two years, I don't think you have. You don't get that kind of explosion in the return game without being quick and fluid.

That's his vision and his power. He has alot of power in his legs and core. "Power" is a knesiological term that describes the explosion, balance, and leverage you are seeing there. I dont doubt that he's a powerful athlete. I would say that his power is his biggest strength. He also has good vision.

But you'll notice that he doesnt run the ball back like Barry Sanders/Deion Sanders/Champ Bailey, etc...those guys have fluid hips. He returns the ball like Usain Bolt...explosive in straight bursts and his vision leads him to make sharp, intentional cuts. He doesnt "dance" like a guy with fluid hips.

If anything he's amazed scouts by his ability to play the CB position at this size. And being like Charles Woodson's not so bad either if that is how it shakes out...not sure I get your point there.

My point was not to say that he was bad. You guys get all twisted up when someone dares to say he's not the greatest prospect of all time. My point was to say that he's not an athlete like Champ Bailey. He's a different kind of player. More like Charles Woodson, who is also a big, strong CB.


MY point, is that he's the surest bet in the draft, he plays a position of need, he fills a major secondary need as well in the return game and according to coaches, players and scouts, he's got the ability to literally play almost any position on the field outside of the line. Now you add all that up next two a couple D-line guys who have questions about them ranging from character to size to intelligence and you have a guy that deserves to go above them, all things being equal. Since fans are infatuated with the quick fix, all things (at least in fan-world) are not equal.

I dont believe that Peterson is less likely to bust than any of the other top 5 players.

These are the top six talents on most NFL teams draft boards. ANY one of these guys will help, but I think Peterson over time will be judged to be the best player in this draft. RIGHT NOW, this guy could play any position in the secondary and be in the pro bowl next year.

Peterson
Bowers
Green
Dareus
Miller
Fairley

Thats your opinion, and thats fine. My opinion is that there are two to three front seven players whose strengths are just as apparent, and who would better fill a position of need. That makes Peterson an expensive luxury that really doesnt fill a need. That's my opinion.

I think that the Broncos will take Bowers if he's there, and if he's not that they'll take Dareus.

cutthemdown
03-08-2011, 05:45 PM
Also though being compared to Charles Woodson not a bad thing. Peterson is great because he's big. He will certainly add a physical presence on the edge. Talk about shutting down the quick WR screens NFL so loving these days. Peterson will easily put down most WR in that situation because he is technically sound, and big enough. I like how his consistently tackles in a way that looks like football 101. He doesn't get off balance much which is key for a CB.

Him and Bailey roving the edges would make it tough to get the ball downfield to WR vs the Broncos. You throw in Doom coming back, use both 2nd on dline, and Broncos could be decent on defense.

epicSocialism4tw
03-08-2011, 05:46 PM
I have, many times. I have family from there too.

Austin is certainly not conservative.

Houston is different...typical urban environment. San Antonio is literally a melting pot of latino and texan cultures. Dallas is all cocaine and boob jobs. Fort Worth is more like what people think of when they think of Texas.

Texas is probably one of the most diverse states in the country.

cutthemdown
03-08-2011, 05:48 PM
I'm guessing you have never been to Texas.

No but I watched a lot of Walker Texas Ranger. Man you have the dumbest criminals in the country. The try and take on Walker Texas Ranger and lose every time.

Oh and it looks like they are always driving through dusty wasteland. Is it safe to assume Texas is sort of a barren wasteland?

No wonder those guys from Lonesome Dove decided to move north to start a cattle ranch.

Anyways I would rather not live in a state with JR Ewing. That guy ****s everyones bitch.

footstepsfrom#27
03-08-2011, 05:49 PM
That's his vision and his power. He has alot of power in his legs and core. "Power" is a knesiological term that describes the explosion, balance, and leverage you are seeing there. I dont doubt that he's a powerful athlete. I would say that his power is his biggest strength. He also has good vision.

But you'll notice that he doesnt run the ball back like Barry Sanders/Deion Sanders/Champ Bailey, etc...those guys have fluid hips. He returns the ball like Usain Bolt...explosive in straight bursts and his vision leads him to make sharp, intentional cuts. He doesnt "dance" like a guy with fluid hips.



My point was not to say that he was bad. You guys get all twisted up when someone dares to say he's not the greatest prospect of all time. My point was to say that he's not an athlete like Champ Bailey. He's a different kind of player. More like Charles Woodson, who is also a big, strong CB.




I dont believe that Peterson is less likely to bust than any of the other top 5 players.



Thats your opinion, and thats fine. My opinion is that there are two to three front seven players whose strengths are just as apparent, and who would better fill a position of need. That makes Peterson an expensive luxury that really doesnt fill a need. That's my opinion.

I think that the Broncos will take Bowers if he's there, and if he's not that they'll take Dareus.
Your opinion is your opinion, but you seem to have a problem with anyone who has an alternative opinion on this guy. You spend a lot of time wrangling about people complimenting Peterson...not sure why.

I don't care if he runs like Barry Sanders or not...neither does Champ. Fact is...he's a 220 pound shut down corner who is the best athlete in this draft and probably the best DB to come out in ten years according to the pro scouts who get paid to decide this stuff. No D-line player in this draft has raised scouts expectations like Peterson, and comparing Bowers to White, who is far larger at a position where size is paramount, is a huge stretch also.

cutthemdown
03-08-2011, 05:49 PM
I have to admit though epic JR Ewing like my hero growing up. My mom should have never been watching that.

cutthemdown
03-08-2011, 05:52 PM
I sort of want Bowers the least of all the comparisons. I just don't think DE a huge need for the Broncos unless the player can also slide inside on passing downs.

If Broncos take Bowers it tells me they aren't sold on Doom either:

a- coming back strong
b- being big enough for there version of a 4-3 at end
c- still love doom but want to rotate him in on 2nd and 3rd down, and move Bowers inside.

Or i guess it could mean they don't like Ayers.

Seems to me we need both CB and DT way more the DE. But also if Bowers the big stud in the draft then you have to grab him. I wish I knew but I don't watch enough college football. I guess even if you do you don't really know because they don't always play against another great player.

epicSocialism4tw
03-08-2011, 05:54 PM
Your opinion is your opinion, but you seem to have a problem with anyone who has an alternative opinion on this guy. You spend a lot of time wrangling about people complimenting Peterson...not sure why.

I don't care if he runs like Barry Sanders or not...neither does Champ. Fact is...he's a 220 pound shut down corner who is the best athlete in this draft and probably the best DB to come out in ten years according to the pro scouts who get paid to decide this stuff. No D-line player in this draft has raised scouts expectations like Peterson, and comparing Bowers to White, who is far larger at a position where size is paramount, is a huge stretch also.

Reggie White was skinnier coming out of college. He wasnt the beefy powerhouse you remember from Green Bay. I'm not sure that Reggie was a full two inches bigger than Bowers either.

epicSocialism4tw
03-08-2011, 05:56 PM
I sort of want Bowers the least of all the comparisons. I just don't think DE a huge need for the Broncos unless the player can also slide inside on passing downs.

If Broncos take Bowers it tells me they aren't sold on Doom either:

a- coming back strong
b- being big enough for there version of a 4-3 at end
c- still love doom but want to rotate him in on 2nd and 3rd down, and move Bowers inside.

Or i guess it could mean they don't like Ayers.

Seems to me we need both CB and DT way more the DE. But also if Bowers the big stud in the draft then you have to grab him. I wish I knew but I don't watch enough college football. I guess even if you do you don't really know because they don't always play against another great player.

It will depend on Fox's opinion of Ayers in the 4-3 as to whether or not the Broncos choose Bowers.

Up to this point, Ayers has proven to be a nice rotation player, but not a game changer.

TheReverend
03-08-2011, 05:56 PM
My point was not to say that he was bad. You guys get all twisted up when someone dares to say he's not the greatest prospect of all time. My point was to say that he's not an athlete like Champ Bailey. He's a different kind of player. More like Charles Woodson, who is also a big, strong CB.

No. People get "twisted" because you make these ridiculous assertions that his hips aren't fluid when it's exactly the opposite. It'd be like saying Bailey sucks in run support and tackling. Blatantly not true.

epicSocialism4tw
03-08-2011, 06:02 PM
No. People get "twisted" because you make these ridiculous assertions that his hips aren't fluid when it's exactly the opposite. It'd be like saying Bailey sucks in run support and tackling. Blatantly not true.

Well, neither of us get paid for this, so we'll just have to see what he looks like in the pro's, wont we?

I'm confident in what I saw and what I paid for in my undergrad degree. He may not be as rigid as Lenny Walls, but there are physical limitations to the way a person of his size can move. There is literally muscle and connective tissue that prevents the type of rotation in Peterson that someone like Bailey has. You can see it in video if you will allow yourself.

This guy is NOT Champ Bailey, NOT Deion Sanders, but is instead Charles Woodson.

Not a bad thing at all.

Charles Woodson was actually a more accomplished and celebrated college athlete than Peterson.

epicSocialism4tw
03-08-2011, 06:07 PM
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/e1JyhMIJXKE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

footstepsfrom#27
03-08-2011, 06:23 PM
Reggie White was skinnier coming out of college. He wasnt the beefy powerhouse you remember from Green Bay. I'm not sure that Reggie was a full two inches bigger than Bowers either.
I met Reggie White once at an FCA dinner while he was playing in Tennessee. He's a legit 6'5", and if he wasn't 300 he was pretty dang close. Keep in mind, back then offensive linemen were nowhere near this size either. He played most of his career against guys he was probably about the same size as, rather than 30 pounds smaller than. Bowers is not Reggie White and he's not nearly as big. He's also not 6'7" like Julius Peppers. On top of that he seems to have mostly played against opposing team's RT's rather than better pass blocking LT's. I think he's going to be a really good player, but I don't see him like White or Peppers either at this point.

epicSocialism4tw
03-08-2011, 06:34 PM
I met Reggie White once at an FCA dinner while he was playing in Tennessee. He's a legit 6'5", and if he wasn't 300 he was pretty dang close. Keep in mind, back then offensive linemen were nowhere near this size either. He played most of his career against guys he was probably about the same size as, rather than 30 pounds smaller than. Bowers is not Reggie White and he's not nearly as big. He's also not 6'7" like Julius Peppers. On top of that he seems to have mostly played against opposing team's RT's rather than better pass blocking LT's. I think he's going to be a really good player, but I don't see him like White or Peppers either at this point.

He does play quite a bit like Reggie. Its not just the two inches. I'm pretty sure that Bowers is heavier than Reggie was in 1982 when he went into the USFL.

broncosteven
03-08-2011, 07:38 PM
I sort of want Bowers the least of all the comparisons. I just don't think DE a huge need for the Broncos unless the player can also slide inside on passing downs.

If Broncos take Bowers it tells me they aren't sold on Doom either:

a- coming back strong
b- being big enough for there version of a 4-3 at end
c- still love doom but want to rotate him in on 2nd and 3rd down, and move Bowers inside.

Or i guess it could mean they don't like Ayers.

Seems to me we need both CB and DT way more the DE. But also if Bowers the big stud in the draft then you have to grab him. I wish I knew but I don't watch enough college football. I guess even if you do you don't really know because they don't always play against another great player.

If they make a move at DL with the 2nd pick in the draft I sure hope it is a DT and not an end, with Doom and Ayers we have a paper glut at DE right now.

Somewhere in this thread I thought I read a post where some one suggested taking Peterson and with such a deep DL draft using later picks on DT, I could live with that if Peterson was as good as advertized and we hit on a lower round DT.

I would feel alot better picking another CB if we had safety's worth a damn, the old guy who's name escapes me disappeared in games throughout the year. Having 2 shutdown corners out on islands aren't going to help in the middle of the field shutting down the run.

We have 2 above avg run teams in our division we need to be able to stop the run 1st. With the timing patterns Rivers/Manning/Brady are capable of it is impossible to shutdown anyone who is that accurate and instinctive passing the ball.

cutthemdown
03-08-2011, 08:02 PM
If they make a move at DL with the 2nd pick in the draft I sure hope it is a DT and not an end, with Doom and Ayers we have a paper glut at DE right now.

Somewhere in this thread I thought I read a post where some one suggested taking Peterson and with such a deep DL draft using later picks on DT, I could live with that if Peterson was as good as advertized and we hit on a lower round DT.

I would feel alot better picking another CB if we had safety's worth a damn, the old guy who's name escapes me disappeared in games throughout the year. Having 2 shutdown corners out on islands aren't going to help in the middle of the field shutting down the run.

We have 2 above avg run teams in our division we need to be able to stop the run 1st. With the timing patterns Rivers/Manning/Brady are capable of it is impossible to shutdown anyone who is that accurate and instinctive passing the ball.

I think you are talking about Dawkins at safety. Yes I agree he is really slowed down and long in the tooth. He really needs a hot shot FS to help him and there isn't on on the roster.

I think Broncos should look to FA to maybe snag a vet FA safety when all is said and done. A couple good ones, or decent stop gaps usually come up. Then pass on the talented 2nd round safety's and build the front 7. But with that first pick I think Peterson is doable if they think he is best player. If it is a dlineman picked first then I would say a 2nd round or 3rd round flyer on a safety probably not a bad idea.

cutthemdown
03-08-2011, 08:04 PM
Hopefully Cox won't go to prison and will end up a serviceable corner. I think Goodman looked as poor as any defensive starter last yr. Would not be thrilled to see him start again.

broncosteven
03-08-2011, 08:05 PM
I think you are talking about Dawkins at safety. Yes I agree he is really slowed down and long in the tooth. He really needs a hot shot FS to help him and there isn't on on the roster.

I think Broncos should look to FA to maybe snag a vet FA safety when all is said and done. A couple good ones, or decent stop gaps usually come up. Then pass on the talented 2nd round safety's and build the front 7. But with that first pick I think Peterson is doable if they think he is best player. If it is a dlineman picked first then I would say a 2nd round or 3rd round flyer on a safety probably not a bad idea.

Sad thing is there are so many holes it is going to take a couple years. We need LB and OL depth along with some RB and TE help among other things...

TheReverend
03-08-2011, 08:10 PM
Hopefully Cox won't go to prison and will end up a serviceable corner. I think Goodman looked as poor as any defensive starter last yr. Would not be thrilled to see him start again.

If Cox managed to avoid prison and we drafted Peterson, I doubt teams would even bother trying to get a match up in 4 receiver sets :)

pricejj
03-09-2011, 12:11 AM
I see your point, but McBath isn't a cornerback.

Mcbath played as a CB and FS for the Texas Tech Red Raiders.

You forgot Ayers, Marcus Thomas. All this proves is DL and CB and important positions that get drafted over and over in the NFL.

Ayers was drafted as an LB, and has only played that position for the Broncos thus far. We have yet to see what he can do on the DL in the NFL.

Marcus Thomas was drafted in the 4th round. I only listed HIGH draft picks, rounds 1 through 3, to illustrate the Broncos efforts to acquire elite talent.

First, you got your trades of the CB's wrong. Portis was traded for Champ AND a 2nd round pick that turned out to be Tatum Bell. We did NOT give up a 1st and 2nd round pick for Bly. That was Foster(Mr. Turnstile), Tatum Bell(backup RB) and a 5th round pick for Bly.

We traded Portis (2nd round pick) for Bailey, that's what I said. Forgot that we also got a 2nd round pick in return.

Yeah, the Broncos traded a 1st round pick (Foster) and a 2nd round pick (Bell), (plus a 5th) for Dre Bly.

Shananahan
03-09-2011, 12:21 AM
Ayers doesn't count because he was drafted as a LB despite playing DE in college, but McBath counts because he played CB in college despite being drafted as a S?

I'm just nitpicking to keep this thread above the other nonsense about California, the NBA and Tom Brady, etc.

pricejj
03-09-2011, 12:26 AM
The Broncos have had one of the best CB's in the history of the game for the past 7 years, Champ Bailey, while continually sporting one of the league's worst defenses. What in the H*E*L*L is adding another elite CB and 2nd tier DL talent going to do? D-Will was damn good. Dre Bly was damn good. Andre Goodman is freaking solid. NONE of it made a difference.

Until this defense gets a FREAKING pass rush, can stop the run, and actually puts PRESSURE on the offense, they will CONTINUE to be at the bottom of the league. Lucky for us, Elway hired Fox, who understands this concept.

Long term, you need to build from the trenches out. It's not ONLY about who is the fastest,with the most fluid hips, and the prettiest smile. Understand the game. You NEED to control the POINT OF ATTACK.

DRAFT DAREUS.

epicSocialism4tw
03-09-2011, 12:31 AM
The Broncos have had one of the best CB's in the history of the game for the past 7 years, Champ Bailey, while continually sporting one of the league's worst defenses. What in the H*E*L*L is adding another elite CB and 2nd tier DL talent going to do? D-Will was damn good. Dre Bly was damn good. Andre Goodman is freaking solid. NONE of it made a difference.

Until this defense gets a FREAKING pass rush, can stop the run, and actually puts PRESSURE on the offense, they will CONTINUE to be at the bottom of the league. Lucky for us, Elway hired Fox, who understands this concept.

Long term, you need to build from the trenches out. It's not ONLY about who is the fastest,with the most fluid hips, and the prettiest smile. Understand the game. You NEED to control the POINT OF ATTACK.

DRAFT DAREUS.

Hear! Hear!

Shananahan
03-09-2011, 12:38 AM
Could Von Miller play DT if he gained sixty pounds?

pricejj
03-09-2011, 12:48 AM
Ayers doesn't count because he was drafted as a LB despite playing DE in college, but McBath counts because he played CB in college despite being drafted as a S?

... I'll give it to ya :approve:

pricejj
03-09-2011, 01:12 AM
Go ahead, clone Champ Bailey and put him on the right side. Our defense will still suck.

serious hops
03-09-2011, 01:23 AM
The Broncos have had one of the best CB's in the history of the game for the past 7 years, Champ Bailey, while continually sporting one of the league's worst defenses. What in the H*E*L*L is adding another elite CB and 2nd tier DL talent going to do? D-Will was damn good. Dre Bly was damn good. Andre Goodman is freaking solid. NONE of it made a difference.



Yea, but it's gonna be different this time! YOU'LL SEE!


LOL

Shananahan
03-09-2011, 01:31 AM
I don't think you guys fully realize what Peterson would bring to this team. I refer you to this quote:

He's not "a safety, with quicks" but he could play there and probably be an all pro. In fact several coaches, players and scouts have said he could play any sklil position on the team including QB.


He could learn from one of the best in Bailey, solve our return game problems, fill Thomas' role while he rehabs and provide Tebow with a running game when Moreno gets hurt.

footstepsfrom#27
03-09-2011, 02:12 AM
I don't think you guys fully realize what Peterson would bring to this team. I refer you to this quote:

Quote:
He's not "a safety, with quicks" but he could play there and probably be an all pro. In fact several coaches, players and scouts have said he could play any sklil position on the team including QB.

He could learn from one of the best in Bailey, solve our return game problems, fill Thomas' role while he rehabs and provide Tebow with a running game when Moreno gets hurt.
Nobody says he's going to do any of that, but he's the kind of athlete who COULD, which is the point.

footstepsfrom#27
03-09-2011, 02:28 AM
The Broncos have had one of the best CB's in the history of the game for the past 7 years, Champ Bailey, while continually sporting one of the league's worst defenses. What in the H*E*L*L is adding another elite CB and 2nd tier DL talent going to do? D-Will was damn good. Dre Bly was damn good. Andre Goodman is freaking solid. NONE of it made a difference.

Until this defense gets a FREAKING pass rush, can stop the run, and actually puts PRESSURE on the offense, they will CONTINUE to be at the bottom of the league. Lucky for us, Elway hired Fox, who understands this concept.

Long term, you need to build from the trenches out. It's not ONLY about who is the fastest,with the most fluid hips, and the prettiest smile. Understand the game. You NEED to control the POINT OF ATTACK.

DRAFT DAREUS.
This team will take three drafts to build before it's ready to really compete. It doesn't matter which draft you add defensive line talent in. This one happens to be so deep in D-line guys you can get first round talent in the 2nd round, which is great for us. Denver has the ammo to draft two stud D-line guys AND Peterson, and that doesn't even count what additional draft ammo we might get for Orton if he's traded. That point has been made in here ad infinitum, ad nauseum...yet this myth still persists because people have this silly idea that a rookie defensive tackle is going to come in here and turn this thing around by himself and suddenly we're contenders, and it's not going to happen like that. It doesn't matter who we draft at #2 this year, we're still going to suck on defense because we can't fix this in one draft, or even two. As of right now, this team has only two guys who will even be on this defense in three years, Bailey and Doom...three at most if Ayers steps up. The rest will be ancient history or playing minor roles...and Bailey will be a safety or nearing the end. Drafting TALENT and especially PLAYMAKERS is the key to building a championship defense, and you find those guys wherever and whenever you find them. When the consensus of scouts is that a guy is the best player to come out at his position in a decade, you're foolish if you have a shot to draft him and you allow yourself to be sucked in by the sirens song of immediate gratification at the expense of taking the best talent.

cutthemdown
03-09-2011, 02:50 AM
Predictions on how many drafts it will take to be good are sort of fantasy. If we were on top of AFC west in 3 yrs the Elway is a god of all that is football. Seriously footsteps prediction is not a bummer, he is being optimistic.

To be a really good team we probably need:

1-better DT's and Doom to heal. Ayers to be at least avg.
2- better safety's
3- At least 1 more good starting CB
4- SSL, MLB
5- TE
6- maybe interior oline like a guard and center.

That doesn't even scratch the questions at WR, IE is LLoyd really a top flight number 1, is Tebow going to be good, and do the RBS have any talent.

mhgaffney
03-09-2011, 03:15 AM
My ideal scenario:

Panthers take either Fairly or Bowers.

Before the draft Palmer convinces the Bengals' front office that he will never play for them again and now the Bengals need a QB desperately. They realise the Bills may also go after a QB so they ask us to trade spots so they can get ahead of the Bills and get their guy. They give us a 2nd round pick as part of the deal (better value for the Bengals according to the chart).

Bengals take either Newton or Gabbert.

The Bills then take either Newton or Gabbert (depending on who's left) or Dareus or Peterson or (insert player here).

The Broncos then select either Dareus or Peterson (depending on who's left) with the 4th overall pick.

We walk out of the first round with either Dareus or Peterson (who are the two guys we would likely be targeting at number 2) and an extra 2nd round pick (35th pick overall).

Vonderful!

Let's hope so...

TheChamp24
03-09-2011, 07:38 AM
We traded Portis (2nd round pick) for Bailey, that's what I said. Forgot that we also got a 2nd round pick in return.

Yeah, the Broncos traded a 1st round pick (Foster) and a 2nd round pick (Bell), (plus a 5th) for Dre Bly.

No, we traded Portis for Bailey and a 2nd round pick. Foster and Bell and a 5th for Bly.
Where the players were drafted is irrelevant when we traded them.
By that logic I could say we traded Portis(2nd Round) For Champ(1st round) and a 2nd round pick.

Go ahead, clone Champ Bailey and put him on the right side. Our defense will still suck.

People, people, people.
Even if we draft Dareus or whoever for the front 7, guess what, our defense will still suck this year. This team is rebuilding and going to take a couple years, so draft the best player, not the most needed position.

I wouldn't mind Dareus being picked, but we have to consider Peterson due to his enormous talent.

Old Dude
03-09-2011, 08:30 AM
I don't think that the D necessarily has to suck this year. Make the right moves with the right players and the right coaching and they could quickly improve to "above average." Other teams have accomplished similar improvements.

But, at least in the short term, it generally depends more on the hits and misses in free agency than in the draft.

No idea who the Broncos plan on bringing in at this point, but it looks like there will be plenty of vacancies.

Cito Pelon
03-09-2011, 10:15 AM
It will depend on Fox's opinion of Ayers in the 4-3 as to whether or not the Broncos choose Bowers.

Up to this point, Ayers has proven to be a nice rotation player, but not a game changer.

True.

I think Ayers was the main reason why they decided they want the 4-3 as the base. Ayers is not a 3-4 OLB, never will be. With Elvis and Ayers at DE in the 4-3, that frees them up to draft elsewhere on D. They have the passrusher DE and the strong side DE with Ayers.

They have quite a bit invested in those two already, it's time to invest in DT (Fairley/Dareus), or LB (Von Miller), or Peterson.

From what I've heard they want to draft a difference-maker for the D. IMO, they've narrowed it down to Fairley and Peterson, maybe Von Miller. That Miller seems like a guy you want on your team real bad.

I'm kinda curious if they somehow want to draft DE if maybe Robert Quinn would be ahead of Bowers on the Bronco board.

misturanderson
03-09-2011, 10:31 AM
I don't think that the D necessarily has to suck this year. Make the right moves with the right players and the right coaching and they could quickly improve to "above average." Other teams have accomplished similar improvements.

But, at least in the short term, it generally depends more on the hits and misses in free agency than in the draft.

No idea who the Broncos plan on bringing in at this point, but it looks like there will be plenty of vacancies.
This team has accomplished similar improvements, only to fall back to the black hole that is Denver's defense one year later.

epicSocialism4tw
03-09-2011, 10:34 AM
I don't think that the D necessarily has to suck this year. Make the right moves with the right players and the right coaching and they could quickly improve to "above average." Other teams have accomplished similar improvements.

I dont disagree with that at all.

If the Broncos were to bring in a DT with a certain level of dominance (probably wishful thinking on my part), they would take care of some major issues. You'd have the return of Dumervil and the addition of a player who actually establishes some power at the point of attack. That could revolutionize the defense on its own.

The front seven was so pathetic last season that it couldnt effect the run game or the pass game. It was easily the weakest aspect of the team, and was so bad that it could be argued that it was the weakest aspect of any team in the NFL because of how pathetic it made the entire defense.

misturanderson
03-09-2011, 10:35 AM
I'm kinda curious if they somehow want to draft DE if maybe Robert Quinn would be ahead of Bowers on the Bronco board.

Doubtful. The guy has been out of the game for a year and is essentially a more athletic, taller Dumervil, whereas Bowers has some real size and run-stopping ability to go along with elite pass rushing ability.

I truly hope that Quinn isn't considered for the #2 pick and especially not ahead of Bowers (or Dareus or Peterson for that matter). Hell, I'd prefer Cam Jordan personally.

epicSocialism4tw
03-09-2011, 10:44 AM
This team has accomplished similar improvements, only to fall back to the black hole that is Denver's defense one year later.

Thats because they never have found a long-term solution for the front 7 woes.

When the defense was decent, and it helped get the Broncos to the AFC title game, it coincided with the peak play of the "Browncos" and Denver had the great Al Wilson, Trevor Pryce, Ian Gold, and Williams. That's a strong defense against the run. The only thing missing from that defense was a pass rush. A pass rush would have won Denver a title that season.

The front 7 in Denver now is absolutely pathetic. If someone would have told me back in 2005 that Denver's front 7 would be this pathetic in 2011, I wouldnt have believed it because we were spoiled.

Why dont we have good front 7 players today? Because we have not made it a priority. When Denver could have taken Haloti Ngata or Broderick Bunkley in 2006 after that AFC title game loss, they took a QB...of which they already had a starter. A perfect example of a situation where taking a flashy skill position BPA and kicking the can down the road ended up hurting the Broncos long term.

Hopefully Fox will be smarter than that.

HAT
03-09-2011, 02:13 PM
Thats because they never have found a long-term solution for the front 7 woes.

When the defense was decent, and it helped get the Broncos to the AFC title game, it coincided with the peak play of the "Browncos" and Denver had the great Al Wilson, Trevor Pryce, Ian Gold, and Williams. That's a strong defense against the run. The only thing missing from that defense was a pass rush. A pass rush would have won Denver a title that season.

The front 7 in Denver now is absolutely pathetic. If someone would have told me back in 2005 that Denver's front 7 would be this pathetic in 2011, I wouldnt have believed it because we were spoiled.

Why dont we have good front 7 players today? Because we have not made it a priority. When Denver could have taken Haloti Ngata or Broderick Bunkley in 2006 after that AFC title game loss, they took a QB...of which they already had a starter. A perfect example of a situation where taking a flashy skill position BPA and kicking the can down the road ended up hurting the Broncos long term.

Hopefully Fox will be smarter than that.

Did you just call Cutler the BPA at #11 in 2006?

JDub15
03-10-2011, 10:14 AM
The Broncos had a top 10 defense a long, long time, ago, all the way back in the year 2009. This is of course according to Defensive DVOA via www.footballoutsiders.com (If you're still using total yards allowed to compare defenses... well that's a you problem).

Things to remember:
Less injuries mean that improvement in 2011 will come regardless of what moves they make. The Broncos defense was absurdly injured in 2010 - I think we sometimes forget that injuries have a big impact on performance. In 2009 the Broncos were the healthiest defense in the league, in 2010 - one of the most injured. They should be somewhere in between in 2011.

While the Broncos pass defense was consistently terrible all season, the rush defense actually improved from bad (31st) in the first half to average (16th) in the second of half.

Similar, the Broncos rush offense greatly improved from 32nd in the first half, all the way up to 8th in the second half. Yep the Broncos were a top 10 rushing offense the second half of 2010. (Again this is based on DVOA).

Given that the pass offense was great all year long (minus a few games of course), there should be serious optimism for 2011. If the Broncos hit on a few picks, and make a few prudent free agent moves, there's no reason they cannot win the AFC West in 2011.

Draft BPA Patrick Peterson and don't look back! And yes I agree that his best comparison is Charles Woodson. I have dreams of the Broncos using Peterson on CB blitzes, ohhhh that would be nasty. :)

Beantown Bronco
03-10-2011, 10:32 AM
The Broncos had a top 10 defense a long, long time, ago, all the way back in the year 2009. This is of course according to Defensive DVOA via www.footballoutsiders.com (If you're still using total yards allowed to compare defenses... well that's a you problem).

Sure. They were #1 or #2 up until week 6 or so (due mostly to smoke and mirrors a la Coyer) and then they were like #30 over the 2nd half of the year. It may have averaged top 10 in the end according to some specific metrics, but it was clearly not a top 10 unit at the end of the year.

While the Broncos pass defense was consistently terrible all season, the rush defense actually improved from bad (31st) in the first half to average (16th) in the second of half.

Probably because teams just passed at will instead.

Similar, the Broncos rush offense greatly improved from 32nd in the first half, all the way up to 8th in the second half. Yep the Broncos were a top 10 rushing offense the second half of 2010. (Again this is based on DVOA).

I find that extremely hard to believe. I can only guess that Tebow's rushing really tainted the 2nd half numbers. There's really no way that you can argue that we had a top 10 rushing offense last year. You just can't IMO.

JDub15
03-10-2011, 11:01 AM
Sure. They were #1 or #2 up until week 6 or so (due mostly to smoke and mirrors a la Coyer) and then they were like #30 over the 2nd half of the year. It may have averaged top 10 in the end according to some specific metrics, but it was clearly not a top 10 unit at the end of the year.



Probably because teams just passed at will instead.



I find that extremely hard to believe. I can only guess that Tebow's rushing really tainted the 2nd half numbers. There's really no way that you can argue that we had a top 10 rushing offense last year. You just can't IMO.

In 2009 the pass defense was excellent all year, the rush defense fell from 2nd in the first half to 31st in the second half.

In total defense they were 2nd in the first half, and 9th in the second half. So while the rush defense fell apart, they were still a good defense overall.

Good point about TT making the rushing stats look better - but even before he replaced Orton they were still running the ball much better - they gashed KC in both games, SD in the Monday night game, and STL.

TT probably really skewed the numbers against HOU and the second game against SD.

Still, we can say the rush offense got significantly better after the bye, which I believe was when Ryan Harris returned and they moved Beadles to his natural position of LG.

Rumor had it that they almost dealt Harris to Chicago before the trade deadline, but the deal fell apart. I assume they let him walk because he's pretty average but will probably command more in the open market than he is worth, so addressing the RT position will become important via the draft or FA.

bowtown
03-10-2011, 11:06 AM
I assume they let him walk because he's pretty average but will probably command more in the open market than he is worth, so addressing the RT position will become important via the draft or FA.

He's already been tendered. You really think a team is going to take a RFA flyer on Harris and give up a 3rd for him? I hope so.

Beantown Bronco
03-10-2011, 11:09 AM
In 2009..........In total defense they were 2nd in the first half, and 9th in the second half. So while the rush defense fell apart, they were still a good defense overall.


I'd love to know how they calculate that "9th" ranking in the 2nd half of 2009.

Not counting special teams scores and pick sixes, here are the points given up over the last 8 games: 32, 30, 30, 28, 27, 20, 13 and 6. That's 2....maybe 3 decent performances out of 8 and that somehow merits a ranking of "9"? Yikes.

JDub15
03-10-2011, 11:10 AM
He's already been tendered. You really think a team is going to take a RFA flyer on Harris and give up a 3rd for him? I hope so.

True, but the tender may be meaningless depending on the new CBA. He'll be entering his 5th year, so I'm guessing that the new CBA will designate him as a UFA instead of an RFA.

The language they put in place for new rookie wage scale said something about rookies becoming RFA's in their 4th year, and UFA's in their 5th.

If the tender sticks I seriously doubt anyone will give up a 3rd for him? Maybe Shanny? But if someone did - we should take it in a heartbeat.

JDub15
03-10-2011, 11:12 AM
I'd love to know how they calculate that "9th" ranking in the 2nd half of 2009.

Not counting special teams scores and pick sixes, here are the points given up over the last 8 games: 32, 30, 30, 28, 27, 20, 13 and 6. That's 2....maybe 3 decent performances out of 8 and that somehow merits a ranking of "9"? Yikes.

Yeah - to be honest I'd have to do some more research - could be the offense was putting them in bad positions? Not really sure, the ranking also could be inflated.

DVOA does adjust for competition whereas points allowed does not - so that's one thing to consider.

bowtown
03-10-2011, 11:19 AM
True, but the tender may be meaningless depending on the new CBA. He'll be entering his 5th year, so I'm guessing that the new CBA will designate him as a UFA instead of an RFA.

The language they put in place for new rookie wage scale said something about rookies becoming RFA's in their 4th year, and UFA's in their 5th.

If the tender sticks I seriously doubt anyone will give up a 3rd for him? Maybe Shanny? But if someone did - we should take it in a heartbeat.

We'll see. I'd guess that new CBA will not be retroactive. Something tells me that they aren't going to ask Sam Bradford to give his 50mil back.

JDub15
03-10-2011, 11:34 AM
We'll see. I'd guess that new CBA will not be retroactive. Something tells me that they aren't going to ask Sam Bradford to give his 50mil back.

Yeah I'm not 100% sure to be honest, I guess we will see :)