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alkemical
03-03-2011, 12:34 PM
I'd like some feedback from you ladies on the mane as well:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/20110228/ts_dailybeast/12649_whyaremenangrymanningupauthorkayhymowitzexpl ains

NEW YORK – Why Are Men So Angry?Men in their twenties and thirties are fed up with women, but author Kay Hymowitz says you can’t blame them when women are demanding equality except when it comes to romance.

About a week ago, The Wall Street Journal published an excerpt of my new book, which argued that the new stage I call pre-adulthood—the twenties and early thirties—was not bringing out the best in single young men. Some men didn’t like it. As in, “cancel-my-subscription-the-writer-should-contract-such-a-bad-case-of-carpel-tunnel-syndrome-she-never-writes-again” didn’t like it.

But a lot of the responses unwittingly proved my point—and another one: Men are really, really angry. Consider: “We’re not STUCK in pre-adulthood, we choose it because there aren’t any desirable American women. They’ve been bred to abuse men.” This fairly typical response that appeared at the Seattle Post Intelligencer website: “Sorry ladies. In the age of PlayStation 3s, 24-hours-a-day sports channels, and free Internet porn, you are now obsolete. All that nagging, whining, and stealing our hard earned cash have finally caught up to you."

Shocked? I wasn t. During the last few years researching this age group, I’ve stumbled onto a powerful underground current of male bitterness that has nothing to do with outsourcing, the Mancession, or any of the other issues we usually associate with contemporary male discontent. No, this is bitterness from guys who find the young women they might have hoped to hang out with entitled, dishonest, self-involved, slutty, manipulative, shallow, controlling—and did I mention gold-digging?

Check out the websites like names like MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way), Nomarriage.com, or EternalBachelor.com (“Give Modern Women the Husband They Deserve. None.”). Or read popular bloggers like the pseudonymous Roissy, a ferociously caustic dissector of female “sluttiness” and “**** tests” (attempts to manipulate men). There are dozens upon dozens of gurus and counselors who publish posts like “42 Things Wrong With American Women” while chat forums ruminate over how “American Women Suck.”

Women may want equality at the conference table and treadmill. But when it comes to sex and dating, they aren’t so sure.

So, is this what Susan Faludi famously called the backlash? Is it immaturity, as my own book seems to suggest? Is it the Internet as an escape valve for decades of pent-up rebellion against political correctness? Or, is it just good, old-fashioned misogyny?

A bit of all of the above, probably. But there’s another reason for these rants, one that is far less understood. Let’s call it gender bait and switch. Never before in history have men been matched up with women who are so much their equal—socially, professionally, and sexually. By the time they reach their twenties, they have years of experience with women as equal competitors—in school, on soccer fields, and even in bed. They very reasonably assume that the women they are meeting at a bar or café or gym are after the same things they are: financial independence, career success, toned triceps, and sex.

That’s the bait; here comes the switch. Women may want equality at the conference table and treadmill. But when it comes to sex and dating, they aren’t so sure. The might hook up as freely as a Duke athlete. Or, they might want men to play Greatest Generation gentleman. Yes, they want men to pay for dinner, call for dates—a writer at the popular dating website The Frisky titled a recent piece “Call me and ask me out for a damn date!”—and open doors for them. A lot of men wonder: “WTF??!” Why should they do the asking? Why should they pay for dinner? After all, they are equals and in any case, the woman a guy is asking out probably has more cash in her pocket than he does; recent female graduates are making more than males in most large cities.

Sure, girls can—and do—ask guys out for dinner and pick up the check without missing a beat. Women can make that choice. Men say they have no choice. If they want a life, they have to ask women out on dates; they have to initiate conversations at bars and parties, they have to take the lead on sex. Women can take a Chinese menu approach to gender roles. They can be all “Let me pay for the movie tickets” on Friday nights, and “A single rose? That’s it?” on Valentine’s Day.

Far worse in the bait and switch category is women’s stated preference for nice guys and actual attraction to bad boys. Now, clearly this is not true for all women. Many, maybe even most, want a guy with the sweetness of a Jimmy Stewart and sensitivity of Ashley Wilkes. But enough of them are partial to the Charlie Sheens of this world that one popular dating guru, David DeAngleo, lists “Being Too Much of a Nice Guy” as No. 1 in his “Ten Most Dangerous Mistakes Men Make With Women.” At a website with the evocative name Relation****.com, (“Brutally honest dating advice for the cynical, bitter, and jaded,” and sociological cousin of Dating-is-Hell.com) the most highly trafficked pages are those asking the question why women don’t like good guys.

PlayStations and Internet porn? For a lot of guys, they seem like the better way.

Kay S. Hymowitz is the William E. Simon Fellow at the Manhattan Institute and a contributing editor of City Journal. Her new book is Manning Up.

broncosteven
03-03-2011, 12:42 PM
For every generation the rules are a little different.

Not sure I understood the whole point of the piece, men are staying home and not looking for love because the availability of porn and playstations? Nothing ever replaces touch and someone to talk to. Interview the same guys in 10-15 years and you will likely find them either in or searching for some kind of relationship.

alkemical
03-03-2011, 12:43 PM
For every generation the rules are a little different.

Not sure I understood the whole point of the piece, men are staying home and not looking for love because the availability of porn and playstations? Nothing ever replaces touch and someone to talk to. Interview the same guys in 10-15 years and you will likely find them either in or searching for some kind of relationship.

I'm 32 and have given up on finding a "good" woman. One who is willing to work hard, one who doesn't feel entitled, etc.

I just found "other" things to do, and stopped focusing on "Marriage, family, etc".

broncosteven
03-03-2011, 12:47 PM
I'm 32 and have given up on finding a "good" woman. One who is willing to work hard, one who doesn't feel entitled, etc.

I just found "other" things to do, and stopped focusing on "Marriage, family, etc".

I was 28 before I found mine, her sister is 40 and in her 1st relationship since I met her over 15 years ago.

It is hard to find your soul mate, don't give up just be ready when she does come along.

alkemical
03-03-2011, 12:49 PM
I was 28 before I found mine, her sister is 40 and in her 1st relationship since I met her over 15 years ago.

It is hard to find your soul mate, don't give up just be ready when she does come along.

I don't think there is such a thing as a soul mate to be honest.

I'm more focused on trying to create a discussion between men and women on what the problems are.

I personally feel that Disney and Porn have ruined the expectations for two generations of people:

Women want their faery tales, and men are looking for their whores.

enjolras
03-03-2011, 12:49 PM
I get where these guys are coming from. I'm in that age group (early thirties) and it can be kind of nuts. I'm lucky in that I met a down-to-earth woman very early on, but I've witnessed it through my friends. It's not just relationships either. I've been harassed while hanging out in the park near my house eating lunch. Apparently a single man within 200 feet of a playground is clearly there to molest children.

I don't think "gold-digging" is anything new, but man it sure is out in the open these days. I'm a man of some means... and I've had women on many occasions try to tear me away from my wife. I had one go so far as to mention to my wife that I was having an affair (I wasn't).

Hell I'm not even that attractive (skinny white guy), but that doesn't seem to matter much.

I've had friends who have had girlfriends drop them for being laid off. I had a friend break up with his girlfriend because the engagement ring he bought wasn't big enough to impress her friends.

I get why guys my age would be dog tired of it all.

On top of that we've been hugely emasculated. Popular culture is filled with the goofy, idiot husband who only gets by because his wife is there to save him. We've seen good intentioned ideas (like cracking down on sexual harassment) taken to the extremes (really, it's a bad idea to talk to a woman in the workplace if you're a man).

It's kind of a crappy time to be a man these days.

It's honestly the reason I love Colorado above all else. 90% of the lunacy I've witnessed has happened far from here. It seems to be rampant in the south (Arkansas/Dallas) and east coasts from what I can tell.

vancejohnson82
03-03-2011, 12:50 PM
this piece really doesnt say anything

I'm 28 and I agree with the "internet porn, Playstation 3" bachelorhood statement that the author makes. At this point in my life I would rather spend my money on myself, avoid adding conflict to my life and be able to use my time as I like without anyone else having any input on it

I'm a little angry, but it has to do with the caliber of girls I tend to date. At this point in time all the desirable girls seem to be in long term relationships or they arent interested in dating anyone at all.

Funny enough, all the guys who I hung out with in my early twenties who I would consider "womanizers" (sleeping with tons of people) are getting married to nice, respectable women. Not sure what that says about anything

I'm sure in 2-5 years I'll feel completely different.

jhns
03-03-2011, 12:50 PM
Why are men so angry? Josh McDaniels.

Luckily we have found the cure to the horrible disease McDanielsruinseverythingitis. Now we can begin the healing process. I have been much less angry as of late. I hear the disease is spreading rapidly Rams country though.

As for the article, it sounds like he is taking a bunch of no pussy getting nerds a little too seriously. Women are a pain in the ass but they sweet poon is worth it.

bronco militia
03-03-2011, 12:50 PM
**** YOU ASSHOLE!!!!!!!

Archer81
03-03-2011, 12:51 PM
Pre-adulthood is a man's 20's and early 30s...then what was the previous 19 years? Pre-humanhood?...

Porn has existed as long as mankind has. I am not sure about it being some huge thing recently, and Playstations and Xboxes are not exactly the exclusive domain of men.

The best thing to do is find a person you can talk to and laugh with. Forget what society says a relationship MUST be and work towards what you and the other person want. Silly article.

:Broncos:

broncosteven
03-03-2011, 01:01 PM
...The best thing to do is find a person you can talk to and laugh with. Forget what society says a relationship MUST be and work towards what you and the other person want. Silly article.

:Broncos:

I agree, I think your same sex friends are just as much Soul Mates as your wife or lover mate thing. I am not a big believer in religion but I believe in gravity and we are where we are attracted to and orbit around the people we do for a reason.

20 years ago when I was in my 20's I was just as bitter as Ak, but I didn't give up on it and when I found the one I didn't let her get away.

I do think women expect men to read their minds and they may talk about wanting equal rights but when they kids they want to be back in 1860 where the man brings home the bacon and they stay home and play house.

alkemical
03-03-2011, 01:03 PM
I agree, I think your same sex friends are just as much Soul Mates as your wife or lover mate thing. I am not a big believer in religion but I believe in gravity and we are where we are attracted to and orbit around the people we do for a reason.

20 years ago when I was in my 20's I was just as bitter as Ak, but I didn't give up on it and when I found the one I didn't let her get away.

I do think women expect men to read their minds and they may talk about wanting equal rights but when they kids they want to be back in 1860 where the man brings home the bacon and they stay home and play house.

I'm not bitter, but i'm interested in this "discussion".

gyldenlove
03-03-2011, 01:03 PM
Pre-adulthood is a man's 20's and early 30s...then what was the previous 19 years? Pre-humanhood?...

Porn has existed as long as mankind has. I am not sure about it being some huge thing recently, and Playstations and Xboxes are not exactly the exclusive domain of men.

The best thing to do is find a person you can talk to and laugh with. Forget what society says a relationship MUST be and work towards what you and the other person want. Silly article.

:Broncos:

You can divide the previous 19 years into 3 phases: childhood, hormonal irregularity and idiocy, the balances these occur in may change from individual to individual, but they all occur pretty universally.

vancejohnson82
03-03-2011, 01:07 PM
Just to throw in another point of discussion to this:

I'm 28 and nowhere close to being in the position of owning a house. 90% of my friends aren't married.

20 years ago this would be unheard of, am I right?

cutthemdown
03-03-2011, 01:08 PM
Wow so women are crazy? Like we didn't know that. What they want one yr is different the next. They want to be equals on decisions but then also want the man to take a stand and make decisions. They want man to pay, but want to make as much or more then we do.

Lev Vyvanse
03-03-2011, 01:09 PM
You can divide the previous 19 years into 3 phases: childhood, hormonal irregularity and idiocy, the balances these occur in may change from individual to individual, but they all occur pretty universally.

I have very fond memories of my idiot years. Looking back though, I find it hard to believe I survived.

gyldenlove
03-03-2011, 01:09 PM
I am in that same age group (30) and I to some extend agree with the premise of the piece, the gender equality and to some extend confusion in the social sphere is counterproductive when it comes to classic romance.

If I am at the gym and a girl asks if she can work in between sets, sure thing, but if I have just seen you do reps with 100 pounds on the bench press then don't expect me to open the door for you, I know you can do it. If I am at work and I find out a girl is making substantially more than me, then don't expect me to pick up the cab fare, the tickets and the dinner tab, I know you can pay your own way. If I am in a discussion with a girl at work about some subtlety in her research, then don't expect me to ask you out unless you show there is a chance, I know you know how to communicate.

The problem is not the equality in the social and professional sphere, the problem is the princess syndrome, that girls want to feel special and they want to be treated special. Of course not all girls are like this, but a good many are.

alkemical
03-03-2011, 01:09 PM
Wow so women are crazy? Like we didn't know that. What they want one yr is different the next. They want to be equals on decisions but then also want the man to take a stand and make decisions. They want man to pay, but want to make as much or more then we do.

This is a problem in our culture. We want our cake, and eat it too. (the best of both)

gyldenlove
03-03-2011, 01:09 PM
I have very fond memories of my idiot years. Looking back though, I find it hard to believe I survived.

The idiot years can be a blessing or a curse, I know mine varied wildly but overall they were pretty sweet.

Archer81
03-03-2011, 01:11 PM
You can divide the previous 19 years into 3 phases: childhood, hormonal irregularity and idiocy, the balances these occur in may change from individual to individual, but they all occur pretty universally.


Agreed. But to include a person's entire 20s and half of their 30s as pre-adulthood is just ridiculous. I realize everyone is different, but if a 30 year old is doing the same thing for the same reasons they were when they were 18 they wont suddenly become an adult at 35. That person is just immature.

:Broncos:

TonyR
03-03-2011, 01:13 PM
Porn has existed as long as mankind has. I am not sure about it being some huge thing recently...

The availabilty of porn on the internet has dramatically altered the industry over the last several years. You must be a fairly young guy to not be more aware of what a huge change has occurred in porn. I'd link you up some really good articles on the topic but don't really want to search for them from my desk at work if you know what I mean...

Archer81
03-03-2011, 01:13 PM
Just to throw in another point of discussion to this:

I'm 28 and nowhere close to being in the position of owning a house. 90% of my friends aren't married.

20 years ago this would be unheard of, am I right?


Twenty years ago people got married right out of highschool and had two or three kids by the time they turned 28. I know girls from HS who were the I am an independent woman and the minute HS ended they did a semester of college, met some dude and got married within a year. Odd how that worked out.

:Broncos:

Doggcow
03-03-2011, 01:14 PM
I don't think there is such a thing as a soul mate to be honest.

I'm more focused on trying to create a discussion between men and women on what the problems are.

I personally feel that Disney and Porn have ruined the expectations for two generations of people:

Women want their faery tales, and men are looking for their whores.

I actually found my "whore" once. She was so much fun. I totally rescued her from a horrible situation and all that, total prince charming and everything. Sadly, it didn't work out at all though. Weird.

broncosteven
03-03-2011, 01:16 PM
Twenty years ago people got married right out of highschool and had two or three kids by the time they turned 28. I know girls from HS who were the I am an independent woman and the minute HS ended they did a semester of college, met some dude and got married within a year. Odd how that worked out.

:Broncos:

And once the nest is empty they divorce and it starts all over again.

Archer81
03-03-2011, 01:17 PM
The availabilty of porn on the internet has dramatically altered the industry over the last several years. You must be a fairly young guy to not be more aware of what a huge change has occurred in porn. I'd link you up some really good articles on the topic but don't really want to search for them from my desk at work if you know what I mean...


Porn has its uses. That use ends when you actually find someone to sleep with. And even then imitating what you see in porn with an actual person is not the best idea. What I meant was that people (men particularly) are visual creatures. The venus statues they found all over Europe and central Asia and the ME is ancient porn. A headless nude woman with a giant rack.

:Broncos:

broncosteven
03-03-2011, 01:17 PM
I'm not bitter, but i'm interested in this "discussion".

Sorry, I was bitter, didn't mean to put words into your mouth.

TonyR
03-03-2011, 01:17 PM
Wow so women are crazy? Like we didn't know that. What they want one yr is different the next. They want to be equals on decisions but then also want the man to take a stand and make decisions. They want man to pay, but want to make as much or more then we do.

Man they are all ****ing insane. It's all a matter of degrees but they are all batsh*t crazy to at least some degree.

To the overall topic, I don't think that women being independent earners is a bad thing but I do think it is probably the largest part of the "problem" being brought to light in the OP article.

vancejohnson82
03-03-2011, 01:19 PM
I actually found my "whore" once. She was so much fun. I totally rescued her from a horrible situation and all that, total prince charming and everything. Sadly, it didn't work out at all though. Weird.

Just got myself out of a situation like that. She had been in an abusive relationship with an unemployed high school dropout. I was like a "dream" to her (her words, not mine)

after a year and a half I guess she got bored and cheated on me for months with an 18 year old kid who works at Home Depot

Last I heard she had just had an abortion and was still with him even though he was arrested for hitting her

Can't make a ho into a housewife, kids

Archer81
03-03-2011, 01:21 PM
Wow so women are crazy? Like we didn't know that. What they want one yr is different the next. They want to be equals on decisions but then also want the man to take a stand and make decisions. They want man to pay, but want to make as much or more then we do.


Women are crazy. Men are too. The difference is its crazy in two languages that are close enough for you to get the gist of it but not really get it. Like Italian and Spanish. Eventually you just stop trying to figure it out.

:Broncos:

alkemical
03-03-2011, 01:23 PM
I actually found my "whore" once. She was so much fun. I totally rescued her from a horrible situation and all that, total prince charming and everything. Sadly, it didn't work out at all though. Weird.

I really think that women don't want a "nice guy". They say they do, but they really don't.

Archer81
03-03-2011, 01:27 PM
I really think that women don't want a "nice guy". They say they do, but they really don't.


I think they do. They just dont know what a good guy is. They have not defined that for themselves yet and end up finding guys that fit societal/hollywood versions of the "nice guy".

:Broncos:

epicSocialism4tw
03-03-2011, 01:29 PM
I am in that same age group (30) and I to some extend agree with the premise of the piece, the gender equality and to some extend confusion in the social sphere is counterproductive when it comes to classic romance.

If I am at the gym and a girl asks if she can work in between sets, sure thing, but if I have just seen you do reps with 100 pounds on the bench press then don't expect me to open the door for you, I know you can do it. If I am at work and I find out a girl is making substantially more than me, then don't expect me to pick up the cab fare, the tickets and the dinner tab, I know you can pay your own way. If I am in a discussion with a girl at work about some subtlety in her research, then don't expect me to ask you out unless you show there is a chance, I know you know how to communicate.

The problem is not the equality in the social and professional sphere, the problem is the princess syndrome, that girls want to feel special and they want to be treated special. Of course not all girls are like this, but a good many are.

After being in a highly competitive college environment and work environment with women for a long time, you kind of lose that gentile sense. You get to see up close and personal what some women will do to get ahead. One of the graduate profs that work in research at my school was fired because he was "getting it in" with students looking for positions and grades. But are those women likely to "get it in" with the guy that buys them dinner? No.

Thats just the way things are.

I think its a case of women wanting their cake and to eat it too. They want the successful guy with the Harley to be chivalrous and kind, but they dont want to keep themselves sexy for him and to please him sexually.

Well ladies, this just in...guys want sex. If you arent keeping yourself attractive and making it interesting, he's going to look elsewhere. Be it porn or an affair or another woman in marriage.

Thats just the way things are.

Its the natural state of man. Whether or not you agree with it is irrelevant. Men dont like alot of things about women either, but they put up with them to get what they want too.

That's the brutal naturalistic perspective.

The moral perspective is much more complicated.

alkemical
03-03-2011, 01:30 PM
I think they do. They just dont know what a good guy is. They have not defined that for themselves yet and end up finding guys that fit societal/hollywood versions of the "nice guy".

:Broncos:


I don't think you've dated enough of them to know. No offense. But what they say, and what they do/want are two different things.

They want their faery tales.

bronclvr
03-03-2011, 01:30 PM
I really think that women don't want a "nice guy". They say they do, but they really don't.


Look at it this way-when you are young and starting out, did you want a nice girl or a steaming-sex-from-the-pores hottie? Well, Women really aren't that much different than we are-then, when it's time to settle down, they want to play House-in the end, the good guy wins-

alkemical
03-03-2011, 01:33 PM
Look at it this way-when you are young and starting out, did you want a nice girl or a steaming-sex-from-the-pores hottie? Well, Women really aren't that much different than we are-then, when it's time to settle down, they want to play House-in the end, the good guy wins-

Disagree, the good guy loses in our culture.

bronclvr
03-03-2011, 01:34 PM
Well ladies, this just in...guys want sex. If you arent keeping yourself attractive and making it interesting, he's going to look elsewhere. Be it porn or an affair or another woman in marriage.


My wife has one night a week with the girls, and beleive me, they talk about Sex, situations regarding Sex, Toys and the whole gambit-the same things we talk about-they really aren't that different from us when you get into their World-

Archer81
03-03-2011, 01:35 PM
I don't think you've dated enough of them to know. No offense. But what they say, and what they do/want are two different things.

They want their faery tales.


None taken. For me this is all guesswork. I dont have to deal with women in a romantic way. But the fairytale is the problem. What is being sold to women as a good guy does not exist. They need to figure out what a good guy is to them, and go find him.

:Broncos:

alkemical
03-03-2011, 01:35 PM
None taken. For me this is all guesswork. I dont have to deal with women in a romantic way. But the fairytale is the problem. What is being sold to women as a good guy does not exist. They need to figure out what a good guy is to them, and go find him.

:Broncos:

I can agree with that.

Kaylore
03-03-2011, 01:38 PM
I got married and while it has it's issues, it is 100 times better than dating. Dating really does take it out of you. The cost is pretty bad, but what got mean was how emotionally draining each failed date was. Each time it took a little bit more out of me and made me less willing to try. I also agree that part of the problem is women don't know what they want, but are sure to complain when they aren't getting it. And they have extremely unrealistic expectations.

A lot of women expect men to magically know what they want; On holidays, for gifts, frequency of romantic evenings, specifics of romantic exchanges, for presents, sexually - many of them think "you should know" and then if you bother to ask them point blank, they get annoyed and think it diminishes the act if they tell you. So they set themselves, or really men, up for disappointment. It's pathological.

Having said that, when I finally fell in love with someone that reciprocated that love to me, a lot of these things were diminished, if not eliminated completely. Sure, we have new problems, and having children will land us an entire new continent of issues to deal with, but the soul-draining act of dating is one thing I do not miss AT ALL.

Smiling Assassin27
03-03-2011, 01:41 PM
you're just wookin' in all the wrong places, gents:

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MgFDv_4oKsw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Archer81
03-03-2011, 01:43 PM
I am happy I date men. I already have the men's handbook and speak fluent dude. Small blessings.


:Broncos:

bronclvr
03-03-2011, 01:43 PM
Disagree, the good guy loses in our culture.

You will learn Grasshopper, but it takes time and finding the right girl-in the end, for me at least, it took three marriages to figure it out. I finally wised up that I had to find someone who had the same Morals, Values and Work Ethic (or close), and to be easy to be around, to make it work, instead of how she looked in a Bikini (although my first Wife could make me weak in the knees, the current still can)-

All along she was looking for a good guy and ended up with idiots-she, and a lot of other Women out there, believe there aren't any (or very few) good guys left, but it has to be a certain type of Woman who has her head on straight, knows what she wants and has the Morals/Values thing going on.

alkemical
03-03-2011, 01:47 PM
You will learn Grasshopper, but it takes time and finding the right girl-in the end, for me at least, it took three marriages to figure it out. I finally wised up that I had to find someone who had the same Morals, Values and Work Ethic (or close), and to be easy to be around, to make it work, instead of how she looked in a Bikini (although my first Wife could make me weak in the knees, the current still can)-

All along she was looking for a good guy and ended up with idiots-she, and a lot of other Women out there, believe there aren't any (or very few) good guys left, but it has to be a certain type of Woman who has her head on straight, knows what she wants and has the Morals/Values thing going on.



Well, considering I don't look for barbie and have looked for a "good fit" - I think your comments are off target and out of scope for the conversation.

Yet, you have to acknowledge the flipside that while these women don't know what they want - they also have pulled the same douchebag moves and have jaded the same "guys".

cmhargrove
03-03-2011, 01:51 PM
I'll just throw my two cents in there, because this is an interesting topic.

I met my wife in college (had several girlfriends and "experiences" before I met her. I got the "partying" out of my system). We got married after Junior year, and i'm coming up on 20 years of marriage. We have three boys, work together, play together, and look forward to when the kids are gone because we have "us plans" for the future.

We go out for happy hour together once a week and from what I see, it would be really rough to be single these days. I mean, great if you are just looking for something physical, but the whole shallow electronic facebook culture makes me want to puke. Relationships are devalued, people are generally selfish, and everyone is in search of "what's best for me." If you don't like where you are, finding 20 replacements is as quick as posting those personal desires on the internet.

I don't have the answers for everyone, but it is my feeling that true relationships are based on "we" and not just "me." There are things bigger than ourselves, and things people can become "together" that are better than what would be experienced alone. For my wife and I, faith is an essential component because it mandates proper communication and understanding of roles (including the need for healthy sex). When we can't agree as individuals, we both still have a higher authority that we have agreed to submit to. Sometimes that is frustrating, but in the long run, I feel lucky.

So, when both men and women are angry and unfulfilled, "whom" do they submit to? For me, that is an essential question of faith.

cutthemdown
03-03-2011, 01:55 PM
Man they are all ****ing insane. It's all a matter of degrees but they are all batsh*t crazy to at least some degree.

To the overall topic, I don't think that women being independent earners is a bad thing but I do think it is probably the largest part of the "problem" being brought to light in the OP article.

What I notice is that women now rip like men do. I mean they like to talk smack like the boys. I see a lot of men whose women will make fun of them, disagree with them in public. That is one thing that has changed a lot since the time of our parents in the 50-60's. A good woman will tell hubby or boyfriend how she feels, but not in front of him family and friends like they do today. They emasculate men way too much.

Sounds funny because we are supposed to be strong but women have to understand once you start doing that your man will struggle with confidence, or go cheat on you. Or both.

cutthemdown
03-03-2011, 01:58 PM
I'll just throw my two cents in there, because this is an interesting topic.

I met my wife in college (had several girlfriends and "experiences" before I met her. I got the "partying" out of my system). We got married after Junior year, and i'm coming up on 20 years of marriage. We have three boys, work together, play together, and look forward to when the kids are gone because we have "us plans" for the future.

We go out for happy hour together once a week and from what I see, it would be really rough to be single these days. I mean, great if you are just looking for something physical, but the whole shallow electronic facebook culture makes me want to puke. Relationships are devalued, people are generally selfish, and everyone is in search of "what's best for me." If you don't like where you are, finding 20 replacements is as quick as posting those personal desires on the internet.

I don't have the answers for everyone, but it is my feeling that true relationships are based on "we" and not just "me." There are things bigger than ourselves, and things people can become "together" that are better than what would be experienced alone. For my wife and I, faith is an essential component because it mandates proper communication and understanding of roles (including the need for healthy sex). When we can't agree as individuals, we both still have a higher authority that we have agreed to submit to. Sometimes that is frustrating, but in the long run, I feel lucky.

So, when both men and women are angry and unfulfilled, "whom" do they submit to? For me, that is an essential question of faith.

Great post man! Sounds like you are your lady are doing it right and it is working for you. Good luck with the kids, and that alone time when they are raised.

Rock Chalk
03-03-2011, 02:00 PM
I don't think there is such a thing as a soul mate to be honest.

I'm more focused on trying to create a discussion between men and women on what the problems are.

I personally feel that Disney and Porn have ruined the expectations for two generations of people:

Women want their faery tales, and men are looking for their whores.

That's cause you haven't found her.

The problem is simple. Men in their 20s are stupid, women in their 20s are stupid, and both gender's think they know it all.

I do agree with the premise that women want equality but still want the "other" things that were afforded them prior to equality. You know, like chivalry. If they want to be treated as equals, let it be across the board. No more pandering as if they are the "fair" sex. They are the equal sex so they can do equal work. Men are expected now to help with household chores, then women should be expected to lift that heavy box into the attic by herself. To fix the garbage disposal. Afterall, they can do anything a man can do, only better (even though I have yet to see a woman write her name in the snow with her own pee better than a man).

Disney and Porn haven't ruined anything and these problems are not new, they are just more apparent because any twit with a keyboard can express him/herself on the internet and millions of idiots read their **** every day.

alkemical
03-03-2011, 02:02 PM
That's cause you haven't found her.

The problem is simple. Men in their 20s are stupid, women in their 20s are stupid, and both gender's think they know it all.

I do agree with the premise that women want equality but still want the "other" things that were afforded them prior to equality. You know, like chivalry. If they want to be treated as equals, let it be across the board. No more pandering as if they are the "fair" sex. They are the equal sex so they can do equal work. Men are expected now to help with household chores, then women should be expected to lift that heavy box into the attic by herself. To fix the garbage disposal. Afterall, they can do anything a man can do, only better (even though I have yet to see a woman write her name in the snow with her own pee better than a man).

Disney and Porn haven't ruined anything and these problems are not new, they are just more apparent because any twit with a keyboard can express him/herself on the internet and millions of idiots read their **** every day.


Lots of women want their faery tale wedding. That's a Disney influence...the happily ever after. Same way with soul mates.

Men want their whores due to the way porn has influenced them.

It HAS changed. Look at each side of the entitlements that each sex wants.

ColoradoDarin
03-03-2011, 02:05 PM
I think they do. They just dont know what a good guy is. They have not defined that for themselves yet and end up finding guys that fit societal/hollywood versions of the "nice guy".

:Broncos:

I think part of the problem is men tend to define "good guy" as "guy who lets women walk all over him" instead of "guy with values."

alkemical
03-03-2011, 02:06 PM
I think part of the problem is men tend to define "good guy" as "guy who lets women walk all over him" instead of "guy with values."


I agree with this.

vancejohnson82
03-03-2011, 02:09 PM
Lots of women want their faery tale wedding. That's a Disney influence...the happily ever after. Same way with soul mates.

Men want their whores due to the way porn has influenced them.

It HAS changed. Look at each side of the entitlements that each sex wants.

I totally disagree with the "men want their whores" thing.

Most of the girls I end up meeting give me that "whore" type vibe and I avoid them like the plague. Been there, done that. It's easy game but the end result is predictable and lame. Kinda like the difference between deep sea fishing and deep sea trolling. On the one hand you can sit in one spot and catch a fish every 5 minutes but you're getting bluefish and crap. With the trolling you might get one bite in three hours but its gonna be something big

Irish Stout
03-03-2011, 02:10 PM
What I notice is that women now rip like men do. I mean they like to talk smack like the boys. I see a lot of men whose women will make fun of them, disagree with them in public. That is one thing that has changed a lot since the time of our parents in the 50-60's. A good woman will tell hubby or boyfriend how she feels, but not in front of him family and friends like they do today. They emasculate men way too much.

Sounds funny because we are supposed to be strong but women have to understand once you start doing that your man will struggle with confidence, or go cheat on you. Or both.

Its double standards man. Even if a woman starts tearing you down, you're the bigger ass and less of a man if you attack her back. Men cannot tear down women, but women can do and say whatever they want in public and they do. If a man says a damn thing he has to worry about other men and women ganging up on him and he'll look like an assclown.

There are good men and good women out there, but often times they find eachother and what is left are the confused people and the remaining good people. You hear all the time from both sexes that its hard to find a good partner or that all the good ones are gone. I don't see how anyone can meet each other anymore.

alkemical
03-03-2011, 02:12 PM
Here's another question:

Where are the SINGLE women? Do single women even exist?

alkemical
03-03-2011, 02:13 PM
I totally disagree with the "men want their whores" thing.

Most of the girls I end up meeting give me that "whore" type vibe and I avoid them like the plague. Been there, done that. It's easy game but the end result is predictable and lame. Kinda like the difference between deep sea fishing and deep sea trolling. On the one hand you can sit in one spot and catch a fish every 5 minutes but you're getting bluefish and crap. With the trolling you might get one bite in three hours but its gonna be something big


Men do want their whores.

vancejohnson82
03-03-2011, 02:16 PM
Men do want their whores.

Just out of curiosity, how old are you?

(Don't read that in an "attacking" type way, I'm just trying to gauge the range of ages in this discussion)

vancejohnson82
03-03-2011, 02:18 PM
Here's another question:

Where are the SINGLE women? Do single women even exist?

if you're looking for women with values and not whores, Happy Hours are a great places to meet women.

Go with a buddy from work, and its easy to start a convo with a few women. Right off the bat, you have something in common: you both work and you both drink (or hang out at bars)

alkemical
03-03-2011, 02:18 PM
Just out of curiosity, how old are you?

(Don't read that in an "attacking" type way, I'm just trying to gauge the range of ages in this discussion)

I am 32. I'm trying to get a discussion going about this.

I hear a lot of my female friends bitch about immaturity and irresponsibility.

From a guys perspective, well - I have my "bitches" about women. :p

alkemical
03-03-2011, 02:19 PM
if you're looking for women with values and not whores, Happy Hours are a great places to meet women.

Go with a buddy from work, and its easy to start a convo with a few women. Right off the bat, you have something in common: you both work and you both drink (or hang out at bars)

I am not worried about it. I got enough stuff going on that I don't have time to date or worry about it.

This is about conversation, NOT ME.

PS - i find going to bar to be the biggest waste of time if you want to "meet" someone.

ColoradoDarin
03-03-2011, 02:21 PM
Here's another question:

Where are the SINGLE women? Do single women even exist?

Do you want a woman with good values and will also value you as a man? Then head off to church. There's a caveat though, she's going to want a man with good values and to value her as a woman, and it's not going to be a meat/meet market. Who knows, you might just find your soul saved in addition to finding a mate.

vancejohnson82
03-03-2011, 02:22 PM
I am not worried about it. I got enough stuff going on that I don't have time to date or worry about it.

This is about conversation, NOT ME.

PS - i find going to bar to be the biggest waste of time if you want to "meet" someone.

going to a bar at NIGHT is a terrible waste of time. Thats when the trash is at it

happy hours right after work are great

i wasn't trying to call you out in the thread at all, dude....I just enjoy the conversation and hearing other people's perspectives

I feel kinda the same way. Too much going on in my life right now to add another distraction/time waster

alkemical
03-03-2011, 02:22 PM
Do you want a woman with good values and will also value you as a man? Then head off to church. There's a caveat though, she's going to want a man with good values and to value her as a woman, and it's not going to be a meat/meet market. Who knows, you might just find your soul saved in addition to finding a mate.

****ing dammit people.

THIS CONVERSATION ISN'T ABOUT ME, BUT ABOUT THE GENDER ROLES IN OUR CULTURE.

WHY DO WOMEN BITCH ABOUT IMMATURE MEN.

WHY DO MEN NOT WANT TO DEAL WITH WOMEN'S ****.

We need a dialogue.

alkemical
03-03-2011, 02:24 PM
going to a bar at NIGHT is a terrible waste of time. Thats when the trash is at it

happy hours right after work are great

i wasn't trying to call you out in the thread at all, dude....I just enjoy the conversation and hearing other people's perspectives

I feel kinda the same way. Too much going on in my life right now to add another distraction/time waster

LOL, it would be good if I didn't have a dog that I had to go home and take care of.

Here's another part of the equation:

I hear so many women bitch about men coming up and talking to them at a "bar", "gym", etc etc.

They feel assaulted to be approached. How does this change, or where does this come from.

ColoradoDarin
03-03-2011, 02:24 PM
****ing dammit people.

THIS CONVERSATION ISN'T ABOUT ME, BUT ABOUT THE GENDER ROLES IN OUR CULTURE.

WHY DO WOMEN b**** ABOUT IMMATURE MEN.

WHY DO MEN NOT WANT TO DEAL WITH WOMEN'S ****.

We need a dialogue.

You want to know why, there it is. ^^^^^^^^

alkemical
03-03-2011, 02:25 PM
You want to know why, there it is. ^^^^^^^^

It is a little frustrating when people can't stay on topic in a conversation. After answering for the 50th time that this isn't a conversation about me, it gets annoying.

ColoradoDarin
03-03-2011, 02:27 PM
It is a little frustrating when people can't stay on topic in a conversation. After answering for the 50th time that this isn't a conversation about me, it gets annoying.

I was laughing since the thread title is "Why Are Men So Angry?" :peace:

alkemical
03-03-2011, 02:27 PM
I was laughing since the thread title is "Why Are Men So Angry?" :peace:

LOL!

Touche!

vancejohnson82
03-03-2011, 02:29 PM
It is a little frustrating when people can't stay on topic in a conversation. After answering for the 50th time that this isn't a conversation about me, it gets annoying.

you said, "where are all the single women?"

I said Happy Hours, he said Church...not sure why you thought it was directed at you

thread on

alkemical
03-03-2011, 02:30 PM
you said, "where are all the single women?"

I said Happy Hours, he said Church...not sure why you thought it was directed at you

thread on

:p

Miss I.
03-03-2011, 02:44 PM
The truth is the relationship between men and women is f-ked up by both sides of the equation. Not all men are a-holes or nice guys. Most fall somewhere in between, vascillating between asshats and good guys. Men are moody too, don't know why you all think we are the only ones subject to mood swings and confusion. Women are the same and yes we are also still adjusting to finally being in a an equitable position. The old rules no longer apply to dating exactly, but some still do, but it's on the individuals dating to sort that out. It's really easy to play the blame game, but in the end both sides are to blame for this quagmire. I've made my share of mistakes, it's called life experiences, the real failure is not learning and moving on. I could easily write off men as shallow narcissists who can't see beyond the exterior and in many cases that does apply, but to say all men are that way would say something more about my own psychology, not theirs. Some women (some of whom I know) are money grubbing expecting men and anyone else they can leach off of to take care of them. Others of us prefer to pay our own way, but are still unsure of what to do with first and second dates? what is the rule exactly these days? I admit I've stumbled, blown off guys in hindsight I truly regret simply because I was too insecure and couldn't figure out why they'd like me so I imagined some wrong and dumped them before they could dump me. Stupid on my part, no doubt, but I am not evil or horrible, just occasionally prone to human errors. I give most guys the benefit of the same doubt. I just got out of a very bad situation and I could hate all men, he did after all try to physically hurt me and other things and I could blame you all, but that would be dumb. What I did learn is just to be more careful about letting people in. Take my time, get to know them for a long period of time before allowing mushy stuff to cloud my brain of normal rational thought.

and as for meeting people, I find focusing on just joining in on things I already like (e.g. joining a hiking group, etc...meetup.com for instance has interesting things) leads to making real connections based on common interests regardless of the dating thing. Friends are good to have, regardless of gender.

alkemical
03-03-2011, 02:56 PM
The truth is the relationship between men and women is f-ked up by both sides of the equation. Not all men are a-holes or nice guys. Most fall somewhere in between, vascillating between asshats and good guys. Men are moody too, don't know why you all think we are the only ones subject to mood swings and confusion. Women are the same and yes we are also still adjusting to finally being in a an equitable position. The old rules no longer apply to dating exactly, but some still do, but it's on the individuals dating to sort that out. It's really easy to play the blame game, but in the end both sides are to blame for this quagmire. I've made my share of mistakes, it's called life experiences, the real failure is not learning and moving on. I could easily write off men as shallow narcissists who can't see beyond the exterior and in many cases that does apply, but to say all men are that way would say something more about my own psychology, not theirs. Some women (some of whom I know) are money grubbing expecting men and anyone else they can leach off of to take care of them. Others of us prefer to pay our own way, but are still unsure of what to do with first and second dates? what is the rule exactly these days? I admit I've stumbled, blown off guys in hindsight I truly regret simply because I was too insecure and couldn't figure out why they'd like me so I imagined some wrong and dumped them before they could dump me. Stupid on my part, no doubt, but I am not evil or horrible, just occasionally prone to human errors. I give most guys the benefit of the same doubt. I just got out of a very bad situation and I could hate all men, he did after all try to physically hurt me and other things and I could blame you all, but that would be dumb. What I did learn is just to be more careful about letting people in. Take my time, get to know them for a long period of time before allowing mushy stuff to cloud my brain of normal rational thought.

and as for meeting people, I find focusing on just joining in on things I already like (e.g. joining a hiking group, etc...meetup.com for instance has interesting things) leads to making real connections based on common interests regardless of the dating thing. Friends are good to have, regardless of gender.

great post

OABB
03-03-2011, 03:07 PM
http://menarebetterthanwomen.com

I present to you, Dick, the hero of all men.

alkemical
03-03-2011, 03:11 PM
Its double standards man. Even if a woman starts tearing you down, you're the bigger ass and less of a man if you attack her back. Men cannot tear down women, but women can do and say whatever they want in public and they do. If a man says a damn thing he has to worry about other men and women ganging up on him and he'll look like an assclown.

There are good men and good women out there, but often times they find eachother and what is left are the confused people and the remaining good people. You hear all the time from both sexes that its hard to find a good partner or that all the good ones are gone. I don't see how anyone can meet each other anymore.

the meeting people aspect and this topic came as an offshoot of discussions on narcisissm.

If each side, has the same complaints...why aren't we listening?

vancejohnson82
03-03-2011, 03:23 PM
the meeting people aspect and this topic came as an offshoot of discussions on narcisissm.

If each side, has the same complaints...why aren't we listening?

because most people can't look at themselves and see their own faults...which leads them to believe that they are better than the people they meet

and thats on both ends I believe

Chris
03-03-2011, 03:41 PM
I have a great girlfriend. She is selfless, self-motivated and actually probably does more for me than I do for her. Some of the girls I've dated have been self-involved. Those didn't last and this one is going on two years. These girls do exist but no one is perfect. There are red flags... if a chick dresses like a member of the Hills cast or some other show... she is probably going to suck. Pummel her with your wang until she screams and leave her.

I will say that it is ****ing annoying to have to always initiate with women especially when you're not feeling too hot and you have to be upbeat, surly and flirtatious. Having said that... the less you care the easier it is.

It's pretty easy to be the "not so nice guy"... I would say it's more the "don't really care" guy than it is not being "nice". It's easy to not really care if you get the girl or not in NYC when there are so many fit chicks everywhere. The problem you get with that attitude is when you get into an actual relationship it's the exact opposite of what's expected and it takes a long time to melt through that stuff mentally. I've been pretty used to being tuned out and I've had to work on being more attentive (this was all the result of being the spurned romantic in high school and then flipping to the polar opposite, where I got the girls - worked ever since).

The minute a guy realises women don't have the logical "female" version of their own brains and appreciates their strengths and weaknesses he will stop chasing girls that suck and find a great one. Chasing girls that suck is still fun if all he wants to do is bang bang bang bang.

alkemical
03-03-2011, 03:51 PM
because most people can't look at themselves and see their own faults...which leads them to believe that they are better than the people they meet

and thats on both ends I believe

totally agree. this is where the comment: "women want their faery tales & men want their whores".

Men have their expectations too.

Miss I makes some great points. Why can't peolple get over their bull****, and make the best of it and be happy. Why the need to return the favor of douchebaggery?

gunns
03-03-2011, 04:19 PM
I'm 32 and have given up on finding a "good" woman. One who is willing to work hard, one who doesn't feel entitled, etc.

I just found "other" things to do, and stopped focusing on "Marriage, family, etc".

I could say the same thing about men. The article, to me, sounds like a bunch of excuses for men to behave like little boys while wanting a woman like mommy to cater to them.

Now the one thing I noticed, that we say we want the Jimmy Stewart type, but go for the Charlie Sheen type, that is probably very true. You will find hard working women, strong women, with a Charlie Sheen type. Women want a challenge and what is that challenge? To change the guy. It's one of the worst attributes we have. If you are going to fall in love with a guy....and possibly marry him you should love him the way he is, all of him. But no we "accept the challenge" to change him, mold him to our desire and I don't blame guys for being sick of that.

Both sides have their problems and both sides seem to be looking for perfection and it's never going to happen. Marriage isn't a glorified state. It's constant work. I gave up on it but I know some who have been together for a long time and have great companionship. That's what I'd like now.

extralife
03-03-2011, 04:32 PM
It's two things, which are really one thing.

1. Women have more power and freedom than they have had at any other point, which also means they "get to act more like men" as things that were at one point defined as "masculine" simply as a way of belittling women (like "supporting themselves," for instance) begin to be seen as gender neutral. As a result, men have to become More Like Men, which means they have to start doing stupid **** that is in no way connected to anything, but which will now be defined as "manly" so as to carve out some new ground for them/ourselves. And they have to be men Longer, because if they start getting old then they are even more useless than these new fangled women and that is a psychological problem. So now we have a mythical old man that bangs porn stars while jumping off of cliffs, and yet is down to earth enough to fix his car and dispense advice to his burgeoning businessmanchild son.

2. This samey-ness doesn't only threaten concepts of masculinity and the way men are actually supposed to act, or see themselves as having to act--it also threatens femininity. but not femininity for women (though it probably does that too); no, femininity for men. if women are starting to act "more like men" the necessary corollary is they are starting to act less like women. And so men don't know what to do when the "nice stay at home women" with the smile on her face and the apron around her waist and the kids on her arms doesn't actually exist. Solution? Find women that act like whores, or try to make women act like whores (take a look at your TV, people), and then pretend that's what you want. Of course, that's not actually what you want. So you get mad. Who are you mad at? Yourself--yourself and changing societal constructs. But you don't know that. So you think you are mad at the women. Anger. And then you start to intuit that marriage, as an institution, is normative. People got married so that the men could control the women, and the women could have someone to attach themselves to, without which they would be socially and financially ostracized. if this normative function of marriage is challenged in anyway, it starts to look like a burden. because it is a burden. marriage is hard. people don't want hard things--they want things that easily benefit themselves. if marriage doesn't do that anymore, and if the women we're supposed to marry don't exist anymore, well, **** the whores and **** the children and **** the family lets go pound some brews and bathe in sawdust across the Rugged Terrain of America in our new Chevrolet Trucks.

/thread

Atwater His Ass
03-03-2011, 04:33 PM
People get confused when dealing with the "bad boy" and "nice guy" thing. Women don't necessarily want a "bad boy". What they want is a man with confidence. A lot of guys have a problem with confidence around women, so they resort to being ***** because it's easy, has no emotional commitment, and shows off a false layer of confidence that women can be attracted too.

It takes most men into their 30's before this juvenille behaviour is curbed. Women, probably mid 20's to late 20's. But once both parties get passed this, you can start to find wonderful people to spend your time with.

alkemical
03-03-2011, 04:47 PM
People get confused when dealing with the "bad boy" and "nice guy" thing. Women don't necessarily want a "bad boy". What they want is a man with confidence. A lot of guys have a problem with confidence around women, so they resort to being ***** because it's easy, has no emotional commitment, and shows off a false layer of confidence that women can be attracted too.

It takes most men into their 30's before this juvenille behaviour is curbed. Women, probably mid 20's to late 20's. But once both parties get passed this, you can start to find wonderful people to spend your time with.

I'd say women are late 20's/early 30's too. Men, IMO more towards mid 30's now.

But overall, you make points I can agree with.

Are we just jaded narcissists who only know how to inflict damage? Are we just repeating emotional abuse?

alkemical
03-03-2011, 04:55 PM
The truth is the relationship between men and women is f-ked up by both sides of the equation. Not all men are a-holes or nice guys. Most fall somewhere in between, vascillating between asshats and good guys. Men are moody too, don't know why you all think we are the only ones subject to mood swings and confusion. Women are the same and yes we are also still adjusting to finally being in a an equitable position. The old rules no longer apply to dating exactly, but some still do, but it's on the individuals dating to sort that out. It's really easy to play the blame game, but in the end both sides are to blame for this quagmire. I've made my share of mistakes, it's called life experiences, the real failure is not learning and moving on. I could easily write off men as shallow narcissists who can't see beyond the exterior and in many cases that does apply, but to say all men are that way would say something more about my own psychology, not theirs. Some women (some of whom I know) are money grubbing expecting men and anyone else they can leach off of to take care of them. Others of us prefer to pay our own way, but are still unsure of what to do with first and second dates? what is the rule exactly these days? I admit I've stumbled, blown off guys in hindsight I truly regret simply because I was too insecure and couldn't figure out why they'd like me so I imagined some wrong and dumped them before they could dump me. Stupid on my part, no doubt, but I am not evil or horrible, just occasionally prone to human errors. I give most guys the benefit of the same doubt. I just got out of a very bad situation and I could hate all men, he did after all try to physically hurt me and other things and I could blame you all, but that would be dumb. What I did learn is just to be more careful about letting people in. Take my time, get to know them for a long period of time before allowing mushy stuff to cloud my brain of normal rational thought.

and as for meeting people, I find focusing on just joining in on things I already like (e.g. joining a hiking group, etc...meetup.com for instance has interesting things) leads to making real connections based on common interests regardless of the dating thing. Friends are good to have, regardless of gender.

Miss I, this is a great post.

Part of it is learning how to get out of your own way, learning that getting what you want isn't always good (buyers remorse so to speak).

How do we encourage men and women to get comfortable with roles that have shifted?

I have quite a few female friends, and this topic has really engaged some great discussion. I'd ask for a big group hug...but i'm not in an orgy mood today...lol.

Garcia Bronco
03-03-2011, 05:09 PM
No **** lady of the OP article. There exist women who want their cake and to eat it too.

Everyone has their own self-interests; Including the women you love, women you marry, and the women you give cab fare.

broncolife
03-03-2011, 05:16 PM
Our hands are too rough?

Crushaholic
03-03-2011, 05:17 PM
Our hands are too rough?

It's the sharp knees...definitely the sharp knees...

400HZ
03-03-2011, 05:18 PM
I think it has to do with American society becoming more superficial along with a greater overall sense of entitlement. Everyone expects a trophy.

When I was still in school, I'd go out with friends and try to hook up with the hottest girl at the bar. The problem with that is that the hottest girl in the bar is probably doing the same thing you are. You are both superficial, and superficial relationships don't last because there is always a cuter girl or a cooler guy out there. If you really do convince a girl that you are the coolest guy on the planet, then they become overly possessive. Either way, there's no chance of a long term, meaningful relationship developing. Current American ideals keep you trying, though. And if you enter a professional line of work, you don't have time for much else. If you are a good looking, successful man, then you are perpetually tied to superficial women.

FireFly
03-03-2011, 05:42 PM
I'm about to marry WAY out of my league - I'm a very average guy (28), my fiance (24) is a Dutch model, who cooks, cleans and irons my shirt every day for work.

She like it when I have friends over to play games while she cooks and irons for the next day! She's just finished playing Uncharted 2 and is already half way through AC brotherhood. Now there is a soul mate!

In the bedroom, we have an agreement that if she's ever not in the mood I can either make use of her or she'll take matters into her own hands for me!

I can't believe I got this lucky!! :) :) :)

OABB
03-03-2011, 06:00 PM
I'm about to marry WAY out of my league - I'm a very average guy (28), my fiance (24) is a Dutch model, who cooks, cleans and irons my shirt every day for work.

She like it when I have friends over to play games while she cooks and irons for the next day! She's just finished playing Uncharted 2 and is already half way through AC brotherhood. Now there is a soul mate!

In the bedroom, we have an agreement that if she's ever not in the mood I can either make use of her or she'll take matters into her own hands for me!

I can't believe I got this lucky!! :) :) :)


I think she's a man. Check her birth certificate. Otherwise well done.

McDman
03-03-2011, 06:12 PM
I'm 25 and I'm already jaded about women. I've had a girl who burned me bad and pretty much all of my friends have been cheated on as well.

I've actually talked about it with a woman who is 46 and she thinks it's a generational thing, women in this day and at this age are not going to be faithful. It's not worth having a girlfriend right now.

As much as women complain that men are the cold and emotionless it seems it's usually the man who would do anything for the woman they are with, not the other way around.

If all goes according to plan I'm just going to do a 180 of how I have been my whole life and bang as many girls as I can.

extralife
03-03-2011, 06:21 PM
ladies and gentlemen, my theory 100% in practice

Dr. Broncenstein
03-03-2011, 06:32 PM
Generations of a society that minimizes the role of fathers, if not glorifying the abandonment of fatherhood.

alkemical
03-03-2011, 06:44 PM
I could say the same thing about men. The article, to me, sounds like a bunch of excuses for men to behave like little boys while wanting a woman like mommy to cater to them.

Now the one thing I noticed, that we say we want the Jimmy Stewart type, but go for the Charlie Sheen type, that is probably very true. You will find hard working women, strong women, with a Charlie Sheen type. Women want a challenge and what is that challenge? To change the guy. It's one of the worst attributes we have. If you are going to fall in love with a guy....and possibly marry him you should love him the way he is, all of him. But no we "accept the challenge" to change him, mold him to our desire and I don't blame guys for being sick of that.

Both sides have their problems and both sides seem to be looking for perfection and it's never going to happen. Marriage isn't a glorified state. It's constant work. I gave up on it but I know some who have been together for a long time and have great companionship. That's what I'd like now.

there is a lot of truth in that. many of my chica friends have lazy children as boyfriends. i'm not here to defend douchebaggery from either sex.

Other than that, I think this is sound advice.

Mediator12
03-03-2011, 06:47 PM
I'm about to marry WAY out of my league - I'm a very average guy (28), my fiance (24) is a Dutch model, who cooks, cleans and irons my shirt every day for work.

She like it when I have friends over to play games while she cooks and irons for the next day! She's just finished playing Uncharted 2 and is already half way through AC brotherhood. Now there is a soul mate!

In the bedroom, we have an agreement that if she's ever not in the mood I can either make use of her or she'll take matters into her own hands for me!

I can't believe I got this lucky!! :) :) :)

Foreign women do not count, but nice story anyway :welcome:

Requiem
03-03-2011, 06:51 PM
FireFly, congratulations.

Jason in LA
03-03-2011, 06:53 PM
Funny enough, all the guys who I hung out with in my early twenties who I would consider "womanizers" (sleeping with tons of people) are getting married to nice, respectable women. Not sure what that says about anything



I'd say that causally dating around is the best way to find the right woman for you. A lot of people view a guy who dates around as a womanizer. Well I don't see it that way, not all cases at least. I'm sure there are guys who are just out for one thing all the time. With me, I have an active dating life and might be labeled as a womanizer by some, but the end goal of my dating life is marriage.

I think one problem is that a lot of people hate dating, so they don't do it much. Then once somebody comes along who is good enough, they'll settle. To me that's just a bad way to go about it. Date as much as possible, and some woman will come along who is so great that she'll make you not want to be with all those other chicks. That's the one you marry.

The more options you have, the better your chances of picking somebody right for you.

Jason in LA
03-03-2011, 06:56 PM
Agreed. But to include a person's entire 20s and half of their 30s as pre-adulthood is just ridiculous. I realize everyone is different, but if a 30 year old is doing the same thing for the same reasons they were when they were 18 they wont suddenly become an adult at 35. That person is just immature.

:Broncos:

I agree that including the 20s and early 30s as pre-adulthood is silly. So if a guy hasn't settled down and gotten married, he's not really a grown up yet? That's BS. Getting married doesn't make you grown. Seeing that the institution of marriage is failing, maybe the guy who doesn't do it, or waits until the right time to do it, is really the smart one.

Jason in LA
03-03-2011, 07:09 PM
I really think that women don't want a "nice guy". They say they do, but they really don't.

This is extremely true. They say they want one thing, but they go for another thing.

OABB
03-03-2011, 07:15 PM
Finding a good woman is hard. I did it. I really did. But it is what I wanted more than anything. I focused on it more than a career. My wife is awesome. She really is. I had to make a few compromises and she can be a real ****. But when it counts she is the best person in the world.

Dating is a waste of time. I was celibate for two years before I found her. You almost hav to hav magical thinking to get it done. And patience. I scored and everyday is an affirmation that my priorities were right.

I love my wife. Hole heartedly. She is a saint. My advice is hold out and stick it out and keep your head up. She is out there.

Jason in LA
03-03-2011, 07:23 PM
I totally disagree with the "men want their whores" thing.

Most of the girls I end up meeting give me that "whore" type vibe and I avoid them like the plague. Been there, done that. It's easy game but the end result is predictable and lame. Kinda like the difference between deep sea fishing and deep sea trolling. On the one hand you can sit in one spot and catch a fish every 5 minutes but you're getting bluefish and crap. With the trolling you might get one bite in three hours but its gonna be something big

I also disagree with the point that men want a whore. I'd say those types of chicks are good for a one night stand or a good time every now and then, but I wouldn't make a chick like that my girl.

There is a saying that a woman should be a lady in the streets but a freak in the sheets. That's what I go for. A woman who can be classy in public, but it's on when we're alone.

Jason in LA
03-03-2011, 07:25 PM
if you're looking for women with values and not whores, Happy Hours are a great places to meet women.

Go with a buddy from work, and its easy to start a convo with a few women. Right off the bat, you have something in common: you both work and you both drink (or hang out at bars)

I'd say join social organizations. Ones that educated women are members of. There's where I meet the bulk of the women that I date.

Jason in LA
03-03-2011, 07:32 PM
****ing dammit people.

THIS CONVERSATION ISN'T ABOUT ME, BUT ABOUT THE GENDER ROLES IN OUR CULTURE.

WHY DO WOMEN b**** ABOUT IMMATURE MEN.

WHY DO MEN NOT WANT TO DEAL WITH WOMEN'S ****.

We need a dialogue.

I'd say that people don't respect each others differences. If it didn't work out there is no need to talk trash about the person, just move on to somebody else.

I don't have anything bad to say about any woman that I use date, because I moved on. But I wouldn't be surprised if they had bad stuff to say about me. Not that I was bad to them, that's just how people are when things end.

After it ends people act like everybody from the opposite sex is like that. Like, a guy didn't treat a woman right, so now all guys are dogs? A woman treated a man like crap, so now all women are bitches? That's just dumb.

And I find it really funny when people sit on their couch on a Friday or Saturday night and then complain that they can't find somebody. And if you had a bad date, you should have planned it better.

RhymesayersDU
03-03-2011, 07:35 PM
****ing dammit people.

THIS CONVERSATION ISN'T ABOUT ME, BUT ABOUT THE GENDER ROLES IN OUR CULTURE.

WHY DO WOMEN b**** ABOUT IMMATURE MEN.

WHY DO MEN NOT WANT TO DEAL WITH WOMEN'S ****.

We need a dialogue.

If you're having troubles meeting women, might I recommended a library or a lecture at your local university?

You'll find somebody, don't give up.

Blueflame
03-03-2011, 07:42 PM
LOL, it would be good if I didn't have a dog that I had to go home and take care of.

Here's another part of the equation:

I hear so many women b**** about men coming up and talking to them at a "bar", "gym", etc etc.

They feel assaulted to be approached. How does this change, or where does this come from.

I don't mind at all if a man comes up and talks to me. But if he's flagrantly "hitting on me" (as opposed to just casual conversation) then I do become "guarded". Because I'm married (unavailable) and don't want to a) waste his time or mine... or b) give the wrong impression. I don't feel "assaulted" or "offended" by being approached though.

Mediator12
03-03-2011, 09:08 PM
This is a great topic for discussion BTW, thanks Al!

Where to start here. This generation has no ties to their families and is the first to come from a generation of divorcees showing them the way. The family is a dying american icon for many reasons, all but replaced with rugged individualism. The American dream no longer needs anyone, they only need to be happy themsleves. Couple that with a whole lot of free inexpensive entertainment (Xbox and porn for men in the article) and priorities have changed for this generation. The result is people have no idea what real relationships are anymore, especially the social media generation.

Relationships are work and that is a major issue for both genders trying to get theirs. It gets in the way of their personal freedoms and goals. That does not even enter having children together. It all starts with understanding how hard it is to make things work and being willing to sacrifice for the good of the other and the whole. It takes having both parents at home fulfilling their roles. Having fathers interested in their kids and not living through them or using them as weapons against their Ex-wives.

The problem is one of expectations. Everyone has to look out for themselves, however we also are drawn to relationships. The biggest thing with this generation is that the focus has severely shifted to looking after themselves and not looking out for each other. It is much harder to be a good friend today, because people will walk all over you. They think that it is OK to do it too! They think they need to be in control of themselves and their surroundings. The simple selfish nature of human beings is destroying the inherant need for relationship in our society. And, it is obviously confusing the hell out of a lot of people.

The next question should be: What do women really want and what do men really want? The problem here is too much generalization. Gender has been affected by the selfish nature and equal opportunities. Men need to know they have what it takes, women need to know they are wanted and beautiful. That plays out very different based on life experience. Women who are attracted to the bad guy persona have a totally different set of circumstances than women who really desire Stable men. They are different. Men who want whores in the bedroom and mothers for their kids are different.

Everyone is unique, but we do not want to be bothered with uniqueness, it takes to much energy to deal with ;D We want 10 simple steps to a better man. We want 6 questions that will make her a whore in bed! We want the easy button! Life is easier than it ever has been and people have so many more options than ever before. We want perfect, and perfect does not exist! It especially does not exist in relationships.

The problem remains the trend to rugged individualism over the American family. The Family takes a lot of work. The individual can bail at any time. Is it any wonder that American culture is at a crossroads with the economy, politics, and now relationships? No. We have forsaken that which has made us strong for generations. We are Americans. However, the American Family is slowly becoming a myth at the expense of rugged individualism.

The thing is we are unique and we are very much alike as well. We are free, because great people sacrificed their lives for our freedom. Now, what you choose to do with that freedom is your gift to your children. If we ever get over ourselves and find someone to have children with that is. It is not about you. It is not about you. Stop buying the lies and get a grip on that. We were designed to be in relationships, yet we struggle mightily to figure out the opposite sex. It is not a mystery. We work better in relationship than without it! Stop wanting perfect and deal with the fact that a relationship is not perfect. No one is perfect. However, we expect perfection in a mate or girl/boyfriend. Have a little grace and realize you screw up every day too. Embrace the opportunity to know someone and not use it for your own personal gain. Relationships are work, but well worth the effort.

Personally, I agree with cmhargrove that it is a matter of faith to me. I have faith in my wife, even when she lets me down. I also have faith that when I let her down, she will stick by me. And, I have faith in God who has never let me down. I screw up a lot, but I have people who have my back even when I do.

epicSocialism4tw
03-03-2011, 09:41 PM
Alot of good stuff that everyone should read

People have been influenced by peer pressure and by media to believe that they should be seeking relationships to have sex. What happens when two people are attracted on TV or in a movie? Theyre having sex within 15 minutes. People use sex to sell everything from soap to hamburgers. There is literally a generation of popular women who have become popular because they released sex tapes on the internet. People are handing out condoms at school. Kids are sending pictures of themselves nude to each other. Kids are posting nude pictures of themselves on the net. Porn is at the fingertips of everyone in the country at all times. People are oversexed to the extreme, and it begins at a younger age than it ever has. The volume of sexual influence is mind boggling.

This has objectified women and men both. It has placed them in unnatural roles with unrealistic expectations. All women dont have airbrushed thighs. All men dont drive BMW's.

It isnt any wonder that in this oversexed environment, plastic surgery has become commonplace.

Unless a person has some rare and outstanding parents, they arent taught to navigate the confusing waters of our oversexed society.

So when two people get together nowadays, they are having sex within the first handful of dates. They barely know each others minds before they are having sex. Sex confuses people. Its like a veil that allows people to ignore incapatabilities and problems. People just have not been taught to be responsible with their useage of sex. They think that its a normal part of every serious relationship of theirs. It should come as no surprise that people have short-lived relationships when they have never been taught to develop them as well-pracitced romantic friendships before they become sexual.

Archer81
03-03-2011, 09:48 PM
The problem remains the trend to rugged individualism over the American family. The Family takes a lot of work. The individual can bail at any time. Is it any wonder that American culture is at a crossroads with the economy, politics, and now relationships? No. We have forsaken that which has made us strong for generations. We are Americans. However, the American Family is slowly becoming a myth at the expense of rugged individualism.


Rugged individualism is a result of a solid family life. A child is a product of the values and morals of their mother. Tocqueville said "There are Europeans who confuse the various characteristics of the sexes and would make men and women beings not only equal but alike. To both, they attribute the same functions equally, impose on them the same duties and grant them the same rights. They would involve them both in everything – work, pleasure, business. It is easy to see that, in this ambition to make the one sex equal to the other, both are demeaned and that, from the crude mixing of nature’s works, will emerge weak men and immodest women".

If our society is changing, it is because our women are changing. It effects how our boys and girls are brought up and see the world. In a rush to declare men and women equal in every way, we overlook the biologically obvious...men and women are not equal. But it is incorrect to say this. Implying men and women are not equal is taken as a slam for the female sex as not being up to the standards of men. So the rules that generally govern how men and women interact in the US socially. Miss I nailed it in her post. A woman is just as capable of paying for a first or second date, but how do they broach the subject without possibly offending the dude they are taking out? It ends up killing potential relationships before they get started becauase of ill-defined rules of how men and women should interact.

And before anyone says what do you know, you're a homo...it is not easier to date the same sex. The goals are the same, the insecurities are the same, the planning is the same and any rejection hurts the same. Compatibility is not gender specific.

:Broncos:

extralife
03-03-2011, 10:33 PM
so you are saying all of our problems are because we don't recognize that men can beat women in arm wrestling competitions

ok

Que
03-03-2011, 10:45 PM
Most men are stunted beings wholly incapable of complex relationships beyond eat, drink and f*** (not necessarily in that order). Most women are flawed nut jobs permanently cross wired by every relationship they've ever had dating back to their first barbie doll.

Pretty much like it has always been since the dawn of humanity. Move along now. Nothing to see here...

epicSocialism4tw
03-03-2011, 10:47 PM
Most men are stunted beings wholly incapable of complex relationships beyond eat, drink and **** (not necessarily in that order). Most women are flawed nut jobs permanently cross wired by every relationship they've ever had dating back to their first barbie doll.

Pretty much like it has always been since the dawn of humanity. Move along now. Nothing to see here...

Ha!

BroncoBuff
03-03-2011, 10:55 PM
I'd like some feedback from you ladies on the mane as well:

NEW YORK – Why Are Men So Angry?Men in their twenties and thirties are fed up with women, but author Kay Hymowitz says you can’t blame them when women are demanding equality except when it comes to romance.

Is this what Susan Faludi famously called the backlash?


Susan Faludi is a seriously thought-provoking and impressive intellect. But she's also a major pain in the ass.

It is what it is. Any society built on democracy and universal equality means doors will open for women. But men are hard-wired to hunt-gather-provide for them, so when these functions are extended to women, some of us naturally feel less useful.

Here's a thought ... Muslim men are notoriously strict in repressing women and their rights. So if you want that too, my question is: Why are you soft on terror?

extralife
03-03-2011, 11:33 PM
But men are hard-wired to hunt-gather-provide for them

there is nothing that suggests this

footstepsfrom#27
03-03-2011, 11:48 PM
I quit reading that whinny ass **** halfway through. Fact is, men cause most of the problems in the world, from crime to war, we're the one's ****ing up this planet and our societies, not women. We're the ones who abandon familes and beat women and children, etc...and I find most of the men I meet under 40 to be a pure waste of time, probably because alot of them had absentee fathers or dads who were jerks so they never learned. They're not really serious about life, and on this board a lot of these dudes remind me of overgrown adolescents. Men stopped being leaders and standing up for what is right with the WWII generation in many (not all) cases. Women merely respond to our lead, or lack of it. I'm incredibly fortunate because I somehow stumbled onto marrying an incredible woman who hasn't yet figured out that she's to good for me. ;D I was in the grocery store tonight with her and some dude who knows me from when we worked together a few years ago was in there and he saw us and he said, "Damn what did you say to get her?" So I told the guy I didn't say anything but that I just like to treat her right. He looked at me like he had no idea what I was talking about.

FireFly
03-04-2011, 03:59 AM
FireFly, congratulations.

Thanks! I still can't believe it myself!

Foreign women do not count, but nice story anyway :welcome:

ROFL!

I used to agree

Meck77
03-04-2011, 04:19 AM
[QUOTE Why Are Men So Angry?[/QUOTE]

I would say the answer isn't even gender specific. A calm mind is a happy mind.

:peace:

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/1851/babymeditation.jpg (http://img339.imageshack.us/i/babymeditation.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

gunns
03-04-2011, 05:49 AM
This is a great topic for discussion BTW, thanks Al!

Where to start here. This generation has no ties to their families and is the first to come from a generation of divorcees showing them the way. The family is a dying american icon for many reasons, all but replaced with rugged individualism. The American dream no longer needs anyone, they only need to be happy themsleves. Couple that with a whole lot of free inexpensive entertainment (Xbox and porn for men in the article) and priorities have changed for this generation. The result is people have no idea what real relationships are anymore, especially the social media generation.

Relationships are work and that is a major issue for both genders trying to get theirs. It gets in the way of their personal freedoms and goals. That does not even enter having children together. It all starts with understanding how hard it is to make things work and being willing to sacrifice for the good of the other and the whole. It takes having both parents at home fulfilling their roles. Having fathers interested in their kids and not living through them or using them as weapons against their Ex-wives.

The problem is one of expectations. Everyone has to look out for themselves, however we also are drawn to relationships. The biggest thing with this generation is that the focus has severely shifted to looking after themselves and not looking out for each other. It is much harder to be a good friend today, because people will walk all over you. They think that it is OK to do it too! They think they need to be in control of themselves and their surroundings. The simple selfish nature of human beings is destroying the inherant need for relationship in our society. And, it is obviously confusing the hell out of a lot of people.

The next question should be: What do women really want and what do men really want? The problem here is too much generalization. Gender has been affected by the selfish nature and equal opportunities. Men need to know they have what it takes, women need to know they are wanted and beautiful. That plays out very different based on life experience. Women who are attracted to the bad guy persona have a totally different set of circumstances than women who really desire Stable men. They are different. Men who want whores in the bedroom and mothers for their kids are different.

Everyone is unique, but we do not want to be bothered with uniqueness, it takes to much energy to deal with ;D We want 10 simple steps to a better man. We want 6 questions that will make her a whore in bed! We want the easy button! Life is easier than it ever has been and people have so many more options than ever before. We want perfect, and perfect does not exist! It especially does not exist in relationships.

The problem remains the trend to rugged individualism over the American family. The Family takes a lot of work. The individual can bail at any time. Is it any wonder that American culture is at a crossroads with the economy, politics, and now relationships? No. We have forsaken that which has made us strong for generations. We are Americans. However, the American Family is slowly becoming a myth at the expense of rugged individualism.

The thing is we are unique and we are very much alike as well. We are free, because great people sacrificed their lives for our freedom. Now, what you choose to do with that freedom is your gift to your children. If we ever get over ourselves and find someone to have children with that is. It is not about you. It is not about you. Stop buying the lies and get a grip on that. We were designed to be in relationships, yet we struggle mightily to figure out the opposite sex. It is not a mystery. We work better in relationship than without it! Stop wanting perfect and deal with the fact that a relationship is not perfect. No one is perfect. However, we expect perfection in a mate or girl/boyfriend. Have a little grace and realize you screw up every day too. Embrace the opportunity to know someone and not use it for your own personal gain. Relationships are work, but well worth the effort.

Personally, I agree with cmhargrove that it is a matter of faith to me. I have faith in my wife, even when she lets me down. I also have faith that when I let her down, she will stick by me. And, I have faith in God who has never let me down. I screw up a lot, but I have people who have my back even when I do.

This nails it. I know when my daughter first got married whenever they had a fight, she wanted out of the marriage. Fortunately she learned it wasn't the end of the world and began to look at her part in the fight....and they learned communication which led to less fights She also began to realize she was one of the fortunate ones and got a gem. Anything worth having is worth working hard to get. And in a relationship it is rarely one side's fault. It takes two to tango.

TonyR
03-04-2011, 05:51 AM
Here's why we're so angry:


Fewer teens and young adults are having sex, a government survey shows, and theories abound for why they're doing it less.

Experts say this generation may be more cautious than their predecessors, more aware of sexually spread diseases. Or perhaps emphasis on abstinence in the past decade has had some influence.

Or maybe they're just too busy.

"It's not even on my radar," said 17-year-old Abbey King of Hinsdale, Ill., a competitive swimmer who starts her day at 5 a.m. and falls into bed at 10:30 p.m. after swimming, school, weight lifting, running, more swimming, homework and a volunteer gig working with service dogs for the disabled.

The study, released Thursday, is based on interviews of about 5,300 young people, ages 15 to 24. It shows the proportion in that age group who said they'd never had oral, vaginal or anal sex rose in the past decade from 22 percent to about 28 percent.

The findings are sure to surprise some parents who see skin and lust in the media and worry that sex is rampant.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/wireStory?id=13047297

eddie mac
03-04-2011, 05:57 AM
When you support the Denver Broncos and West Ham United there's 2 very good reasons for my current anger management classes.

alkemical
03-04-2011, 06:08 AM
Here's why we're so angry:



http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/wireStory?id=13047297

Do you think all those pressures, cause kids to grow up fast in some regards, but are "slowed" in others?

alkemical
03-04-2011, 06:10 AM
I don't mind at all if a man comes up and talks to me. But if he's flagrantly "hitting on me" (as opposed to just casual conversation) then I do become "guarded". Because I'm married (unavailable) and don't want to a) waste his time or mine... or b) give the wrong impression. I don't feel "assaulted" or "offended" by being approached though.

Then you don't count. LOL!

:)

alkemical
03-04-2011, 06:13 AM
It's two things, which are really one thing.

1. Women have more power and freedom than they have had at any other point, which also means they "get to act more like men" as things that were at one point defined as "masculine" simply as a way of belittling women (like "supporting themselves," for instance) begin to be seen as gender neutral. As a result, men have to become More Like Men, which means they have to start doing stupid **** that is in no way connected to anything, but which will now be defined as "manly" so as to carve out some new ground for them/ourselves. And they have to be men Longer, because if they start getting old then they are even more useless than these new fangled women and that is a psychological problem. So now we have a mythical old man that bangs porn stars while jumping off of cliffs, and yet is down to earth enough to fix his car and dispense advice to his burgeoning businessmanchild son.

2. This samey-ness doesn't only threaten concepts of masculinity and the way men are actually supposed to act, or see themselves as having to act--it also threatens femininity. but not femininity for women (though it probably does that too); no, femininity for men. if women are starting to act "more like men" the necessary corollary is they are starting to act less like women. And so men don't know what to do when the "nice stay at home women" with the smile on her face and the apron around her waist and the kids on her arms doesn't actually exist. Solution? Find women that act like whores, or try to make women act like whores (take a look at your TV, people), and then pretend that's what you want. Of course, that's not actually what you want. So you get mad. Who are you mad at? Yourself--yourself and changing societal constructs. But you don't know that. So you think you are mad at the women. Anger. And then you start to intuit that marriage, as an institution, is normative. People got married so that the men could control the women, and the women could have someone to attach themselves to, without which they would be socially and financially ostracized. if this normative function of marriage is challenged in anyway, it starts to look like a burden. because it is a burden. marriage is hard. people don't want hard things--they want things that easily benefit themselves. if marriage doesn't do that anymore, and if the women we're supposed to marry don't exist anymore, well, **** the whores and **** the children and **** the family lets go pound some brews and bathe in sawdust across the Rugged Terrain of America in our new Chevrolet Trucks.

/thread


I think this covers a good bit of the jaded POV that seems to have really crept up in the dating world.

Woman dates loser guys, gets used - her "ideal" doesn't result in reality. She becomes jaded, uses some guys - etc. One of those guys she uses isn't a bad guy - he's not perfect - and then he becomes jaded.

This is repeating a cycle of abuse.

How do we stop it, or change it?

I personally am totally fine with a woman who makes more than me.

alkemical
03-04-2011, 06:17 AM
I think it has to do with American society becoming more superficial along with a greater overall sense of entitlement. Everyone expects a trophy.

When I was still in school, I'd go out with friends and try to hook up with the hottest girl at the bar. The problem with that is that the hottest girl in the bar is probably doing the same thing you are. You are both superficial, and superficial relationships don't last because there is always a cuter girl or a cooler guy out there. If you really do convince a girl that you are the coolest guy on the planet, then they become overly possessive. Either way, there's no chance of a long term, meaningful relationship developing. Current American ideals keep you trying, though. And if you enter a professional line of work, you don't have time for much else. If you are a good looking, successful man, then you are perpetually tied to superficial women.

I have a thread in the WRP forum: Narcissism is the original sin (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=97131)


That thread is trying to discuss the narcissistic nature of the American culture at this point in time.

alkemical
03-04-2011, 06:23 AM
This is a great topic for discussion BTW, thanks Al!

Where to start here. This generation has no ties to their families and is the first to come from a generation of divorcees showing them the way. The family is a dying american icon for many reasons, all but replaced with rugged individualism. The American dream no longer needs anyone, they only need to be happy themsleves. Couple that with a whole lot of free inexpensive entertainment (Xbox and porn for men in the article) and priorities have changed for this generation. The result is people have no idea what real relationships are anymore, especially the social media generation.

Relationships are work and that is a major issue for both genders trying to get theirs. It gets in the way of their personal freedoms and goals. That does not even enter having children together. It all starts with understanding how hard it is to make things work and being willing to sacrifice for the good of the other and the whole. It takes having both parents at home fulfilling their roles. Having fathers interested in their kids and not living through them or using them as weapons against their Ex-wives.

The problem is one of expectations. Everyone has to look out for themselves, however we also are drawn to relationships. The biggest thing with this generation is that the focus has severely shifted to looking after themselves and not looking out for each other. It is much harder to be a good friend today, because people will walk all over you. They think that it is OK to do it too! They think they need to be in control of themselves and their surroundings. The simple selfish nature of human beings is destroying the inherant need for relationship in our society. And, it is obviously confusing the hell out of a lot of people.

The next question should be: What do women really want and what do men really want? The problem here is too much generalization. Gender has been affected by the selfish nature and equal opportunities. Men need to know they have what it takes, women need to know they are wanted and beautiful. That plays out very different based on life experience. Women who are attracted to the bad guy persona have a totally different set of circumstances than women who really desire Stable men. They are different. Men who want whores in the bedroom and mothers for their kids are different.

Everyone is unique, but we do not want to be bothered with uniqueness, it takes to much energy to deal with ;D We want 10 simple steps to a better man. We want 6 questions that will make her a whore in bed! We want the easy button! Life is easier than it ever has been and people have so many more options than ever before. We want perfect, and perfect does not exist! It especially does not exist in relationships.

The problem remains the trend to rugged individualism over the American family. The Family takes a lot of work. The individual can bail at any time. Is it any wonder that American culture is at a crossroads with the economy, politics, and now relationships? No. We have forsaken that which has made us strong for generations. We are Americans. However, the American Family is slowly becoming a myth at the expense of rugged individualism.

The thing is we are unique and we are very much alike as well. We are free, because great people sacrificed their lives for our freedom. Now, what you choose to do with that freedom is your gift to your children. If we ever get over ourselves and find someone to have children with that is. It is not about you. It is not about you. Stop buying the lies and get a grip on that. We were designed to be in relationships, yet we struggle mightily to figure out the opposite sex. It is not a mystery. We work better in relationship than without it! Stop wanting perfect and deal with the fact that a relationship is not perfect. No one is perfect. However, we expect perfection in a mate or girl/boyfriend. Have a little grace and realize you screw up every day too. Embrace the opportunity to know someone and not use it for your own personal gain. Relationships are work, but well worth the effort.

Personally, I agree with cmhargrove that it is a matter of faith to me. I have faith in my wife, even when she lets me down. I also have faith that when I let her down, she will stick by me. And, I have faith in God who has never let me down. I screw up a lot, but I have people who have my back even when I do.


Check out the narcissism thread in the WRP forum. There's a link on this page for it.

I do agree with some of your points. I know in dealing with my project on narcissism, i realized that "I need YOU" (not YOU literally) - but I need YOU. Instead of saying: "X offers me nothing", why doing I offer SOMETHING.

Sharing, conversation. Simple little things.

I just see a lot of the "Women want faery tales, and men want whores" in our culture.

Is it an "absolute truth for everybody" - no. but it's common enough to be relate able.

Chris
03-04-2011, 06:28 AM
I'm about to marry WAY out of my league - I'm a very average guy (28), my fiance (24) is a Dutch model, who cooks, cleans and irons my shirt every day for work.

She like it when I have friends over to play games while she cooks and irons for the next day! She's just finished playing Uncharted 2 and is already half way through AC brotherhood. Now there is a soul mate!

In the bedroom, we have an agreement that if she's ever not in the mood I can either make use of her or she'll take matters into her own hands for me!

I can't believe I got this lucky!! :) :) :)

Does she have a sister? I can speak German which is kind of lik a sober version of Dutch.

Doetzen Kroes is my ideal woman.

alkemical
03-04-2011, 06:31 AM
I also want to thank everyone for making this an enjoyable conversation and discussion.

I appreciate this very much.

Requiem
03-04-2011, 06:41 AM
I haven't been in a serious relationship since about 2007/8 when my ex and I called it quits after 4 years together. I don't think I've ever been happier.

After the break-up, I told myself I was going to take off as much time as possible to focus on myself, graduating university and taking a big step into adulthood. Outside a few setbacks (kidney disease and unemployment for a while, but both those have improved) everything has gone really great for me.

I've never been the kind of guy to actively pursue women and ask them for a date, I prefer being chased. Every year of college I seemed to have one girl who chased me around, but things never really worked out. One of the girls told me she had broken up with her boyfriend prior to us having our "thing" -- and when I found out that wasn't the case and she was more or less fooling around, I cut it off.

The next girl who pursued me was in-between boyfriends and had a lot of uncertainty about her. She had no idea who she was or what she was going to do after school. No true drive, no sense of direction. She was a spoiled rotten brat who not once in her life had to ever take personal responsibility for anything. I see this all the time from people who are coddled by their parents and are never exposed to reality or have to learn things the hard way. Deep down, I couldn't respect that she felt she was entitled to everything and no matter how hard I'd try to compromise, she wasn't willing to. I haven't talked to her since January of 2009. Thank God.

In my final year of university, I became really close friends with a classmate of mine who was a fellow student in one of my major fields, anthropology. We hung out a lot and had a lot of fun. She was going through some hardships with her boyfriend and she always liked spending time with me or talking with me because I was willing to consult or give her advice on things. She even baked me chocolate chip cookies, gave them to me in class with a note expressing her feelings that had a nice piff joint in it. I've had friends do nice things for me, but that seemed a little more than a "friend thing" to me.

Things started getting weird when she would send me random messages (texts) about how much she likes me and how thankful she was for my friendship. On numerous occasions, she hinted at having a relationship with me, but I told her that I wasn't going to get between her and her boyfriend, and if she wanted to switch ships, that was all on her and I wouldn't have any influence over it.

Needless to say, she took the agnostic approach to a pending relationship. **** or get off the pot, essentially was my attitude. I told her I wouldn't tolerate her saying the things she did to me (leading me on) while she still had a boyfriend because of the guilt and stress it brought upon me. It wasn't fair to me, her or her boyfriend -- and I still don't think he knows to this day what she was doing.

I think the thing that killed the potential of a relationship is when she asked me to do some dream interpretation for her (dream theory, dream analysis, etc. -- is one of the things I loved researching and reading about, and I'm currently working on a project/book about this) and I ended up giving her some chilling information.

Long story short, the themes of her dreams were very telling and I was dead certain that she was going to lose a family member within a very short period of time. I told this to her as lightly as I could, and asked her to brace herself for what was likely to come. I didn't like telling her what I did, but it was the honest thing to do.

Several days after I told her this, she lost her brother in a tragic airplane crash.

I think I spooked her with that, though we always sat by each other in our classes and conversed. We even went to graduation together, despite the craziness. I haven't seen her in person since then, and I we live in the same place. I've distanced myself from her a bit because I don't want to be led on and teased again like I was from her.

I don't know what it is, but for some reason I attract the fruit loops. My guess is that instead of being pursued, I should start doing the prowling. However, my pep and swagger was kinda stolen from me after all these bad runs of luck with the ladies, but I know that somewhere down the road -- something will definitely happen.

Pursuing a relationship (a serious one) right now is not a high priority in my life. Call it rugged individualism or whatnot, I just call it the most sensible and logical thing for me to do right now at this point in my life.

I'm 23 years old, I'm working full-time getting acclimated to my first gig after university and I have a lot of personal projects (writing and music) going on. I'm an extremely busy person. I can honestly say I don't have enough in me right now to give a woman a fair shake.

Relationships take time and a lot of effort, and what I don't lack in effort, I lack in time. I don't like to force the issue, I like to let things come naturally. If something came along that was worth it, I'd highly consider it -- but right now I have a lot on my plate.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty picky with my standards, though I do not think they are unreasonable.

A don't like painting a broad brush on people, but I can't stand dumb girls. Not into the girls who watch American Idol, Jersey Shore and are 100% suckers to material culture and take the media as gospel hookline and sinker. Not into girls who lack intellect, drive and a will to better themselves. Not into the girls who would rather text than meet up in person. This seems to account for a lot of people in my age group today, especially the social media generation.

A lot of dumb **** is going on these days and I just can't stand it. I'm an extremely diverse person with a lot of interests and a lot of things to say. I can't be interested in someone who I can't relate to. I'm a hard person to keep up with. . .

Deep down, I think I'm pretty old-fashioned and that's how I see relationships.

My parents got divorced when I was young, my dad wasn't around as much as he should have been [and as of now, isn't in my life at all -- not my choice, I try and call him every other week but he doesn't answer] so I've always had a traditionalist outlook on things because I was raised by a single mom and my grandparents, whom I'm very close to.

My grandparents have 8 kids together and have been married over 50 years. They have had their fair share of ups and downs, but no matter how hard things got, they stuck together and didn't quit because that is what true love is all about. Willing to go that extra mile with that special someone even if it is going to be tough.

People my age these days want instant gratification for everything. They aren't willing to work for themselves on a personal level, so how in the Hell could they ever try and make it work for/with another person?

I have no idea.

In the end, right now I'm focusing on me -- making sure I am stable in all parts of my life before I make any serious relationship decisions or commitments. So far it is seems to be working. I'm 23, that special someone will come. :)

I don't sweat the small stuff.

I don't know if any of this even relates to the thread at all. I just felt like venting and letting out some of my mind.

crawdad
03-04-2011, 06:57 AM
Clavi, you have some great thoughts and this is a great discussion. I didn't really read some of the more lengthy posts but all points are well taken.

Stop looking for love. It will find you. Get involved in your community. Volunteer for local organizations, coach kids soccer (there are alot of single soccer moms) or baseball. Surround yourself with firends from both sexes and eventually the right mate will cross your path.

"The ocean is vast and its fish are abundant"
-Woody Allen

alkemical
03-04-2011, 06:59 AM
Clavi, you have some great thoughts and this is a great discussion. I didn't really read some of the more lengthy posts but all points are well taken.

Stop looking for love. It will find you. Get involved in your community. Volunteer for local organizations, coach kids soccer (there are alot of single soccer moms) or baseball. Surround yourself with firends from both sexes and eventually the right mate will cross your path.

"The ocean is vast and its fish are abundant"
-Woody Allen

Again, this isn't "for" me. I'm too busy! (Starting a local CSA for B2b, starting a local currency, and balancing time between a magazine and a book) -

You can't go to a soccer field or baseball field and coach if you don't have kids. You are a child molester if you are a single guy and have any interaction with kids. Sorry man, it's the state of our culture.

Requiem
03-04-2011, 06:59 AM
Good advice Crawdad.

crawdad
03-04-2011, 07:29 AM
Again, this isn't "for" me. I'm too busy! (Starting a local CSA for B2b, starting a local currency, and balancing time between a magazine and a book) -

You can't go to a soccer field or baseball field and coach if you don't have kids. You are a child molester if you are a single guy and have any interaction with kids. Sorry man, it's the state of our culture.

Totally untrue! When I lived in Denver back in the 70's I was alone and volunteered at the Y to coach soccer. I didn't know crap about soccer but I studied and at 5-8 years old they can hardly run the length of the field. I met alot of people and some of them are still friends today

Take some time for yourself. You will need it as you grow older.

alkemical
03-04-2011, 07:33 AM
Totally untrue! When I lived in Denver back in the 70's I was alone and volunteered at the Y to coach soccer. I didn't know crap about soccer but I studied and at 5-8 years old they can hardly run the length of the field. I met alot of people and some of them are still friends today

Take some time for yourself. You will need it as you grow older.

That was the '70s. If you are a single now now at any kids event...

you are pedobear.

bronco militia
03-04-2011, 07:37 AM
That was the '70s. If you are a single now now at any kids event...

you are pedobear.

some parents will have suspicion's, but the organization you work for is going to require you go through a back ground check before you get near the kids. Park and rec, boy scouts, club sports, YMCA etc....

alkemical
03-04-2011, 07:40 AM
some parents will have suspicion's, but the organization you work for is going to require you go through a back ground check before you get near the kids. Park and rec, boy scouts, club sports, YMCA etc....

Doesn't matter! You might as well have "Free Candy" tattoos on my head.

crawdad
03-04-2011, 07:43 AM
Nah, I don't believe that for a minute. It all depends on how you carry yourself and come off to the parents.

Remember, there are alot of single moms out there and that is where you do the flirting.

alkemical
03-04-2011, 07:44 AM
Nah, I don't believe that for a minute. It all depends on how you carry yourself and come off to the parents.

Remember, there are alot of single moms out there and that is where you do the flirting.

Times have changed man, times have changed.

crawdad
03-04-2011, 07:49 AM
I hear you man. I think that you are still thinking way out there. Voluterr for other things that will give you more of a social alternative. I work golf tournaments, triathalons, bike races, special olympics and have created a social network of many friends that are not necessarily in my normal social circle.

Tombstone RJ
03-04-2011, 07:53 AM
I'd like some feedback from you ladies on the mane as well:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/20110228/ts_dailybeast/12649_whyaremenangrymanningupauthorkayhymowitzexpl ains

NEW YORK – Why Are Men So Angry?Men in their twenties and thirties are fed up with women, but author Kay Hymowitz says you can’t blame them when women are demanding equality except when it comes to romance.

About a week ago, The Wall Street Journal published an excerpt of my new book, which argued that the new stage I call pre-adulthood—the twenties and early thirties—was not bringing out the best in single young men. Some men didn’t like it. As in, “cancel-my-subscription-the-writer-should-contract-such-a-bad-case-of-carpel-tunnel-syndrome-she-never-writes-again” didn’t like it.

But a lot of the responses unwittingly proved my point—and another one: Men are really, really angry. Consider: “We’re not STUCK in pre-adulthood, we choose it because there aren’t any desirable American women. They’ve been bred to abuse men.” This fairly typical response that appeared at the Seattle Post Intelligencer website: “Sorry ladies. In the age of PlayStation 3s, 24-hours-a-day sports channels, and free Internet porn, you are now obsolete. All that nagging, whining, and stealing our hard earned cash have finally caught up to you."

Shocked? I wasn t. During the last few years researching this age group, I’ve stumbled onto a powerful underground current of male bitterness that has nothing to do with outsourcing, the Mancession, or any of the other issues we usually associate with contemporary male discontent. No, this is bitterness from guys who find the young women they might have hoped to hang out with entitled, dishonest, self-involved, slutty, manipulative, shallow, controlling—and did I mention gold-digging?

Check out the websites like names like MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way), Nomarriage.com, or EternalBachelor.com (“Give Modern Women the Husband They Deserve. None.”). Or read popular bloggers like the pseudonymous Roissy, a ferociously caustic dissector of female “sluttiness” and “**** tests” (attempts to manipulate men). There are dozens upon dozens of gurus and counselors who publish posts like “42 Things Wrong With American Women” while chat forums ruminate over how “American Women Suck.”

Women may want equality at the conference table and treadmill. But when it comes to sex and dating, they aren’t so sure.

So, is this what Susan Faludi famously called the backlash? Is it immaturity, as my own book seems to suggest? Is it the Internet as an escape valve for decades of pent-up rebellion against political correctness? Or, is it just good, old-fashioned misogyny?

A bit of all of the above, probably. But there’s another reason for these rants, one that is far less understood. Let’s call it gender bait and switch. Never before in history have men been matched up with women who are so much their equal—socially, professionally, and sexually. By the time they reach their twenties, they have years of experience with women as equal competitors—in school, on soccer fields, and even in bed. They very reasonably assume that the women they are meeting at a bar or café or gym are after the same things they are: financial independence, career success, toned triceps, and sex.

That’s the bait; here comes the switch. Women may want equality at the conference table and treadmill. But when it comes to sex and dating, they aren’t so sure. The might hook up as freely as a Duke athlete. Or, they might want men to play Greatest Generation gentleman. Yes, they want men to pay for dinner, call for dates—a writer at the popular dating website The Frisky titled a recent piece “Call me and ask me out for a damn date!”—and open doors for them. A lot of men wonder: “WTF??!” Why should they do the asking? Why should they pay for dinner? After all, they are equals and in any case, the woman a guy is asking out probably has more cash in her pocket than he does; recent female graduates are making more than males in most large cities.

Sure, girls can—and do—ask guys out for dinner and pick up the check without missing a beat. Women can make that choice. Men say they have no choice. If they want a life, they have to ask women out on dates; they have to initiate conversations at bars and parties, they have to take the lead on sex. Women can take a Chinese menu approach to gender roles. They can be all “Let me pay for the movie tickets” on Friday nights, and “A single rose? That’s it?” on Valentine’s Day.

Far worse in the bait and switch category is women’s stated preference for nice guys and actual attraction to bad boys. Now, clearly this is not true for all women. Many, maybe even most, want a guy with the sweetness of a Jimmy Stewart and sensitivity of Ashley Wilkes. But enough of them are partial to the Charlie Sheens of this world that one popular dating guru, David DeAngleo, lists “Being Too Much of a Nice Guy” as No. 1 in his “Ten Most Dangerous Mistakes Men Make With Women.” At a website with the evocative name Relation****.com, (“Brutally honest dating advice for the cynical, bitter, and jaded,” and sociological cousin of Dating-is-Hell.com) the most highly trafficked pages are those asking the question why women don’t like good guys.

PlayStations and Internet porn? For a lot of guys, they seem like the better way.

Kay S. Hymowitz is the William E. Simon Fellow at the Manhattan Institute and a contributing editor of City Journal. Her new book is Manning Up.


The reality of the situation is that these modern women are the ones who are not really fulfilled or have any kind of true joy in their lives. The modern American Women is finding out that "having it all" does not provide them with anything meaningful--the career is just a job, shallow relationships provide no security, equality in the workplace is not the panacia they had hoped for.

The feminist movement was wrong about a lot of things, and now both genders are paying the price.

Sorry, sometimes the truth hurts.

Bronco Yoda
03-04-2011, 07:54 AM
Clavi, you have some great thoughts and this is a great discussion. I didn't really read some of the more lengthy posts but all points are well taken.

Stop looking for love. It will find you. Get involved in your community. Volunteer for local organizations, coach kids soccer (there are alot of single soccer moms) or baseball. Surround yourself with firends from both sexes and eventually the right mate will cross your path.

"The ocean is vast and its fish are abundant"
-Woody Allen

You ain't kidding about the soccer thing. You should see my 5yr old boys soccer coach. She's asked me out not once but twice. Now she obviously knows I'm married. That tight little spandex shorts & shirt t'hingy she teases with ought to be outlawed.

Chris
03-04-2011, 07:57 AM
Here's why we're so angry:



http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/wireStory?id=13047297

Well if she's 17, swims and lifts weights chances are she looks like a brit shack house... as a former swimmer I can attest to it not being the ideal sport for the female physique. Just sayin.

Anyways... very interesting discussion. I will need some real time before I can be serious and get into it.

crawdad
03-04-2011, 07:58 AM
You ain't kidding about the soccer thing. You should see my 5yr old boys soccer coach. She's asked me out not once but twice. Now she obviously knows I'm married. That tight little spandex shorts & shirt t'hingy she teases with ought to be outlawed.

Well obviously the shoe is on the other foot but this always worked for me!

Bronco Yoda
03-04-2011, 08:38 AM
The more I ignore her the more flirty she's getting. I swear I caught her circling my house the other day. And she upped the emails. Thats all I need is some college girl getting me into trouble.

Jason in LA
03-04-2011, 08:42 AM
Stop looking for love. It will find you. Get involved in your community. Volunteer for local organizations, coach kids soccer (there are alot of single soccer moms) or baseball. Surround yourself with firends from both sexes and eventually the right mate will cross your path.

"The ocean is vast and its fish are abundant"
-Woody Allen

I agree with this, well, except the single mom part ;D

The way I see it, anybody who is looking for love is going to end up settling for what ever comes around. Those people just want to be in a relationship. People who aren't looking, but just kind of floating around, have a better chance because they'll wait for that right person to come along. They're willing to let people go who are just good enough, but not really what they want.

As far as surrounding yourself with people, I totally agree with that point. I'm a member of an organization that is linked to a number of other organizations. Because I'm active with my organization, a lot of people from the other organizations know me, or know of me. So it's like I'm "pre-qualified" by a lot of the women. Makes it easier to get a date. Because I'm cool with a lot of the women in the other organizations, they've set me up with their friends. And if I saw a woman that I was interested and I'm cool with one of her friends, I'm pretty much in already.

As for the single mothers, it's a totally different topic, but I'd avoid that route. There are a lot of issues there. I'm sure there have been a lot of guys who had success there, but a guy dating a single mother could be in for a lot of drama. And isn't it kind of pathetic to become a coach of a youth team to get at single moms? I've coached youth teams for the past five years. I'm not talking to any of the single mothers like that. Seems kind of inappropreate to me.

alkemical
03-04-2011, 08:42 AM
I'd like some of the women here to get into a little more of the:

"I can change him" mentality.

I'd like to know if this is an inherent woman trait, or more a western trait....

Punisher
03-04-2011, 08:45 AM
It's because men have been


Dazed And Confused

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auDv6cf2PBM

Willynowei
03-04-2011, 08:47 AM
in and out of situations with mildly attractive women and having the freedom to play video games and watch porn whenever we want vs. a LTR with a drop dead gorgeous woman with much more to offer, but also the added weight of the usual maintenance requirements?

I don't know, I'm not saying ones clearly better than the other, but you can see the dillema here LOL!

alkemical
03-04-2011, 08:48 AM
in and out of situations with mildly attractive women and having the freedom to play video games and watch porn whenever we want vs. a LTR with a drop dead gorgeous woman with much more to offer, but also the added weight of the usual maintenance requirements?

I don't know, I'm not saying ones clearly better than the other, but you can see the dillema here LOL!

Does the bolded statement illustrate "false expectations"?

bendog
03-04-2011, 08:51 AM
I'd like some of the women here to get into a little more of the:

"I can change him" mentality.

I'd like to know if this is an inherent woman trait, or more a western trait....

It's fun to disillusion them. To see their spirits dashed and broken on the rocks of sloth and insobriety

Bronco Yoda
03-04-2011, 08:52 AM
You single guys are doing it all wrong. Guess thats why you'r single.

crawdad
03-04-2011, 08:52 AM
I agree with this, well, except the single mom part ;D

The way I see it, anybody who is looking for love is going to end up settling for what ever comes around. Those people just want to be in a relationship. People who aren't looking, but just kind of floating around, have a better chance because they'll wait for that right person to come along. They're willing to let people go who are just good enough, but not really what they want.

As far as surrounding yourself with people, I totally agree with that point. I'm a member of an organization that is linked to a number of other organizations. Because I'm active with my organization, a lot of people from the other organizations know me, or know of me. So it's like I'm "pre-qualified" by a lot of the women. Makes it easier to get a date. Because I'm cool with a lot of the women in the other organizations, they've set me up with their friends. And if I saw a woman that I was interested and I'm cool with one of her friends, I'm pretty much in already.

As for the single mothers, it's a totally different topic, but I'd avoid that route. There are a lot of issues there. I'm sure there have been a lot of guys who had success there, but a guy dating a single mother could be in for a lot of drama. And isn't it kind of pathetic to become a coach of a youth team to get at single moms? I've coached youth teams for the past five years. I'm not talking to any of the single mothers like that. Seems kind of inappropreate to me.

Actually it isn't. When you have time to burn and are into sports this is an excellent way to meet new people including single moms. Just because she is a mother doesn't mean that she is tarnished or unworthy. That is more shallow than inappropriate

alkemical
03-04-2011, 08:54 AM
You single guys are doing it all wrong. Guess thats why you'r single.

Explain?

(Personally, I don't mind being single - I just have seen this as an area of concern and felt that dialogue was needed to try to help the situation. If I want a GF, i could find one - just not interested in what I've found.)

Jason in LA
03-04-2011, 08:54 AM
The more I ignore her the more flirty she's getting. I swear I caught her circling my house the other day. And she upped the emails. Thats all I need is some college girl getting me into trouble.

Wow, that sounds like a stalker.

tsr28
03-04-2011, 08:54 AM
Just got myself out of a situation like that. She had been in an abusive relationship with an unemployed high school dropout. I was like a "dream" to her (her words, not mine)

after a year and a half I guess she got bored and cheated on me for months with an 18 year old kid who works at Home Depot

Last I heard she had just had an abortion and was still with him even though he was arrested for hitting her

Can't make a ho into a housewife, kids

I lived this scenario as well, it tore me apart, the nicest way to say this is you can take the person out of the bad situation, but you can't take the bad situation out of the person.

alkemical
03-04-2011, 08:55 AM
Actually it isn't. When you have time to burn and are into sports this is an excellent way to meet new people including single moms. Just because she is a mother doesn't mean that she is tarnished or unworthy. That is more shallow than inappropriate

And you know she puts out...

:)

bendog
03-04-2011, 08:55 AM
Actually it isn't. When you have time to burn and are into sports this is an excellent way to meet new people including single moms. Just because she is a mother doesn't mean that she is tarnished or unworthy. That is more shallow than inappropriate

True, and with a little luck her ex was such a jerk that the bar has been set very low, so she may not be a total pain in the ass.

Punisher
03-04-2011, 08:56 AM
You single guys are doing it all wrong. Guess thats why you'r single.

lol It's easy to get a girl friend

oubronco
03-04-2011, 08:56 AM
http://i52.tinypic.com/2a7crar.jpg

alkemical
03-04-2011, 08:56 AM
Wow, that sounds like a stalker.

Ding!

alkemical
03-04-2011, 08:57 AM
lol It's easy to get a girl friend

Correct!

Willynowei
03-04-2011, 08:59 AM
Does the bolded statement illustrate "false expectations"?

Well what part, the pretty woman or the LTR?

No, if you are willing to manufacture a persona most guys can get what they want for as long as they want, but the issue you run into is the sustainability of that persona, and hence your LTR.

Listen to be honest, if you are a guy and you're running issues keeping a woman, then either you're doing it wrong or the girl you're going after simply isn't worth it. Period.

Bronco Vixen
03-04-2011, 09:04 AM
I'm 23 years old, I'm working full-time getting acclimated to my first gig after university and I have a lot of personal projects (writing and music) going on.

Relationships take time and a lot of effort.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty picky with my standards, though I do not think they are unreasonable.


This, this, this, this, this.

Problem #1: Looking for the “perfect girl/guy” when the goal should be looking for the perfect girl/guy for YOU.
Requirement: really knowing yourself first and foremost – your likes, dislikes, nonnegotiables, priorities, interests etc.

Problem #2: Very few people know themselves.
Two reasons for this:
1) We start out dating when we are still self-aware infants and seek out relationships to avoid being alone. We look for little more than whether or not the other person is interested in us and/or are shiny and pretty to look at. Not shockingly, the chances of finding a genuine match with these minimal standards are rare to none. If we don’t evolve out of this cycle, we lose years in unfulfilling relationships, which preclude us from ever really discovering who we really are and what we really want.
2) Your “everyone gets a trophy” generation has rarely been allowed to fail. Aside from not teaching you all how to deal with adversity (“I’m mad, so I’m going to go to my room and play Mass Effect and whack it to some midget donkey porn” instead of finding gainful employment & housing), it has also clouded your self-perception – if you’re told you’re good at everything, you can’t develop an accurate picture of who you really are – your true strengths and genuine interests, but even more importantly – the things at which you suck.
How are you ever going to find a good match out there, when you haven’t even cleaned your own kitchen?

Solution: Take some time to build a really cool & fulfilling life for yourself based on genuine professional/personal interests & good friends. It takes time to learn who you really are but that’s the only way you’re going to find your perfect partner. Then you can be super picky because you don’t NEED to be in a relationship. Your life is fulfilled independently. Someone will really need to step up to the plate with something to offer. It may take some time, but patience & some concerted work in these areas do pay off.

That or you’ll end up enjoying the company of multiple felines and fellow quilting betties.

It definitely took some time for me and mine is the typically fairytale love story – I met my husband-to-be, he slipped me a roofie, and 4 months later I ended up knocked up and married. We are now living happily ever after with his other family – although they stay primarily in the elaborate basement tunnel/cave that he carved by hand for them.
Seriously though, he is phenomenal – mostly because he is exactly like me :approve: and every day I am thankful I waited. He definitely has his flaws, tragically he is a Bears fan, but we work through them together.

Bottom line: Hang in there and focus less on what is external to you and out of your control (“there are no good men/women out there”) and more on what you can do to make your life meaningful on your own.

Jason in LA
03-04-2011, 09:08 AM
Actually it isn't. When you have time to burn and are into sports this is an excellent way to meet new people including single moms. Just because she is a mother doesn't mean that she is tarnished or unworthy. That is more shallow than inappropriate

I have no issue with a guy becoming a youth coach because he's into sports. Most of the teams that I've coached my son played on. This past football season was the first time I coached a team that he wasn't on. I coached a 6 year old tackle football team and it was just awesome.

So I don't have a problem with somebody coaching a youth team just for the sport of it, or giving back to the community.

But if one of the reasons is to meet single moms, sorry man, that's not cool at all. There are so many ways to meet women, that one shouldn't be on the list. If a guy is coaching just for the sport of it, and happens to meet a woman in the process, that's one thing. But if one of the goals is to meet women, that's kind of creepy. Like, at the first team meeting is this guy going to be hitting on the single moms? And I'd say that's kind of taking advantage of the situation.

As for the point of a single mother being tarnished or unworthy, that's not my point either. If a guy meets a woman and they hit it off, and she happens to be a single mom, that's one thing. There is nothing wrong with that. But if a guy enters an enviornment where he knows that there are single mothers, with a goal of getting a date, that's not cool. It's like the guy thinks he'll have an easier time because this woman has needs. That's like taking advantage of the situation.

alkemical
03-04-2011, 09:08 AM
Well what part, the pretty woman or the LTR?

No, if you are willing to manufacture a persona most guys can get what they want for as long as they want, but the issue you run into is the sustainability of that persona, and hence your LTR.

Listen to be honest, if you are a guy and you're running issues keeping a woman, then either you're doing it wrong or the girl you're going after simply isn't worth it. Period.

Part of it is the idealized form of beauty...the other part of you just mentioned is a well, pretty psychopathic.



Good guys don't win in today's culture. Is that a perception, or is there truth in that statement.

If you can "be fake" and get any woman you want for as long as you want, aren't you just perpetuating the problem of narcissism and have a shallow attachment/investment in your relationship?

Willynowei
03-04-2011, 09:08 AM
This, this, this, this, this.

Problem #1: Looking for the “perfect girl/guy” when the goal should be looking for the perfect girl/guy for YOU.
Requirement: really knowing yourself first and foremost – your likes, dislikes, nonnegotiables, priorities, interests etc.

Problem #2: Very few people know themselves.
Two reasons for this:
1) We start out dating when we are still self-aware infants seek out relationships to avoid being alone. We look for little more than whether or not the other person is interested in us and/or are shiny and pretty to look at. Not shockingly, the chances of finding a genuine match with these minimal standards are rare to none. If we don’t evolve out of this cycle, we lose years in unfulfilling relationships, which preclude us from ever really discovering who we really are and what we really want.
2) Your “everyone gets a trophy” generation has rarely been allowed to fail. Aside from not teaching you all how to deal with adversity (“I’m mad, so I’m going to go to my room and play Mass Effect and whack it to some midget donkey porn” instead of finding gainful employment & housing), it has also clouded your self-perception – if you’re told you’re good at everything, you can’t develop an accurate picture of who you really are – your true strengths and genuine interests, but even more importantly – the things at which you suck.
How are you ever going to find a good match out there, when you haven’t even cleaned your own kitchen?

Solution: Take some time to build a really cool & fulfilling life for yourself based on genuine professional/personal interests & good friends. It takes time to learn who you really are but that’s the only way you’re going to find your perfect partner. Then you can be super picky because you don’t NEED to be in a relationship. Your life is fulfilled independently. Someone will really need to step up to the plate with something to offer. It may take some time, but patience & some concerted work in these areas do pay off.

That or you’ll end up enjoying the company of multiple felines and fellow quilting betties.

It definitely took some time for me and mine is the typically fairytale love story – I met my husband-to-be, he slipped me a roofie, and 4 months later I ended up knocked up and married. We are now living happily ever after with his other family – although they stay primarily in the elaborate basement tunnel/cave that he carved by hand for them.
Seriously though, he is phenomenal – mostly because he is exactly like me :) and every day I am thankful I waited. He definitely has his flaws, tragically he is a Bears fan, but we work through them together.

Bottom line: Hang in there and focus less on what is external to you and out of your control (“there are no good men/women out there”) and more on what you can do to make your life meaningful on your own.

Agree with a lot of that.

alkemical
03-04-2011, 09:10 AM
This, this, this, this, this.

Problem #1: Looking for the “perfect girl/guy” when the goal should be looking for the perfect girl/guy for YOU.
Requirement: really knowing yourself first and foremost – your likes, dislikes, nonnegotiables, priorities, interests etc.

Problem #2: Very few people know themselves.
Two reasons for this:
1) We start out dating when we are still self-aware infants seek out relationships to avoid being alone. We look for little more than whether or not the other person is interested in us and/or are shiny and pretty to look at. Not shockingly, the chances of finding a genuine match with these minimal standards are rare to none. If we don’t evolve out of this cycle, we lose years in unfulfilling relationships, which preclude us from ever really discovering who we really are and what we really want.
2) Your “everyone gets a trophy” generation has rarely been allowed to fail. Aside from not teaching you all how to deal with adversity (“I’m mad, so I’m going to go to my room and play Mass Effect and whack it to some midget donkey porn” instead of finding gainful employment & housing), it has also clouded your self-perception – if you’re told you’re good at everything, you can’t develop an accurate picture of who you really are – your true strengths and genuine interests, but even more importantly – the things at which you suck.
How are you ever going to find a good match out there, when you haven’t even cleaned your own kitchen?

Solution: Take some time to build a really cool & fulfilling life for yourself based on genuine professional/personal interests & good friends. It takes time to learn who you really are but that’s the only way you’re going to find your perfect partner. Then you can be super picky because you don’t NEED to be in a relationship. Your life is fulfilled independently. Someone will really need to step up to the plate with something to offer. It may take some time, but patience & some concerted work in these areas do pay off.

That or you’ll end up enjoying the company of multiple felines and fellow quilting betties.

It definitely took some time for me and mine is the typically fairytale love story – I met my husband-to-be, he slipped me a roofie, and 4 months later I ended up knocked up and married. We are now living happily ever after with his other family – although they stay primarily in the elaborate basement tunnel/cave that he carved by hand for them.
Seriously though, he is phenomenal – mostly because he is exactly like me :) and every day I am thankful I waited. He definitely has his flaws, tragically he is a Bears fan, but we work through them together.

Bottom line: Hang in there and focus less on what is external to you and out of your control (“there are no good men/women out there”) and more on what you can do to make your life meaningful on your own.


:) great post

Jason in LA
03-04-2011, 09:11 AM
True, and with a little luck her ex was such a jerk that the bar has been set very low, so she may not be a total pain in the ass.

Well, I'd say that there are single moms in that situation by their own doing, so she might be a total pain in the ass, that's why some of them are single moms.

alkemical
03-04-2011, 09:12 AM
Well, I'd say that there are single moms in that situation by their own doing, so she might be a total pain in the ass, that's why some of them are single moms.

I've met a few of them.

TonyR
03-04-2011, 09:18 AM
Opposites attract but generally don't last. Good article on this topic linked below.

http://www.slate.com/id/2281284/

Willynowei
03-04-2011, 09:23 AM
Part of it is the idealized form of beauty...the other part of you just mentioned is a well, pretty psychopathic.



Good guys don't win in today's culture. Is that a perception, or is there truth in that statement.

If you can "be fake" and get any woman you want for as long as you want, aren't you just perpetuating the problem of narcissism and have a shallow attachment/investment in your relationship?

Listen man, I'm not condoning it, but what exactly is the problem? You realize that economic development, equality, and a liberal democratic society are all factors that correlate with increased divorce rates, later marriage and all these other relationship "problems" seen here in the US?

Lower attachment and more emphasis on looks comes with a woman's financial independence, and relationships more focused on sex.

Thats fine, why can't people do that?

EDIT: And what the hell is with this "good guy" stuff? what's a "good guy"??

Miss I.
03-04-2011, 09:23 AM
interesting posts all. Definitely concur with Vixen (though sorry to hear about the Bears thing, but got to love the guy as they are flaws and all ;D )

And I agree with Jason on the whole joining a sporting league to coach just to date single moms. Join if you genuinely enjoy it for the love of the sport or coaching, but if the goal is dating, there are better ways to do that and more appropriate ways. However, as for the assertion they don't hire or work with single people that is not an issue with most of these things. At least with AYSO, they depend on volunteers regardless of marital status and they do very very thorough background checks and reviews of all volunteers and have no hesitation about letting people go or refusing them if their behaviour deviates from requirements established by the organization.

As for the changing men thing, here's my personal belief (I cannot nor will I speak for an entire gender, that's just asinine) I believe in accepting someone as I find them, not changing them. However, if in the course of a relationship as you get to know someone more deeply and it appears their core beliefs are too divergent from my own in critical areas, I will walk away. I am not stupid enough to believe someone can be changed, though I do believe people do change over time, but that's due to their own choices over what they allow to influence them to change. Everyone gets changed a bit by the people and experiences they know or have, but it can only be the individual that does that. I can only change myself, I don't own someone else's ability to change themselves nor would I want that.

24champ
03-04-2011, 09:24 AM
I'm happy with my goddesses.

Beantown Bronco
03-04-2011, 09:26 AM
I'm happy with my goddesses.

Clearly, you're winning!

crawdad
03-04-2011, 09:28 AM
I have no issue with a guy becoming a youth coach because he's into sports. Most of the teams that I've coached my son played on. This past football season was the first time I coached a team that he wasn't on. I coached a 6 year old tackle football team and it was just awesome.

So I don't have a problem with somebody coaching a youth team just for the sport of it, or giving back to the community.

But if one of the reasons is to meet single moms, sorry man, that's not cool at all. There are so many ways to meet women, that one shouldn't be on the list. If a guy is coaching just for the sport of it, and happens to meet a woman in the process, that's one thing. But if one of the goals is to meet women, that's kind of creepy. Like, at the first team meeting is this guy going to be hitting on the single moms? And I'd say that's kind of taking advantage of the situation.

As for the point of a single mother being tarnished or unworthy, that's not my point either. If a guy meets a woman and they hit it off, and she happens to be a single mom, that's one thing. There is nothing wrong with that. But if a guy enters an enviornment where he knows that there are single mothers, with a goal of getting a date, that's not cool. It's like the guy thinks he'll have an easier time because this woman has needs. That's like taking advantage of the situation.

I am either not explaining myself or you're missing my point. The whole idea is social interaction. Meeting the single moms is just a bonus. Has nothing to do with "easy mark" thinking. Sorry if I came off that way.

alkemical
03-04-2011, 09:29 AM
Listen man, I'm not condoning it, but what exactly is the problem? You realize that economic development, equality, and a liberal democratic society are all factors that correlate with increased divorce rates, later marriage and all these other relationship "problems" seen here in the US?

Lower attachment and more emphasis on looks comes with a woman's financial independence, and relationships more focused on sex.

Thats fine, why can't people do that?

I guess living in a jaded society that supports narcissism and cannibalism is awesome!

For me, I see a lot of my single friends that have run into problems. Men and Women. Obviously if there wasn't an issue, this thread would have died out.

Willynowei
03-04-2011, 09:33 AM
I guess living in a jaded society that supports narcissism and cannibalism is awesome!

For me, I see a lot of my single friends that have run into problems. Men and Women. Obviously if there wasn't an issue, this thread would have died out.

People look for different things, people have different needs, and some abuse those needs for their own good, that tends to happen when the dating pool is not homogeneously looking for LTR. Modern dating pools are more and more diverse in the needs that each participant is trying to meet, so you've got more of these mismatches going on (a factor in why there's fuel behind threads like this).

Some just aren't looking for a soul mate at this stage of their lives, this tends to happen when jobs take up so much of your time. How many hours does the average employed american work today compared to 50 years ago?

woodall
03-04-2011, 09:33 AM
So, when both men and women are angry and unfulfilled, "whom" do they submit to? For me, that is an essential question of faith.

Why would you need to submit to anyone or anything? I will just never agree with believing in anything without evidence, to me "faith" is useless.

woodall
03-04-2011, 09:39 AM
Who knows, you might just find your soul saved in addition to finding a mate.

:TJnPopps: BARF!!!

alkemical
03-04-2011, 09:40 AM
People look for different things, people have different needs, and some abuse those needs for their own good, that tends to happen when the dating pool is not homogeneously looking for LTR. Modern dating pools are more and more diverse in the needs that each participant is trying to meet, so you've got more of these mismatches going on (a factor in why there's fuel behind threads like this).

Some just aren't looking for a soul mate at this stage of their lives, this tends to happen when jobs take up so much of your time. How many hours does the average employed american work today compared to 50 years ago?

Is career taking up more time because of the jaded nature of interpersonal relationships?

Looking for an LTR is part of the problem of EXPECTATIONS and ENTITLEMENT.

A nice heart and a white suit and a baby blue sedan
And I am doing the best that I can
All the eunuchs, they were standing in rows
Singing, "Please stud us out just as fast as you possibly can"
Sad song, last dance and no one knows who the band was
And Henry, you danced like a wooden Indian
Except this one mattered and I felt it had a spirit
And I shot the story because I didn't hear it that way
And it's hard to be a human being
And it's harder as anything else
And I'm lonesome when you're around
And I'm never lonesome when I'm by myself
And I miss you when you're around - Modest Mouse

Willynowei
03-04-2011, 09:43 AM
Is career taking up more time because of the jaded nature of interpersonal relationships?

Looking for an LTR is part of the problem of EXPECTATIONS and ENTITLEMENT.

- Modest Mouse

Explain to me what is wrong with expectations and entitlement.

Popps
03-04-2011, 09:52 AM
I'm 32 and have given up on finding a "good" woman. One who is willing to work hard, one who doesn't feel entitled, etc.

I just found "other" things to do, and stopped focusing on "Marriage, family, etc".

Good. Quit looking... maybe you'll find something.

Took me 37 years until I found the best woman on earth. Now I'm blessed with a beautiful family, on top of it.

To me the key was.... I was perfectly content being single and now I'm perfectly content being married.

It's all about acceptance of what is.

woodall
03-04-2011, 10:00 AM
The reality of the situation is that these modern women are the ones who are not really fulfilled or have any kind of true joy in their lives. The modern American Women is finding out that "having it all" does not provide them with anything meaningful--the career is just a job, shallow relationships provide no security, equality in the workplace is not the panacia they had hoped for.

The feminist movement was wrong about a lot of things, and now both genders are paying the price.

Sorry, sometimes the truth hurts.

Signed,
Grumpy, Old, White, Conservative Guy

Can you believe those damn women think they are equal to us men? BTW I am being sarcastic and you are a douche!

P.S. You can't spell "panacea"

underrated29
03-04-2011, 10:04 AM
eh, Dont hate on the single moms. I can get where they are at being a single dad in my mid 20s. Just because there is a kid does not mean they are insane or have drama. Some do, not all.


But its impossible to date when you have a kid. The only girls that want to date a guy with a kid are fugly, weird or already have their own litter of kids.

You never know, maybe the single moms ex became a drug addict, and she got out to make a better life for the kid. Its what happened to me.

alkemical
03-04-2011, 10:05 AM
Explain to me what is wrong with expectations and entitlement.

"men are looking for their whores, and women are looking for faery tales"

What happens when those expectations aren't met, and it builds, creates resentment and creates imbalances in iterpersonal relationships?

If you help a friend move, but when you need a hand and they cop out of it...how does that effect your relationship with your friend.

Do you find it acceptable to use people for your own needs.

If it's a matter of personal ethics, and you see no wrong in using people for selfish reasons, or returning douchebaggery because you got some ****ty treatment, is that acceptable?

Beantown Bronco
03-04-2011, 10:06 AM
You never know, maybe the single moms ex became a drug addict, and she got out to make a better life for the kid. Its what happened to me.

Your ex left you because you became a drug addict? :)

bendog
03-04-2011, 10:07 AM
Signed,
Grumpy, Old, White, Conservative Guy

Can you believe those damn women think they are equal to us men? BTW I am being sarcastic and you are a douche!

When we gave you women the vote, it all went to hell. That was the beginning of the end for this nation. Y'all vote with hormones rather than brains.

woodall
03-04-2011, 10:12 AM
When we gave you women the vote, it all went to hell. That was the beginning of the end for this nation. Y'all vote with hormones rather than brains.

For the record, I am a male.

Beantown Bronco
03-04-2011, 10:13 AM
When we gave you women the vote, it all went to hell. That was the beginning of the end for this nation. Y'all vote with hormones rather than brains.

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bendog
03-04-2011, 10:18 AM
For the record, I am a male.

Then act like one and tell you're woman to bring you a cold beer. And btw it's spelled "placenta.":wave:

Seriously though, Clav's initial post starting the thread alluded to it, but simply put people in this culture don't really reach adulthood until their 30s, by and large. As for all the women I dated before I met my wife, the only one who was remotely sane was a single mom. Single moms who take their responsibility seriously have to grow up fast.

However, I caution anyone against marrying too young. Once you're married sex is either boring or with a hooker in vegas, so why rush it.

Willynowei
03-04-2011, 10:19 AM
"men are looking for their whores, and women are looking for faery tales"

What happens when those expectations aren't met, and it builds, creates resentment and creates imbalances in iterpersonal relationships?

If you help a friend move, but when you need a hand and they cop out of it...how does that effect your relationship with your friend.

Do you find it acceptable to use people for your own needs.

If it's a matter of personal ethics, and you see no wrong in using people for selfish reasons, or returning douchebaggery because you got some ****ty treatment, is that acceptable?

The assumption there is the first line in your post, thats simply not true.

Albeit, it seems that the age of men when they look for stability vs. sexual exploration seems to be staggered a bit compared to women.

I never said I felt it was okay to lie about what you're looking for in order to obtain what you want, I simply said its okay to look for things beyond emotional compatibility. Some people just want sex, some want a trophy bf(disney)/gf(hollywood). Its their choice, as long as they are honest and upfront theres nothing wrong with it.

If you're trying to criminalize the overall lifestyle some are living, then I'm not with you. If you're upset about seeing people being mistreated, then thats legitimate but the only solution to that is personal growth and more careful screening for what you want.

underrated29
03-04-2011, 10:23 AM
Your ex left you because you became a drug addict? :)

lol. I knew that was coming.
-----------------------------

my experience I agree with alcem, women want that fairy tale disney thing. And they are not smart enough to know what they really want and need. Like one of the ladies-vix or something said earlier. I am a pretty good looking guy, never have a problem meeting women anywhere really. But if I tell them I have a kid immediately-they walk. I can wait and not tell them and they will want a ltr...Did this as an experiment once to prove it to the guys on my hockey team. It worked. I could not tell the girls til later after they like me, but I know what I want and waiting/ disguising is not what i want.

alkemical
03-04-2011, 10:24 AM
The assumption there is the first line in your post, thats simply not true.

Albeit, it seems that the age of men when they look for stability vs. sexual exploration seems to be staggered a bit compared to women.

I never said I felt it was okay to lie about what you're looking for in order to obtain what you want, I simply said its okay to look for things beyond emotional compatibility. Some people just want sex, some want a trophy bf/gf. Its their choice, as long as they are honest and upfront theres nothing wrong with it.

If you're trying to criminalize the lifestyle some are living, then I'm not with you.


Honesty is the first and most important part of any relationship: Friendship, romantic, etc.

You see keep asking what is wrong with entitlement and expectations, but you aren't willing to participate in the discussion of what happens when those "ideals" become failed.

I'm not here to bitch, i'm here to create an open dialogue to find out where the common ground lies. If there has been a shift if gender role, and it's creating an imbalance, why not find out where the common ground is and build from there?

alkemical
03-04-2011, 10:27 AM
lol. I knew that was coming.
-----------------------------

my experience I agree with alcem, women want that fairy tale disney thing. And they are not smart enough to know what they really want and need. Like one of the ladies-vix or something said earlier. I am a pretty good looking guy, never have a problem meeting women anywhere really. But if I tell them I have a kid immediately-they walk. I can wait and not tell them and they will want a ltr...Did this as an experiment once to prove it to the guys on my hockey team. It worked. I could not tell the girls til later after they like me, but I know what I want and waiting/ disguising is not what i want.

My chica friends with children have run into the same situation. It's a bum wrap.

bendog
03-04-2011, 10:28 AM
lol. I knew that was coming.
-----------------------------

my experience I agree with alcem, women want that fairy tale disney thing. And they are not smart enough to know what they really want and need. Like one of the ladies-vix or something said earlier. I am a pretty good looking guy, never have a problem meeting women anywhere really. But if I tell them I have a kid immediately-they walk. I can wait and not tell them and they will want a ltr...Did this as an experiment once to prove it to the guys on my hockey team. It worked. I could not tell the girls til later after they like me, but I know what I want and waiting/ disguising is not what i want.

Did these women have children too and are you the custodial parent? If the women were single and childless, why would they want anything to do with a guy who is paying support and who is either divorced or has baggage? If you are the custodial parent, why would you blame a young childless woman for not wanting to raise your child?

I don't think many single moms would hold it against a guy to have a child from another relationship, so long as he's supporting the child.

Willynowei
03-04-2011, 10:29 AM
Honesty is the first and most important part of any relationship: Friendship, romantic, etc.

You see keep asking what is wrong with entitlement and expectations, but you aren't willing to participate in the discussion of what happens when those "ideals" become failed.

I'm not here to b****, i'm here to create an open dialogue to find out where the common ground lies. If there has been a shift if gender role, and it's creating an imbalance, why not find out where the common ground is and build from there?

Because they don't become "failed," but simply adjusted. If you expect too much, you adjust it downward when you "fail," which is really personal growth - its an evolution of self knowledge.

People are built to aspire for more, thats the basis for innovation and civilization really. Why can't we aspire for the most desirable mate (even if thats a societal construct) and only settle for the best we can achieve?

Common ground comes only when we've reached and failed enough to discover what is achievable and mended such with our ego.

alkemical
03-04-2011, 10:30 AM
Did these women have children too and are you the custodial parent? If the women were single and childless, why would they want anything to do with a guy who is paying support and who is either divorced or has baggage? If you are the custodial parent, why would you blame a young childless woman for not wanting to raise your child?

I don't think many single moms would hold it against a guy to have a child from another relationship, so long as he's supporting the child.

Totally depends man. I know at times I have not commited to a woman with a child because I didn't want to raise their child, then I had others that didn't want me to have any "role" model ability in the house.

underrated29
03-04-2011, 10:30 AM
My chica friends with children have run into the same situation. It's a bum wrap.


yup. Its a bitch. but it is what it is. Sooner than later those girls will wake up, guys for your girls, until then........Freedom?..




or you can send those ladies my way:~ohyah!:

Tombstone RJ
03-04-2011, 10:32 AM
Signed,
Grumpy, Old, White, Conservative Guy

Can you believe those damn women think they are equal to us men? BTW I am being sarcastic and you are a douche!

P.S. You can't spell "panacea"

the spelling police... thanks.

I never said equality was bad. I said "having it all" including the career and things like sexual equality (whatever that is) is not the panacea the feminist movement promised.

I think this latest angst by young men is just a reflection of their disillusionment with their lives. "Can't find any good women" is the opposite of what women were saying a decade back: "Can't find any good men." The "Can't find any good men" saying has been around for a while. I find it ironic as hell that now young men are saying the same stuff.

Seriously, it's strange.

alkemical
03-04-2011, 10:33 AM
yup. Its a b****. but it is what it is. Sooner than later those girls will wake up, guys for your girls, until then........Freedom?..




or you can send those ladies my way:~ohyah!:

Two of them are lost causes.

Willynowei
03-04-2011, 10:35 AM
the spelling police... thanks.

I never said equality was bad. I said "having it all" including the career and things like sexual equality (whatever that is) is not the panacea the feminist movement promised.

I think this latest angst by young men is just a reflection of their disillusionment with their lives. "Can't find any good women" is the opposite of what women were saying a decade back: "Can't find any good men." The "Can't find any good men" saying has been around for a while. I find it ironic as hell that now young men are saying the same stuff.

Seriously, it's strange.

Supply and demand. Financially dependent women who have little choice but to be "good" at the time, when they feel they can best grab a husband, are going to flat out be more "good."

Now they are on equal footing; the luxuries of being a man are eroding in that area.

alkemical
03-04-2011, 10:35 AM
the spelling police... thanks.

I never said equality was bad. I said "having it all" including the career and things like sexual equality (whatever that is) is not the panacea the feminist movement promised.

I think this latest angst by young men is just a reflection of their disillusionment with their lives. "Can't find any good women" is the opposite of what women were saying a decade back: "Can't find any good men." The "Can't find any good men" saying has been around for a while. I find it ironic as hell that now young men are saying the same stuff.

Seriously, it's strange.

What's your take on "bromance"?

bendog
03-04-2011, 10:35 AM
Totally depends man. I know at times I have not commited to a woman with a child because I didn't want to raise their child, then I had others that didn't want me to have any "role" model ability in the house.

I deleted my previous post because I may have misunderstood underrated's message. But I don't agree that it's the same for men and women. IF a guy is a single parent, then yeah I'd agree there's a similarity. But if you are raising a kid, you're naturally going to be very careful about introducing someone into the household. Being a single mom (or dad) in your 20s is incredibly difficult.

alkemical
03-04-2011, 10:38 AM
I deleted my previous post because I may have misunderstood underrated's message. But I don't agree that it's the same for men and women. IF a guy is a single parent, then yeah I'd agree there's a similarity. But if you are raising a kid, you're naturally going to be very careful about introducing someone into the household. Being a single mom (or dad) in your 20s is incredibly difficult.

agreed, and disagree.

underrated29
03-04-2011, 10:40 AM
Did these women have children too and are you the custodial parent? If the women were single and childless, why would they want anything to do with a guy who is paying support and who is either divorced or has baggage? If you are the custodial parent, why would you blame a young childless woman for not wanting to raise your child?

I don't think many single moms would hold it against a guy to have a child from another relationship, so long as he's supporting the child.


I have custody, but I do not need anyone to raise my child. Nor would I expect my girlfriend to do that. I am a fully capable person and parent. I do not rely on others nor want too..but really how or why would any person/ girl think that they would have to raise someone elses kid? I mean if the parent has been single for a bit they have been raising the kid on their own. Why would that suddenly change?


Same if you switch roles, if I was a guy with no kid dating or intersted in a single mom, I would expect her to raise her kid and not me. I will be with her and the kid, obviously at times, and help out because I care and like her. But she is the mom- thats on her. If we got married or whatever fine.

alkemical
03-04-2011, 10:44 AM
I have custody, but I do not need anyone to raise my child. Nor would I expect my girlfriend to do that. I am a fully capable person and parent. I do not rely on others nor want too..but really how or why would any person/ girl think that they would have to raise someone elses kid? I mean if the parent has been single for a bit they have been raising the kid on their own. Why would that suddenly change?


Same if you switch roles, if I was a guy with no kid dating or intersted in a single mom, I would expect her to raise her kid and not me. I will be with her and the kid, obviously at times, and help out because I care and like her. But she is the mom- thats on her. If we got married or whatever fine.

This is where I disagree: If you are dating someone with a kid, I feel that you have to be careful and honest. You know that if it turns into a long term thing, you are going to be a parent in some capacity, and it should be something you want.

Tombstone RJ
03-04-2011, 10:45 AM
What's your take on "bromance"?

You are not going to be fulfilled by a bromance. Friends are friends and it's good to have friends but if you substitute a guy friend for a marriage to a woman, you are going suffer.

IMHO, men and women were created for each other, they compliment each other, the complete each other. Yes, the modern relationship is complicated but there are boundaries that men and women need to respect. Women are not men, men are not women.

IMHO, it's ok to tell a woman "no." No, you can't wrestle on a man's team. No, you can't be a fire fighter. No, you can't be an infantry soldier in the Army. No, you can't serve on a submarine.

There's boundaries, let's respect them.

bowtown
03-04-2011, 10:45 AM
SFOL #170: If you can never seem to find the right guy it’s because you’re the wrong girl… by everyone’s standards. (http://sfol.wordpress.com/2009/05/21/sfol-170-if-you-can-never-seem-to-find-the-right-guy-its-because-youre-the-wrong-girl-by-everyones-standards/)

Works both ways.

alkemical
03-04-2011, 10:55 AM
SFOL #170: If you can never seem to find the right guy it’s because you’re the wrong girl… by everyone’s standards. (http://sfol.wordpress.com/2009/05/21/sfol-170-if-you-can-never-seem-to-find-the-right-guy-its-because-youre-the-wrong-girl-by-everyones-standards/)

Works both ways.

Agreed, or it feels like that.

bendog
03-04-2011, 10:59 AM
I have custody, but I do not need anyone to raise my child. Nor would I expect my girlfriend to do that. I am a fully capable person and parent. I do not rely on others nor want too..but really how or why would any person/ girl think that they would have to raise someone elses kid? I mean if the parent has been single for a bit they have been raising the kid on their own. Why would that suddenly change?


Same if you switch roles, if I was a guy with no kid dating or intersted in a single mom, I would expect her to raise her kid and not me. I will be with her and the kid, obviously at times, and help out because I care and like her. But she is the mom- thats on her. If we got married or whatever fine.

yeah, well see that's where I'm not tracking. When I dated a single mom, back in the 1980s before I got married and entered into a commitment (except for hookers), I understood that a. I had no parenting role and b. I should not attempt to have any relationship with the kid because I was most likely temporary. I can understand a guy not wanting to get into that kind of dating situation. And the same for a woman dating a custodial dad. If you're young and single you want romance, spontaniety, travel, fun .... Kids get in the way. It's not being selfish to opt out of that.

And it's not being selfish for a person to not want to enter a longterm relationship with a custodial parent because the person does not want the responsibility for the child. And here's where its a little different for the sexes. A male can raise a child just fine. But the male will never experience the emotions caused by being pregnant and giving birth. It's a lot more to ask a single, fertile, childless woman to raise another woman's child than it is to ask a single man to help raise a child. The woman gives up more.

Seems to me though that a single mom would find a custodial male parent to be extremely attractive because he's a guy who is taking his **** seriously, as opposed to a guy who is just looking to get laid. I can see where it's a difficult situation for a single guy dad, though. A single parent has to put so much into their kid, that sex tends to be of the just getting laid variety. A single custodial dad would not be a good candidate for short term physical sex. Sort of hard to have a short term affair with another person who also has to schedule life around car pools.Nor would a single custodial dad be very attractive for most single childless women. However, in a PTA or chuch setting, where single parents meet up, then that'd be another story.

bendog
03-04-2011, 11:00 AM
bromance = fag! (-:

alkemical
03-04-2011, 11:08 AM
bromance = fag! (-:

haha!

Jason in LA
03-04-2011, 11:08 AM
eh, Dont hate on the single moms. I can get where they are at being a single dad in my mid 20s. Just because there is a kid does not mean they are insane or have drama. Some do, not all.


But its impossible to date when you have a kid. The only girls that want to date a guy with a kid are fugly, weird or already have their own litter of kids.

You never know, maybe the single moms ex became a drug addict, and she got out to make a better life for the kid. Its what happened to me.

Well my point wasn't that all, or most single moms will give you a lot of issues. But I'd say that there is a good chance of you having to deal with those issues if you date a single mom.

A lot of people have an eyebrow raised when I say that it's not wise to date single moms, because I am a single father, and my son lives with me. I'd advice anybody who is single with no kids, man or woman, to be very careful when dating a single parent. Because you might end up dating that person and their child/children. There are a ton of issues that come with that.

There are success stories, but there are a lot of bad stories. And there are a lot of people who are dealing with issues that they could have avoided.

Dating for you is tough now, but as your child gets older it will become a lot easier. My son is in high school, so it's easy to set up a date. When he was younger it was a lot tougher. It was tough to get away, which limited the amount of dating that I could do.

One thing that I recommend is that you keep your dating life and parent life separate. I do that because I don't want to bring women in and out of my son's life, and I don't want a woman thinking that she will have any type of parenting duties when we are simply dating. I don't want a woman thinking that I'm looking for a mother for my child. If I get into a committed relationship, then she'll meet him, but we're not going to be doing a lot of family type outings. If it becomes a serious long term relationship, then I would want her to have a relationship with my son. But for a woman that I'm causally dating, she's not meeting the kid.

I'd suggest that anybody who is single, man or woman, if you're dating a person with a child, and you end up meeting that child early on, or are invited to a family type event early on in the dating process, that's a sign that you're going to be expected to take an active role in the family. If you're looking for a ready made family, then go for it. But if that's not what you're looking for, then I'd say be caution.

underrated29
03-04-2011, 11:20 AM
This is where I disagree: If you are dating someone with a kid, I feel that you have to be careful and honest. You know that if it turns into a long term thing, you are going to be a parent in some capacity, and it should be something you want.



Guess, I did not make that very clear. I agree with the said above. Where i dont is when you (as a parent or as the single person) expect to have someone else raise their child.

Like me, I know if I do get into something serious with a girl that is long term, first of all, i would be cautious bringing them around my son but if its long term then yeah, in some capacity she would help raise him. But I do not expect her to do anything more in the early phases then she would if there was no child involved, or perhaps a puppy dog involved. Going with us to activities, walks etc. No real parenting.

Jason in LA
03-04-2011, 11:21 AM
But if I tell them I have a kid immediately-they walk. I can wait and not tell them and they will want a ltr...Did this as an experiment once to prove it to the guys on my hockey team. It worked. I could not tell the girls til later after they like me, but I know what I want and waiting/ disguising is not what i want.

I've found that to be tricky. You're right, if you tell them very early on they'll pretty much put you in the friends zone. But it's not something that you want to hide. I typically wait for the woman to ask me if I have any kids, which they'll do early. I've never been asked that on a first date, but usually by the second date, if she likes me a lot. But I don't volunteer that information when I first meet a woman or on the first date. If she hasn't asked after a couple dates then I'll bring it up. I don't want to go to far with a woman with her not knowing that. That's when it can become a real problem.

underrated29
03-04-2011, 11:27 AM
One thing that I recommend is that you keep your dating life and parent life separate. I do that because I don't want to bring women in and out of my son's life, and I don't want a woman thinking that she will have any type of parenting duties when we are simply dating. I don't want a woman thinking that I'm looking for a mother for my child. If I get into a committed relationship, then she'll meet him, but we're not going to be doing a lot of family type outings. If it becomes a serious long term relationship, then I would want her to have a relationship with my son. But for a woman that I'm causally dating, she's not meeting the kid.

I'd suggest that anybody who is single, man or woman, if you're dating a person with a child, and you end up meeting that child early on, or are invited to a family type event early on in the dating process, that's a sign that you're going to be expected to take an active role in the family. If you're looking for a ready made family, then go for it. But if that's not what you're looking for, then I'd say be caution.





Right there with you on that. When I get meet girls there is a good 5 dates (which typically is a few weeks long to a month) before I even think about them meeting the big man.

IMO though its easier to have flings and booty calls then it is a ltr. Not exactly what Im all about but i need to get my freak on every once in a while too..:approve:

And yeah if someone does that right away, I think its because they cant hack it. I will bug out so fast. having the kid there, or family things or whatever.

Requiem
03-04-2011, 11:31 AM
U29, lets get married.

bendog
03-04-2011, 11:31 AM
Guess, I did not make that very clear. I agree with the said above. Where i dont is when you (as a parent or as the single person) expect to have someone else raise their child.

Like me, I know if I do get into something serious with a girl that is long term, first of all, i would be cautious bringing them around my son but if its long term then yeah, in some capacity she would help raise him. But I do not expect her to do anything more in the early phases then she would if there was no child involved, or perhaps a puppy dog involved. Going with us to activities, walks etc. No real parenting.

What I don't understand is this: If I were a single parent, and I married, I would expect the woman to exert a powerful influence on my child. My daughter's nearly an adult, so its different for me now, but if a single parent introduces a spouse into a house with primary school age kids, that spouse will be the primary teacher as to what the child thinks of men/women. I think that's raising a child. Moreover, unless one is independently wealthy, kids are expensive propositions, and the new spouse will end up helping to support the child even if its just driving a not so new car or foregoing entertainment/vacations. To me, that's raising a kid

Requiem
03-04-2011, 11:40 AM
I remember when my dad remarried, I was about 14. He had nicer girlfriends before the woman he eventually married, and the thing that pissed me off about it was that he didn't tell me he was getting married, nor did he invite me to the wedding. He said he didn't tell me and my brother to "protect us."

Protect us from what?

I lost a lot of respect for both my dad and step-mom after that, and though I forgave them, it still is quite upsetting to have had that happen. I didn't ever see a genuine interest in her trying to be a part of my life in the first place.

She always ripped down my art and stuff back in high school. I was obsessed with Slipknot's Iowa for a while and decided to do drawings of all the members based off their inserts from the CD sleeve. Those were taken down, anything else I did too. **** her.

underrated29
03-04-2011, 11:44 AM
U29, lets get married.

Chris I am the Dream to your requiem...How is the kidney?













bendog- if its longterm, short term no way. Plus, my example, my son is 4. not in school yet.

Requiem
03-04-2011, 11:56 AM
They seem to be working fine man. Last check up everything was great, but my cholestorol was high, probably because I've been puffin' heaters like crazy since I've been stressed about not having work, but since that's changed (been working for three weeks) I'm all good. Getting in great shape, mentally feel awesome. Lovin' life. <3

bendog
03-04-2011, 12:05 PM
underdog. Now I understand, and agree. Personally, I'd never remarry if my wife passes on before me. I'd appreciate the peace and quiet.

cmhargrove
03-04-2011, 12:06 PM
Why would you need to submit to anyone or anything? I will just never agree with believing in anything without evidence, to me "faith" is useless.

I understand your point, however I may disagree with it.

But, my point is that if 20 years of successful relationship and a family that I love dearly isn't "evidence," then what is? You have to make these decisions for yourself, i'm not going to argue with you. But i'm a very practical person. I listened to a proposition, I put it to the test, and the proposition was proven true.

Faith starts with trust, and maybe that's what you might look at first.

Jason in LA
03-04-2011, 12:08 PM
I remember when my dad remarried, I was about 14. He had nicer girlfriends before the woman he eventually married, and the thing that pissed me off about it was that he didn't tell me he was getting married, nor did he invite me to the wedding. He said he didn't tell me and my brother to "protect us."

Protect us from what?

I lost a lot of respect for both my dad and step-mom after that, and though I forgave them, it still is quite upsetting to have had that happen. I didn't ever see a genuine interest in her trying to be a part of my life in the first place.

She always ripped down my art and stuff back in high school. I was obsessed with Slipknot's Iowa for a while and decided to do drawings of all the members based off their inserts from the CD sleeve. Those were taken down, anything else I did too. **** her.

Damn that sucks. I guess there are two extremes that are bad. One extreme is the single parent who involves his/her kid(s) early too early in the dating process, and then the parent who does not involve the kid(s) at all.

I wouldn't have a woman in my son's life who isn't going to be around long term, but at the same time, if a woman is going to be around long term, I'd want her to have a good relationship with my son before we got married.

alkemical
03-04-2011, 12:10 PM
I'd like to thank everyone again for their contributions to this conversation.

WolfpackGuy
03-04-2011, 12:11 PM
You will surely find your answer in Myrtle Beach...

Que
03-04-2011, 12:29 PM
This thread is pretty cool. There are some things that make me laugh, cringe, get pissed off. So I threw out my two truths regarding men and women. I'll chime full the full Monty... The Universal Truths of Relationships so Sayeth Que.

Book of Jade
1. Most people in this world are screwed up personality wise
2. The key is recognizing the "bent" from the "broken"
3. Don't waste your time on the broken
4. When you find someone who isn't bent or broken, don't screw him/her up yourself

Book of Amber (on non-broken Women)
1. The key to any relationship (be it seduction, friendship or love) with a woman is her brain. Engage her there first and foremost
2. All non-parental relationships with women are founded on trust. Trust is only built through sharing and time. By sharing I mean conversations and experiences
3. The best way to engage with a woman’s brain is through meaningful conversation. Ideas, thoughts, opinions, hopes, dreams, fears, plans, prior experiences… everything. Through meaningful conversation a woman is able to get a true sense of who you are and equally important, how you relate and react to her
4. If she likes what she sees, she begins to trust you. The more she trusts you the more willing she is to build a relationship
5. Women are like gardens – constant measured attention is FAR better than long periods of neglect followed by copious amounts of fertilizer and water
6. You can’t fake it - Oh sure, you can fake it for short periods of time but the constant attention (see garden) means that eventually she’ll see through your ruse, feel manipulated and all trust will be lost. Revert back to PS 3 and Internet Porn
7. Women like to laugh, smile, feel special, be understood and be loved. Ask yourself, are you behaving in a manner that promotes any of these feelings?
8. Walk the Talk – actions have to match words. In one sense, women are incredibly analytical and are always building predictive models for the people in their lives. They do this by their knowledge of your which is gain, largely, from meaningful conversation. They want to know how you would react to certain situations. If you react differently to what your portray then they conclude you are either lying, or they simply don’t know you. Again, end of trust. Revert back to PS 3 and Internet Porn
9. Single Moms are sacred. Don’t shop lift the pooty
10. Women are far more complex and analytical than men. Fact
11. Women have an emotional memory that is measured in years
12. Women are holistic and interrelated. All aspects of a woman’s life impact the others
13. The most sexual part of a woman’s body is her brain
14. Equity – a sense of equity is very important to women. That doesn’t mean things always have to be fair, or even equal, they just need to be equitable

Book of Iron (on non-broken Men)
1. Don’t try to change us. You’ll be disappointed (see exception – sex)
2. Men have an emotional memory measured in minutes
3. Men have difficulty expressing innermost thoughts and feelings. Don’t expect us to be as open or as eloquent as your girlfriends
4. Most men honestly do not know how to please a woman sexually. Teach them how. However, for every nebulous request such as cuddling or foreplay, also provide at least one mechanical request
5. Men like to solve problems. That is our first reaction to any situation. Don’t hold it against us when we try
6. Men are emotionally single threaded. We don’t experience more than one emotion at a time
7. Right vs. Wrong – a sense of right vs. wrong is very important to men. More so than equity. We are drawn to moral compasses
8. Protective – Men are hardwired to protect what we value. When a man bonds with a woman he will naturally become very protective to any perceived threats. This can manifest itself as stifling but you should translate it as a demonstration that we care
9. Men are compartmentalized – different aspects of our lives can be wholly independent of others
10. Men are not naturally empathetic. We learn empathy by going through similar experiences and relating our directly experiences to others. Best way to engage this is by saying “how would you feel if…”
11. The most sexual part of a man’s body is his penis
12. Men detest betrayal. When it occurs, the reaction is completely external. We don’t question whether we misunderstood someone or whether we caused the betrayal. We only focus on the betrayal itself
13. Actions speak louder than words. In fact, men are comfortable with silence
14. Men are results oriented. The destination is more important than the journey to get there


Bonus Truth: For women, the journey is every bit and sometimes more important that the destination. Meditate on it

Special Limited Time Truth: Yes, this is provided just to members of the Orange Mane. On the whole fairytale vs. whore discussion. Psst... women are sexual beings. If you do a good job building a high degree of trust by following the Book of Amber and address Truth #4 of the Book of Iron, you'd be surprised just how *ahem* creative she can be... in private.

How a woman "checks out" a man: Yes, they check out men just like men do women. They do it all the time. The difference is, a woman checks out a man completely - she literally tries him on like a garment. She thinks about whether he would make a good friend, a good boyfriend, a husband, a confident, how he would look in a suit, would he dance with her, would he hold her hand when walking somewhere, how he would be as a father, how her life would him would be, what similar interests do they have, would he make her laugh, what would he be like in 30 years, what would their kids look like, and yes, how he would be as a lover. It is the whole shebang and it happens all the time. Again, assessment and predictive modeling.

Jason in LA
03-04-2011, 12:30 PM
You will surely find your answer in Myrtle Beach...

Damn, it took 9 pages for somebody to drop Myrtle Beach in here. Fellas, we're slippin'.

While we're at it, don't ever... ever, ever, ever, date a single mom who lets her kids watch Ghostbusters. Bad things will happen.

Miss I.
03-04-2011, 02:04 PM
Damn, it took 9 pages for somebody to drop Myrtle Beach in here. Fellas, we're slippin'.

While we're at it, don't ever... ever, ever, ever, date a single mom who lets her kids watch Ghostbusters. Bad things will happen.

also avoid lobsters, you never know. some of them lobsters really get around.

bronco militia
03-04-2011, 02:07 PM
I'd like to thank everyone again for their contributions to this conversation.

:gripe::redpunch::garcia::moody::moon::punched: 4321~ :bash::gus::cuss:

bronco militia
03-04-2011, 02:09 PM
also avoid lobsters, you never know. some of them lobsters really get around.

what about crabs? can't you get those from toilet seats? :clown:

alkemical
03-04-2011, 02:11 PM
:gripe::redpunch::garcia::moody::moon::punched: :bash::gus::cuss:

Would you please leave my transparent narcissism alone? LOL

alkemical
03-04-2011, 02:11 PM
also avoid lobsters, you never know. some of them lobsters really get around.

Some day Miss I - You and i will share some conversation.

Miss I.
03-04-2011, 02:20 PM
what about crabs? can't you get those from toilet seats? :clown:

don't know, but I did find this....

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3183/2871051481_4207f19751.jpg?v=0

;D

bronco militia
03-04-2011, 02:23 PM
don't know, but I did find this....

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3183/2871051481_4207f19751.jpg?v=0

;D

that is awesome! Ha!

Archer81
03-04-2011, 03:07 PM
I remember when my dad remarried, I was about 14. He had nicer girlfriends before the woman he eventually married, and the thing that pissed me off about it was that he didn't tell me he was getting married, nor did he invite me to the wedding. He said he didn't tell me and my brother to "protect us."

Protect us from what?

I lost a lot of respect for both my dad and step-mom after that, and though I forgave them, it still is quite upsetting to have had that happen. I didn't ever see a genuine interest in her trying to be a part of my life in the first place.

She always ripped down my art and stuff back in high school. I was obsessed with Slipknot's Iowa for a while and decided to do drawings of all the members based off their inserts from the CD sleeve. Those were taken down, anything else I did too. **** her.


My dad did the same thing. My parents divorce was finalized and a few months later my dad married the reason for the divorce. So I pretty much concur with the **** her comment.

:Broncos:

Doggcow
03-04-2011, 03:17 PM
My dad did the same thing. My parents divorce was finalized and a few months later my dad married the reason for the divorce. So I pretty much concur with the **** her comment.

:Broncos:

the reason for the divorce? So he was cheating?

I honestly believe when people cheat, it's almost a mutual thing.

For guys, particularly, it's just about getting our rocks off... For girls, it's emotional (most of the time)... Both parties are lacking something from the other.

But I also agree with **** step-parents.

Archer81
03-04-2011, 03:20 PM
the reason for the divorce? So he was cheating?

I honestly believe when people cheat, it's almost a mutual thing.

For guys, particularly, it's just about getting our rocks off... For girls, it's emotional (most of the time)... Both parties are lacking something from the other.

But I also agree with **** step-parents.


I don't consider my father's wife a parent. I have parents, both of them are awesome seperately. It happened long enough ago that the entire situation doesnt bug me anymore. But if she got hit by a bus I wouldnt shed a tear.

:Broncos:

Doggcow
03-04-2011, 03:23 PM
I don't consider my father's wife a parent. I have parents, both of them are awesome seperately. It happened long enough ago that the entire situation doesnt bug me anymore. But if she got hit by a bus I wouldnt shed a tear.

:Broncos:

I was using parent as a placeholder for wife/husband/mom/dad. In no way referencing their ability to be there for kids, or relevance, btw :P

Bronco Yoda
03-04-2011, 03:25 PM
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vW95YIpC6Rw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Archer81
03-04-2011, 03:25 PM
I was using parent as a placeholder for wife/husband/mom/dad. In no way referencing their ability to be there for kids, or relevance, btw :P


Early on she tried the "call me mom if its easier". I then told her I preferred homewrecking hosebeast. I have not been back to my dad's since.

Memories.

:Broncos:

Jason in LA
03-04-2011, 05:25 PM
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vW95YIpC6Rw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

See, that's why you can't be a coach and hit on the single moms. LOL

Jason in LA
03-04-2011, 05:28 PM
I don't consider my father's wife a parent. I have parents, both of them are awesome seperately. It happened long enough ago that the entire situation doesnt bug me anymore. But if she got hit by a bus I wouldnt shed a tear.

:Broncos:

Damn. That's one reason why I'm thinking that if I ever get married, my son will be grown and out the house. Hopefully that will make a difference.

Blueflame
03-04-2011, 05:52 PM
I'd like some of the women here to get into a little more of the:

"I can change him" mentality.

I'd like to know if this is an inherent woman trait, or more a western trait....

Trying to change the other person is a bad idea. It seldom works, and even if it does, then there's a strong likelihood that they'll resent the idea that they have to change (or do this or that thing differently) just to please someone else. And then who knows what they'll want you to change (fair's fair) to please them?

No one's perfect and the key is finding someone whose faults you can live with.

epicSocialism4tw
03-04-2011, 10:17 PM
Some day Miss I - You and i will share some conversation.

http://media1.break.com/dnet/media/2009/2/99%20How%20to%20Tell%20if%20You%27re%20Creepy.jpg

Doggcow
03-04-2011, 10:58 PM
Trying to change the other person is a bad idea. It seldom works, and even if it does, then there's a strong likelihood that they'll resent the idea that they have to change (or do this or that thing differently) just to please someone else. And then who knows what they'll want you to change (fair's fair) to please them?

No one's perfect and the key is finding someone whose faults you can live with.

I also believe, ignorance is bliss.

My first girlfriend and I, were wonderful, and everything was great, but I moved across the country and it didn't work out.

Now, after dating a lot of other girls, it sucks trying to find a great one, because before, I was happy with what I had, now, with each one, I know what I'm lacking.

All the ones I'd want to marry (because of careers, put together-ness, etc) are fairly lame in bed. While the ones I have no interest in long term, are WAY more fun, and generally not as bright...

Ugh, why can't I just find a nice doctor that's a vixen in the sack? It's bull****.

Blueflame
03-05-2011, 02:10 AM
I also believe, ignorance is bliss.

My first girlfriend and I, were wonderful, and everything was great, but I moved across the country and it didn't work out.

Now, after dating a lot of other girls, it sucks trying to find a great one, because before, I was happy with what I had, now, with each one, I know what I'm lacking.

All the ones I'd want to marry (because of careers, put together-ness, etc) are fairly lame in bed. While the ones I have no interest in long term, are WAY more fun, and generally not as bright...

Ugh, why can't I just find a nice doctor that's a vixen in the sack? It's bull****.

"Lame in bed" is a fixable problem though... if both partners are willing (or able) to communicate the things they like/don't really like as much/wish the other would try, etc. While it's not certain to resolve all compatibility issues, open communication can be a huge asset in many areas of a relationship, including in the bedroom.

Doggcow
03-05-2011, 02:24 AM
"Lame in bed" is a fixable problem though... if both partners are willing (or able) to communicate the things they like/don't really like as much/wish the other would try, etc. While it's not certain to resolve all compatibility issues, open communication can be a huge asset in many areas of a relationship, including in the bedroom.

I tried to fix it for 5 years with a girl... lol

I know it's not always the case. But I'm jaded now too.

So I'm whoring around :P

JJJ
03-05-2011, 02:28 AM
I think men are angry because there is a good chance football season might be canceled.

Blueflame
03-05-2011, 02:54 AM
I tried to fix it for 5 years with a girl... lol

I know it's not always the case. But I'm jaded now too.

So I'm whoring around :P

A lot of relationships do fail because of sexual incompatibility issues... sorry that you couldn't save yours when you'd invested 5 years though.

I think men are angry because there is a good chance football season might be canceled.

More than just a few women are angry about the possibility of the season being canceled too.

Bronco Yoda
03-05-2011, 02:56 AM
You must become one with the La Vagina Monologues my young virgins.

Doggcow
03-05-2011, 03:19 AM
You must become one with the La Vagina Monologues my young virgins.

Lol, naw, I'm playing the brash, uncaring, asshole guy now (because, I wasted so much time, and because I don't care, anymore). It actually works surprisingly well. When I was first on the open market, I was worried about the learning curve, and getting back in the game. However, I've found keeping it simple works exceptionally well.

Step 1: Tell the girl she is pretty
Step 2: Ask her out, something simple like coffee, or drinks (or if you're already at the bar/club, talk for a while, and make sure you're not wasting money if you buy her a drink)
Step 3: ???
Step 4: I don't do sleepovers.

But I'm honest with my girls, that I'm far from interested in anything that lasts longer than an evening.

baja
03-05-2011, 05:37 AM
"Lame in bed" is a fixable problem though... if both partners are willing (or able) to communicate the things they like/don't really like as much/wish the other would try, etc. While it's not certain to resolve all compatibility issues, open communication can be a huge asset in many areas of a relationship, including in the bedroom.

and size matters. ;D

alkemical
03-05-2011, 07:15 AM
Lol, naw, I'm playing the brash, uncaring, a-hole guy now (because, I wasted so much time, and because I don't care, anymore). It actually works surprisingly well. When I was first on the open market, I was worried about the learning curve, and getting back in the game. However, I've found keeping it simple works exceptionally well.

Step 1: Tell the girl she is pretty
Step 2: Ask her out, something simple like coffee, or drinks (or if you're already at the bar/club, talk for a while, and make sure you're not wasting money if you buy her a drink)
Step 3: ???
Step 4: I don't do sleepovers.

But I'm honest with my girls, that I'm far from interested in anything that lasts longer than an evening.

sounds like you are looking for your whore. :op

Doggcow
03-05-2011, 01:04 PM
sounds like you are looking for your whore. :op

Right now I'm just having fun, having new "experiences" if you will...

I'm about to move after college, anyway. So no point in tying myself down to anything that likely won't work.

alkemical
03-08-2011, 02:26 PM
My friend "C" Facebooked me with this concession, her statement:

"I'll be your whore tonight, if you'll be my prince tomorrow"