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Archer81
02-25-2011, 05:30 PM
Tebow didn't win the QB competition in training camp last year but clearly should have been the starter over Orton.


While I share your enthusiasm for Tebow...this sentence makes no ****ing sense. If Orton was good enough to win the job over Tebow and Quinn, the job is his as starter. Just like if Tebow wins it this summer, it will be his and he will be the starter.

Talk sense, man.

:Broncos:

MacGruder
02-25-2011, 05:33 PM
While I share your enthusiasm for Tebow...this sentence makes no ****ing sense. If Orton was good enough to win the job over Tebow and Quinn, the job is his as starter. Just like if Tebow wins it this summer, it will be his and he will be the starter.

Talk sense, man.

:Broncos:

No, because there is no way to legitimately "win" it.. it's like saying that because a player wasn't drafted high they were obviously not a good player. People were WRONG in their evaluation of Orton and Tebow last season. Period.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-25-2011, 05:35 PM
No, because there is no way to legitimately "win" it.. it's like saying that because a player wasn't drafted high they were obviously not a good player. People were WRONG in their evaluation of Orton and Tebow last season. Period.

I bet if you believe really hard in the Tooth Fairy, she'll be real, too.

You are so stupid, it's actually comical at this point.

MacGruder
02-25-2011, 05:38 PM
I bet if you believe really hard in the Tooth Fairy, she'll be real, too.

You are so stupid, it's actually comical at this point.

No.. what is stupid is thinking the best guy in a non contact scrimmage and passing camp is better than a guy who can dominate an actual NFL game physically like Tebow.

People are so brainwashed by NFL BS they can't even see the obvious.. the 2 guys in the Superbowl were nearly carbon copies of Tebow not Orton.. and they were even emulating Tebow's play.. not Orton's fetaling.

TheReverend
02-25-2011, 05:39 PM
Effort, I see. Performance? Not so much. 50% completion percentage and a pick a game, a couple of which were REALLY bad. Not saying Orton is perfect by any means, but if he's so much better than Orton, he should have absolutely no problem taking the job in camp. And if he's head and shoulders above Orton, Fox will play him.

Just don't see the big deal. Still. In February.

He will, and I share your sentiment about this not being a problem.

MacGruder
02-25-2011, 05:45 PM
People have to realize the world is FULL of guys that can shoot like Larry Bird in practice.. but the world is completely lacking of guys that can shoot like Bird when it really matters..

They even mentioned something about it in a game.. one of the analysts said he was talking to McCoy.. and Tebow had missed several practice attempts of a some deep pass. Tebow told McCoy "don't worry coach, Ill hit it in the game".. and he did..

Orton is the complete opposite.. he is the guy hitting those passes in scrimmages and preseason and early in games but falling apart when it matters most..

Fool's gold.

bowtown
02-25-2011, 05:47 PM
People have to realize the world is FULL of guys that can shoot like Larry Bird in practice.. but the world is completely lacking of guys that can shoot like Bird when it really matters..

They even mentioned something about it in a game.. one of the analysts said he was talking to McCoy.. and Tebow had missed several practice attempts of a some deep pass. Tebow told McCoy "don't worry coach, Ill hit it in the game".. and he did..

Orton is the complete opposite.. he is the guy hitting those passes in scrimmages and preseason and early in games but falling apart when it matters most..

Fool's gold.

You really say some stupid ****.

MacGruder
02-25-2011, 05:49 PM
You really say some stupid ****.

You are really obtuse...

orange 4 life
02-25-2011, 05:57 PM
Don't have time to read through this thread right now (though I'm curious to see what's been said) but in short let me just say this:

Good news.
The more I see and hear about Tebow the more I like the young man but the bottom line is even after the incredible amount of work he did he's still nowhere near being ready to be a starting qb. Not sure if he ever will be.

Obviously people will disagree with these statements but IMHO Tebow is a bigger Jake Plummer but WITHOUT Plummer's uncanny throwing accuracy when on the run.
In other words I feel like best case scenario Tebow will eventually turn into a solid if unspectacular QB.
And being that we already HAVE a solid top ten guy (top 15 even according to his detractors) I just can't see the rationale behind enduring the growing pains that would be needed to get Tebow to a place where Orton already is.

If you think Tebow will eventually be a top tier guy then let's just agree to disagree because I don't see it happening. Quite simply the throwing accuracy just isn't there.

Blueflame
02-25-2011, 06:08 PM
No.. what is stupid is thinking the best guy in a non contact scrimmage and passing camp is better than a guy who can dominate an actual NFL game physically like Tebow.

People are so brainwashed by NFL BS they can't even see the obvious.. the 2 guys in the Superbowl were nearly carbon copies of Tebow not Orton.. and they were even emulating Tebow's play.. not Orton's fetaling.

The 2 guys in the Super Bowl had a lot more on their minds than "emulating Tim Tebow". ::) In fact, since both of those guys (now) have SB rings, it's more accurate to say that Tebow would be well-advised to try to emulate them.

orange 4 life
02-25-2011, 06:14 PM
And at risk of going down the Plummer rabbit hole again I must say I find the fan support for Tebow (and arguments made to support him) to be VERY ironic.

When we had Griese the masses said we needed someone who could run.
When we had Plummer the masses said we need someone who can be a pocket passer.
And now that we have a VERY accurate pocket passer the same people want someone that can run.

The most ironic part though is that SO MANY people bashed Plummer for being an accurate passer on the move but not in the pocket. That was the reason used to justify the (incredibly poor) decision to draft Cantler and run Plummer out of town.
Now we have these same people saying that Tebow's heart, leadership, and legs can compensate for his lack of accuracy.
The same arguments used to attack Plummer are now being turned around as a defense for Tebow. And like I said before Tebow doesn't even have Plummer's amazing accuracy on the move so it's not just an issue of throwing from the pocket.

Bottom line is I just want the QB carousel to end. Those here that know me know that's how I've felt for the last decade.
When we replaced Griese with Plummer I said within 3 years everyone would jump off Plummer's bandwagon because he's no Elway.
When Cantler replaced Plummer I said his attitude would have people turning on him within a few years.
Now Orton is getting tossed aside because Tebow is the next great thing.
And of course my biggest fear is that if Tebow does take over the job at some point (and ends up being a solid 2nd tier qb) then within a few years HE'LL get run out of town for whoever people think is the next great qb at that time.

At some point I just want our city and fans to get firmly behind our QB and STAY THERE even through some tough times.
Players like Elway (or currently Manning, Brady, etc.) come along SO infrequently that instead of chasing the HOF QB it would be awesome if we could just support the guy we DO have and put some better players around him.

Jake

orange 4 life
02-25-2011, 06:19 PM
People are so brainwashed by NFL BS they can't even see the obvious.. the 2 guys in the Superbowl were nearly carbon copies of Tebow not Orton.. and they were even emulating Tebow's play.. not Orton's fetaling.

Hilarious.
When you all ran Plummer out of town it was because "the qb's that win superbowls are pocket passers" and now you same people are trying to say the opposite.
Look there are elite qb's that are mobile and others that aren't. You can win with either.

Also I'm curious as to how you figure Tebow can "dominate at an NFL level?"

No one hopes that's true more than me but we've seen NOTHING to tell us that he can be a solid starter let alone someone that can dominate.

bowtown
02-25-2011, 06:21 PM
Hilarious.
When you all ran Plummer out of town it was because "the qb's that win superbowls are pocket passers" and now you same people are trying to say the opposite.
Look there are elite qb's that are mobile and others that aren't. You can win with either.

Also I'm curious as to how you figure Tebow can "dominate at an NFL level?"

No one hopes that's true more than me but we've seen NOTHING to tell us that he can be a solid starter let alone someone that can dominate.

Now you've done it.

TailgateNut
02-25-2011, 06:25 PM
And at risk of going down the Plummer rabbit hole again I must say I find the fan support for Tebow (and arguments made to support him) to be VERY ironic.

When we had Griese the masses said we needed someone who could run.
When we had Plummer the masses said we need someone who can be a pocket passer.
And now that we have a VERY accurate pocket passer the same people want someone that can run.

The most ironic part though is that SO MANY people bashed Plummer for being an accurate passer on the move but not in the pocket. That was the reason used to justify the (incredibly poor) decision to draft Cantler and run Plummer out of town.
Now we have these same people saying that Tebow's heart, leadership, and legs can compensate for his lack of accuracy.
The same arguments used to attack Plummer are now being turned around as a defense for Tebow. And like I said before Tebow doesn't even have Plummer's amazing accuracy on the move so it's not just an issue of throwing from the pocket.

Bottom line is I just want the QB carousel to end. Those here that know me know that's how I've felt for the last decade.
When we replaced Griese with Plummer I said within 3 years everyone would jump off Plummer's bandwagon because he's no Elway.
When Cantler replaced Plummer I said his attitude would have people turning on him within a few years.
Now Orton is getting tossed aside because Tebow is the next great thing.
And of course my biggest fear is that if Tebow does take over the job at some point (and ends up being a solid 2nd tier qb) then within a few years HE'LL get run out of town for whoever people think is the next great qb at that time.

At some point I just want our city and fans to get firmly behind our QB and STAY THERE even through some tough times.
Players like Elway (or currently Manning, Brady, etc.) come along SO infrequently that instead of chasing the HOF QB it would be awesome if we could just support the guy we DO have and put some better players around him.

Jake
:thumbsup:

But "THEY KNOW of his AWESOMENESS" because they have seen Tebow play in meaninless games and he can run.:spit:

DrFate
02-25-2011, 06:26 PM
Orange 4 Life - you make a couple good points, but your comment of 'Orton is avery accurate passer' is off the mark. Given lots of time, every QB in the league is accurate. Nothing about Orton makes him special. That's why they try to replace him everywhere he's played.

The wheat/separates from the chaff when there is pressure, on 3rd down, and in the red zone. It's about making plays - Orton doesn't and never has.

MacGruder
02-25-2011, 06:41 PM
Hilarious.
When you all ran Plummer out of town it was because "the qb's that win superbowls are pocket passers" and now you same people are trying to say the opposite.
Look there are elite qb's that are mobile and others that aren't. You can win with either.

Also I'm curious as to how you figure Tebow can "dominate at an NFL level?"

No one hopes that's true more than me but we've seen NOTHING to tell us that he can be a solid starter let alone someone that can dominate.

You've seen nothing to tell you he can be a solid starter? He played the best of any rookie QBs in his first 3 games.. including rookie of the year Sam Bradford.

If a guy like Vick can dominate the NFL and Vince Young can play so well.. then why can't Tebow do the same playing his style?

I think it must be racial. Tebow is disregarded as a running QB the way many black QBs are disregarded as pocket QBs. Stereotyping.

Tebow IS Ben Roethlisberger and Aaron Rodgers but a much more talented athletic and durable runner.

TheReverend
02-25-2011, 06:42 PM
:thumbsup:

But "THEY KNOW of his AWESOMENESS" because they have seen Tebow play in meaninless games and he can run.:spit:

Define "meaningless games"?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-25-2011, 06:43 PM
He will, and I share your sentiment about this not being a problem.

I sincerely hope you're right. We used a first round pick on him. I want him to turn out to be a hall of famer.

I have my doubts, but if he wins the job in camp, I have no problem with him as the starter for the Denver Broncos.

MacGruder
02-25-2011, 06:58 PM
I sincerely hope you're right. We used a first round pick on him. I want him to turn out to be a hall of famer.

I have my doubts, but if he wins the job in camp, I have no problem with him as the starter for the Denver Broncos.

He should have lost the starter job after seeing his actual game play.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-25-2011, 07:04 PM
He should have lost the starter job after seeing his actual game play.

Except that Tebow may not have been ready, and may still not be ready.

His actual game play was actually pretty ****ing impressive. You know, to those who actually know about football. If he'd had a running game or a defense, last season would have turned out differently.

But by all means, keep screaming the same nonsense into the echo chamber that is your colon; with your head buried that far up your own ass, there can't be much else to do.

MacGruder
02-25-2011, 07:18 PM
Except that Tebow may not have been ready, and may still not be ready.

His actual game play was actually pretty ****ing impressive. You know, to those who actually know about football. If he'd had a running game or a defense, last season would have turned out differently.

But by all means, keep screaming the same nonsense into the echo chamber that is your colon; with your head buried that far up your own ass, there can't be much else to do.

Orton was the beneficiary of a loaded offenses with a genius running it.. this Broncos team was built for he offense to carry them, not the D. That is why Orton looked so good overall.. and his lack of ability and intangibles is why he couldn't fulfill his role. A role Tebow showed he was much more capable of filling even with no preparation or game experience. Though really that is inaccurate.. because the SEC is the best place to prepare for the NFL.. guys like Orton missed out on that and pay their whole careers for it.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-25-2011, 07:21 PM
Orton was the beneficiary of a loaded offenses with a genius running it.. this Broncos team was built for he offense to carry them, not the D. That is why Orton looked so good overall.. and his lack of ability and intangibles is why he couldn't fulfill his role. A role Tebow showed he was much more capable of filling even with no preparation or game experience. Though really that is inaccurate.. because the SEC is the best place to prepare for the NFL.. guys like Orton missed out on that and pay their whole careers for it.

Yeah, Tom Brady sure is missing that SEC experience. Same with Drew Brees.

But that JaMarcus Russell sure was prepared! SEC Experience!

Just stop. Please.

TheReverend
02-25-2011, 07:23 PM
Yeah, Tom Brady sure is missing that SEC experience. Same with Drew Brees.

But that JaMarcus Russell sure was prepared! SEC Experience!

Just stop. Please.

Well... as a Big 10 fan... I'll still admit he's right.

Also, as for your examples, Tom and Drew took time to develop into what they are today.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-25-2011, 07:27 PM
Well... as a Big 10 fan... I'll still admit he's right.

Also, as for your examples, Tom and Drew took time to develop into what they are today.

Like most quarterbacks, they took time, yes.

SEC is great football, that's for sure. But come the **** on. It is not a guarantee of success at the quarterback position. A lot still has to go right for them to develop properly into a legitimate, regular pro bowler.

MacGruder
02-25-2011, 07:34 PM
Like most quarterbacks, they took time, yes.

SEC is great football, that's for sure. But come the **** on. It is not a guarantee of success at the quarterback position. A lot still has to go right for them to develop properly into a legitimate, regular pro bowler.


I didn't say it was a guarantee.. you have to have the drive, intangibles and tangibles.. Tebow has everything you could want as a player. People doubting Tebow is the perfect example of looking a gift horse in the mouth..

And Orton is the perfect example for fool's gold. He even looks like a he pans for gold.. :wiggle:

TheReverend
02-25-2011, 07:55 PM
Like most quarterbacks, they took time, yes.

SEC is great football, that's for sure. But come the **** on. It is not a guarantee of success at the quarterback position. A lot still has to go right for them to develop properly into a legitimate, regular pro bowler.

I see your POV on it too.

I regretfully agree with:

because the SEC is the best place to prepare for the NFL..

I vehemently disagree with:

guys like Orton missed out on that and pay their whole careers for it.

TailgateNut
02-25-2011, 07:57 PM
You've seen nothing to tell you he can be a solid starter? He played the best of any rookie QBs in his first 3 games.. including rookie of the year Sam Bradford.

If a guy like Vick can dominate the NFL and Vince Young can play so well.. then why can't Tebow do the same playing his style?

I think it must be racial. Tebow is disregarded as a running QB the way many black QBs are disregarded as pocket QBs. Stereotyping.

Tebow IS Ben Roethlisberger and Aaron Rodgers but a much more talented athletic and durable runner.

:spit:

oubronco
02-25-2011, 08:02 PM
Tebow IS Ben Roethlisberger and Aaron Rodgers but a much more talented athletic and durable runner.

Really? I mean Really? After he played in 3 games he's as good as Rodgers? Seriously you need to put the pipe down...........DAMN

TailgateNut
02-25-2011, 08:03 PM
Define "meaningless games"?

Meaningless- as in, doesn't mean squat when you don't have a chance in hell to advance into the post season.
Meaningless- as in, "Let's give the rook some reps because the fans are restless".
Meaningless- as in let's just see what we have.

Look, PatCo was under pressure, and although you may regurgitate his SOP statement of I stand behind my coach/ player, I'd bet my left nut that the not so subtle hint that Tewbow would start the rest of the season because the no-show numbers were increasing weekly.

Meaninless- as in nothing to loose.

TailgateNut
02-25-2011, 08:06 PM
No.. what is stupid is thinking the best guy in a non contact scrimmage and passing camp is better than a guy who can dominate an actual NFL game physically like Tebow.

People are so brainwashed by NFL BS they can't even see the obvious.. the 2 guys in the Superbowl were nearly carbon copies of Tebow not Orton.. and they were even emulating Tebow's play.. not Orton's fetaling.


Gezus ****ing chrysantemum. You are delusional.

oubronco
02-25-2011, 08:07 PM
Gezus ****ing chrysantemum. You are delusional.

He must be Tebows personal knob washer

TheReverend
02-25-2011, 08:11 PM
Meaningless- as in, doesn't mean squat when you don't have a chance in hell to advance into the post season.
Meaningless- as in, "Let's give the rook some reps because the fans are restless".
Meaningless- as in let's just see what we have.

Look, PatCo was under pressure, and although you may regurgitate his SOP statement of I stand behind my coach/ player, I'd bet my left nut that the not so subtle hint that Tewbow would start the rest of the season because the no-show numbers were increasing weekly.

Meaninless- as in nothing to loose.

So Orton hasn't performed in a "meaningful" game either?

Personally, I'd call division rival games against SD, and ESPECIALLY Oakland in the blackhole "meaningful"... but whatever.

TailgateNut
02-25-2011, 08:13 PM
He must be Tebows personal knob washer

He reminds me of the woman who sat in the seats next to mine last season when they put Tebow in. I thought she was going to cream in her jeans.

She kept screaming and yelping when we had the ball, and I finally asked her "why don't you shut up when were on offense"?

Her reply, and I kid you not, was "but I'm sooo EXCITED"

It's the WTF factor of fandom.

TailgateNut
02-25-2011, 08:20 PM
So Orton hasn't performed in a "meaningful" game either?

Personally, I'd call division rival games against SD, and ESPECIALLY Oakland in the blackhole "meaningful"... but whatever.

Oh, give me a break.

Last year was like no other season I've experienced at Mile High or at the New Dump, and I've been going for a long damn time. I haven't missed a game in over a decade, but the Tebownites make me want to give it up.
Just like the ****lerites after his exodus.

I can only imagine the number of mental suicides that would occur if we sent Tebow packing.


Let the kid play if he earns the spot.
If he doesn't, make him warm the bench.

Either way don't drool on my shoulder at the game. This isn't a Beatles concert!

TheReverend
02-25-2011, 08:22 PM
Oh, give me a break.

Last year was like no other season I've experienced at Mile High or at the New Dump, and I've been going for a long damn time. I haven't missed a game in over a decade, but the Tebownites make me want to give it up.
Just like the ****lerites after his exodus.

I can only imagine the number of mental suicides that would occur if we sent Tebow packing.


Let the kid play if he earns the spot.
If he doesn't, make him warm the bench.

Either way don't drool on my shoulder at the game. This isn't a Beatles concert!

No one's claiming otherwise... you're just completely ridiculous about this whole thing.

You called his game against division rivals "meaningless"
You criticize him because he hasn't earned it, but were the Chief of Fan Police for McDaniels THROUGH controversy.

I share a lot of your sentiment towards religion, but you're a ****ing buffoon dude.

TailgateNut
02-25-2011, 08:29 PM
No one's claiming otherwise... you're just completely ridiculous about this whole thing.

You called his game against division rivals "meaningless"
You criticize him because he hasn't earned it, but were the Chief of Fan Police for McDaniels THROUGH controversy.

I share a lot of your sentiment towards religion, but you're a ****ing buffoon dude.


Where have you been for the last year?

Speaking of Buffoons.

Half of the Bronco faithful annointed little Jesus as the next coming of Elway, and then add in the cult following from Florida and it became a ****ing circus.

TheReverend
02-25-2011, 08:37 PM
Where have you been for the last year?

Speaking of Buffoons.

Half of the Bronco faithful annointed little Jesus as the next coming of Elway, and then add in the cult following from Florida and it became a ****ing circus.

So you feel the fan base was fine as was and new support is more irritating to you than it's worth for the Broncos?

MacGruder
02-25-2011, 08:37 PM
Really? I mean Really? After he played in 3 games he's as good as Rodgers? Seriously you need to put the pipe down...........DAMN

Um.. they all played in college didn't they? You think BigBen and Rodgers weren't trying or something>

WTF do you think they play for?

At the same stage you can't deny he is better and more talented.. did those guys set records in their first starts?

Does it only count when they decide to accomplish something and not Tebow? SMH

TheReverend
02-25-2011, 08:41 PM
Um.. they all played in college didn't they? You think BigBen and Rodgers weren't trying or something>

WTF do you think they play for?

At the same stage you can't deny he is better and more talented.. did those guys set records in their first starts?

Does it only count when they decide to accomplish something and not Tebow? SMH

Black guy? (not that it matters, just only have seen them use that)

MacGruder
02-25-2011, 08:42 PM
Black guy? (not that it matters, just only have seen them use that)

Just from the waist down..

OABB
02-25-2011, 11:50 PM
Oh, give me a break.

Last year was like no other season I've experienced at Mile High or at the New Dump, and I've been going for a long damn time. I haven't missed a game in over a decade, but the Tebownites make me want to give it up.
Just like the ****lerites after his exodus.

I can only imagine the number of mental suicides that would occur if we sent Tebow packing.


Let the kid play if he earns the spot.
If he doesn't, make him warm the bench.

Either way don't drool on my shoulder at the game. This isn't a Beatles concert!

you sound like blueflame during her mcd patriot rants. It's so annoyingly transparant.

Blueflame
02-26-2011, 02:06 AM
you sound like blueflame during her mcd patriot rants. It's so annoyingly transparant.

Um... I happened to be right about McDaniels. He was an unmitigated disaster as the Broncos' HC.

Bronco Vixen
02-26-2011, 09:12 AM
The only reasonable explanation for the timing of an announcement like this now is clearly a strategic one (i.e., trade value, keeping everyone happy etc.) as has been stated.

HOWEVER - and it kills me to acknowledge this, admittedly being - as you all have so affectionately have termed - a gigantic Tebow "nut-hugger," there is absolutely not uniform support for/confidence in Tebow within the organization - starting, most importantly, with Johnny boy himself.

If you think for a second that Elway's not of the camp that mechanics, accuracy, & delivery make an elite NFL QB (the essence of his own identity), then you are foolish. There is no question in my mind that John et al., ultimately have their sights on Luck and will skeptically entertain the Tebow experiment, because they currently have no choice in the matter.

My only hope is that they will truly give him a fair shot - why wouldn't they, right? They have nothing to lose.

Cito Pelon
02-26-2011, 09:17 AM
Don't have time to read through this thread right now (though I'm curious to see what's been said) but in short let me just say this:

Good news.
The more I see and hear about Tebow the more I like the young man but the bottom line is even after the incredible amount of work he did he's still nowhere near being ready to be a starting qb. Not sure if he ever will be.

Obviously people will disagree with these statements but IMHO Tebow is a bigger Jake Plummer but WITHOUT Plummer's uncanny throwing accuracy when on the run.
In other words I feel like best case scenario Tebow will eventually turn into a solid if unspectacular QB.
And being that we already HAVE a solid top ten guy (top 15 even according to his detractors) I just can't see the rationale behind enduring the growing pains that would be needed to get Tebow to a place where Orton already is.

If you think Tebow will eventually be a top tier guy then let's just agree to disagree because I don't see it happening. Quite simply the throwing accuracy just isn't there.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because I've seen Tebow throw many very accurate passes. I've seen him throw accurate slants, accurate outs, accurate posts, accurate go's, accurate crossing patterns. He has very nice accuracy deep on the sideline, placing the ball consistently about 1 yd inside the sideline with good velocity and a nice spiral.

I feel pretty confident about Tebow's ability to win games with his arm.

Dude, John Elway was a 56.9% passer for his career.
Tarkenton, 57%
Staubach, 57%

Tebow was a rookie, he'll be fine in the passing game.

Cito Pelon
02-26-2011, 09:33 AM
Orange 4 Life - you make a couple good points, but your comment of 'Orton is avery accurate passer' is off the mark. Given lots of time, every QB in the league is accurate. Nothing about Orton makes him special. That's why they try to replace him everywhere he's played.

The wheat/separates from the chaff when there is pressure, on 3rd down, and in the red zone. It's about making plays - Orton doesn't and never has.

That's pretty much the bottom line.

I like quite a few things about Orton, I've defended him against some strong critics because he IS a legit NFL starter, he's proven that.

However, he's the type of QB that you're always gonna be looking to upgrade from. The 'it' factor just isn't there.

schaaf
02-26-2011, 11:11 AM
I'm Gumby Damnit

MacGruder
02-26-2011, 11:29 AM
Um... I happened to be right about McDaniels. He was an unmitigated disaster as the Broncos' HC.

Was McD a disaster or was he put in a no-win situation by being handed a disaster.. with Cutler and Bmarsh? He gets the blame for problems these guys created.

The whole reason McD likely even got his shot is because no one else wanted that job..

MacGruder
02-26-2011, 11:30 AM
The only reasonable explanation for the timing of an announcement like this now is clearly a strategic one (i.e., trade value, keeping everyone happy etc.) as has been stated.

HOWEVER - and it kills me to acknowledge this, admittedly being - as you all have so affectionately have termed - a gigantic Tebow "nut-hugger," there is absolutely not uniform support for/confidence in Tebow within the organization - starting, most importantly, with Johnny boy himself.

Are you basing this on anything tangible or just reading the tea leaves? Not knocking you, just curious..

CEH
02-26-2011, 11:35 AM
Was McD a disaster or was he put in a no-win situation by being handed a disaster.. with Cutler and Bmarsh? He gets the blame for problems these guys created.

The whole reason McD likely even got his shot is because no one else wanted that job..

Please Bill Cowher went on TV and said the Denver job was the cream of the crop. Young talent loaded on offense and an owner willing to win

Things would look a whole lot different had Denver actually spent time with guys like Spags instead of a quick bite to eat so they could move on to Josh

Play2win
02-26-2011, 11:43 AM
Please Bill Cowher went on TV and said the Denver job was the cream of the crop. Young talent loaded on offense and an owner willing to win

Things would look a whole lot different had Denver actually spent time with guys like Spags instead of a quick bite to eat so they could move on to Josh

I think in the long run, a lot of people are going to be happy with the way things turn out. I think FOX is the perfect man for the job, regardless of what ever happened before. I hope that FOX becomes and institution in Denver, and is the Man there for many, many years.

OABB
02-26-2011, 11:56 AM
Um... I happened to be right about McDaniels. He was an unmitigated disaster as the Broncos' HC.

That's like saying the guy you stalked was very attractive. Crazy is still crazy.

errand
02-26-2011, 12:09 PM
Orton is the kind of QB a defensive coach likes. That being said, it seems Fox hasn't finished watching all of this years game tape. He will change his mind when he gets to the last few games and sees that Tebow clearly out played Orton even though he was a rookie getting backup reps.

Really though, nothing they say right now means much. They could be looking to trade Orton. You don't get max value by saying he was clearly beat by an unpolished rookie and won't play for you again.

What is it about you clowns?

What's he gonna see when he looks at the tapes of the last three games? A Tebow led comeback against arguably one of the worst secondaries in the NFL and two huge losses. He'll see a rookie QB that while physically elite is not mentally elite right now as far as grasp of the offense, who took off running if option #1 wasn't open immediately. What he'll see is a young QB that may or may not be the future....but has upside.

What he'll see in Orton is a pretty good QB that can probably win alot of games if he's supported by a solid running game and a decent defense that doesn't give it up like they're Suzie Rottencrotch. He'll see a QB that has proven he can quickly pick up a complex offense and perform well running it.

And what makes you so freaking sure that he's trying to deal Orton? He's not married to Tebow, and Orton has played well for the most part his entire Broncos career. And who knows...he might not get rid of either of them. Orton for all his faults wouldn't be like turning to the clown car should Tebow go down...he could come in and actually win us a few games if the need arises.

OABB
02-26-2011, 12:11 PM
What is it about you clowns?

What's he gonna see when he looks at the tapes of the last three games? A Tebow led comeback against arguably one of the worst secondaries in the NFL and two huge losses. He'll see a rookie QB that while physically elite is not mentally elite right now as far as grasp of the offense, who took off running if option #1 wasn't open immediately. What he'll see is a young QB that may or may not be the future....but has upside.

What he'll see in Orton is a pretty good QB that can probably win alot of games if he's supported by a solid running game and a decent defense that doesn't give it up like they're Suzie Rottencrotch. He'll see a QB that has proven he can quickly pick up a complex offense and perform well running it.

And what makes you so freaking sure that he's trying to deal Orton? He's not married to Tebow, and Orton has played well for the most part his entire Broncos career. And who knows...he might not get rid of either of them. Orton for all his faults wouldn't be like turning to the clown car should Tebow go down...he could come in and actually win us a few games if the need arises.

maybe he will see that even with rookie mistakes, tebow led the offense to more points than orton? I don't know.

MacGruder
02-26-2011, 12:21 PM
Please Bill Cowher went on TV and said the Denver job was the cream of the crop. Young talent loaded on offense and an owner willing to win

Things would look a whole lot different had Denver actually spent time with guys like Spags instead of a quick bite to eat so they could move on to Josh

So why would they take someone so young, unproven and inexperienced in Josh in the first place?

MacGruder
02-26-2011, 12:27 PM
What is it about you clowns?

What's he gonna see when he looks at the tapes of the last three games? A Tebow led comeback against arguably one of the worst secondaries in the NFL and two huge losses.

Tebow beat a much more experienced QB on a better team with a better running game. And he did it in the worst situation imaginable. Meanwhile Orton was horrifically blown out by the Cardinals who basically had a guy off the street at QB..

Tebow even played the Raiders far far far better on the road in his first start with no prep than Orton did at home even with McD who is an offensive genius..

strafen
02-26-2011, 12:38 PM
I'll take my chances with Tebow.
We already know what we get from Orton, and it's nothing to brag about.
Why put Orton in when we know we're going to be somewhat limited offensively?

With Tebow you'd only need a good running game, with Orton you'd need a top running game.
Same thing with the defense. Tebow would need a good/decent defense ranked ~14-17th. With Orton you would need a top-5 defense.

So Tebow gives us the best chance at having an all-around great team with lots of room to grow everywhere...

Putting Tebow in gives a better chance at winning in more ways than one; passing, running, extending plays, making plays on busted plays, etc...IMO.

I don't know why anybody wouldn't want to have that player...

Dedhed
02-26-2011, 12:41 PM
This is all CBA driven semantic hedging at this point and nothing more. If the CBA doesn't get done in a timely fashion we're pretty much stuck with Orton.

The fact that we don't have a new CBA dictates that we pretty much have to say what is being said regarding Orton.

When a CBA does get done, an ice cube on a July sidewalk will last longer than Orton in Denver.

2KBack
02-26-2011, 01:30 PM
maybe he will see that even with rookie mistakes, tebow led the offense to more points than orton? I don't know.

Sample size, Sample Size, Sample Size

Tebow did okay the last three games, the offense averaged 22.2 points. There are three game stretches during the season where the Orton led offense averaged 23.1 and 29.2. It is practically meaningless, 3 games is not enough to prove anything.

Blueflame
02-26-2011, 01:36 PM
Was McD a disaster or was he put in a no-win situation by being handed a disaster.. with Cutler and Bmarsh? He gets the blame for problems these guys created.

The whole reason McD likely even got his shot is because no one else wanted that job..

McDaniels was an unmitigated disaster. While he may work into being ready for a HC job (with the help of a genuine GM), he was nowhere near ready.

And it's just plain stupid to suggest that no one but McDaniels wanted the HC job in Denver (shows you weren't paying attention back then because Tebow wasn't yet a Bronco).

TheReverend
02-26-2011, 01:39 PM
What is it about you clowns?

What's he gonna see when he looks at the tapes of the last three games? A Tebow led comeback against arguably one of the worst secondaries in the NFL and two huge losses. He'll see a rookie QB that while physically elite is not mentally elite right now as far as grasp of the offense, who took off running if option #1 wasn't open immediately. What he'll see is a young QB that may or may not be the future....but has upside.

What he'll see in Orton is a pretty good QB that can probably win alot of games if he's supported by a solid running game and a decent defense that doesn't give it up like they're Suzie Rottencrotch. He'll see a QB that has proven he can quickly pick up a complex offense and perform well running it.

And what makes you so freaking sure that he's trying to deal Orton? He's not married to Tebow, and Orton has played well for the most part his entire Broncos career. And who knows...he might not get rid of either of them. Orton for all his faults wouldn't be like turning to the clown car should Tebow go down...he could come in and actually win us a few games if the need arises.

Two huge losses?

16 and 5 points... facing the #2 (on the road in one of, if not the, most hostile stadiums in the league) and #1 pass defenses in the NFL, respectively.

And if that's what he sees, what is he going to see when he watches Orton lose by 45 (at HOME) and 21 to those same teams?

MacGruder
02-26-2011, 01:42 PM
McDaniels was an unmitigated disaster. While he may work into being ready for a HC job (with the help of a genuine GM), he was nowhere near ready.

And it's just plain stupid to suggest that no one but McDaniels wanted the HC job in Denver (shows you weren't paying attention back then because Tebow wasn't yet a Bronco).

So then why was an unproven inexperienced coach given the job then.. if it was so desirable?

McD didn't even want Cutler as his QB.. if the job was so desirable don't you think they would bring in a coach that wanted the QB?

Nice budding witch hunt you've got going on there by the way..

Blueflame
02-26-2011, 01:44 PM
That's like saying the guy you stalked was very attractive. Crazy is still crazy.

It's nothing like that but whatever floats your boat. It has to hurt to have to admit that you were so wrong about the guy 'cause you (and others) were pretty heavily "invested".

OABB
02-26-2011, 01:45 PM
Two huge losses?

16 and 5 points... facing the #2 (on the road in one of, if not the, most hostile stadiums in the league) and #1 pass defenses in the NFL, respectively.

And if that's what he sees, what is he going to see when he watches Orton lose by 45 (at HOME) and 21 to those same teams?

There isn't anything else to say. This and this again. I can understand not crowning tebow at this point, but I just can't get my head around thinking tebow isn't good or hasn't shown that he is the better option when all is considered.

It's only bias from some morons here that don't see it. Will tebow be great? Who knows? But he is already better than orton.


Absolute frustrating.

Blueflame
02-26-2011, 01:47 PM
So why would they take someone so young, unproven and inexperienced in Josh in the first place?

Simple. They gambled and lost.

OABB
02-26-2011, 01:48 PM
It's nothing like that but whatever floats your boat. It has to hurt to have to admit that you were so wrong about the guy 'cause you (and others) were pretty heavily "invested".

Not at all. I mean I'm a bronco fan and I don't like to lose. Bu my ego isn't so fragile. I am fine with being wrong. It happens to everyone.

What I have a problem with is dishonesty. I am upfront right or wrong. When I am biased I admit it.

You were absurd and it was painfully obvious to all of us. Even to you. It was pure patriot hate and bias and you never gave him a shot because you had a sandy vagina. You probably have glass in there by now.
Own up to it. I did.

bpc
02-26-2011, 01:55 PM
Fox is a smart man. The position/situation is dysfunctional. Tebow was elevated to starter, clearly isn't totally ready to read defenses and throw passes in the NFL. Orton is pissed that he isn't the starter, is getting restless, rumors about that he's looking to move on or wants to be traded.

How do you get the most out of the situation? Flip the position on it's ear. Tell Orton he's the starter. Boom. He's happy. He's working hard. I don't think anybody will say that Orton isn't a grinder on and off the field. I think he works hard. We now have a backup plan.

Tebow was already going to work hard, now he feels like he has to prove himself ALL over again. He's going to work ten times harder to take the starting gig back.

Everybody knows that starting QB decisions aren't made until the preseason games start. The competition is going to take place NOW until the end of August. That's a great things for Bronco fans. Competition begets better play and more likely'hood that we have solid QB play in 2011. I think thus far, the FO and coaching staff are pushing all the right buttons.

Bronco Vixen
02-26-2011, 02:06 PM
Are you basing this on anything tangible or just reading the tea leaves? Not knocking you, just curious..

Nothing tangible. Just a hearsay convo b/t Elway & an acquaintance at a recent fundraiser dinner during which John allegedly said within a couple of minutes of small talk, "we gotta find a quarterback." He went on to say, that Tebow just doesn't have the accuracy and delivery, and that in the NFL just wanting to be the best and working hard isn't enough - especially at QB. You either have it or you don't.

Of course it is John Elway we are talking about so I am sure he had tossed a few back.

I know I'll get flamed for this "ligthrail rumor blah-di-blah blah" post. I just found it a little disconcerting.

CEH
02-26-2011, 02:13 PM
So why would they take someone so young, unproven and inexperienced in Josh in the first place?

Becuase we had a COO in charge not a football guy
Who was the last person to interview Josh. Ellis.
Who didn't want Mcd. Jim Goodman

Who is now currently incharge. A football guy

jhns
02-26-2011, 02:41 PM
What is it about you clowns?

What's he gonna see when he looks at the tapes of the last three games? A Tebow led comeback against arguably one of the worst secondaries in the NFL and two huge losses. He'll see a rookie QB that while physically elite is not mentally elite right now as far as grasp of the offense, who took off running if option #1 wasn't open immediately. What he'll see is a young QB that may or may not be the future....but has upside.

What he'll see in Orton is a pretty good QB that can probably win alot of games if he's supported by a solid running game and a decent defense that doesn't give it up like they're Suzie Rottencrotch. He'll see a QB that has proven he can quickly pick up a complex offense and perform well running it.

And what makes you so freaking sure that he's trying to deal Orton? He's not married to Tebow, and Orton has played well for the most part his entire Broncos career. And who knows...he might not get rid of either of them. Orton for all his faults wouldn't be like turning to the clown car should Tebow go down...he could come in and actually win us a few games if the need arises.

Tebow was a rookie last season. Tebow outplayed Orton in live games last season. Period.

bowtown
02-26-2011, 02:42 PM
http://cdn.ksk.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/tim-tebow.jpg

Some of you may have found out recently that I don’t have a girlfriend, and some people say that I don’t want one. That’s not true. I have a passion for personal relationships. I love being in love and sharing something special with a person that I share common interests with. And I love to have. I have a passion for laughing like no other quarterback you’ll find.

But no sex. At least, not before marriage.
If you and I were in a relationship, I would bring so much passion to that relationship game. I would be very passionate about our passion. If my love for our relationship were to be a type of comic book, it would be Action Comics No. 1 from 1938. That’s the first one that Superman was in. Some say that because of his many abilities and mild personality that Superman is boring.

At least he isn’t homo.

If I was to be your boyfriend, I would be the greatest boyfriend I could ever be. I would love you like I love the game of football. And I really love the game of football. But I can not take the game of football to Olive Garden. I cannot take the game of football to my mother’s house and talk about abortions with it. I cannot get down on one knee and propose to the game of football, because the game of football can neither say yes or no.

More...
http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/2011/02/i-will-be-the-greatest-boyfriend-i-can-be.html

MacGruder
02-26-2011, 02:48 PM
Nothing tangible. Just a hearsay convo b/t Elway & an acquaintance at a recent fundraiser dinner during which John allegedly said within a couple of minutes of small talk, "we gotta find a quarterback." He went on to say, that Tebow just doesn't have the accuracy and delivery, and that in the NFL just wanting to be the best and working hard isn't enough - especially at QB. You either have it or you don't.

Of course it is John Elway we are talking about so I am sure he had tossed a few back.

I know I'll get flamed for this "ligthrail rumor blah-di-blah blah" post. I just found it a little disconcerting.

Are you sure the person that related this story didn't have their own axe to grind?

It really worries me though.. Tebow is so unconventional.. being a great player doesn't make you a great talent evaluator. Just like Michael Jordan sucking picking players in the NBA draft. I really see ex players like fans when it comes to evaluating talent.

Tebow is so so incredibly unique the rules you apply to other QB prospects really don't apply to him. Many of the things that APPEAR to be flaws or limitations of Tebow's ability are really the by product of him being so talented.

Guys like Vince Young and Tebow could get away doing things uconventionally.. look at Peyton Manning.. he had an incredibly high rate of interceptions his first year.. was he inaccurate? It's part of the developmental process. But guys like Tebow and Vince have other talents to rely on that allow them to not have to make those same errors or be more conservative throwing the ball. People misinterpret this though. Even highly experienced NFL people. It just falls outside of their realm of knowledge.

Let's put it this way.. I think if Elway was coming up in this era he would have run as much as guys like Tebow and Vince Young.. and it would have hurt him as a pocket passer. Like Tebow and Vince people would have therefore assumed that Elway couldn't pass as well as he was capable of doing if he committed to it.

It's the era that has changed. Running isn't just a bonus in this era.. it's a necessity. The rest of the NFL outside the QB position has advanced so much athletically. the QB position is behind the times.

SoCalBronco
02-26-2011, 03:07 PM
Nothing tangible. Just a hearsay convo b/t Elway & an acquaintance at a recent fundraiser dinner during which John allegedly said within a couple of minutes of small talk, "we gotta find a quarterback." He went on to say, that Tebow just doesn't have the accuracy and delivery, and that in the NFL just wanting to be the best and working hard isn't enough - especially at QB. You either have it or you don't.

Of course it is John Elway we are talking about so I am sure he had tossed a few back.

I know I'll get flamed for this "ligthrail rumor blah-di-blah blah" post. I just found it a little disconcerting.

Yes...that is disconcerting. Hopefully the old man can do something of value for once and force the FO and staff to keep Tebow and work with him.

Blueflame
02-26-2011, 03:11 PM
Not at all. I mean I'm a bronco fan and I don't like to lose. Bu my ego isn't so fragile. I am fine with being wrong. It happens to everyone.

What I have a problem with is dishonesty. I am upfront right or wrong. When I am biased I admit it.

You were absurd and it was painfully obvious to all of us. Even to you. It was pure patriot hate and bias and you never gave him a shot because you had a sandy vagina. You probably have glass in there by now.
Own up to it. I did.

Hey, I expressed an opinion and defended that opinion. There was absolutely no dishonesty whatsoever because almost the first thing I said was "I hate the Patriots". And you know what? I still do. And that's not "absurd"; it's one football fan's biased opinion (I never have ever claimed to be unbiased, btw... don't have any idea where you're coming up with that). I would have liked to have been wrong about McDaniels (because that would mean the Broncos would have been winning) but I wasn't . Every concern I had about McDaniels wound up being justified.

And your speculation about my vagina is just... disturbing. Please stop.

zdoor
02-26-2011, 03:15 PM
This is all CBA driven semantic hedging at this point and nothing more. If the CBA doesn't get done in a timely fashion we're pretty much stuck with Orton.

The fact that we don't have a new CBA dictates that we pretty much have to say what is being said regarding Orton.

When a CBA does get done, an ice cube on a July sidewalk will last longer than Orton in Denver.

Agree completely

MacGruder
02-26-2011, 03:46 PM
I still don't see how any of this pro Orton propaganda can be CBA related..

Orton has no trade value. If he did, then the Broncos wouldn't be letting him go.. then you are right back at square 1 again.

I think any trade value Orton had at the end of his first season at Denver was lost this last season.

Also, if a team realizes that the Broncos are wiling to trade Orton that alone should show the interested party that Orton is of no value IF the Broncos are willing to trade him.

RaiderH8r
02-26-2011, 04:08 PM
There's only one head coach option, but there are three (err:two) QB options, and Orton is a seasoned vet, whereas TimBow likes to run for his life.
Last time I checked RB's don't usually line up behind center.

Since we can't run the ball fer **** it helps to add threats wherever possible. Forgive me for not getting inspired by Orton's ability to take a sack. Oh sweet, Kyle's gonna checkdown three times and go fetal again. Spectacular.

Blueflame
02-26-2011, 04:12 PM
I'm perfectly OK with a new HC coming in and... in February... stating that if a game were to be played tomorrow, the experienced veteran QB would be the starter. Of course, considering that no games will be played in February, it follows that the final depth chart will be determined in training camp. It's smart to wait until he has the opportunity to personally watch his players in practice and carefully evaluate them before making any adjustments to the depth chart.

cutthemdown
02-26-2011, 04:22 PM
I'm perfectly OK with a new HC coming in and... in February... stating that if a game were to be played tomorrow, the experienced veteran QB would be the starter. Of course, considering that no games will be played in February, it follows that the final depth chart will be determined in training camp. It's smart to wait until he has the opportunity to personally watch his players in practice and carefully evaluate them before making any adjustments to the depth chart.

They may not get a training camp which is why it would be stupid to trade orton. It's probably why they kept Xanders around. At least he knows the players on the roster and his way around the complex. They might not get any contact with the rookies until way late into the offseason. One reason I was happy some of the coaches stayed around. At least some of them will know what is going on.

SoCalBronco
02-26-2011, 04:32 PM
They may not get a training camp which is why it would be stupid to trade orton. .

I'm very concerned about the cancellation of camp. Obviously, if this stretches into September as some agents think it may, there goes camp, which sucks, as I was planning on attending in early August.

Your point is a good one, though. As much as I love Tebow, if they are going to cancel the camps and give teams like two weeks to prepare the season after the lockout (if it lasts long), it would probably be a good idea to keep Orton as that would be easier for a veteran than a 2nd year guy.

RhymesayersDU
02-26-2011, 04:35 PM
They may not get a training camp which is why it would be stupid to trade orton.

Which is why I wonder if it was stupid to fire McDaniels in the first place. I know this is going to open a whole can of worms, but everybody knew the lockout was coming. We've been talking about it for a year now. And now Coach Fox has the task of installing his system (on both sides of the ball) without, you know, actually interacting with the players on a football field.

I know there were reasons why McD had to go, and I'm not even pro-McD per se... But in terms of continuity when you're not allowed to practice, maybe we should have kept him.

Bronco Vixen
02-26-2011, 04:44 PM
Are you sure the person that related this story didn't have their own axe to grind?

It really worries me though.. Tebow is so unconventional.. being a great player doesn't make you a great talent evaluator. Just like Michael Jordan sucking picking players in the NBA draft. I really see ex players like fans when it comes to evaluating talent.

Tebow is so so incredibly unique the rules you apply to other QB prospects really don't apply to him. Many of the things that APPEAR to be flaws or limitations of Tebow's ability are really the by product of him being so talented.

Guys like Vince Young and Tebow could get away doing things uconventionally.. look at Peyton Manning.. he had an incredibly high rate of interceptions his first year.. was he inaccurate? It's part of the developmental process. But guys like Tebow and Vince have other talents to rely on that allow them to not have to make those same errors or be more conservative throwing the ball. People misinterpret this though. Even highly experienced NFL people. It just falls outside of their realm of knowledge.

Let's put it this way.. I think if Elway was coming up in this era he would have run as much as guys like Tebow and Vince Young.. and it would have hurt him as a pocket passer. Like Tebow and Vince people would have therefore assumed that Elway couldn't pass as well as he was capable of doing if he committed to it.

It's the era that has changed. Running isn't just a bonus in this era.. it's a necessity. The rest of the NFL outside the QB position has advanced so much athletically. the QB position is behind the times.


Definitely no axe to grind, in fact no stake at all – he’s not even really a football fan – just trying to make small talk- and certainly would have no reason to make something like that up.

All of which is obviously concerning– specifically the flippancy with which Elway would say something like that to someone he didn’t even know. Unfortunately, it’s not necessarily inconsistent with how the FO has handled things since taking over, however (i.e., loose talk to Peter King, ill-conceived tweets, etc.).

The only reason I brought it up was to express my concern (which echos exactly what you articulated above) that there won't be a fair evaluation of Tebow's talent given the myopic fixation on the traditional "NFL QB requisites" (particularly by a HOF QB who was the essence of the prototypical mold himself). Not to mention, minimal commitment behind helping him continue to develop, given the deeply ingrained bias.

All of this being said, since there is not a strong viable alternative right now (and yes imo that includes necktwat), my hope is that Tebow will be given a genuine chance to compete, and will shine.

Blueflame
02-26-2011, 04:51 PM
They may not get a training camp which is why it would be stupid to trade orton. It's probably why they kept Xanders around. At least he knows the players on the roster and his way around the complex. They might not get any contact with the rookies until way late into the offseason. One reason I was happy some of the coaches stayed around. At least some of them will know what is going on.

Totally agree... and unless we got some pretty good compensation for Orton, I can't see any good reason to cut him loose. Let's put aside the budding "Orton vs. Tebow" controversy for a moment (there's plenty of time coming in August or so to trash each other over differing opinions about that) and just acknowledge that Orton and Tebow are the 2 best QBs on our roster. Letting either one go and relying on Brady Quinn as the only backup would be kinda risky, I think.

errand
02-27-2011, 01:48 PM
Orton is closer to Delhomme than Tebow is. I could see Fox--for the purpose of a February depth chart--say this. As someone already said, talk to me in September after a legitimate qb competition takes place.

You're nuts....

Delhomme thinks he can thread a needle from 30-40 yards out...Orton doesn't take chances like that......Delhomme has become the poor man's Cutler....way too many INT's

TheReverend
02-27-2011, 02:11 PM
Which is why I wonder if it was stupid to fire McDaniels in the first place. I know this is going to open a whole can of worms, but everybody knew the lockout was coming. We've been talking about it for a year now. And now Coach Fox has the task of installing his system (on both sides of the ball) without, you know, actually interacting with the players on a football field.

I know there were reasons why McD had to go, and I'm not even pro-McD per se... But in terms of continuity when you're not allowed to practice, maybe we should have kept him.

Not making the move only would've put Denver further behind a year later.

errand
02-27-2011, 02:13 PM
Two huge losses?

16 and 5 points... facing the #2 (on the road in one of, if not the, most hostile stadiums in the league) and #1 pass defenses in the NFL, respectively.

And if that's what he sees, what is he going to see when he watches Orton lose by 45 (at HOME) and 21 to those same teams?

that the QB wasn't the problem...no D in _enver is.

TheReverend
02-27-2011, 02:18 PM
that the QB wasn't the problem...no D in _enver is.

What's he gonna see when he looks at the tapes of the last three games? A Tebow led comeback against arguably one of the worst secondaries in the NFL and two huge losses.

Okay, here's a summation of what you've said on the topic:

When Tebow loses by significantly less, it's a red flag for Fox.

But when Orton gets humiliated by significantly more, including several turnovers and a pick 6, then "QB wasn't the problem"

Sounds legit, bro.

errand
02-27-2011, 03:46 PM
Since we can't run the ball fer **** it helps to add threats wherever possible. Forgive me for not getting inspired by Orton's ability to take a sack. Oh sweet, Kyle's gonna checkdown three times and go fetal again. Spectacular.

Most head coaches and OC's agree......Taking a sack is better than a turnover. It generally goes like this...throw it away before taking a sack, take a sack before turning the ball over.

Kyle has 64 turnovers in 62 games. He's been sacked 122 times in 64 games

Conversely Jay Cutler has 94 turnovers in 68 games. He's been sacked 138 times in 68 games.

just saying....

TDmvp
02-27-2011, 03:47 PM
As much as I like Kyle's will and heart , after hating that we traded for him , He grew on me.

But even tho the guy is a gamer and I loved that he came back into games hurt when Simms was sucking to try to help us , HE IS NOT a qb you can say go win us the game.


In must have moments Kyle folds like a house of cards.


Period ... End of story.

errand
02-27-2011, 03:50 PM
Okay, here's a summation of what you've said on the topic:

When Tebow loses by significantly less, it's a red flag for Fox.

But when Orton gets humiliated by significantly more, including several turnovers and a pick 6, then "QB wasn't the problem"

Sounds legit, bro.



The point being that it doesn't matter who our QB is when the opposing one has minutes to find the open man.

TheReverend
02-27-2011, 06:54 PM
The point being that it doesn't matter who our QB is when the opposing one has minutes to find the open man.

There's certainly a good chunk of validity to that... but the thread title is clearly labeled and that's not the discussion

cutthemdown
02-27-2011, 07:09 PM
Which is why I wonder if it was stupid to fire McDaniels in the first place. I know this is going to open a whole can of worms, but everybody knew the lockout was coming. We've been talking about it for a year now. And now Coach Fox has the task of installing his system (on both sides of the ball) without, you know, actually interacting with the players on a football field.

I know there were reasons why McD had to go, and I'm not even pro-McD per se... But in terms of continuity when you're not allowed to practice, maybe we should have kept him.

Right before he got fired I had said in a thread I am ok with keeping him 1 more yr because of the labor dispute. A new coach wont know the players with no camp etc etc. But whatever I also can see once you think a guy, not the guy, you have to move on.

We may not have the QB of the future on the team right now. We may still be looking.

I just don't see anyone in draft worth taking at number 2.

Maybe in the 2nd round though if one of the top prospects fell. Then of course though you have to trade Orton or Tebow.

schaaf
02-27-2011, 07:12 PM
One thing people are forgetting is that Fox was arguably the second biggest fan of Tebow in the draft last year behind McD. He has stated that if Tebow was available in the 2nd he would have tried to get him.

He is simply being an experienced coach stating that there will be a competition for the starting job.

I and many others really believe Tebow will win the starting job.

RhymesayersDU
02-27-2011, 10:32 PM
Right before he got fired I had said in a thread I am ok with keeping him 1 more yr because of the labor dispute. A new coach wont know the players with no camp etc etc. But whatever I also can see once you think a guy, not the guy, you have to move on.

We may not have the QB of the future on the team right now. We may still be looking.

I just don't see anyone in draft worth taking at number 2.

Maybe in the 2nd round though if one of the top prospects fell. Then of course though you have to trade Orton or Tebow.

The upcoming draft would be my reasoning for starting Tebow right now... But when I say upcoming, I mean 2012. It stands to reason that we're going to have another very high pick, and if Elway & Co. can evaluate Tebow this entire year, maybe they decide we need to make a play for Andrew Luck.

I'm not saying tank the year by any means... But we all know this team is a work in progress, and chances are we again have a top pick again. We need to get the ball rolling on Tebow's evaluation.

schaaf
02-27-2011, 10:37 PM
I don't think we'll have a top pick. I would put money down that we won't be in the top ten

MacGruder
02-27-2011, 10:59 PM
I and many others really believe Tebow will win the starting job.

I would believe that if I thought the coaching personnel were competent.

If that was the case though Tebow would have started last season.

The NFL has a disease called NFL ultraconservativism.

2KBack
02-27-2011, 11:02 PM
I would believe that if I thought the coaching personnel were competent.

If that was the case though Tebow would have started last season.

The NFL has a disease called NFL ultraconservativism.

You do realize that the "coaching personnel" are new right?

jhns
02-28-2011, 07:03 AM
Totally agree... and unless we got some pretty good compensation for Orton, I can't see any good reason to cut him loose. Let's put aside the budding "Orton vs. Tebow" controversy for a moment (there's plenty of time coming in August or so to trash each other over differing opinions about that) and just acknowledge that Orton and Tebow are the 2 best QBs on our roster. Letting either one go and relying on Brady Quinn as the only backup would be kinda risky, I think.

With a new salary cap on the way, there are about 9 million other reasons to cut him even if no one wants to trade.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-28-2011, 07:52 AM
With a new salary cap on the way, there are about 9 million other reasons to cut him even if no one wants to trade.

Assuming Timmy wins the job in camp, I still think you keep Orton around, especially with how recklessly Tebow plays the game.

bowtown
02-28-2011, 08:48 AM
With a new salary cap on the way, there are about 9 million other reasons to cut him even if no one wants to trade.

IIRC All but about 4.5 million of his 2011 contract is guaranteed.

eddie mac
02-28-2011, 09:00 AM
New salary cap???

FFS they're about to take each other to court because they cant agree on a billion other things more important than a salary cap.

jhns
02-28-2011, 09:04 AM
New salary cap???

FFS they're about to take each other to court because they cant agree on a billion other things more important than a salary cap.

What does that have to do with anything? There won't be another game played without a salary cap in place.

jhns
02-28-2011, 09:08 AM
Assuming Timmy wins the job in camp, I still think you keep Orton around, especially with how recklessly Tebow plays the game.

That would also make sense. I don't care either way on the money issue. It isn't my money. I was just listing the one good reason the front office would have for cutting Orton if no one wanted to trade for him (or for us to accept less compensation in a trade). I do hope we bring in a new qb if Orton goes. It would be nice to see Quinn cut.

montrose
02-28-2011, 09:52 AM
I think you figure the longer the lockout goes, the more likely Orton is the starter. He's the vet and they'll be less time to prepare, your trade return wouldn't come until the following season, and the team receiving him would have to prep a starting QB in a super-short time period.

So far in the local "rumor mill" it's hard to get a gauge of things:

1) One side of "insiders" claim the Broncos have already seen enough from Tebow to know he can't play and that Orton is their guy in 2011 and maybe even beyond. They claim that's why the Broncos are still saying Orton is the starter, not throwing major support behind Tim and refer to Elway's comments about Tebow not being a good QB but being a good football player who needs to become a good QB.

2) Another group claims the Broncos are saying Orton is still the starter because they have to. They're not going to hand Tebow the job and want to keep Orton's value high.

3) And a final group takes the Broncos at their public word that Orton is currently the starter because of his experience but there will be competition.

It's pretty hard to gauge whose accurate and whose not but what I've noticed is the same people that were pro-Tebow or anti-Tebow are claiming the side listed above that jives with their original opinion, which I find hard to be coincidence.

RaiderH8r
02-28-2011, 12:31 PM
Most head coaches and OC's agree......Taking a sack is better than a turnover. It generally goes like this...throw it away before taking a sack, take a sack before turning the ball over.

Kyle has 64 turnovers in 62 games. He's been sacked 122 times in 64 games

Conversely Jay Cutler has 94 turnovers in 68 games. He's been sacked 138 times in 68 games.

just saying....

Tuck it and run. Just sayin. But Orton runs like old people screw. I'm pretty sure he's hauling a refrigerator in his back pocket.

Beantown Bronco
02-28-2011, 12:35 PM
Tuck it and run. Just sayin. But Orton runs like old people screw. I'm pretty sure he's hauling a refrigerator in his back pocket.

kegerator is more likely

OABB
02-28-2011, 12:42 PM
Tuck it and run. Just sayin. But Orton runs like old people screw. I'm pretty sure he's hauling a refrigerator in his back pocket.

Most coaches agree that a 40 yard touchdown run is better than taking a sack as well.

RaiderH8r
02-28-2011, 02:56 PM
Most coaches agree that a 40 yard touchdown run is better than taking a sack as well.

Some folks think that a 6 yard run on 3rd and 5 inside the redzone and finishing with a helicopter dive in the Super Bowl is pretty damn cool as well.

Chris
02-28-2011, 03:40 PM
kegerator is more likely

Can you refrigerate Jack Daniels?

OABB
02-28-2011, 03:41 PM
Some folks think that a 6 yard run on 3rd and 5 inside the redzone and finishing with a helicopter dive in the Super Bowl is pretty damn cool as well.

Elway was too innacurate and had a wierd hitch in his step. He just tucked it and ran when his first option was covered. Bust.

RhymesayersDU
02-28-2011, 07:28 PM
Can you refrigerate Jack Daniels?

Yes.

Rigs11
03-02-2011, 04:28 PM
John Elway calls Tim Tebow “very raw”

Posted by Michael David Smith on March 2, 2011, 2:35 PM EST

One of this offseason’s most fascinating position battles will take place in Denver, where Kyle Orton and Tim Tebow will compete for the starting quarterback job. And in another sign that Tebow may not have much support in Denver, Broncos front office boss John Elway described the way Tebow played at the end of the season as “very raw.”

“Tim came in and started the last three games and played well but was also very raw,” Elway said on Mile High Sports Radio in Denver, per SportsRadioInterviews.com.

Elway also reiterated what head coach John Fox has previously said: Whenever training camp opens, Orton will be ahead of Tebow on the Broncos’ depth chart.

“If we sit here right now Kyle would be the starter,” Elway said. “Now, Fox likes competition and I think that is what makes everybody better is competition at every position and so therefore when he gets here he does not know anybody here so when he comes into camp and brings these guys into camp, every position is going to be competed for and the best player’s going to play there.”

At the moment, the Broncos’ brass thinks the best player is Orton, not Tebow.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/02/john-elway-calls-tim-tebow-very-raw/related

Tombstone RJ
03-02-2011, 04:44 PM
John Elway calls Tim Tebow “very raw”

Posted by Michael David Smith on March 2, 2011, 2:35 PM EST

One of this offseason’s most fascinating position battles will take place in Denver, where Kyle Orton and Tim Tebow will compete for the starting quarterback job. And in another sign that Tebow may not have much support in Denver, Broncos front office boss John Elway described the way Tebow played at the end of the season as “very raw.”

“Tim came in and started the last three games and played well but was also very raw,” Elway said on Mile High Sports Radio in Denver, per SportsRadioInterviews.com.

Elway also reiterated what head coach John Fox has previously said: Whenever training camp opens, Orton will be ahead of Tebow on the Broncos’ depth chart.

“If we sit here right now Kyle would be the starter,” Elway said. “Now, Fox likes competition and I think that is what makes everybody better is competition at every position and so therefore when he gets here he does not know anybody here so when he comes into camp and brings these guys into camp, every position is going to be competed for and the best player’s going to play there.”

At the moment, the Broncos’ brass thinks the best player is Orton, not Tebow.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/02/john-elway-calls-tim-tebow-very-raw/related

Elway--making the most out of his QB situation. Elway cannot deny that the Broncos offense was just as productive with a "raw" Tebow as it was with a seasoned Orton.

New HC, new offense, new defense, new STs. Sure you want competition, that goes without saying.

OABB
03-02-2011, 04:50 PM
Elway--making the most out of his QB situation. Elway cannot deny that the Broncos offense was just as productive with a "raw" Tebow as it was with a seasoned Orton.

New HC, new offense, new defense, new STs. Sure you want competition, that goes without saying.

Actually it was more productive.