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View Full Version : SI's Jim Trotter: Two owners say if no CBA before Mar 4, nothing till Labor Day at earliest


SoCalBronco
02-13-2011, 11:12 PM
"Jim Trotter from Sports Illustrated relays some very disturbing comments from two NFL owners. Two owners told Trotter that if the CBA situation doesn't get worked out by March 4, then there will be "nothing" until Labor Day."


For more, see:
http://www.turfshowtimes.com/2011/2/10/1986233/cba-talks-nothing-until-labor-day

HAT
02-13-2011, 11:21 PM
Sweet....It'll be done by 3/4 then.

Taco John
02-13-2011, 11:21 PM
The players have absolutely no leverage here.

SoCalBronco
02-13-2011, 11:33 PM
The players have absolutely no leverage here.

Indeed. I think there are alot of hawks among the owners group, though. They're not going to just sign off on a good deal for themselves to make up for the last deal. They've got revenue coming in from the networks whether the games are played or not (altho it will have to be paid back at a later date with interest if no games are played). They're going to want to totally break the union, just like the NHL did in 2005. That's why they hired Bob Batterman from the NHL. I'm sure alot of these guys are willing to sacrifice several games and maybe the whole season to make sure they completely own the union, not just get the better of them.

I was looking forward to going to camp this year, too, but there may not be a camp in August at this rate. :(

DivineBronco
02-13-2011, 11:35 PM
the owners are going to get what they want players union has no leverage. Means nothing to the old rich white dudes to lose a season. best be finding other things to do for the start of next NFL season

RhymesayersDU
02-14-2011, 04:52 AM
Sweet....It'll be done by 3/4 then.

LOL

Kaylore
02-14-2011, 05:13 AM
Indeed. I think there are alot of hawks among the owners group, though. They're not going to just sign off on a good deal for themselves to make up for the last deal. They've got revenue coming in from the networks whether the games are played or not (altho it will have to be paid back at a later date with interest if no games are played). They're going to want to totally break the union, just like the NHL did in 2005. That's why they hired Bob Batterman from the NHL. I'm sure alot of these guys are willing to sacrifice several games and maybe the whole season to make sure they completely own the union, not just get the better of them.

I was looking forward to going to camp this year, too, but there may not be a camp in August at this rate. :(

Like I said in the other thread, the players will probably show a little backbone and stay away, but they'll buckle mid-season when the union dues they're collecting don't allow them to "make it rain" as heavy, probably some time in October.

HILife
02-14-2011, 05:30 AM
Will they just get something done so we can get back to the season.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-14-2011, 05:42 AM
Indeed. I think there are alot of hawks among the owners group, though. They're not going to just sign off on a good deal for themselves to make up for the last deal. They've got revenue coming in from the networks whether the games are played or not (altho it will have to be paid back at a later date with interest if no games are played). They're going to want to totally break the union, just like the NHL did in 2005. That's why they hired Bob Batterman from the NHL. I'm sure alot of these guys are willing to sacrifice several games and maybe the whole season to make sure they completely own the union, not just get the better of them.

I was looking forward to going to camp this year, too, but there may not be a camp in August at this rate. :(

Well, that certainly has worked out to the NHL's advantage. Lower interest than the sport has seen in decades.

Good thinking, NFL owners! Hooray for you!

DrFate
02-14-2011, 06:10 AM
Well, that certainly has worked out to the NHL's advantage. Lower interest than the sport has seen in decades.


While the post is true, I don't think the situations are entirely the same. The NHL was always a marginal US sport (well, for the past 20 years, at least) so when it fell, it didn't have to fall far to move off the major networks, etc.

The NFL is riding high, and I'm sure the owners will take a 2-3 year downturn for the longterm profits. Think about this - how many teams that sell out now will sell out after a lockout? Probably most.

How many that have blackouts now will have blackouts after - again, probably most. The before/after pictures don't look all that different.

primetime714
02-14-2011, 07:15 AM
The sticking point is going to be the number of regular season games. I think the players union will cave easily on the other points (rookie cap, etc.), but they'll hold tight to a 16 game season as long as they can. If the owners can live with that the deal could be done by March 4th. Although I'd be surprised if they get it done that quickly.

footstepsfrom#27
02-14-2011, 07:24 AM
Indeed. I think there are alot of hawks among the owners group, though. They're not going to just sign off on a good deal for themselves to make up for the last deal. They've got revenue coming in from the networks whether the games are played or not (altho it will have to be paid back at a later date with interest if no games are played). They're going to want to totally break the union, just like the NHL did in 2005. That's why they hired Bob Batterman from the NHL. I'm sure alot of these guys are willing to sacrifice several games and maybe the whole season to make sure they completely own the union, not just get the better of them.(
Any idea where Bowlen falls on the Hawk scale? I ask since I noticed for the first time (I hate paying attention to all this crap) that the owner's revenue is only a loan... wtf ??? ...and one with an interest rate attached as well...did not know that. I'm guessing Pat won't have a problem with that though since he likes buying **** on credit anyway. ;D

montrose
02-14-2011, 07:26 AM
Didn't the owners take out an insurance policy against the lockout a few years ago?

peacepipe
02-14-2011, 07:45 AM
I hope the NFLPA doesn't cave, I know it's a soft union compared to MLB, but I'd lose all respect for them. I wouldn't be able to watch a game without thinking how weak & pathetic they are. I'd likely stop watching football if they caved as badly as some are predicting.

Taco John
02-14-2011, 07:46 AM
Well, that certainly has worked out to the NHL's advantage. Lower interest than the sport has seen in decades.

Good thinking, NFL owners! Hooray for you!


This isn't the NHL.

Lev Vyvanse
02-14-2011, 07:50 AM
Didn't the owners take out an insurance policy against the lockout a few years ago?

Who would underwrite that?
brb getting some insurance that pays me if I decide to not go to work.

Kaylore
02-14-2011, 07:53 AM
Didn't the owners take out an insurance policy against the lockout a few years ago?

Yup. This has been in the works for years, and the players have been too busy fighting a battle that was lost for some time. They'll try and generate support and paint the owners as the bad guy, but it will mean little at the end of the day. Between the TV contracts and the insurance policy, the owners can take a couple years off if they want to. The players should have been socking away their money like the owners and then considered migrating to the UFL just to put a little fear in the owners. Oh well.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-14-2011, 08:04 AM
This isn't the NHL.

Thank you for clarifying, Captain Obvious.

I never said that it was.

gyldenlove
02-14-2011, 08:07 AM
Indeed. I think there are alot of hawks among the owners group, though. They're not going to just sign off on a good deal for themselves to make up for the last deal. They've got revenue coming in from the networks whether the games are played or not (altho it will have to be paid back at a later date with interest if no games are played). They're going to want to totally break the union, just like the NHL did in 2005. That's why they hired Bob Batterman from the NHL. I'm sure alot of these guys are willing to sacrifice several games and maybe the whole season to make sure they completely own the union, not just get the better of them.

I was looking forward to going to camp this year, too, but there may not be a camp in August at this rate. :(

The irony is that NHL salaries are higher now than they were before the lockout thanks to a salary cap that has sky rocketed. The minimum team salary teams are forced to pay is higher than the team salary that several of the cheap teams paid before the cap.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-14-2011, 08:08 AM
Yup. This has been in the works for years, and the players have been too busy fighting a battle that was lost for some time. They'll try and generate support and paint the owners as the bad guy, but it will mean little at the end of the day. Between the TV contracts and the insurance policy, the owners can take a couple years off if they want to. The players should have been socking away their money like the owners and then considered migrating to the UFL just to put a little fear in the owners. Oh well.

The only way a UFL migration would work would be is if either A) players moved over en masse or B) if they got a couple big fish to come over, like Brady or Manning or Ochocinco... Only then would it be compelling football.

Have you tried to watch UFL? Awful.

Tombstone RJ
02-14-2011, 08:14 AM
Yup. This has been in the works for years, and the players have been too busy fighting a battle that was lost for some time. They'll try and generate support and paint the owners as the bad guy, but it will mean little at the end of the day. Between the TV contracts and the insurance policy, the owners can take a couple years off if they want to. The players should have been socking away their money like the owners and then considered migrating to the UFL just to put a little fear in the owners. Oh well.

I'm sure some of the smart players did this (put money away for a rainy day) and they are mostly offensive lineman (smartest group by far). That being said, any owner who thinks he can strengthen the NFL by a protracted labor dispute is kidding himself.

Many NFL fans are gonna find out that they can do better things on a Sunday than sit an their can and watch TV. These die hard fans are gonna find out that they ain't so die hard as they thought they were when they stop thinking about thier team and start doing something more productive with their time and money.

The NFL is a luxury, nothing more. Many fan are gonna find out that their lives are just fine and dandy without the game. Do you really think the owners want to take a chance of losing fans in an already maxed out market?

Not if they are smart.

gunns
02-14-2011, 08:32 AM
While the post is true, I don't think the situations are entirely the same. The NHL was always a marginal US sport (well, for the past 20 years, at least) so when it fell, it didn't have to fall far to move off the major networks, etc.

The NFL is riding high, and I'm sure the owners will take a 2-3 year downturn for the longterm profits. Think about this - how many teams that sell out now will sell out after a lockout? Probably most.

How many that have blackouts now will have blackouts after - again, probably most. The before/after pictures don't look all that different.

I don't know. I think if this goes into the regular season and games are missed the fans may want to teach them a lesson. If this was back in the 90's I'd totally agree with you, but the economy has hit fans much harder than it has hit owners and people are pissed right now, in general.

HAT
02-14-2011, 08:37 AM
The NHL was always a marginal US sport

Low man on the totem pole as far as 'the big 4' go maybe. But how can you even call a sport that's IN 'the big 4' marginal?

MLS, AFL, WNBA, etc. are/were marginal (niche is a better word), the NHL is not.

Garcia Bronco
02-14-2011, 09:10 AM
burn baby, burn. Burn it all down.

oubronco
02-14-2011, 09:12 AM
Well we will still have Nascar

cmhargrove
02-14-2011, 09:13 AM
I'm sure some of the smart players did this (put money away for a rainy day) and they are mostly offensive lineman (smartest group by far). That being said, any owner who thinks he can strengthen the NFL by a protracted labor dispute is kidding himself.

Many NFL fans are gonna find out that they can do better things on a Sunday than sit an their can and watch TV. These die hard fans are gonna find out that they ain't so die hard as they thought they were when they stop thinking about thier team and start doing something more productive with their time and money.

The NFL is a luxury, nothing more. Many fan are gonna find out that their lives are just fine and dandy without the game. Do you really think the owners want to take a chance of losing fans in an already maxed out market?

Not if they are smart.

As stated in an earlier thread - this could be a boon to college football. I look forward to feeding my addiction and watching a little more "amateur ball" on Saturdays.

I might even record a college game on Saturday and watch it on Sunday.

Life goes on...

oubronco
02-14-2011, 09:15 AM
As stated in an earlier thread - this could be a boon to college football. I look forward to feeding my addiction and watching a little more "amateur ball" on Saturdays.

I might even record a college game on Saturday and watch it on Sunday.

Life goes on...

I will be heading down to Norman for a few games this year

Tombstone RJ
02-14-2011, 09:17 AM
Well we will still have Nascar

yikes, that's a scary thought...

oubronco
02-14-2011, 09:18 AM
yikes, that's a scary thought...

Hilarious! Yep

BroncosMT
02-14-2011, 09:30 AM
I don't know. I think if this goes into the regular season and games are missed the fans may want to teach them a lesson. If this was back in the 90's I'd totally agree with you, but the economy has hit fans much harder than it has hit owners and people are pissed right now, in general.

I tend to lean with you on this one.....times are much tougher and people are upset. The one thing Football has going for it is its popularity and what else is really going on that time of the year? Baseball? Nascar? for me pretty boring

cmhargrove
02-14-2011, 09:33 AM
I will be heading down to Norman for a few games this year

A couple of my son's buddies are going to "walk on" next year at OU. I'm sure they would red shirt next year, but after that I might be asking for reports.

Mile High Shack
02-14-2011, 09:34 AM
hello college football, guess I'll be watching that even more

RaiderH8r
02-14-2011, 09:57 AM
The players have absolutely no leverage here.

They can still decertify, but that leverage pretty much goes away after the draft. It will still have an impact but blowing the whole thing up just before such a high profile event is really the best round in the NFLPA's pop gun at this point.

ColoradoDarin
02-14-2011, 10:26 AM
I think the NHL moving to VS and no longer on ESPN (especially the playoffs) hurt them more than the lockout.

Hercules Rockefeller
02-14-2011, 10:38 AM
Gonna be hilarious if both the NFL and NBA don't start on time next year or their seasons are canceled entirely.

Dukes
02-14-2011, 10:45 AM
I think the NHL moving to VS and no longer on ESPN (especially the playoffs) hurt them more than the lockout.

Agreed. Out of sight out of mind.

titan
02-14-2011, 10:48 AM
As stated in an earlier thread - this could be a boon to college football. I look forward to feeding my addiction and watching a little more "amateur ball" on Saturdays.

I might even record a college game on Saturday and watch it on Sunday.

Life goes on...

The CU Buffs have a terrific home schedule in 2011 - their first in the Pac 10:
Sept 10th Cal (still listed as TBA but Cal confirms the game is on)
Oct 1 Wash St (ok not so great but a good chance for a Buff win)
Oct 22 Oregon (#1 team?)
Nov 5th USC
Nov 12th Arizona

No Broncos? I'll be heading up to Boulder for more games this year.

Hercules Rockefeller
02-14-2011, 10:48 AM
I think the NHL moving to VS and no longer on ESPN (especially the playoffs) hurt them more than the lockout.

ESPN's coverage of the NHL sucked, and it still sucks despite their claim that they want it back.

DrFate
02-14-2011, 10:53 AM
Low man on the totem pole as far as 'the big 4' go maybe. But how can you even call a sport that's IN 'the big 4' marginal?

MLS, AFL, WNBA, etc. are/were marginal (niche is a better word), the NHL is not.

Well, it's all relative. The 'Big 4' is an arbitrarily drawn line - where does the NHL rank in total $$/popularity against golf, or MMA, or NASCAR (as a handful of examples that come to mind)? I know in my section of the country I see a whole lot more hats/shirts with Jr. or Gordon or Harvick than Crosby or Ovechkin.

I'm sure the NHL is above the Arena league or MLS, yes. But I'll stand by my original point - the NHL didn't have far to fall before it went 'off the radar'. The NFL is the king of that mountain.

DrFate
02-14-2011, 10:58 AM
I don't know. I think if this goes into the regular season and games are missed the fans may want to teach them a lesson. If this was back in the 90's I'd totally agree with you, but the economy has hit fans much harder than it has hit owners and people are pissed right now, in general.

A couple things come to mind.

1) baseballl recovered and they lost an entire postseason
2) the NFL has had work stopages before - and recovered

I know from the people on this board - for every fan who says 'screw it, I'm done' there are 2 more waiting to grab those season tickets. How many threads did we endure re: Broncos fans saying they'd not renew because of 'the former coach' and how many responses were there saying 'go ahead, I'll grab those tix quick'.

I'm not saying there won't be a fallout or a loss of money in the short term - but I do believe the owners look at this as they lose X now, but they gain Y over time due to a more favorable CBA. And I think Y > X.

bpc
02-14-2011, 11:09 AM
Eh. Does this mean we get two straight 2nd overall draftpicks? If so, awesome.

In the end, I can wait it out. CU will still be playing in the PAC 12so it won't hinder me much.

Missouribronc
02-14-2011, 11:13 AM
A couple things come to mind.

1) baseballl recovered and they lost an entire postseason
2) the NFL has had work stopages before - and recovered

I know from the people on this board - for every fan who says 'screw it, I'm done' there are 2 more waiting to grab those season tickets. How many threads did we endure re: Broncos fans saying they'd not renew because of 'the former coach' and how many responses were there saying 'go ahead, I'll grab those tix quick'.

I'm not saying there won't be a fallout or a loss of money in the short term - but I do believe the owners look at this as they lose X now, but they gain Y over time due to a more favorable CBA. And I think Y > X.

It took steroids and home runs to fix baseball. If that hadn't happened, the story might be completely different.

As far as football, though, I think people will go back. I'm with you, I don't think they'll have much of a problem even if they did lose a season.

Garcia Bronco
02-14-2011, 11:26 AM
It took steroids and home runs to fix baseball. If that hadn't happened, the story might be completely different.


No it didn't. Good grief. Thats ESPN garbage.

Garcia Bronco
02-14-2011, 11:27 AM
Eh. Does this mean we get two straight 2nd overall draftpicks? If so, awesome.

In the end, I can wait it out. CU will still be playing in the PAC 12so it won't hinder me much.

If there is no 2011 season then yes we get the second pick again.

ColoradoDarin
02-14-2011, 11:33 AM
ESPN's coverage of the NHL sucked, and it still sucks despite their claim that they want it back.

That maybe true, but more people have access to ESPN than VS (like me on the lowest tier of DTV)

Hercules Rockefeller
02-14-2011, 12:24 PM
If there is no 2011 season then yes we get the second pick again.

Please don't say that, because it's 100% not true at this point. Absolutely nothing has been discussed with regards to a 2012 draft because there isn't even a lockout yet.

People will read that, accept it, and begin to repeat it.

NFLBRONCO
02-14-2011, 12:39 PM
A lockout sucks and I will be miffed but, I'll return to NFL because its one of my few sports I watch.

That One Guy
02-14-2011, 12:49 PM
Indeed. I think there are alot of hawks among the owners group, though. They're not going to just sign off on a good deal for themselves to make up for the last deal. They've got revenue coming in from the networks whether the games are played or not (altho it will have to be paid back at a later date with interest if no games are played). They're going to want to totally break the union, just like the NHL did in 2005. That's why they hired Bob Batterman from the NHL. I'm sure alot of these guys are willing to sacrifice several games and maybe the whole season to make sure they completely own the union, not just get the better of them.

I was looking forward to going to camp this year, too, but there may not be a camp in August at this rate. :(

Supposedly it has been conveyed to the NFLPA that the owners are not going to push for a deal that will have the players ready to strike in a few years. They want a deal that will be fair so everyone is happy and there are no more distractions or interruptions.

That being said, obviously the owners wouldn't send the NFLPA a memo that says "Bend over and take it" either. So take it for what it's worth. I also agree that the players are weak, ill positioned, and lack any leverage at all. They'll cave and the owners know it. An owner already is a billionaire and can own a team for 50 years. A player has MAYBE 10 years usually to earn all the money they can. They will look at the situation with their own personal situation first and foremost.

That One Guy
02-14-2011, 12:52 PM
They can still decertify, but that leverage pretty much goes away after the draft. It will still have an impact but blowing the whole thing up just before such a high profile event is really the best round in the NFLPA's pop gun at this point.

Didn't I read though that if the union decertifies, they can't be a union again for a number of years? It appeared that the decertification threat was merely to tell the owners that locking out the union (and thus the players) would not break the resistance and force the union to cave to their demand. That said, what I read suggested that in such a scenario, the owners simply institute their best offer and push forward but don't have to deal with a union anymore. Seems like win/win to me for the owners.

Only thing that wasn't clear for me is how the union factor interferes with the anti-trust factor. Something about after they decertify, the next step would be to sue the NFL for anti-trust violations? Anyone tracking on that?

That One Guy
02-14-2011, 01:02 PM
I still don't understand the situation but this was on PFT today about the intent of the union to use decertification in conjunction with an anti-trust suit.

League files unfair labor practice charge over plan to decertify (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/14/league-files-unfair-labor-practice-charge-over-plan-to-decertify/)

Posted by Mike Florio on February 14, 2011, 3:22 PM EST
http://nbcprofootballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/nfl_goodell.jpg?w=250 Apparently, the NFL’s lawyers have decided to abandon for now the goal of world peace (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/10/nfl-prefers-that-super-bowl-ticket-lawyers-focus-on-world-peace/).
NFL spokesman Greg Aiello has confirmed that the league has filed with National Labor Relations Board a charge of unfair labor practices. The league claims that the NFLPA has failed to bargain in good faith as a result of a strategy to decertify and file antitrust litigation against the league.
The league claims that, in filing the charge, it seeks only that the NLRB order the union to bargain in good faith. The NFL believes that the union has engaged in “surface bargaining,” along with tactics designed to avoid reaching an agreement before the CBA expires, so that the union can file antitrust litigation.
The NFL contends that the union’s strategy of decertification (technically, a “disclaimer of interest”) “is a ploy and an unlawful subversion of the collective bargaining process, there being no evidence whatsoever of any (let alone widespread) disaffection with the union by its members.”
Said the NFL in its complaint: “The NFLPA’s threat to use a sham disclaimer of interest after expiration of the CBA is the same tactic that it employed in 1989 when its representatives falsely swore that its disclaimer was ‘permanent.’ The union’s purpose in doing so is to evade its collective bargaining obligations under the National Labor Relations Act, to seek to use antitrust litigation to enjoin a lawful lockout, and once again attempt to achieve its bargaining objectives under the coercive guise of an antitrust settlement. This plan by the union has produced 20 months of surface bargaining as the union has run out the clock in order to disclaim interest after expiration of the CBA.”
In English, the gloves are off. And the chances of getting a deal done by March 4 are becoming even more remote.
And the golden goose could be coming down with a case of Ebola, especially since the league is trying to prevent the union from implementing its primary tactic for avoiding a lockout, which means a lockout is coming.

Profootballtalk.com

gunns
02-14-2011, 01:25 PM
A couple things come to mind.

1) baseballl recovered and they lost an entire postseason
2) the NFL has had work stopages before - and recovered

I know from the people on this board - for every fan who says 'screw it, I'm done' there are 2 more waiting to grab those season tickets. How many threads did we endure re: Broncos fans saying they'd not renew because of 'the former coach' and how many responses were there saying 'go ahead, I'll grab those tix quick'.

I'm not saying there won't be a fallout or a loss of money in the short term - but I do believe the owners look at this as they lose X now, but they gain Y over time due to a more favorable CBA. And I think Y > X.

Those were the 80's and 90's and as I said if this were the 90's I'd agree with you. Season tickets maybe, but not as many as before. Single game tickets, I think people will give them a taste of their medicine. People I've heard are saying screw them and going with college or another sport.

If this were the 80's or 90's I'd be freaking out, nashing my teeth, over this. I'm not. I absolutely love football, next to my family it's #1, but if they do this I will not buy another NFL product or support it in any way. I will not be crying come August or September. And I'm doing fairly well economically but I know so many that are not. I know football is a business but it's the fans that support it and in the end we're the one's that lose. I'll do my best to see that they lose something also.

bfoflcommish
02-14-2011, 01:37 PM
Those were the 80's and 90's and as I said if this were the 90's I'd agree with you. Season tickets maybe, but not as many as before. Single game tickets, I think people will give them a taste of their medicine. People I've heard are saying screw them and going with college or another sport.

If this were the 80's or 90's I'd be freaking out, nashing my teeth, over this. I'm not. I absolutely love football, next to my family it's #1, but if they do this I will not buy another NFL product or support it in any way. I will not be crying come August or September. And I'm doing fairly well economically but I know so many that are not. I know football is a business but it's the fans that support it and in the end we're the one's that lose. I'll do my best to see that they lose something also.



eh I see what you mean but what will they lose? your 3 t shirts 2 hats and 1 jersey sale? all which is made up easily by a new season ticket holder family who now has seats because someone just like you is going to "prove a point"?

TheReverend
02-14-2011, 01:43 PM
eh I see what you mean but what will they lose? your 3 t shirts 2 hats and 1 jersey sale? all which is made up easily by a new season ticket holder family who now has seats because someone just like you is going to "prove a point"?

Not all franchises have Denver's sell out seasons luxury. Some could absolutely crumble from the kind of pressure Gunns is talking about where a percentage of the fan base watches from home and cancels their tickets. Something like that would create a ripple of effect that would absolutely effect the stable franchises like Denver, Pitt, GB, etc

Tombstone RJ
02-14-2011, 01:50 PM
The NFL fans have been very generous for the most part, especially in cities where tax revenue helped generate a new stadium. If this labor dispute goes on for a while, and disrupts this coming season, then I can see many long time NFL fans walking away from the league, especially the older fans who have seen the growth of the NFL over the last 30 years or so.

With FA and the movement of teams from one city to the next, the owners and players better take notice that team loyalty is somewhat over valued. Things like fantasy football may have increased the overall exposure of the NFL to new younger fans, but it does nothing to help strengthen the identity of the franchises themselves.

kmartin575
02-14-2011, 04:48 PM
Not all franchises have Denver's sell out seasons luxury. Some could absolutely crumble from the kind of pressure Gunns is talking about where a percentage of the fan base watches from home and cancels their tickets. Something like that would create a ripple of effect that would absolutely effect the stable franchises like Denver, Pitt, GB, etc

Are you talking about the same Denver that had to fire a number of team employees a year or two ago because they were short on money? They sure are well off, huh?

RaiderH8r
02-14-2011, 05:10 PM
Didn't I read though that if the union decertifies, they can't be a union again for a number of years? It appeared that the decertification threat was merely to tell the owners that locking out the union (and thus the players) would not break the resistance and force the union to cave to their demand. That said, what I read suggested that in such a scenario, the owners simply institute their best offer and push forward but don't have to deal with a union anymore. Seems like win/win to me for the owners.

Only thing that wasn't clear for me is how the union factor interferes with the anti-trust factor. Something about after they decertify, the next step would be to sue the NFL for anti-trust violations? Anyone tracking on that?

Except that once the union decertifies the NFL business model is vulnerable to lawsuit since union decert removes the NFL anti-trust exemption. The anti-trust exemption is the only thing that keeps the NFL, as an entity, a functioning and successful business model. Not to say that it can't survive otherwise but it is a much riskier scenario.

CHANGSTER
02-14-2011, 05:38 PM
Caught a segment on msnbc about the debt loads that the owners are carrying. Owners having to pay the banks isn't a part the process that has been publicized much. Couldn't find an article with specifics, but it shed a little light on the owners stance.

peacepipe
02-14-2011, 05:44 PM
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Decertification-part-of-a-plan.html

In other words, in the event the NFLPA were to dispute restraints imposed by the NFL – free agency restrictions, the college draft, practice squads, salary caps, etc. – the league would prevail in these disputes based on the existence of a mutually-agreed-upon CBA. Taken to its logical conclusion, courts have ruled – the seminal case being Powell v. NFL in the Eight Circuit Court of Appeals -- that as long as the NFL players have a collective bargaining agent (union), they have no recourse in antitrust court to sue the NFL.

Faced with this dead end twenty years ago, the late Gene Upshaw chose a different path for the NFLPA. With the NFL allowed to impose its restraints through an impasse in bargaining and seemingly free to impose their system on the players as long as the players had a collective bargaining agent (union), Upshaw decided to have the players become antitrust litigants rather than union members. The union decertified, negating its existence as a collective bargaining agent, and allowing players to sue the NFL about the restraints in place.

Players thus became plaintiffs, with names such as Freeman McNeil and Reggie White in lead roles. The 1993 Reggie White v. NFL case eventually settled and that settlement became the basis for the CBA that has – through repeated extensions -- governed the NFL and its players for the last seventeen years.

gunns
02-14-2011, 05:48 PM
eh I see what you mean but what will they lose? your 3 t shirts 2 hats and 1 jersey sale? all which is made up easily by a new season ticket holder family who now has seats because someone just like you is going to "prove a point"?

I understand what you are saying about season tickets holders. I am not and will probably never be a season ticket holder. They've lost from me what you've stated above plus some. I'm sure it won't mean much but I doubt I'd be the only one and I'd feel incredibly stupid supporting their actions. And the "point" is important. These owners aren't hurting. Who's really the one trying to "prove a point"? Personally I don't like their point.

gunns
02-14-2011, 05:52 PM
Caught a segment on msnbc about the debt loads that the owners are carrying. Owners having to pay the banks isn't a part the process that has been publicized much. Couldn't find an article with specifics, but it shed a little light on the owners stance.

Well, the NFLPA has been asking for proof of their "debt" and "loss of income" and the owners won't produce that. They've had how long to settle this? This appears to be a grandstand by the owners and I for one hope it slaps them right in the face....and wallet.

SoCalBronco
02-14-2011, 07:04 PM
ESPN's coverage of the NHL sucked, and it still sucks despite their claim that they want it back.

There were very very few things more awesome than the ESPN NHL game intro theme music. I really miss that. Thorne and Clement were not bad either...although my college roommate swore up and down that they were flamers. ROFL!

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/8PReim0Axt4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

RhymesayersDU
02-14-2011, 07:11 PM
I absolutely love football, next to my family it's #1, but if they do this I will not buy another NFL product or support it in any way.

So you're going to stop watching the NFL altogether, then?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-14-2011, 07:19 PM
There were very very few things more awesome than the ESPN NHL game intro theme music. I really miss that. Thorne and Clement were not bad either...although my college roommate swore up and down that they were flamers. ROFL!

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/8PReim0Axt4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Doesn't even compare to this:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/PR7cd_N2LPU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Even though it was written by John Tesh.

RhymesayersDU
02-14-2011, 07:20 PM
Doesn't even compare to this:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/PR7cd_N2LPU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Even though it was written by John Tesh.

You had me at hello. God I love that.

SoCalBronco
02-14-2011, 07:24 PM
Yes the old NBA on NBC theme was amazing as well. Even 50 years from now, when I'm an old man, I will recognize that instantly.

RhymesayersDU
02-14-2011, 07:26 PM
We can agree that it's John Tesh's greatest achievement and/or contribution to the world, yes?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-14-2011, 08:21 PM
We can agree that it's John Tesh's greatest achievement and/or contribution to the world, yes?

Greatest?

How about only?

RhymesayersDU
02-14-2011, 08:39 PM
Hah, truth.

broncocalijohn
02-14-2011, 09:17 PM
The players have absolutely no leverage here.

As much as a pro business, anti union guy I am, there is no way I would stand for this difference in negotiations in dollars...

Brandt offers a glimpse of what a rookie deal would look like under that proposal. The 9th overall pick in the draft would get $18 million for a 4-year contract. The NFL rejected that proposal. According to Brandt the league's proposal would pay the 9th pick in the draft $8.6 million over 5 years. The 9th pick in last year's draft, RB C.J. Spiller, received a 5-year, $28 million contract with $20.8 million guaranteed.

So they get far less than $2 million a year if they become the next Gale Sayers and be one of the best but have a short career. When you finally have the chance to make some bank, you have maybe one good contract left as a RB. Top 10 picks are because of how they produced in College and teams fell they are going to carry that over to the NFL.

FireFly
02-15-2011, 02:56 AM
Please don't say that, because it's 100% not true at this point. Absolutely nothing has been discussed with regards to a 2012 draft because there isn't even a lockout yet.

People will read that, accept it, and begin to repeat it.

I believed him - I was "OH! Sweet deal! Silver lining!" :thumbsup:


...you've taken that away from me now :'(

houghtam
02-15-2011, 04:08 AM
So you're going to stop watching the NFL altogether, then?

If you're only going to take it to the point of not purchasing souvenirs, I wouldn't bother. It's a drop in the bucket. If the season doesn't begin as planned, I'm not watching anymore when it comes back, no matter what channel it's on. Not watching it on tv, not seeing the commercials, not being counted in the ratings. That's the only real way to hurt the NFL, ratings and advertising dollars.

RhymesayersDU
02-15-2011, 04:57 AM
If you're only going to take it to the point of not purchasing souvenirs, I wouldn't bother. It's a drop in the bucket. If the season doesn't begin as planned, I'm not watching anymore when it comes back, no matter what channel it's on. Not watching it on tv, not seeing the commercials, not being counted in the ratings. That's the only real way to hurt the NFL, ratings and advertising dollars.

Exactly.

That's why I always find the people who claim that they won't support the NFL as amusing. Because they're still going to watch the product on TV, and even if it's not directly coming out of their wallet, they're still gladly supporting the massive, billion-dollar TV contracts by seeing the games (and thus the commercials) on television.

And this is why the NFL is and will be king. Very few people will stop watching altogether. Very few.

That One Guy
02-15-2011, 05:48 AM
Exactly.

That's why I always find the people who claim that they won't support the NFL as amusing. Because they're still going to watch the product on TV, and even if it's not directly coming out of their wallet, they're still gladly supporting the massive, billion-dollar TV contracts by seeing the games (and thus the commercials) on television.

And this is why the NFL is and will be king. Very few people will stop watching altogether. Very few.

You make this sole point everytime the issue comes up. I don't care personally whether the NFL goes away, I've just sworn off giving them any more of my personal money. Do I care that they get sponsor money? Nope. If I'm drinking beer, it's usually along the lines of Corona. I give them no money, I don't support their sponsors, who cares if the tools trying to out-fan each other gives the NFL their money? I still have football for free on my tv on the backs of the ignorant waiting in line to pour their bucket of quarters into the pockets of millionaires begging to be accepted into the group.

I once had a Mercury and it was terrible. I'd never buy another in my life. Doesn't mean I'd say no if someone walked up and handed me the keys to a brand new one for free. You sheep keep my football free and I'll keep watching.

oubronco
02-15-2011, 06:22 AM
As much as a pro business, anti union guy I am, there is no way I would stand for this difference in negotiations in dollars...

Brandt offers a glimpse of what a rookie deal would look like under that proposal. The 9th overall pick in the draft would get $18 million for a 4-year contract. The NFL rejected that proposal. According to Brandt the league's proposal would pay the 9th pick in the draft $8.6 million over 5 years. The 9th pick in last year's draft, RB C.J. Spiller, received a 5-year, $28 million contract with $20.8 million guaranteed.

So they get far less than $2 million a year if they become the next Gale Sayers and be one of the best but have a short career. When you finally have the chance to make some bank, you have maybe one good contract left as a RB. Top 10 picks are because of how they produced in College and teams fell they are going to carry that over to the NFL.

Jarvis Moss says hello

bendog
02-15-2011, 12:37 PM
Eh. Does this mean we get two straight 2nd overall draftpicks? If so, awesome.

In the end, I can wait it out. CU will still be playing in the PAC 12so it won't hinder me much.

come on, where's your sporting spirit. I think we can go for whole enchalida in the Luck lottery!

bendog
02-15-2011, 12:39 PM
Caught a segment on msnbc about the debt loads that the owners are carrying. Owners having to pay the banks isn't a part the process that has been publicized much. Couldn't find an article with specifics, but it shed a little light on the owners stance.

No one forced the owners to hold up taxpayers for new stadiums and take on construction costs themselves.

cmhargrove
02-15-2011, 02:26 PM
You make this sole point everytime the issue comes up. I don't care personally whether the NFL goes away, I've just sworn off giving them any more of my personal money. Do I care that they get sponsor money? Nope. If I'm drinking beer, it's usually along the lines of Corona. I give them no money, I don't support their sponsors, who cares if the tools trying to out-fan each other gives the NFL their money? I still have football for free on my tv on the backs of the ignorant waiting in line to pour their bucket of quarters into the pockets of millionaires begging to be accepted into the group.

I once had a Mercury and it was terrible. I'd never buy another in my life. Doesn't mean I'd say no if someone walked up and handed me the keys to a brand new one for free. You sheep keep my football free and I'll keep watching.

Ok, i'll take the bait because i'm bored...

First, even if you like Mexican beers, there are many better choices than Corona (sorry, that was a little ad hominem so I should retract that remark).

Second, why are people who "give the nfl their money" considered "tools?" If you have such disdain for the NFL, maybe you should consider why you are here posting on the O-mane? Does that possibly show a crack in your heartfelt "principles" against the NFL?

Third, "bucket of quarters," and "begging to be accepted?" Really, did you think about this before you wrote it? The people around here are just regular dudes (and a few ladies) that love watching the violent sport we call football. Do you really think we are all just "begging to be accepted" by NFL owners? Really?

Fourth, people who enjoy football as entertainment and have discretionary income are "sheep?" That's your honest take? You spend your money on Corona, another guy on the "Sunday Ticket." That makes you better than him?

You have some valid anger, but this is a community, and calling others unnecessary names will generally reduce the validity of your arguments. We're all pissed, and fed up with greed, but hey, we also love football. My couple hundred bucks is nothing compared to what I will pay the big oil companies this year for gas (probably a more important discussion since it actually influences life and death for our military personnel).

RhymesayersDU
02-15-2011, 05:08 PM
You make this sole point everytime the issue comes up. I don't care personally whether the NFL goes away, I've just sworn off giving them any more of my personal money. Do I care that they get sponsor money? Nope. If I'm drinking beer, it's usually along the lines of Corona. I give them no money, I don't support their sponsors, who cares if the tools trying to out-fan each other gives the NFL their money? I still have football for free on my tv on the backs of the ignorant waiting in line to pour their bucket of quarters into the pockets of millionaires begging to be accepted into the group.

I once had a Mercury and it was terrible. I'd never buy another in my life. Doesn't mean I'd say no if someone walked up and handed me the keys to a brand new one for free. You sheep keep my football free and I'll keep watching.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. I keep banging this sole point because it's true. Anybody who watches the NFL feeds into the beast no matter how much they claim they don't. High ratings = $$$ for ads = huge, billion dollar contract for the NFL. That's really not debatable.

Sure, you can look at it as just your personal finances. In which case you're right. You have a right as a human being to spend your disposable income any way you choose, and if you choose to not spend it on the NFL, that's great.

But for one to say "I won't support the NFL if they lock out" is laughable at best. Because watching the NFL is supporting it, whether people want to admit it or not. And quite frankly, anybody saying they won't be back is a liar. Sure, there may be a minuscule percentage of people who really will drop the NFL from their lives. But they will be in the smallest of minorities. Everybody is going to be back in the Fall, whether we have a full season or not. And thus the cycle will begin again.

That One Guy
02-15-2011, 06:45 PM
Ok, i'll take the bait because i'm bored...

First, even if you like Mexican beers, there are many better choices than Corona (sorry, that was a little ad hominem so I should retract that remark).

Second, why are people who "give the nfl their money" considered "tools?" If you have such disdain for the NFL, maybe you should consider why you are here posting on the O-mane? Does that possibly show a crack in your heartfelt "principles" against the NFL?

Third, "bucket of quarters," and "begging to be accepted?" Really, did you think about this before you wrote it? The people around here are just regular dudes (and a few ladies) that love watching the violent sport we call football. Do you really think we are all just "begging to be accepted" by NFL owners? Really?

Fourth, people who enjoy football as entertainment and have discretionary income are "sheep?" That's your honest take? You spend your money on Corona, another guy on the "Sunday Ticket." That makes you better than him?

You have some valid anger, but this is a community, and calling others unnecessary names will generally reduce the validity of your arguments. We're all pissed, and fed up with greed, but hey, we also love football. My couple hundred bucks is nothing compared to what I will pay the big oil companies this year for gas (probably a more important discussion since it actually influences life and death for our military personnel).

First, let me commend you on the civility of your post. Quite the rare occurance around here.

As to the rest, I just think peoples' insistance on being the superfan have priced everyone else out of the situation. Is there any excuse for a standard t-shirt ($4) that gets stamped with an NFL logo to be $25? The stamp becomes advertising yet they mark it up exponentially.

Then you get to gameday costs. Sports to me were always a family affair. These days you'd get killed trying to do so (unless you catch the family seats, possibly) because everyone's waiting in line to throw a year's worth of tuition at season tickets. People complain about the "wine and cheese" crowd that have taken over the place. Who is to blame there? Those people who kept paying for those season tickets while the prices kept rising out of the everyday Joe's price range and into the range of the wine and cheese crowd.

Supply and demand is only kept in check as long as there's no unlimited demand. People here will complain about taxes, complain about tuition costs, complain about gas prices, etc, then turn around and throw $5k down for a single seat and for what? The football game isn't better from the stands. If you're there to appreciate football, you get a much better experience from your TV set where you can actually see. So why do people throw down all those thousands to see it? To be part of the crowd. The environment has surely lost it's glamour week after week, year after year, yet people continue to pay whatever price is asked by the teams to get into their stadium.

People who still do these things do them solely because they can. Then we often see many of them throwing the superfan card in each other's faces, trying to determine who is a true fan and who isn't... It all seems to come down to there being some vested interest in their fandom. That's what ruins the situation, lets things like the current labor deal, and everything else get out of hand. Until people start using their heads and realizing there is no excuse for plopping down thousands of dollars just to say "I was there", this can't go back to being about anything but the money.

And as for the beers, there's so many bad ones that I rarely break out from what I know. The heavier beers kill me so the so deemed Mexican piss is acceptable with a bit of lime.

Dudeskey
02-15-2011, 06:47 PM
Like I said in the other thread, the players will probably show a little backbone and stay away, but they'll buckle mid-season when the union dues they're collecting don't allow them to "make it rain" as heavy, probably some time in October.

This is why the owners have taken this stance. They know all they have to do is wait. If it wasn't for the TV money they'll be able to collect, the negotiations would actually be in progress. maybe the networks will try to get out of paying somehow

That One Guy
02-15-2011, 06:49 PM
Whatever helps you sleep at night. I keep banging this sole point because it's true. Anybody who watches the NFL feeds into the beast no matter how much they claim they don't. High ratings = $$$ for ads = huge, billion dollar contract for the NFL. That's really not debatable.

Sure, you can look at it as just your personal finances. In which case you're right. You have a right as a human being to spend your disposable income any way you choose, and if you choose to not spend it on the NFL, that's great.

But for one to say "I won't support the NFL if they lock out" is laughable at best. Because watching the NFL is supporting it, whether people want to admit it or not. And quite frankly, anybody saying they won't be back is a liar. Sure, there may be a minuscule percentage of people who really will drop the NFL from their lives. But they will be in the smallest of minorities. Everybody is going to be back in the Fall, whether we have a full season or not. And thus the cycle will begin again.

Well I get the point if they refuse to support it at all but you've pulled this out a time or two on me when I merely say I refuse to support them with my personal money. I'm not giving them any more. Then you pull out the "well that doesn't really matter because they're making so much over here" argument. That's well and good. If one organization wants to get rich on the backs of another, who am I to give a damn?

As kind of a follow on to my previous post, maybe if people would stop being scoffed at when they said they were going to stop buying NFL gear and whatnot, things would become more reasonable. Instead, someone makes a statement like that and people try to throw it in their faces. For what? To score a point by supposedly landing a shot? The NFL can only become better if less money is poured into it, anything helps. The NFL is making more now than they ever have and yet people just keep getting greedier. Let's reign in that beast wherever we can.

HAT
02-15-2011, 06:54 PM
Whatever helps you sleep at night. I keep banging this sole point because it's true. Anybody who watches the NFL feeds into the beast no matter how much they claim they don't. High ratings = $$$ for ads = huge, billion dollar contract for the NFL. That's really not debatable.


I don't care one way or another and think it's lame when people take that "I'll show them!" wannabe boycotting stance......But:

I watch the majority of my NFL at the sports bar. The game will be on whether or not I show up. Me sitting on a stool contributes nothing to the ratings, the NFL or it's advertisers.

Atwater His Ass
02-15-2011, 06:57 PM
I don't care one way or another and think it's lame when people take that "I'll show them!" wannabe boycotting stance......But:

I watch the majority of my NFL at the sports bar. The game will be on whether or not I show up. Me sitting on a stool contributes nothing to the ratings, the NFL or it's advertisers.

Are you really that naive? Where do you think the owners of that bar get the money to provide NFL games? You don't think the NFL gets a piece of that pie? Amazing.

That One Guy
02-15-2011, 07:00 PM
Are you really that naive? Where do you think the owners of that bar get the money to provide NFL games? You don't think the NFL gets a piece of that pie? Amazing.

One person doesn't make the difference. If they started to coordinate the effort then, yes, it would but if there's 15 guys at a bar or 16... no, that's not making a difference.

cmhargrove
02-15-2011, 07:09 PM
First, let me commend you on the civility of your post. Quite the rare occurance around here.

As to the rest, I just think peoples' insistance on being the superfan have priced everyone else out of the situation. Is there any excuse for a standard t-shirt ($4) that gets stamped with an NFL logo to be $25? The stamp becomes advertising yet they mark it up exponentially.

Then you get to gameday costs. Sports to me were always a family affair. These days you'd get killed trying to do so (unless you catch the family seats, possibly) because everyone's waiting in line to throw a year's worth of tuition at season tickets. People complain about the "wine and cheese" crowd that have taken over the place. Who is to blame there? Those people who kept paying for those season tickets while the prices kept rising out of the everyday Joe's price range and into the range of the wine and cheese crowd.

Supply and demand is only kept in check as long as there's no unlimited demand. People here will complain about taxes, complain about tuition costs, complain about gas prices, etc, then turn around and throw $5k down for a single seat and for what? The football game isn't better from the stands. If you're there to appreciate football, you get a much better experience from your TV set where you can actually see. So why do people throw down all those thousands to see it? To be part of the crowd. The environment has surely lost it's glamour week after week, year after year, yet people continue to pay whatever price is asked by the teams to get into their stadium.

People who still do these things do them solely because they can. Then we often see many of them throwing the superfan card in each other's faces, trying to determine who is a true fan and who isn't... It all seems to come down to there being some vested interest in their fandom. That's what ruins the situation, lets things like the current labor deal, and everything else get out of hand. Until people start using their heads and realizing there is no excuse for plopping down thousands of dollars just to say "I was there", this can't go back to being about anything but the money.

And as for the beers, there's so many bad ones that I rarely break out from what I know. The heavier beers kill me so the so deemed Mexican piss is acceptable with a bit of lime.

You make some good points. It's a shame that our nation's best game is getting jacked around by the owners and players at the expense of the fans. In the long run, i'll just go to fewer games, that's true.

I occasionally go to games because the entire event is worth the ticket. Just kind of like snowskiing or Disney World. The prices are absolutely outrageous, but i'll save my bucks and do it once a year.

I'm sorry that I will never experience what older fans did at "mile high" where the stands were ruled by fans, instead of just cash. But hey, it's capitalism - no one said it was perfect.

HAT
02-15-2011, 07:22 PM
Are you really that naive? Where do you think the owners of that bar get the money to provide NFL games? You don't think the NFL gets a piece of that pie? Amazing.

Game is on whether I'm there or not....that's the bottom line.

I can walk in at a kick-off, drink water, leave at 0:00 and not have given a dime to the bar, DTV, NFL, advertisers or otherwise counted for anything......Of course that's not what I do but it is entirely possible.