JREF invites homeopath charlatans to prove their claims, stages "overdose" demonstration

[Fedaykin]

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/jref-news/1208-feb5video.html

"To expose a scam industry that endangers and rips off millions of consumers a year, world-renowned conjuror, escape artist, and skeptic James Randi has put one million dollars on the line."

"In a video statement released at 10:23 a.m. (ET) today, Randi joined hundreds of consumer advocates in more than 25 countries in exposing so-called homeopathic remedies—scam medications with no active ingredients that are sold by major retailers with no warning to customers. Demonstrators around the world swallowed homeopathic products by the handful, in a worldwide day of action inspired by a lecture by James Randi in which he downed an entire bottle of homeopathic sleeping pills to show they had no effect."

Not huge breaking news, the JREF has had the million dollar challenge for a long time, but I'm glad to see them calling out those profiting greatly by defrauding people.

[epicSocialism4tw]

If anyone wants to buy, I have a homeopathic remedy for unhappiness, aging, ugliness, fatness, dorkiness, nerditude, and lonliness.

Just send me a non-refundable money order for 5,000.00 US dollars, and I'll put it in the mail.


Disclaimer: it may or may not work. Actually, the odds are pretty good that it will not work. But I'll put some convincing packaging around it.

[BroncoLifer]

James Randi is awesome. This isn't the first scam he's taken on.

[mhgaffney]

This is great.

It will be hilarious watching Randi lose a million.

Homeopathy is real.

Of course, Randi would never acknowledge defeat. He will attempt to slime his way out of losing.

Let us hope that the contest involves an independent team of judges -- so that Randi cannot evade defeat.

Let's hope he becomes impoverished and must take down his site, last bastion of the flat-earth society.

[TheElusiveKyleOrton]

If anyone wants to buy, I have a homeopathic remedy for unhappiness, aging, ugliness, fatness, dorkiness, nerditude, and lonliness.

Just send me a non-refundable money order for 5,000.00 US dollars, and I'll put it in the mail.


Disclaimer: it may or may not work. Actually, the odds are pretty good that it will not work. But I'll put some convincing packaging around it.

Why haven't you taken your remedy for all your maladies?

[DenverBrit]

This is great.

It will be hilarious watching Randi lose a million.

Homeopathy is real.

Of course, Randi would never acknowledge defeat. He will attempt to slime his way out of losing.

Let us hope that the contest involves an independent team of judges -- so that Randi cannot evade defeat.

Let's hope he becomes impoverished and must take down his site, last bastion of the flat-earth society.

I know a neurologist who specializes in a specific neurological disease and is considered a world expert on alternative medicine and his specialty.
His book is the bible on the topic. I asked him a few years ago if any of the alternatives he wrote about actually work. His response was simple. No!
Except for some who believe they are helped, but there is no clinical evidence whatsoever that 'alternative' medicine had any effect. That book lists every herbal remedy and various alternative 'remedies'.....the only concession was acupuncture.

Now I know why you dislike Randi so much, his website has been debunking your 911 money making scheme for years. Maybe you can make a buck from his challenge.
Go for it and get back with us when you prove something.

[Fedaykin]

This is great.

It will be hilarious watching Randi lose a million.

Homeopathy is real.

Of course, Randi would never acknowledge defeat. He will attempt to slime his way out of losing.

Let us hope that the contest involves an independent team of judges -- so that Randi cannot evade defeat.


Homeopathic "remedies" are nothing but very expensive WATER.


Let's hope he becomes impoverished and must take down his site, last bastion of the flat-earth society.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

[gyldenlove]

I know a neurologist who specializes in a specific neurological disease and is considered a world expert on alternative medicine and his specialty.
His book is the bible on the topic. I asked him a few years ago if any of the alternatives he wrote about actually work. His response was simple. No!
Except for some who believe they are helped, but there is no clinical evidence whatsoever that 'alternative' medicine had any effect. That book lists every herbal remedy and various alternative 'remedies'.....the only concession was acupuncture.

Now I know why you dislike Randi so much, his website has been debunking your 911 money making scheme for years. Maybe you can make a buck from his challenge.
Go for it and get back with us when you prove something.

If alternative medicine worked there would be an army, and I do mean an army of pharma execs patenting and selling it.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/the_economic_argument.png

[epicSocialism4tw]

If alternative medicine worked there would be an army, and I do mean an army of pharma execs patenting and selling it.

..aaaand there's the kicker.

[DenverBrit]

If alternative medicine worked there would be an army, and I do mean an army of pharma execs patenting and selling it.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/the_economic_argument.png

There's an entire industry making billions from saps like Gaff.
Pretty sure that if we dig deep enough, some are owned by Pharmaceutical companies.
When the Health-care industry accounts for 1/6th of the US GNP, you can bet they will re-package anything and call it a 'remedy.'

A remedy for profitability, not our health.

[mhgaffney]

]I know a neurologist who specializes in a specific neurological disease and is considered a world expert on alternative medicine and his specialty.
His book is the bible on the topic. I asked him a few years ago if any of the alternatives he wrote about actually work. His response was simple. No![/B]
Except for some who believe they are helped, but there is no clinical evidence whatsoever that 'alternative' medicine had any effect. That book lists every herbal remedy and various alternative 'remedies'.....the only concession was acupuncture.

Now I know why you dislike Randi so much, his website has been debunking your 911 money making scheme for years. Maybe you can make a buck from his challenge.
Go for it and get back with us when you prove something.


It's easy to find medical doctors who rant about alternative medicine. But in most cases you will find they have no direct knowledge of what they speak.

The MDs used to run down acupuncture -- which I hasten to add is an alternative form of medicine. Those who do lack the wisdom to appreciate that a modality that's been around for 2,000+ years might have lasted this long because it actually works.

BTW acupuncture does work. In China they do open heart surgery without anesthesia -- using only needles. It's mind boggling but true. The world is bigger than most of us know. Open your minds.

Nowadays, increasing numbers of MDs have seen the light about acupuncture. Many now incorporate it into their western practices. All well and good.

But there are still legions of idiots and morons out there. The health professions are full of closed minded egomaniacs. These were the idiots who screamed that vitamins were worthless -- and now we know they were wrong about that too.

I know a psychiatrist who came under attack from the AMA for prescribing vitamins to his patients. They tried to take away his license.

We live in dark times -- but hopefully things are improving.

As for homeopathy - ask yourself why does the body need trace minerals? There are 65+ trace elements we need for health. Many of these elements are highly poisonous in higher doses. Such as arsenic. But in extremely tiny amounts they are beneficial -- even necessary for health.

This is one of the principles underlying homeopathy.

[mhgaffney]

BTW it's quite humorous reading the various posts. You guys don't have a clue.

Its a fact that western MDS murder hundreds of thousands of people in the US every year. They commonly kill people by prescribing the wrong drug -- or too many drugs in combination. The synergistic effects of drugs are often lethal.

They do it via incompetence in surgery.

Many people go into the hospital for a minor problem -- and die from major complications caused by medical malpractice.

Probably no one ever died from acupuncture -- or homeopathy.

If you clowns really cared about the well being of Americans you would be screaming about the know- nothing medical doctors. Most of whom only treat symptoms rather than cure the underlying condition.

But hey -- what do I know?

[baja]

How Homeopathy Works

How does homeopathy work

Many of the homeopathic remedies are so diluted that according to the known laws of physics and chemistry, they couldn't possibly have any effect. Once you get beyond a certain point-24x or 12c -there is probably not even one single molecule of the original active substance remaining. This fact is often pointed to by critics of homeopathy as they dismiss the effect of homeopathy as merely due to placebo effect.

And yet, according to homeopathic doctrine and experience, the more diluted the solution, the more potent it is. Homeopaths contend that the remedies work and they see no reason to stop using them simply because we do not understand how they work. They often argue that pharmacologists cannot explain exactly how most conventional drugs work. For example, even aspirin is not fully understood in terms of how it works, but physicians have no difficulty in recommending its use. Over the years several theories have been proposed to explain the action on homeopathic potentization.

Hormesis

The effects of micro-doses have been known for a long time, and there are a number of examples that support the idea that very diluted concentrations of a substance will have a measurable and sometimes profound effect. Scientists call this phenomenon: hormesis. Scientists from Michigan State University have shown how hormesis work in nature. They used micro-doses of a fertilizer to stimulate crop production. In a dose equivalent to a 9x dilution, the fertilizer increased tomato yield by 30 percent, carrots were 21 percent bigger, and corn yield increased by 25 percent.

Our own bodies secrete minute amounts of hormones that have powerful effects. Thyroid hormone is present in our blood at only 1 part per 10 billion-yet this is enough to regulate the rate of our entire metabolism. Many animal studies show that low doses of some substances elicit a beneficial response while high doses are harmful. This phenomenon has been documented to occur with radiation, antibiotics, and heavy metals.

Pheromones

Pheromones are powerful aromatic hormone-like substances that creatures secrete to attract one another. One molecule of moth pheromone is so potent, it will attract another moth from miles away and trigger a cascade of physical reactions. Though well documented, the exact mechanism for pheromones remains unknown.

Homeopathic Remedies Work in Spiritual/Energy Plane and Not in Physical Plane

Homeopathic remedies are believed to work in the spiritual plane as opposed to the physical plane as we are used to think and measure. Hahnemann believed that dilution and succussion released a spirit- like power that worked on the spiritual level of the vital force in humans. We are familiar with the formerly invisible, immeasurable, unknowable energy forms, such as electromagnetic radiation and subatomic particles. Magnets exerted their force long before science could explain the mechanism. Physicists are still trying to explain gravity and the nature of matter, still discovering phenomena such as the "strong force" and the "weak force." Homeopathy is an energy medicine, as are acupuncture and therapeutic touch. Homeopaths believe that although the physical molecules of the original substance may be gone, dilution and succussion leaves something behind-an imprint of its essence, or its energy pattern-that gives it a kind of healing charge. Potentization does not occur if you simply dilute the substance, even if you dilute it repeatedly. Nor does it occur if you only shake the substance vigorously. There is something about each process that builds sequentially upon the other, causing the power to be retained and progressively intensified.

But how does the information in such a minute amount of substance get transferred to the body? Some theorists suggest the repeated succussion creates an electrochemical pattern that is stored in the water carrier and then spreads like liquid crystallization through the body's own water; others say the dilution process triggers an electromagnetic imprinting that directly affects the electro- magnetic field of the body. This concept is used in other therapies also. For example, Ayurveda suggests taking water that has been potentizated by precious metals such as gold. The water is believed to possess curative power as a result of coming in contact with gold and other gemstones although no molecular transfer takes place. The healing power of crystals and magnets are believed to come from their effect on the energy pattern or vibration frequency. So, the suggestion of the homeopathic remedies as working on the energy plane may not be as far fetched as we may think at the first glance.

Homeopathic Remedies Activate the Vital Force

Homeopaths believe that it is the energy or "vibrational pattern" of the remedy, rather than the chemical content, that stimulates the healing by activating what Hahnemann called the Vital force. Vital force is the healing power or energy that exists within us all. It is called by the name Chi by Chinese and Prana by Indian Ayurveda. The vital force fuels the mind, body, emotions and mind. It keeps us healthy and balanced. When the balance of the vital force is disturbed by factors such as stress, pollution, improper diet and lack of exercise, it becomes weakened resulting in the person getting sick.

Scientists who accept the potential benefits of homeopathic theory suggest several theories to explain how highly diluted homeopathic medicines may act. Using recent developments in quantum physics, they have proposed that electromagnetic energy in the medicines may interact with the body on some level. Researchers in physical chemistry have proposed the "memory of water" theory, whereby the structure of the water-alcohol solution is altered by the medicine during the process of dilution and retains this structure even after none of the actual substance remains.

http://www.endo-resolved.com/homeopathy-works.html

[Fedaykin]

How Homeopathy Works

It doesn't.


Fixed for you.

[Fedaykin]

So I see two of our resident woo worshippers have chimed in.

Where's the evidence that homeopathy works? A simple double blind test would demonstrate its efficacy. Any competent scientist/researcher could conduct such a test.

Claim your $1,000,000!

[DenverBrit]

BTW it's quite humorous reading the various posts. You guys don't have a clue.

Its a fact that western MDS murder hundreds of thousands of people in the US every year. They commonly kill people by prescribing the wrong drug -- or too many drugs in combination. The synergistic effects of drugs are often lethal.

They do it via incompetence in surgery.

Many people go into the hospital for a minor problem -- and die from major complications caused by medical malpractice.

Probably no one ever died from acupuncture -- or homeopathy.

If you clowns really cared about the well being of Americans you would be screaming about the know- nothing medical doctors. Most of whom only treat symptoms rather than cure the underlying condition.

But hey -- what do I know?

Not much, but if you think you have proof, go take the money from Randi. He's offering you a million to simply prove it works, which should be easy for someone like you who has all the answers.

[mhgaffney]

You guys are so closed minded - - that there's no point in trying to have a discussion. I have personally experienced a healing based on homeopathy. But I am not going to tell you about it. I'm no missionary. I despise missionaries. It's of no consequence to me what you think.

However, before I go, I will leave you with some food for thought:

Life has many surprises for us. But it's obvious you guys have not lived long enough to appreciate this.

One of these days -- some -- perhaps most -- of you will have a health crisis. You will go to a medical doctor and will be shocked to discover he cannot help you.

If it's a heart problem, or an eye problem, or a broken bone, maybe you will get help. These are areas where western medicine has a record of success.

However, there are thousands of other conditions for which western allopathic has no answer. The doctors simply do not have a clue. They won't be able to diagnose the issue -- and will simply give you drugs to alleviate the symptoms.

This might bring some relief -- for a time -- but the chances are good it will not really help -- and could even make things worse. Drugs (medicines) often make us sicker than before.

When this fails they may advise surgery. BEWARE!

At this point you will be on your own-- and if you care about your own health -- you'll be forced to open your mind and try some alternative modalities.

If you refuse to do this- - you may end up six feet under - before your time. This is the price of willful ignorance.

So don't be stupid. Life is a journey of self discovery -- and getting sick and well again is part of the trip.

Good luck.

MHG

[Fedaykin]

You guys are so closed minded - - that there's no point in trying to have a discussion. I have personally experienced a healing based on homeopathy. But I am not going to tell you about it. I'm no missionary. I despise missionaries. It's of no consequence to me what you think.

However, before I go, I will leave you with some food for thought:

Life has many surprises for us. But it's obvious you guys have not lived long enough to appreciate this.

One of these days -- some -- perhaps most -- of you will have a health crisis. You will go to a medical doctor and will be shocked to discover he cannot help you.

If it's a heart problem, or an eye problem, or a broken bone, maybe you will get help. These are areas where western medicine has a record of success.

However, there are thousands of other conditions for which western allopathic has no answer. The doctors simply do not have a clue. They won't be able to diagnose the issue -- and will simply give you drugs to alleviate the symptoms.

This might bring some relief -- for a time -- but the chances are good it will not really help -- and could even make things worse. Drugs (medicines) often make us sicker than before.

When this fails they may advise surgery. BEWARE!

At this point you will be on your own-- and if you care about your own health -- you'll be forced to open your mind and try some alternative modalities.

If you refuse to do this- - you may end up six feet under - before your time. This is the price of willful ignorance.

So don't be stupid. Life is a journey of self discovery -- and getting sick and well again is part of the trip.

Good luck.

MHG

More anecdotal bull**** and handwavum.

I'm not at all closed minded. Show me evidence that it works, and I'll accept it. Open minded does not mean "believe whatever you're told".

[baja]

Fixed for you.

There was a great line in the movie Avatar from the queen of the indigenous people in response to the hero's declaration he wanted to learn the ways of her people. She said, " We have tried to teach your people our ways before but it's hard to add knowledge to an already full mind."

You might ponder that.

[Fedaykin]

There was a great line in the movie Avatar from the queen of the indigenous people in response to the hero's declaration he wanted to learn the ways of her people. She said, " We have tried to teach your people our ways before but it's hard to add knowledge to an already full mind."

You might ponder that.

I'm feeling like a broken record here, but once again: all that's required is evidence which is simple to produce. Either homeopathic remedies really do what they claim or they don't. It's a simple matter to test them. If they worked, there would be ample evidence to that effect -- just like there is for real medicines.

[baja]

So I see two of our resident woo worshippers have chimed in.

Where's the evidence that homeopathy works? A simple double blind test would demonstrate its efficacy. Any competent scientist/researcher could conduct such a test.

Claim your $1,000,000!

It's quite clear there is no amount of evidence that will sway one as sure of his beliefs as you. Are you aware that belief beyond a doubt without allowing at least the possibility of there being something over looked is a sure sign of stupidity. It's clear you prize your mind by the way you write yet you show your stupidity with almost every post. Funny how that works isn't it.

[baja]

More anecdotal bull**** and handwavum.

I'm not at all closed minded. Show me evidence that it works, and I'll accept it. Open minded does not mean "believe whatever you're told".

You didn't even read what I posted & linked did you.

[Fedaykin]

It's quite clear there is no amount of evidence that will sway one as sure of his beliefs as you. Are you aware that belief beyond a doubt without allowing at least the possibility of there being something over looked is a sure sign of stupidity. It's clear you prize your mind by the way you write yet you show your stupidity with almost every post. Funny how that works isn't it.

I've already stated the evidence that would sway me. That you are unable to provide it is your failing, not mine.

[Fedaykin]

You didn't even read what I posted & linked did you.

I'm quite well aware of what homeopaths claim their "remedies" do and how they do it. Setting aside the absurdity of their claimed mechanism -- you're still avoiding the critical part: evidence derived from properly designed tests which demonstrate their efficacy.

One last time: where's the evidence?

[baja]

I'm feeling like a broken record here, but once again: all that's required is evidence which is simple to produce. Either homeopathic remedies really do what they claim or they don't. It's a simple matter to test them. If they worked, there would be ample evidence to that effect -- just like there is for real medicines.


There are tens of thousands of testimonies from people that have received relief and cures from practicing homeopathy. A simple Google search will offer much convincing. Read about Bach Flower therapy.


http://www.bachflowertherapy.com/


http://www.edwardbach.org/

[Fedaykin]

There are tens of thousands of testimonies from people that have received relief and cures from practicing homeopathy. A simple Google search will offer much convincing. Read about Bach Flower therapy.


http://www.bachflowertherapy.com/


http://www.edwardbach.org/

I can also provide tens of thousands of testimonies, found on Google, that say lizard men are in control of our government along with thousands of other absurdities.

This is why anecdotes are not evidence.

[baja]

I'm quite well aware of what homeopaths claim their "remedies" do and how they do it. Setting aside the absurdity of their claimed mechanism -- you're still avoiding the critical part: evidence derived from properly designed tests which demonstrate their efficacy.

One last time: where's the evidence?

I am talking about the thousands of people that claim cures not the practitioner that you will accuse of having an agenda never mind the long history that the remedy has persisted. Were it ineffective don't you think it would have gone the way of snake oil by now.

There will come a time when these times will be considered the dark ages of science.

[Fedaykin]

I am talking about the thousands of people that claim cures not the practitioner that you will accuse of having an agenda never mind the long history that the remedy has persisted. Were it ineffective don't you think it would have gone the way of snake oil by now.

There will come a time when these times will be considered the dark ages of science.

LOL

Keep clinging to those anecdotes. If there were any truth to their claims, these practitioners would have the evidence for it. Luckily for them, there are millions of gullible idiots out there like you just waiting to buy water at $100/oz because some schmuck on the Internet claimed it cured them -- and they have convinced the government to allow this fraud to continue unhindered.

[baja]

I can also provide tens of thousands of testimonies, found on Google, that say lizard men are in control of our government along with thousands of other absurdities.

This is why anecdotes are not evidence.

What I see of the history of science is one long break through of discovering it had been wrong in the past. Todays science will be proven wrong tomorrow just as yesterday's science has been proven wrong today. This is where open mindedness comes into play. Have you bothered to read up on the subject?

[Fedaykin]

What I see of the history of science is one long break through of discovering it had been wrong in the past. Todays science will be proven wrong tomorrow just as yesterday's science has been proven wrong today. This is where open mindedness comes into play. Have you bothered to read up on the subject?

You know how new things are discovered and old ideas are thrown out?

EVIDENCE!

[baja]

LOL

Keep clinging to those anecdotes. If there were any truth to their claims, these practitioners would have the evidence for it. Luckily for them, there are millions of gullible idiots out there like you just waiting to buy water at $100/oz because some schmuck on the Internet claimed it cured them -- and they have convinced the government to allow this fraud to continue unhindered.


I have experienced relief from depression from taking Bach's Flower Essences. That is my proof.

BTW the cost is about 10 dollars for most remedies.

[baja]

You know how new things are discovered and old ideas are thrown out?

EVIDENCE!

define evidence

[baja]

Let's leave it here; I will continue to use homeopathy as one protocol for my personal healing and you go where you like for yours.

[Fedaykin]

define evidence

Statistically relevant results from a double blind test conducted with proper controls, procedures and other elements of a well designed test (I'm no research scientist but I'm sure you get the idea).

In other words, the same evidence that real medicine has to demonstrate.

[Fedaykin]

Let's leave it here; I will continue to use homeopathy as one protocol for my personal healing and you go where you like for yours.

I have no problem with you wasting your money on overpriced water.

I do have a problem with "practitioners" defrauding people and endangering their lives by claiming their fake medicine is a realistic alternative to real medicine.

[Fedaykin]

And now, my geoprocessing task no longer need babysitting, so I'm off.

[baja]

n the early 1990s on BBC2's QED, opponents of homeopathy claimed it was due to the placebo effect, and that in carefully conducted double blind tests it had failed. The programme makers then conducted an experiment to answer these criticisms. Most dairy cows suffer from mastitis (infection of the milk ducts) from time to time, treatment for which involves the vet and antibiotics, during which the milk has to be discarded. You cannot fool a cow with the placebo effect so, at the suggestion of a homeopathic vet, a large herd was divided into two groups, each with its own water trough. From two similar but suitably marked containers a liquid was poured into each trough (ie only one dose was given) and two sealed envelopes carrying the names of the substances added were given to the programme makers for safekeeping. Some weeks later, the farmer was asked about the incidence of mastitis. He explained that the incidence in one group had remained as before, whereas in the other group only one cow had required antibiotic treatment. The envelopes were opened and it was shown that the second group's trough had been treated with a homeopathic remedy and the other with just distilled water or placebo.
Soroush Ebrahimi, (licenced homeopath) South Woodham Ferrers

http://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandqueries/query/0,,-9542,00.html

[mhgaffney]

A parting shot:

Sure there is some fraud in alternative medicine -- as in any field -- because some people are dishonest. But it's small potatoes compared with the fraud now taking place on Wall Street and on the part of the national security state.

Just to give one example, on September 10, 2001 Sec of defense Rumsfeld admitted that the Dept of Defense could not account for $2.3 TRILLION of YOUR tax dollars.

Next to this, any corruption in the field of alternative medicine is a mere blip.

You guys have your priorities out of whack.

Integrate this: According to hearings conducted by Sen Carl Levin -- as much a $1 Trillion of drug money is laundered every year through the major banks. Thew hearings were conducted in 2000-- so -- 11 years later -- the numbers are probably low.

In fact, without the washed drug money -- the banks would not have survived the 2008 meltdown. It provided much needed liquidity.

In sum, you guys are barking up the wrong tree. If you want to save the American people from fraud and corruption -- then get wise about the banksters who have stolen your Congress, your white house -- and have submerged the US Constitution.

Amen. (good bye)

[kappys]

I think there needs to be a divide between homeopathy and herbal medicines. Many herbal medicines do "work" - however very often the active ingredients need to be taken at high doses to function. Unfortunately the world of herbs is poorly regulated so many preparations never contain the amount of ingredient needed to have any beneficial effect. In addition herbs are not without unwanted side effects which can be devastating and just as bad as any pharmaceutical.

As for homeopathy I am quite skeptical - however the relatively new phenomenon of hormesis - best studied in plants and insects - I am unaware of mammalian studies though the last time I looked into the topic was about 2 years ago. This promotes the idea that trace levels of sometimes toxic elements can have a mild beneficial effect (about a 20-30% maximum benefit). The best example are extremely low doses of plant growth hormone inhibitors that actually promote growth at trace doses about 20% more than baseline. The idea being that these low doses promote an as yet unclear body reaction that not only compensates for the prescence of the agent but actually overcompensates to a degree.

Neertheless more testing is needed. The roots of homeopathy aren't based in this sort of scientific rigor and they need to be studies carefully. That modern science is perhaps starting to justify these agents does not mean one should take them cart blanche. It is unclear what doses are effective vs. toxic with these agents(the 1:10,000,000 concentrations used at times do not fit the hormesis models which use 100-1000 fold dilutions). In addition which agents exhibit these effects and which do not are unclear as well.

[Fedaykin]

n the early 1990s on BBC2's QED, opponents of homeopathy claimed it was due to the placebo effect, and that in carefully conducted double blind tests it had failed. The programme makers then conducted an experiment to answer these criticisms. Most dairy cows suffer from mastitis (infection of the milk ducts) from time to time, treatment for which involves the vet and antibiotics, during which the milk has to be discarded. You cannot fool a cow with the placebo effect so, at the suggestion of a homeopathic vet, a large herd was divided into two groups, each with its own water trough. From two similar but suitably marked containers a liquid was poured into each trough (ie only one dose was given) and two sealed envelopes carrying the names of the substances added were given to the programme makers for safekeeping. Some weeks later, the farmer was asked about the incidence of mastitis. He explained that the incidence in one group had remained as before, whereas in the other group only one cow had required antibiotic treatment. The envelopes were opened and it was shown that the second group's trough had been treated with a homeopathic remedy and the other with just distilled water or placebo.
Soroush Ebrahimi, (licenced homeopath) South Woodham Ferrers

http://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandqueries/query/0,,-9542,00.html

LMAO Even if we are to take a newspaper clipping at its own word let's take a look at this. The summary of this article is:

* Proper scientific tests were done, which shows the homeopathic "remidies" lack of efficacy.
* After this, some TV program produces staged their own "test" completely uncontrolled test and it "worked".

Are you really that gullible Baja? Oh wait, you buy into miracle mineral supplements, people who live without eating and water as a cure for disease -- so we already know the answer to that question.

[Fedaykin]

n the early 1990s on BBC2's QED, opponents of homeopathy claimed it was due to the placebo effect, and that in carefully conducted double blind tests it had failed. The programme makers then conducted an experiment to answer these criticisms. Most dairy cows suffer from mastitis (infection of the milk ducts) from time to time, treatment for which involves the vet and antibiotics, during which the milk has to be discarded. You cannot fool a cow with the placebo effect so, at the suggestion of a homeopathic vet, a large herd was divided into two groups, each with its own water trough. From two similar but suitably marked containers a liquid was poured into each trough (ie only one dose was given) and two sealed envelopes carrying the names of the substances added were given to the programme makers for safekeeping. Some weeks later, the farmer was asked about the incidence of mastitis. He explained that the incidence in one group had remained as before, whereas in the other group only one cow had required antibiotic treatment. The envelopes were opened and it was shown that the second group's trough had been treated with a homeopathic remedy and the other with just distilled water or placebo.
Soroush Ebrahimi, (licenced homeopath) South Woodham Ferrers

http://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandqueries/query/0,,-9542,00.html

HA! I just took a closer look at that link and it's basically Yahoo! Answers done by the Guardian.

Is that the best attempt at evidence you can come up with -- anecdotal evidence provided by completely biased sources?

[Fedaykin]

A parting shot:

Sure there is some fraud in alternative medicine -- as in any field -- because some people are dishonest. But it's small potatoes compared with the fraud now taking place on Wall Street and on the part of the national security state.

Just to give one example, on September 10, 2001 Sec of defense Rumsfeld admitted that the Dept of Defense could not account for $2.3 TRILLION of YOUR tax dollars.

Next to this, any corruption in the field of alternative medicine is a mere blip.

You guys have your priorities out of whack.

Integrate this: According to hearings conducted by Sen Carl Levin -- as much a $1 Trillion of drug money is laundered every year through the major banks. Thew hearings were conducted in 2000-- so -- 11 years later -- the numbers are probably low.

In fact, without the washed drug money -- the banks would not have survived the 2008 meltdown. It provided much needed liquidity.

In sum, you guys are barking up the wrong tree. If you want to save the American people from fraud and corruption -- then get wise about the banksters who have stolen your Congress, your white house -- and have submerged the US Constitution.

Amen. (good bye)

Hilarious!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/08/0330chewbacca.jpg/200px-0330chewbacca.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense

[DenverBrit]

* Proper scientific tests were done, which shows the homeopathic "remidies" lack of efficacy.


This is the issue.
Individuals who believe, will swear they are cured or helped.
The Neurologist I mentioned in an earlier post, will make the same point:
Some will feel the benefits, but there is no evidence, based upon clinical study, that theses 'remedies' work. None at all.

Which is why Randi will risk a million bucks.....he knows there is no scientific evidence that will put his cash at risk.

[DenverBrit]

A parting shot:

Sure there is some fraud in alternative medicine -- as in any field -- because some people are dishonest. But it's small potatoes compared with the fraud now taking place on Wall Street and on the part of the national security state.

Just to give one example, on September 10, 2001 Sec of defense Rumsfeld admitted that the Dept of Defense could not account for $2.3 TRILLION of YOUR tax dollars.

Next to this, any corruption in the field of alternative medicine is a mere blip.

You guys have your priorities out of whack.

Integrate this: According to hearings conducted by Sen Carl Levin -- as much a $1 Trillion of drug money is laundered every year through the major banks. Thew hearings were conducted in 2000-- so -- 11 years later -- the numbers are probably low.

In fact, without the washed drug money -- the banks would not have survived the 2008 meltdown. It provided much needed liquidity.

In sum, you guys are barking up the wrong tree. If you want to save the American people from fraud and corruption -- then get wise about the banksters who have stolen your Congress, your white house -- and have submerged the US Constitution.

Amen. (good bye)

So in essence, you're saying that homeopathic medicine isn't as big a fraud as government.
Ok, I agree, so let's call it what it is: Fraud, but not on a governmental scale.

[mhgaffney]

You guys never listen.

That is NOT what I wrote.

1. homeopathy does work. The principles are sound. It is however a difficult form of medicine to practice for a variety of reasons.

2. individual practitioners may engage in fraud. It's true of any field. This does not mean the principles on which the field is based are invalid.

Get a brain, guys. Don't be stupid. As I said -- willful ignorance in the area of health care can put you six feet under -- before your time.

[Fedaykin]

You guys never listen.

That is NOT what I wrote.

1. homeopathy does work. The principles are sound. It is however a difficult form of medicine to practice for a variety of reasons.


There you go making claims without any evidence. How many times do I have to ask? A bald assertion that something works, especially from someone like you, is entirely insufficient.

And by the way, to anyone with even a basic understanding of physics, chemistry and biology, the "principals" of homeopathy are, quite frankly, absurd. However, simple to produce (and reproduce) evidence (as previously described) would certainly override that.

In fact, evidence of the efficacy of homeopathy would induce legions of scientists to, probably quite literally, trip over themselves trying to be the first to explain why. Someone proving the claimed mechanism of homeopathy would earn themselves a Nobel prize in chemistry, biology, physics and probably several other categories because it would be overturning most of our current Theories.

[gyldenlove]

There you go making claims without any evidence. How many times do I have to ask? A bald assertion that something works, especially from someone like you, is entirely insufficient.

And by the way, to anyone with even a basic understanding of physics, chemistry and biology, the "principals" of homeopathy are, quite frankly, absurd. However, simple to produce (and reproduce) evidence (as previously described) would certainly override that.

In fact, evidence of the efficacy of homeopathy would induce legions of scientists to, probably quite literally, trip over themselves trying to be the first to explain why. Someone proving the claimed mechanism of homeopathy would earn themselves a Nobel prize in chemistry, biology, physics and probably several other categories because it would be overturning most of our current Theories.

It is just like the people who say well my grandpa lived to be 100 years old and he was never sick, and he smoked 2 packs of cigarettes a day, never worked out, ate donuts all the time and was a drunk.

There is no denying that some people may in deed live healthy lives with bad personal habits, but on average you are worse off. Just because someone got well after taking homeopathic medicine doesn't mean it works, in fact the army of terminal cancer patients who seek out alternative treatments and die anyway is good evidence to the contrary.

[alkemical]

Frauds have hurt a genuine study of medicine. I've used tinctures of plant stuff, and even used natural remedies to cure an abscess in my tooth.

it is what it is.

[Rohirrim]

There you go making claims without any evidence. How many times do I have to ask? A bald assertion that something works, especially from someone like you, is entirely insufficient.

And by the way, to anyone with even a basic understanding of physics, chemistry and biology, the "principals" of homeopathy are, quite frankly, absurd. However, simple to produce (and reproduce) evidence (as previously described) would certainly override that.

In fact, evidence of the efficacy of homeopathy would induce legions of scientists to, probably quite literally, trip over themselves trying to be the first to explain why. Someone proving the claimed mechanism of homeopathy would earn themselves a Nobel prize in chemistry, biology, physics and probably several other categories because it would be overturning most of our current Theories.

For those of us who know nothing about it, what are the principles of homeopathy?

[Fedaykin]

For those of us who know nothing about it, what are the principles of homeopathy?

The basic premise of homeopathy is:

* That water molecules have "memory" of whatever was dissolved in them.
* That the body will react in the opposite way to a substance if it is diluted (even to the point where the particular dose contains none of the substance) and shook up enough.

An example would be someone who's allergic to wheat who could be "treated" with water prepared by the following process.

* Take a bottle of water
* Add wheat extract.
* Shake it up
* Dilute it again
* Repeat until the desired dilution is achieved (possible even until no wheat extract remains in the doses of water).

Complete quackery.

[Fedaykin]

Frauds have hurt a genuine study of medicine. I've used tinctures of plant stuff, and even used natural remedies to cure an abscess in my tooth.

it is what it is.

"Natural" remedies are not necessarily quackery. Even today most medicines are derived from living things. For example, some herbal remedies are actually real, but the vast majority are just crushed up plants with no real medicinal qualities. Aspirin, for example, could (and historically was) be made as an "herbal remedy". It's just extract from tree bark. Aspirin processed with modern technology is simply more potent.

That said, that you think a particular natural remedy cured your abscess doesn't mean it actually did.

[alkemical]

"Natural" remedies are not necessarily quackery. Even today most medicines are derived from living things. For example, some herbal remedies are actually real, but the vast majority are just crushed up plants with no real medicinal qualities. Aspirin, for example, could (and historically was) be made as an "herbal remedy". It's just extract from tree bark. Aspirin processed with modern technology is simply more potent.

That said, that you think a particular natural remedy cured your abscess doesn't mean it actually did.

As I stated: it is what it is. I personally have a balanced approach to medicine. I feel medical care and rx drugs are necessary. I also feel that herbal and certain homeopatic "solutions" do work. I wish more traditonal medicine would really validate which herbs do what, how you can use them safely, etc.

I don't think buying vibrationally charged water is fair (I mean, you can make it yourself anyway). But I think stinging nettle, or mullien is great at helping my sinus issues (as well as local honey, the darker the better).

I know that I can't afford medical care unless serious, so nutrition and an understanding of plants, herbs - their proerties, etc...to give my body the best ability to keep me healthy.

But, i'm a fan of the old ways as much as i'm a fan of all the new directions being explored in science and medicine.

I'd like a good blend of natural medicine, with the latest advancements in sci/tech.

[baja]

LMAO Even if we are to take a newspaper clipping at its own word let's take a look at this. The summary of this article is:

* Proper scientific tests were done, which shows the homeopathic "remidies" lack of efficacy.
* After this, some TV program produces staged their own "test" completely uncontrolled test and it "worked".

Are you really that gullible Baja? Oh wait, you buy into miracle mineral supplements, people who live without eating and water as a cure for disease -- so we already know the answer to that question.

Notice I do not ridicule you for your inflexible thinking. Were we having this argument around 400 BC you would be the guy smugly ridiculing the spherical earth theory.

[mhgaffney]

One of the homeopathic principles is that like heals like.

This principle is not limited to medicine. You can find it in psychology -- and even in literature.

Here's an example: In Dostoevsky's great novel CRIME AND PUNISHMENT, the hero Raskolnikov experiences a deep personal healing.

Raskolnikov in Russian means "split" which tells us that the hero is deeply wounded on an emotional/psychological level. In fact, the hero has been split off from his feminine side.

How does the healing happen? Raskolnikov kills a witch by cleaving her head with an axe. The witch stands for the violent abusive parent responsible for damaging the young male child.

The violent act of splitting the witch's skull is restorative. The story ends with Raskolnikov reunited with his lost love -- a young woman who represents his feminine side.

You clowns will scoff -- but it's just your own ignorance speaking.

There are many more examples of this type of psychological healing discussed in the many books by Maries Louis von Franz, who was Carl Jung's protege at the Jung Institute in Zurich.

Von Franz teamed up with Jung's wife Emma -- in writing the classic psychological study of the Grail -- aptly titled the Grail Legend.

[Fedaykin]

Notice I do not ridicule you for your inflexible thinking. Were we having this argument around 400 BC you would be the guy smugly ridiculing the spherical earth theory.

I call it like I see it. You accept things, even fantastical things, without a shred of actual evidence. This is a symptom of gullibility, not "flexible thinking".

[Fedaykin]

One of the homeopathic principles is that like heals like.

This principle is not limited to medicine. You can find it in psychology -- and even in literature.

Here's an example: In Dostoevsky's great novel CRIME AND PUNISHMENT, the hero Raskolnikov experiences a deep personal healing.

Raskolnikov in Russian means "split" which tells us that the hero is deeply wounded on an emotional/psychological level. In fact, the hero has been split off from his feminine side.

How does the healing happen? Raskolnikov kills a witch by cleaving her head with an axe. The witch stands for the violent abusive parent responsible for damaging the young male child.

The violent act of splitting the witch's skull is restorative. The story ends with Raskolnikov reunited with his lost love -- a young woman who represents his feminine side.

You clowns will scoff -- but it's just your own ignorance speaking.

There are many more examples of this type of psychological healing discussed in the many books by Maries Louis von Franz, who was Carl Jung's protege at the Jung Institute in Zurich.

Von Franz teamed up with Jung's wife Emma -- in writing the classic psychological study of the Grail -- aptly titled the Grail Legend.

Now you're trying to support your claims by citing FICTION?!?!? Jumpin' Jehoshaphat, what is wrong with your brain? Did you drop a lot of acid?

[Fedaykin]

On the subject my my supposed "inflexible thinking" I'm in agreement with Issac Asimov about what proper flexibility of thinking requires:

"I believe in evidence. I believe in observation, measurement, and reasoning, confirmed by independent observers. I'll believe anything, no matter how wild and ridiculous, if there is evidence for it. The wilder and more ridiculous something is, however, the firmer and more solid the evidence will have to be."

(my emphasis)

[The Lone Bolt]

On the subject my my supposed "inflexible thinking" I'm in agreement with Issac Asimov about what proper flexibility of thinking requires:

"I believe in evidence. I believe in observation, measurement, and reasoning, confirmed by independent observers. I'll believe anything, no matter how wild and ridiculous, if there is evidence for it. The wilder and more ridiculous something is, however, the firmer and more solid the evidence will have to be."

(my emphasis)

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I agree.

[baja]

I call it like I see it. You accept things, even fantastical things, without a shred of actual evidence. This is a symptom of gullibility, not "flexible thinking".

No my evidence is from the testimonies of people I know personally and from my own personal experience. I will take personal results every time over your "scientific" double blind test.

Did I take a homeopathy therapy? Yes

Did I have noticeable positive results? Yes

That is proof enough for me.

Do you believe what your body tells you?

[mhgaffney]

Now you're trying to support your claims by citing FICTION?!?!? Jumpin' Jehoshaphat, what is wrong with your brain? Did you drop a lot of acid?

We are talking about one of the masterpieces of western literature and all you can say is fiction?

Go ahead. Scoff your way through life. You are free.

But it's measure of ignorance -- nothing more.

Keep it up. You'll end up like W*gs.

[Fedaykin]

No my evidence is from the testimonies of people I know personally and from my own personal experience. I will take personal results every time over your "scientific" double blind test.

Did I take a homeopathy therapy? Yes

Did I have noticeable positive results? Yes

That is proof enough for me.



The placebo effect is well documented.



Do you believe what your body tells you?

Not when it comes to matters of determining fact. The body and mind are notoriously bad at being objective (see the aforementioned placebo effect). This is why we've developed protocols such as double blind tests.

[Fedaykin]

We are talking about one of the masterpieces of western literature and all you can say is fiction?

Go ahead. Scoff your way through life. You are free.

But it's measure of ignorance -- nothing more.

Keep it up. You'll end up like W*gs.

CnP is scientifically accurate because it's considered a masterpiece of fiction? Go drop some more acid.

[mhgaffney]

The principles of homeopathy are universal principles. They apply across the board. That's what I'm telling you.

They apply in psychology as well as in medicine. Literature is about life- -hence it embraces human psychology.

I already gave you an example from medicine. Why does the body need minerals in trace amounts?

Trace means very very very tiny amounts. This should tell you that small is not necessarily insignificant. Indeed, as EF Schumacher said: SMALL IS BEAUTIFUL!

Think small.

Without trace elements your body will not function well -- and ultimately you will become sick and die.

[baja]

The placebo effect is well documented.




Not when it comes to matters of determining fact. The body and mind are notoriously bad at being objective (see the aforementioned placebo effect). This is why we've developed protocols such as double blind tests.

Well you wait until the double blind tests results are ready, in the mean time I will continue to enjoy the subtle but beautiful effects of Bach's Flower Essentials just like the other millions of happy users around the world.

[baja]

You probably don't believe in urine therapy either.

http://www.universal-tao.com/article/urine_therapy.html

[alkemical]

are you just working up to the colonblow? :)

[BroncoInferno]

No my evidence is from the testimonies of people I know personally and from my own personal experience. I will take personal results every time over your "scientific" double blind test.

Did I take a homeopathy therapy? Yes

Did I have noticeable positive results? Yes

That is proof enough for me.

Do you believe what your body tells you?

Ever heard of the placebo effect, baja? Or self-fulling prophecy? I don't doubt you believe what you say, but that doesn't mean you are right. People convince themselves they are sick when they aren't, then the homeopathy "cures" them. That's the problem with personal testimonies, and why skeptics want solid, independent, unbiased, observable evidence. That isn't being "closed-minded," it's being rational. There is a thin-line between being open-minded and being gullible.

[baja]

Ever heard of the placebo effect, baja? Or self-fulling prophecy? I don't doubt you believe what you say, but that doesn't mean you are right. People convince themselves they are sick when they aren't, then the homeopathy "cures" them. That's the problem with personal testimonies, and why skeptics want solid, independent, unbiased, observable evidence. That isn't being "closed-minded," it's being rational. There is a thin-line between being open-minded and being gullible.


I don't think it's a question of right & wrong. I am telling you it works for me what you do with that information is up to you.

[gyldenlove]

One of the homeopathic principles is that like heals like.

This principle is not limited to medicine. You can find it in psychology -- and even in literature.

Here's an example: In Dostoevsky's great novel CRIME AND PUNISHMENT, the hero Raskolnikov experiences a deep personal healing.

Raskolnikov in Russian means "split" which tells us that the hero is deeply wounded on an emotional/psychological level. In fact, the hero has been split off from his feminine side.

How does the healing happen? Raskolnikov kills a witch by cleaving her head with an axe. The witch stands for the violent abusive parent responsible for damaging the young male child.

The violent act of splitting the witch's skull is restorative. The story ends with Raskolnikov reunited with his lost love -- a young woman who represents his feminine side.

You clowns will scoff -- but it's just your own ignorance speaking.

There are many more examples of this type of psychological healing discussed in the many books by Maries Louis von Franz, who was Carl Jung's protege at the Jung Institute in Zurich.

Von Franz teamed up with Jung's wife Emma -- in writing the classic psychological study of the Grail -- aptly titled the Grail Legend.

What the hell trippy copy of Crime and Punishment did you read?

The old lady is not a witch, she is a fence/pawnbroker. The violent act of cleaving her head haunts Raskolnikov until he breaks down completely and he ends his days in a Gulag in Siberia.

[gyldenlove]

The principles of homeopathy are universal principles. They apply across the board. That's what I'm telling you.

They apply in psychology as well as in medicine. Literature is about life- -hence it embraces human psychology.

I already gave you an example from medicine. Why does the body need minerals in trace amounts?

Trace means very very very tiny amounts. This should tell you that small is not necessarily insignificant. Indeed, as EF Schumacher said: SMALL IS BEAUTIFUL!

Think small.

Without trace elements your body will not function well -- and ultimately you will become sick and die.


During flu season I inhale trace amount of flu virus and damn it all if I don't sick, not healthy from it.

[DenverBrit]

What the hell trippy copy of Crime and Punishment did you read?

The old lady is not a witch, she is a fence/pawnbroker. The violent act of cleaving her head haunts Raskolnikov until he breaks down completely and he ends his days in a Gulag in Siberia.

Typical Gaff research. Claims he knows what he's talking about, but gets it all wrong anyway.

Oh, and he forgot the old pawnbroker's sister.......I meant, the other witch! ;D

And the cherry on top? He just had to add: You clowns will scoff -- but it's just your own ignorance speaking.

[mhgaffney]

What the hell trippy copy of Crime and Punishment did you read?

The old lady is not a witch, she is a fence/pawnbroker. The violent act of cleaving her head haunts Raskolnikov until he breaks down completely and he ends his days in a Gulag in Siberia.

You can read it on that level.

But the deeper level is the one I'm talking about. Yes, he ends up in the Gulag -- but the paradox is that he's happy.

The fact is the killing of the old hag was restorative. It is the same healing pattern one finds in fairy tales.

I encourage you to study Jung.

The depth of meaning -- with different levels -- is why Dostoevsky is one of the greatest writers in any language.

[mhgaffney]

During flu season I inhale trace amount of flu virus and damn it all if I don't sick, not healthy from it.

Very funny.

But without those trace minerals you'd be a lot sicker than sick. You'd have been dead a long time ago.

Every enzyme in the body requires a mineral to make it work. Think hemoglobin with that iron atom at the center of it.

If you don't get the minerals -- your body chemistry won't work right. The problem is, the trace minerals are not in the food -- because the topsoils have been depleted of minerals. So you have to take supplements.

The residents of the Himalayas who drink the milky water from glaciers -- full of minerals -- often live to ripe old age -- over 100 in many cases -- healthy to the end.

Westerners who eat fast food and vegetate before the tube pay the price -- with early onset of degenerative disease.

[baja]

To those of you that judge the value of medical protocols solely on scientific models such as double blind testing please watch this informative video and see the level of confusion and harm that is the reality of modern medicine. My point in this thread is that you are the best judge of the value of a substance, Really listen to your own body it is unique in all the world and it will tell you what it wants if you learn to listen. You are doing yourself a disservice by assuming science is the be all end all of what works and what doesn't.

Enjoy!

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/bOd2gIhqFGA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Fedaykin]

Very funny.

But without those trace minerals you'd be a lot sicker than sick. You'd have been dead a long time ago.

Every enzyme in the body requires a mineral to make it work. Think hemoglobin with that iron atom at the center of it.


Those trace minerals are indeed necessary. Of course, they don't work on the "principals" of homeopathic quackery. They have known purposes in the biochemistry of our bodies. You mention Iron. Iron is used in your blood to bind with oxygen so that your red blood cells can carry it. This is a well understood process and is nothing like what the homeopath quacks propose.

[Fedaykin]

To those of you that judge the value of medical protocols solely on scientific models such as double blind testing please watch this informative video and see the level of confusion and harm that is the reality of modern medicine. My point in this thread is that you are the best judge of the value of a substance, Really listen to your own body it is unique in all the world and it will tell you what it wants if you learn to listen. You are doing yourself a disservice by assuming science is the be all end all of what works and what doesn't.

If a medicine actually works, a proper double blind test will demonstrate that very clearly. If I "listened to my body to tell me what it wants" I'd be obese, have diabetes and be a heart attack or stroke just waiting to happen. Why? Because my body tells me that deep fried chicken, cheese smothered fries and ice cream are things it *really* wants.

[alkemical]

If a medicine actually works, a proper double blind test will demonstrate that very clearly. If I "listened to my body to tell me what it wants" I'd be obese, have diabetes and be a heart attack or stroke just waiting to happen. Why? Because my body tells me that deep fried chicken, cheese smothered fries and ice cream are things it *really* wants.

Well, that's where wants and needs get confused.

I get hungry for colors, or for specific things...like pineapple or "Green" or something like that.

I understood what Baja's saying. I also understand your point growing up in america we live to eat, and not 'eat to live'.

We are SOLD that we need fried chicken...not a salad and raw veggies.

the more in tune you are with your body, the more it will tell you what it does need though.

[Rohirrim]

Time to post an interesting link:

http://www.amazon.com/Pleasure-Trap-Mastering-Undermines-Happiness/dp/1570671508

[mhgaffney]

If a medicine actually works, a proper double blind test will demonstrate that very clearly. If I "listened to my body to tell me what it wants" I'd be obese, have diabetes and be a heart attack or stroke just waiting to happen. Why? Because my body tells me that deep fried chicken, cheese smothered fries and ice cream are things it *really* wants.

No Fedaykin,

This is not what listening t the body means. You are talking about your appetites -- or desires. This is different.

[baja]

If a medicine actually works, a proper double blind test will demonstrate that very clearly. If I "listened to my body to tell me what it wants" I'd be obese, have diabetes and be a heart attack or stroke just waiting to happen. Why? Because my body tells me that deep fried chicken, cheese smothered fries and ice cream are things it *really* wants.

I really don't know if you are being disingenuous or obtuse.