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oubronco
02-07-2011, 10:56 AM
Broncos unlikely to bring Orton back.
Posted Feb. 07, 2011 @ 11:47 a.m. ET
By PFW staff

• Broncos executive vice president of football operations John Elway recently said it's not a sure thing that QB Kyle Orton will be traded, but a PFW insider said it would be very tough to bring the veteran back. While QB Tim Tebow may not give the team the best chance to win, he does have the backing of the fans in Denver. Elway has talked about reconnecting with the fans and could lose some credibility by sticking with Orton. A daily team observer said he gets the feeling that fans would rather win three or four games with Tebow than six or seven with Orton.

http://www.profootballweekly.com/201...ing-orton-back

SonOfLe-loLang
02-07-2011, 10:59 AM
"Daily team observer" Me or anyone on this board can qualify as that

Mr.Meanie
02-07-2011, 11:02 AM
A daily team observer said he gets the feeling that fans would rather win three or four games with Tebow than six or seven with Orton.

I think there is no question about that at this point.

Beantown Bronco
02-07-2011, 11:03 AM
A daily team observer said he gets the feeling that fans would rather win three or four games with Tebow than six or seven with Orton.

We need a poll to confirm the accuracy of this.

Where's Hotrod?

Miss I.
02-07-2011, 11:05 AM
We need a poll to confirm the accuracy of this.

Where's Hotrod?

really, where is Hotrod? I miss that guy..;)

bronco militia
02-07-2011, 11:05 AM
A daily team observer said he gets the feeling that fans would rather win three or four games with Tebow than six or seven with Orton.

only for so long...Elway was booed by Denver fans quite often

Paladin
02-07-2011, 11:12 AM
Horsepucky....

HAT
02-07-2011, 11:15 AM
There's not a fan on this board that would rather have 3 wins vs. 7....No matter the circumstance.

BroncosMT
02-07-2011, 11:15 AM
Doesn't surprise me.....I think we go in with Tebow and Quinn IMO and the FO knows that.....especially if the rift is true......I think Orton knows his days are numbered.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-07-2011, 11:21 AM
Media just covering all their bases. Orton's the starter. No, Orton won't even be here next year. No, Orton is here, and the Broncos aren't looking for a trade. The trade offers will start out with a second round pick.

Someday, we'll all learn to look past this as pure media posturing and nothing more.

Requiem
02-07-2011, 11:21 AM
A team insider also rumored that Cool Starry Bra gave a lap dance to Requiem for six dollars last evening at a local Super Bowl party.

tsiguy96
02-07-2011, 11:23 AM
There's not a fan on this board that would rather have 3 wins vs. 7....No matter the circumstance.

completely not true. there is multiple people here who would criticize orton for winning 7 and priase tebow for winning 3, regardless of the circumstances

Dedhed
02-07-2011, 11:24 AM
There's not a fan on this board that would rather have 3 wins vs. 7....No matter the circumstance.

I disagree with that. Winning 6-7 games with Orton is a step backwards.

Winning games with Tebow, regardless of whether it's fewer than it might be with Orton, is moving forward as an organization.

Hercules Rockefeller
02-07-2011, 11:24 AM
Local press are now called daily team observers?

tsiguy96
02-07-2011, 11:27 AM
I disagree with that. Winning 6-7 games with Orton is a step backwards.

Winning games with Tebow, regardless of whether it's fewer than it might be with Orton, is moving forward as an organization.

unless you take into account the very real possibility that tebow is not capable of doing in NFL what he did in college, and may never be a legit starting QB. everyone wants him to be, but its not a for sure thing

Missouribronc
02-07-2011, 11:27 AM
Somebody at PFT had a deadline and didn't have anything else to run with...

jhns
02-07-2011, 11:34 AM
unless you take into account the very real possibility that tebow is not capable of doing in NFL what he did in college, and may never be a legit starting QB. everyone wants him to be, but its not a for sure thing

What does it matter? We are still better with Tebow than we are with Orton. This was proven when Tebow outplayed Orton in live games last season. This, while Tebow was a rookie still learning the basics.

There is zero reason to stick with Orton. He does not give this team a better chance to win. This is why he will not be here next season, or at least won't be the starter.

Dedhed
02-07-2011, 11:35 AM
unless you take into account the very real possibility that tebow is not capable of doing in NFL what he did in college, and may never be a legit starting QB. everyone wants him to be, but its not a for sure thing

Even if he craps out it's still moving forward because you would be gaining that knowledge and can begin to look for the QBOTF, with a likely high draft choice.

Hogan11
02-07-2011, 11:36 AM
There's not a fan on this board that would rather have 3 wins vs. 7....No matter the circumstance.

You'd think so, but as you can see, it's untrue.

HAT
02-07-2011, 11:38 AM
I disagree with that. Winning 6-7 games with Orton is a step backwards.

Winning games with Tebow, regardless of whether it's fewer than it might be with Orton, is moving forward as an organization.

You're assuming that a 3 win Tebow season would eventually lead to something better. What if the question was.....

Tebow starts for 10 years and Denver wins 3 games every one of those seasons or ANY other QB starts and Denver wins 7 games every year.

I agree that Orton should be traded and that the Broncos need to go all in on Tebow....But winning 3 games is not a step forward from anything. There may be 'people' who'd prefer 3 wins over 7 but I wouldn't categorize them as Bronco fans.

Dedhed
02-07-2011, 11:39 AM
You'd think so, but as you can see, it's untrue.

I guess some people think that tearing down a house is always a bad thing. Even if it's a festering rat hole built on a shoddy foundation.

Hogan11
02-07-2011, 11:40 AM
I guess some people think that tearing down a house is always a bad thing. Even if it's a festering rat hole built on a shoddy foundation.

Ah, the ole "you have to destroy in order to create" thing right?

Dedhed
02-07-2011, 11:42 AM
You're assuming that a 3 win Tebow season would eventually lead to something better. What if the question was.....

Tebow starts for 10 years and Denver wins 3 games every one of those seasons or ANY other QB starts and Denver wins 7 games every year.

I agree that Orton should be traded and that the Broncos need to go all in on Tebow....But winning 3 games is not a step forward from anything. There may be 'people' who'd prefer 3 wins over 7 but I wouldn't categorize them as Bronco fans.

I'm not assuming anything. I don't believe Orton is not a guy to lead this team forward.

Teobe may not be either, but moving away from Orton and finding out what Tebow really is as a QB are both positives to me. Even if Tebow proves to be awful.

There is nothing positive to be taken from winning 6 or 7 games with Orton.

Beantown Bronco
02-07-2011, 11:43 AM
Even if he craps out it's still moving forward because you would be gaining that knowledge and can begin to look for the QBOTF, with a likely high draft choice.

There is nothing positive to be taken from winning 6 or 7 games with Orton.

I'd argue that you'd gain even more knowledge from a 7 win Orton season.

We'd have one more year to learn Orton's true ceiling.

Tebow obviously wasn't good enough at any point to win the job from a 7 win QB, so he's probably not the answer either.

Ugly Duck
02-07-2011, 11:44 AM
There's not a fan on this board that would rather have 3 wins vs. 7....No matter the circumstance.

3 win seasons are highly overrated. Been there, done that...

Dedhed
02-07-2011, 11:46 AM
Ah, the ole "you have to destroy in order to create" thing right?

It's more the ol' "If you know you have a terrible foundation don't try to build on it".

What is the MO you're working on?

TailgateNut
02-07-2011, 11:47 AM
I think there is no question about that at this point.

Speak for yourself and the other TimBowNites!

HAT
02-07-2011, 11:48 AM
I'm not assuming anything. I don't believe Orton is not a guy to lead this team forward.

Teobe may not be either, but moving away from Orton and finding out what Tebow really is as a QB are both positives to me. Even if Tebow proves to be awful.

There is nothing positive to be taken from winning 6 or 7 games with Orton.

Again, I've been advocating a 2011 Orton trade since last summer......BUT:

I'm not talking about any specific QB or any knowledge to be gained for future seasons......If the Broncos were only going to exist for one more year, there's not a fan on this planet that would prefer 3 wins over 7.

TailgateNut
02-07-2011, 11:50 AM
3 win seasons are highly overrated. Been there, done that...

But with TimBow leading the trainwreck, 100% of the TimBowNites would be creaming in their panties.

Dedhed
02-07-2011, 11:51 AM
There may be 'people' who'd prefer 3 wins over 7 but I wouldn't categorize them as Bronco fans.

This is not at all the point, and not at all what's being argued here. Of course any fan would prefer more wins, but not meaningless wins regardless of circumstance.

It's like saying everyone would rather have more money. Probably a true statement when looked at in a vacuum.

Add a few caveats and the landscape changes quickly. Especially if the caveats are all negative. You have to work double the hours, etc.

There's not a single positive I see from winning 6 games with Orton.

cmhargrove
02-07-2011, 11:52 AM
Has anyone confirmed this with Josina?

Dedhed
02-07-2011, 11:52 AM
Again, I've been advocating a 2011 Orton trade since last summer......BUT:

I'm not talking about any specific QB or any knowledge to be gained for future seasons......If the Broncos were only going to exist for one more year, there's not a fan on this planet that would prefer 3 wins over 7.

Why would you be talking about that as opposed to REALITY?

TheReverend
02-07-2011, 11:52 AM
Let Tebow eat his soul first.

RhymesayersDU
02-07-2011, 11:52 AM
The problem is, it's not just 3 wins versus 7 wins. That's way too simplistic a view on the situation. People want to see what Tebow has, and I don't think that's such a bad thing. Now granted, I think Orton sucks, and as such I want to see the new guy. If you like Orton, you're obviously going to disagree.

Somebody said it earlier; seeing 6-7 wins under Orton is pointless. Does that mean Tebow will be great? No. Perhaps we are having this same convo in 2 years about him. But at this point I'm ready to give Tebow the keys because we know what we have with the frustratingly mediocre Kyle Orton.

oubronco
02-07-2011, 11:55 AM
But with TimBow leading the trainwreck, 100% of the TimBowNites would be creaming in their panties.

Hilarious! so true

55CrushEm
02-07-2011, 11:57 AM
There's not a fan on this board that would rather have 3 wins vs. 7....No matter the circumstance.

I would.....for a few reasons.

1. Neither 3 wins, nor 7 wins gets you in the playoffs, but 3 wins is better draft position.
2. Tebow is still developing, while Orton just had the best season he'll ever have.
3. Tebow is more fun to watch.

Beantown Bronco
02-07-2011, 11:58 AM
Somebody said it earlier; seeing 6-7 wins under Orton is pointless.

No it isn't. There's something to be learned in every situation.

RhymesayersDU
02-07-2011, 12:03 PM
No it isn't. There's something to be learned in every situation.

What is there to learn with another season of Kyle Orton? We know exactly what we have with him. He's not going to get better. And his best has not been nearly good enough.

Dedhed
02-07-2011, 12:04 PM
There's something to be learned in every situation.And what would we learn from another terrible year with Orton that would make it MORE valuable to start him?

schaaf
02-07-2011, 12:04 PM
If we win 3 games next year we'll be selecting Andrew Luck.

HAT
02-07-2011, 12:07 PM
I would.....for a few reasons.

1. Neither 3 wins, nor 7 wins gets you in the playoffs, but 3 wins is better draft position.


It's technically possible to go 14-2 and miss the playoffs. You'd rather go 0-16 for better draft position?

Also...7 wins CAN get you into the playoffs.

RaiderH8r
02-07-2011, 12:07 PM
The problem is, it's not just 3 wins versus 7 wins. That's way too simplistic a view on the situation. People want to see what Tebow has, and I don't think that's such a bad thing. Now granted, I think Orton sucks, and as such I want to see the new guy. If you like Orton, you're obviously going to disagree.

Somebody said it earlier; seeing 6-7 wins under Orton is pointless. Does that mean Tebow will be great? No. Perhaps we are having this same convo in 2 years about him. But at this point I'm ready to give Tebow the keys because we know what we have with the frustratingly mediocre Kyle Orton.

People care about the impact a physical freak like Tebow can have. Orton is who we know him to be: check down, check down, take sack. Period. He's never going to "make a play", just not his style. We need play makers and Tebow can turn **** into shinola. Orton just lumbers around like my grandma with a broken hip before hitting the pucker button, going fetal and taking the sack. Christ, teams can rush 2 at captain checkdown and drop 9 and still not have to worry about his scrambling ability...because he has none. I guarantee, iron clad, lead pipe lock guaran-f'ing-tee this team is better with Tebow under center. Short term and long term. If only because he can move around the field.

EDIT: Having said all of that, Orton should remain this team's starting QB. We shouldn't listen to any offers because this team needs Orton. He's a leader. He can get it done on the field. He gets the guys in the huddle ready to go to war and we can't let a guy like that go at any price...until the price is right and then ship his clod hopping arse.

Dedhed
02-07-2011, 12:10 PM
If we win 3 games next year we'll be selecting Andrew Luck.
Exactly. If we win 3 games with Tebow, we'll have a very clear picture of where we stand, and be in a position to take the best QB in the draft.

We win 6 games with Orton, not only do we not know what we have in Tebow, but we're not in a position to get THE franchise QB anyway.

And we've gained nothing.

Dedhed
02-07-2011, 12:12 PM
It's technically possible to go 14-2 and miss the playoffs. You'd rather go 0-16 for better draft position?

Also...7 wins CAN get you into the playoffs.

Now you're just spinning yarn.

Kaylore
02-07-2011, 12:14 PM
"Daily team observer" Me or anyone on this board can qualify as that

Yeah no kidding. Not to mention the "observer" says he thinks fans would prefer to lose an extra game to watch Tebow. How does that = Orton traded automatically?

Really it should read like this:

"Fan would rather watch Tebow."

schaaf
02-07-2011, 12:15 PM
It's technically possible to go 14-2 and miss the playoffs. You'd rather go 0-16 for better draft position?

Also...7 wins CAN get you into the playoffs.

It's technically possible for your **** to not stink.....

But yet your **** stinks

HAT
02-07-2011, 12:15 PM
Now you're just spinning yarn.

Call it what you want but I stand by my original contention that no Broncos fan would prefer 3 wins over 7

TheReverend
02-07-2011, 12:17 PM
As adorable as this discussion is... it's moot.

By the end of last season, Tebow gave us the best chance to win.

With another year in the system. With a year of experience of the NFL's pace. With multiple starts against his belt against TOP NFL defenses and playing in hostile environments. With another set of mini camps and training camp. With Tebow's work ethic.

**** won't even be close, and it's laughable to consider the alternative could even POSSIBLY provide 2x + as many wins.

MplsBronco
02-07-2011, 12:17 PM
Did I miss something and we won 6 or 7 games this year with Orton?

fdf
02-07-2011, 12:17 PM
What does it matter? We are still better with Tebow than we are with Orton. This was proven when Tebow outplayed Orton in live games last season. This, while Tebow was a rookie still learning the basics.

Not sure I agree. IMO, the reason Tebow played better than Orton last year was that he gave us a credible rushing attack. Orton played the same position with no credible rushing attack. Fix the OL and rush game and I don't think Tebow necessarily does as well as Orton.

Orton is quite a good pocket quarterback, esp when play-action actually works. And, he knows the game.

I'm rooting for Tebow. But Orton may be the better QB next year. Maybe for years to come.

baja
02-07-2011, 12:19 PM
There's not a fan on this board that would rather have 3 wins vs. 7....No matter the circumstance.

I am ready to see the Tebow era start if that means the difference between 500% and two more loses I'll take the losses and Tebow.

Dedhed
02-07-2011, 12:21 PM
Call it what you want but I stand by my original contention that no Broncos fan would prefer 3 wins over 7

That wasn't your original contention, though.

You're actual original contention was that no Broncos fan would prefer 3 wins over 7 REGARDLESS OF CIRCUMSTANCES.

There is a drastic difference between what you began arguing and what you're now trying to change the argument into.

Beantown Bronco
02-07-2011, 12:22 PM
What is there to learn with another season of Kyle Orton? We know exactly what we have with him. He's not going to get better. And his best has not been nearly good enough.

I heard this same argument 12 months ago and then he went out and improved significantly. Third year in the same system, which is usually the year it all comes together for QBs, with a more cohesive and improved OLine supporting him, could result in a similar improvement.

Just because people love to say that Kyle isn't going to get better, it doesn't make it true. There's zero evidence to support this argument actually.

RaiderH8r
02-07-2011, 12:22 PM
Not sure I agree. IMO, the reason Tebow played better than Orton last year was that he gave us a credible rushing attack. Orton played the same position with no credible rushing attack. Fix the OL and rush game and I don't think Tebow necessarily does as well as Orton.

Orton is quite a good pocket quarterback, esp when play-action actually works. And, he knows the game.

I'm rooting for Tebow. But Orton may be the better QB next year. Maybe for years to come.

Tebow is the improved rushing attack. Orton just runs like old people screw and its about as much fun to watch. Until Orton gives himself over to God and Football Jesus he'll just be another heathen with no scrambling ability.

Mogulseeker
02-07-2011, 12:23 PM
The problem is, it's not just 3 wins versus 7 wins. That's way too simplistic a view on the situation. People want to see what Tebow has, and I don't think that's such a bad thing. Now granted, I think Orton sucks, and as such I want to see the new guy. If you like Orton, you're obviously going to disagree.

Somebody said it earlier; seeing 6-7 wins under Orton is pointless. Does that mean Tebow will be great? No. Perhaps we are having this same convo in 2 years about him. But at this point I'm ready to give Tebow the keys because we know what we have with the frustratingly mediocre Kyle Orton.

Well I'm actually a believer now. I think Orton is underrated, but I also think you have to look beyond the stats. Tebow has the it factor. Actually, you can look at the stats too... statistically Orton and Tebow were fairly similar last year, with Orton having a slight passing edge... with Tebow you also get the intensity, fan involvement, player involvement.... and his rushing edge is quite better.

I got to seem him play in San Diego where he put up 94 yards, and I think Tebow will change the dynamics of the Broncos offense, and I'm cool with that.

I don't want to go back to my draft posts, but I don;t know if anyone remembers how against the Tebow pick I was... and I hoped I was wrong. Now... optimistically speaking, I think I might have been wrong on that one, and I'm really excited on seeing what Tebow has.

Beantown Bronco
02-07-2011, 12:24 PM
And what would we learn from another terrible year with Orton that would make it MORE valuable to start him?

Apply some logic.

Assuming the team sticks to its word and plays the best guy at every position, we learn one very key thing: that Tebow, after an open and fair competition, wasn't as good as Orton. Period.

TheReverend
02-07-2011, 12:25 PM
I heard this same argument 12 months ago and then he went out and improved significantly. Third year in the same system, which is usually the year it all comes together for QBs, with a more cohesive and improved OLine supporting him, could result in a similar improvement.

Just because people love to say that Kyle isn't going to get better, it doesn't make it true. There's zero evidence to support this argument actually.

Season Team Passing Rushing Fumbles
G GS Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rate Att Yds Avg TD FUM Lost
2010 Denver Broncos 13 13 293 498 58.8 3,653 7.3 20 9 34 243 87.5 22 98 4.5 0 4 4
2009 Denver Broncos 16 15 336 541 62.1 3,802 7.0 21 12 29 159 86.8 24 71 3.0 0 4 2


http://www.nfl.com/players/kyleorton/profile?id=ORT716150

Please point out the significant improvement?

Naturally, we don't even need to bother discussing his sheer volume of ineptitude on 3rd down, do we?

Dedhed
02-07-2011, 12:26 PM
Just because people love to say that Kyle isn't going to get better, it doesn't make it true. There's zero evidence to support this argument actually.

There's also zero evidence to support the argument that Orton gives the Broncos a better chance to win games now.

The only argument is that Orton has experience, the quantitative evidence shows that the Broncos offense was better under Tebow.

Beantown Bronco
02-07-2011, 12:28 PM
Please point out the significant improvement?


It's pretty simple math if you apply the proper per start ratios.

Dedhed
02-07-2011, 12:28 PM
Apply some logic.

Assuming the team sticks to its word and plays the best guy at every position, we learn one very key thing: that Tebow, after an open and fair competition, wasn't as good as Orton. Period.

Here's a little logic. 25>20.

Beantown Bronco
02-07-2011, 12:29 PM
There's also zero evidence to support the argument that Orton gives the Broncos a better chance to win games now.


Ummmm, John Elway disagrees.

The only argument is that Orton has experience, the quantitative evidence shows that the Broncos offense was better under Tebow.

Debatable. An argument can be made that the amounts of turnovers forced by the Denver defense and resulting starting field position disparities had more to do with our scoring than anything Tebow did individually.

Dedhed
02-07-2011, 12:30 PM
It's pretty simple math if you apply the proper per start ratios.

There's no simpler math than 25>20. I'm sure if you apply the proper ratios and multipliers 2+2 no longer equals 4.

Beantown Bronco
02-07-2011, 12:30 PM
Here's a little logic. 25>20.

Meaningless without context.

baja
02-07-2011, 12:32 PM
I'd argue that you'd gain even more knowledge from a 7 win Orton season.

We'd have one more year to learn Orton's true ceiling.

Tebow obviously wasn't good enough at any point to win the job from a 7 win QB, so he's probably not the answer either.

I think you have to chose between Orton and Tebow and you have to do that this season coming. If you deem Orton the answer trade tebow for picks for defense. If Tim is you guy trade Kyle for a pick. Reason is we need to move this along and get with the rebuild. If Tim is chosen and fails we will have a high pick to get Luck or some other highly rated passer. If we keep both it will be another year of indecision and uncertainty and we all know the natives are restless. We no longer have the luxury of waiting to see which one will be the better starter. Orton is not our guy going forward (IMO) so I say let him move on for a nice pick and get on with the business of getting back to Bronco football (winning).

RhymesayersDU
02-07-2011, 12:32 PM
I heard this same argument 12 months ago and then he went out and improved significantly. Third year in the same system, which is usually the year it all comes together for QBs, with a more cohesive and improved OLine supporting him, could result in a similar improvement.

Just because people love to say that Kyle isn't going to get better, it doesn't make it true. There's zero evidence to support this argument actually.

There's no evidence to support the idea that he's going to get better. The guy has been an NFL QB for 6 years and has never been great. Regardless of system.

Beantown Bronco
02-07-2011, 12:32 PM
There's no simpler math than 25>20.

Wrong again.

1>0 is far simpler.

Dedhed
02-07-2011, 12:32 PM
Debatable. An argument can be made that the amounts of turnovers forced by the Denver defense and resulting starting field position disparities had more to do with our scoring than anything Tebow did individually.

And an argument could be made that the defense played far better because of the energy that Tebow brought to the team.

Let's just make circular arguments all day.

gyldenlove
02-07-2011, 12:32 PM
I heard this same argument 12 months ago and then he went out and improved significantly. Third year in the same system, which is usually the year it all comes together for QBs, with a more cohesive and improved OLine supporting him, could result in a similar improvement.

Just because people love to say that Kyle isn't going to get better, it doesn't make it true. There's zero evidence to support this argument actually.

How many times this year did Orton pick up the team and carry it? I didn't once see a game where I could truly say Orton put the team on his back and willed it to victory, but I saw many games where Orton was just another player who failed with the rest.

In 7 games with Orton playing we were down by 1 score or less in the 4th quarter, we went 1-6 in those games. That is not good enough, that is not getting it done. The games we had no chance to win is one thing, that is on the defense not stopping people, but in 7 games we had the chance to win it in the 4th quarter when your good players have to step up, and Orton sank like a rock in those games (except the Tennessee game and to some extend the St Louis game where he came up short anyway).

If Orton has any value right now, we need to cash in.

Dedhed
02-07-2011, 12:33 PM
Wrong again.

1>0 is far simpler.
Actually there's no difference in the math between those 2 statements.

Beantown Bronco
02-07-2011, 12:34 PM
There's no evidence to support the idea that he's going to get better.

He's shown measurable improvement for 4 years in a row.

TheReverend
02-07-2011, 12:35 PM
It's pretty simple math if you apply the proper per start ratios.

Okay, let's dig deeper:

2009: 4055 yards expanded into 16 starts
2010: 4496 yards expanded into 16 starts


2009: 22.5 TDs expanded into 16 starts
2010: 24.5 TDs expanded into 16 starts


2009: <15 total turnovers expanded into 16 starts
2010: 16 total turnovers expanded into 16 starts


2009: <31 sacks expanded into 16 starts
2010: <42 sacks expanded into 16 starts


This is far from what I'd consider "significant" improvement. And that's just using superficial stats and not even taking into account how much of a god awful abysmal failure of biblical ****ing proportions he is on 3rd down.

Beantown Bronco
02-07-2011, 12:36 PM
Actually there's no difference in the math between those 2 statements.

Ask a four year old if they know if 1 is greater than 0. Then ask them if they know if 25 is greater than 20.

The simpler problem will be easy to identify.

RhymesayersDU
02-07-2011, 12:39 PM
He's shown measurable improvement for 4 years in a row.

Explain.

jhns
02-07-2011, 12:39 PM
Ummmm, John Elway disagrees.



Debatable. An argument can be made that the amounts of turnovers forced by the Denver defense and resulting starting field position disparities had more to do with our scoring than anything Tebow did individually.

What exactly was the starting field position for each QB?

Beantown Bronco
02-07-2011, 12:40 PM
Okay, let's dig deeper:

2009: 4055 yards expanded into 16 starts
2010: 4496 yards expanded into 16 starts


2009: 22.5 TDs expanded into 16 starts
2010: 24.5 TDs expanded into 16 starts


2009: <15 total turnovers expanded into 16 starts
2010: 16 total turnovers expanded into 16 starts


2009: <31 sacks expanded into 16 starts
2010: <42 sacks expanded into 16 starts


This is far from what I'd consider "significant" improvement. And that's just using superficial stats

You're admittedly ignoring context and just looking at the "superficial stats." He did more with less in 2010. An undeniably worse OLine performance and worse running game. You have to account for that.

broncocalijohn
02-07-2011, 12:41 PM
"Daily team observer" Me or anyone on this board can qualify as that

even Bleacher Report qualifies for that. Who in the **** says "3 or 4" games and Orton gives us "6 or 7"? We won 4 games last year so he "observes" first we win 6 or 7 and that it can only be done with Orton? I dont want to hate on Orton on this one but the comments are assinine.

Beantown Bronco
02-07-2011, 12:42 PM
Explain.

There's nothing to explain. Every measurable criteria shows he's gotten better every year for the last four year. I don't know what's so difficult to understand there. Is anyone arguing that he's gotten WORSE? Or that 2009 and 2010 weren't the best years of his career?

RhymesayersDU
02-07-2011, 12:45 PM
There's nothing to explain. Every measurable criteria shows he's gotten better every year for the last four year. I don't know what's so difficult to understand there. Is anyone arguing that he's gotten WORSE? Or that 2009 and 2010 weren't the best years of his career?

So... You can't explain how Orton has gotten better, then?

Beantown Bronco
02-07-2011, 12:46 PM
So... You can't explain how Orton has gotten better, then?

Are you completely ignoring Rev's post and my responses? Do I really need to get into how his performance here is better than what he did in Chicago? Wow.

Dedhed
02-07-2011, 12:47 PM
Ask a four year old if they know if 1 is greater than 0. Then ask them if they know if 25 is greater than 20.

The simpler problem will be easy to identify.You would have a point if the argument was which statement is simpler to understand for a 4 year old.

Since the argument is not about that, you don't. The MATH is exactly the same.

BTW, most 4 year olds would know Tebow is better than Orton.

TheReverend
02-07-2011, 12:47 PM
You're admittedly ignoring context and just looking at the "superficial stats." He did more with less in 2010. An undeniably worse OLine performance and worse running game. You have to account for that.

Was it?

Harris missed more games in 2009 than 2010, and Beadles was a massive upgrade filling in over Tyler Polumbus. So, 2010>2009 until we look at the interior... would you say Hamilton/Weigman were superior to Beadles/Walton, because all they did was get beat up on this forum all last year and released in the offseason.

And why do you credit him for doing "more with less" and then attack the running game when it was the running games deficiencies that PROVIDED him the opportunity to do "more"? After all, you said, "a significant improvement"... but the only actual category he showed ANY marked improvement in was passing yards.

And, ftr, he actually regressed on 3rd downs from 09-10. "Significantly".

Beantown Bronco
02-07-2011, 12:48 PM
You would have a point if the argument was which statement is simpler to understand for a 4 year old.

Since the argument is not about that, you don't. The MATH is exactly the same.

The math is NOT the same. It's scary that you think it is actually.

broncocalijohn
02-07-2011, 12:49 PM
Apply some logic.

Assuming the team sticks to its word and plays the best guy at every position, we learn one very key thing: that Tebow, after an open and fair competition, wasn't as good as Orton. Period.

Two things here, one is McD was too scared to put him even in garbage time when we were crushing the CHiefs or getting our asses kicked by the Raiders. Those were simple opps to put him in or even Quinn and McD chose not to do it. That isnt based on being ready but sticking his starter out there to be injured. 2nd, Tebow has a full offseason to improve. He proved something to us in those last 3 games and there is no way he digresses after this offseason. Tebow, as of right now, is our future. Quinn and Orton will be sideshows. Do I want Tebow gone before TC? Not unless we get something valuable with him (trade for Vet or 2nd rounder). I want him in camp and see if he can battle Tebow. There was some excitement with Orton but I see Tebow as the "It" factor. I might be wrong but that is Fox's decision to see who wins the starting job. I will like the competition.

jhns
02-07-2011, 12:52 PM
You're admittedly ignoring context and just looking at the "superficial stats." He did more with less in 2010. An undeniably worse OLine performance and worse running game. You have to account for that.

I like how this is being used by you for his lack of improvement here but you aren't using it when arguing why he got better from Chicago to here. Are you claiming he didn't have better players around him on offense here than in Chicago? Weird.

I am still interested in that starting field position stat that you claimed.

Punisher
02-07-2011, 12:52 PM
OH NO! NOT THAT <------- Using Caps

Punisher
02-07-2011, 12:53 PM
oh no.... not that <----- not using caps

Beantown Bronco
02-07-2011, 12:54 PM
Was it?

Harris missed more games in 2009 than 2010, and Beadles was a massive upgrade filling in over Tyler Polumbus. So, 2010>2009 until we look at the interior....

Wait, what? 2010 Clady < 2009 Clady.....by a mile.

would you say Hamilton/Weigman were superior to Beadles/Walton, because all they did was get beat up on this forum all last year and released in the offseason.

I might actually. Walton was universally ranked as the worst starting center in the league. Weigman had a bad year in 2009, but he never held down that title. And Clady at least had a trust thing going on with Hamilton. He clearly didn't have that with Beadles this year, at least early on, and always seemed to get in trouble because of it.

And why do you credit him for doing "more with less" and then attack the running game when it was the running games deficiencies that PROVIDED him the opportunity to do "more"? After all, you said, "a significant improvement"... but the only actual category he showed ANY marked improvement in was passing yards.

Yup, it can be looked at as a chicken and the egg thing in terms of the yardage racked up. But if you ignore the actual number of attempts and look at the yards per carry, it's pretty clear that there was a HUGE difference in the support the running game gave him in 2009 vs 2010.

Dedhed
02-07-2011, 12:59 PM
The math is NOT the same. It's scary that you think it is actually.

It's scary that you don't understand that the math is exactly the same.

The quantities involved does not change the MATH at all.

gyldenlove
02-07-2011, 01:04 PM
You're admittedly ignoring context and just looking at the "superficial stats." He did more with less in 2010. An undeniably worse OLine performance and worse running game. You have to account for that.

He also did it against less, we had a really easy schedule this year compared to last year, and played several games last year with a broken finger. You can make those soft arguments either way.

Beantown Bronco
02-07-2011, 01:09 PM
He also did it against less, we had a really easy schedule this year compared to last year

I'd disagree with that, though there's no way to compare them easily IMO. People love to through around the every popular "strength of schedule" numbers, but, again, those numbers are meaningless without context. WHEN you play someone can have a much bigger impact than WHO you actually play. At Jacksonville in week one should never have the same weight as playing them at home in December for instance. Or playing a certain team missing their best player vs playing them at full strength. Those don't show up in the "official" rankings, but they're very important if you want a true sense of strength of schedule.

_Oro_
02-07-2011, 01:11 PM
The problem with Orton is not 2009 or 2010. The problem with Orton is first half of the season versus second half of the season.

Punisher
02-07-2011, 01:20 PM
http://reason.com/assets/mc/psuderman/2011_01/crystal_ball-guys.jpg

ORTON TO THE 49ERS

strafen
02-07-2011, 01:34 PM
I heard this same argument 12 months ago and then he went out and improved significantly. Third year in the same system, which is usually the year it all comes together for QBs, with a more cohesive and improved OLine supporting him, could result in a similar improvement.

Just because people love to say that Kyle isn't going to get better, it doesn't make it true. There's zero evidence to support this argument actually.Of course there is plenty evidence.
For the guy to get better he needs to be more athletic, which he's not and that ain't going to be acquired. Either you have it or you don't. He's just not athletic, period.
The guy can't improvise, the guy can not make plays when there's none.
All those things are related to Orton's abilities to play QB, and he's not a very good one.
Let me say it again. Orton S.U.C.K.S!

The guy got "better" from the 2009 season to the 2010 by virtue of knowing the system better, but at the end of the day, it was still old Orton ****ting the bed.

Come on. You really mean to say Orton has a chance to beat out Tebow?
If that was the case, and we go into the 2011 season with Orton at the helm, that would definitely be another season with no play-offs appareance, if not another losing season.
Get him out of here, now!

Beantown Bronco
02-07-2011, 01:38 PM
For the guy to get better he needs to be more athletic, which he's not and that ain't going to be acquired. Either you have it or you don't. He's just not athletic, period.
The guy can't improvise, the guy can not make plays when there's none.
All those things are related to Orton's abilities to play QB, and he's not a very good one.
Let me say it again. Orton S.U.C.K.S!

The guy got "better" from the 2009 season to the 2010 by virtue of knowing the system better

You just contradicted yourself. First, he can't get better.....then you admit he can and has gotten better. Awesome.

oubronco
02-07-2011, 01:39 PM
http://reason.com/assets/mc/psuderman/2011_01/crystal_ball-guys.jpg

ORTON TO THE 49ERS

Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious!

strafen
02-07-2011, 02:11 PM
You just contradicted yourself. First, he can't get better.....then you admit he can and has gotten better. Awesome.He's got better number/stats wise, not athletic wise. That's why I quoted the word "better" because he really hit the ceiling last season.
We've already seen all Orton can do, and that's about it.
So, for you to say he can still get better, demands an explanation as to where do you see Orton getting better at?

Rigs11
02-07-2011, 02:12 PM
great,fans are still the deciding force in the organization. What a crock.

Rigs11
02-07-2011, 02:14 PM
Of course there is plenty evidence.
For the guy to get better he needs to be more athletic, which he's not and that ain't going to be acquired. Either you have it or you don't. He's just not athletic, period.
The guy can't improvise, the guy can not make plays when there's none.
All those things are related to Orton's abilities to play QB, and he's not a very good one.
Let me say it again. Orton S.U.C.K.S!

The guy got "better" from the 2009 season to the 2010 by virtue of knowing the system better, but at the end of the day, it was still old Orton ****ting the bed.

Come on. You really mean to say Orton has a chance to beat out Tebow?
If that was the case, and we go into the 2011 season with Orton at the helm, that would definitely be another season with no play-offs appareance, if not another losing season.
Get him out of here, now!

so why not let them compete for the job? what are you guys scared of?

gyldenlove
02-07-2011, 02:15 PM
I'd disagree with that, though there's no way to compare them easily IMO. People love to through around the every popular "strength of schedule" numbers, but, again, those numbers are meaningless without context. WHEN you play someone can have a much bigger impact than WHO you actually play. At Jacksonville in week one should never have the same weight as playing them at home in December for instance. Or playing a certain team missing their best player vs playing them at full strength. Those don't show up in the "official" rankings, but they're very important if you want a true sense of strength of schedule.

Lets just do it week by week then:

2009 vs 2010:

1: @Cincy, @Jacksonville.
He had a broken finger and a cast in 2009, but played the hottest game in recorded history or something to that extend in 2010. I am calling that a tie.

2: Cleveland, Seattle.
Both abysmal teams at home, calling it a tie again.

3: @Oakland, Indy
Indy isn't the team they were but Oakland is a pretty pathetic team, so I am calling this one harder in 2010.

4: Dallas, @Tennessee
This one is a tie to me, Orton still had his cast and Dallas was a playoff caliber team, while Tennessee this year wasn't.

5: Patriots, @Baltimore
I am giving the edge to 2010 here.

6: @San Diego, Jets
Clear edge to 2009 here, San Diego was a top seed in the AFC last year and we were away.

7: @Baltimore, Oakland
Clear edge to 2009 again.

8: Pittsburgh, @San fran
2009 takes this one as well.

9: @Washington, Kansas City
A tie, neither team is particularly good, Kansas probably a bit better, but playing the early game on the east coast off a short week is harder.

10: San Diego, @San Diego
San Diego was a better team in 2009, but we were away in 2010, so I am calling it a tie.

11: NY Giants, St Louis
The Giants are a better team than the Rams, edge to 2009.

12: @KC, @KC
The Chiefs were a better team in 2010, so I am giving edge to 2010.

13: @Indy, @Arizona
Clearly 2009 was tougher.


By my count that makes 5 weeks with a harder game in 2009, than 2010 and 3 weeks where 2010 was more difficult, I think have I been pretty fair. To me that means of the 13 first weeks, 2009 was the harder year.

Kaylore
02-07-2011, 02:17 PM
I am ready to see the Tebow era start if that means the difference between 500% and two more loses I'll take the losses and Tebow.

500%? Do you mean .500?
http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/8643/wtfl.jpg

Beantown Bronco
02-07-2011, 02:20 PM
By my count that makes 5 weeks with a harder game in 2009, than 2010 and 3 weeks where 2010 was more difficult, I think have I been pretty fair. To me that means of the 13 first weeks, 2009 was the harder year.

Again, there are so many more factors at play.

Health of the opponents, streaks, bye weeks etc. Teams just play different at different points of the year. Look at GB this year. A game against them in September or October would be weighed FAR differently than December or January.

Tombstone RJ
02-07-2011, 02:26 PM
Broncos unlikely to bring Orton back.
Posted Feb. 07, 2011 @ 11:47 a.m. ET
By PFW staff

• Broncos executive vice president of football operations John Elway recently said it's not a sure thing that QB Kyle Orton will be traded, but a PFW insider said it would be very tough to bring the veteran back. While QB Tim Tebow may not give the team the best chance to win, he does have the backing of the fans in Denver. Elway has talked about reconnecting with the fans and could lose some credibility by sticking with Orton. A daily team observer said he gets the feeling that fans would rather win three or four games with Tebow than six or seven with Orton. The daily team observer also said that fans could stomach a few more losses up front, for a limited amount of time, IF the team had a much better chance to win consistently in the post season and be a playoff contender year in and year out.

http://www.profootballweekly.com/201...ing-orton-back

fixed

RhymesayersDU
02-07-2011, 02:28 PM
Again, there are so many more factors at play.

Health of the opponents, streaks, bye weeks etc. Teams just play different at different points of the year. Look at GB this year. A game against them in September or October would be weighed FAR differently than December or January.

Luckily, Orton led us to many losses in all types of weather, different months, etc.

TheReverend
02-07-2011, 02:39 PM
Wait, what? 2010 Clady < 2009 Clady.....by a mile.



I might actually. Walton was universally ranked as the worst starting center in the league. Weigman had a bad year in 2009, but he never held down that title. And Clady at least had a trust thing going on with Hamilton. He clearly didn't have that with Beadles this year, at least early on, and always seemed to get in trouble because of it.



Yup, it can be looked at as a chicken and the egg thing in terms of the yardage racked up. But if you ignore the actual number of attempts and look at the yards per carry, it's pretty clear that there was a HUGE difference in the support the running game gave him in 2009 vs 2010.

Okay. So after piecing together your own thoughts on the subject matter, you believe this:

Orton showed "significant improvement" by slightly increasing production in some categories and doing poorer in others because he did marginally better in some statistically categories with what could potentially be perceived as "less" support.

Definitely still not seeing the significant improvement.

oubronco
02-07-2011, 02:43 PM
fixed

Thanks I guess

strafen
02-07-2011, 03:10 PM
so why not let them compete for the job? what are you guys scared of?
Are you serious? Ha!
The only one scared is Orton.
Tebow will play Orton's ass out of town.

I welcome the competition so you guys can finally see what a QB is supposed to look like and play like...

cutthemdown
02-07-2011, 03:17 PM
I think Broncos could win 7 games next yr with either QB.

cutthemdown
02-07-2011, 03:18 PM
I'm sort of thinking getting doom back, couple FA, 2-3 high draft picks, maybe run ball a tad more, a tad better, we could win 6-7 games. Probably not much more though.

zdoor
02-07-2011, 03:24 PM
I heard this same argument 12 months ago and then he went out and improved significantly. Third year in the same system, which is usually the year it all comes together for QBs, with a more cohesive and improved OLine supporting him, could result in a similar improvement.

Just because people love to say that Kyle isn't going to get better, it doesn't make it true. There's zero evidence to support this argument actually.

Except Orion played worse as the season wore on...

Ambiguous
02-07-2011, 03:25 PM
I'm sort of thinking getting doom back, couple FA, 2-3 high draft picks, maybe run ball a tad more, a tad better, we could win 6-7 games. Probably not much more though.

Can't wait! /Pays first season ticket payment by March 1st

Gonna be a lot drinking at games again this year.

Gort
02-07-2011, 03:31 PM
I think there is no question about that at this point.

except the math is wrong. Tebow would win 6 or 7. Orton would win 3 or 4. Orton has no mobility and no playmaking ability. give him time to pass from the pocket and he's adequate. force him to improvise and it'll end in a sack everytime.

Gort
02-07-2011, 03:40 PM
There's no simpler math than 25>20. I'm sure if you apply the proper ratios and multipliers 2+2 no longer equals 4.

umm, don't you know that 2+2=22?

what's wrong with you? were you homeschooled?

;)

all kidding aside, it's preposterous to just accept the axiom that all things being equal, Orton wins 6-7 games and Tebow only wins 3-4 games. flip the names and you have something closer to the truth. we win the 49ers, Rams, Cardinals, and 2nd KC game last year with Tebow as QB in my opinion. all 4 of those games were there for the taking and Orton couldn't get it done.

TheReverend
02-07-2011, 03:40 PM
Except Orion played worse as the season wore on...

Oh man... awesome Freudian slip. Only if Orion had Orton's arm strength, he'd never have been able to draw his bow.

Rigs11
02-07-2011, 03:42 PM
Are you serious? Ha!
The only one scared is Orton.
Tebow will play Orton's ass out of town.

I welcome the competition so you guys can finally see what a QB is supposed to look like and play like...

good then, guess that's settled.If the competition does happen want to place a wager on the winner?

Gort
02-07-2011, 03:43 PM
I'm sort of thinking getting doom back, couple FA, 2-3 high draft picks, maybe run ball a tad more, a tad better, we could win 6-7 games. Probably not much more though.

i agree. i think the 2011 team (barring significant upgrades in personnel this offseason) is essentially the same as the 2010 team and i thought the 2010 team was about a 6 win team. with some lucky bounces, they could have gone 8-8. with some unlucky bounces they went 4-12. i think 2011 (if the season happens) will be about the same. anything from 4 wins to 8 wins. but not worse than that and not better than that. we are rebuilding. people need to accept that.

2KBack
02-07-2011, 03:48 PM
except the math is wrong. Tebow would win 6 or 7. Orton would win 3 or 4. Orton has no mobility and no playmaking ability. give him time to pass from the pocket and he's adequate. force him to improvise and it'll end in a sack everytime.

This is one of the funnier "evaluations" I see floating around. Make Kyle have to move around and he sucks....news flash, That's why teams rush the passer. That's the gameplan to beat the most elite QB's in the league. Because most QB's are at their best when given time to pass from the pocket. It is hilarious to be using that as a QB's biggest weakness. If someone wants to argue that Tebow is a unique athlete, and the team seemed to respond to his gamesmanship and attitude, that's fine. I agree that there was a spark to Tebow's game that has me intrigued. There is little to no reason to tear down Orton at the same time, Orton has been a positive player for this franchise during a very negative time. He's been in a tough situation, has been a warrior, and would be a valuable asset to retain.

You don't have to rip on Orton to want Tebow. Especially with silly things like, he isn't mobile enough.

oubronco
02-07-2011, 03:51 PM
Are you serious? Ha!
The only one scared is Orton.
Tebow will play Orton's ass out of town.

I welcome the competition so you guys can finally see what a QB is supposed to look like and play like...

We seen one last night and Tebow isn't no Rogers

Rigs11
02-07-2011, 03:52 PM
This is one of the funnier "evaluations" I see floating around. Make Kyle have to move around and he sucks....news flash, That's why teams rush the passer. That's the gameplan to beat the most elite QB's in the league. Because most QB's are at their best when given time to pass from the pocket. It is hilarious to be using that as a QB's biggest weakness. If someone wants to argue that Tebow is a unique athlete, and the team seemed to respond to his gamesmanship and attitude, that's fine. I agree that there was a spark to Tebow's game that has me intrigued. There is little to no reason to tear down Orton at the same time, Orton has been a positive player for this franchise during a very negative time. He's been in a tough situation, has been a warrior, and would be a valuable asset to retain.

You don't have to rip on Orton to want Tebow. Especially with silly things like, he isn't mobile enough.

no shet, even elway says tebow needs to work on passing from the pocket.i think alot of guys around here play too much madden.

OABB
02-07-2011, 03:55 PM
tebow out played Orton.





end. of. story.

TheReverend
02-07-2011, 03:57 PM
We seen one last night and Tebow isn't no Rogers

Do you know what a double negative is?

oubronco
02-07-2011, 04:56 PM
Do you know what a double negative is?

Don't really care

Punisher
02-07-2011, 05:02 PM
Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious!

LOL

Gort
02-07-2011, 05:04 PM
This is one of the funnier "evaluations" I see floating around. Make Kyle have to move around and he sucks....news flash, That's why teams rush the passer. That's the gameplan to beat the most elite QB's in the league. Because most QB's are at their best when given time to pass from the pocket. It is hilarious to be using that as a QB's biggest weakness. If someone wants to argue that Tebow is a unique athlete, and the team seemed to respond to his gamesmanship and attitude, that's fine. I agree that there was a spark to Tebow's game that has me intrigued. There is little to no reason to tear down Orton at the same time, Orton has been a positive player for this franchise during a very negative time. He's been in a tough situation, has been a warrior, and would be a valuable asset to retain.

You don't have to rip on Orton to want Tebow. Especially with silly things like, he isn't mobile enough.

lots of QBs can improvise under pressure. look at Rapistberger for example. Orton panics when he gets pressured. he has no ability to get away from rushers and he gets sacked as a result. alot of other NFL QBs can hoof their way out of trouble or at least buy an extra second or two to throw the ball away of find their checkoff receiver.

it's almost as if you've not seen any Broncos games with Orton as QB the past 2 years. is your TV broken?

Gort
02-07-2011, 05:07 PM
no shet, even elway says tebow needs to work on passing from the pocket.i think alot of guys around here play too much madden.

practice your reading comprehension. i said Orton is an adequate QB passing from the pocket with protection. once he gets pressured, he panics.

this isn't about Tebow. it's about Orton not being a good fit for a rebuilding team that doesn't have all the tools he needs to be successful. without a running game and without a solid OL, Orton is not going to win many games in Denver.

like the guy or hate the guy... i don't care, but what i posted above is as fair an assessment as you'll ever see of Orton. he belongs in the league. he can win on a better team. but he's no longer a good fit for the 2011 Broncos.

tsiguy96
02-07-2011, 05:13 PM
someone said it best about orton, hes a guy good enough to be an above average NFL starter, but you may always be looking for a better QB if you can get one.

Hamrob
02-07-2011, 05:25 PM
I think we will win 10 games next year...with either Tebow or Orton. I would prefer it to be Tebow...he's the future and needs the reps.

Punisher
02-07-2011, 05:32 PM
I think we will win 10 games next year...with either Tebow or Orton. I would prefer it to be Tebow...he's the future and needs the reps.

i'll tell you in preseason

schaaf
02-07-2011, 05:36 PM
i'll tell you in preseason

If we lose less than that will you jump off the bandwagon again???

errand
02-07-2011, 05:38 PM
There's not a fan on this board that would rather have 3 wins vs. 7....No matter the circumstance.

You ever visit this board when Jake was our QB?

Punisher
02-07-2011, 05:42 PM
If we lose less than that will you jump off the bandwagon again???

I honestly didn't care how many games we lost i just wouldn't Support a HC that clearly had no ****ing idea in his ****ing little stupid mind what the **** he was doing.

errand
02-07-2011, 05:43 PM
I disagree with that. Winning 6-7 games with Orton is a step backwards.

Winning games with Tebow, regardless of whether it's fewer than it might be with Orton, is moving forward as an organization.

your honor, i'd like to submit this post as exhibit A

errand
02-07-2011, 05:45 PM
I guess some people think that tearing down a house is always a bad thing. Even if it's a festering rat hole built on a shoddy foundation.

Isn't that what McDaniels just got fired for?

Rigs11
02-07-2011, 05:47 PM
practice your reading comprehension. i said Orton is an adequate QB passing from the pocket with protection. once he gets pressured, he panics.

this isn't about Tebow. it's about Orton not being a good fit for a rebuilding team that doesn't have all the tools he needs to be successful. without a running game and without a solid OL, Orton is not going to win many games in Denver.

like the guy or hate the guy... i don't care, but what i posted above is as fair an assessment as you'll ever see of Orton. he belongs in the league. he can win on a better team. but he's no longer a good fit for the 2011 Broncos.
And tebow is going to win without an oline and run game? And of course this applies to tebow, he is the replacement if orton is let go.practice your comprehension period.

epicSocialism4tw
02-07-2011, 05:47 PM
tebow out played Orton.





end. of. story.

That's pretty much it.

Seeing the team rally behind Tebow twice...once for a late-game victory against Houston and once for a late-game loss on the last play of the game to San diego...was enough to convince me that Tebow is the guy here.

He had an impressive start for a rookie.

So much so, that I'm already excited for next season.

Tebow + #2 pick defensive player + as many possible free agent DT/LB/S/OL = an improved team.

errand
02-07-2011, 05:50 PM
Did I miss something and we won 6 or 7 games this year with Orton?

did we win 3 games with Tebow?

Bob's your Information Minister
02-07-2011, 05:54 PM
How does it feel to have wasted two years?

Punisher
02-07-2011, 05:57 PM
How does it feel to have wasted two years?

It feels like being jizzed in the face by 3 black men

errand
02-07-2011, 06:00 PM
Season Team Passing Rushing Fumbles
G GS Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rate Att Yds Avg TD FUM Lost
2010 Denver Broncos 13 13 293 498 58.8 3,653 7.3 20 9 34 243 87.5 22 98 4.5 0 4 4
2009 Denver Broncos 16 15 336 541 62.1 3,802 7.0 21 12 29 159 86.8 24 71 3.0 0 4 2


http://www.nfl.com/players/kyleorton/profile?id=ORT716150

Please point out the significant improvement?

Naturally, we don't even need to bother discussing his sheer volume of ineptitude on 3rd down, do we?

Orton's numbers for 2010 are over 13 games vs 16 in '09.....his average yards thrown was 281...over 16 games it's 4496...20 TD's over 13 games translates to 24 over 16. and his QB rating was higher, his ypa was up almost half a yard.

Keep in mind he did this playing against two defenses every game with two rookies starting on the OL...his blind side protector coming off knee surgery, and virtually no running game since uberman hillis was sent packing...oh and of course the worst coach ever calling the plays

so I'm not sure why you don't see any improvement

gyldenlove
02-07-2011, 06:04 PM
That's pretty much it.

Seeing the team rally behind Tebow twice...once for a late-game victory against Houston and once for a late-game loss on the last play of the game to San diego...was enough to convince me that Tebow is the guy here.

He had an impressive start for a rookie.

So much so, that I'm already excited for next season.

Tebow + #2 pick defensive player + as many possible free agent DT/LB/S/OL = an improved team.

Exactly, the way the team responded to Tebow was good to see. The whole team looked lost out there with Mcdaniels and Orton, there was no fight, but with Tebow it looked like they cared again.

gyldenlove
02-07-2011, 06:05 PM
Orton's numbers for 2010 are over 13 games vs 16 in '09.....his average yards thrown was 281...over 16 games it's 4496...20 TD's over 13 games translates to 24 over 16. and his QB rating was higher, his ypa was up almost half a yard.

Keep in mind he did this playing against two defenses every game with two rookies starting on the OL...his blind side protector coming off knee surgery, and virtually no running game since uberman hillis was sent packing...oh and of course the worst coach ever calling the plays

so I'm not sure why you don't see any improvement

Welcome to the conversation that has all been said before.

errand
02-07-2011, 06:08 PM
He also did it against less, we had a really easy schedule this year compared to last year, and played several games last year with a broken finger. You can make those soft arguments either way.

OK...so are you gonna say the same stuff should Tebow win 8 games next year vs a last place schedule?

baja
02-07-2011, 06:15 PM
All you need to remember in order to know who your starting QB is going to be is that Pat Bowlen & John Elway have stated the new mission statement of the Broncos is to win back the fans and that spells only one thing, Tim Tebow.

footstepsfrom#27
02-07-2011, 06:20 PM
Broncos unlikely to bring Orton back.
Posted Feb. 07, 2011 @ 11:47 a.m. ET
By PFW staff

• Broncos executive vice president of football operations John Elway recently said it's not a sure thing that QB Kyle Orton will be traded, but a PFW insider said it would be very tough to bring the veteran back. While QB Tim Tebow may not give the team the best chance to win, he does have the backing of the fans in Denver. Elway has talked about reconnecting with the fans and could lose some credibility by sticking with Orton. A daily team observer said he gets the feeling that fans would rather win three or four games with Tebow than six or seven with Orton.
http://www.profootballweekly.com/201...ing-orton-back
I don't need to read another word. What an assanine comment brought on by...wait for it, "a daily team observer". WTF? Do people really pay for this rag? It's not Elway's call anyway it's Fox's.

OABB
02-07-2011, 06:21 PM
How does it feel to have wasted two years?

Not as bad as wasting a whole life, loser.

footstepsfrom#27
02-07-2011, 06:22 PM
How does it feel to have wasted two years?
Better than it feels wasting 40...I guess you'd know.

Dedhed
02-07-2011, 07:12 PM
good then, guess that's settled.If the competition does happen want to place a wager on the winner?

Are you forgetting the fact that they've been in competition since the day Tebow arrived, and that the season ended with Tebow as the starter.

It took all of 1 start for Tebow to prove he brings more to the table than Orton.

cutthemdown
02-07-2011, 07:14 PM
If Tebow turns out to be good then the 2 yrs aren't a waste. If he is a bust then yeah we wasted 2 yrs. Otherwise it was just a brutal way to find the QB that ended up spanking the queefs.

Tebow will come up big in division games running all over the field. No one really likes to admit it but people hate playing against a qb that runs. It's the worst thing a defense wants.

Broncoman13
02-07-2011, 07:23 PM
A team insider also rumored that Cool Starry Bra gave a lap dance to Requiem for six dollars last evening at a local Super Bowl party.

What did he look like?

baja
02-07-2011, 07:35 PM
What did he look like?

Like he just crawled out of a trash compactor....

RaiderH8r
02-07-2011, 07:49 PM
How does it feel to have wasted two years?

We're in year 2 of the five year plan. The Queefs are in year 30 of the five year plan and I'm certain every breath you've ever taken has been a waste so in the broader context of life I can handle it. How do you manage?

Now go choke on a bag of AIDS dicks you bridge trolling twat bag.

bombay
02-07-2011, 08:07 PM
The Broncos need a real QB. Watching the Superbowl was simply a confirmation of that.

Bob's your Information Minister
02-07-2011, 08:10 PM
We're in year 2 of the five year plan.

ROFL

Wake up, moron.

The Broncos are in year 1 of a "gee, hope this **** with Elway and the white Herm Edwards works out" plan.

Year two...that's rich!

Half of McDaniels roster will be dumped in the next year....

oubronco
02-07-2011, 08:12 PM
The Broncos need a real QB. Watching the Superbowl was simply a confirmation of that.

This is so true if we could only get a Aaron Rogers, but where?

bombay
02-07-2011, 08:14 PM
This is so true if we could only get a Aaron Rogers, but where?

Well, yeah. That could be a problem.

epicSocialism4tw
02-07-2011, 08:22 PM
Tebow's the guy folks.

It looks like oubronco, bombay, and that scottdrg dude are the first true haters.

I'm pretty sure that Tebow will win you guys over too by the end of next season.

Punisher
02-07-2011, 08:25 PM
This is so true if we could only get a Aaron Rogers, but where?

http://www.thesportsbank.net/core/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/andrew-luck.jpg

Andrew Luck

epicSocialism4tw
02-07-2011, 08:26 PM
http://www.thesportsbank.net/core/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/andrew-luck.jpg

Andrew Luck

LOL

Your avatar is fitting. "Return of the living dead".

Punisher
02-07-2011, 08:27 PM
LOL

Your avatar is fitting. "Return of the living dead".

thanks dude ^5

cutthemdown
02-07-2011, 08:31 PM
Broncos probably will be in top 10 of the draft next yr lol. Oh well whatever. We still can have fun watching Tebow run around and Elway get involved. The other teams in division more talented then us but none of them like Colts, NE, PITT, you know teams that actually win championships here and there. So they may beat up on us while we are rebuilding but still not win a thing. Only Superbowls carry a real sting. Even that Raider blowout not a big deal anymore because they are about to get plucked of all there FA.

Id like some Bush please.

lostknight
02-07-2011, 08:38 PM
Was listening to Dave Logan earlier today on KOA. He was of the opinion if there was anyway to do it, Kyle Orton would be traded. He didn't see the team moving forward with both players.

zdoor
02-07-2011, 09:14 PM
Was listening to Dave Logan earlier today on KOA. He was of the opinion if there was anyway to do it, Kyle Orton would be traded. He didn't see the team moving forward with both players.

He's right...

2KBack
02-07-2011, 09:28 PM
lots of QBs can improvise under pressure. look at Rapistberger for example. Orton panics when he gets pressured. he has no ability to get away from rushers and he gets sacked as a result. alot of other NFL QBs can hoof their way out of trouble or at least buy an extra second or two to throw the ball away of find their checkoff receiver.

it's almost as if you've not seen any Broncos games with Orton as QB the past 2 years. is your TV broken?

Honestly I feel the same way about most people making this same claim about Orton. Granted, he is no Jake Plummer, but he isn't Brian Griese either. Orton looked much better at manipulating the pocket this season, which is impresive since most of the pressure was coming up the middle. He also improvised more plays this season. People just love to dwell on the plays he didn't make instead of the ones he did. Which is understandable since the whole team had such a forgettable year overall.

It's pretty standard practice around here. Non-flashy player A makes a play: Omane states that he is adequate when everything is working. Player fails to make play in situation that 99% of players will fail in: Omane states that the person isn't good enough and we should cut ties immediately.

Maybe, just maybe, we should be concerned with putting the players in situations with a higher likelihood of success instead of add/dropping to find guys with the periodic midas touch in impossible scenarios.

NFLBRONCO
02-07-2011, 09:40 PM
Only way you might go to a SB with Orton is have lots of high quality players in many positions which sure isn't us right now move on. Tebow is the man now in the future who knows.

yerner
02-07-2011, 10:41 PM
Trading Orton at this point seems insane to me. Starting a season with only Tebow and Brady Q as your Qb's looks like a disaster waiting to happen. Any objective fair observer would say the same thing. It's like giving up on a season before it starts. I mean, isn't Orton exactly the type of QB Fox normally plays? Who cares what the Qb's relationship is like.

strafen
02-07-2011, 10:55 PM
Trading Orton at this point seems insane to me. Starting a season with only Tebow and Brady Q as your Qb's looks like a disaster waiting to happen. Any objective fair observer would say the same thing. It's like giving up on a season before it starts. I mean, isn't Orton exactly the type of QB Fox normally plays? Who cares what the Qb's relationship is like.

Hell no to Orton.
I'd rather take my chances with Tebow than with Orton.
We're not getting anywhere with Orton. Why waste another year in the development of Tebow, that way we will be a year ahead of the curve, rather than waiting till 2012 to get Tebow in there...

Riley
02-07-2011, 11:02 PM
Hell no to Orton.
I'd rather take my chances with Tebow than with Orton.
We're not getting anywhere with Orton. Why waste another year in the development of Tebow, that way we will be a year ahead of the curve, rather than waiting till 2012 to get Tebow in there...

Absolutly correct.
We need to find out if Tebow has got what it takes.
Using Orton as a stopgap would be a waste of a rebuild season.

Besides...
though it may be politicaly incorrect to say it out loud around here...
but there is a strong chance Tebow will develop into a decent QB.

SouthStndJunkie
02-07-2011, 11:17 PM
I know that there has been a lot of talk the last week or so where John Elway said that Kyle Orton could be the starting QB next year.

This is a case of John Elway trying to drive up Kyle Orton's trade value.

Tim Tebow is now the face of the franchise.

He is on the cover of the 2011 Season Ticket Renewal Package.

If you pay in full by March 1st, you get a limited edition Tim Tebow and Demaryius Thomas print.

You don't promote someone like that unless they are the face of the franchise.

strafen
02-07-2011, 11:42 PM
Honestly I feel the same way about most people making this same claim about Orton. Granted, he is no Jake Plummer, but he isn't Brian Griese either. Orton looked much better at manipulating the pocket this season, which is impresive since most of the pressure was coming up the middle. He also improvised more plays this season. People just love to dwell on the plays he didn't make instead of the ones he did. Which is understandable since the whole team had such a forgettable year overall.

It's pretty standard practice around here. Non-flashy player A makes a play: Omane states that he is adequate when everything is working. Player fails to make play in situation that 99% of players will fail in: Omane states that the person isn't good enough and we should cut ties immediately.

Maybe, just maybe, we should be concerned with putting the players in situations with a higher likelihood of success instead of add/dropping to find guys with the periodic midas touch in impossible scenarios.Of course.
The plays he made got us 3 wins, the ones he didn't make got us 9 losses...

footstepsfrom#27
02-08-2011, 12:09 AM
I know that there has been a lot of talk the last week or so where John Elway said that Kyle Orton could be the starting QB next year.

This is a case of John Elway trying to drive up Kyle Orton's trade value.

Tim Tebow is now the face of the franchise.

He is on the cover of the 2011 Season Ticket Renewal Package.

If you pay in full by March 1st, you get a limited edition Tim Tebow and Demaryius Thomas print.

You don't promote someone like that unless they are the face of the franchise.
This.

Anybody can see this coming a mile away with the selection of Fox and Elway as the key guys in the new Bowlen hierarchy of confusion.

NhocCuteGirlz
02-08-2011, 12:21 AM
"Daily team observer" Me or anyone on this board can qualify as that
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The Moops
02-08-2011, 03:13 AM
I agree, I think Elway is trying to drive up Orton's trade value . . .

Orton has proved that he's not a winner. Tebow's a winner without a doubt.

Gort
02-08-2011, 04:49 AM
Honestly I feel the same way about most people making this same claim about Orton. Granted, he is no Jake Plummer, but he isn't Brian Griese either. Orton looked much better at manipulating the pocket this season, which is impresive since most of the pressure was coming up the middle. He also improvised more plays this season. People just love to dwell on the plays he didn't make instead of the ones he did. Which is understandable since the whole team had such a forgettable year overall.

It's pretty standard practice around here. Non-flashy player A makes a play: Omane states that he is adequate when everything is working. Player fails to make play in situation that 99% of players will fail in: Omane states that the person isn't good enough and we should cut ties immediately.

Maybe, just maybe, we should be concerned with putting the players in situations with a higher likelihood of success instead of add/dropping to find guys with the periodic midas touch in impossible scenarios.

Tebow brings his own running game! Orton doesn't.

there's no way in the world Orton could pull off this play...

http://www.sportsgrid.com/nfl/tim-tebow-40-yard-touchdown-run-vs-raiders-video/

Gort
02-08-2011, 04:52 AM
Trading Orton at this point seems insane to me. Starting a season with only Tebow and Brady Q as your Qb's looks like a disaster waiting to happen. Any objective fair observer would say the same thing. It's like giving up on a season before it starts. I mean, isn't Orton exactly the type of QB Fox normally plays? Who cares what the Qb's relationship is like.

Orton's been acting like a whiny little b**** since getting benched.

there is no way this team can afford to open the next season with a divided locker room. Orton has to be traded if Tebow is healthy.

OABB
02-08-2011, 04:59 AM
The Broncos need a real QB. Watching the Superbowl was simply a confirmation of that.

I think it was more of a confirmation for defense.

jhns
02-08-2011, 06:19 AM
Trading Orton at this point seems insane to me. Starting a season with only Tebow and Brady Q as your Qb's looks like a disaster waiting to happen. Any objective fair observer would say the same thing. It's like giving up on a season before it starts. I mean, isn't Orton exactly the type of QB Fox normally plays? Who cares what the Qb's relationship is like.

Tebow outplayed Orton in live game action this past season. The offseason has just started and we have no idea if they will go after a different backup. Quinn may not be here next year either. Your post doesn't make sense.

How is going with the better QB giving up on the season?

2KBack
02-08-2011, 06:25 AM
Tebow brings his own running game! Orton doesn't.

there's no way in the world Orton could pull off this play...

http://www.sportsgrid.com/nfl/tim-tebow-40-yard-touchdown-run-vs-raiders-video/

irrelevant....unless of course you think that by the same argument Tebow is better than most QB's to ever play the game.

Of course, I'm still not arguing Orton over Tebow. I'm arguing against irrational devaluing of Orton. The ability to do something that no other player can do is unique and amazing, and it can be the reason a player might be great....like Tebow. Guys like Elway had that, and it's likely why Bronco fans are so weird about QB's. Keep in mind, just because a player doesn't flash Elwayeque rarity of skill, doesn't mean they suck.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-08-2011, 06:27 AM
Absolutly correct.
We need to find out if Tebow has got what it takes.
Using Orton as a stopgap would be a waste of a rebuild season.

Besides...
though it may be politicaly incorrect to say it out loud around here...
but there is a strong chance Tebow will develop into a decent QB.

Not sure why that would be "politically correct." In fact, that doesn't make any sense at all, especially in the light of folks like DramaLlama calling anyone who has less than 100% faith that Tebow will be an all-pro in year two a "hater."

Further, there's also a strong chance that Tebow will not develop into a starting QB. John Elway, who knows a thing or two about the position and what it takes, has said he's "not an NFL quarterback yet." Is John Elway a hater?

And if so, is it "politically correct" to state that? LOL

Boss Man
02-08-2011, 06:30 AM
here is to hoping that tebow puts in the overtime this offseason with the WRs and QB coach...i mean he is the type of guy who would if there ever was one.

Beantown Bronco
02-08-2011, 06:33 AM
here is to hoping that tebow puts in the overtime this offseason with the WRs and QB coach...i mean he is the type of guy who would if there ever was one.

WRs? Perhaps, if they do it on their own time.

QB coach? Not gonna happen in a lockout.

tsiguy96
02-08-2011, 06:34 AM
Tebow brings his own running game! Orton doesn't.

there's no way in the world Orton could pull off this play...

http://www.sportsgrid.com/nfl/tim-tebow-40-yard-touchdown-run-vs-raiders-video/

to be fair, orton wouldnt have to. that was supposed to be a run play but tebow messed it up.

ol#7
02-08-2011, 06:37 AM
All I know is, that Houston game is the first one I had seen live in two years and it was the most fun I have had watching the Broncos in quite some time. Give Tebow a shot, see what you have and move on from there. We already know Orton's ceiling and it aint that high. Dont see the problem with Brady Quinn as the backup either. Most teams have much worse backups than him. Didnt want Tebow from the start, but now that we have him, time to see if we actually have something in him.

Gort
02-08-2011, 06:47 AM
irrelevant....unless of course you think that by the same argument Tebow is better than most QB's to ever play the game.

Of course, I'm still not arguing Orton over Tebow. I'm arguing against irrational devaluing of Orton. The ability to do something that no other player can do is unique and amazing, and it can be the reason a player might be great....like Tebow. Guys like Elway had that, and it's likely why Bronco fans are so weird about QB's. Keep in mind, just because a player doesn't flash Elwayeque rarity of skill, doesn't mean they suck.

i'm not a huge Elway fan.

Tebow is a 2nd year QB. that's all.

but, Elway and Tebow both share a trait that Orton has shown he doesn't have... and that is that both Elway and Tebow are gamers. on gameday, get them the ball and they'll get it done if it's possible more times than not. at least i think that about Tebow based on what i've seen here, and what he did in college. you don't win 2 national championships and a Heisman Trophy and not have something to contribute at this level.

Orton is a quintessential game manager. he's not going to make the spectacular play for anyone. surround him with talent and he'll thrive. surround him with the 2010 Broncos and he'll perform at the level of everyone else.

with Tebow, we have alot of natural athletic ability. i trust that Dove Valley will do what they need to turn him into an elite QB. it won't happen overnight, but i think it will happen.

i don't think Orton sucks. i just think he's got lead weights in his shoes and couldn't outrun Oprah.

Gort
02-08-2011, 06:49 AM
to be fair, orton wouldnt have to. that was supposed to be a run play but tebow messed it up.

yeah, but compare a busted play by Tebow and a busted play by Orton... which one nets 40+ yards and a TD and which one results in a -5 yard loss as the QB drops to the turf and assumes the fetal position?

2KBack
02-08-2011, 06:50 AM
All I know is, that Houston game is the first one I had seen live in two years and it was the most fun I have had watching the Broncos in quite some time. Give Tebow a shot, see what you have and move on from there. We already know Orton's ceiling and it aint that high. Dont see the problem with Brady Quinn as the backup either. Most teams have much worse backups than him. Didnt want Tebow from the start, but now that we have him, time to see if we actually have something in him.

What makes you think that we know Orton's ceiling? Again, not from a Orton vs. Tebow perspective, but from a Orton has shown steady improvement annually despite playing on ****ty teams perspective.

Gort
02-08-2011, 06:53 AM
What makes you think that we know Orton's ceiling? Again, not from a Orton vs. Tebow perspective, but from a Orton has shown steady improvement annually despite playing on ****ty teams perspective.

Orton = Jeff George.

there. i said it. deal with it.

ROFL!

jhns
02-08-2011, 07:01 AM
Let's look at the facts.

This team scored 25 points per game with Tebow starting.

This team scored 20.69 points per game with Orton starting.

Tebows total puts us at 7th in the league.

Ortons total puts us at 22nd in the league.

Why is anyone arguing in favor of Orton? Tebow played two of his three games against top defenses. Tebow was a rookie. Tebow outplayed a veteran Orton as a rookie....

Why exactly would we go with Orton when we have a younger QB that has proven he is better?

2KBack
02-08-2011, 07:02 AM
i'm not a huge Elway fan.

Tebow is a 2nd year QB. that's all.

but, Elway and Tebow both share a trait that Orton has shown he doesn't have... and that is that both Elway and Tebow are gamers. on gameday, get them the ball and they'll get it done if it's possible more times than not. at least i think that about Tebow based on what i've seen here, and what he did in college. you don't win 2 national championships and a Heisman Trophy and not have something to contribute at this level.

Orton is a quintessential game manager. he's not going to make the spectacular play for anyone. surround him with talent and he'll thrive. surround him with the 2010 Broncos and he'll perform at the level of everyone else.

with Tebow, we have alot of natural athletic ability. i trust that Dove Valley will do what they need to turn him into an elite QB. it won't happen overnight, but i think it will happen.

i don't think Orton sucks. i just think he's got lead weights in his shoes and couldn't outrun Oprah.

I agree with all of this. I just disagree that such mobility is that vital to QB evaluation. Lot's of QB's win using different skills.

I'm all in on the Tebow experiment, mostly because if you are gonna gamble on greatness, might as well be when you can't get much worse. Still, I'd love to keep Orton around because I know this team could win quite a few games if they build up the team around him to at least good. I mean, ****, The Packers gave up 15 points a game this past season. Imagine how many Games even Denver's offense could have won if they only needed to score 16 points.

Gort
02-08-2011, 07:07 AM
Still, I'd love to keep Orton around because I know this team could win quite a few games if they build up the team around him to at least good.

that can't happen. you'd have a divided locker room. if Tebow is healthy, Orton's got to go. if Tebow trips and falls this offseason and is put on IR before training camp and will miss all of the 2011 season (if there is a 2011 season), then yes, Orton gives the team the best chance to win and should stay. but you can't have both Orton and Tebow on the same team and both healthy and not have a huge problem in the locker room. guys who played with Orton will feel loyal to him. Orton will sulk on the bench. it will become an issue. you can't have that.

Quinn will be the backup because he's CHEAP.

WolfpackGuy
02-08-2011, 07:08 AM
I'm far from a Teboz lover, but it doesn't make much sense to go into the season with Orton as starter.

The team is in a mess anyways, so why not hand the reins over to the young guys and see who sticks.

Most knew Orton wouldn't rise to the occasion BEFORE he came to Denver, and he hasn't really done much to change that.

CEH
02-08-2011, 07:12 AM
to be fair, orton wouldnt have to. that was supposed to be a run play but tebow messed it up.

but it also illustrates the one thing Orton can't do. Make a play off schedule.
I remember someone lining up over guard for a play. Rookies make these type of mistakes.

yerner
02-08-2011, 07:26 AM
Tebow outplayed Orton in live game action this past season. The offseason has just started and we have no idea if they will go after a different backup. Quinn may not be here next year either. Your post doesn't make sense.

How is going with the better QB giving up on the season?

Tebow played 3 games. He was average in two of them. The sample size is too low to make any real conclusions. That's the measured objective opinion. If 5 games into the season he isn't getting it done and they have no other option at qb it's a wasted season. John Fox can win games with Orton. It makes this team worse to simply trade him for a mid round pick.

oubronco
02-08-2011, 07:31 AM
What if they get rid of Orton and go into the season with Tebow and Quinn and Tebow gets hurt has to go on IR do you really want to have Quinn as the QB of the Broncos?

jhns
02-08-2011, 07:39 AM
I can see keeping Orton as a backup. The thing is, if there is a cap (which there will be if there is a season), do you really want to pay Orton all of that money? What if that money is the difference in us signing Champ or a couple of decent starters from FA? We need a LOT of new players. I think a big reason Orton will be gone is he would cost way to much to be a backup.

Steve Prefontaine
02-08-2011, 07:50 AM
What if they get rid of Orton and go into the season with Tebow and Quinn and Tebow gets hurt has to go on IR do you really want to have Quinn as the QB of the Broncos?
I get what you’re saying with Orton vs Quinn, but does it really matter for next year? Denver isn’t going to be a contender. If Tebow gets hurt and Orton starts instead of Quinn, maybe Denver gets a couple more wins and ends up 7-9 instead of 5-11. No playoffs either way.

Unless you think Orton can help mentor Tebow, which I don’t see happening, there is no point to having Orton on the team next year. I hope Denver gets what they can for him in a trade this offseason.

strafen
02-08-2011, 08:56 AM
Tebow played 3 games. He was average in two of them. The sample size is too low to make any real conclusions. That's the measured objective opinion. If 5 games into the season he isn't getting it done and they have no other option at qb it's a wasted season. John Fox can win games with Orton. It makes this team worse to simply trade him for a mid round pick.Just because Fox won games with Delhome, doesn't mean he's going to win games with Delhome version 2.0 (Orton)

I can't freaking believe people defending Orton. The guy is a stiff!
He was in Chicago, and he has been here in Denver.
What you've seen is it. No more no less, expect nothing else.
That's it.
Why would you want to have Kyle freakin' Orton as your starting QB?
Quite frankly, I'm embarrassed to have him as our QB.

Kyle Orton. Good grief!

Tombstone RJ
02-08-2011, 08:59 AM
We seen one last night and Tebow isn't no Rogers

If Tebow can become as accurate as Rogers, that would be insanely cool. Maybe he can, maybe he can't, I'm anxious to find out. Rogers is a seasoned vet, it's not like he is a starry-eyed rookie. He's had a lot of time to develop.

Rigs11
02-08-2011, 09:00 AM
Let's look at the facts.

This team scored 25 points per game with Tebow starting.

This team scored 20.69 points per game with Orton starting.

Tebows total puts us at 7th in the league.

Ortons total puts us at 22nd in the league.

Why is anyone arguing in favor of Orton? Tebow played two of his three games against top defenses. Tebow was a rookie. Tebow outplayed a veteran Orton as a rookie....

Why exactly would we go with Orton when we have a younger QB that has proven he is better?

how many of those games orton played was moreno hurt? how about the Oline?

Tombstone RJ
02-08-2011, 09:01 AM
What if they get rid of Orton and go into the season with Tebow and Quinn and Tebow gets hurt has to go on IR do you really want to have Quinn as the QB of the Broncos?

That's an interesting scenario. Tebow's game exposes him to some big hits and it's pretty darn likely he's gonna miss some games.

oubronco
02-08-2011, 09:02 AM
If Tebow can become as accurate as Rogers, that would be insanely cool. Maybe he can, maybe he can't, I'm anxious to find out. Rogers is a seasoned vet, it's not like he is a starry-eyed rookie. He's had a lot of time to develop.

This is true and would be awesome if he could we'll just have to wait and see

SonOfLe-loLang
02-08-2011, 09:13 AM
If Tebow can become as accurate as Rogers, that would be insanely cool. Maybe he can, maybe he can't, I'm anxious to find out. Rogers is a seasoned vet, it's not like he is a starry-eyed rookie. He's had a lot of time to develop.

He's not going to be Aaron Rodgers, he's going to be Tim Tebow. If you want a better model, look at Steve Young or Michael Vick. With a somewhat competant defense, i think Tebow is gonna keep us in games with his ability to make plays with both his legs and arm.

I see zero upside to starting Orton because Kyle is just a distributor, he's not a weapon. Tim is a weapon you have to change your game plan around for. And he's just gonna improve.

jhns
02-08-2011, 09:22 AM
how many of those games orton played was moreno hurt? how about the Oline?

Moreno had a lot of good games with Orton playing. He was hurt in every game that Tebow started.

Morenos numbers in the last 3 weeks:

4 rushes for 5 yards 0 TDs
7 rushes for 19 yards 0 TDs
6 rushes for 41 yards 0 TDs

I don't think Moreno was the difference.

Tebow doesn't need an o-line. That is the point. He is good enough to make those around him better. Orton had the same o-line and great rushing from Moreno in the few weeks before Tebow started and the team didn't score nearly as much...

Missouribronc
02-08-2011, 09:33 AM
Tebow doesn't need an o-line.

:afro:

epicSocialism4tw
02-08-2011, 09:57 AM
He's not going to be Aaron Rodgers, he's going to be Tim Tebow. If you want a better model, look at Steve Young or Michael Vick. With a somewhat competant defense, i think Tebow is gonna keep us in games with his ability to make plays with both his legs and arm.

I see zero upside to starting Orton because Kyle is just a distributor, he's not a weapon. Tim is a weapon you have to change your game plan around for. And he's just gonna improve.

This is a good take.

Tebow is different than even Young or Vick because Tebow prepares at the level of Peyton Manning. Aaron Rogers is 27. When Tebow is 27, I fully expect him to have mastered his coaches offense much like Manning has. Tebow will be one of those guys who functions as a coach on the field like Manning or Brady. Both Manning and Brady have mastered their offenses to the point that their coaches have developed their offenses around them and made a science out of it.

I expect Tebow to be one of those guys who comes to define a new offense.

Rigs11
02-08-2011, 10:01 AM
Moreno had a lot of good games with Orton playing. He was hurt in every game that Tebow started.

Morenos numbers in the last 3 weeks:

4 rushes for 5 yards 0 TDs
7 rushes for 19 yards 0 TDs
6 rushes for 41 yards 0 TDs

I don't think Moreno was the difference.

Tebow doesn't need an o-line. That is the point. He is good enough to make those around him better. Orton had the same o-line and great rushing from Moreno in the few weeks before Tebow started and the team didn't score nearly as much...

Wow a qb that doesn't need an oline? You tebowners have completely lost it. Ask mike vick if he needs a line.

jhns
02-08-2011, 10:27 AM
Wow a qb that doesn't need an oline? You tebowners have completely lost it. Ask mike vick if he needs a line.

It is better than claiming a RB that did far worse with Tebow is part of the reason that Orton wasn't as good. It is better than claiming the o-line was the difference when Orton played with the exact same o-line in the weeks before Tebow started, only without near the results.

Let me correct that statement since you take everything literally. Tebow doesn't need the o-line to be perfect to play well like Orton. Orton is the reason our line was so bad. Just look at the line that he started here behind. It was the best in the league, allowing 11 total sacks, the season before. Orton shows up and suddenly the line is a big weakness. We get rid of Weigmann as a scapegoat and he starts for one of the best o-lines in the game this season.... Tebow doesn't need that. Tebow is like Cutler was. Just having him play makes the o-line a lot better.

SonOfLe-loLang
02-08-2011, 10:30 AM
This is a good take.

Tebow is different than even Young or Vick because Tebow prepares at the level of Peyton Manning. Aaron Rogers is 27. When Tebow is 27, I fully expect him to have mastered his coaches offense much like Manning has. Tebow will be one of those guys who functions as a coach on the field like Manning or Brady. Both Manning and Brady have mastered their offenses to the point that their coaches have developed their offenses around them and made a science out of it.

I expect Tebow to be one of those guys who comes to define a new offense.

Im not sure Tebow will be Peyton because I honestly don't think Tim is that smart. That said, hes a leader and i think his intangibles will take him a long way

OABB
02-08-2011, 10:32 AM
as much as jhns is a doucher, and was wrongity wrongity wrong about Cutler, I doubt he meant the Tebow oline thing literally.

Missouribronc
02-08-2011, 11:36 AM
as much as jhns is a doucher, and was wrongity wrongity wrong about Cutler, I doubt he meant the Tebow oline thing literally.

I'm sure Denver is going to heavily invest in other areas and let the line go to **** while they have a young project at quarterback...

Thankfully, I think John Elway is smarter than that.

jhns
02-08-2011, 11:40 AM
I'm sure Denver is going to heavily invest in other areas and let the line go to **** while they have a young project at quarterback...

Thankfully, I think John Elway is smarter than that.

Wtf?

McDaniels fans never make sense.

The o-line conversation is about how they performed for each QB this past season. Never once did anyone argue anything about what needs to be done to the o-line in the future. Try to keep up.

OABB
02-08-2011, 11:43 AM
Wtf?

McDaniels fans never make sense.

The o-line conversation is about how they performed for each QB this past season. Never once did anyone argue anything about what needs to be done to the o-line in the future. Try to keep up.

I'm confused.

jhns
02-08-2011, 11:45 AM
I'm confused.

I wasn't wrong about Cutler.

RaiderH8r
02-08-2011, 12:01 PM
Im not sure Tebow will be Peyton because I honestly don't think Tim is that smart. That said, hes a leader and i think his intangibles will take him a long way

It's football not theoretical quantum physics. I think he'll do just fine reading a defense. Point is that Tebow wakes up wanting to improve his game and has the drive to make himself better every day. Not many folks have it the way Tebow does.

RaiderH8r
02-08-2011, 12:04 PM
Wow a qb that doesn't need an oline? You tebowners have completely lost it. Ask mike vick if he needs a line.

Of course they need an OL but when protection breaks down or a play gets busted or a receiver runs the wrong route Tebow can tuck and run, scramble out, throw on the run, evade tacklers, break tackles, get to the sticks. All Orton can do is clod hop around like an old lady on a busted hip before going fetal and taking the sack. That's Orton all day, every day. Check down, check down, go fetal, take sack. Orton is not a playmaker. Period. And this club needs playmakers not game managers.

oubronco
02-08-2011, 01:01 PM
http://www.rotoworld.com/images/headshots/NFL/3214.jpg
Updating previous items, Kyle Orton is scheduled to receive nearly $9 million in 2011 salary and bonuses.

The total is $8.879 million, coming from a $7.379 million base salary and a $1.5 million offseason roster bonus. Orton is good enough to warrant the bonus, but we can't imagine the Broncos paying Orton the nearly $7.4 million salary if Tim Tebow is the starting quarterback in 2011. They're likely to listen to all trade proposals once a new CBA is finalized.

2/8/2011 12:03:00 PM

Missouribronc
02-08-2011, 01:13 PM
Wtf?

McDaniels fans never make sense.

The o-line conversation is about how they performed for each QB this past season. Never once did anyone argue anything about what needs to be done to the o-line in the future. Try to keep up.

You're right. The offensive line conversation has no bearing on 2011 because Tebow doesn't need an offensive line.

How stupid of me.

A-11 offense, right, isn't that what its called?

jhns
02-08-2011, 01:18 PM
You're right. The offensive line conversation has no bearing on 2011 because Tebow doesn't need an offensive line.

How stupid of me.

A-11 offense, right, isn't that what its called?

Typical McDaniels fan response. Who cares about making sense, right?

2KBack
02-08-2011, 01:29 PM
9 pages of discussion, one person mentions McDaniels....

anyone surprised who it is?

jhns
02-08-2011, 01:33 PM
9 pages of discussion, one person mentions McDaniels....

anyone surprised who it is?

You are the only one. I mentioned McDaniels fans. It has nothing to do with McDaniels. It just explains why that poster doesn't make sense. You are pulling a McDaniels fan right now.

jhns
02-08-2011, 01:43 PM
one is McD

This guy brought up McDaniels first. Are you all suprised?

It seems 2K really is a McDaniels fan. He shows all of the signs. Unable to read, unable to count, and unable to make sense. I really don't remember any of his posts but I would bet he argued McDaniels was doing a good job here.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-08-2011, 01:50 PM
McDaniels fans have nothing to do with McDaniels.

McDaniels McDaniels? McDaniels. Oh, I see! McDaniels!

I mis-McDaniels what you McDaniels when you McDaniels McDaniels.

Don't worry. The sackless mods are helpless (useless?) against his incredible powers of persuasion.

jhns
02-08-2011, 01:53 PM
http://www.rotoworld.com/images/headshots/NFL/3214.jpg
Updating previous items, Kyle Orton is scheduled to receive nearly $9 million in 2011 salary and bonuses.

The total is $8.879 million, coming from a $7.379 million base salary and a $1.5 million offseason roster bonus. Orton is good enough to warrant the bonus, but we can't imagine the Broncos paying Orton the nearly $7.4 million salary if Tim Tebow is the starting quarterback in 2011. They're likely to listen to all trade proposals once a new CBA is finalized.

2/8/2011 12:03:00 PM

Exactly what I said earlier. It would be a waste to pay a backup that much money. This is especially true when looking at the number of needs this team has. It would help this team a lot more to use those resources elsewhere.

jhns
02-08-2011, 01:55 PM
McDaniels fans have nothing to do with McDaniels.

McDaniels McDaniels? McDaniels. Oh, I see! McDaniels!

I mis-McDaniels what you McDaniels when you McDaniels McDaniels.

Don't worry. The sackless mods are helpless (useless?) against his incredible powers of persuasion.

Moose is crying again.

HAT
02-08-2011, 01:59 PM
McDaniels fans have nothing to do with McDaniels.

McDaniels McDaniels? McDaniels. Oh, I see! McDaniels!

I mis-McDaniels what you McDaniels when you McDaniels McDaniels.

Don't worry. The sackless mods are helpless (useless?) against his incredible powers of persuasion.

http://www.yodawgyo.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/xzibit-yo-marklar-we-herd-you-like-marklar.jpg

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-08-2011, 02:00 PM
"McDaniels. McDaniels. McDaniels."
-jhns

/sits on thumb
-mods

"McDaniels McDaniels McDaniels!"
-jhns

/thumbs own ass, then nose
-mods

"McDaniels has nothing to do with McDaniels fans, you McDaniels-headed McDaniels!"
-jhns

/fist in ass
-mods

Dedhed
02-08-2011, 02:02 PM
What if they get rid of Orton and go into the season with Tebow and Quinn and Tebow gets hurt has to go on IR do you really want to have Quinn as the QB of the Broncos?

I'd rather have Quinn as a backup and whatever 2nd or 3rd round defensive draftee than have Orton collecting dust for a year before he leaves and we get nothing in return.

jhns
02-08-2011, 02:06 PM
Moose is funny when he cries.

"Mods! Come protect me from that evil jhns! He keeps making my eyes spring leaks while weird wailing noises come from my mouth! I don't know what this phenomenon is but I don't like it one bit! Please... Help me!"

It is OK moose. When you are done embarrassing yourself, you can always hide behind another new screen name.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-08-2011, 02:08 PM
"McDaniels fans have nothing to do with McDaniels."
-the dumbest thing ever said on this forum for it's sheer inanity.

jhns
02-08-2011, 02:11 PM
"McDaniels fans have nothing to do with McDaniels."
-the dumbest thing ever said on this forum for it's sheer inanity.

Only to a McDaniels fan. They aren't smart enough to figure it out.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-08-2011, 02:13 PM
You're too easy to toy with. It's not even a challenge.

Someone puts the banana peel out there, and just wait for you to come find it with your foot. Generally takes no time at all.

strafen
02-08-2011, 02:13 PM
Moose is funny when he cries.

"Mods! Come protect me from that evil jhns! He keeps making my eyes spring leaks while weird wailing noises come from my mouth! I don't know what this phenomenon is but I don't like it one bit! Please... Help me!"

It is OK moose. When you are done embarrassing yourself, you can always hide behind another new screen name.And it ain't the truth
Bwhahaha!!! Ha! ROFL! :strong:LOL Hilarious!

Tombstone RJ
02-08-2011, 02:14 PM
"McDaniels fans have nothing to do with McDaniels."
-the dumbest thing ever said on this forum for it's sheer inanity.

Not sure it's the dumbest thing ever posted on the OMane, I mean, there's a lot of stupidity 'round these parts... but it's probably pushing a spot in the "Top 100 Stupid Posts for 2011."

jhns
02-08-2011, 02:16 PM
You're too easy to toy with. It's not even a challenge.

Someone puts the banana peel out there, and just wait for you to come find it with your foot. Generally takes no time at all.

LOL

Says the guy crying.

"Mods, come protect me! Please!"

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-08-2011, 02:20 PM
And it ain't the truth
Bwhahaha!!! Ha! ROFL! :strong:LOL Hilarious!

For once, I agree with strafen. It ain't the truth.

As for me "crying" for the mods, that's not what is happening at all. I would just like to get through one non-McDaniels non-Cutler thread without jhns showing up and putting his ass on display. But since the mods are either too chicken**** or too stupid to do anything about it, it'll never happen.

That's not crying. It's pointing out the obvious. And while I enjoy owning jhns and his ridiculously stupid takes while he derails thread after thread, it does tend to get a little old.

Inkana7
02-08-2011, 02:20 PM
Cutler fans....never change!

HAT
02-08-2011, 02:28 PM
I'd rather have Quinn as a backup and whatever 2nd or 3rd round defensive draftee than have Orton collecting dust for a year before he leaves and we get nothing in return.

Exactly. Now is not the time to hedge and keep Orton around for competition or 'just in case'. I dig Orton but he is a waste as a back up...a waste of mone & a waste of resources.

People want to think that not starting Tebow cost McD his job and that he thought Tebow wasn't ready. It's my belief that McD wanted to sit on Tebow all year, trade Orton this off-season & unleash Tebow for better or for worse next September.

Orton got his extension.

Trade for Quinn, giving freedom to draft Tebow...(Protect against an early season Orton injury).

Hope for a successful 16 game season from Orton to A) Increase his trade value & B) Give the impression to vets & fans that you are still trying to 'win now'.

Trade Orton, go all in with Tebow and a former 1st round pick & former starter in Quinn & grab a street FA for 3rd string emergency.

Granted, the results didn't work out so well for McD but there is no reason that same basic strategy isn't still in play.

Go all in with Tebow and don't worry about having Orton as a back up if Tebow's style of play is going to get him hurt. If Tebow sucks or is injury prone, the season is shot anyway and they'll be in position to assess what to do going forward.

My gut says Tebow is a legit starter but giving him the reigns for 16 games is the best way to find out.

Tombstone RJ
02-08-2011, 02:28 PM
For once, I agree with strafen. It ain't the truth.

As for me "crying" for the mods, that's not what is happening at all. I would just like to get through one non-McDaniels non-Cutler thread without jhns showing up and putting his ass on display. But since the mods are either too chicken**** or too stupid to do anything about it, it'll never happen.

That's not crying. It's pointing out the obvious. And while I enjoy owning jhns and his ridiculously stupid takes while he derails thread after thread, it does tend to get a little old.

might I recommend the ignore option?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-08-2011, 02:31 PM
might I recommend the ignore option?

Yeah, I'm quickly moving in that direction. There was hope at one point that he could actually contribute, so I left him off ignore, but there's absolutely nothing that he brings to the table. At this point, he's taking things off the table, and making the forums a pretty boring, predictable place to be.

Actually, I had him on ignore once, but with folks quoting him, it did me zero good. So until there's a mass-ignore, it's not going to do anyone any good. Except for jhns, who evidently gets off on having people dislike him.

Odd character trait.

jhns
02-08-2011, 02:31 PM
For once, I agree with strafen. It ain't the truth.

As for me "crying" for the mods, that's not what is happening at all. I would just like to get through one non-McDaniels non-Cutler thread without jhns showing up and putting his ass on display. But since the mods are either too chicken**** or too stupid to do anything about it, it'll never happen.

That's not crying. It's pointing out the obvious. And while I enjoy owning jhns and his ridiculously stupid takes while he derails thread after thread, it does tend to get a little old.

LOL

"Waahhhhhh, I'm not crying! Wahhhhhhhh!"....

You do realize that you McDaniels fans are the ones that derailed the thread, right? I was discussing the topic until one of you started making no sense. Then more of you come in crying about me talking about McDaniels because I call someone a McDaniels fan. You haven't had an on topic post in the past few pages. Not one. Keep crying though. It is entertaining.

Of course the McDaniels fans don't realize they are just as responsible for this thread derailment. They lack an education.

oubronco
02-08-2011, 02:36 PM
I'd rather have Quinn as a backup and whatever 2nd or 3rd round defensive draftee than have Orton collecting dust for a year before he leaves and we get nothing in return.

I would too if it netted us a defensive starter

jhns
02-08-2011, 02:38 PM
Yeah, I'm quickly moving in that direction. There was hope at one point that he could actually contribute, so I left him off ignore, but there's absolutely nothing that he brings to the table. At this point, he's taking things off the table, and making the forums a pretty boring, predictable place to be.

Actually, I had him on ignore once, but with folks quoting him, it did me zero good. So until there's a mass-ignore, it's not going to do anyone any good. Except for jhns, who evidently gets off on having people dislike him.

Odd character trait.

"Wahhhh Jhns doesn't want to be my friend.... Wahhhhhhhhh! I can't use the ignore because it doesn't do everything for me! I can't just skip his posts without it! That would take some maturity, which I clearly lack! Wahhhhhhh! Mods, save me! Wahhhhhhhh"

oubronco
02-08-2011, 02:39 PM
For once, I agree with strafen. It ain't the truth.

As for me "crying" for the mods, that's not what is happening at all. I would just like to get through one non-McDaniels non-Cutler thread without jhns showing up and putting his ass on display. But since the mods are either too chicken**** or too stupid to do anything about it, it'll never happen.

That's not crying. It's pointing out the obvious. And while I enjoy owning jhns and his ridiculously stupid takes while he derails thread after thread, it does tend to get a little old.

You could use the ignore feature

Dedhed
02-08-2011, 02:45 PM
I would too if it netted us a defensive starter

With where we're at defensively, anything 4th round or higher nets a possible starter.

And I think we can get better value than that for Orton. The CBA is the real wrench in the works though.

Rigs11
02-08-2011, 02:45 PM
geez what an annoying poster.hey jizz do you have a tebow poster on you bedroom ceiling and a mcd picture on your toilet?

oubronco
02-08-2011, 02:47 PM
With where we're at defensively, anything 4th round or higher nets a possible starter.

And I think we can get better value than that for Orton. The CBA is the real wrench in the works though.

True, I still believe they will work it out before the deadline

jhns
02-08-2011, 02:52 PM
geez what an annoying poster.hey jizz do you have a tebow poster on you bedroom ceiling and a mcd picture on your toilet?

Nope. Do you still think Orton didn't do as well as Tebow because Moreno was injured when Orton played?

Rigs11
02-08-2011, 03:13 PM
Nope. Do you still think Orton didn't do as well as Tebow because Moreno was injured when Orton played?

from your stats

4 rushes for 5 yards 0 TDs dont forget buckhalter and ball for 23yds
7 rushes for 19 yards 0 TDs - dont forget buckhalter and ball for 80 yds
6 rushes for 41 yards 0 TDs dont forget buckhalter and ball for 29 yds


tebow won one game against arguably the worst defense in the league. In that 3 game span he had 5 tds and 3 ints, and was sacked 6 times.And you want to proclaim him the starter?

Steve Prefontaine
02-08-2011, 03:30 PM
from your stats

4 rushes for 5 yards 0 TDs dont forget buckhalter and ball for 23yds
7 rushes for 19 yards 0 TDs - dont forget buckhalter and ball for 80 yds
6 rushes for 41 yards 0 TDs dont forget buckhalter and ball for 29 yds


tebow won one game against arguably the worst defense in the league. In that 3 game span he had 5 tds and 3 ints, and was sacked 6 times.And you want to proclaim him the starter?
Yes.

Tebow performed well as a rookie while many proclaimed (even many here on the OM) that he wasn't ready to play. Is he going to progress and be the long term answer at QB? I don't know. But I do know Orton is not.

Tebow should get a chance to start next year and see how he performs. If he bombs, Denver moves on and looks for another solution.

Nothing is lost by "losing" Orton in a trade. He is irrelevant to Denver's future, except hopefully for the pick we receive in return.

TheReverend
02-08-2011, 03:38 PM
from your stats

4 rushes for 5 yards 0 TDs dont forget buckhalter and ball for 23yds
7 rushes for 19 yards 0 TDs - dont forget buckhalter and ball for 80 yds
6 rushes for 41 yards 0 TDs dont forget buckhalter and ball for 29 yds


tebow won one game against arguably the worst defense in the league. In that 3 game span he had 5 tds and 3 ints, and was sacked 6 times.And you want to proclaim him the starter?

...and the other two games were against 2 of the best defenses in the league (SD #1 in the NFL in total and pass, Oak #2 in the NFL vs the pass), and we were significantly more competitive in those outtings than we were earlier in the season under veteran QB Kyle Orton (losing by 16 vs losing by 45, and losing by 5 vs losing by 21). And you don't want to proclaim him the starter?

strafen
02-08-2011, 03:41 PM
...and the other two games were against 2 of the best defenses in the league (SD #1 in the NFL in total and pass, Oak #2 in the NFL vs the pass), and we were significantly more competitive in those outtings than we were earlier in the season under veteran QB Kyle Orton (losing by 16 vs losing by 45, and losing by 5 vs losing by 21). And you don't want to proclaim him the starter?They love Orton.
Orton is the ****!
Man, I can't wait until we ship his lame ass out of town.
I wonder if these people what they have is a man-crush for Orton, because as a QB he sucks!

jhns
02-08-2011, 05:24 PM
from your stats

4 rushes for 5 yards 0 TDs dont forget buckhalter and ball for 23yds
7 rushes for 19 yards 0 TDs - dont forget buckhalter and ball for 80 yds
6 rushes for 41 yards 0 TDs dont forget buckhalter and ball for 29 yds


tebow won one game against arguably the worst defense in the league. In that 3 game span he had 5 tds and 3 ints, and was sacked 6 times.And you want to proclaim him the starter?

Umm, I didn't forget the other RBs. You are the one that claimed Moreno being hurt while Orton was starting had something to do with the conversation....

With the additional totals you just gave, that is about 65 yards from the RBs per game. That is just over 1000 yards if you put that total over an entire season. That is good for the worst rushing attack in the NFL.... I'm still not getting your point.

Tebow outplayed Orton. This is a fact. There is no spin that can take away from what the rookie Tebow did.