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View Full Version : My case for Fairley, or if he is taken Darius.


iforgotmypassword
02-01-2011, 10:47 PM
One big thing constantly said about Fox is that he always has a strong defense. Peppers is constantly brought up with this. But I wanna look at Kris Jenkins.... he was a young stud, an abosolute clog in the middle, and when you look at John Fox's best defense ever, 2002, some would argue that Jenkins was the best player on that defense. The next year was also one of Carolina's best defensive years. After this Jenkins got hurt and eventually became a fat tub of **** and traded, but while they had a young stud in the middle is when thier defense was truely nasty. Jenkins is rarely brought up with Fox. I just beleive that a great DB is a luxury, a Great DE is very important, but a great DT is a neccesity.

footstepsfrom#27
02-01-2011, 10:51 PM
Kris Jenkins was a 2nd round draft pick.

Broncosfreak_56
02-01-2011, 10:52 PM
Kris Jenkins was a 2nd round draft pick.

I think you missed the point.

Dedhed
02-01-2011, 10:53 PM
I think you missed the point.
I think you did.

Broncosfreak_56
02-01-2011, 11:00 PM
I think you did.

You are so smart and clever.


Anyway, back on topic. We have not had a dominant DT since Trevor Pryce. Now that we are picking this high, we need to get someone who can be elite. Whether it be first round or second round, it needs to be addressed. I am happy we have a head coach that realizes the importance of a good line.

Dr. Broncenstein
02-01-2011, 11:09 PM
Either one of these guys would make me a supremely happy Bronco fan come draft day. It is mathematically guaranteed that we can get either Fairley or Dareus. So by my math, there is no way we draft either of them.

footstepsfrom#27
02-01-2011, 11:19 PM
I think you missed the point.
Not at all.

bronco0608
02-01-2011, 11:21 PM
Fox prefers (going on history) two athletic fat ****s in the middle. For years he started Kris Jenkins and that huge Somoan guy in the middle of his 4-3.

Whatever the case, defensive line is where it is at.

Building the defense from the back up is retarded. Two years ago we had two pro bowlers in the back four in Dawkins and Bailey and a darn good cover corner in Goodman who had 5 ints and our defense was giving up 30 some odd points a game during the back half the season. Our pass defense was ranked 5th or something.

We have been last in run defense the past two seasons. If we go DB with 2nd pick, good lord.

bronco0608
02-01-2011, 11:26 PM
In 2009, Arizona had three pro-bowlers in their secondary:

Dominquie Rodgers Cromartie
Adrian Wilson
Antrelle Roll

And they were ranked 21st in points given up.

You don't build from the back up. Its stupid to do so.

strafen
02-01-2011, 11:29 PM
Marcell Dareus I wouldn't mind at all having him.
Anytime you pick up a defensive player from Alabama, it'd more often than not a good player, an impact type player...
Dareus is a really versatile player. He plays the run and the pass great and can play in the 3-4 and 4-3
He's also a powerful pass rusher.
I've got most of this information on him by reading pieces and bits from several sources.

extralife
02-01-2011, 11:31 PM
In 2009, Arizona went to the super bowl

fixed

bronco0608
02-01-2011, 11:41 PM
fixed

::)

They went to the bowl for the 2008 season.

During the 2009 playoffs, the gave up 45 pts a game in their two playoff games. 45 pts in one game, then 45 pts in another game with their 3/4ths pro bowl secondary.

Understand now?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-01-2011, 11:47 PM
If we were planning on rebuilding this defense in one off season, I'd agree that it's dumb or "retarded" to draft a CB at #2.

However, we won't be rebuilding this defense in one off season. Not going to happen. Because of this, it's imperative to take a guy who will not only be impactful immediately, but one who will be impactful in any system we institute and for a very, very long time. Also wouldn't mind avoiding a bust.

With each of these considerations, Peterson is the pick. I won't be upset if we end up with Fairley or Dareus, but I can definitely see value in picking Peterson at #2.

Dedhed
02-02-2011, 12:02 AM
Whether it be first round or second round, it needs to be addressed.

I think you've also missed the fact that there isn't a single person on the OM arguing that the DL doesn't need to be addressed in the first two rounds.

extralife
02-02-2011, 12:04 AM
::)

They went to the bowl for the 2008 season.

ehh, close enough

my point is there is no particular way to build a team. you get good players and you get good coaches and you play to whatever your strengths are.

Dedhed
02-02-2011, 12:06 AM
If we were planning on rebuilding this defense in one off season, I'd agree that it's dumb or "retarded" to draft a CB at #2.

However, we won't be rebuilding this defense in one off season. Not going to happen. Because of this, it's imperative to take a guy who will not only be impactful immediately, but one who will be impactful in any system we institute and for a very, very long time. Also wouldn't mind avoiding a bust.

With each of these considerations, Peterson is the pick. I won't be upset if we end up with Fairley or Dareus, but I can definitely see value in picking Peterson at #2.It's true. The only thing that's "retarded" is thinking that we can build a defensive roster worthy of respect in a single draft.

Well, I personally think it's also "retarded" to skip over truly elite talent, but I'm in the minority on that one, I guess.

bronco0608
02-02-2011, 12:07 AM
If we were planning on rebuilding this defense in one off season, I'd agree that it's dumb or "retarded" to draft a CB at #2.

However, we won't be rebuilding this defense in one off season. Not going to happen. Because of this, it's imperative to take a guy who will not only be impactful immediately, but one who will be impactful in any system we institute and for a very, very long time. Also wouldn't mind avoiding a bust.

With each of these considerations, Peterson is the pick. I won't be upset if we end up with Fairley or Dareus, but I can definitely see value in picking Peterson at #2.

Name the last CB to go in the top 3 or 4 of the draft. I don't think you can.

Hell, Champ Bailey ran a 4.28 at the combine and he went 7th! That's right, 7th! You are telling me that Champ wasn't the greatest prospect ever at CB when he entered?

CBs are luxuries for defense, not a necessity. If Fox plays zone a lot, what good is a Patrick Peterson?

As Champ has shown, having a lockdown cover corner doesn't do diddly for your defense. The last 3 out of the 4 years we have given up over 400 pts in a season. That's ridiculous. And Champ was shutting down fools on each one of those teams.

Take corners in the 2nd round if you want, but you have to get studs up front first.

Why should the Broncos be the first team to select a corner with the 2nd pick overall?

Its not going to happen.

Dedhed
02-02-2011, 12:13 AM
ehh, close enough

my point is there is no particular way to build a team. you get good players and you get good coaches and you play to whatever your strengths are.

I don't get how that's difficult to understand.

You're not gonna be a great defense with Sydquan, Hill, and Dawkins in the secondary any sooner than you will with Marcus Thomas, DJ, Haggan, and Hunter on the front 7. They all need to be upgraded.

The degree to which they are upgraded is far more important than the order in which they're upgraded.

bronco0608
02-02-2011, 12:13 AM
Well, I personally think it's also "retarded" to skip over truly elite talent, but I'm in the minority on that one, I guess.

How do you know that Patrick Peterson is THE elite talent at number two?

Is he any better than AJ Green? You could argue that Green is a better prospect than Peterson at his position.

So the Broncos should take Green. Because it is "retarded" to skip over truly elite talent, but I'm in the minority on that one, I guess

Dedhed
02-02-2011, 12:25 AM
Name the last CB to go in the top 3 or 4 of the draft. I don't think you can.

Hell, Champ Bailey ran a 4.28 at the combine and he went 7th! That's right, 7th! You are telling me that Champ wasn't the greatest prospect ever at CB when he entered?

CBs are luxuries for defense, not a necessity. If Fox plays zone a lot, what good is a Patrick Peterson?

As Champ has shown, having a lockdown cover corner doesn't do diddly for your defense. The last 3 out of the 4 years we have given up over 400 pts in a season. That's ridiculous. And Champ was shutting down fools on each one of those teams.

Take corners in the 2nd round if you want, but you have to get studs up front first.

Why should the Broncos be the first team to select a corner with the 2nd pick overall?

Its not going to happen.This is entirely specious.

"Don't do something because it's not been done by others". That's your take?

Wasn't Mario Williams on the 2nd worst defense in the NFL? How does that play on your take? DEs must not have an impact. Mario is proof. So is Adam Carriker. Dan Willliams was a first round DT, helped the Cardinals to the 29th ranked defense. DTs must not be valuable either, right? Tyson Alualu was a top 10 DT, the Jaguars must have had an awesome defense with the addition of him, umm..oops. I guess he's not valuable either. That must mean that DTs really aren't valuable.

Can we please stop with he dim-witted "we've been bad with Champ so CBs have no value" takes. They're just beyond tired at this point. Taking a single player from a bad unit and saying that position has no value because of it is just day one stupid.

Dedhed
02-02-2011, 12:28 AM
How do you know that Patrick Peterson is THE elite talent at number two?I don't, and you know nothing about any of the DL either.

Is he any better than AJ Green? You could argue that Green is a better prospect than Peterson at his position.Well, actually Peterson completely shut Green down head to head, but I'm sure you've studied that film and are well aware of that fact.

So the Broncos should take Green. Because it is "retarded" to skip over truly elite talent, but I'm in the minority on that one, I guess
See above.

ol#7
02-02-2011, 12:30 AM
Ohhhh snap, now you've done it, gone and angered up Dedhead and the Patrick Peterson brigade! :punched:

Shawn Springs I believe was the highest a CB has ever been taken and that was 3rd.

We have absolutely nothing in the middle of the line, especially if moving to a 4-3, at least we have some promising young DB's, and I wouldnt mind adding a Jimmy Smith in the 2nd or finding some safety help, but please shore up the D-line with a potential difference maker before doing anything else!

bronco0608
02-02-2011, 12:34 AM
This is entirely specious.

"Don't do something because it's not been done by others". That's your take?

Wasn't Mario Williams on the 2nd worst defense in the NFL? How does that play on your take? DEs must not have an impact. Mario is proof. So is Adam Carriker. Dan Willliams was a first round DT, helped the Cardinals to the 29th ranked defense. DTs must not be valuable either, right? Tyson Alualu was a top 10 DT, the Jaguars must have had an awesome defense with the addition of him, umm..oops. I guess he's not valuable either. That must mean that DTs really aren't valuable.

Can we please stop with he dim-witted "we've been bad with Champ so CBs have no value" takes. They're just beyond tired at this point. Taking a single player from a bad unit nd saying that position has no value because of it is just day one stupid.

Weren't you the dim-wit that said because players from position x (dline) bust, so its better to go with a player from postion y (secondary) because they don't bust as much?

One has nothing to do with the other.

The fact of the matter is that no one has Peterson going in the top two. No one. It's either Fairley or Bowers. Why is that? Because they are the two top rated players in the draft.

You keep thinking that Peterson is the only "elite" prospect at number which is moronic.

I could see if the top four players were a guard, QB, LB, and CB and you are harping that we take Peterson because it is the only logical thing to do. I get that. But in this draft, the top four players are a DT, DE, CB, and a WR. We are not reaching to take a position of need. We are taking the right player - which will be dline.

You seem to have trouble understanding this.

bronco0608
02-02-2011, 12:40 AM
Well, actually Peterson completely shut Green down head to head, but I'm sure you've studied that film and are well aware of that fact.


See above.

They didn't even play each other this year, numbnuts. But I'm sure you know that. And when they did play each other, Georgia had Mohhamed Massoqui as their number one receiver. 50 pts Georgia put up that game. But Peterson shut down Green!! Shut him down!!

What was that, three years ago? ROFL!

Dedhed
02-02-2011, 12:45 AM
Weren't you the dim-wit that said because players from position x (dline) bust, so its better to go with a player from postion y (secondary) because they don't bust as much?

One has nothing to do with the other. This is like saying that a pair has nothing to do with a straight flush in poker. Sure, they're different, but one has a far greater probability of working out for you

The fact of the matter is that no one has Peterson going in the top two. No one. http://newnfldraft.com/
It took until the first google result to come up with that. Amzing this interweb thing.


You keep thinking that Peterson is the only "elite" prospect at number which is moronic.

Green is an elite prospect as well. I think I covered that already though, and I don't recall your response.

footstepsfrom#27
02-02-2011, 12:48 AM
How do you know that Patrick Peterson is THE elite talent at number two?

Is he any better than AJ Green? You could argue that Green is a better prospect than Peterson at his position.

So the Broncos should take Green. Because it is "retarded" to skip over truly elite talent, but I'm in the minority on that one, I guess
You could argue that, but not very well. Peterson is considered by scouts to be the best CB prospect in a decade, and since true shutdown corners are much harder to find than impact recievers, the clear choice is Peterson over Green. On top of that, his physical meausrables are off the chart. In the history of the NFL, there's never been guy his size playing this position. Mix in his value as a both a kickoff and punt return stud and it's clear he's the most versitile and probably the most talented player in the draft. We obviously have zero need for a receiver at the moment so it's a non issue.

Below is a list of the 12 defensive linemen drafted in the top 5 picks overall since 2000. Four are busts, three are stars, three are starters but not stars, and two the jury is still out on.

Ndamukong Su 2nd 2010 (Star)
Mike McCoy 3rd 2010 (IR)
Tyson Jackson 3rd 2009 (jury still out)
Chris Long 2nd 2008 (Starter)
Glen Dorsey 5th 2008 (Starter)
Gaines Adams 4th 2007 (Bust)
Mario Williams 2nd 2006 (Star)
Dewayne Roberson 4th 2003 (Bust)
Julius Peppers 2nd 2002 (Star)
Gerard Warren 3rd 2001 (Bust)
Justin Smith 4th 2001 (Starter)
Courtney Brown 1st 2000 (Bust)

One could probably find similar results at other positions. The point is, whoever you draft in the top five, you can't depend on that player as the key to your draft. The successful teams who build through the draft hit on players throughout the entire draft, which is how we need to draft our new defensive line. We have the ammo in what is a very deep draft for defensive linemen to rebuild the line in one year AND still take the best defensive talent in the draft in Peterson. You're generally better off drafting the best player this high unless it's at a position you have absolutely no need for.

bronco0608
02-02-2011, 12:50 AM
Well, actually Peterson completely shut Green down head to head, but I'm sure you've studied that film and are well aware of that fact.


See above.

Haha, just looked it up. AJ Green scorched Peterson for 99 yards and 1 td on 5 receptions in their last matchup in 2009. Held him to 20 yards a catch, yep, shut him down!

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/recap?gameId=292760061

You frickin tool. But I'm sure you are well aware of that fact. Get out of here.

Dedhed
02-02-2011, 12:52 AM
They didn't even play each other this year and show me where I said they did:welcome:

And when they did play each other, Georgia had Mohhamed Massoqui as their number one receiver. 50 pts Georgia put up that game. But Peterson shut down Green!! Shut him down!!

What was that, three years ago? ROFL!

Published: Oct 5, 2009
Peterson limited Green to one 27-yard catch and a 4-yard reception — for another first down — in the third quarter.

Down the stretch of a 20-13 win, though, LSU used Peterson mostly on the opposite side of the field to key zone coverage.

Green heated up later, making a nice catch against Karnell Hatcher for 32 yards on Georgia’s opening possession of the third quarter and later beating Chris Hawkins twice for 36 yards.

Dedhed
02-02-2011, 12:53 AM
Haha, just looked it up. AJ Green scorched Peterson for 99 yards and 1 td on 5 receptions in their last matchup in 2009. Held him to 20 yards a catch, yep, shut him down!

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/recap?gameId=292760061

You frickin tool. But I'm sure you are well aware of that fact. Get out of here.

I just love that ASSume that was against Peterson, but it pretty much explains your takes. Basing them on stats that have nothing to do with what you're talking about.

HAT
02-02-2011, 12:53 AM
Please, please, please let Caro take that bust Fairley.

Dedhed
02-02-2011, 12:56 AM
Please, please, please let Caro take that bust Fairley.
I'm scared to death of Fairley. I could handle Bowers because he doesn't appear to be a complete tool.

bronco0608
02-02-2011, 12:59 AM
I just love that ASSume that was against Peterson, but it pretty much explains your takes. Basing them on stats that have nothing to do with what you're talking about.

Only your tool ass would make a comment saying that AJ Green was SHUT DOWN by Peterson in a game when Green had 100 yards on 5 receptions.

Give it up. You got owned. Move on.

Dedhed
02-02-2011, 01:01 AM
Haha, just looked it up. AJ Green scorched Peterson for 99 yards and 1 td on 5 receptions in their last matchup in 2009. Held him to 20 yards a catch, yep, shut him down!

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/recap?gameId=292760061

You frickin tool. But I'm sure you are well aware of that fact. Get out of here.

I'm guessing at this point you're trying desperately yo remove your foot from your mouth and come up with some other bogus stat to try to pin a take to.

I'm going to get some sleep while you do. Nighty night skipper.

Dedhed
02-02-2011, 01:02 AM
Only your tool ass would make a comment saying that AJ Green was SHUT DOWN by Peterson in a game when Green had 100 yards on 5 receptions.

Give it up. You got owned. Move on.
Ok skippy, just keep ignoring reality, and stick with Kiper. You'll be fine.

bronco0608
02-02-2011, 01:17 AM
I'm guessing at this point you're trying desperately yo remove your foot from your mouth and come up with some other bogus stat to try to pin a take to.

I'm going to get some sleep while you do. Nighty night skipper.

Ah, you freakin' tool. You left this out from the article you quoted.

Peterson gave up a 46 yard reception to Tavares King to set up AJ Green's go ahead score at the end of the game.

So Green caught a 27 yard ball on him. Tavares King caught a 46 yard ball on him. That's only two plays How much did he give up that game? 120 yards?

But other than that, you know, Peterson was shutting down fools!! Jesus.

http://www.2theadvocate.com/sports/lsu/63515632.html

HAT
02-02-2011, 01:22 AM
I'm scared to death of Fairley. I could handle Bowers because he doesn't appear to be a complete tool.

Denver could be picking first & I'd still rather have Bowers, Dareus, Miller, Peterson & maybe even Prince, Jordan & Heyward.

footstepsfrom#27
02-02-2011, 01:31 AM
Name the last CB to go in the top 3 or 4 of the draft. I don't think you can.
Charles Woodson, Shawn Springs, Bruce Pickiens all went top 4, a host of guys went 5th or 6th.
Hell, Champ Bailey ran a 4.28 at the combine and he went 7th! That's right, 7th! You are telling me that Champ wasn't the greatest prospect ever at CB when he entered?
Ever? Probably not...and Peterson is over 30 pounds bigger than Champ, plus the best return man in the draft. He's two players in one.
CBs are luxuries for defense, not a necessity. If Fox plays zone a lot, what good is a Patrick Peterson?
So we don't need corners at all? Huh? A team with Champ and Peterson wouldn't need to play zone.
As Champ has shown, having a lockdown cover corner doesn't do diddly for your defense. The last 3 out of the 4 years we have given up over 400 pts in a season. That's ridiculous. And Champ was shutting down fools on each one of those teams.
Spurious logic at best. The defensive backfield is a unit, as is the defensive line. I can list a bunch of D-line studs who performed on bad defenses. Mario Williams comes to mind.

montrose
02-02-2011, 01:37 AM
I'd be happy with Bowers or Dareus. Fairley makes me nervous but also has great potential. I could certainly live with Peterson because of his talent but would honestly be a bit dissapointed if the team didn't come away with a DL at #2.

bronco0608
02-02-2011, 01:50 AM
I'd be happy with Bowers or Dareus. Fairley makes me nervous but also has great potential. I could certainly live with Peterson because of his talent but would honestly be a bit dissapointed if the team didn't come away with a DL at #2.

Take Bowers at 2, move Ayers to defensive tackle, a position he played at Tenneesse for a couple of seasons (he is 6'3" 275 right now, beef him up).

Take the other falling DT in the draft (Paea or Liguett) with the first pick in the 2nd round.

You have one mean, talented defensive line.

broncogary
02-02-2011, 05:31 AM
This is entirely specious.

"Don't do something because it's not been done by others". That's your take?

Wasn't Mario Williams on the 2nd worst defense in the NFL? How does that play on your take? DEs must not have an impact. Mario is proof. So is Adam Carriker. Dan Willliams was a first round DT, helped the Cardinals to the 29th ranked defense. DTs must not be valuable either, right? Tyson Alualu was a top 10 DT, the Jaguars must have had an awesome defense with the addition of him, umm..oops. I guess he's not valuable either. That must mean that DTs really aren't valuable.

Can we please stop with he dim-witted "we've been bad with Champ so CBs have no value" takes. They're just beyond tired at this point. Taking a single player from a bad unit and saying that position has no value because of it is just day one stupid.

Obviously you haven't seen enough of Mario Williams to realize what a tremendous underachiever he is.

illbroncsfn
02-02-2011, 05:35 AM
Take Bowers at 2, move Ayers to defensive tackle, a position he played at Tenneesse for a couple of seasons (he is 6'3" 275 right now, beef him up).

Take the other falling DT in the draft (Paea or Liguett) with the first pick in the 2nd round.

You have one mean, talented defensive line.

I'd like to trade down a few spots to around 5, pick up an additional 2nd round choice, draft Vonn Miller at 5, package picks together to get a Paea and Liugett if possible....

End results- 3 starters- possibly 3 impact players for a defense in great need of playmakers.

strafen
02-02-2011, 06:05 AM
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Now you all got to see why I got them on iggy.
Don't waste your time. Put them on ignore. Or don't quote them so I don't ha ve ti read their BS...

Drek
02-02-2011, 06:25 AM
Take Bowers at 2, move Ayers to defensive tackle, a position he played at Tenneesse for a couple of seasons (he is 6'3" 275 right now, beef him up).

Take the other falling DT in the draft (Paea or Liguett) with the first pick in the 2nd round.

You have one mean, talented defensive line.

Ayers was a situational DT at Tennessee, he came in as a linebacker and has already "beefed up" once. His frame doesn't look like one that could carry another 30+ pounds of good weight.

In a 4-3 Ayers is your prototypical strong side end. Stout against the run, great functional strength, and enough pass rush ability to be worth playing on passing downs and help contain the QB.

I'm a big fan of Dareus. He's a versatile, powerful, proven DL. He can be an interior lineman in the 4-3 and either an end or the NT in a 3-4 look. He's got the versatility you see in someone like Sedrick Ellis for the Saints, who have build their hybrid scheme largely around him.

TheChamp24
02-02-2011, 06:30 AM
This whole thinking we shouldn't even look at Peterson is stupid. He is a rare talent that could help this team, and in the long run, we'll need CB help.
Not saying we should take Peterson or else, but he should be looked at. We gotta look at rebuilding the whole defense and taking the best player that will help us do that.

schaaf
02-02-2011, 06:32 AM
Right now, I wouldn't mind Bowers, Dareus, or Peterson.

Fairley scares the **** out of me. I really hope we don't draft him.

TonyR
02-02-2011, 06:36 AM
Ndamukong Su 2nd 2010 (Star)
Mike McCoy 3rd 2010 (IR)
Tyson Jackson 3rd 2009 (jury still out)
Chris Long 2nd 2008 (Starter)
Glen Dorsey 5th 2008 (Starter)
Gaines Adams 4th 2007 (Bust)
Mario Williams 2nd 2006 (Star)
Dewayne Roberson 4th 2003 (Bust)
Julius Peppers 2nd 2002 (Star)
Gerard Warren 3rd 2001 (Bust)
Justin Smith 4th 2001 (Starter)
Courtney Brown 1st 2000 (Bust)


Not at all dismissing your point but to be fair on the players I bolded above, and depending on how you define "bust", it may be worth pointing out that Robertson and Brown had their careers derailed by injury and Warren started for the Pats most of this year. Brown in particular probably would have had a great career were it not for injury.

Ray Finkle
02-02-2011, 06:54 AM
You could argue that, but not very well. Peterson is considered by scouts to be the best CB prospect in a decade, and since true shutdown corners are much harder to find than impact recievers, the clear choice is Peterson over Green. On top of that, his physical meausrables are off the chart. In the history of the NFL, there's never been guy his size playing this position. Mix in his value as a both a kickoff and punt return stud and it's clear he's the most versitile and probably the most talented player in the draft. We obviously have zero need for a receiver at the moment so it's a non issue.

Below is a list of the 12 defensive linemen drafted in the top 5 picks overall since 2000. Four are busts, three are stars, three are starters but not stars, and two the jury is still out on.

Ndamukong Su 2nd 2010 (Star)
Mike McCoy 3rd 2010 (IR)
Tyson Jackson 3rd 2009 (jury still out)
Chris Long 2nd 2008 (Starter)
Glen Dorsey 5th 2008 (Starter)
Gaines Adams 4th 2007 (Bust)
Mario Williams 2nd 2006 (Star)
Dewayne Roberson 4th 2003 (Bust)
Julius Peppers 2nd 2002 (Star)
Gerard Warren 3rd 2001 (Bust)
Justin Smith 4th 2001 (Starter)
Courtney Brown 1st 2000 (Bust)

One could probably find similar results at other positions. The point is, whoever you draft in the top five, you can't depend on that player as the key to your draft. The successful teams who build through the draft hit on players throughout the entire draft, which is how we need to draft our new defensive line. We have the ammo in what is a very deep draft for defensive linemen to rebuild the line in one year AND still take the best defensive talent in the draft in Peterson. You're generally better off drafting the best player this high unless it's at a position you have absolutely no need for.


you have a valid point however, you cannot predict future success of a player based on past results. There really is no "safe" area to draft specific players, you take a chance and hope they have the talent/desire to be an impact.

Bigdawg26
02-02-2011, 07:07 AM
I'm not to sure I would waste my pick on a one year wonder like Bowers or Fairley. I would want my #2 overall pick to be an extremely gifted athlete and a consistently dominant player in college. So I would like Peterson (the most complete cover corner with size and speed), Dareus (who was a dominant player his sophomore and junior year and measure size and speed wise to fairley minus the attitude), or even Von Miller (who is the real best pass rusher in the draft that we could use at SLB and on the line on third down situations). We can always grab phil taylor in the second.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-02-2011, 07:35 AM
Name the last CB to go in the top 3 or 4 of the draft. I don't think you can.

Hell, Champ Bailey ran a 4.28 at the combine and he went 7th! That's right, 7th! You are telling me that Champ wasn't the greatest prospect ever at CB when he entered?

CBs are luxuries for defense, not a necessity. If Fox plays zone a lot, what good is a Patrick Peterson?

As Champ has shown, having a lockdown cover corner doesn't do diddly for your defense. The last 3 out of the 4 years we have given up over 400 pts in a season. That's ridiculous. And Champ was shutting down fools on each one of those teams.

Take corners in the 2nd round if you want, but you have to get studs up front first.

Why should the Broncos be the first team to select a corner with the 2nd pick overall?

Its not going to happen.

When other corners have been drafted has absolutely zero relevance in this discussion.

'Tell me the last defensive lineman who spoke Chinese. You can't! You can't name one! This is relevant!'

We have an opportunity with this second pick that we've never had before. It may be a long while before we have another high pick like this. YES we need defensive line help. Yes, everyone knows that. Beating the same drum over and over again doesn't change the fact that the DL prospects at the top of THIS draft -- not when Champ was drafted, but THIS draft, the draft we're looking at right NOW -- have a higher bust potential than the elite-level corner, who will be here regardless of scheme, coach, etc.

Let's say we draft a 4-3 DL. Defense doesn't improve that much. In three-four years, we're saying goodbye to Fox (assuming he doesn't produce wins, and I think he will, but the way this fanbase turns on coaches is remarkable). The new coach wants to bring in a 3-4. Now we have the unenviable task of either stuffing that square peg into a round hole, trading him and trying to get something in return, or losing him in free agency.

Or we could draft an elite corner, who isn't impacted by what base defensive scheme the team runs, and would therefore stick around through multiple coaches/coordinators if necessary.

Will it happen? I hope not. Could it happen? Absolutely. And with the way we've changed defensive coaches and schemes in this organization, it's definitely something to consider.

Again, I wouldn't be upset if we ended up with one of the DL prospects. I also wouldn't be upset if we got Peterson, who will likely contribute to his team for 10 years at least.

DrFate
02-02-2011, 07:40 AM
I'm scared to death of Fairley.

My thoughts exactly.

Take the best defensive player available. Period.

Rohirrim
02-02-2011, 07:41 AM
Ayers was a situational DT at Tennessee, he came in as a linebacker and has already "beefed up" once. His frame doesn't look like one that could carry another 30+ pounds of good weight.

In a 4-3 Ayers is your prototypical strong side end. Stout against the run, great functional strength, and enough pass rush ability to be worth playing on passing downs and help contain the QB.

I'm a big fan of Dareus. He's a versatile, powerful, proven DL. He can be an interior lineman in the 4-3 and either an end or the NT in a 3-4 look. He's got the versatility you see in someone like Sedrick Ellis for the Saints, who have build their hybrid scheme largely around him.

If I had to guess who Fox would go with first, I would go with Dareus, for the reasons above.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-02-2011, 07:42 AM
My thoughts exactly.

Take the best defensive player available. Period.

BUT y du U want 2 ignORed da DL?!!?

TheChamp24
02-02-2011, 07:58 AM
You could argue that, but not very well. Peterson is considered by scouts to be the best CB prospect in a decade, and since true shutdown corners are much harder to find than impact recievers, the clear choice is Peterson over Green. On top of that, his physical meausrables are off the chart. In the history of the NFL, there's never been guy his size playing this position. Mix in his value as a both a kickoff and punt return stud and it's clear he's the most versitile and probably the most talented player in the draft. We obviously have zero need for a receiver at the moment so it's a non issue.

Below is a list of the 12 defensive linemen drafted in the top 5 picks overall since 2000. Four are busts, three are stars, three are starters but not stars, and two the jury is still out on.

Ndamukong Su 2nd 2010 (Star)
Mike McCoy 3rd 2010 (IR)
Tyson Jackson 3rd 2009 (jury still out)
Chris Long 2nd 2008 (Starter)
Glen Dorsey 5th 2008 (Starter)
Gaines Adams 4th 2007 (Bust)
Mario Williams 2nd 2006 (Star)
Dewayne Roberson 4th 2003 (Bust)
Julius Peppers 2nd 2002 (Star)
Gerard Warren 3rd 2001 (Bust)
Justin Smith 4th 2001 (Starter)
Courtney Brown 1st 2000 (Bust)

One could probably find similar results at other positions. The point is, whoever you draft in the top five, you can't depend on that player as the key to your draft. The successful teams who build through the draft hit on players throughout the entire draft, which is how we need to draft our new defensive line. We have the ammo in what is a very deep draft for defensive linemen to rebuild the line in one year AND still take the best defensive talent in the draft in Peterson. You're generally better off drafting the best player this high unless it's at a position you have absolutely no need for.

Who the **** is Mike McCoy?

Rohirrim
02-02-2011, 08:11 AM
If we're going with a 4-3 and a cover two, isn't the smartest pick Bowers?

schaaf
02-02-2011, 08:12 AM
I think he meant Gerald McCoy.

I can see why him and our offensive coordinator were mixed up.

They look almost identical

Hercules Rockefeller
02-02-2011, 08:12 AM
Haha, just looked it up. AJ Green scorched Peterson for 99 yards and 1 td on 5 receptions in their last matchup in 2009. Held him to 20 yards a catch, yep, shut him down!

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/recap?gameId=292760061

You frickin tool. But I'm sure you are well aware of that fact. Get out of here.

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=302750038

Tell me how Green did against Jimmy Smith

SonOfLe-loLang
02-02-2011, 08:19 AM
If we're going to play mostly cover 2/3, i dont see why Peterson is a necessity. Again, look at the twoteams in the super bowl...they both dominate the line of scrimmage with great front sevens. we need to start building our own great front seven to control the line. Until we do that, our DBs will be covering receivers too long and making too many tackles on running plays.

ColoradoBuff
02-02-2011, 08:40 AM
bronco0608 needs to do research before running his mouth off!

NFLBRONCO
02-02-2011, 08:47 AM
If we're going to play mostly cover 2/3, i dont see why Peterson is a necessity. Again, look at the twoteams in the super bowl...they both dominate the line of scrimmage with great front sevens. we need to start building our own great front seven to control the line. Until we do that, our DBs will be covering receivers too long and making too many tackles on running plays.



On draft day we should put Marcel Peterson maybe NFL will let us have Dareus and Peterson.

Hamrob
02-02-2011, 09:20 AM
Personally, I'd rather go Dline in the first. However, I think you have to pick the player at #2 you feel will be a Pro Bowl caliber player for years to come. If both Fairley and Peterson are equals...you have to take the guy you feel will be the biggest difference maker for your defense.

Here's my take. If Peterson is truly the next Revis...then you take him. Revis is single handedly the most valuable defensive player in the NFL. Why? Because he takes 1/2 of the field away. Look at the guys who are up for DPY...Polumalu, Woodson, Revis...and? The other position that is always up for DPY...is the guy who can get to the QB...this year it's Mathews, in other years it's guys like Doom.

So, I understand the argument for taking Peterson. But, I've watched LSU games and I've seen Peterson...and I just don't think he's as special as Revis/Woodson/Polumalu.

To be honest, the best defensive player in this draft is most likely Von Miller. Or, perhaps it's Bowers, but both Bowers and Fairley are 1yr wonders.

So, in summary, there just aren't any "can't miss" players in this draft....not like last with Su and McCoy. If we take Peterson, Fairley, Bowers, Dareus, Quinn, Miller or Amukamara...we will be getting a very good player...but none of them are "Can't Miss" prospects. Not in my opinion.

Popps
02-02-2011, 09:24 AM
Either one of these guys would make me a supremely happy Bronco fan come draft day. It is mathematically guaranteed that we can get either Fairley or Dareus. So by my math, there is no way we draft either of them.

Exactly. We'll leave Bowers and Dareus on the board, and instead select a luxury pick (Peterson) .... and I'll have to buy a new flat-screen.

RocBronc
02-02-2011, 09:30 AM
[QUOTE=bronco0608;3107777]Name the last CB to go in the top 3 or 4 of the draft. I don't think you can.

Hell, Champ Bailey ran a 4.28 at the combine and he went 7th! That's right, 7th! You are telling me that Champ wasn't the greatest prospect ever at CB when he entered?QUOTE]

Look back at the 1999 draft and tell me that Champ wasn't one of the top 2 prospects of that draft? If you can guarantee me that Petersen will be as good as Champ Bailey wouldn't you take him?

Dr. Broncenstein
02-02-2011, 09:42 AM
Exactly. We'll leave Bowers and Dareus on the board, and instead select a luxury pick (Peterson) .... and I'll have to buy a new flat-screen.

Draft day is my annual springtime faith renewal that everyone in the Broncos front office hates me. I've accepted it.

iforgotmypassword
02-02-2011, 09:47 AM
Take Bowers at 2, move Ayers to defensive tackle, a position he played at Tenneesse for a couple of seasons (he is 6'3" 275 right now, beef him up).

Take the other falling DT in the draft (Paea or Liguett) with the first pick in the 2nd round.

You have one mean, talented defensive line.

I'd rather have the NC kid at DE then Bowers.

NFLBRONCO
02-02-2011, 09:53 AM
I still believe the best drafting teams go BPA vs biggest need. I'd like to see our FO follow that pattern. I think BPA is Peterson overall and if it was me I'd draft him. I expect Denver though will use top pick on DL which I understand totally it's a huge need but, I'd prefer to move down a few slots before we do. I think either Bowers/Dareus will be there at 5. I still believe 1 or 2 QB's will rise into the top 5 come draft day.

Dedhed
02-02-2011, 10:11 AM
Obviously you haven't seen enough of Mario Williams to realize what a tremendous underachiever he is.
So are you using that in support of taking a DL at #2 then?

And what's your answer to every other great individual player on a bad unit? Are all those positions non-impact positions as well. You're missing the forest for the trees by only addressing Mario.

Dedhed
02-02-2011, 10:14 AM
bronco0608 needs to do research before running his mouth off!

I actually enjoy watching him try to backpedal from his pre-research lip flapping.

oubronco
02-02-2011, 10:37 AM
I don't get how that's difficult to understand.

You're not gonna be a great defense with Sydquan, Hill, and Dawkins in the secondary any sooner than you will with Marcus Thomas, DJ, Haggan, and Hunter on the front 7. They all need to be upgraded.

The degree to which they are upgraded is far more important than the order in which they're upgraded.

If you take Dareus in the first then Paea or Taylor in the early second and get mlb Jones you don't think the defense would be on its way to being fixed

enjolras
02-02-2011, 10:39 AM
Building the defense from the back up is retarded. Two years ago we had two pro bowlers in the back four in Dawkins and Bailey and a darn good cover corner in Goodman who had 5 ints and our defense was giving up 30 some odd points a game during the back half the season. Our pass defense was ranked 5th or something.

I disagree here. Building a defense from the OUTSIDE-IN is retarded. Strong defenses are always strong through the middle. Excellent tackles, a great middle linebacker, and hard-hitting responsive safeties is where its at. We have zero of those (and haven't since the day Al Wilson left).

When your strong up the middle the outside is automatically better. A corner is a luxury. Even a really solid defensive end is a luxury. You can find quick outside backers and decent corners all over the place.

If that 2nd pick yields Polamalu you'd make that pick 100% of the time. If that 2nd pick yields Ray Lewis, you'd make that pick 100% of the time. Both instantly make your defense measurably better.

At the second pick an outside linebacker or a corner is a tough pick to make, at least in my opinion.

enjolras
02-02-2011, 10:41 AM
I still believe the best drafting teams go BPA vs biggest need. I'd like to see our FO follow that pattern. I think BPA is Peterson overall and if it was me I'd draft him. I expect fully Denver will use top pick on DL which I understand totally it's a huge need but, I'd prefer to move down a few slots before we do. I think either Bowers/Dareus will be there at 5. I still believe 1 or 2 QB's will rise into the top 5 come draft day.

There is no way your going to be able to trade down to 5. The top of the draft is just too flat for that. There isn't a QB anyone really wants. There isn't a must-have in this draft. You might find someone willing to come up from 15 or so... but that's a long ways to fall just for some extra picks.

I just don't see how they're going to be able to trade out of the 2nd position.

DrFate
02-02-2011, 10:52 AM
Personally, I'd rather go Dline in the first. However, I think you have to pick the player at #2 you feel will be a Pro Bowl caliber player for years to come.

Exactly, on both counts. Dline is the need. But you can't simply take the highest rated dlineman if he is really #12 on your overall board (to make up a number). You draft for the long term, and at this pick (#2 overall) you simply can't miss on the pick by artificially inflating a guy's slot based solely on position.

Fairely is a one-year wonder. Look at his stats. He scares me to death as his boom/bust quotient is not favorable. If the front office is conviced he's the guy, and he's there, grab him. But don't simply take him, and ignore excellent players, because of 'need'. That is short term thinking.

Beantown Bronco
02-02-2011, 11:08 AM
There is no way your going to be able to trade down to 5. The top of the draft is just too flat for that. There isn't a QB anyone really wants. There isn't a must-have in this draft. You might find someone willing to come up from 15 or so... but that's a long ways to fall just for some extra picks.

I just don't see how they're going to be able to trade out of the 2nd position.

Please. You don't KNOW this.

EVERYTHING changes after the combine and pro days. Everything. It happens every year with at least two or three players. All it takes is one team to fall in love with someone and to get nervous that they'll be snatched up by someone else.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-02-2011, 11:12 AM
Please. You don't KNOW this.

EVERYTHING changes after the combine and pro days. Everything. It happens every year with at least two or three players. All it takes is one team to fall in love with someone and to get nervous that they'll be snatched up by someone else.

Yeah, but trading INTO the top 5, let alone the top 2? When was the last time that happened?

Beantown Bronco
02-02-2011, 11:13 AM
Yeah, but trading INTO the top 5, let alone the top 2? When was the last time that happened?

Mark Sanchez

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-02-2011, 11:14 AM
Mark Sanchez

Okay, that's the top 5. Top 2?

PRBronco
02-02-2011, 11:15 AM
If you take Dareus in the first then Paea or Taylor in the early second and get mlb Jones you don't think the defense would be on its way to being fixed

I would climax tbqh. First draft day party ever that I don't have a meltdown.

Beantown Bronco
02-02-2011, 11:15 AM
Okay, that's the top 5. Top 2?

When was the last time the #2 pick wasn't a financial albatross? It won't be this year.

PRBronco
02-02-2011, 11:17 AM
Yeah, but trading INTO the top 5, let alone the top 2? When was the last time that happened?

It'll be a different landscape this year. Top 5 picks have positive value again, not just 21 year old kids making more money than anyone else on your team.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-02-2011, 11:19 AM
When was the last time the #2 pick wasn't a financial albatross? It won't be this year.

We'll see. Nothing is settled yet.

And without a must-have QB at the top, I think it's unlikely that anyone moves in the top 5.

Kaylore
02-02-2011, 11:20 AM
The OP makes a case for needing a dominant DT and how that can help a defense. No case is actually made for Fairley or Darius, though. I mean I agree that Kris Jenkins helped the Panthers. I agree a dominant DT can help the Broncos. But it's not a foregone conclusion that Darius or Fairley are going to be elite just because they are high. I was hoping for more analysis there.

If there's anything I can take from this, it's i'm grateful that we can potentially find a dominant DT in the later rounds.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-02-2011, 11:20 AM
I would climax tbqh. First draft day party ever that I don't have a meltdown.

I think Peterson + paea would be a good step forward as well. I think it's somewhat funny how people seem to assume we have only one pick in the draft, and it's at #2, and after that's gone we don't get any other chances to fix our defense.

Drek
02-02-2011, 11:21 AM
If we're going with a 4-3 and a cover two, isn't the smartest pick Bowers?

Why? So he can rotate with Doom and Ayers while our DTs are Bannan (middle of the road type) and a bunch of scrubs?

The biggest need regardless of our defensive front is 300+ pound guys who can dictate to the opposing OL.

Not DEs, not DTs, not NTs, nothing like that. We need big, strong space eaters who win the battle at the LOS and let everyone else do their jobs. 4-3 and 3-4 are irrelevant when we can't control the middle of the football field and lose ground at the LOS every snap.

If somehow we could trade back, flip Orton (assuming there's a CBA), etc. and walk away with Peterson and a couple guys who meet the above criteria then sign me up. But its a long shot.

Now from a realistic standpoint this right here:

If you take Dareus in the first then Paea or Taylor in the early second and get mlb Jones you don't think the defense would be on its way to being fixed

is a FANTASTIC draft for us that could actually happen.

I'd rather go into the 2012 draft saying "we need a ton of help at corner" than saying "we STILL need a DL worth a ****".

Dareus plus Paea or Taylor with Bannan as the veteran in rotation will resolve a lot of DL issues in either a 3-4 or 4-3 front. It'd go particularly well in a hybrid setup if you ask me. Put a savvy MLB who can gradually take over the calls so DJ can just athlete it up as a WOLB/WILB depending on front and we're a whole lot better defense overnight.

If there is anything our new DC has proven in New Orleans its that he knows how to run a turnover producing secondary. Thats without a guy on par with Champ (and no, Darren Sharper at his best wasn't as good as Champ will be two years from now). His job is to make something special happen with scheming in the secondary while we start winning battles up front thanks to real talent.

schaaf
02-02-2011, 11:33 AM
I think Peterson + paea would be a good step forward as well. I think it's somewhat funny how people seem to assume we have only one pick in the draft, and it's at #2, and after that's gone we don't get any other chances to fix our defense.

This.

If we take Peterson, that does not mean we are once again forgetting our troubles at D-Line. It just means that we see Peterson as a gamechanger and want him on our team. If they take Peterson then expect the team to make a big splash in Free Agency and in the second round of the draft.

Even if we take Peterson, you will be able to look back and see that the main direction of the offseason was to rebuild the Defensive Line.

footstepsfrom#27
02-02-2011, 11:48 AM
Not at all dismissing your point but to be fair on the players I bolded above, and depending on how you define "bust", it may be worth pointing out that Robertson and Brown had their careers derailed by injury and Warren started for the Pats most of this year. Brown in particular probably would have had a great career were it not for injury.
I agreed with your point, but the injury aspect is one more thing to consider anytime you've evaluating these guys. When you take a guy in the top 5, you can't afford ANY problems...none. That's why it's so critical to get it right and why the character and medical issues are so important. When a guy drafted in the top 5 merely turns into a sometime starter like Warren or flames out in a couple years like Roberson, that guy has to be labeled a bust because of where he was drafted. No matter the reason, if your top 5 pick can't become at the very least a consistent starter with pro bowl level production throughout a career, you're not getting value. Of the players considered worthy of the #2 pick, Fairley is the one guy I'm most cautious of.

Bigdawg26
02-02-2011, 12:04 PM
This.

If we take Peterson, that does not mean we are once again forgetting our troubles at D-Line. It just means that we see Peterson as a gamechanger and want him on our team. If they take Peterson then expect the team to make a big splash in Free Agency and in the second round of the draft.

Even if we take Peterson, you will be able to look back and see that the main direction of the offseason was to rebuild the Defensive Line.

Agreed! I say let's take the best defensive prospect availble with the second overall pick. I would say either Peterson or Von Miller becuase both of them are freakish athletes as well as consistent game changing players throughout college. We can still pick up need picks in the early second round which are pretty much first round picks as it is with Taylor and/or Greg Jones. Our BIGGEST problem on defense is that we don't have much talent and game changing players, but stop gap and mid level free agents. Our first pick should be a sure thing not a one year wonder like bowers or fairley.

footstepsfrom#27
02-02-2011, 12:45 PM
you have a valid point however, you cannot predict future success of a player based on past results. There really is no "safe" area to draft specific players, you take a chance and hope they have the talent/desire to be an impact.
Money is the lesser issue IMO when you're looking at a rookie cap coming soon, but since we haven't been this high in the draft since the merger, the issue of "potential" failure becomes far more concerning than say taking a guy in the 4rh round or something. At the top of the draft that's the one place you really have to get it right.

Ray Finkle
02-02-2011, 12:47 PM
Money is the lesser issue IMO when you're looking at a rookie cap coming soon, but since we haven't been this high in the draft since the merger, the issue of "potential" failure becomes far more concerning than say taking a guy in the 4rh round or something. At the top of the draft that's the one place you really have to get it right.

true but I don't think CB is a safer choice then DL. I think you can go DL, DL, LB/DS with the first three picks and come away better then CB, DL, DE/LB.

footstepsfrom#27
02-02-2011, 01:05 PM
Why? So he can rotate with Doom and Ayers while our DTs are Bannan (middle of the road type) and a bunch of scrubs?

The biggest need regardless of our defensive front is 300+ pound guys who can dictate to the opposing OL.

Not DEs, not DTs, not NTs, nothing like that. We need big, strong space eaters who win the battle at the LOS and let everyone else do their jobs. 4-3 and 3-4 are irrelevant when we can't control the middle of the football field and lose ground at the LOS every snap.

If somehow we could trade back, flip Orton (assuming there's a CBA), etc. and walk away with Peterson and a couple guys who meet the above criteria then sign me up. But its a long shot.

Now from a realistic standpoint this right here:

is a FANTASTIC draft for us that could actually happen.
Not only is it not a long shot, it's as likely to happen as not IMO. We have two #2's, and despite Elway's comments today, I fully expect to see Orton gone and another #2 coming our way, a 3rd at worst. Even if we don't pick up another 2nd, we can easily trade the 3rd plus a 2nd and move up into the first round, higher yet if we trade both #2's...that would mean a legit shot at Paea probably. Or we might snag Taylor in the 2nd. I fully expect to come out of this draft with at least two top notch prospects in the D-line whether one is taken #2 or not. Here's what I'd do:

#2- Peterson
#36- Taylor (based on him continuing to impress at the combine) or perhaps Marvin Austin, who has 1st round talent but the issue of his relationship with an agent could drop him into the 2nd....either would be a nice upgrade.
#46 plus the 3rd- traded to move up into the late 1st for a DE like Heyward, etc...

That would be three starters added to the defense, two in the line. We'd instantly have the best pair of man coverage CB's in the game, which will improve the pass rush all by itself despite what Mediator would have you believe, an option to move Champ to the FS spot in a couple years which will prolong his career, a much stouter interior run defense and a legit DE who could start in front of Elvis or Ayers. We'd also solve our special teams field position issues with Peterson. Mix in Elvis returning and all the sudden this defense doesn't look so bad anymore. And we're not fixing this in one year anyway...but that would make a great start.

DarkHorse
02-02-2011, 01:08 PM
I think you've also missed the fact that there isn't a single person on the OM arguing that the DL doesn't need to be addressed in the first two rounds.

This.


If you say take Peterson at #2 apparently it's automatic that by saying that you don't want to take DL in this draft at all.

Dedhed
02-02-2011, 01:11 PM
If you take Dareus in the first then Paea or Taylor in the early second and get mlb Jones you don't think the defense would be on its way to being fixed
Of course.

But I think we would be equally far on our way with more upside if we grabbed Peterson, Martez Wilson, Raheem Moore, and Drake Nevis.

footstepsfrom#27
02-02-2011, 01:22 PM
true but I don't think CB is a safer choice then DL. I think you can go DL, DL, LB/DS with the first three picks and come away better then CB, DL, DE/LB.
Forget the position and look at the player. Peterson is the safest pick in this draft. He's huge, he's blazing fast with elite quickness and reactions, he's a head hunter who intimidates receivers like a Ronnie Lott type guy, and he's an elite return man at both the KO and PR positions. He's a completely unique physical talent and if he puts on weight this year like he has the last three years, he'll likely play at 230 pounds in the NFL. Keep in mind he's a junior and has yet to see an NFL weight room. If I have a shot at a guy that big, fast and talented who fills multiple holes...I grab him and don't look back unless Reggie White or Bruce Smith is available. I don't know if any of the top D-line guys are anywhere near Reggie White in ability, but I believe Peterson has more sheer physical talent than Champ Bailey...obviously he has to prove it at the next level but that's true of every player in the draft for every year. In fact that's basically what he is probably going to be...a 230 pound Champ Bailey who can break kickoff and punt returns the distance any time he touches it.

footstepsfrom#27
02-02-2011, 01:30 PM
The OP makes a case for needing a dominant DT and how that can help a defense. No case is actually made for Fairley or Darius, though. I mean I agree that Kris Jenkins helped the Panthers. I agree a dominant DT can help the Broncos. But it's not a foregone conclusion that Darius or Fairley are going to be elite just because they are high. I was hoping for more analysis there.If there's anything I can take from this, it's i'm grateful that we can potentially find a dominant DT in the later rounds.
I was misled by the thread title, which promised me a "case" would be made. Now I'll now post half a dozen shots at the OP for this unforgiveable sin since I had to actualy read his post. :angel:

Beantown Bronco
02-02-2011, 01:59 PM
We'd also solve our special teams field position issues with Peterson.

he's an elite return man at both the KO and PR positions.

Let's remove this part of the argument from the equation right now. Every year this team drafts one of the top returners in the college game and pretty much every year it makes zero difference in our starting field position. Why? A few reasons.

1. 8 games at Mile High. This means that pretty much every kickoff and punt his way will be either a touchback or fair catch. He'll be neutralized, just like every other "star college returner" has been for us.

2. Field position is influenced FAR more by (a) the number of turnovers our defense forces and (b) the number of three and outs our defense forces, than anything a returner does in the return game. Therefore, his addition will arguably do nothing for us there.

3. If we have him starting at CB, I seriously doubt they'd use him on every kickoff and punt return situation anyway. I personally have no problem putting starters in that position (I say "put the best guy back there....starter or not"), but most NFL coaches don't seem to agree.

Bigdawg26
02-02-2011, 03:07 PM
Yeah peterson reminds me size,speed, and skill wise of Sean Taylor if he played corner except not as hard of a hitter but better coverage skill. We have to pick up him or Von Miller in the first and we can always pick up a solid DT and DE in the second. I would go Peterson, Taylor in the second, Jones or Sheppard (from LSU) in the next second, and when we trade Orton for a second or third we can pick up either a Safety or another DT like Austin. That would give us another playmaker at CB with Cox and move Champ to safety giving us a ball hawking safety. A tackling machine MLB in Jones or Sheppard, and two DT tackles one to start with bannan and one to rotate in.

TheReverend
02-02-2011, 03:30 PM
and no, Darren Sharper at his best wasn't as good as Champ will be two years from now

Wtf Hilarious!

Ray Finkle
02-02-2011, 04:18 PM
Forget the position and look at the player. Peterson is the safest pick in this draft. He's huge, he's blazing fast with elite quickness and reactions, he's a head hunter who intimidates receivers like a Ronnie Lott type guy, and he's an elite return man at both the KO and PR positions. He's a completely unique physical talent and if he puts on weight this year like he has the last three years, he'll likely play at 230 pounds in the NFL. Keep in mind he's a junior and has yet to see an NFL weight room. If I have a shot at a guy that big, fast and talented who fills multiple holes...I grab him and don't look back unless Reggie White or Bruce Smith is available. I don't know if any of the top D-line guys are anywhere near Reggie White in ability, but I believe Peterson has more sheer physical talent than Champ Bailey...obviously he has to prove it at the next level but that's true of every player in the draft for every year. In fact that's basically what he is probably going to be...a 230 pound Champ Bailey who can break kickoff and punt returns the distance any time he touches it.

no such thing....That has been said about many players and very rarely does it ring true. Safe Pick = won't be a superstar but won't be Willie Middlebrooks either.

theStifmeister
02-02-2011, 04:46 PM
Do you draft what you need or best player. at #2 you pick the best player available, get back to basics. I want fairley, peterson, von miller. Thats what my big board would look like.

broncogary
02-02-2011, 04:48 PM
So are you using that in support of taking a DL at #2 then?

And what's your answer to every other great individual player on a bad unit? Are all those positions non-impact positions as well. You're missing the forest for the trees by only addressing Mario.

Nope, I'm saying the Texans defense wasn't bad in spite of Mario Williams. He was a big part of the bad. He just gets over-hyped a lot. I think Houston would trade him for Doom in a NY minute.

uplink
02-02-2011, 05:15 PM
I think Fairley and Darius are sure bet starting DL in the NFL. Worth a high pick to a least get a starter. Peterson has more bust potential, but has more superstar potential IMO. So it is a gamble.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-02-2011, 05:29 PM
I think Fairley and Darius are sure bet starting DL in the NFL. Worth a high pick to a least get a starter. Peterson has more bust potential, but has more superstar potential IMO. So it is a gamble.

I don't see how Peterson has more bust potential. I've never even heard that idea argued. I'm curious what your facts are behind this assertion.

cutthemdown
02-02-2011, 06:07 PM
I just can't see doom playing OLB in a 4-3 on the weakside. I mean maybe but I doubt it. Seems like drafting Failery or Dareus makes more sense. Stick them next to bannan, put ayers and doom on the ends, then look for a nice big mauling MLB next yr.

cutthemdown
02-02-2011, 06:08 PM
Peterson is great returning punts consistently. Also returning picks etc. That to me is one of the surest signs this kid a great football player. WOnt be upset with that pick especially if Champ wanted to play FS. Then we need another CB also but who cares if peterson a stud take him.

Dedhed
02-02-2011, 06:12 PM
Nope, I'm saying the Texans defense wasn't bad in spite of Mario Williams. He was a big part of the bad. He just gets over-hyped a lot. I think Houston would trade him for Doom in a NY minute.

So no comment on the actual point being made, then?

broncogary
02-02-2011, 07:09 PM
So no comment on the actual point being made, then?

We need to go D-Line unless Peterson is far and away the BPA and we can't trade down. Every year we plan to fix the DL and don't. I'm tired of that song.

Dedhed
02-03-2011, 05:51 AM
We need to go D-Line unless Peterson is far and away the BPA and we can't trade down. Every year we plan to fix the DL and don't. I'm tired of that song.

So still no comment on the actual point being made?

broncogary
02-03-2011, 06:44 AM
So still no comment on the actual point being made?

What was the actual point?

Dedhed
02-03-2011, 06:56 AM
What was the actual point?
That it's ridiculous to say that because we were a bad defense with a great CB, the position has no value.

illbroncsfn
02-03-2011, 07:47 AM
Trade Down to get Vonn Miller- best playmaker in draft IMHO. Take extra pick and hit Dline hard w/all 2nd round picks- our package picks to get 2 impact D-Lineman in late 1st early/mid 2nd....

TheReverend
02-03-2011, 08:03 AM
That it's ridiculous to say that because we were a bad defense with a great CB, the position has no value.

^

Suh had maybe the biggest impact I've ever seen a rookie defensive player make and immediately became the NFL's best DL, imo. Denver would have to be INSANELY lucky for Fairley or Dareus to have even a remotely similar amount of production.

Detroit's defense was still by definition "bad", finishing in the bottom half in every major category. The point is, it takes more than one man at one spot. We need to take the best PLAYERS we can get and start dictating how opposing offenses have to game plan us instead of vice versa.

Imo, that means Peterson, Paea and Jones up front, and system guys at the back end.

broncogary
02-03-2011, 08:08 AM
That it's ridiculous to say that because we were a bad defense with a great CB, the position has no value.

No doubt it has value. That's why I said Peterson would have to be far and away the BPA. But just for a change of pace, I'd like to have a physical front seven.

TheChamp24
02-03-2011, 01:09 PM
To the people who want us to take Von Miller, WHERE WILL HE PLAY?
He's a 4-3 weakside OLB who relies on speed.

PRBronco
02-03-2011, 01:29 PM
To the people who want us to take Von Miller, WHERE WILL HE PLAY?
He's a 4-3 weakside OLB who relies on speed.

Yeah exactly, passing over D linemen for an athletic linebacker gives me DJ over Wilfork flashbacks.

illbroncsfn
02-03-2011, 01:39 PM
To the people who want us to take Von Miller, WHERE WILL HE PLAY?
He's a 4-3 weakside OLB who relies on speed.

I believe he is scheme versatile in either a 3-4 or 4-3. 3-4 OLB and 4-3 WLB. I do know that it would be very beneficial for the CBA to be rectified prior to the draft so we could get the necessary FA's to improve our defense as this would help clarify the direction of the draft.

When I see Von Miller I see Clay Matthews Jr. and I want that on my football team. I for one hope we stick to the 3-4

TheReverend
02-03-2011, 01:45 PM
Von Miller might make me bug the **** out

Chris
02-03-2011, 02:08 PM
Von Miller might make me bug the **** out

How so

Bigdawg26
02-03-2011, 02:16 PM
Von Miller can play the exact position that Brain Orakpo(his rookie year) did in the 4-3. I'm pretty sure the were SLB.

TheReverend
02-03-2011, 02:17 PM
How so

237 pounds (Ill be stunned if hes over 235 at the combine, despite the senior bowl being fairly accurate)

Would be cute to pair with Elvis on pass rush downs, but he's not big enough to be a linebacker let alone a DL. He's an undersized LB/DL hybrid that, quite frankly, is only SLIGHTLY bigger than Patrick Peterson and less athletic.

TheReverend
02-03-2011, 02:18 PM
Von Miller can play the exact position that Brain Orakpo(his rookie year) did in the 4-3. I'm pretty sure the were SLB.

20 lbs smaller.

NFLBRONCO
02-03-2011, 02:31 PM
With no FA or trade players for picks without cba how different is your draft approach?

SonOfLe-loLang
02-03-2011, 03:28 PM
20 lbs smaller.

After watching Miller play, i just cant see how he wont find success in the NFL. He's instinctual, very quick to the ball, and despite his small stature, has great pass rushing moves and, at least in the senior bowl practices, apparently was very successful against good talent. Perhaps his ceiling isnt as high as a fairley, bowers, peterson, but he seems like a pretty sure thing to be a good player.

Rohirrim
02-03-2011, 03:41 PM
Man, I just hope we don't take a CB that high. ;D

uplink
02-03-2011, 03:54 PM
I don't see how Peterson has more bust potential. I've never even heard that idea argued. I'm curious what your facts are behind this assertion.

No facts just my opinion from watching the NFL for over 30 years as a fan. That is why I used the words 'I think'. Peterson has a better chance of being a blue chip player. Maybe he ends up playing safety.

jutang
02-03-2011, 04:13 PM
Dewayne Roberson 4th 2003 (Bust)
Julius Peppers 2nd 2002 (Star)
Gerard Warren 3rd 2001 (Bust)
Justin Smith 4th 2001 (Starter)
Courtney Brown 1st 2000 (Bust)



So anyone who has ever played for the Broncos D-line pretty much means they are screwed for the rest of their career. :thumbs:

jutang
02-03-2011, 04:18 PM
I would be fine if the Broncos picked Peterson and then used the rest of their draft on the D front 7. With Champ and Peterson, the Broncos should just punt rush the QB like they did in '07. It would be entertaining regardless if the Broncos give up some long pass plays.

PRBronco
02-03-2011, 04:22 PM
I would be fine if the Broncos picked Peterson and then used the rest of their draft on the D front 7. With Champ and Peterson, the Broncos should just punt rush the QB like they did in '07. It would be crushing because the Broncos would allow 300 yards per game on the ground.

:(

oubronco
02-03-2011, 04:33 PM
Man, I just hope we don't take a CB that high. ;D

Me too we've played with a subpar D-line for far too long it's time to fix the problem

Play2win
02-03-2011, 07:26 PM
Me too we've played with a subpar D-line for far too long it's time to fix the problem

And we are in a prime position to correct that. One top-level (or near top-level) player on the Dline can really change an entire defense.

I'm still all-in for Dareus-- trade down or NOT. The Big Dude would change the whole complexion of our defense, could really be the beginning of something great.

strafen
02-03-2011, 08:12 PM
Man, I just hope we don't take a CB that high. ;D

That's the million-dollar question.
Do we go for the BPA or do we go with a set plan?

Could Patrick Peterson be the BPA at the #2 spot?
Most draft mocks have him going to Denver...

NFLBRONCO
02-04-2011, 07:18 AM
I'll make a point for Peterson nobody brought up so far. Who sealed our only playoff win since John retired a stud CB. Yes I want a better DL too just sayin though.

Ray Finkle
02-04-2011, 07:31 AM
I'll make a point for Peterson nobody brought up so far. Who sealed our only playoff win since John retired a stud CB. Yes I want a better DL too just sayin though.

or it could be Saurbraun's forced fumble.....

broncogary
02-04-2011, 07:34 AM
or it could be Saurbraun's forced fumble.....

So you're saying we should draft an alcoholic punter in the first round? What would Al Davis do? LOL

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-04-2011, 07:40 AM
Post is saying that it's highly unlikely that Champ comes back. If that's the case, Peterson's gotta be the pick, right?

Ray Finkle
02-04-2011, 07:54 AM
So you're saying we should draft an alcoholic punter in the first round? What would Al Davis do? LOL

of course...how could you go wrong with that?

What I meant was Alky Punter's play was just as big as Champs....

boppool
02-04-2011, 08:13 AM
You could argue that, but not very well. Peterson is considered by scouts to be the best CB prospect in a decade, and since true shutdown corners are much harder to find than impact recievers, the clear choice is Peterson over Green. On top of that, his physical meausrables are off the chart. In the history of the NFL, there's never been guy his size playing this position. Mix in his value as a both a kickoff and punt return stud and it's clear he's the most versitile and probably the most talented player in the draft. We obviously have zero need for a receiver at the moment so it's a non issue.

Below is a list of the 12 defensive linemen drafted in the top 5 picks overall since 2000. Four are busts, three are stars, three are starters but not stars, and two the jury is still out on.

Ndamukong Su 2nd 2010 (Star)
Mike McCoy 3rd 2010 (IR)
Tyson Jackson 3rd 2009 (jury still out)
Chris Long 2nd 2008 (Starter)
Glen Dorsey 5th 2008 (Starter)
Gaines Adams 4th 2007 (Bust)
Mario Williams 2nd 2006 (Star)
Dewayne Roberson 4th 2003 (Bust)
Julius Peppers 2nd 2002 (Star)
Gerard Warren 3rd 2001 (Bust)
Justin Smith 4th 2001 (Starter)
Courtney Brown 1st 2000 (Bust)

One could probably find similar results at other positions. The point is, whoever you draft in the top five, you can't depend on that player as the key to your draft. The successful teams who build through the draft hit on players throughout the entire draft, which is how we need to draft our new defensive line. We have the ammo in what is a very deep draft for defensive linemen to rebuild the line in one year AND still take the best defensive talent in the draft in Peterson. You're generally better off drafting the best player this high unless it's at a position you have absolutely no need for.

Holy crap! I didn't know Mike McCoy was that young? LOL
I know you meant Gerald McCoy... Just messin' wit ya.

PRBronco
02-04-2011, 08:18 AM
Post is saying that it's highly unlikely that Champ comes back. If that's the case, Peterson's gotta be the pick, right?

Meh, I'd believe some random guy on the Mane claiming he knows someone in Dove Valley before I believe the Post these days.

broncogary
02-04-2011, 08:21 AM
Post is saying that it's highly unlikely that Champ comes back. If that's the case, Peterson's gotta be the pick, right?

So our defense can be just as good as last year? Hilarious!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-04-2011, 08:26 AM
Meh, I'd believe some random guy on the Mane claiming he knows someone in Dove Valley before I believe the Post these days.

So would I, but **** man, they've got every angle covered. Paige says Champ returns, Legs says he won't. Unless Champ is going to leave the league altogether, I don't see a third option.

NFLBRONCO
02-04-2011, 08:47 AM
They also said, Dennison was going to be the new HC but, wasn't. I think Champ situation is 50/50 on staying vs moving on.

Shoemaker
02-04-2011, 09:23 AM
I just have a hard time imagining that Fox and Elway's first big move in their new positions would be letting one of the best and most popular players on the team leave.

Considering how a portion of Broncos fans never gave McDaniels a chance after "he" traded Cutler, you would think they'd do everything in their power to resign Champ and avoid starting off on the wrong foot with the fanbase.

Dedhed
02-04-2011, 10:57 AM
And we are in a prime position to correct that. One top-level (or near top-level) player on the Dline can really change an entire defense.
Yeah, with guys like Drake Nevis, Phil Taylor and Stephen Paea possibly available in the 2nd round, it's a great year to build the DL.

Rohirrim
02-04-2011, 11:14 AM
Yeah, with guys like Drake Nevis, Phil Taylor and Stephen Paea possibly available in the 2nd round, it's a great year to build the DL.

True. Fairley and Taylor, added to Ayers and Doom, would be a pretty good combo.

Dedhed
02-04-2011, 11:27 AM
True. Fairley and Taylor, added to Ayers and Doom, would be a pretty good combo.

I imagine from your adopt-a-bronco that you're probably comfortable with Goodman and Syd as our starting CBs.

Rohirrim
02-04-2011, 11:44 AM
I imagine from your adopt-a-bronco that you're probably comfortable with Goodman and Syd as our starting CBs.

I don't see anything that leads me to believe that Champ is going anywhere, other than rumors. If we go to a 4-3 and a cover two (which is what some other rumors are saying) then the Dline becomes far more crucial to success than the CB position. I think a line of Ayers, Fairley, Taylor and Doom makes the secondary a whole lot better real quick.

I have high hopes for the Sqwyd. ;D

Dedhed
02-04-2011, 12:00 PM
I don't see anything that leads me to believe that Champ is going anywhere, other than rumors. If we go to a 4-3 and a cover two (which is what some other rumors are saying) then the Dline becomes far more crucial to success than the CB position. I think a line of Ayers, Fairley, Taylor and Doom makes the secondary a whole lot better real quick.

I have high hopes for the Sqwyd. ;DYou're operating under a lot of assumptions there.

With the number of holes on this defense, trying to start draft and start two rookie DL is redundant.

I don't get why with the number of holes to fill there are so many people against the BPA draft model.

oubronco
02-04-2011, 12:43 PM
True. Fairley and Taylor, added to Ayers and Doom, would be a pretty good combo.

Or Dareus and Paea then add a mlb look at what you got compared to last year :approve: