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HEAV
01-30-2011, 01:20 PM
Barry Jackson of the Miami Herald reports that there have been questions around the league about why the Dolphins moved Karl Dorrell from receivers coach to quarterbacks coach, a position he has never held at any level. But one clue as to why the Dolphins took Dorrell off the receivers coach job comes from an unnamed Dolphins staffer who told Jackson that handling Marshall was difficult at times for Dorrell.



http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/30/dolphins-coaches-found-brandon-marshall-difficult/


From the no S%%t category!

Archer81
01-30-2011, 01:32 PM
We wont move forward as a fanbase until we get over these "stars". New beginnings.


:Broncos:

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-30-2011, 01:33 PM
Old news is old.

80smith
01-30-2011, 01:42 PM
So this is why I could not sell my Brandon cards on ebay?!!

NhocCuteGirlz
01-30-2011, 01:42 PM
We wont move forward as a fanbase until we get over these "stars". New beginnings.





images/smilies/broncologo.gif
__________________

baja
01-30-2011, 01:46 PM
We wont move forward as a fanbase until we get over these "stars". New beginnings.


:Broncos:

A positive season next year and it will be finished but for this off season how the infamous trio faired this season will be discussed a fair bit.

Broncos4me
01-30-2011, 01:50 PM
kind of a sketchy article, sounds gossipy, but I thought this post underneath it was funny.

JSpicoli says: <SMALL>Jan 30, 2011 3:12 PM </SMALL>
Brandon Marshall “Difficult”.
From the same source that brought you “The Titanic took on a bit of water”

(also good to see Sean Penn's Jeff Spicoli is alive and posting) ;D

schaaf
01-30-2011, 01:51 PM
From the no S%%t category!

Best part of the thread haha

Tombstone RJ
01-30-2011, 09:31 PM
love reading all the posts below he article... just like another day at the Omane...

cutthemdown
01-30-2011, 09:53 PM
cracks me up how people say talking about former players is some sign we can't move on. It's par for the course. Fans of teams have been fixated on former player coming back to play the team, how they do, if they screw up like they did in previous town etc etc. Hell I'm still pissed we traded Willie Brown to the ****ing Raiders.

You can look forward and back at the same time when you are the fan of a team. It's stuff like this that makes it fun.

ZONA
01-30-2011, 09:54 PM
http://members.cox.net/azhelton2/bmarshall.jpg

cutthemdown
01-30-2011, 10:00 PM
http://members.cox.net/azhelton2/bmarshall.jpg

it's all 3 which is why we argue. There will never be a consensus on the mane. To bag on a thread like it doesn't meet the Manes threshold for being a pertinent is funny. The Marshall trade very new. We get a pick in 2nd round for him right? It's a relevant post to mention Dolphins having trouble for the same reason we did. Marshall is a smart ass stubborn immature player.

With that 2nd round pick I hope we can get Kyle Rudolph or maybe the safety from UCLA Raheem Moore I think it is, man that kid can play.

If we got him that would lesson losing out of the good safety in Sea we lost because of A smith trade.

ZONA
01-30-2011, 10:03 PM
it's all 3 which is why we argue. There will never be a consensus on the mane. To bag on a thread like it doesn't meet the Manes threshold for being a pertinent is funny. The Marshall trade very new. We get a pick in 2nd round for him right? It's a relevant post to mention Dolphins having trouble for the same reason we did. Marshall is a smart ass stubborn immature player.

With that 2nd round pick I hope we can get Kyle Rudolph or maybe the safety from UCLA Raheem Moore I think it is, man that kid can play.

If we got him that would lesson losing out of the good safety in Sea we lost because of A smith trade.

Cmon. You can't pick all 3 answers. Man up and pick one. Hilarious!

cutthemdown
01-30-2011, 10:08 PM
Cmon. You can't pick all 3 answers. Man up and pick one. Hilarious!

Ok i pick A lol. But I could argue c pretty easily.

strafen
01-30-2011, 10:45 PM
Mcdaniels was right!!! :giggle:

baja
01-30-2011, 10:49 PM
Mcdaniels was right!!! :giggle:

He was right about a lot of things and he left us with better personal that he inhered

ShutDownPoster
01-31-2011, 03:22 AM
Is it because BM demanded that the facilities be cleared of all food wrappers before he could enter?

strafen
01-31-2011, 06:32 AM
He was right about a lot of things and he left us with better personal that he inhered

4-12

baja
01-31-2011, 06:32 AM
4-12

"Red Light"

jhns
01-31-2011, 07:30 AM
"Red Light"

The first time this team has ever picked in the top 2 of the NFL draft. "We are better than that .500 team!"

You are full of fail baja.

baja
01-31-2011, 07:46 AM
The first time this team has ever picked in the top 2 of the NFL draft. "We are better than that .500 team!"

You are full of fail baja.

and the won lost record has what to do with the statement we have better personal now than before McD took over exactly?

Do you understand what the rebuilding process entails? Do you know that in a rebuild the won/ lost record gets worse before it gets better? Do you think just because you bring in a new HC that all of a sudden you start winning games? You are in for more disappointment than.

DrFate
01-31-2011, 07:51 AM
and the won lost record has what to do with the statement we have better personal now than before McD took over exactly?


You are what your record says you are. There is no quantifiable way to demonstrate that a 4-12 is 'better' than an 8-8 team. It's simply hand waving on your part.

You can hold the opinion they are better looking, better singers, better dancers, etc. But 4-12 is 4-12.

My friend (a Dallas fan) went on and on about how much better Dallas was than Washington. Both teams were 6-10. Everything else is hand waving.

baja
01-31-2011, 07:55 AM
You are what your record says you are. There is no quantifiable way to demonstrate that a 4-12 is 'better' than an 8-8 team. It's simply hand waving on your part.

You can hold the opinion they are better looking, better singers, better dancers, etc. But 4-12 is 4-12.

My friend (a Dallas fan) went on and on about how much better Dallas was than Washington. Both teams were 6-10. Everything else is hand waving.

Looking to the future it's good to know we have at least improved our talent level to build on. That is my point.

DrFate
01-31-2011, 07:59 AM
Looking to the future it's good to know we have at least improved our talent level to build on.

I understand what your point is. I simply disagree with it.

The general consensus is that moving Cutler/Marshall/Hillis/Scheffler (and often throwing the resulting picks away) resulted in a DOWNGRADE in the teams talent. (to say nothing of the degradation from players like Harris, Royal, and Clady). These guys that are gone each had their own issues (some full blown head cases). But 'lack of talent' is not generally considered one of them.

I don't see how anyone can objectively conclude that a 4-12 team is 'more talented' than an 8-8. It is your opinion and you are welcome to it - but the facts do not support it.

Cool Breeze
01-31-2011, 08:01 AM
I suspect the new wide receivers coach will find Marshall to be difficult too. Miami should be in the market for a new QB.

jhns
01-31-2011, 08:40 AM
and the won lost record has what to do with the statement we have better personal now than before McD took over exactly?

Do you understand what the rebuilding process entails? Do you know that in a rebuild the won/ lost record gets worse before it gets better? Do you think just because you bring in a new HC that all of a sudden you start winning games? You are in for more disappointment than.

Ummm, this team has been in the NFL for a long time. This team has rebuilt many times. This team has never picked in the top 2 of the NFL draft until now. I don't think your logic makes any sense.

The 2008 team was younger than this team. The 2008 team won twice as many games as this team. There is zero evidence to support what you are claiming. There is a lot of evidence to support what I am claiming.

Again, you are full of fail.

Inkana7
01-31-2011, 09:02 AM
I, too, miss Marquand Manual and Marlon McCree.

Riley
01-31-2011, 09:02 AM
I suspect the new wide receivers coach will find Marshall to be difficult too. Miami should be in the market for a new QB.

Orton and Marshall are old buddies....
once the CBA is done they may get to go out drinking together again.


McD gutted this team.
He alienated players that would have been fine....
he drafted like an amatuer (Moreno instead of Orakpo, Alph Smith, etc)
and his play calling was horrid. He alientated his D C ( Nolan)...
and tried to run the entire circus without any help.

Instead of a ringmaster... he was a clown.

One thing he did well last season... was his draft day trading.
Dang, that guy stockpiled picks last year, didn't he?
For good or bad...
some of those picks became Thomas, Decker, Beadles, Walton and Tebow.

Add in Gaffny, Lloyd, Clady and Royal...
Now... we do have the makings of a decent offense to move forward with.
(We need a good TE, and a late round RB, in case nobody noticed)

And still... the defense MUST be rebuilt.

No free agancy until the CBA... the draft before anything else...
Fox will have to make do with a lot of the talent we have.

They say it is a privilige to live in interesting times.

strafen
01-31-2011, 09:02 AM
Looking to the future it's good to know we have at least improved our talent level to build on. That is my point.
Improved our talent level?
How can a team with better talent do worse than a less-talented team?
That doesn't make sense.
We didn't need to build upon anything other than the defense.
In two years under McDaniels and prior, the defense was the part of the team that needed to be built and still does need to be built.
The first thing McDaniels did here was to dismantle the offense and ignore the defense.
This team is worse not only defensivley but offensively than it was 2 years ago...
Moreno, Gaffney, Lloyd, Buckhalter, Orton, Maroney, Richard Quinn and the other scurb TE's McDaniels brought in, will all be gone a year from now...

The only thing Mcdaniels did good was drafting Tebow, which as stupid as the guy is, he went against the grain with that pick, but to his luck it may turn out to be the only thing he did right, eventhough he tried to make it a bad one.

strafen
01-31-2011, 09:05 AM
I, too, miss Marquand Manual and Marlon McCree.
Not to mention Mcdaniels, huh?

jhns
01-31-2011, 09:13 AM
I, too, miss Marquand Manual and Marlon McCree.

The 2008 defense has Slowik running it. The 2008 defense saw ten times the number of injuries as this past years defense. The 2008 defense gave up less yards and points than this past years defense.

And you come with this response. Funny stuff.

jhns
01-31-2011, 09:18 AM
Older and worse = better.

Do people really still wonder why I laugh at McDaniels fans so much?

Austin Bronco Fan
01-31-2011, 09:21 AM
I understand what your point is. I simply disagree with it.

The general consensus is that moving Cutler/Marshall/Hillis/Scheffler (and often throwing the resulting picks away) resulted in a DOWNGRADE in the teams talent. (to say nothing of the degradation from players like Harris, Royal, and Clady). These guys that are gone each had their own issues (some full blown head cases). But 'lack of talent' is not generally considered one of them.

I don't see how anyone can objectively conclude that a 4-12 team is 'more talented' than an 8-8. It is your opinion and you are welcome to it - but the facts do not support it.

Here's my take on these four:

Cutler: Has talent, but does he have the ability to be consistent? Does he have it in him to carry a team? I'm not convinced he does. (But this is another debate). Tebow has already shown the ability to raise the game of players around him. He looks like he has intangibles in place to be very good. Meanwhile, we got a QB who was consistent, and didn't make many mistakes in Orton until Tebow developed. 'Course Orton can't carry a team either. Tebow might be able to though. In the end, we might be better off. Verdict: Jury is still out.

Marshall: I really see another Terrell Owens or Randy Moss developing here. Notice once those two became prima donnas they ceased to be consisent from season to season. Marshall is following that same path. Will he also play with the same inconsistency? I bet he does. Meanwhile, Lloyd took over quite well, and we have young talent in the pipeline. Verdict: I'd say we're better off in the long run.

Hillis: Here's a case where two coaching staffs failed to see how much potential he had. Hindsight is always 20/20 though. Was it REALLY possible to know back in 2008 or 2009 that he could have that much impact in 2010? Would he have gotten the chance to develop had we kept him? I think this is a case where Denver just didn't have a plan to utilize him well. He's better off in Cleveland (although we should have been smarter here). Verdict: Broncos dropped the ball in evaluating Hillis' potental.

Scheffler: Okay. This one I don't get. He can't block to save his life. He can catch passes, but really, he's not an elite TE. Yet there are those who are convinced we let a BIG talent go here. I don't see we lost much in letting him go. He's dime-a-dozen talent as a receiver who couldn't even become a regular starter in Detroit. He's worthless in run blocking. I imagine if we actually throw the ball to our TE's this season, we will forget ol' Tony. Verdict: We're not missing anything here.

The main problem with Denver going 4-12 wasn't the decrease of talent on offense. It was lack of a defense that really hurt us, pared with a lack of a running game. The power blocking scheme was poorly equipped. Hillis could have helped, but probably not enough to win more than a few more games. I still doubt we break 0.500. I think in the end we have personnel who will be more reliable and consistent from season to season. So overall, I think we'll be better off.

vancejohnson82
01-31-2011, 09:23 AM
The 2008 defense has Slowik running it. The 2008 defense saw ten times the number of injuries as this past years defense. The 2008 defense gave up less yards and points than this past years defense.

And you come with this response. Funny stuff.

how far have we fallen when we are wistfully thinking about the 2008 defense?

they both sucked

jhns
01-31-2011, 09:25 AM
how far have we fallen when we are wistfully thinking about the 2008 defense?

they both sucked

Yes they did. Maybe Fox can finally bring a defense to Denver.

Riley
01-31-2011, 09:26 AM
how far have we fallen when we are wistfully thinking about the 2008 defense?

they both sucked

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

vancejohnson82
01-31-2011, 09:26 AM
Yes they did. Maybe Fox can finally bring a defense to Denver.

I have no doubt the defense will improve...my only worry is watching 16 weeks or Fox-ball where we run a draw on 3rd and 10...

if there was ANYTHING good we could say about the last two years it was that the offense was at least exciting

Missouribronc
01-31-2011, 09:29 AM
I have no doubt the defense will improve...my only worry is watching 16 weeks or Fox-ball where we run a draw on 3rd and 10...

And you thought people hated the screens...unleash the wrath.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-31-2011, 09:32 AM
Orton and Marshall are old buddies....
once the CBA is done they may get to go out drinking together again.


McD gutted this team.
He alienated players that would have been fine....
he drafted like an amatuer (Moreno instead of Orakpo, Alph Smith, etc)
and his play calling was horrid. He alientated his D C ( Nolan)...
and tried to run the entire circus without any help.

Instead of a ringmaster... he was a clown.

One thing he did well last season... was his draft day trading.
Dang, that guy stockpiled picks last year, didn't he?
For good or bad...
some of those picks became Thomas, Decker, Beadles, Walton and Tebow.

Add in Gaffny, Lloyd, Clady and Royal...
Now... we do have the makings of a decent offense to move forward with.
(We need a good TE, and a late round RB, in case nobody noticed)

And still... the defense MUST be rebuilt.

No free agancy until the CBA... the draft before anything else...
Fox will have to make do with a lot of the talent we have.

They say it is a privilige to live in interesting times.

Strafen? That you?

The similarities between your posting style and his are REMARKABLE.

Austin Bronco Fan
01-31-2011, 09:35 AM
Oh. And it's not possible to judge the talent level of a team just from it's record. The New York Giants didn't suddenly become less talented in 1987 than in 1986. Same with the Redskins between 1987 and 1988.

enjolras
01-31-2011, 09:38 AM
From where I'm sitting McDaniels made two HUGE blunders:

1. Hillis
2. Andra Davis - This one just doesn't get talked about enough. That guy played huge and then was just cut for no apparent reason.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-31-2011, 09:59 AM
From where I'm sitting McDaniels made two HUGE blunders:

1. Hillis
2. Andra Davis - This one just doesn't get talked about enough. That guy played huge and then was just cut for no apparent reason.

Excellent post. Everything else I think can be forgiven or even lauded, especially moves like Cutler and Marshall. But Hillis was a massive mistake, and the Davis move just wasn't good from the start.

errand
01-31-2011, 10:04 AM
A positive season next year and it will be finished but for this off season how the infamous trio faired this season will be discussed a fair bit.

I'm sure that there will be alot on here who will still point out that we never shoulda got rid of Mike, Hillis, Cutler or Marshall and hell even a few still pine for Scheffler...but at the time of them being sent packing they were problems....

mike had us mired in mediocrity by going 24-24 over the last 3 seasons while twice costing us the playoffs.....

Hillis despite his immense physical ability had placed himself into josh's doghouse...

scheffler was a pass catching TE playing in an offense that didn't throw to the TE's and hadn't been able to stay healthy either....

was a turnover waiting to happen and acted like a spoiled brat when mike was canned.....

ditto for Marshall, who pouted his way outta town as well.

Regardless of how well they perform or don't perform out of Denver doesn't change the fact that they all brought their situation on themselves.....

Wish them well, and let them go......

Peoples Champ
01-31-2011, 10:07 AM
We wont move forward as a fanbase until we get over these "stars". New beginnings.


:Broncos:


I agree, but I like thinking that the broncos made the right call after reading articles like this. It makes me feel better about trading marshall and cutler, especially since the broncos got so much slack for getting rid of both. See them have issues with their new franchises makes me think we did the right thing.

DrFate
01-31-2011, 10:15 AM
And it's not possible to judge the talent level of a team just from it's record.

What other objective way is there to judge?

Judging 'the talent' on a team (independent of the won/loss record) is a subjective exercise akin to judging how good the players look in top hats. It simply doesn't make a lot of sense. I think baja uses this 'rationale' as his last-ditch effort to defend his opinion on McDaniels.

The team was 8-8 when he started and 4-12 when he finished. Maybe they looked beter doing it, or whatever the criteria is for 'more talented'. But it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

DrFate
01-31-2011, 10:18 AM
Here's my take on these four:

...SNIP...

The main problem with Denver going 4-12 wasn't the decrease of talent on offense. It was lack of a defense that really hurt us, pared with a lack of a running game. The power blocking scheme was poorly equipped. Hillis could have helped, but probably not enough to win more than a few more games. I still doubt we break 0.500. I think in the end we have personnel who will be more reliable and consistent from season to season. So overall, I think we'll be better off.

As I said, the general consensus (from what I've read/heard) from 'the experts' is that this team is LESS talented now than one McDaniels was hired. That was my response to baja. I don't see how anyone can come to any different conclusion.

The results certainly point to 'less talent to win NFL games'...

Of all the above you mentioned, I feel the best about Marshall. Yes, the guy has talent. That said - I don't think the Broncos missed him all that much. And he is too much of a distraction to deal with, relative to his on-field contributions.

jhns
01-31-2011, 10:32 AM
I agree, but I like thinking that the broncos made the right call after reading articles like this. It makes me feel better about trading marshall and cutler, especially since the broncos got so much slack for getting rid of both. See them have issues with their new franchises makes me think we did the right thing.

Cutler has not had a single problem with his new team. Not one.

broncocalijohn
01-31-2011, 10:42 AM
He was right about a lot of things and he left us with better personal that he inhered

You and TSIguy keep arguing that. I will wait and see on some of his picks but no, he probably made this team worse by not drafting better for defense. I hope his 2010 picks work out. If he had better players now then it shows how ****ty of a coach he really was. BTW, does "personal" include coaches?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-31-2011, 10:47 AM
Cutler has not had a single problem with his new team. Not one.

Sure, if you ignore Martz not wanting to work with him, Urlacher allegedly calling him a pussy, and getting benched with a phantom injury.

But we know. Jay can do no wrong in your eyes. You loves you some Jay. We know.

Inkana7
01-31-2011, 10:47 AM
Know who was a gem? Nate Webster. Man I miss that guy.

jhns
01-31-2011, 10:50 AM
Sure, if you ignore Martz not wanting to work with him, Urlacher allegedly calling him a p***Y, and getting benched with a phantom injury.

But we know. Jay can do no wrong in your eyes. You loves you some Jay. We know.

When did Martz say he didn't want to work with him? Of course you drama queens cling to made up rumors. You have nothing else.

Fact: Cutler has never had a problem working with anyone other than McDaniels. No one that actually knows Cutler has ever had a problem with him other than McDaniels.

Sorry, I just go with the facts moosey.

Inkana7
01-31-2011, 10:54 AM
It really sucks that we let Dewayne Robertson go.

jhns
01-31-2011, 10:57 AM
It really sucks that we let Dewayne Robertson go.

It does considering they got worse....

You McDaniels fans are weird. Worse = good!

Inkana7
01-31-2011, 11:00 AM
If only we had developed Calvin Lowry and Josh Bell!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-31-2011, 11:04 AM
When did Martz say he didn't want to work with him? Of course you drama queens cling to made up rumors. You have nothing else.

Fact: Cutler has never had a problem working with anyone other than McDaniels. No one that actually knows Cutler has ever had a problem with him other than McDaniels.

Sorry, I just go with the facts moosey.

jizz calling anyone else a drama queen = lulz.

The rumors were everywhere about Martz not wanting to work with Cutler. Of course you'd dismiss them since Cutler's cock is in your mouth and you love him so very very much. That is not terribly surprising.

Fact: Cutler demanded out of Denver the day McDaniels was hired, before even meeting with him.

Fact: You're a dink.

jhns
01-31-2011, 11:04 AM
If only we had developed Calvin Lowry and Josh Bell!

Classic McDaniels fan.

In 2008, the defense had 10 times more injuries and still was better in every way than this past years defense. They were led by Slowik. We replaced those players with older players that are worse.

McDaniels fans think this is a good thing. This is why McDaniels fans get laughed at by everyone.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-31-2011, 11:05 AM
It does considering they got worse....

You McDaniels fans are weird. Worse = good!

Where's Robertson playing now? Is he even still in the league?

I love your "everything must have something to do with McDaniels" arguing style too. Speaks to your lack of intelligence.

Inkana7
01-31-2011, 11:05 AM
I still can't believe they let Boss Bailey go after I spent all that money on his fathead. He was a talent!

jhns
01-31-2011, 11:08 AM
jizz calling anyone else a drama queen = lulz.

The rumors were everywhere about Martz not wanting to work with Cutler. Of course you'd dismiss them since Cutler's cock is in your mouth and you love him so very very much. That is not terribly surprising.

Fact: Cutler demanded out of Denver the day McDaniels was hired, before even meeting with him.

Fact: You're a dink.

Fact: You have yet to use a fact.

Fact: McDaniels fans don't know what a fact is.

Fact: The only "proof" McDaniels fans have are rumors.

Fact: Cutler did not demand a trade before the Cassel trade talk.

Fact: Cutler has never had a problem working with anyone other than McDaniels.

Fact: No one has ever had a problem with Cutler that actually knows Cutler, other than McDaniels.

Fact: McDaniels had problems working with multiple other people.

Fact: This franchise is far worse because of McDaniels.

jhns
01-31-2011, 11:10 AM
Where's Robertson playing now? Is he even still in the league?

I love your "everything must have something to do with McDaniels" arguing style too. Speaks to your lack of intelligence.

The difference in players on the defense doesn't have anything to do with McDaniels? You make McDaniels fans proud.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-31-2011, 11:10 AM
Fact: You have yet to use a fact.

Fact: McDaniels fans don't know what a fact is.

Fact: The only "proof" McDaniels fans have are rumors.

Fact: Cutler did not demand a trade before the Cassel trade talk.

Fact: Cutler has never had a problem working with anyone other than McDaniels.

Fact: No one has ever had a problem with Cutler that actually knows Cutler, other than McDaniels.

Fact: McDaniels had problems working with multiple other people.

Fact: This franchise is far worse because of McDaniels.

You must have missed the Klis report that Cutler called the FO the day McDaniels was announced as the head coach and demanded a trade. That is a fact.

Who doesn't know what a fact is? Oh right. You.

Do you actually know Cutler? Why do you defend him so readily, and in a Marshall thread no less?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-31-2011, 11:14 AM
The difference in players on the defense doesn't have anything to do with McDaniels? You make McDaniels fans proud.

Right.

So is Robertson playing anywhere? Or is he out of the league?

I know. it's folly to ask you a direct question.

vancejohnson82
01-31-2011, 11:14 AM
nobody has a problem with Cutler?

in every single poll out there he's despised

jhns
01-31-2011, 11:16 AM
You must have missed the Klis report that Cutler called the FO the day McDaniels was announced as the head coach and demanded a trade. That is a fact.

Who doesn't know what a fact is? Oh right. You.

Do you actually know Cutler? Why do you defend him so readily, and in a Marshall thread no less?

Nope, I didn't miss the report that didn't have any facts in it. I have seen quotes from Bowlen, Cutler, McDaniels, and Cutlers agent that all said that rumor was a lie back when Peter King started it over a year ago. It isn't even hard to figure out how off it is. Cutler demanded a trade and then came in to work during his off time a couple days later? McDaniels fans don't even try to think for themselves so I'm not suprised you can't figure out the truth.

I do know what a fact is. I passed the second grade. It is funny that you can't figure out what a fact is. It is a pretty simple concept.

jhns
01-31-2011, 11:19 AM
nobody has a problem with Cutler?

in every single poll out there he's despised

You seem to lack the ability to read. Let me slow this down for you.

No one that knows Cutler has a problem with Cutler, other than McDaniels. This means that of the people that have actually spent time getting to know Cutler in person. This is not including some kids that latch onto drama, rumors, and gossip in sports.

BroncoSojia
01-31-2011, 11:19 AM
Marshall is the one player I had no problem with us trading.

He had waay too many problems and baggage to be given a large contract.

I really believe he would've been gone after 2009 even if we had hired a coach other than McD.

vancejohnson82
01-31-2011, 11:33 AM
You seem to lack the ability to read. Let me slow this down for you.

No one that knows Cutler has a problem with Cutler, other than McDaniels. This means that of the people that have actually spent time getting to know Cutler in person. This is not including some kids that latch onto drama, rumors, and gossip in sports.

the guy doesnt get along with people, period. you can twist and turn it any way you want but most of the people who have had interactions with him walk away with the impression that he's a douchebag

jhns
01-31-2011, 11:42 AM
the guy doesnt get along with people, period. you can twist and turn it any way you want but most of the people who have had interactions with him walk away with the impression that he's a douchebag

LOL

Not one person that knows Cutler has said anything close to this. You are like an old chick that reads gossip magazines and believes everything in them. His teammates, current coach, and Shanahan(his old coach) have all come out saying the exact opposite of what you are claiming.

Again, no one that actually knows Cutler has had any problem with him other than McDaniels (a guy who has had problems working with multiple people)....

CEH
01-31-2011, 11:47 AM
Anyone want to hear Champ Bailey's comments about trading Cutler/Hillis and BMarsh and what he thinks about Culter's injury can listen to his show last Thursday on 87.7 the ticket

I'm not going to say what he said if you like Champ and respect his opinion you can go listen or you can just say he's gone I don't care about Bailey thinks anymore which is fine

Tombstone RJ
01-31-2011, 11:49 AM
Anyone want to hear Champ Bailey's comments about trading Cutler/Hillis and BMarsh and what he thinks about Culter's injury can listen to his show last Thursday on 87.7 the ticket

I'm not going to say what he said if you like Champ and respect his opinion you can go listen or you can just say he's gone I don't care about Bailey thinks anymore which is fine

I don't have access to the ticket radio show, can you transrcript it please?

vancejohnson82
01-31-2011, 11:50 AM
LOL

Not one person that knows Cutler has said anything close to this. You are like an old chick that reads gossip magazines and believes everything in them. His teammates, current coach, and Shanahan(his old coach) have all come out saying the exact opposite of what you are claiming.

Again, no one that actually knows Cutler has had any problem with him other than McDaniels (a guy who has had problems working with multiple people)....

it says a lot if your co-workers comment publicly about your work ethic...and that's exactly what happened with Cutler...if he was well respected around the league peopel wouldn't have come out in numbers and called him out

keep the veil on widow

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-31-2011, 11:56 AM
I think the name of this forum should be changed to the "Jizz defends Jay Cutler as often as possible, regardless of topic" forum. Would certainly be more accurate.

jhns
01-31-2011, 12:09 PM
it says a lot if your co-workers comment publicly about your work ethic...and that's exactly what happened with Cutler...if he was well respected around the league peopel wouldn't have come out in numbers and called him out

keep the veil on widow

Not one person that works with Cutler has come out and said anything bad. In fact, it is just the opposite of what you are claiming. The people that work with him came out and defended him after each media made up controversy....

You drama queens are silly.

Kaylore
01-31-2011, 12:11 PM
Know who was a gem? Nate Webster. Man I miss that guy.

He was like a Rock 'em Sock 'em Robot. Just run into something with moderate intensity and his helmet pops right off!

Kaylore
01-31-2011, 12:13 PM
nobody has a problem with Cutler?

in every single poll out there he's despised

Jhiz and Strafen will now say you love Mcdaniels.

Austin Bronco Fan
01-31-2011, 12:18 PM
What other objective way is there to judge?

Judging 'the talent' on a team (independent of the won/loss record) is a subjective exercise akin to judging how good the players look in top hats. It simply doesn't make a lot of sense. I think baja uses this 'rationale' as his last-ditch effort to defend his opinion on McDaniels.

The team was 8-8 when he started and 4-12 when he finished. Maybe they looked beter doing it, or whatever the criteria is for 'more talented'. But it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

You can have a lot of talent on a team, and not utilize it well. (See Houston Texans) You can also have a team that's not very deep on talent do well (or at least be competitive). The problem is, talent level is only one of a very long list of variables that affect a team's W/L record. So you can't reliably use it as a "black and white" measure of a team's talent. Again, take a look at history. Did the amount of talent on the Giants change drastically between '86 and '87? No. Yet they won the SB in '86 and finished below .500 in '87. Redskins did the same thing. In 2009 we were 6-0. Did we suddenly lose a ton of player talent before finishing that season 2-8?

Only way to judge talent is to evaluate upside potential and project into the future. You can't look backwards. I think for the long term, the upside potential of the QB, TE's and WR's we have will outperform what we would get w/ Cutler/Marshall/Scheffler.

vancejohnson82
01-31-2011, 12:18 PM
Jhiz and Strafen will now say you love Mcdaniels.

I'm not saying if Cutler IS or ISN'T a douche rocket

what is clear is that he hasn't made many friends around the league, judging by the backlash he got after the NFCCG

jhns
01-31-2011, 12:27 PM
Jhiz and Strafen will now say you love Mcdaniels.

Yup. We like to state the obvious. My original response was about his lack of reading ability though.

jhns
01-31-2011, 12:29 PM
I'm not saying if Cutler IS or ISN'T a douche rocket

what is clear is that he hasn't made many friends around the league, judging by the backlash he got after the NFCCG

"Judging by comments made from people that have never met him."

LOL

It is funny that McDaniels fans can't figure out why everyone laughs at them.

Missouribronc
01-31-2011, 12:31 PM
"Judging by comments made from people that have never met him."

LOL

It is funny that McDaniels fans can't figure out why everyone laughs at them.

Just curious. How do you know these players who spoke up about Fakeler don't know him?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-31-2011, 12:35 PM
nobody has a problem with Cutler?

in every single poll out there he's despised

"Those peeple dont know him the way I do! they don't know the reel jay! lolZ!"
-jizz

Beantown Bronco
01-31-2011, 12:35 PM
Again, no one that actually knows Cutler has had any problem with him other than McDaniels (a guy who has had problems working with multiple people)....

Pat Bowlen disagrees

CEH
01-31-2011, 12:35 PM
I don't have access to the ticket radio show, can you transrcript it please?

Maybe we need Montrose to see if he can get the podcast from Bailey latest show. I don't see it on the site

Champ talks candidly about the good things he hears about John Fox, wanting to stay in Denver, the Pro Bowl, talent leaving the last two years and if he thinks Cutler is tough . Does not question Jay's toughness. If he injured he's injured. One of the toughest guys he's been around

In a nutshell, said the last two year the Broncos have sucked

strafen
01-31-2011, 12:37 PM
I still can't believe they let Boss Bailey go after I spent all that money on his fathead. He was a talent!
are you sure you don't mean that guy Jamal Williams I thiink it was (Green?!) that was signed and PAID and never played a down for us?
Yup. Keep coming up with stupid comments like that. You're doing great! :thumbs:

That's the one you should be missing.
Wait. You're ok with that one, because it was McDaniels that ****ed-up, therefore, it's just fine with :rofl:

jhns
01-31-2011, 12:38 PM
Just curious. How do you know these players who spoke up about Fakeler don't know him?

1) None have been on a team with him.

2) A couple have retracted their statements and admitted as much...

3) Most of them aren't even from players, the quotes were from analyst drama queens like Neon Deion, the least classy player of his era(who also has said he doesn't know Cutler).

4) Everyone that has talked and been on a team with Cutler has only had good things to say (other than McDaniels).

I think it is pretty obvious. Then, I also use my brain unlike McDaniels fans.

jhns
01-31-2011, 12:39 PM
Pat Bowlen disagrees

Really? Where is a quote from Bowlen saying something bad about Cutlers personality?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-31-2011, 12:40 PM
are you sure you don't mean that guy Jamal Williams I thiink it was that was signed and PAID and never played a down for us?
Yup. Keep coming up with stupid comments like that. You're doing great! :thumbs:

That's the one you should be missing :rofl:

You should really try watching the team play sometime. Might make you look less dumb.

MIGHT is the operative word there.

Jamal Williams played most of the season. You're thinking of the guy who was brought in from New England who was injured in training camp and cut before the season.

You're welcome.

jhns
01-31-2011, 12:41 PM
Said the last two year the Broncos have sucked in a nutshell

So he agrees with Elway, the guy currently running the team. The guy that is currently in charge of personnel is laughing at you McDaniels fans. You better hope Elway knows what he is talking about when it comes to this McDaniels fans. If he doesn't, the franchise is screwed for a while.

strafen
01-31-2011, 12:42 PM
Jhiz and Strafen will now say you love Mcdaniels.That goes without saying... :thumbs::thumbsup:

Missouribronc
01-31-2011, 12:45 PM
I think it is pretty obvious. Then, I also use my brain unlike McDaniels fans.

If listening to player-speak and coach-speak soundbites from NFL players means thinking for yourself, then yes, you are thinking for yourself...

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-31-2011, 12:48 PM
DERPA Derp DERP! Jay Loves JHNS. Jay loves JHNS. Jay Loves JHNS. Mrs. Jhns Cutler.

/doodles from jhns' Trapper Keeper.

DrFate
01-31-2011, 12:50 PM
Only way to judge talent is to evaluate upside potential and project into the future.

The entire concept is kind of silly. I know what you are trying to say, I think. There is more to winning than 'talent - ie: hard-working teams win more games than slacker, individually talented ones.

That said - projecting into the future is impossible to quantify, measure, or judge. You might as well call Ms. Cleo on her 900 line and see what she thinks. The team went from 8-8 to 4-12. That is a metric I can measure. The results that count are wins/losses, and deciding that the team is 'better' in some way, which you can't measure, (and doesn't show in the field) doesn't demonstrate much to me.

That said - The consensus from every analyst/talking head I've seen is that the team was decimated (from a talent level) by McDaniels. (Baja being the main exception, if we give him the 'analyst' title)

(I do realize the irony of pointing out how silly this argument is, yet arguing about it) :~ohyah!:

jhns
01-31-2011, 12:51 PM
If listening to player-speak and coach-speak soundbites from NFL players means thinking for yourself, then yes, you are thinking for yourself...

You don't even try to make sense. Not that this is a surprise coming from a McDaniels fan.

vancejohnson82
01-31-2011, 12:52 PM
1) None have been on a team with him.

2) A couple have retracted their statements and admitted as much...

3) Most of them aren't even from players, the quotes were from analyst drama queens like Neon Deion, the least classy player of his era(who also has said he doesn't know Cutler).

4) Everyone that has talked and been on a team with Cutler has only had good things to say (other than McDaniels).

I think it is pretty obvious. Then, I also use my brain unlike McDaniels fans.

its obvious that you don't watch the team

jhns
01-31-2011, 12:55 PM
its obvious that you don't watch the team

Again, not able to make sense. This is a trend from McDaniels fans.

Dagmar
01-31-2011, 01:05 PM
are you sure you don't mean that guy Jamal Williams I thiink it was (Green?!) that was signed and PAID and never played a down for us?
Yup. Keep coming up with stupid comments like that. You're doing great! :thumbs:

That's the one you should be missing.
Wait. You're ok with that one, because it was McDaniels that ****ed-up, therefore, it's just fine with :rofl:

Holy ****. I never considered this before, but you don't even watch the Broncos do you? Jamal Williams started 16 games for the Broncos this year.
http://img3.visualizeus.com/thumbs/10/01/04/funny,clap-b0ef835f89728de9620862354bca0b31_h.jpg

Inkana7
01-31-2011, 01:05 PM
Jamie Winborn would have propelled this defense into the top half of the league.

Beantown Bronco
01-31-2011, 01:05 PM
Really? Where is a quote from Bowlen saying something bad about Cutlers personality?

Where is the word personality in the post I was responding to?

You said and I quote "no one that actually knows Cutler has had any problem with him other than McDaniels"

Bowlen did. Period.

jhns
01-31-2011, 01:08 PM
Where is the word personality in the post I was responding to?

You said and I quote "no one that actually knows Cutler has had any problem with him other than McDaniels"

Bowlen did. Period.

Wrong. Bowlen was backing his coach so that his coach had no excuses for failing.

I highly doubt the guy that proclaimed "Cutler is now the man around here, this is his team." also had a problem with Cutler.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-31-2011, 01:12 PM
Wrong. Bowlen was backing his coach so that his coach had no excuses for failing.

I highly doubt the guy that proclaimed "Cutler is now the man around here, this is his team." also had a problem with Cutler.

Except that he was the one who ultimately shipped Cutler out of town.

Yeah, I'm sure he wouldn't have told his hand-picked coach to make it work if he loved Cutler and his attitude.

You love Jay. We know. You're completely blind to his immense failings as a human being. Can we get back to the topic of the thread now? Are you even capable of this?

Missouribronc
01-31-2011, 01:12 PM
Wrong. Bowlen was backing his coach so that his coach had no excuses for failing.

I highly doubt the guy that proclaimed "Cutler is now the man around here, this is his team." also had a problem with Cutler.

What?

Really?

jhns
01-31-2011, 01:16 PM
What?

Really?

Yeah, really. When is the last time you heard someone give that kind of vote of confidence to someone they had a problem with? This vote of confidence came after Bowlen had worked with Cutler for three years... Doesn't seem like he thought Cutler was a douche, or didn't work hard, or whatever it is the current claim is.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-31-2011, 01:19 PM
Yeah, really. When is the last time you heard someone give that kind of vote of confidence to someone they had a problem with? This vote of confidence came after Bowlen had worked with Cutler for three years... Doesn't seem like he thought Cutler was a douche, or didn't work hard, or whatever it is the current claim is.

And surely Cutler's childish "i'm not calling him back" games didn't affect Bowlen's opinion.

Yeah, that's it.

I'm sure Bowlen wouldn't have rather handled the issue in-house than run everything through the media for national scrutiny, as Cutler insisted upon doing.

Missouribronc
01-31-2011, 01:20 PM
Yeah, really. When is the last time you heard someone give that kind of vote of confidence to someone they had a problem with? This vote of confidence came after Bowlen had worked with Cutler for three years... Doesn't seem like he thought Cutler was a douche, or didn't work hard, or whatever it is the current claim is.

I believe the exact quote was, "I guess he's the man around here now."

I guess...as in, I just fired the coach and the next big figure in town is the quarterback, by default...

Then that de facto "man" decided to throw a hissy fit and not call his boss (Bowlen) back and Bowlen decided he couldn't work with a disgruntled and insubordinate employee, so he shipped him it out of town.

I believe that's what Paul Harvey calls the rest of the story.

jhns
01-31-2011, 01:25 PM
I believe the exact quote was, "I guess he's the man around here now."

I guess...as in, I just fired the coach and the next big figure in town is the quarterback, by default...

Then that de facto "man" decided to throw a hissy fit and not call his boss (Bowlen) back and Bowlen decided he couldn't work with a disgruntled and insubordinate employee, so he shipped him it out of town.

I believe that's what Paul Harvey calls the rest of the story.

Yeah, a McDaniels created problem. I already claimed Cutler has never had a problem working with anyone that he has worked with outside of McDaniels. Bowlen didn't have a problem with Jay. Your McDaniels fan twist of his quote doesn't change this fact. Bowlen worked with Cutler for three years without a single problem. He then gives him his vote of confidence. McDaniels creates a problem and to McDaniels fans this shows Bowlen had a problem working with Cutler...

Funny stuff McDaniels fans.

Missouribronc
01-31-2011, 01:26 PM
Yeah, a McDaniels created problem. I already claimed Cutler has never had a problem working with anyone that he has worked with outside of McDaniels. Bowlen didn't have a problem with Jay. Your McDaniels fan twist of his quote doesn't change this fact. Bowlen worked with Cutler for three years without a single problem. He then gives him his vote of confidence. McDaniels creates a problem and to McDaniels fans this shows Bowlen had a problem working with Cutler...

Funny stuff McDaniels fans.

Except that's not how it happened. Funny stuff Cutler fan.

strafen
01-31-2011, 01:30 PM
Holy ****. I never considered this before, but you don't even watch the Broncos do you? Jamal Williams started 16 games for the Broncos this year.
http://img3.visualizeus.com/thumbs/10/01/04/funny,clap-b0ef835f89728de9620862354bca0b31_h.jpg
What's up a-hole?
Got back from your exile?
How many times do they need to ban your ass until they make it permanent?

Back to the topic. About you reading SLOW so you can comprehend what you're actually reading.
Anybody that WATCHED football knew what I meant.
That's why I implied I wasn't sure which one of the tons of scrubs McDaniels signed was the one I meant to say. That's why I later said Green?

Did you miss that part, or are you back to being a douche that you are and create drama.
Drama and hijacking threads is what your stupid ass knows best, isn't it?
We were missing your stupid pics and gif.

jhns
01-31-2011, 01:32 PM
Bowlens exact quote after Shanahan was fired.

"I talked to (QB) Jay Cutler, and Jay understood the conversation. I talked to him this morning. I didn't get any negative feedback. I think he understands enough about the business of football, the game of football, that there are going to be coaching changes and changes in organizations. I didn't sense that Jay had any negative feelings about it, and I'm sure he is very interested in who is going to be the next head coach. Obviously, he is the man around here now, so I will be talking with Jay."

Wow, I can't believe Jay even lasted as long as he did. Bowlen sure had a problem with him!

jhns
01-31-2011, 01:33 PM
Except that's not how it happened. Funny stuff Cutler fan.

It is exactly how it happened. Cutler and Bowlen had no problem working together until McDaniels created a problem. That is what McDaniels does. It is why he failed so bad. He can't work with others.

It is no surprise a McDaniels fan doesn't get it.

HAT
01-31-2011, 02:09 PM
Bowlens exact quote after Shanahan was fired.

"I talked to (QB) Jay Cutler, and Jay understood the conversation. I talked to him this morning. I didn't get any negative feedback. I think he understands enough about the business of football, the game of football, that there are going to be coaching changes and changes in organizations. I didn't sense that Jay had any negative feelings about it, and I'm sure he is very interested in who is going to be the next head coach. Obviously, he is the man around here now, so I will be talking with Jay."

Wow, I can't believe Jay even lasted as long as he did. Bowlen sure had a problem with him!

Bowlen had no reason to have a problem with Jay at the time of this quote. It was only after they hired McD without "talking to Jay" that your boy went all emo because he knew that Bates was on the way out.

jhns
01-31-2011, 02:14 PM
Bowlen had no reason to have a problem with Jay at the time of this quote. It was only after they hired McD without "talking to Jay" that your boy went all emo because he knew that Bates was on the way out.

Nope, it was only after McDaniels lied to him that he went all emo.

I also find it funny that some still believe Bowlen was the one who made the decision to trade him. Sure, he claimed it to back his coach at the time. Now everyone involved is saying stuff about how "it was a one man show in Denver." and so on... Then there is Elways comment about how Cutler would be here if he was in his current position then. Do you guys think Elway is dumb, that you know more about the situation than him, or that he now has more power than Bowlen? It has to be one of those three choices.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-31-2011, 02:16 PM
Nope, it was only after McDaniels lied to him that he went all emo.

I also find it funny that some still believe Bowlen was the one who made the decision to trade him. Sure, he claimed it to back his coach at the time. Now everyone involved is saying stuff about how "it was a one man show in Denver." and so on... Then there is Elways comment about how Cutler would be here if he was in his current position then. Do you guys think Elway is dumb, that you know more about the situation than him, or that he now has more power than Bowlen? It has to be one of those three choices.

Not according to the article last week from Broncos beat writer Mike Klis. But that says bad things about your favorite person, so I'm sure you'll dismiss it and its 3 NFL sources.

HAT
01-31-2011, 02:19 PM
hen there is Elways comment about how Cutler would be here if he was in his current position then.

Then let's all be grateful that he wasn't in that position then. :thumbs:

jhns
01-31-2011, 02:21 PM
Not according to the article last week from Broncos beat writer Mike Klis. But that says bad things about your favorite person, so I'm sure you'll dismiss it and its 3 NFL sources.

You would believe everything you read. You are a McDaniels fan. That article didn't have a single source. If it did, who were they?

You do know that Cutler, Bowlen, McDaniels, and Cutlers agent have all denied this, right? You do know that Cutler came in on his vacation to work with McDaniels right after the hire, right? This is something that a pissed off employee asking for a trade does? They come work in their time off with the guy they are pissed about being hired? Weird.

It is ok, McDaniels fans never make sense. You fit right in.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-31-2011, 02:34 PM
You would believe everything you read. You are a McDaniels fan. That article didn't have a single source. If it did, who were they?

You do know that Cutler, Bowlen, McDaniels, and Cutlers agent have all denied this, right? You do know that Cutler came in on his vacation to work with McDaniels right after the hire, right? This is something that a pissed off employee asking for a trade does? They come work in their time off with the guy they are pissed about being hired? Weird.

It is ok, McDaniels fans never make sense. You fit right in.

And you would dismiss anything that says your boy Cutler is something less than the king of kings. You accept as fact published reports of something that makes the organization look bad, dismiss anything that makes Cutler look like a questionable character.

Not surprising that nobody takes you seriously.

Inkana7
01-31-2011, 02:36 PM
Silly Cutler fans. Always so emotional.

TheChamp24
01-31-2011, 02:38 PM
http://la.indymedia.org/uploads/2004/08/wazzup.jpg

jhns
01-31-2011, 02:43 PM
And you would dismiss anything that says your boy Cutler is something less than the king of kings. You accept as fact published reports of something that makes the organization look bad, dismiss anything that makes Cutler look like a questionable character.

Not surprising that nobody takes you seriously.

You only come with rumors. No surprise you can't be taken seriously.

I agree with the guy currently in charge of the organization. Specifically, the guy in charge of personnel. I think you are confused about what the homer should think. Elway is in charge. Elway said it was a mistake that would have never happened if he was here. If I am wrong, Elway is wrong. If Elway is wrong, the organization is screwed for a while because he doesn't know personnel (his current job). I am the one supporting the current organization. You are the ones still trying to justify what the failure McDaniels did.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-31-2011, 02:44 PM
You only come with rumors. No surprise you can't be taken seriously.

I agree with the guy currently in charge of the organization. Specifically, the guy in charge of personnel. I think you are confused about what the homer should think. Elway is in charge. Elway said it was a mistake that would have never happened if he was here. If I am wrong, Elway is wrong. If Elway is wrong, the organization is screwed for a while because he doesn't know personnel (his current job). I am the one supporting the current organization. You are the ones still trying to justify what the failure McDaniels did.

Nope. You're the one blinded by Jay's baby batter in your eye. The rest of us are ready to move on.

I'm still happy Jay's gone, and considering what we received in exchange, I'm very pleased with how the organization handled a pouty, me-first asshole demanding his way out of town.

rugbythug
01-31-2011, 02:44 PM
Are morons argueing curled mcdaniels in a bn thread

jhns
01-31-2011, 02:47 PM
Nope. You're the one blinded by Jay's baby batter in your eye. The rest of us are ready to move on.

I'm still happy Jay's gone, and considering what we received in exchange, I'm very pleased with how the organization handled a pouty, me-first a-hole demanding his way out of town.

LOL

You have moved on huh?

jhns
01-31-2011, 02:49 PM
Are morons argueing curled mcdaniels in a bn thread

Classic.

Missouribronc
01-31-2011, 02:51 PM
Classic.

Huh?

Unless I'm missing an inside joke, that sentence isn't even English.

TheChamp24
01-31-2011, 02:53 PM
http://files.myopera.com/draggysicyfire/albums/635234/moron.jpg

jhns
01-31-2011, 02:54 PM
Huh?

Unless I'm missing an inside joke, that sentence isn't even English.

I was calling the post a classic for that very reason. He calls others morons in a post that goes "Are morons *random noises* thread!"

Baba Booey
01-31-2011, 03:54 PM
We ended up with a better Brandon in the end.

Grow up already, Marshall.

Austin Bronco Fan
01-31-2011, 05:17 PM
The entire concept is kind of silly. I know what you are trying to say, I think. There is more to winning than 'talent - ie: hard-working teams win more games than slacker, individually talented ones.

That said - projecting into the future is impossible to quantify, measure, or judge. You might as well call Ms. Cleo on her 900 line and see what she thinks. The team went from 8-8 to 4-12. That is a metric I can measure. The results that count are wins/losses, and deciding that the team is 'better' in some way, which you can't measure, (and doesn't show in the field) doesn't demonstrate much to me.

That said - The consensus from every analyst/talking head I've seen is that the team was decimated (from a talent level) by McDaniels. (Baja being the main exception, if we give him the 'analyst' title)

(I do realize the irony of pointing out how silly this argument is, yet arguing about it) :~ohyah!:

Well, the consensus from the analysts and talking heads also said JaMarcus Russell was NFL ready and would tear up the league. They tend to take the easy way out I find.

But you're right. Kinda silly to argue at this point. Hilarious!

All we can do at this point is sit back, watch, and see if the analysts are wrong. I'm just playing the odds;)

baja
01-31-2011, 07:12 PM
As I said, the general consensus (from what I've read/heard) from 'the experts' is that this team is LESS talented now than one McDaniels was hired. That was my response to baja. I don't see how anyone can come to any different conclusion.

The results certainly point to 'less talent to win NFL games'...

Of all the above you mentioned, I feel the best about Marshall. Yes, the guy has talent. That said - I don't think the Broncos missed him all that much. And he is too much of a distraction to deal with, relative to his on-field contributions.

Part of my reasoning is based on the intangibles of that talent. Both Marshall and Cutler would have to be considered more talented on the field than their current counterparts but I factor in the damage they bring to the locker room and the team. Teams will not win much with these physically talented by mentally bankrupt individuals so considering the total package we are better off with the players we have now than the players we had.

Also there is that little fact that 32 of Shanny's players never saw the field again after he left.

baja
01-31-2011, 07:17 PM
You and TSIguy keep arguing that. I will wait and see on some of his picks but no, he probably made this team worse by not drafting better for defense. I hope his 2010 picks work out. If he had better players now then it shows how ****ty of a coach he really was. BTW, does "personal" include coaches?

I have no idea how to evaluate position coaches. Do you?

baja
01-31-2011, 07:24 PM
Jamie Winborn would have propelled this defense into the top half of the league.

Dude you are on a roll in this thread. ;D

zdoor
01-31-2011, 07:30 PM
Part of my reasoning is based on the intangibles of that talent. Both Marshall and Cutler would have to be considered more talented on the field than their current counterparts but I factor in the damage they bring to the locker room and the team. Teams will not win much with these physically talented by mentally bankrupt individuals so considering the total package we are better off with the players we have now than the players we had.

Also there is that little fact that 32 of Shanny's players never saw the field again after he left.

The 32 player statement could be true of this team also after the new staff goes through the roster. Just sayin.....

Missouribronc
01-31-2011, 07:34 PM
The 32 player statement could be true of this team also after the new staff goes through the roster. Just sayin.....

It really does amaze me that Shanahan managed to post .500 records, or near that every year. McDaniels was doomed from the start. Drama queen, overrated skill players and a terrible defense...

Archer81
01-31-2011, 07:37 PM
Drama queen, overrated skill players and a terrible defense...


Honestly, that sounds like 2006 to 2008 as well.

:Broncos:

Missouribronc
01-31-2011, 07:40 PM
Honestly, that sounds like 2006 to 2008 as well.

:Broncos:

Exactly my point.

baja
01-31-2011, 07:41 PM
The 32 player statement could be true of this team also after the new staff goes through the roster. Just sayin.....

True enough but right now everyone of them is on the team so one is a know and the other is an unknown that fact coupled with my take on the poison nature of Cutler & marshall I would I have made a case for my defense of my opinion that we are better player wise now than we were when Shanny left.

Truth is we have no way of really knowing but my reasoning has more substance backing it up that the other side of the argument.

baja
01-31-2011, 07:44 PM
The one thing we can take from all this is Shanahan is one hell of a head coach and one hell of a piss poor talent evaluator.

jhns
01-31-2011, 08:06 PM
Also there is that little fact that 32 of Shanny's players never saw the field again after he left.

That is a made up stat. It has never been proven in the many times it has been posted.

McDaniels fans having trouble with this fact thing again.

jhns
01-31-2011, 08:09 PM
True enough but right now everyone of them is on the team so one is a know and the other is an unknown that fact coupled with my take on the poison nature of Cutler & marshall I would I have made a case for my defense of my opinion that we are better player wise now than we were when Shanny left.

Truth is we have no way of really knowing but my reasoning has more substance backing it up that the other side of the argument.

LOL

You have nothing baja. This has been obvious for a long time.

baja
01-31-2011, 08:09 PM
That is a made up stat. It has never been proven in the many times it has been posted.

McDaniels fans having trouble with this fact thing again.

Are you nuts? That had been shown to be true. It is very easy to establish either the players in the league or they are out of the league.

jhns
01-31-2011, 08:09 PM
Are you nuts? That had been shown to be true. It is very easy to establish either the players in the league or they are out of the league.

Then show it. It has never once been proven and I have asked every time it has been posted. I even made a thread on it to help you prove it once.

Missouribronc
01-31-2011, 08:11 PM
That is a made up stat. It has never been proven in the many times it has been posted.

McDaniels fans having trouble with this fact thing again.

LMAO.

Dude, you fail on so many levels. Now, you are arguing that that is unproven?

Really?

Stupid is as stupid does.

baja
01-31-2011, 08:12 PM
LOL

You have nothing baja. This has been obvious for a long time.

Coming from you I'll consider that a complement

jhns
01-31-2011, 08:13 PM
LMAO.

Dude, you fail on so many levels. Now, you are arguing that that is unproven?

Really?

Stupid is as stupid does.

Then prove it. You sure talk a lot and don't bring much.

Here, I even got you started. You just need to find three more. Then you need to realize the reality of the numbers.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=94520

baja
01-31-2011, 08:14 PM
Then show it. It has never once been proven and I have asked every time it has been posted. I even made a thread on it to help you prove it once.

Screw you you "prove" it. I already know the answer.

Missouribronc
01-31-2011, 08:15 PM
Then prove it. You sure talk a lot and don't bring much.

Here, I even got you started. You just need to find three more. Then you need to realize the reality of the numbers.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=94520

You're kidding, right?

I meanm you realize you're just stupid att this point, right?

jhns
01-31-2011, 08:15 PM
Screw you you "prove" it. I already know the answer.

LOL

Spoken like someone that has no clue what they are talking about.

jhns
01-31-2011, 08:16 PM
You're kidding, right?

I meanm you realize you're just stupid att this point, right?

Again, posted from someone that has nothing.

Requiem
01-31-2011, 08:23 PM
We're sorta like 7-Eleven. We're not always doing business, but we're always open.

HAT
01-31-2011, 08:29 PM
What other objective way is there to judge?

Judging 'the talent' on a team (independent of the won/loss record) is a subjective exercise akin to judging how good the players look in top hats. It simply doesn't make a lot of sense. I think baja uses this 'rationale' as his last-ditch effort to defend his opinion on McDaniels.

The team was 8-8 when he started and 4-12 when he finished. Maybe they looked beter doing it, or whatever the criteria is for 'more talented'. But it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

McD's 28 game record: 11-17
Shanny's last 28 games with Denver: 13-15

If you want to count Studesville's 4 games with "McD's guys"....Fine.

2009 & 2010 Broncos: 12-20
2007 & 2008 Broncos: 15-17

I'd argue that the while the talent changed, it didn't drop off at all.

A head coach with over a dozen years experience in that position was a whopping 2 games better than a 33 year old rookie over the same time period.....And 3 games better than McD and an interim. BFD

Both defenses sucked so there's really no point in comparing either. When the talking heads say McD decimated the 'talent', they are really only talking about the skill positions.

At the end of the day, it comes down to who would you rather have going forward.....

Tebow, Orton, Moreno, C-Buck, White, Lloyd, Gaff, Royal, DT, Decker, Graham, Gronk, Quinn

-OR-

Cutler, Ramsey, Selvin, Hillis, Torrain, Marshall, Royal, Stokely, Graham, Scheff, Mustard ( ROFL! )

Sure, Shanny's group has some individual preferences in there but as a whole I don't see how anyone views McD's guys as 'less talented'.

baja
01-31-2011, 08:34 PM
LOL

Spoken like someone that has no clue what they are talking about.

Funny thing is I have grand kids that are more mature than you.

You know how I know there is a God.

Because of His compassion, when he made you as stupid as He did He also made you stupid enough that you have no idea how incredibly dense you are perceived here. That's compassion.

Missouribronc
01-31-2011, 08:35 PM
Patrick Ramsey
Selvin Young
Tatum Bell
P.J. Pope
Nate Jackson
Darrell Jackson
Glenn Martinez
Chad Jackson
Cliff Russell
Chad Mustard
Jeb Putzier
Jamie Winborn
Marquand Manuel
Nate Webster
Ebenezer Ekuban
Boss Bailey
Josh Bell
Marlon McCree
DeWayne Robertson
Calvin Lowry
Vernon Fox
Roderick Rogers
Louis Green
Nic Clemons
Niko Koutavides
Hamzah Abdullah
Andre Hall
Cory Boyd

Well, there's 28.

Jayhns...stupid is as stupid does...

broncocalijohn
01-31-2011, 08:39 PM
I have no idea how to evaluate position coaches. Do you?

Well, when we lost coaches to Shanny and Nolan to Miami, I would say we lost a ton in coaching aspect.

HAT
01-31-2011, 08:40 PM
Jayhns...stupid is as stupid does...

:strong:

He really should just un-abbreviate his handle.....We all know it stands for:

Jay
Has
No
Shortcomings

schaaf
01-31-2011, 08:52 PM
Patrick Ramsey
Selvin Young
Tatum Bell
P.J. Pope
Nate Jackson
Darrell Jackson
Glenn Martinez
Chad Jackson
Cliff Russell
Chad Mustard
Jeb Putzier
Jamie Winborn
Marquand Manuel
Nate Webster
Ebenezer Ekuban
Boss Bailey
Josh Bell
Marlon McCree
DeWayne Robertson
Calvin Lowry
Vernon Fox
Roderick Rogers
Louis Green
Nic Clemons
Niko Koutavides
Hamzah Abdullah
Andre Hall
Cory Boyd

Well, there's 28.

Jayhns...stupid is as stupid does...


Umm Tatum Bell??? UFL anyone ROFL!

misturanderson
01-31-2011, 09:47 PM
Patrick Ramsey
Selvin Young
Tatum Bell
P.J. Pope
Nate Jackson
Darrell Jackson
Glenn Martinez
Chad Jackson
Cliff Russell
Chad Mustard
Jeb Putzier
Jamie Winborn
Marquand Manuel
Nate Webster
Ebenezer Ekuban
Boss Bailey
Josh Bell
Marlon McCree
DeWayne Robertson
Calvin Lowry
Vernon Fox
Roderick Rogers
Louis Green
Nic Clemons
Niko Koutavides
Hamzah Abdullah
Andre Hall
Cory Boyd

Well, there's 28.

Jayhns...stupid is as stupid does...

That is a whole lot of fail at the LB, S and RB positions. With some WR, TE and DL players thrown in for good measure. And Shanny had a lot of those guys starting, not just because of injury either.

cutthemdown
01-31-2011, 10:05 PM
When one person lists all the crappy players Shannahan put on roster, then another lists all the ones Mcdaniels screwed up on, it's easy to see why we stink right now.

I have faith Elway will right the ship. The more i think about it the more I am coming around.

Riley
01-31-2011, 10:25 PM
Strafen? That you?

The similarities between your posting style and his are REMARKABLE.

Nope. I don't know a Strafen.

Have never been here before. Always heard about this place...
thought I'd mosy on over and see what is up.

So far so good....?

Killericon
01-31-2011, 11:31 PM
http://www.lulz.ro/pics/1260654052470.jpg

DrFate
02-01-2011, 05:49 AM
Also there is that little fact that 32 of Shanny's players never saw the field again after he left.

And yet those 32 players who never saw the field again were able to win more games than the current megatalented team they put on the field today?

baja
02-01-2011, 06:05 AM
And yet those 32 players who never saw the field again were able to win more games than the current megatalented team they put on the field today?

You're a funny guy sometimes you make a great point with an intelligent post than you follow it with some disingenuous crap. Go figure.

I never said that Shanahan was not a great coach. I think I pointed that out in this very thread.


I also never said the current roster was mega talented just better than the roster that McD inherited from Shanny. You know as in improved.

jhns
02-01-2011, 06:08 AM
Patrick Ramsey
Selvin Young
Tatum Bell
P.J. Pope
Nate Jackson
Darrell Jackson
Glenn Martinez
Chad Jackson
Cliff Russell
Chad Mustard
Jeb Putzier
Jamie Winborn
Marquand Manuel
Nate Webster
Ebenezer Ekuban
Boss Bailey
Josh Bell
Marlon McCree
DeWayne Robertson
Calvin Lowry
Vernon Fox
Roderick Rogers
Louis Green
Nic Clemons
Niko Koutavides
Hamzah Abdullah
Andre Hall
Cory Boyd

Well, there's 28.

Jayhns...stupid is as stupid does...

Ummm, 28 is less than 32. You call me stupid as I give you 29 names and you can only come back with 28?

LOL

McDaniels fans are funny. They lack the ability to know what a fact is. They can't back anything that they say. No surprise.

jhns
02-01-2011, 06:11 AM
Funny thing is I have grand kids that are more mature than you.

You know how I know there is a God.

Because of His compassion, when he made you as stupid as He did He also made you stupid enough that you have no idea how incredibly dense you are perceived here. That's compassion.

You McDaniels fans are getting kind of pathetic. It is obvious that you can't back anything that you say. I even did most of the work for you.

Pathetic.

TheChamp24
02-01-2011, 06:17 AM
McD's 28 game record: 11-17
Shanny's last 28 games with Denver: 13-15

If you want to count Studesville's 4 games with "McD's guys"....Fine.

2009 & 2010 Broncos: 12-20
2007 & 2008 Broncos: 15-17

I'd argue that the while the talent changed, it didn't drop off at all.

A head coach with over a dozen years experience in that position was a whopping 2 games better than a 33 year old rookie over the same time period.....And 3 games better than McD and an interim. BFD

Both defenses sucked so there's really no point in comparing either. When the talking heads say McD decimated the 'talent', they are really only talking about the skill positions.

At the end of the day, it comes down to who would you rather have going forward.....

Tebow, Orton, Moreno, C-Buck, White, Lloyd, Gaff, Royal, DT, Decker, Graham, Gronk, Quinn

-OR-

Cutler, Ramsey, Selvin, Hillis, Torrain, Marshall, Royal, Stokely, Graham, Scheff, Mustard ( ROFL! )

Sure, Shanny's group has some individual preferences in there but as a whole I don't see how anyone views McD's guys as 'less talented'.

You also have to factor in 2 years of drafts and 2 years of free agency if you want to go that route. I know for damn sure we wouldn't have wasted a 1st round pick on Moreno, and wouldn't have traded a future first for a CB.

DrFate
02-01-2011, 06:19 AM
You're a funny guy sometimes you make a great point with an intelligent post than you follow it with some disingenuous crap. Go figure.

I don't believe my post was disingenuous in any way. Sardonic, perhpas...

I never said that Shanahan was not a great coach. I think I pointed that out in this very thread.

I have not mentioned coaching acumen, of Shanahan, McDaniels, or anyone else.

I also never said the current roster was mega talented just better than the roster that McD inherited from Shanny. You know as in improved.

Which I still don't understand. How does one claim a 4-12 team is 'more talented' than an 8-8 team? Even if we accept the premise as true (for the sake of argument) - what difference does it make if it doesn't translate to on-field success? Isn't this the same argument Charger fans make year after year around midseason, and this board laughs at them for being 'the best 4-4 team of all time'?

I had a similar conversation with a friend of mine (Dallas fan). He wanted to talk about how much 'better off' Dallas was than Washington. I told him it was BS. How is a 6-10 Dallas 'much better off' than a 6-10 Washington?

jhns
02-01-2011, 06:20 AM
That is a whole lot of fail at the LB, S and RB positions. With some WR, TE and DL players thrown in for good measure. And Shanny had a lot of those guys starting, not just because of injury either.

The only reason the list is that long is because of injury. A ton of guys from that team were signed mid season because we had so many injuries. There were like 17 from a 53 man roster that didn't play again. This is very normal turnover for the NFL.

"Shanahan was so bad that the he couldn't find superstars in free agency mid-season when picking from a pool of talent that is no longer in the NFL!"

2KBack
02-01-2011, 06:23 AM
I don't believe my post was disingenuous in any way. Sardonic, perhpas...



I have not mentioned coaching acumen, of Shanahan, McDaniels, or anyone else.



Which I still don't understand. How does one claim a 4-12 team is 'more talented' than an 8-8 team? Even if we accept the premise as true (for the sake of argument) - what difference does it make if it doesn't translate to on-field success? Isn't this the same argument Charger fans make year after year around midseason, and this board laughs at them for being 'the best 4-4 team of all time'?

I had a similar conversation with a friend of mine (Dallas fan). He wanted to talk about how much 'better off' Dallas was than Washington. I told him it was BS. How is a 6-10 Dallas 'much better off' than a 6-10 Washington?


I would think the simple explanation is that Shanahan is the superior gameday coach who was able to get more out of lesser talent

jhns
02-01-2011, 06:24 AM
You also have to factor in 2 years of drafts and 2 years of free agency if you want to go that route. I know for damn sure we wouldn't have wasted a 1st round pick on Moreno, and wouldn't have traded a future first for a CB.

Why argue with HAT. He is claiming Shanahan was just as bad as McDaniels. At what point did Shanahan ever get close to the second overall pick? That is what a full McDaniels roster does. Also, we had one of the healthiest teams this decade last season and McDAniels only got to 8-8. The year before and this past year saw a ton of injuries. McDaniels didn't do **** when faced with any adversity....

This organization has never picked in the top 2 of the NFL draft. This organization has never lost 12 games in an NFL season. This is on top of the losing streak records McDaniels set. Yeah, he was only a little worse than Shanahan!

McDaniels fans are pathetic.

DrFate
02-01-2011, 06:26 AM
I would think the simple explanation is that Shanahan is the superior gameday coach who was able to get more out of lesser talent

So let me make sure I understand the calculus, please:

Shanny + ****ty talent = 8 wins

McDaniels + more talent = 4 wins


But I HAVE to ask - how do you fire a HC worth AT LEAST 4 wins a year? :spit:

(lets just pretend I didn't say that)

Missouribronc
02-01-2011, 06:27 AM
Why argue with HAT. He is claiming Shanahan was just as bad as McDaniels. At what point did Shanahan ever get close to the second overall pick? That is what a full McDaniels roster does. Also, we had one of the healthiest teams this decade last season and McDAniels only got to 8-8. The year before and this past year saw a ton of injuries. McDaniels didn't do **** when faced with any adversity....

This organization has never picked in the top 2 of the NFL draft. This organization has never lost 12 games in an NFL season. This is on top of the losing streak records McDaniels set. Yeah, he was only a little worse than Shanahan!

McDaniels fans are pathetic.

Shanahan did a lot with lesser talent, especially at running back and linebacker. And when he left, that talent went to ****. It's not Shanahan's fault that McDaniels couldn't find the right talent to replace his ****ty talent. That means they both were ****ty at evaluating defensive talent.

Are you really going to deny that?

jhns
02-01-2011, 06:31 AM
So let me make sure I understand the calculus, please:

Shanny + ****ty talent = 8 wins

McDaniels + more talent = 4 wins


But I HAVE to ask - how do you fire a HC worth AT LEAST 4 wins a year? :spit:

(lets just pretend I didn't say that)

Exactly. These same people argue that it wasn't a mistake to fire Shanahan. He would have to be worth around 5-7 extra wins according to these guys because last years roster is "more talented"... 4 wins would be if they were the same.

2KBack
02-01-2011, 06:33 AM
So let me make sure I understand the calculus, please:

Shanny + ****ty talent = 8 wins

McDaniels + more talent = 4 wins


But I HAVE to ask - how do you fire a HC worth AT LEAST 4 wins a year? :spit:

(lets just pretend I didn't say that)

Because for all his gameday acumen he can't do it all by himself. He was so entrenched in all the aspects of running a team that his inadequacies in some areas negatively effected his genius in others. Honestly McD and Shanny pretty much has the same problems, but McD wasn't experienced enough to overcome it on gameday.

I look at it this way, Shanny was a gameday coach that would win your 4 games himself, but that was canceled out by 4 losses his personel and assistant coaching selections caused. Something had to give, and Shanahan was not giving up power.

jhns
02-01-2011, 06:34 AM
Shanahan did a lot with lesser talent, especially at running back and linebacker. And when he left, that talent went to ****. It's not Shanahan's fault that McDaniels couldn't find the right talent to replace his ****ty talent. That means they both were ****ty at evaluating defensive talent.

Are you really going to deny that?

They were both ****ty at it. Shanahan was better than McDaniels though. He (or his staff/the Goodmans) was much better at finding offensive talent than McDaniels.

DrFate
02-01-2011, 06:35 AM
I look at it this way, Shanny was a gameday coach that would win your 4 games himself, but that was canceled out by 4 losses his personel and assistant coaching selections caused. Something had to give, and Shanahan was not giving up power.

Fair enough

vancejohnson82
02-01-2011, 06:51 AM
So let me make sure I understand the calculus, please:

Shanny + ****ty talent = 8 wins

McDaniels + more talent = 4 wins


But I HAVE to ask - how do you fire a HC worth AT LEAST 4 wins a year? :spit:

(lets just pretend I didn't say that)

we just hired a coach who had 2 wins last year

just sayin...

baja
02-01-2011, 06:56 AM
I would think the simple explanation is that Shanahan is the superior gameday coach who was able to get more out of lesser talent

I said this it two different posts don't know how else to say it to get that point across. I think there is improved talent and the poor record reflects the fact that this talent was learning to play together in a new system with all new coaches. When you make wholesale changes like McD did it takes some time to play up to your capacity as a team but that dose not mean the individual talent is not there. Keep in mind we got a lot of young guys learning to play at the pro level that all have shown promise.

We got rid of two talented players with issues and got a boat load of picks for them. I think for the most part we made good picks time will tell but I believe we are improved talent wise. Only time will tell.

DrFate
02-01-2011, 07:03 AM
Keep in mind we got a lot of young guys learning to play at the pro level that all have shown promise.

We got rid of two talented players with issues and got a boat load of picks for them. I think for the most part we made good picks time will tell but I believe we are improved talent wise.

I give credit where it is due, and your persistence is admirable. That said - I don't see it. And I don't think most others see it.

Where you see good picks, I see trash. Moreno is a bust. Smith was a bust. Quinn/Quinn is a bust (one pick, one FA). Ayers is marginal. Thomas has shown some flashes, I'll grant. And Tebow is the $64k question for the entire league going into next year. I'm not sold on either of the rookie-to-OL-starters, I wouldn't be shocked to see both of them replaced next year.

Tebow has to be a franchise player and Thomas has to be an all star for these picks to even break even.

As has been said before - McDaniels took over a competent (solid?) offense and a terrible defense. He left the Broncos with question marks all along the offense and a terrible defense. I don't see the improvement you see.

jhns
02-01-2011, 07:04 AM
That is a horrible spin baja. This team is older than the 2008 team. All but 3 positions on the 2008 team were rookie to third year players. The defense had a new coach and new scheme, while being younger. The 2008 team was learning on the job just as much as this past years team.

McDaniels was a horrible game day coach though. At least you have one thing right.

Missouribronc
02-01-2011, 07:15 AM
They were both ****ty at it. Shanahan was better than McDaniels though. He (or his staff/the Goodmans) was much better at finding offensive talent than McDaniels.

That we'll have to judge in about five years. Bey Bey might be a star, and Brandon Lloyd had a better year this year than any receiver Shanahan drafted. Moreno might be more prolific than any back with the exception of, of course, Terrell Davis. Beadles and Walton could start for years along the offensive line. And Orton had a couple of good years, and if Tebow is who we think he could be, then I'd say McDaniels did just fine on the offensive side of the ball.

The defense is still the trouble spot, as it was under Shanahan. Shanahan had the Browncos, McDaniels brought in Vickerson, Williams and Bannan, the Fatcos. Shanahan gets the credit of drafting Dumervil, but to date, Dumervil's best season came under McDaniels.

The foresight Shanahan had to trade Portis for Champ Bailey and what would become Tatum Bell, can't be overlooked when evaluating the two. Alphonso Smith was a colossal ****up for McDaniels, but so was Willie Middlebrooks for Shanahan. For some reason, they both had a propensity for midget linebackers who over-run plays. Never could figure that out. Shanahan drafted Al Wilson and D.J. Williams, the two best linebackers Denver has had for the last 10 years, so he gets that credit.

But Goodman is a solid No. 2 corner (if Denver could get any pressure on the quarterback) and Dawkins, even though he's aging, is still a quality safety. Perrish Cox, if he can stay out of jail, could be a good No. 2 corner, and Sydquan might be the answer at nickel...

baja
02-01-2011, 07:44 AM
I give credit where it is due, and your persistence is admirable. That said - I don't see it. And I don't think most others see it.

Where you see good picks, I see trash. Moreno is a bust. Smith was a bust. Quinn/Quinn is a bust (one pick, one FA). Ayers is marginal. Thomas has shown some flashes, I'll grant. And Tebow is the $64k question for the entire league going into next year. I'm not sold on either of the rookie-to-OL-starters, I wouldn't be shocked to see both of them replaced next year.

Tebow has to be a franchise player and Thomas has to be an all star for these picks to even break even.

As has been said before - McDaniels took over a competent (solid?) offense and a terrible defense. He left the Broncos with question marks all along the offense and a terrible defense. I don't see the improvement you see.

Don't agree about Moreno I'll give ya Quinn the TE and the Smith pick but disagree to varying degrees on the rest. Guess we will have to agree to disagree. As I said in my previous post time will tell.

baja
02-01-2011, 07:47 AM
That is a horrible spin baja. This team is older than the 2008 team. All but 3 positions on the 2008 team were rookie to third year players. The defense had a new coach and new scheme, while being younger. The 2008 team was learning on the job just as much as this past years team.

McDaniels was a horrible game day coach though. At least you have one thing right.

I don't think that. That was the best quality he had. His big problem is he needs to learn to work with others better.

He made many of the first time HC mistakes he was too controlling. I'd love to know what went down between him and Nolan and I'd love to know what his part in SpyGate II was.

jhns
02-01-2011, 07:51 AM
I don't think that. That was the best quality he had. His big problem is he needs to learn to work with others better.

Wtf? So he is a good game day coach and improved the talent but the team was half as good because he didn't work with others well?

McDaniels fans aren't good with logic or facts.

jhns
02-01-2011, 07:58 AM
It isn't even debateable. McDaniels is a horrible game day coach. His formula for winning was worse than a kid playing Madden. He refused to develope a run game and would go away from it even when it was working. His idea of a good game plan was to let Kyle Orton, yes Kyle Orton, throw it 40 times without giving him help. It is pretty hard to justify saying that he knows what he is doing when he pretends Kyle Orton is Manning, Brady, or Brees...

Then there was the defense. He had it on the right track from the very start and still f'd it up. How do you turn the franchises worst ever defense into a top 10 defense and then back to even worse than the franchises worst ever defense? That doesn't even make sense. He couldn't couldn't even figure out that he was doing stuff right... It is almost like he didn't want to succeed...

strafen
02-01-2011, 08:00 AM
That we'll have to judge in about five years. Bey Bey might be a star, and Brandon Lloyd had a better year this year than any receiver Shanahan drafted. Moreno might be more prolific than any back with the exception of, of course, Terrell Davis. Beadles and Walton could start for years along the offensive line. And Orton had a couple of good years, and if Tebow is who we think he could be, then I'd say McDaniels did just fine on the offensive side of the ball.

The defense is still the trouble spot, as it was under Shanahan. Shanahan had the Browncos, McDaniels brought in Vickerson, Williams and Bannan, the Fatcos. Shanahan gets the credit of drafting Dumervil, but to date, Dumervil's best season came under McDaniels.

The foresight Shanahan had to trade Portis for Champ Bailey and what would become Tatum Bell, can't be overlooked when evaluating the two. Alphonso Smith was a colossal ****up for McDaniels, but so was Willie Middlebrooks for Shanahan. For some reason, they both had a propensity for midget linebackers who over-run plays. Never could figure that out. Shanahan drafted Al Wilson and D.J. Williams, the two best linebackers Denver has had for the last 10 years, so he gets that credit.

But Goodman is a solid No. 2 corner (if Denver could get any pressure on the quarterback) and Dawkins, even though he's aging, is still a quality safety. Perrish Cox, if he can stay out of jail, could be a good No. 2 corner, and Sydquan might be the answer at nickel...
Clearly McDaniels is way better coach thna future Hall of Famer Mike Shanahan. :welcome:

baja
02-01-2011, 08:00 AM
Wtf? So he is a good game day coach and improved the talent but the team was half as good because he didn't work with others well?

McDaniels fans aren't good with logic or facts.

OK I'm gonna do what so many others have do with you, ignore you. You're just a silly smart ass kid that brings nothing to this discussion board. See ya kid.

Missouribronc
02-01-2011, 08:01 AM
Clearly McDaniels is way better coach thna future Hall of Famer Mike Shanahan. :welcome:

Huh?

strafen
02-01-2011, 08:06 AM
OK I'm gonna do what so many others have do with you, ignore you. You're just a silly smart ass kid that brings nothing to this discussion board. See ya kid.
All you have to do is acknowledge the guy is right, he's been right for most of the time, but NOBODY here in the Mane will ever admit they were wrong when it comes down to a discussion with jhns.
You know you were wrong, but you will NEVER say it.
Don't feel bad, it's not just you alone.

Take a moment to digest what the man is saying, rather than trying to win the argument by berating and insulting the guy.
That doesn't win arguments. In his statement you've quoted him last, he is spot on.
Can't argue with that, bud!

Missouribronc
02-01-2011, 08:12 AM
All you have to do is acknowledge the guy is right, he's been right for most of the time, but NOBODY here in the Mane will ever admit they were wrong when it comes down to a discussion with jhns.
You know you were wrong, but you will NEVER say it.
Don't feel bad, it's not just you alone.

Take a moment to digest what the man is saying, rather than trying to win the argument by berating and insulting the guy.
That doesn't win arguments. In his statement you've quoted him last, he is spot on.
Can't argue with that, bud!

If Tebow is a great quarterback it pretty much discounts his entire argument.

vancejohnson82
02-01-2011, 08:15 AM
All you have to do is acknowledge the guy is right, he's been right for most of the time, but NOBODY here in the Mane will ever admit they were wrong when it comes down to a discussion with jhns.
You know you were wrong, but you will NEVER say it.
Don't feel bad, it's not just you alone.

Take a moment to digest what the man is saying, rather than trying to win the argument by berating and insulting the guy.
That doesn't win arguments. In his statement you've quoted him last, he is spot on.
Can't argue with that, bud!

no, I don't think that is the problem with his arguments....he didnt like McDaniels, his prediction (and wish) came true. The problem is that this is a discussion about Marshall and he litters the thread with McDaniels stuff...and he throws a blanket over the board like it breaks down to "McDaniels Fans vs. non-McDaniels fans"...there are varying degrees to people's opinions and you can like some of the stuff he did, but still acknowledge the era as a failure...that is where all discussion goes out the window with him and he just goes into that "You guys are silly" mode....

whatever, thats the nice thing about a message board...you can choose to interact with people or not. I sometimes enjoy engaging him in conversation because its entertaining, but you just cant expect to have a good back and forth

Rohirrim
02-01-2011, 08:17 AM
I guess we can expect that by this time next year, the Rams' offense will be ruined. We'll see.

strafen
02-01-2011, 08:41 AM
If Tebow is a great quarterback it pretty much discounts his entire argument.I think Tebow will be a great QB, but that would not make Mcdaniels a good personnel guy or HC, will it?

strafen
02-01-2011, 08:42 AM
I guess we can expect that by this time next year, the Rams' offense will be ruined. We'll see.I'm sure the Rams running backs are not looking forward to their season... Ha!

DrFate
02-01-2011, 08:46 AM
Don't agree about Moreno I'll give ya Quinn the TE and the Smith pick but disagree to varying degrees on the rest. Guess we will have to agree to disagree. As I said in my previous post time will tell.

To me they are pretty clear.

The shelf life of an NFL running back, on average, is about 4 years. Based on that number, Moreno's half done with his playing career. He's done nothing. This guy was the #12 overall pick - he wasn't some Shanahan reclamation project. I don't think that even you feel he's an every down, #1 back in this league. At best he's a change of pace guy. That ROI is awful. Hence, my bust evaluation.

Ayers, going into this third season, (#18 overall pick) has 58 career tackles and 1.5 sacks (according to ESPN.com). Compare this to somebody like Orakpo (#13 overall pick), who has 19.5 sacks in that same span. You simply can't have 1st round guys spend YEARS doing nothing and dismiss it as 'learning to play'. RBs and pass rushers don't get the same 'learning time't that is afforded to QBs.

And we won't even mention the midget cornerback who cost a first round pick...

The line play, with the addition of Beadles/Walton, was pretty bad. They couldn't run the ball at all. (And yes, Clady was dinged up) Recent evaluations (like the one in the Post) didn't even rank them as full-time long-term starters.

Thomas has shown flashes in his rookie year, and Tebow is Tebow.

All told - a lot of picks turned into a whole lot of bust. If Thomas and Tebow shine, it will hide some of this draft record. I will agree with you regarding these two - time will tell.

DrFate
02-01-2011, 08:48 AM
I'm sure the Rams running backs are not looking forward to their season... Ha!

I've already told my friends - there is no way I'd touch Stephen Jackson in a fantasy league before round 10. Not with McDaniels calling the plays.

jhns
02-01-2011, 08:49 AM
OK I'm gonna do what so many others have do with you, ignore you. You're just a silly smart ass kid that brings nothing to this discussion board. See ya kid.

This is only like the third time now. I'm very heart broken.

I bring nothing as you don't back anything you say. You just cry and troll even when I try to help you prove what you say. Now you are crying because I am a smartass?

Classic example of a McDaniels fan.

jhns
02-01-2011, 08:51 AM
If Tebow is a great quarterback it pretty much discounts his entire argument.

LOL

One player > a team. That is why Manning has 15 SBs.

jhns
02-01-2011, 08:54 AM
I guess we can expect that by this time next year, the Rams' offense will be ruined. We'll see.

Did they give him control over anything? I doubt his defensive minded coach will allow him to ditch the run game. I doubt he let's him trade Bradford and Steven Jackson.... I don't get your point.

vancejohnson82
02-01-2011, 09:00 AM
LOL

One player > a team. That is why Manning has 15 SBs.

once again, you contradict yourself....the reason Marshall and Cutler were shipped out was because they were taking away from the team mentality and McD thought we could win without them...

you can't play both sides of the fence on everything...so what is it

TheChamp24
02-01-2011, 09:03 AM
That we'll have to judge in about five years. Bey Bey might be a star, and Brandon Lloyd had a better year this year than any receiver Shanahan drafted. Moreno might be more prolific than any back with the exception of, of course, Terrell Davis. Beadles and Walton could start for years along the offensive line. And Orton had a couple of good years, and if Tebow is who we think he could be, then I'd say McDaniels did just fine on the offensive side of the ball.

Thomas showed some flashes, but seemed to always be injured and a certain WR who went after him performed way better. I hope Thomas progresses to be a #1 WR, but I doubt it.
Brandon Lloyd had a terrific year that I don't see him repeating.
Moreno might be more prolific than any other RB besides TD for us? What are you smoking? 2 games going over 100 yards rushing, and both came against the Chiefs. Not to mention how often he has gotten hurt. For the 12th overall pick, he's a bust.
Beadles and Walton hopefully progress.
The thing is though with that he did fine on the offensive side of the ball is that HE DIDN'T HAVE TO TOUCH THE OFFENSE. He tore it up and let it sink and tried to rebuild it.

jhns
02-01-2011, 09:05 AM
once again, you contradict yourself....the reason Marshall and Cutler were shipped out was because they were taking away from the team mentality and McD thought we could win without them...

you can't play both sides of the fence on everything...so what is it

What does McDaniels failed "team mentality" crap have to do with anything I have said? I get that McDaniels thought he could win without him. The point is that he didn't know what he was doing and it is very obvious he couldn't win without them. So again, I don't get what you are saying.

vancejohnson82
02-01-2011, 09:09 AM
What does McDaniels failed "team mentality" crap have to do with anything I have said? I get that McDaniels thought he could win without him. The point is that he didn't know what he was doing and it is very obvious he couldn't win without them. So again, I don't get what you are saying.

ok...someone said that if Tebow pans out, that McDaniels tenure here wouldnt have actually "destroyed" the franchise

your counter was along the lines of "one player doesnt make a team"

however, you pine for Cutler because (hopefully) you thought he would've put this team on another level. But he's only one player

jhns
02-01-2011, 09:18 AM
ok...someone said that if Tebow pans out, that McDaniels tenure here wouldnt have actually "destroyed" the franchise

your counter was along the lines of "one player doesnt make a team"

however, you pine for Cutler because (hopefully) you thought he would've put this team on another level. But he's only one player

My argument has been about a LOT more than just Cutler. Your spin is weak. Shoot, I think the biggest loss was Nolan, not any one player. McDaniels couldn't even work with the one guy that would have saved him. Cutler is a focal point because it is that situation that highlights all of McDaniels shortcommings. It showed he didn't work well with others. It showed that he either didn't know talent or that he was willing to cut off his nose in spite of his face. Basically, that situation showed he had no clue how to be a GM/head coach.

Anyways, the Tebow argument is weak. Even if all of McDaniels offensive players pan out, we were still set back about 5-6 years on offense. That is not a success... He needed to build the defense and we are worse than we were before he came. This is not a success... Bowlen fired McDaniels after 1.75 seasons. Bowlen sure doesn't agree that he was successful at anything...

vancejohnson82
02-01-2011, 09:32 AM
My argument has been about a LOT more than just Cutler. Your spin is weak. Shoot, I think the biggest loss was Nolan, not any one player. McDaniels couldn't even work with the one guy that would have saved him. Cutler is a focal point because it is that situation that highlights all of McDaniels shortcommings. It showed he didn't work well with others. It showed that he either didn't know talent or that he was willing to cut off his nose in spite of his face. Basically, that situation showed he had no clue how to be a GM/head coach.

Anyways, the Tebow argument is weak. Even if all of McDaniels offensive players pan out, we were still set back about 5-6 years on offense. That is not a success... He needed to build the defense and we are worse than we were before he came. This is not a success... Bowlen fired McDaniels after 1.75 seasons. Bowlen sure doesn't agree that he was successful at anything...

5-6 years? cmon dude

if Tebow is solid, we break even on the QB change...hell, i think Orton wasn't even THAT big of a dropoff from Cutler

Lloyd replaced Marshall and actually opens up the offense a bit more than B-Marsh did when he was here and if D. Thomas works out we have more talent at WR than when he started out here

RB we are pretty much still full of question marks....Hillis is obviously a mistake here but i think that had a lot to do with over-assuming who Moreno was

the Nolan loss was defnitely difficult but when Shanny was here we were blowing through DCs too...

I think we agree that personnel-wise the defense was in shambles and is pretty much still full of holes

so really the only HUGE mistake I see here is the Hillis trade...i wish i knew more about what happened between Nolan and McD, but I think its safe to say that a HUUUGE part of McDs problem was the inability to give control to anyone else...something any HC needs to do

I'm not spinning anything here...we just disagree that this team is a half a decade set back

HAT
02-01-2011, 10:01 AM
Why argue with HAT. He is claiming Shanahan was just as bad as McDaniels.

No, I'm claiming that He was 2 games better than McD over the same time frame (28 games) that immediately preceded McD.

Do you disagree with that?

jhns
02-01-2011, 10:32 AM
No, I'm claiming that He was 2 games better than McD over the same time frame (28 games) that immediately preceded McD.

Do you disagree with that?

Yes I do. You are cherry picking stats. What was Shanahans record for his second to last season and first 12 games of his last season here? That is working with the same criteria....

Inkana7
02-01-2011, 10:50 AM
Silly Cutler fans.

HAT
02-01-2011, 11:03 AM
Yes I do. You are cherry picking stats. What was Shanahans record for his second to last season and first 12 games of his last season here? That is working with the same criteria....

Don't be (more of) an idiot. It's a simple time-line. McD coached 28 games here...to negligibly worse results than his immediate predecessor.

This is not speculation or opinion.

Sorry your "HOF" coach and "Franchise" QB that had well entrenched systems only produced 2 more wins than the 33 year old rookie coach & a cast off QB while the rest of the team was learning a new system.

And so as not to count partial seasons, I've already conceded that Shanny goes to +3 if you want to include the Studesville games.

jhns
02-01-2011, 11:27 AM
Don't be (more of) an idiot. It's a simple time-line. McD coached 28 games here...to negligibly worse results than his immediate predecessor.

This is not speculation or opinion.

Sorry your "HOF" coach and "Franchise" QB that had well entrenched systems only produced 2 more wins than the 33 year old rookie coach & a cast off QB while the rest of the team was learning a new system.

And so as not to count partial seasons, I've already conceded that Shanny goes to +3 if you want to include the Studesville games.

Negligable? LOL

This franchise has never had the second overall pick in the NFL draft. This franchise has never lost 12 games in a season. McDaniels set all time records for Bronco suck and you say he was only a little worse than Shanahan? The guy who never came close to being this bad? This is why McDaniels fans are considered a joke.

You using the games that you did is also quite the joke. You are hating on Shanahan because he wasn't bad enough to get fired during the season. This team has struggled late under both coaches. You would fail any statistics class in the world trying to pull data from two completely unrelated time frames like that....

vancejohnson82
02-01-2011, 11:31 AM
Negligable? LOL

This franchise has never had the second overall pick in the NFL draft. This franchise has never lost 12 games in a season. McDaniels set all time records for Bronco suck and you say he was only a little worse than Shanahan? The guy who never came close to being this bad? This is why McDaniels fans are considered a joke.

You using the games that you did is also quite the joke. You are hating on Shanahan because he wasn't bad enough to get fired during the season. This team has struggled late under both coaches. You would fail any statistics class in the world trying to pull data from two completely unrelated time frames like that....

don't say NEVER because you sound like an idiot...this team was a bottom feeder for the longest time...and actually only won 2 games with Reeves one year...SHanahan had a GREAT run, but you're one of these spoiled fans that probably joined up with the team after the Super Bowl years and had never had to experience any kind of losing

Garcia Bronco
02-01-2011, 11:32 AM
Shanahan was going to trade Marshall away. He is a head case and inadvertantly caused the death of teammate. He's a cancer and not our problem anymore.

jhns
02-01-2011, 11:35 AM
don't say NEVER because you sound like an idiot...this team was a bottom feeder for the longest time...and actually only won 2 games with Reeves one year...SHanahan had a GREAT run, but you're one of these spoiled fans that probably joined up with the team after the Super Bowl years and had never had to experience any kind of losing

I sound like an idiot? Ok, what year did this team pick in the top 2 of the NFL draft? What NFL season did this team have 12 losses?

These are facts. They are not opinion. Only a McDaniels fan would consider someone an idiot for providing facts...

vancejohnson82
02-01-2011, 11:54 AM
I sound like an idiot? Ok, what year did this team pick in the top 2 of the NFL draft? What NFL season did this team have 12 losses?

These are facts. They are not opinion. Only a McDaniels fan would consider someone an idiot for providing facts...

the team has struggled in the past...mightily, I might add..

and we had the #2 pick in 1962

jhns
02-01-2011, 12:05 PM
the team has struggled in the past...mightily, I might add..

and we had the #2 pick in 1962

That #2 pick was not in the NFL draft. While they were bad that season, I'm pretty sure the picks weren't even determined by record. They had a lottery system similar to the NBA in that league. That may be incorrect though, I haven't read about that league for a long time.

Yes, this franchise did struggle early. They still were never this bad in the NFL. This is proven by the fact that they never once had a top 2 pick in the NFL draft before this year. This is why it is a complete joke to even try comparing McDaniels to Shanahans worst years. Shanahans worst years were great when compared to what McDaniels just did.

vancejohnson82
02-01-2011, 12:14 PM
nobody was comparing what Shanahan did ...his record and rings speak for itself

its unfair for you to say that we never had 12 losses in a year before though because it was difficult to do before hte 16 game season was introduced. The team is at one of its all-time lows, I just think it can be turned around rather quickly and I don't think the cupboard is quite as bare as far as talent as some may think

bronco militia
02-01-2011, 12:17 PM
nobody was comparing what Shanahan did ...his record and rings speak for itself

its unfair for you to say that we never had 12 losses in a year before though because it was difficult to do before hte 16 game season was introduced. The team is at one of its all-time lows, I just think it can be turned around rather quickly and I don't think the cupboard is quite as bare as far as talent as some may think

it's not unfair to say the broncos had their worst season in franchise history

jhns
02-01-2011, 12:37 PM
nobody was comparing what Shanahan did ...his record and rings speak for itself

its unfair for you to say that we never had 12 losses in a year before though because it was difficult to do before hte 16 game season was introduced. The team is at one of its all-time lows, I just think it can be turned around rather quickly and I don't think the cupboard is quite as bare as far as talent as some may think

HAT just finished saying that McDaniels results were negligibly worse than Shanahans last seasons. This is completely false as I have pointed out. Shanahan never came close to this kind of failure and it is very disrespectful to say he has. Shanahan is a Broncos great. Why not start pointing to Ortons stats and say Elway was only negligibly better. It would work the same in the context of his argument. Just look at their stats!

Anyways, if you don't agree with him, don't argue with my rebuttal to his posts.

It would be dishonest to only use that 12 game stat as we were in the NFL for some time when it was only 12 game seasons. This is why I use the fact about never having drafted in the top 2 of the NFL draft with that stat. That 12 game stat isn't a bad one to use when comparing to Shanahan though. Shanahan only coached this team in 16 game NFL seasons. He never once was close to this bad. He was here for a long time, so it isn't like he didn't have a chance to be this bad...

HAT
02-01-2011, 01:24 PM
HAT just finished saying that McDaniels results were negligibly worse than Shanahans last seasons. This is completely false as I have pointed out. Shanahan never came close to this kind of failure and it is very disrespectful to say he has. Shanahan is a Broncos great. Why not start pointing to Ortons stats and say Elway was only negligibly better. It would work the same in the context of his argument. Just look at their stats!



***SIGH***

The NFL is a vastly different game when looking at how individual positions compile individual stats in the 80's vs. the 00's so I really have no idea WTF you are talking about with this Orton/Elway garbage.

Shanahan was awesome in the 90's....2007 & 2008 however, he was only slightly better than a 33 year old rookie and a RB coach interim were in 2009, 2010. Fact. I'll give him a slight break though since he had #6 anchoring him down. :welcome:

jhns
02-01-2011, 01:33 PM
***SIGH***

The NFL is a vastly different game when looking at how individual positions compile individual stats in the 80's vs. the 00's so I really have no idea WTF you are talking about with this Orton/Elway garbage.

Shanahan was awesome in the 90's....2007 & 2008 however, he was only slightly better than a 33 year old rookie and a RB coach interim were in 2009, 2010. Fact. I'll give him a slight break though since he had #6 anchoring him down. :welcome:

Elway played in the 90s as well. In fact, wasn't there only one season in the 90s that he didn't play? The stats don't lie HAT. Why would you spin this?

LOL

McDaniels fans are just getting ridiculous. Ok, that is a lie. They have always been ridiculous. McDaniels led the worst season in Broncos franchise history. Shanahan never once had a season even close to the worst in franchise history. These are facts. You have lame opinions that don't make sense.

HAT
02-01-2011, 01:57 PM
McDaniels led the worst season in Broncos franchise history.


Really? When? The only full season he coached they were 8-8.

Then he coached a partial season to a 3-9 record....Are you saying that Denver has never had a 3-9 record over a 12 game span? Interesting.

Let's just save the board some trouble......

I'll say:

Shanahan sucks and will never build the Redskins into contention. In fact, the only way he will ever be relevant in the NFL again is if he inherits a team right on the cusp. (Not that's there's anything wrong with that.)

And.....

Cutler is a mediocre QB with a loser's mentality and getting rid of him was the best thing to Happen to the Broncos in 5 years.

Now....You come back and say McD is the worst coach ever, will never get another HC gig & Orton is a noodle arm statue who can't elevate those around him.

Then we'll laugh at our monitors over what a complete idiot the other one is and I'll go back to scrolling past your posts.

Deal ???

jhns
02-01-2011, 02:43 PM
I like it HAT. That saves about 4-5 pages of arguing.

theStifmeister
02-01-2011, 03:09 PM
the classic debate, are offense isn't set back 5-6 years, we get a good runningback to compliment tebow, and revamp this defense, were back in the playoff hunt. Did you see those posers that reside in Kansas City? I knew they were posers with a 10-6 record. We've got coaches that can get along together, and with the players. I have no worries

montrose
02-01-2011, 07:41 PM
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Archer81
02-01-2011, 07:44 PM
the classic debate, are offense isn't set back 5-6 years, we get a good runningback to compliment tebow, and revamp this defense, were back in the playoff hunt. Did you see those posers that reside in Kansas City? I knew they were posers with a 10-6 record. We've got coaches that can get along together, and with the players. I have no worries


Ah, newbies. So refreshing.


:Broncos:

maven
02-01-2011, 08:33 PM
I'll stick to the OP's post

Two words:

Dan Henning