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srphoenix
01-26-2011, 11:23 AM
Interesting interview posted at pft involving Hurney the Panthers GM. Basically said that their 2 positions of highest need are QB followed by DT. Article states that:

Hurney said the Panthers’ No. 2 need is defensive tackle, and he said he’s already gathering information on Auburn’s Nick Fairley.

“At this point, we have to do more research,” Hurney said. “But obviously he’s an impact player inside. . . . I think when you’re picking high, it needs to be an impact position and an impact player.”

Here's the link: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/26/quarterback-is-panthers-top-priority-but-fairley-may-be-top-pick/

If this is the case the decision is then between Peterson and Bowers and with Ayers being a first round pick 2 years ago you almost have to take Peterson unless Ayers could play another position. Unless we stay in a 3-4, but then Bowers might be too small to play defensive end. Peterson is looking more and more like the pick even with Bailey most likely returning and the higher chance that Cox avoid prison or suspension.

2KBack
01-26-2011, 11:25 AM
Expect the faces of the top 5-10 picks to change in the next several months...you don't have to choose from those 3 guys alone

srphoenix
01-26-2011, 11:26 AM
thats true, but at this point those 3 are the most elite players in the draft, while it might change all we can do at this point is speculate based on the information available.

Killericon
01-26-2011, 11:28 AM
Expect the faces of the top 5-10 picks to change in the next several months...you don't have to choose from those 3 guys alone

Fairley could be the next Alan Branch.

Rohirrim
01-26-2011, 11:29 AM
It seems to me more and more teams are going with multiple fronts. There's no reason Fox won't take Bowers, IMO.

cmhargrove
01-26-2011, 11:30 AM
Are you fairley sure this is true?

PRBronco
01-26-2011, 11:30 AM
Interesting interview posted at pft involving Hurney the Panthers GM. Basically said that their 2 positions of highest need are QB followed by DT. Article states that:

Hurney said the Panthers’ No. 2 need is defensive tackle, and he said he’s already gathering information on Auburn’s Nick Fairley.

“At this point, we have to do more research,” Hurney said. “But obviously he’s an impact player inside. . . . I think when you’re picking high, it needs to be an impact position and an impact player.”

Here's the link: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/26/quarterback-is-panthers-top-priority-but-fairley-may-be-top-pick/

If this is the case the decision is then between Peterson and Bowers and with Ayers being a first round pick 2 years ago you almost have to take Peterson unless Ayers could play another position. Unless we stay in a 3-4, but then Bowers might be too small to play defensive end. Peterson is looking more and more like the pick even with Bailey most likely returning and the higher chance that Cox avoid prison or suspension.

Flawed logic.

footstepsfrom#27
01-26-2011, 11:34 AM
Interesting interview posted at pft involving Hurney the Panthers GM. Basically said that their 2 positions of highest need are QB followed by DT. Article states that:

Hurney said the Panthers’ No. 2 need is defensive tackle, and he said he’s already gathering information on Auburn’s Nick Fairley.

“At this point, we have to do more research,” Hurney said. “But obviously he’s an impact player inside. . . . I think when you’re picking high, it needs to be an impact position and an impact player.”

Here's the link: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/26/quarterback-is-panthers-top-priority-but-fairley-may-be-top-pick/

If this is the case the decision is then between Peterson and Bowers and with Ayers being a first round pick 2 years ago you almost have to take Peterson unless Ayers could play another position. Unless we stay in a 3-4, but then Bowers might be too small to play defensive end. Peterson is looking more and more like the pick even with Bailey most likely returning and the higher chance that Cox avoid prison or suspension.
Would love Peterson here, but I don't think anybody can predict this early what they'll do because these players change positions so much. It wouldn't surprise me if we saw the Mizzou kid rocket up to #1, or we could see Denver trade down a few spots. With Luck out of the draft, it's anybody's guess I suppose.

Beantown Bronco
01-26-2011, 11:34 AM
Number of things I hear out of an organization's mouth before the draft and believe = zero.

Crushaholic
01-26-2011, 11:34 AM
We'll see what the mood of the Panthers is after the combine. Even if we miss on Fairley, we'll still be able to get a top-notch defensive player...:lombardi:

BroncosMT
01-26-2011, 11:37 AM
Number of things I hear out of an organization's mouth before the draft and believe = zero.

This

bronco0608
01-26-2011, 11:40 AM
I expect JJ Watt from Wisconsin to really shoot up draft boards and be the 2nd or 3rd defensive lineman selected in this draft.

That guy is a beast. He's huge, has a relentless motor, and put up amazing stats.

Watt is a top 5 guy and I wouldn't even mind us taking him with the 2nd pick.

JJ WATT BANDWAGON. Get on board.

bronco0608
01-26-2011, 11:41 AM
Fairley could be the next Alan Branch.

Peterson could be the next Willie Middlebrooks.

I heard he has some bad wheels.

schaaf
01-26-2011, 11:42 AM
http://www.6magazineonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Patrick-Peterson1.jpg

Missouribronc
01-26-2011, 11:45 AM
Are you fairley sure this is true?

You've been waiting to say that, haven't you... :afro:

Zoobie
01-26-2011, 11:46 AM
Its a trapppppp/smokescreeeeen

BroncosMT
01-26-2011, 11:48 AM
http://www.6magazineonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Patrick-Peterson1.jpg

Didn't I read somewhere that we met with Peterson already?

ColoradoDarin
01-26-2011, 11:48 AM
Its a trapppppp/smokescreeeeen

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q227/dhaus5650/tarp.jpg

oubronco
01-26-2011, 11:50 AM
I believe nothing until Goodell walks up and announces it at the draft

schaaf
01-26-2011, 11:51 AM
Didn't I read somewhere that we met with Peterson already?

I read that too, I think we were supposed to meet with him yesterday or today

PRBronco
01-26-2011, 11:51 AM
I believe nothing until Goodell walks up and announces it at the draft

Or rather, I believe nothing until they spoil it by showing the player talking on his cell while Goodell walks up.

srphoenix
01-26-2011, 11:53 AM
Number of things I hear out of an organization's mouth before the draft and believe = zero.

good point.

bronco militia
01-26-2011, 11:56 AM
If this is the case the decision is then between Peterson and Bowers and with Ayers being a first round pick 2 years ago you almost have to take Peterson unless Ayers could play another position. .

what?

CEH
01-26-2011, 11:57 AM
Interesting interview posted at pft involving Hurney the Panthers GM. Basically said that their 2 positions of highest need are QB followed by DT. Article states that:

Hurney said the Panthers’ No. 2 need is defensive tackle, and he said he’s already gathering information on Auburn’s Nick Fairley.

“At this point, we have to do more research,” Hurney said. “But obviously he’s an impact player inside. . . . I think when you’re picking high, it needs to be an impact position and an impact player.”

Here's the link: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/26/quarterback-is-panthers-top-priority-but-fairley-may-be-top-pick/

If this is the case the decision is then between Peterson and Bowers and with Ayers being a first round pick 2 years ago you almost have to take Peterson unless Ayers could play another position. Unless we stay in a 3-4, but then Bowers might be too small to play defensive end. Peterson is looking more and more like the pick even with Bailey most likely returning and the higher chance that Cox avoid prison or suspension.

Ayers is irrelevant to the conversation. If he had shown to be a person that is not upgradable then I'd say sure we are set but I don't think that is the case right now. Jury is still out on Ayers

In regards to Cox, he was a 5th round pick so I don't think he's plays into the equation either because if he does then why can't we get a secondary person later on just like Cox. To draft Peterson because Cox is going to jail doesn't seem like a valid argument for drafting Peterson


I think the pick with be front seven or trade down

primetime714
01-26-2011, 12:00 PM
I think at 2 our choices are (in order of preference):

1) Fairley or Bowers (whoever Carolina doesn't pick)- pick one of them if they are the real deal, so if we feel like Bowers is a double digit sack guy year in and year out take him. If not....
2) Trade down- there's likely to be a QB (Gabbert) that teams really like if Carolina is going DL with the first pick teams may want to trade up ahead of teams like Buffalo or Cincy who could be looking for a QB. Trading down to 5 with Arizona could be a great opportunity to pick up an early second and another pick. And if we traded down to 5 there's still a good chance we'd end up with a guy like Peterson or an impact DL like Dareus.
3) Peterson- I only take Peterson at 2 if the team isn't confident in Bowers and if there are no good trade down options.

I'm a big fan of the trade down option but I fully support taking a DL at 2 if the team is confident in that player and feels they'll be a real difference maker at the next level. I'd be ok with Peterson because I feel like he's a rather safe bet to be a good player, but the position is lower impact and a lower priority in terms of needs.

footstepsfrom#27
01-26-2011, 12:03 PM
I expect JJ Watt from Wisconsin to really shoot up draft boards and be the 2nd or 3rd defensive lineman selected in this draft.

That guy is a beast. He's huge, has a relentless motor, and put up amazing stats.

Watt is a top 5 guy and I wouldn't even mind us taking him with the 2nd pick.

JJ WATT BANDWAGON. Get on board.
Wow...that's a pretty bold prediction. I like it when people aren't afraid to go out on a limb.

chrisp
01-26-2011, 12:35 PM
I could be wrong, but i think its pretty rare that a team trades down from a top-5 pick. Usually when it does happen its a flip-flop with the team picking next or something like that, otherwise the ammo required is immense..

So I'm not averse to trading down, but I don't think its going to happen.

Soooo, I think we will have a genuine dilemma if Fairley goes, becuase we need a DT in the worst way - the real weakness in our defense is not at end....are any of the other guys worth the pick though?

primetime714
01-26-2011, 12:44 PM
I could be wrong, but i think its pretty rare that a team trades down from a top-5 pick. Usually when it does happen its a flip-flop with the team picking next or something like that, otherwise the ammo required is immense..

So I'm not averse to trading down, but I don't think its going to happen.

Soooo, I think we will have a genuine dilemma if Fairley goes, becuase we need a DT in the worst way - the real weakness in our defense is not at end....are any of the other guys worth the pick though?

Its hard to say that DE is not a weakness. Sure Doom when healthy is great (regardless of scheme), but Ayers hasn't played in a 4-3 in the NFL. To assume he would be a solid starter is assuming too much.

Regarding a trade down I think Arizona would be the most likely option. As you mentioned the cost to trade into the top 5 can be immense, so while a team like Dallas may want Peterson do they have the ammo and are they willing to give away the picks needed to move up that far? I doubt it. Arizona though could move up without giving up a ton to do so. And if they think a QB like Gabbert is the real deal it would be worth for them to do it. Its no secret that they're desperate for QB help both for now and the future.

ICON
01-26-2011, 12:55 PM
Carolina Panthers

Fairley satisfies the greatest need, and I think there's a much greater chance he's the No. 1 pick in the wake of his tremendous Co-National Championship performance.

Da'Quan Bowers Maybe they'll look past the bad tape and prior inconsistency, and instead see Bowers as the next Julius Peppers.

ICON
01-26-2011, 12:56 PM
Didn't I read somewhere that we met with Peterson already?

According to James Varney of the Times-Picayune, Peterson has met in Mobile with the Carolina Panthers and Denver Broncos. They hold picks one and two, respectively.

Tony Pauline of TFY Draft Insider reports that the Cowboys may try and move up in the draft to go after Peterson.

Dedhed
01-26-2011, 12:57 PM
I like it when people aren't afraid to go out on a limb.I like it when people make fools of themselves with idiotic predictions.

Tombstone RJ
01-26-2011, 12:59 PM
Number of things I hear out of an organization's mouth before the draft and believe = zero.

this, it's all smoke and mirrors at this point. I'm betting the Panthers would love to trade down but they know in order to do that some other team has to love Fairley or Peterson or another player. There's no Sam Bradford or Suh in this draft so it kinda sucks for Carolina...

mkporter
01-26-2011, 01:00 PM
I could be wrong, but i think its pretty rare that a team trades down from a top-5 pick. Usually when it does happen its a flip-flop with the team picking next or something like that, otherwise the ammo required is immense..

I think the bigger issue with trades in the top 5 is that the $$$ you have to pay for the contract was ridiculous. If they get a rookie salary cap in place before the draft then trades could become more commonplace. We'll see.

ICON
01-26-2011, 01:00 PM
I could really see the Cowgirls trade a bunch of picks for Peterson.

Tombstone RJ
01-26-2011, 01:01 PM
According to James Varney of the Times-Picayune, Peterson has met in Mobile with the Carolina Panthers and Denver Broncos. They hold picks one and two, respectively.

Tony Pauline of TFY Draft Insider reports that the Cowboys may try and move up in the draft to go after Peterson.

Oh, please make it happen Xman!

srphoenix
01-26-2011, 01:01 PM
that would definitely shake things up, the question is if they are that in love with the guy do they move to 1 to make sure they get him or do they move to 2 and hope carolina doesn't.

Like the other poster said, with the rookie draft scale teams may opt to move up more readily.

Broncojef
01-26-2011, 01:08 PM
Build your team from the inside out....build your team from the inside out...

Agamemnon
01-26-2011, 01:11 PM
How is DT Carolina's greatest need after QB? I don't get that. They had the worst offense in the league last season while being tied for 6th in yards per play on defense (their overall ranking is misleading due to always being on the field). This is kind of insane to me...

PRBronco
01-26-2011, 01:13 PM
According to James Varney of the Times-Picayune, Peterson has met in Mobile with the Carolina Panthers and Denver Broncos. They hold picks one and two, respectively.

Tony Pauline of TFY Draft Insider reports that the Cowboys may try and move up in the draft to go after Peterson.

Wait till he runs his predicted 4.2 at the combine! The Cryptkeeper will make a whole new pact with the devil to get him.

NFLBRONCO
01-26-2011, 01:16 PM
I'd be shocked if QB isn't #1 pick

srphoenix
01-26-2011, 01:21 PM
I'd be shocked if QB isn't #1 pick

which QB in this draft is qualified? Gabbert's ranked the highest QB of the class but he sure isn't a number 1 overall pick in my mind.

meangene
01-26-2011, 01:25 PM
I expect JJ Watt from Wisconsin to really shoot up draft boards and be the 2nd or 3rd defensive lineman selected in this draft.

That guy is a beast. He's huge, has a relentless motor, and put up amazing stats.

Watt is a top 5 guy and I wouldn't even mind us taking him with the 2nd pick.

JJ WATT BANDWAGON. Get on board.

I'm going to second this motion on Watt. Also, if Carolina really thinks QB is their greatest need then I think Gabbert is going to shoot up the draft charts as well. It's all still very fluid...

Killericon
01-26-2011, 01:25 PM
Peterson could be the next Willie Middlebrooks.

I heard he has some bad wheels.

I didn't mean in terms of performance. I meant in terms of a guy who was expected to go in the top 10 who suddenly(and for no apparent reason) plummeted down the boards in the week before the draft.

PRBronco
01-26-2011, 01:25 PM
which QB in this draft is qualified? Gabbert's ranked the highest QB of the class but he sure isn't a number 1 overall pick in my mind.

Never underestimate the power of pre draft hype. Bowers could pull a Mario Williams and blow the combine away, or Locker could light up the Senior Bowl. Or Patrick Peterson could intercept a Scud missile. It's way too early to know whose hype train will take off :)

oubronco
01-26-2011, 01:28 PM
Never underestimate the power of pre draft hype. Bowers could pull a Mario Williams and blow the combine away, or Locker could light up the Senior Bowl. Or Patrick Peterson could intercept a Scud missile. It's way too early to know whose hype train will take off :)

Locker has looked like crap in practices. He screwed the pooch by not coming out last year and he lost millions

PRBronco
01-26-2011, 01:43 PM
Locker has looked like crap in practices. He screwed the pooch by not coming out last year and he lost millions

Everyone knows that, I'm just saying, if he were to suddenly light up the Senior Bowl game, omg! Gotta have Jake Locker! He has a cannon! Omg intangibles!

bronco0608
01-26-2011, 01:46 PM
I like it when people make fools of themselves with idiotic predictions.

Tell us again how the Jets shut down the Patriots in the patriots by playing man to man. Hilarious!

Bronco Boy
01-26-2011, 01:47 PM
How is DT Carolina's greatest need after QB? I don't get that. They had the worst offense in the league last season while being tied for 6th in yards per play on defense (their overall ranking is misleading due to always being on the field). This is kind of insane to me...

Yeah, I mean you probably know a lot more than their GM about what their team needs are.

bronco0608
01-26-2011, 01:48 PM
I didn't mean in terms of performance. I meant in terms of a guy who was expected to go in the top 10 who suddenly(and for no apparent reason) plummeted down the boards in the week before the draft.

Highly doubtful. Branch only had two sacks his senior season and is built like a nose tackle. So he wasn't a gap penetrating 4-3 tackle, and people didn't view him as 1st round grade NT.

Comparing apples to oranges here imo.

PRBronco
01-26-2011, 01:52 PM
Highly doubtful. Branch only had two sacks his senior season and is built like a nose tackle. So he wasn't a gap penetrating 4-3 tackle, and people didn't view him as 1st round grade NT.

Comparing apples to oranges here imo.

Branch was viewed as a top pick that year before people actually started talking to him and found out he was retarded. Pretty sure he's on the cover of my draft magazine from that year.

bronco0608
01-26-2011, 02:01 PM
Branch was viewed as a top pick that year before people actually started talking to him and found out he was retarded. Pretty sure he's on the cover of my draft magazine from that year.

Branch never put up stats to warrant even a 2nd round selection, much less to be a cover boy for a draft magazine.

Dude is huge, no doubt, but strictly in a NT sense. He was never dominant.

They might have hoped he would dominate, but he never did.

His entire college career he might have had three sacks.

Inkana7
01-26-2011, 02:05 PM
I could really see the Cowgirls trade a bunch of picks for Peterson.

The 9th pick + others? sign me up.

schaaf
01-26-2011, 02:13 PM
If Dallas was willing to trade up to number 2 I would be completely for that. I don't see them being able to move up that far though

PRBronco
01-26-2011, 02:14 PM
Branch never put up stats to warrant even a 2nd round selection, much less to be a cover boy for a draft magazine.

Dude is huge, no doubt, but strictly in a NT sense. He was never dominant.

They might have hoped he would dominate, but he never did.

His entire college career he might have had three sacks.

I'm just saying, you said people didn't view as a 1st rounder, and I pointed out that when the college season ended, they did. At least all those draft publications did. Who really knows. I'm certainly not here to defend Allan Branch's honour :D

And that's all I got to say about that.

Popps
01-26-2011, 02:23 PM
If Fairley is gone, just take Dareus and move on with life.

Arkie
01-26-2011, 02:29 PM
Carolina Panthers

Fairley satisfies the greatest need, and I think there's a much greater chance he's the No. 1 pick in the wake of his tremendous Co-National Championship performance.

Da'Quan Bowers Maybe they'll look past the bad tape and prior inconsistency, and instead see Bowers as the next Julius Peppers.

Fox may see Bowers as the next Peppers. The situation is the same. Hopefully the outcome will be too. Fox is taking over a team with lots of weaknesses and he has the #2 pick again.

ColoradoDarin
01-26-2011, 02:38 PM
If Fairley is gone, just take Dareus and move on with life.

This. Oh hey a solid DL player? Who could ever need one of those??

bronco0608
01-26-2011, 02:44 PM
Fox may see Bowers as the next Peppers. The situation is the same. Hopefully the outcome will be too. Fox is taking over a team with lots of weaknesses and he has the #2 pick again.

The good thing about the 2nd overall pick, its hard to mess up.

Barring anything crazy, we are going to welcome one of these three guys to the team:

Fairley
Bowers
Peterson

Not bad.

I'm just thankful we are not drafting a offensive player in the 1st round.

oubronco
01-26-2011, 02:47 PM
Dareus would be my pick

lostknight
01-26-2011, 02:55 PM
I'd be shocked if QB isn't #1 pick

I don't think there is a QB with number on talent this year. Watching the senior bowl is depressing at the QB position.

Honestly, I think Tebow would have gone number one overall if he came out this year rather then last.

lostknight
01-26-2011, 02:56 PM
I think Vonn Miller is going to make a huge rise.

lostknight
01-26-2011, 02:57 PM
Ouch. Bucket to simulate the fade, and none of the QB's nailed it.

footstepsfrom#27
01-26-2011, 02:57 PM
Fox may see Bowers as the next Peppers. The situation is the same. Hopefully the outcome will be too. Fox is taking over a team with lots of weaknesses and he has the #2 pick again.
Then what becomes of Elvis? Both he and bowers would play the same position in either the 34 or the 43 so I can't see us taking Bowers unless Elvis is hurt worse than thought or if they trade him. No other DT aside from Fairley fits at #2 at this point...still early though so that could change...so I see no reason barring a trade down that Peterson wouldn't fit. If we do trade down though, we'd better get a pick in the top 10 and another before #20 to make it worth it. I hope Fox knows what he's doing...or somebody does. Time-wise they're already behind the 8-ball as far as the draft goes.

Inkana7
01-26-2011, 02:58 PM
Then what becomes of Elvis? Both he and bowers would play the same position in either the 34 or the 43 so I can't see us taking Bowers unless Elvis is hurt worse than thought or if they trade him. No other DT aside from Fairley fits at #2 at this point...still early though so that could change...so I see no reason barring a trade down that Peterson wouldn't fit. If we do trade down though, we'd better get a pick in the top 10 and another before #20 to make it worth it. I hope Fox knows what he's doing...or somebody does. Time-wise they're already behind the 8-ball as far as the draft goes.

You can never, ever, ever have too many pass rushers.

DrFate
01-26-2011, 03:01 PM
You can never, ever, ever have too many pass rushers.

Just look at the NYG from their SB win...

listopencil
01-26-2011, 03:10 PM
So...what if we trade with every single team below us? Like, we trade the #2 overall for the #3 and get some extra picks. Then just keep going as long as we possibly can. I'm just thinking it would be hilarious if the Broncos ended up with nothing in the first round and a bazillion 2nd-3rds.

NFLBRONCO
01-26-2011, 03:14 PM
Dareus would be my pick

Dareus and Peterson are my top choices with our #1 pick.

Bowers is the guy I expect Denver to choose though

Hogan11
01-26-2011, 03:25 PM
Let him go there, didn't want him anyways

Cito Pelon
01-26-2011, 03:27 PM
Ayers is irrelevant to the conversation. If he had shown to be a person that is not upgradable then I'd say sure we are set but I don't think that is the case right now. Jury is still out on Ayers

In regards to Cox, he was a 5th round pick so I don't think he's plays into the equation either because if he does then why can't we get a secondary person later on just like Cox. To draft Peterson because Cox is going to jail doesn't seem like a valid argument for drafting Peterson


I think the pick with be front seven or trade down

Not necessarily. If they can't reach that fabled "consensus" about Ayers they may be looking to upgrade. If the only guy that is all-in for Ayers is Xanders, then maybe the draft board will be leaning more toward a DE/pass-rusher than an inside DL.

But, the draft board should be impacted by the FA, or lack thereof. I think March 4th is the beginning of FA, and that is also the target date for a lockout if there is no CBA. In which case there is no FA, no trades, no franchise designation, nothing but the draft.

Bowers, Dareus, Fairley, trade down & get another pass-rusher plus a pick, trade down more than once & get whatever are still on the table at this point. We'll know a lot more come March.

footstepsfrom#27
01-26-2011, 03:27 PM
I like it when people make fools of themselves with idiotic predictions.
Me too.

serious hops
01-26-2011, 03:32 PM
If Dallas was willing to trade up to number 2 I would be completely for that. I don't see them being able to move up that far though

All depends on the asking price. Typically a move from #9 to #2 would include Dallas giving up next year's first in addition to several picks this year, but there's no law that you have to follow that trade value chart. If Carolina takes Fairley and our FO isn't in love with Bowers or Peterson, maybe they take a slightly lesser package to get out of the slot and add some desperately-needed picks this year.

If you can get something like their second and fourth this year and maybe their second or third next year-- possibly a young role player or useful vet thrown in-- I think you have to consider it. We'll see where everyone projects once the evaluation process is complete, but I'd be happy with Watt if Dareus is off the board at #9.

Should be interesting, anyway. The rules are different this year, old models become limited in their usefulness when trying to project. Even the experts will be guessing more than usual this year.

Agamemnon
01-26-2011, 03:47 PM
Yeah, I mean you probably know a lot more than their GM about what their team needs are.

Again, 32nd ranked offense. This isn't rocket science.

serious hops
01-26-2011, 03:59 PM
You can never, ever, ever have too many pass rushers.

That's what Ernie Accorsi says. . .

meangene
01-26-2011, 04:08 PM
All depends on the asking price. Typically a move from #9 to #2 would include Dallas giving up next year's first in addition to several picks this year, but there's no law that you have to follow that trade value chart. If Carolina takes Fairley and our FO isn't in love with Bowers or Peterson, maybe they take a slightly lesser package to get out of the slot and add some desperately-needed picks this year.

If you can get something like their second and fourth this year and maybe their second or third next year-- possibly a young role player or useful vet thrown in-- I think you have to consider it. We'll see where everyone projects once the evaluation process is complete, but I'd be happy with Watt if Dareus is off the board at #9.

Should be interesting, anyway. The rules are different this year, old models become limited in their usefulness when trying to project. Even the experts will be guessing more than usual this year.

I would do it in a second for their #1, #2 and Tashard Choice.

PRBronco
01-26-2011, 04:11 PM
I would do it in a second for their #1, #2 and Tashard Choice.

Mmm, I think you're selling our #2 short.

footstepsfrom#27
01-26-2011, 04:18 PM
Mmm, I think you're selling our #2 short.
Right. We need that pick to produce a major impact, not a couple of decent starters, but an impact player we can build around. If we can trade down a few spots and still pick up a stud that's fine but I have a sick feeling this front office could try to squeeze to much out of it instead of just selecting the best football player. We should come out of this draft withh at least three potential starters even if we don't get anything in a trade for Orton, and if we do we should get two impact players instead of one. Game changers and playmakers are what I want to see, not more guys with potenial or injured talent that slides in the draft. Draft at freaking stud or two for a change.

meangene
01-26-2011, 04:34 PM
Right. We need that pick to produce a major impact, not a couple of decent starters, but an impact player we can build around. If we can trade down a few spots and still pick up a stud that's fine but I have a sick feeling this front office could try to squeeze to much out of it instead of just selecting the best football player. We should come out of this draft withh at least three potential starters even if we don't get anything in a trade for Orton, and if we do we should get two impact players instead of one. Game changers and playmakers are what I want to see, not more guys with potenial or injured talent that slides in the draft. Draft at freaking stud or two for a change.

I think we could still get a stud player at a position of need with #9 (deep DL first round), we would then have three early second rounders and the back to rotate with Moreno in Choice. Maybe get them to throw in another later round choice to make the draft value chart work.

Requiem
01-26-2011, 04:38 PM
Then what becomes of Elvis? Both he and bowers would play the same position in either the 34 or the 43 so I can't see us taking Bowers unless Elvis is hurt worse than thought or if they trade him. No other DT aside from Fairley fits at #2 at this point...still early though so that could change...so I see no reason barring a trade down that Peterson wouldn't fit. If we do trade down though, we'd better get a pick in the top 10 and another before #20 to make it worth it. I hope Fox knows what he's doing...or somebody does. Time-wise they're already behind the 8-ball as far as the draft goes.

Bowers and Dumervil could easily be on the field at the same time, and many suggest that Bowers best pro position will be LDE.

footstepsfrom#27
01-26-2011, 04:46 PM
Bowers and Dumervil could easily be on the field at the same time, and many suggest that Bowers best pro position will be LDE.
Then what becomes of Ayers? Bowers and he are approximately the same size, Bowers about 5 pounds bigger. Ayers is not a 4-3 SAM he's a 4-3 DE or an OLB in the 34. I can't see having three tweener types when we need interior tackles.

serious hops
01-26-2011, 04:55 PM
Then what becomes of Ayers? Bowers and he are approximately the same size, Bowers about 5 pounds bigger. Ayers is not a 4-3 SAM he's a 4-3 DE or an OLB in the 34. I can't see having three tweener types when we need interior tackles.

No reason Ayers can't slide over and rotate with Doom at RDE on obvious passing downs-- and then you play either Bowers or Ayers inside if you use a traditional four-DL front in the nickel, or play Ayers as one of your rushbackers if/when you go with an amoeba look in the nickel. Keeps Doom out of the grind on second-and-short, and helps keep all your pass rushers fresh for third downs. A creative DC wouldn't have any problem finding uses for any of those guys IMO, and there's no law that your DLs have to take every single snap.

FTR, I do agree that the need for a couple beefy DTs is more immediate than the need for another potential edge rusher, but if the FO is sold on Bowers I certainly wouldn't want them to pass on a blue chip edge rusher because of a guy we took two years ago that has like one career sack.

meangene
01-26-2011, 04:57 PM
Then what becomes of Ayers? Bowers and he are approximately the same size, Bowers about 5 pounds bigger. Ayers is not a 4-3 SAM he's a 4-3 DE or an OLB in the 34. I can't see having three tweener types when we need interior tackles.

Exactly. I just don't see drafting Bowers when we have so many glaring needs on defense. If Fairley is gone, I'm not really that sold on Peterson either. Trading back seems like the way to go AND with the anticipated rookie wage scale, teams may be more willing to trade up than in the past. Maybe someone who wants a QB? Or who is really sold on Peterson.

Requiem
01-26-2011, 05:01 PM
Then what becomes of Ayers? Bowers and he are approximately the same size, Bowers about 5 pounds bigger. Ayers is not a 4-3 SAM he's a 4-3 DE or an OLB in the 34. I can't see having three tweener types when we need interior tackles.

There is nothing wrong with having a surplus of good ends on our team. Maybe the reality of it will be that Ayers isn't going to be a starter for us in the NFL, maybe not for anyone. Just because we invested a first-round pick in Robert Ayers doesn't mean we should be shy about taking Bowers, who could be deserving of such a selection and a much better player in a 4-3

Ayers has done a good job of creating pressure on the quarterback, but he doesn't have many finishes or end results. When evaluating the roster, he is certainly a person that can be upgraded upon, easily.

serious hops
01-26-2011, 05:01 PM
I think we could still get a stud player at a position of need with #9 (deep DL first round), we would then have three early second rounders and the back to rotate with Moreno in Choice. Maybe get them to throw in another later round choice to make the draft value chart work.

We have no picks in the 4th, 5th or 7th this year. I absolutely agree with the sentiment that you don't pass on a potential differencemaker just to add a few mid-round picks, but if the FO feels that a player like Dareus (or Watt, whoever) isn't significantly below Bowers (or Peterson, etc), then it would be huge for us to recoup some picks to help rebuild depth.

NUB
01-26-2011, 05:07 PM
I think the Panthers do take Fairley with Luck out of the equation... I'm still hoping just one of the QB's gets very hot pre-draft because there are a lot of teams who would want to jump to our spot if that were the case. We need to load up on picks badly and this would provide the best scenario to do so, IMO. 49ers, Titans, Cardinals, Bengals and Bills could all be looking antsy for a QB come draft-day. (I think the Panthers would take a QB if they didn't have Clausen who, really, might as well get a second chance if they're not gonna have Luck.)

meangene
01-26-2011, 05:38 PM
We have no picks in the 4th, 5th or 7th this year. I absolutely agree with the sentiment that you don't pass on a potential differencemaker just to add a few mid-round picks, but if the FO feels that a player like Dareus (or Watt, whoever) isn't significantly below Bowers (or Peterson, etc), then it would be huge for us to recoup some picks to help rebuild depth.

I agree. Well said.

epicSocialism4tw
01-26-2011, 06:46 PM
I would have absolutely no problem if the Broncos took Bowers.

Bowers is the kind of high-motor monster of a player that would make Broncos fans proud. He has the tools to dominate in the NFL.

Love the kid.

If Fairley isnt there, the Broncos will probably take Bowers. Bowers might be the best player in this draft.

(music is NSFW)
<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/U9ye6OoWA4g" frameborder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe>

primetime714
01-26-2011, 07:54 PM
There is nothing wrong with having a surplus of good ends on our team. Maybe the reality of it will be that Ayers isn't going to be a starter for us in the NFL, maybe not for anyone. Just because we invested a first-round pick in Robert Ayers doesn't mean we should be shy about taking Bowers, who could be deserving of such a selection and a much better player in a 4-3

Ayers has done a good job of creating pressure on the quarterback, but he doesn't have many finishes or end results. When evaluating the roster, he is certainly a person that can be upgraded upon, easily.

Agreed. People act like we're set at DE with Ayers and Doom. Well Doom is coming off a serious injury and Ayers hasn't proven anything. Besides without Doom this year we were terrible, so if we take Bowers and both Doom and Ayers are healthy and playing well there's nothing wrong with having 3 good DE's. I mean look the at the Giants they've been able to utilize a guy like Kiwanuka despite him not being a starter. Fox and Allen could do the same with this group.

At 2 it probably should be Fairley or Bowers. They're the two biggest potential impact players in the draft and they would help improve upon a last place defense that was worst in the league at rushing the passer and not so great against the run either.

ZONA
01-26-2011, 08:25 PM
Expect the faces of the top 5-10 picks to change in the next several months...you don't have to choose from those 3 guys alone

I don't expect the top 5 to change much at all. Even if guys have great combines, most of what they did during the season is what they'll be judged on. Guys who have great combines can shoot up but usually they don't shoot up to top 5 on that alone.

footstepsfrom#27
01-26-2011, 08:55 PM
No reason Ayers can't slide over and rotate with Doom at RDE on obvious passing downs--
Well I can think of one; we don't need two highly paid guys playing the same position. We need more impact from both those guys than having them be alternates. A 1st rounder like Ayers needs to start and Doom needs to be an every down starter, which is why I'm wondering if he can be that if we go to a 4-3 defense.
and then you play either Bowers or Ayers inside if you use a traditional four-DL front in the nickel, or play Ayers as one of your rushbackers if/when you go with an amoeba look in the nickel. Keeps Doom out of the grind on second-and-short, and helps keep all your pass rushers fresh for third downs. A creative DC wouldn't have any problem finding uses for any of those guys IMO, and there's no law that your DLs have to take every single snap.
All these configurations lead back to the same thing, at least one high round pick becomes a backup/alternate player. We MUST get more than that from the #2 pick in the draft. Peterson gives us the surest thing, and if Fairley isn't there, I see no reason not to just take that 222 pound bullet and put him back there with Champ to intimidate opposing WR's and support all kinds of special package defensive alignments. Maybe move Champ to safety and prolong his career 3 years longer as well.

footstepsfrom#27
01-26-2011, 09:03 PM
Agreed. People act like we're set at DE with Ayers and Doom. Well Doom is coming off a serious injury and Ayers hasn't proven anything. Besides without Doom this year we were terrible, so if we take Bowers and both Doom and Ayers are healthy and playing well there's nothing wrong with having 3 good DE's. I mean look the at the Giants they've been able to utilize a guy like Kiwanuka despite him not being a starter. Fox and Allen could do the same with this group.

At 2 it probably should be Fairley or Bowers. They're the two biggest potential impact players in the draft and they would help improve upon a last place defense that was worst in the league
On the other hand, that rotation problem is not going to happen with either Peterson or Fairley, or for that matter Dareus. If there's at least a 50/50 chance Ayers is anywhere close to matching talent to production then it still comes down to needing to spend the #2 pick on an every down player not one that shares in a rotation.

Requiem
01-26-2011, 10:11 PM
There isn't a problem with "rotation" of Bowers is selected. Mountains out of molehills.

yerner
01-26-2011, 10:16 PM
It's too early to figure this out. Last year Bradford wasn't even being considered for the first pick until the workouts started and Adam Schefter finally predicted it. Maybe Gabbert or Locker starts shooting up the board.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2011, 10:22 PM
I think to not select bowers simply because we have Ayers and Doom is a horrible mistake. As someone mentioned, the Giants collect defensive lineman and found ways to utilize them all. This team, more than anything, needs pass rushers. Bowers is a friggin BEAST. Ive seen what having an elite corner has done for our defense. Its done nothing witout a pass rush. Time to start collecting them.

WABronco
01-26-2011, 10:29 PM
Ya....Dumervil and Ayers will spend plenty of time on the sidelines if we go 4-3. Let's rely on gridiron luminaries such as...I can't even think of who our other DE's would be. Surely no one of NFL caliber.

Our defense is a ****ing scrub fest. There would be no "surplus" IMO.

Archer81
01-26-2011, 10:40 PM
Ya....Dumervil and Ayers will spend plenty of time on the sidelines if we go 4-3. Let's rely on gridiron luminaries such as...I can't even think of who our other DE's would be. Surely no one of NFL caliber.

Our defense is a ****ing scrub fest. There would be no "surplus" IMO.


We'll see. It all depends on what the coaching staff will come up with. Some players we think are marginal now might blossom (which would be really awesome and cut down the talent infusion phase). Having Ayres and Doom is a good start. A smart d-coordinator will find a way to utilize what they bring to the table and create a productive defense.

At least we hope, anyway.

:Broncos:

The Joker
01-26-2011, 11:13 PM
If the staff like Bowers then there's no problem at all with taking him at #2.

We don't really know what we have with Ayers as a 4-3 DE. Maybe he'll do well, maybe he won't. My guess is he'll be a solid starter as a strongside DE, he's a tremendously powerful man who was our best run defender early in the season before he got injured. He's also able to get reasonable pressure in the pass rush. Don't think he'll ever be a guy who gets double digit sacks, but he'll do enough in that department to be a solid all-round DE.

The bigger issue though is that I believe the best way to use Dumervil in a 4-3 is to limit the number of snaps he plays and use him primarily on passing downs. Draft Bowers, start him at DE opposite Ayers and as soon as you get your opponent in any sort of passing down you pull one of them out of there and get Elvis lined up wide and ready to do what he does best.

And for third and long you shift Ayers inside and have Bowers and Dumervil at DE.

How long as it since we've had a great pass rush? And how long have we complained about it? We're in a position to finally fix it, and it baffles me to see people saying taking a guy like Bowers wouldn't be smart because we're 'set' at DE. With the amount of rotation you need on the D-Line there's absolutely no issue at all with drafting Bowers.

footstepsfrom#27
01-26-2011, 11:58 PM
There isn't a problem with "rotation" of Bowers is selected. Mountains out of molehills.
Thete's a problem with log-jamming one position.

I wasn't aware commenting on this was causing some kind of problem, let alone the mountainous kind. Good lord...

footstepsfrom#27
01-27-2011, 12:05 AM
How long as it since we've had a great pass rush? And how long have we complained about it? We're in a position to finally fix it, and it baffles me to see people saying taking a guy like Bowers wouldn't be smart because we're 'set' at DE. With the amount of rotation you need on the D-Line there's absolutely no issue at all with drafting Bowers.
You think Bowlen wants to pay Elvis $60+ million to be a situational pass rusher? It's not that drafting a pass rusher isn't a good idea, it's where we ought to be looking first on the line. If Fairley is gone and they don't want Peterson, I'd prefer they trade down a couple spots and pick up Dareus plus something else. I just don't see either Ayers or Doom, or for that matter Bowers either, progressing as well as hey would if they were full time players. If we knew Ayers wasn't going to pay out it would be easier to draft Bowers I think. Hopefully the pick is Peterson though,since I think he's the best talent in the draft.

footstepsfrom#27
01-27-2011, 12:08 AM
I think to not select bowers simply because we have Ayers and Doom is a horrible mistake. As someone mentioned, the Giants collect defensive lineman and found ways to utilize them all. This team, more than anything, needs pass rushers. Bowers is a friggin BEAST. Ive seen what having an elite corner has done for our defense. Its done nothing witout a pass rush. Time to start collecting them.
And in this draft we can do that deep into the draft, so why not use the only shot at a once-in-a-decade player...on that player?

Killericon
01-27-2011, 12:25 AM
Highly doubtful. Branch only had two sacks his senior season and is built like a nose tackle. So he wasn't a gap penetrating 4-3 tackle, and people didn't view him as 1st round grade NT.

Comparing apples to oranges here imo.

The first mock draft from that year that I looked up had him going #9. (http://www.sportznutz.com/nfl/draft/2007/mock_draft.htm)

serious hops
01-27-2011, 01:04 AM
Well I can think of one; we don't need two highly paid guys playing the same position. We need more impact from both those guys than having them be alternates. A 1st rounder like Ayers needs to start and Doom needs to be an every down starter, which is why I'm wondering if he can be that if we go to a 4-3 defense.



Like some other posters in this thread, I simply can't agree with your opinion that Rob Ayers has to be penciled in as an every-down starter just because he was drafted in the first round-- especially at a position he's never played in the pros. Let him earn that on the field. I'm not down on the guy-- I thought he was setting the edge hard against the run before he got hurt, as well as generating most of what little pressure we got-- but he hasn't at all proven to be a finisher as a pass rusher. And quite frankly he never excelled in that area in college-- what did he have, four sacks his last season? It seems overly optimistic at this juncture to bank on him becoming the legit complimentary rusher we need opposite Doom.

Granted, I'd much rather get the tougher-to-find nasty interior rusher, but I'm guessing the Panthers will take Fairley. Would I rather try to trade down and target Dareus or Watt in that scenario? Probably yes, but I don't exactly get to talk to a pro scouting staff about it. If the FO thinks Bowers is the guy, I can't see how you can complain too much about taking a player that has gotten some comparisons to the likes of Peppers and Mario Williams.

I won't lie, Bowers' one-year wonder status does cause me some concern, but you hope your personnel department does their due dilligence, and that you have the right coaches in place to develop the kid. Without putting too much emphasis on measureables, I am looking forward to seeing his triangle numbers. But let's not act like Peterson or anyone else is unbustable either. You can talk all you want about a guy having a higher floor, but scouts miss on at least a few top prospects every single year.


I also can't agree with your contention that both Elvis and Ayers need to be on the field every snap. Seriously, why would you want a guy to play with his hand in the dirt every single snap when he's in the 250 pound range? A guy like Peppers is one thing, but you don't your undersized pass rusher in there on 2nd-and-short against a two-TE package. You just don't. Not only is he a liability against a (likely) running play, but you end up wearing him out, which makes him less effective on third down when you need him most.

No doubt you want your best players on the field, but the NFL is a game of matchups and sub-packages. Speaking of which. . . I also think you're being too insistent on applying a rigid model to a fluid game. Who starts isn't as important as who finishes, and why is it critical that every high pick be listed as a starter when most teams don't play their base defense more than sixty-some percent of their total snaps? If you have some type of nickel package on the field thirty-eight percent of the time, and all three play in it, what's the problem? You can't convince me that missing 15 or so snaps a game is going to stunt the development of a third-year pro going back to his college position.

Best case scenario, Bowers is what you hope and Ayers develops into a complete player. So you trade Doom's big contract after a few years and use the money to re-sign the younger, bigger and more versatile Ayers. Or preferrably, you just get a creative DC who will unleash everybody and blitz you to a championship the way Spagnuolo did with the G-men's "surplus" of pass rushers. That wouldn't suck, right?

And it doesn't suck to have depth, either. If Ayers doesn't develop as a pass rusher, his contract isn't hateful for a base 43 LDE or run-stopping 34 SAM for a few years, and you may be able to re-sign him at a reasonable price if that happens. Nobody likes to admit defeat, but having talented former first rounders as depth guys at a few spots isn't the end of the world-- more like an obvious formula for "talented depth."

Anyway, JMO. Bowers isn't my first choice, nor is going back to the 4-3 for that matter. But Fox did okay the last time he picked a big physical freak DE at #2 overall, so I won't be that upset if we try it again. Just get me somebody Like Brandon Mebane in FA, or Cory Leguit-- we do need a legit interior presence if we go back to the 43, pardon the pun.

footstepsfrom#27
01-27-2011, 02:18 AM
Like some other posters in this thread, I simply can't agree with your opinion that Rob Ayers has to be penciled in as an every-down starter just because he was drafted in the first round-- especially at a position he's never played in the pros.
I haven't said that he should be penciled in as a starter. What I'm saying is that we do not KNOW enough at this time about him to arbitrarily conclude that he's NOT starter material, big difference. He was hurt part of the time so his growth trajectory is lagging a bit. If we draft Bowers and then suddenly we see Ayers is stepping up, now we have a positon over-loaded with high picks and high dollar players, while we have talent lacking elsewhere. My point is...it's a risk doing that. When you take a guy this high in the draft you don't take him to be part of a rotation, you take him to be an impact player who starts.
Let him earn that on the field. I'm not down on the guy-- I thought he was setting the edge hard against the run before he got hurt, as well as generating most of what little pressure we got-- but he hasn't at all proven to be a finisher as a pass rusher. And quite frankly he never excelled in that area in college-- what did he have, four sacks his last season? It seems overly optimistic at this juncture to bank on him becoming the legit complimentary rusher we need opposite Doom.
When he was drafted, Mike Mayock said he'd be the best player in the draft, but it would take 3 years. People in here crowed about that repeatedly, so I'm of the opinion that since he made progress at a new position his first full year on the field, it's worth considering that he possibly breaks out. If he does, suddenly we do have a situation where we're a little over loaded at DE and under stocked (again) at DT. Since Paea is hurt, it makes it a bit harder to come by an impact DT in the first round. Not that we won't get one, but if it's a choice between a guy who we're not entirely sure will be a star, versus a guy people say is the next great DB in the league, I want the surer bet, expecially if the alternative is a player drafted this high who could have to rotate instead of start. Of course we could take him and trade Elvis, but I don't think his salary will make that possible.
Granted, I'd much rather get the tougher-to-find nasty interior rusher, but I'm guessing the Panthers will take Fairley. Would I rather try to trade down and target Dareus or Watt in that scenario? Probably yes, but I don't exactly get to talk to a pro scouting staff about it. If the FO thinks Bowers is the guy, I can't see how you can complain too much about taking a player that has gotten some comparisons to the likes of Peppers and Mario Williams.
I don't think he's Peppers or Mario Williams. He's nowhere near the size of Willilams, he's 6'4", 280 about 20 pounds smaller. He's also a little bit of a concern since he also only did it one year. Cripes...I posted the review on this guy a few days ago and before that nobody in here even talked about him, and now that I bring up a legit concern, it's falling on deaf ears. I'm also not aware that the FO has targeted this guy so we're discussing it from a perspective that we don't know exists.
But let's not act like Peterson or anyone else is unbustable either. You can talk all you want about a guy having a higher floor, but scouts miss on at least a few top prospects every single year.
Right...but Peterson is considered the surest thing in this draft. Considering where we are now, and how high we're picking, that's a desireable trait.
I also can't agree with your contention that both Elvis and Ayers need to be on the field every snap. Seriously, why would you want a guy to play with his hand in the dirt every single snap when he's in the 250 pound range?
That's my point exactly...he's shown he's not as effective in the 43, which is why he presents a bit of a dilemna. You don't pay a guy $60 million unless you think you're getting better production than he can give at that spot. Keeping Elvis means either a commitment to the 3-4 or a hybrid attack where he's in the OLB spot at times and while that's the best use of our best defensive front 7 player, it's still somewhat problematic as it limits our ability to go to the 43 as a base package without having Elvis at the DE spot. I don't see how he does either job that well if he's splitting time with Bowers. It seems like the Bama kid might be a better fit since he can play any position on the line, he stuffs the run and he can rush from inside. That might mean trading down 5 spots and picking up a #2 and something else.

Dedhed
01-27-2011, 06:47 AM
I would love for Fairley to be off the board before we pick.