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Swedish Extrovert
01-20-2011, 07:09 PM
I got this a couple of weeks ago via email, and just wrote and epic response to my friend who is a Bears fan. Since the response was epic and relevant I wanted to post it here for discussion. Anywhoo... the article in question is this one - concerning the most over rated QBs of all time: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/524778-the-50-most-overrated-qbs-in-nfl-history?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=referral#page/41

The email:
Check out this link. Favre makes the list. So does Cutler. See who else.

Me:
I wanted to get back to this and respond, because I did read that whole thing when I got some down time at DU. My opinion on Cutler isn’t as bad as it used to be, but I still don’t like the guy and he definitely deserves to be on the list. Perhaps higher than 43 even.

Before we get to Elway, just a quick rundown on some of the players on the list that I DIDN’T agree with:

Trent Dilfer (48): this guy just doesn’t get enough credit. He wasn’t great but he was serviceable, and that’s all anyone says about him. And he DID win a Super Bowl.

Jake Plummer (47): I loved watching this guy play, and he had the best out-of-pocket rating in the NFL. Bad QB rating, but this was with the Cardinals. Once he had a good coach (Shanahan) he did well. Besides he was an innovative scrambler who found ways to win, which is hard to quantify with numbers.

Kordell Stewart (45): Pretty much the same argument as Plummer.

Mark Sanchez (44): WAY too early to make a judgment, in my opinion. Also, same argument as Stewart and Plummer. (It’s highly possible that at the end of this month, he’ll be a Super Bowl winning QB, too)

Kerry Collins (29): it’s a joke these guys think Kerry Collins is OVERrated. First, he’s not rated that highly. Second, I’m pretty amazed at this guys combination of accuracy and strength. He’s never really caught on and is kind of a bust, but I think the right coach could have done wonders for him – in his one year under a good QB-coach – Jim Fassel – he took the Giants to a Super Bowl.

Boomer Esiason (24): again with the QB rating – that was a different time. Also, he took the freaking BENGALS to a Super Bowl – ‘nuff said.

Vinny Testaverde (23): true, he was an interception machine, but he was a gunslinger and a tenacious player who would win (and find ways to win) when he caught on.

Doug Flutie (22): took the Bills to the playoffs, and made a couple of Pro Bowls. Not bad for a five-foot-nine QB. Again, never really got a chance to succeed and isn’t that highly rated to begin with.

Steve McNair (21): see the Plummer/Stewart argument (although Fischer is a good coach).

Bart Starr (7): really? One of the greatest ever. Tough as nails. He was Lombardi’s guy and he quarterbacked this NFL’s first real dynasty.

Otto Graham (5): same as Bart Starr… the Browns were ridiculous when this guy played. Too bad it was before the Super Bowl existed; otherwise the Browns would have 5 Super Bowl victories under their belt, rather than 0.

Warren Moon (2): see the Plummer/Stewart argument.

The list was spot on with: Joe Namath (Broadway Joe will always be remembered for ONE comment he made and the ONE good season he had) , Daunte Culpepper, Bernie Kosar, Jake Delhomme (who might be a Bronco next year… yuck), Tony Romo, Phil Simms, Drew Bledsoe, Bob Griese.

Some other thoughts: surprised I didn’t see Sammy Baugh on this list (as long as we’re talking about old-timers). He was good though. Brett Favre is overrated, but I don’t know if I would have ranked him that high – look at what he did in Green Bay and the myriad of records he holds. Johnny Unitas is considered by a lot of scouts to be the first QB great – his 78 QB rating is merely a testament to how the times have changed. It’s also funny Joe Montana isn’t on that list.

Finally, ELWAY. That list is a joke because of the fact that Elway is on it at 26. As a Broncos fan, I followed Elway’s entire career, and as an objective football fanatic I can say that Elway had crap to work with. The entire first half of his career, he played under Dan Reeves who espoused run-first offense and strong defense – even though the Broncos never got a good running back until Terrell Davis. The result was that Elway had a pretty decent O-line, but no good wide receivers and a ridiculously predictable offense that usually went like this –
1st and ten: run up to middle for 2
2nd and 8: run up the middle for 3
3rd and 5: dropped pass … punt.

His top receiver throughout most of his career was a freaking Tight End for crying out loud. Shannon Sharpe was good, but realistically he wasn’t GREAT, yet he still managed to become the NFL’s all-time leading Tight End (a record since broken by Tony Gonzales). I’ve seen plenty of lists that have Elway as one of the most UNDERrated QBs ever.

Most importantly - this list used QB rating and wins to dictate how successful a QB is. Until recently, John Elway was the winningst QB in NFL history, which they conveniently overlooked. (Elway is now second to Favre [and Tom Brady will likely surpass him in his career]… but anyone who plays into their geriatric years is going to compile a lot of wins.) Also overlooked was the fact that Elway’s 5 conference championships is the NFL record in that regard. That said … yeah … Elway’s career QB rating was 79 (not good by today’s standards), but aside from the lack of receivers he had, that came from a time when players were allowed to play defense, and 17 points was considered a lot of points for a team. And besides, look at what happened when Elway finally got a good supporting cast – Terrell Davis, Rod Smith and Ed McCaffery all joined the Broncos in 1995, and John Elway led the NFL in QB rating in each of his last four years (1995-1998).

I could go on… bottom line: John Elway was a great and the case can be made for him as one of the most underrated quarterbacks ever, and one for the greatest QB of all time. In fact, John Madden agrees with me – he even said (in his video game) that the Broncos from 1983-1993 (who went to the Super Bowls 3 times and had one losing record) was the closest thing he’s ever seen to a successful one-man team (that one man being John Elway).

By the way, there might be some factual errors in there since I did this entirely by memory today in between classes.

loborugger
01-20-2011, 07:16 PM
This list was posted on here a few weeks/months ago. This list is an epic fail just on the Otto Graham rating.

That One Guy
01-20-2011, 07:16 PM
It's always hard to quantify "he had crap to work with" in these QB arguments. People said that about Vick in ATL because everyone dropped his passes but even Lelie dropped them after having great hands here. Was it the QB or the receiver? Was Cutler responsible for only getting sacked 11 or 13 times (whatever it was) a few years ago or was it the line? There's also a lot of QBs that ride their teams to wins (could Dilfer have won a SB with any other team?).

Also, no self-nominating epic. Not allowed.

tsiguy96
01-20-2011, 07:17 PM
BR should be disallowed

Swedish Extrovert
01-20-2011, 07:18 PM
It's always hard to quantify "he had crap to work with" in these QB arguments. People said that about Vick in ATL because everyone dropped his passes but even Lelie dropped them after having great hands here. Was it the QB or the receiver? Was Cutler responsible for only getting sacked 11 or 13 times (whatever it was) a few years ago or was it the line? There's also a lot of QBs that ride their teams to wins (could Dilfer have won a SB with any other team?).

Also, no self-nominating epic. Not allowed.

I'm not familiar with nerd protocol... what exactly is epic?

Blart
01-20-2011, 07:31 PM
Stat comparisons across generations are useless. The game, the strategy, and the rules are different. You might as well add Kobe Bryant to the QB list.

Find a more objective method (perhaps break down some game film) and re-do the list.

briane
01-20-2011, 08:09 PM
do we really need another thread discussing an article on bleacherreport. when are people going to realize they let anyone write for them...

Archedamian
01-20-2011, 08:30 PM
Warren Moon is one of only two people to be enshrined in both the Canadian Football League and the Pro Football Halls of Fame, the other person being a coach. Overrated; I don't think so.

That One Guy
01-20-2011, 08:35 PM
Warren Moon is one of only two people to be enshrined in both the Canadian Football League and the Pro Football Halls of Fame, the other person being a coach. Overrated; I don't think so.

But wasn't it Warren Moon that they took him based on what he did in both places? I recall someone not too long ago going in and the comment being made that it was the "pro football hall of fame, not NFL hall of fame" so to say he's in both is fine and dandy but it incorporated both parts. If Peyton Manning chose to spend some time in the CFL before going NFL, he'd probably be in both as well.

Archedamian
01-20-2011, 08:46 PM
But wasn't it Warren Moon that they took him based on what he did in both places? I recall someone not too long ago going in and the comment being made that it was the "pro football hall of fame, not NFL hall of fame" so to say he's in both is fine and dandy but it incorporated both parts. If Peyton Manning chose to spend some time in the CFL before going NFL, he'd probably be in both as well.

He lead the Edmonton Eskimos to five consecutive Grey Cup victories and won the offensive Grey Cup Most Valuable Player award in 1980 and 1982. In his final CFL season he threw for a league record 5,648 yards, and won the CFL’s Most Outstanding Player Award. His record in the CFL alone makes him deserving of the CFL Hall of Fame.

If you combine his NFL and CFL numbers, he threw for 70,553 yards and 435 touchdowns. He is hardly overrated.

Tombstone RJ
01-20-2011, 08:58 PM
But wasn't it Warren Moon that they took him based on what he did in both places? I recall someone not too long ago going in and the comment being made that it was the "pro football hall of fame, not NFL hall of fame" so to say he's in both is fine and dandy but it incorporated both parts. If Peyton Manning chose to spend some time in the CFL before going NFL, he'd probably be in both as well.

That might be the case but the main reason Moon was never given a shot in the NFL as a QB is because he was black. He basically went to the CFL because it was the only place he could play QB.

Can you imagine how fantastic a team like the Redskins would have been throughout the 1980s had they drafted him? Gibbs + Moon + Riggens = multiple SB wins. Instead, he had to go to the CFL and then go to a run and shoot crap team like the Oilers... he's one of those QBs that an NFL franchise could have built a team around.

Hindsight being what it is, I'm sure there are 10 different teams that would have drafted Moon with their number 1 pick if they could do it all over again, and that's a conservative estimate.

jhns
01-21-2011, 06:24 AM
That is the worst random fan blog article I have ever seen and that is saying something. I can't believe people actually go to that site and read that stuff. Message boards are the exact same thing and at least have a lot of other people instantly laughing at people that post this dumb of stuff.

WolfpackGuy
01-21-2011, 06:37 AM
No Ron Powlus?

"Multiple Heismans and National Championships" they said he would win at Notre Dame.

LOL

toad
01-21-2011, 06:59 AM
How is Roethlisberger not on the list somewhere? Particularly since Eli Manning is...

He's been clutch at times, but he's been mostly average and his first Super Bowl was DESPITE his performance certainly not due to it (didn't he have a 30 rating or something)?

Good Lord, if Elway is anywhere on the list I can't see how Ben isn't.

vancejohnson82
01-21-2011, 07:00 AM
That is the worst random fan blog article I have ever seen and that is saying something. I can't believe people actually go to that site and read that stuff. Message boards are the exact same thing and at least have a lot of other people instantly laughing at people that post this dumb of stuff.

It's the same site that ranked Josh as the #8 worst coach....but i guess that guy gets a pass

Mile High Shack
01-21-2011, 08:04 AM
BR should be disallowed

this, that site is worse than like TMZ

Beantown Bronco
01-21-2011, 08:47 AM
I’ve seen plenty of lists that have Elway as one of the most UNDERrated QBs ever.



Ummmmm, really? Plenty? Let's not get carried away now.

By definition it's impossible for someone to be underrated when 99% of the even remotely official all time QB rankings out there consistently list him in the top 5 of all time.

gunns
01-21-2011, 09:15 AM
While I found the original list absurd, I find the OP list of those thought not to be overrated equally as absurd. On that list I only agree with Graham and Moon as not being overrated. As with the original it comes down to everyone's opinion, except in regards to Elway, he was the GOAT.

BroncosMT
01-21-2011, 09:44 AM
how in the heck does Kordell Stewart not rank higher?? sheesh

Jerry Curl
01-21-2011, 09:51 PM
I got this a couple of weeks ago via email, and just wrote and epic response to my friend who is a Bears fan. Since the response was epic and relevant I wanted to post it here for discussion. Anywhoo... the article in question is this one - concerning the most over rated QBs of all time: [url]http://bleacherreport

Is where I skipped to the Elway part.

Dr. Broncenstein
01-21-2011, 10:00 PM
"Shannon Sharpe was good, but not great"

Sounds like an NFL Hall of Fame committee member to me.

Odysseus
01-21-2011, 10:12 PM
Warren Moon is one of only two people to be enshrined in both the Canadian Football League and the Pro Football Halls of Fame, the other person being a coach. Overrated; I don't think so.

Warren Moon was maddening at times just like Elway.

Archedamian
01-21-2011, 10:25 PM
Warren Moon was maddening at times just like Elway.

Now this I agree with.

Swedish Extrovert
01-22-2011, 11:41 AM
"Shannon Sharpe was good, but not great"

Sounds like an NFL Hall of Fame committee member to me.

Oh, he's a hall of famer for sure and one of my favorite Broncos of all time. I don't think he was particularly well-rounded though.

OABB
01-22-2011, 11:43 AM
It's the same site that ranked Josh as the #8 worst coach....but i guess that guy gets a pass

Pwnd. Nice.

Dr. Broncenstein
01-22-2011, 12:04 PM
Oh, he's a hall of famer for sure and one of my favorite Broncos of all time. I don't think he was particularly well-rounded though.

WTF does that even mean? He completely revolutionized the position.

CEH
01-22-2011, 12:49 PM
WTF does that even mean? He completely revolutionized the position.

Not to get off topic but

I believe Kellen Winslow revolutionized the position more than Sharpe though Sharpe was great for us.

Winslow could block, catch, run over or out run DBs and was a mismatch in the red zone and had some of the best hands ever for a TE.

I was/am lucky to have season tickets in SD and now in Denver , saw both in person for most of their careers and I'm partial to Winslow

The catch against the Eagles was one of the best catches I've ever seen

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d801b32f2/NFL-All-Time-Team-Kellen-Winslow

His playoff game in MIA in '82 was legendary

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming

Gort
01-22-2011, 12:54 PM
Oh, he's a hall of famer for sure and one of my favorite Broncos of all time. I don't think he was particularly well-rounded though.

i've never understood why he talks like he has a mouthful of marbles, but his brother speaks eloquently (at least for a football player).

Gort
01-22-2011, 12:57 PM
Not to get off topic but

I believe Kellen Winslow revolutionized the position more than Sharpe though Sharpe was great for us.

Winslow could block, catch, run over or out run DBs and was a mismatch in the red zone and had some of the best hands ever for a TE.

I was/am lucky to have season tickets in SD and now in Denver , saw both in person for most of their careers and I'm partial to Winslow

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming

John Mackey revolutionized the position. he's still regarded as the greatest to have played that position.

TomServo
01-23-2011, 12:46 AM
if peyton manning and brett favre arent on the list...........