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View Full Version : Bailey to return according to Woody


LetsGoBroncos
01-20-2011, 08:17 AM
In today's mailbag on the Post, Woody says he has been told in good faith the Broncos will re-sign him to a 4 year $42 million deal or put the franchise tag on him

OABB
01-20-2011, 08:19 AM
Gonna miss him.

PRBronco
01-20-2011, 08:19 AM
Yay Broncos news! Also kinda good Broncos news. Price tag is a bit steep, isn't it? I haven't exactly been keeping up to speed on cornerback contract values.

*edit* Oh also lol @ local media. So poster above me is probably correct.

schaaf
01-20-2011, 08:22 AM
Hopefully they sign him, that franchise tag would break the bank

Rascal
01-20-2011, 08:24 AM
Good news

oubronco
01-20-2011, 08:24 AM
Great news

tsiguy96
01-20-2011, 08:26 AM
even though woodys articles are pretty much dumb, hes usually right when it comes to stuff like this it seems. he also predicted that orange will be back in 2012.

Smilin Assassin
01-20-2011, 08:30 AM
Praying that this is true. I thouroghly enjoy having Champ on this "our" team.

jhns
01-20-2011, 08:45 AM
Hope its true. Champ is the man.

HILife
01-20-2011, 08:49 AM
Hope this is true. Altough he can't be franshised without a new CBA.

BroncosMT
01-20-2011, 08:49 AM
I hope Woodrow is right on this one

go_broncos
01-20-2011, 08:50 AM
I hope it is true..

baja
01-20-2011, 08:54 AM
Not saying it's the smart move but imagine the boost to Peterson's career to learn under Champ and imagine the defensive options with those two in the secondary and Goodman in the nickel.

RunSilentRunDeep
01-20-2011, 08:55 AM
The source is obviously Bowlen or Elway. If it's Bowlen, let's hope Pat wrote "sign Champ to $42M deal" on his refrigerator or he may forget.

Broncoman13
01-20-2011, 08:55 AM
Nice! Pretty much the same as the contract that was yanked earlier in the season.

Hopefully this means we will go DL instead of Patrick Peterson. Fairley, Bowers, Dareus... Doesn't really matter which DL as long as it's DL that can make an impact his rookie year!

If Bowers grades out well I think he would be a smart pick. I don't have a lot of faith in Doom being an everydown DE. Ayers can slide inside during passing downs and we could have Bowers and Doom pressuring the ends and Ayers up the middle.

Old Dude
01-20-2011, 08:55 AM
I approve.

Gcver2ver3
01-20-2011, 08:57 AM
i'll celebrate once it happens...

bowtown
01-20-2011, 08:57 AM
It wasn't ever even a question.

frerottenextelway
01-20-2011, 08:59 AM
Gonna miss him.

+1, joke getting no love.

Popps
01-20-2011, 09:04 AM
Not saying it's the smart move but imagine the boost to Peterson's career to learn under Champ and imagine the defensive options with those two in the secondary and Goodman in the nickel.

Baja, drafting Peterson would be the worst possible move this franchise could make with that pick, PARTICULARLY if we sign Champ.

We've got arguably 7-9 positions that could use an upgrade before CB, at that point.

Honestly, drafting Peterson would just be a disaster for this franchise.

Broncoman13
01-20-2011, 09:04 AM
Not saying it's the smart move but imagine the boost to Peterson's career to learn under Champ and imagine the defensive options with those two in the secondary and Goodman in the nickel.

No doubt they could be great together... But even those two can't cover for 5 seconds every passing down.

PRBronco
01-20-2011, 09:05 AM
Not saying it's the smart move but imagine the boost to Peterson's career to learn under Champ and imagine the defensive options with those two in the secondary and Goodman in the nickel.

Defensive options like get gashed in the run game or watch 25 million dollars worth of cornerbacks get roasted by a QB who has all day to throw? :stirstir: :poke:

Broncoman13
01-20-2011, 09:10 AM
Baja, drafting Peterson would be the worst possible move this franchise could make with that pick, PARTICULARLY if we sign Champ.

We've got arguably 7-9 positions that could use an upgrade before CB, at that point.

Honestly, drafting Peterson would just be a disaster for this franchise.

Depends on what you think will be available in the 2nd. Med seems to believe there will be DL available in the 2nd that would be mid 1st rounders in most drafts.

I would much rather we get a force on the DL in the first... But if you think there are DL in the 2nd that can make an immediate impact and want to have a succession plan for Champs transition to Safety, it may not be a bad strategy. Certainly a plan for the future rather than immediate results.

Hopefully we can get a CB in free agency (Richard Marshall, Eric Wright or Carlos Rogers), then we won't have to worry about it!

LittleFloyd
01-20-2011, 09:10 AM
Champ is the best CB in the NFL. Best because he not only covers the best WR, but he is THE best tackler on the entire defense.

baja
01-20-2011, 09:10 AM
Baja, drafting Peterson would be the worst possible move this franchise could make with that pick, PARTICULARLY if we sign Champ.

We've got arguably 7-9 positions that could use an upgrade before CB, at that point.

Honestly, drafting Peterson would just be a disaster for this franchise.

Not saying it would be the best choice but I don't think it would be a disaster to get the best player in the draft. We still have two high second round picks in a draft that is deep in DL players plus free agency. A disaster would be drafting a one year wonder with the 2nd overall pick that turns out to be a bust.

Pony Boy
01-20-2011, 09:11 AM
I don't want to see Champ in another uniform.

Hercules Rockefeller
01-20-2011, 09:12 AM
Baja, drafting Peterson would be the worst possible move this franchise could make with that pick, PARTICULARLY if we sign Champ.

We've got arguably 7-9 positions that could use an upgrade before CB, at that point.

Honestly, drafting Peterson would just be a disaster for this franchise.

It absolutely would not. They have more picks than just the 2nd overall in this draft that can be used to address the Front 7.

This defense is not being rebuilt in a single offseason either. It's such a short-sighted to view to say that the 2nd overall must be used on a Front 7 player.

If Peterson is a Suh-like prospect at corner, you take him. Period.

Broncoman13
01-20-2011, 09:13 AM
I just look at it as a multi year process. By the time the defense gets turned around Champ will likely be moving to safety. Gonna need a CB eventually.

Harder to find DL though. Not many in free agency. Lots of good CBs in FA. We will likely have to overpay though. Gotta be realistic. If you're Richard Marshall and the Broncos, Cowboys, and Ravens are calling who is last on your list unless the money is a deciding factor?

Crushaholic
01-20-2011, 09:13 AM
Champ is the best CB in the NFL. Best because he not only covers the best WR, but he is THE best tackler on the entire defense.

Yeah, that's pathetic. We DESPERATELY need people on the line who can tackle...

PRBronco
01-20-2011, 09:14 AM
Champ is the best CB in the NFL. Best because he not only covers the best WR, but he is THE best tackler on the entire defense.

If we keep him, I sure hope they switch to always using him to shadow someone, rather than just play "left". He seems so much more effective when being moved around.

vancejohnson82
01-20-2011, 09:14 AM
Baja, drafting Peterson would be the worst possible move this franchise could make with that pick, PARTICULARLY if we sign Champ.

We've got arguably 7-9 positions that could use an upgrade before CB, at that point.

Honestly, drafting Peterson would just be a disaster for this franchise.

I disagree. When's the last time we had a guy we could put back to return punts and kicks and honestly feel like we could turn around field position?

Plus, i think he has a 75% of becoming a shutdown corner, so once Champ is gone in 3-4 years we still have a cornerstone out there. Obviously I wouldn't mind Fairley or Bowers but I like the new dimension Peterson could bring to our team

Dedhed
01-20-2011, 09:18 AM
Defensive options like get gashed in the run game or watch 25 million dollars worth of cornerbacks get roasted by a QB who has all day to throw? :stirstir: :poke:
Like how Brady tore up the Jets on Sunday with all day in the pocket?

listopencil
01-20-2011, 09:18 AM
Gonna miss him.



Heh.

Dedhed
01-20-2011, 09:18 AM
It should be pointed out that this is nothing more than hearsay on Woody's part.

Broncoman13
01-20-2011, 09:20 AM
Not saying it would be the best choice but I don't think it would be a disaster to get the best player in the draft. We still have two high second round picks in a draft that is deep in DL players plus free agency. A disaster would be drafting a one year wonder with the 2nd overall pick that turns out to be a bust.

One year wonder is what worries me about Fairley and Bowers. Look at guys like Doom and Suggs. They were successful for two and three years.

I dont recall Mario Williams having more than one strong year tho. So if Bowers or Fairley test high, then maybe it's not a big deal.

Dedhed
01-20-2011, 09:22 AM
One year wonder is what worries me about Fairley and Bowers.
There is a lot more that worries me about Fairley.

Broncoman13
01-20-2011, 09:23 AM
I disagree. When's the last time we had a guy we could put back to return punts and kicks and honestly feel like we could turn around field position?

Plus, i think he has a 75% of becoming a shutdown corner, so once Champ is gone in 3-4 years we still have a cornerstone out there. Obviously I wouldn't mind Fairley or Bowers but I like the new dimension Peterson could bring to our team

Playing in Mile High really negates the potential of a kick returner. Too many touch backs. Punts have similar issues bc of hang time. Eddie Royal is a dynamic return man and I really liked what Decker did the last few weeks of the season returning Kicks.

2KBack
01-20-2011, 09:25 AM
Playing in Mile High really negates the potential of a kick returner. Too many touch backs. Punts have similar issues bc of hang time. Eddie Royal is a dynamic return man and I really liked what Decker did the last few weeks of the season returning Kicks.

Don't forget Vaughn, That dude was electric.

Broncoman13
01-20-2011, 09:26 AM
There is a lot more that worries me about Fairley.

Same here. Not worried about him being a dirty player though. If that's what gives him the edge and he is making consistent plays then you take the occasional personal foul.

I mean, who wouldn't take James Harrison right now? If he makes plays you take the good with the bad.

My concern with Fairley is how he will react if he isn't the main focus. I think he has some mental, me first type issues.

Tombstone RJ
01-20-2011, 09:27 AM
It absolutely would not. They have more picks than just the 2nd overall in this draft that can be used to address the Front 7.

This defense is not being rebuilt in a single offseason either. It's such a short-sighted to view to say that the 2nd overall must be used on a Front 7 player.

If Peterson is a Suh-like prospect at corner, you take him. Period.

When you have the #2 pick of the draft, you have to score on that pick. You have two options: trade down or make the fricken pick COUNT!

I'm of the opinion that if Peterson is there and he's still touted as a true shut down corner and the best corner to come out in a long time, then you take him. What matters most is that the #2 pick makes the Broncos a better defense and a better team as a whole.

Personally, I think the Broncos should trade down a few spots and load up on as much defensive talent as possible, but that is probably easier said than done. What the Broncos can't do is reach on a player with the #2 pick. If they take a DT with the #2 and the guy ends up being disappointment or a bust, then the franchise is really, really hurt because it wasted a great opportunity.

Broncoman13
01-20-2011, 09:29 AM
Don't forget Vaughn, That dude was electric.

And you can't teach that kind of speed. I just don't think a dynamic punt/kick returner should weigh heavily in your evaluation of Peterson. If you think he can be a Champ Bailey type shutdown corner, fine. Keep in mind, Champ was a great return man and even an offensive weapon early in his career and in his college days.

PRBronco
01-20-2011, 09:30 AM
I disagree. When's the last time we had a guy we could put back to return punts and kicks and honestly feel like we could turn around field position?



I'll give you a hint. It was a new year's eve and Brandon Marshall's cousin was starting a fight with a thug.

baja
01-20-2011, 09:30 AM
There is a lot more that worries me about Fairley.

Me too.

Takes plays off.

Doesn't play well with others. ;D

vancejohnson82
01-20-2011, 09:31 AM
Playing in Mile High really negates the potential of a kick returner. Too many touch backs. Punts have similar issues bc of hang time. Eddie Royal is a dynamic return man and I really liked what Decker did the last few weeks of the season returning Kicks.

Something happened with Royal. Why wouldn't he be back there more often? Are Decker and Vaughn better than him? I think Peterson is absolutely electric and would love to see him back there next year

I would also like to see him starting as our nickel guy and then take over the role of corner opposite of Bailey by midseason

Dedhed
01-20-2011, 09:32 AM
Same here. Not worried about him being a dirty player though. If that's what gives him the edge and he is making consistent plays then you take the occasional personal foul.

I mean, who wouldn't take James Harrison right now? If he makes plays you take the good with the bad.

My concern with Fairley is how he will react if he isn't the main focus. I think he has some mental, me first type issues.
I agree completely. I think there are a lot of red flags with the guy. I think he has the potential to be a great player, but I have serious questions that he'll ever reach that potential in anything other than a contract year.

He seems like an "I'll play if it suits me" kind of guy. Albert Haynesworth just got paid a bazillion dollars to do nothing because playing within the skins framework didn't suit his ego. There's a higher probability than I'm comfortable with of Fairley being the same way. That would be crippling for this franchise in it's current state.

ICON
01-20-2011, 09:33 AM
Great news if true.

vancejohnson82
01-20-2011, 09:35 AM
I'll give you a hint. It was a new year's eve and Brandon Marshall's cousin was starting a fight with a thug.

D-Will wasn't that kind of a guy...he was decent but not the kinda guy that makes you hold your breath whenever he touches the ball

Royal was like that in 2008 but I dont know what happened after that...before that I would say that it was Deltha O'Neal for about 3 kicks

DrFate
01-20-2011, 09:35 AM
It is my sincere belief that the bust potential of a DL is much higher than a guy like Peterson. Too many DLine picks turn into Courtney Brown. Yes this team needs DLine help. More than a lot. But this franchise is REALLY set back if the #2 pick becomes yet another fat guy bust.

underrated29
01-20-2011, 09:42 AM
Peterson is going to be a saftey. Just watch. Prince is regarded as the better shut down corner. peterson is better on press and zone.


Peterson as a corner will not be better than champ or asamougha, imo.

Hulamau
01-20-2011, 09:42 AM
Not saying it's the smart move but imagine the boost to Peterson's career to learn under Champ and imagine the defensive options with those two in the secondary and Goodman in the nickel.

That would be as close to a lock down secondary as you're likely to see.

24champ
01-20-2011, 09:44 AM
I'll believe that Champ signs when the ink is dry...

They've been saying they will resign him for years.

BroncosMT
01-20-2011, 09:45 AM
That would be as close to a lock down secondary as you're likely to see.

agreed and maybe we can address the DL in the second round....and through FA

Hulamau
01-20-2011, 09:45 AM
It is my sincere belief that the bust potential of a DL is much higher than a guy like Peterson. Too many DLine picks turn into Courtney Brown. Yes this team needs DLine help. More than a lot. But this franchise is REALLY set back if the #2 pick becomes yet another fat guy bust.

True enough on the bust potential. Will see how they address the line in FA. The have to in the draft as well whether its at the number 2 pick or the second round but there will be some solid DT/DE available during the 2nd round too... Peterson is intriguing ... will see how it goes

Dedhed
01-20-2011, 09:46 AM
When you have the #2 pick of the draft, you have to score on that pick. You have two options: trade down or make the fricken pick COUNT!

I'm of the opinion that if Peterson is there and he's still touted as a true shut down corner and the best corner to come out in a long time, then you take him. What matters most is that the #2 pick makes the Broncos a better defense and a better team as a whole.

Personally, I think the Broncos should trade down a few spots and load up on as much defensive talent as possible, but that is probably easier said than done. What the Broncos can't do is reach on a player with the #2 pick. If they take a DT with the #2 and the guy ends up being disappointment or a bust, then the franchise is really, really hurt because it wasted a great opportunity.
Peterson makes all the sense in the world for this team.

We absolutely need to score with this pick. Highly touted DBs have a tremendous success rate when taken high in the first round. Peterson is probably the most exciting CB prospect to come along since Champ, who turned out okay.

Dedhed
01-20-2011, 09:50 AM
It is my sincere belief that the bust potential of a DL is much higher than a guy like Peterson. Too many DLine picks turn into Courtney Brown. Yes this team needs DLine help. More than a lot. But this franchise is REALLY set back if the #2 pick becomes yet another fat guy bust.

This is my stance as well. This franchise is in deep tar if this pick fails. Rarely does the most talented player make up the safest option, but that's the case with Peterson this year.

DrFate
01-20-2011, 09:55 AM
None of the available options are Ndamukong Suh - I wish they were. But all the possible Dlinemen scare me. Isn't Fairley something of a one-year wonder?

Requiem
01-20-2011, 09:56 AM
There are quality DB's (more so CB) and DL's all over the board in this draft. As long as quality players are selected at each selection, it really shouldn't matter where the need was addressed, as long as it was.

The question is, which is the safer pick at #2?

I'd say the Peterson route, but can understand why people are clamoring for Bowers/Fairley. If I'm selecting at two, I'm looking at the play these guys have demonstrated on the field, their leadership abilities and how/where they can make an impact on this team. I see Peterson bringing much more to the table in all these regards than Fairley.

A gentle reminder to everyone: The defense will not be fixed in one season.

We have four selections in the top seventy picks this draft and if most of them go towards the defense, it is a great start.

My first move is to look to trade down, if that isn't happening, I take Peterson more than likely. Dareus gets more consideration than Fairley because he has proven himself more and can play multiple positions in multiple fronts.

Other than Prince, there is no other DB mentioned in the first 20 picks aside him, but their are myriads of DL mentioned in those selections

Quinn, Dareus, Fairley, Bowers, Smith, Clayborn, Paea, Kerrigan, Jordan, Watt, Heyward, Bailey and Liuget are all considered first-round talents at this juncture, or damn close. Not all of them are going to go in round one, but you can just see the depth there.

With depth like that, it doesn't necessitate DL having to be the pick at #2.

Short-sightedness and ultimatums aren't going to help anyone on this board over the next few months.

So those using them might want to gain a little perspective moving forward.

Broncoman13
01-20-2011, 09:56 AM
Peterson makes all the sense in the world for this team.

We absolutely need to score with this pick. Highly touted DBs have a tremendous success rate when taken high in the first round. Peterson is probably the most exciting CB prospect to come along since Champ, who turned out okay.

This is very true. Even guys that were not highly touted have had a fair amount of success as first round picks. Joe Haden did great as a rookie. McCourtey should be DPOY but will have a tough time beating out Suh. Unless you're the Broncos, first round CB play pretty well!

Why does Underrated say he isn't a shut down corner? I haven't seen anything to suggest he won't be. Be like to point at his bowl game as a poor game. What I saw was every one of the Tiger's DBs making plays as A&M quit looking Peterson's way in the 2nd half. That is probably my biggest issue with taking a CB in the first round. You can simply avoid them and really limit their impact in a game. Of course, having Bailey on the other side makes it a little easier.

I wouldn't be disappointed with Peterson, if he truly grades out as the best CB to come out in the past 5-10 years. But I still would prefer DL. I think Bowers will grade out pretty well. If he doesn't end up the first overall pick I think we could do a lot worse. We made a mistake in passing on Orakpo, I hope we don't make another mistake in passing on a stud DL like Bowers.

Chris
01-20-2011, 09:56 AM
Bust potential is not a good reason to avoid drafting DL. There's a reason they go as high as they do... if they pan out they can turn your whole team around. We need help there most.

The defense can't be fixed in one season... I agree. That's why we need to go after DL now so by year 3 they're ready to go.

DrFate
01-20-2011, 09:59 AM
Bust potential is not a good reason to avoid drafting DL. There's a reason they go as high as they do... if they pan out they can turn your whole team around. We need help there most.


So if there is a 70% chance a Dlineman busts but a 20% chance another Dplayer busts, you ignore that? (those numbers are entirely fictional, of course)

Chris
01-20-2011, 10:01 AM
Why does Underrated say he isn't a shut down corner? I haven't seen anything to suggest he won't be. Be like to point at his bowl game as a poor game. What I saw was every one of the Tiger's DBs making plays as A&M quit looking Peterson's way in the 2nd half. That is probably my biggest issue with taking a CB in the first round. You can simply avoid them and really limit their impact in a game. Of course, having Bailey on the other side makes it a little easier.

Look at offensive teams like the Pats and the Colts... they can throw to any number of guys to make plays these days.

Dedhed
01-20-2011, 10:02 AM
None of the available options are Ndamukong Suh - I wish they were. But all the possible Dlinemen scare me. Isn't Fairley something of a one-year wonder?If Suh came out this year, it would be a no brainer, but there simply is not a DL prospect like him in the draft this year.

Chris
01-20-2011, 10:02 AM
So if there is a 70% chance a Dlineman busts but a 20% chance another Dplayer busts, you ignore that? (those numbers are entirely fictional, of course)

I don't think the numbers are that disparate. I'm saying to get this team in shape the thing we need most is DL... and we're going to have to take a risk in the draft there. We're going to need good evaluation and some luck for that pick to pan out but if it does it will be huge for our defense.

PRBronco
01-20-2011, 10:04 AM
So if there is a 70% chance a Dlineman busts but a 20% chance another Dplayer busts, you ignore that? (those numbers are entirely fictional, of course)

I just can't buy into thinking that a player's position makes it more likely he'll be a bust. It's a ridiculous notion.

Requiem
01-20-2011, 10:07 AM
Bust potential is not a good reason to avoid drafting DL. There's a reason they go as high as they do... if they pan out they can turn your whole team around. We need help there most.

The defense can't be fixed in one season... I agree. That's why we need to go after DL now so by year 3 they're ready to go.

It isn't the only reason I presented in my post, so if you weren't able to soak up all the other arguments, that is your fault.

Peterson is going to grade out on almost every team's board as a top three prospect in this draft, and of of the true elite or blue-chippers available.

The three DL right now with probably the highest grades are:

Bowers, Dareus and Fairley. Quinn might go ahead on some people's boards because of pure pass-rushing ability, but I ignore him all together (and his teammate) for being turds @ NC.

Each respectively deserve top ten rankings based on this past season. However, you have a bunch of players after them who had great seasons. Players in some regards, who might have better pro-translation or consistency to their game that will make their ability to have an impact better than the aforementioned.

Please tell me why DL needs to be the pick at #2 with all the names possible of going in the first round? I just listed possible first rounders. One of those players is going to be there at #36. Another will probably be there at the Miami selection too.

I highly doubt that DL will take up a 1/3 of round one this year.

Hell, Denver could have Patrick Peterson and trade up and get one of their top defensive front seven players in the draft if they wanted to.

There are a million ways they can go about this.

Not drafting DL at #2 doesn't mean we fail.

Dedhed
01-20-2011, 10:10 AM
That is probably my biggest issue with taking a CB in the first round. You can simply avoid them and really limit their impact in a game.
This is a take that drives me nuts: "Simply take your #1 receiver out of the equation, and the CB has no impact".

How can anyone think that taking the #1 WR out of the game plan is not having an impact on the game?

That's crazy to me.

DrFate
01-20-2011, 10:11 AM
I just can't buy into thinking that a player's position makes it more likely he'll be a bust. It's a ridiculous notion.

Maybe I'm overly biased by the name players who have gone top 5 and done absolutely nothing over the past 10 years - but I'm comfortable saying that DLineman bust MORE than other positions. If anyone has free time, it would be some good information...

Dedhed
01-20-2011, 10:13 AM
I just can't buy into thinking that a player's position makes it more likely he'll be a bust. It's a ridiculous notion.
It's not the position that makes them more likely to bust, it's the type of person.

underrated29
01-20-2011, 10:15 AM
I said it because he is not as good in man to man shut down as Prince is. Now I am not saying he is not good at all. he is still a freaking beast, but he is better in zone and press. I also think he is a bit tight in the hips. He would still be a top corner in the league, but imo not as good as champ or aso...Because of his size and speed, I think he will get moved to Saftey.

Chris- what you think? Think that is pretty close. You study these guys a lot lot more than i do.

PRBronco
01-20-2011, 10:15 AM
Maybe I'm overly biased by the name players who have gone top 5 and done absolutely nothing over the past 10 years - but I'm comfortable saying that DLineman bust MORE than other positions. If anyone has free time, it would be some good information...

I used to apply that rule to wide receivers, I hated the idea of a receiver in the first, but on a slow work day I went over the last 10 drafts and there was a lot more successes than busts. I figured it's just easier to remember the busts. If work slows down I might do the same with linemen :)

Boobs McGee
01-20-2011, 10:16 AM
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Dedhed
01-20-2011, 10:17 AM
Maybe I'm overly biased by the name players who have gone top 5 and done absolutely nothing over the past 10 years - but I'm comfortable saying that DLineman bust MORE than other positions. If anyone has free time, it would be some good information...

There are already posts on the forum that pertain to that, and your fictional #s aren't far off.

The only CB or DB bust taken in the top 15 since 2000 is Deltha O'neal taken by you know who at #15.

Every other CB or DB taken in the top 15 has developed into at the very least a solid starter, with the vast majority being very much above average for their positions.

The DTs taken in the top 10 had about a 40% chance of being utter failures.

oubronco
01-20-2011, 10:18 AM
It isn't the only reason I presented in my post, so if you weren't able to soak up all the other arguments, that is your fault.

Peterson is going to grade out on almost every team's board as a top three prospect in this draft, and of of the true elite or blue-chippers available.

The three DL right now with probably the highest grades are:

Bowers, Dareus and Fairley. Quinn might go ahead on some people's boards because of pure pass-rushing ability, but I ignore him all together (and his teammate) for being turds @ NC.

Each respectively deserve top ten rankings based on this past season. However, you have a bunch of players after them who had great seasons. Players in some regards, who might have better pro-translation or consistency to their game that will make their ability to have an impact better than the aforementioned.

Please tell me why DL needs to be the pick at #2 with all the names possible of going in the first round? I just listed possible first rounders. One of those players is going to be there at #36. Another will probably be there at the Miami selection too.

I highly doubt that DL will take up a 1/3 of round one this year.

Hell, Denver could have Patrick Peterson and trade up and get one of their top defensive front seven players in the draft if they wanted to.

There are a million ways they can go about this.

Not drafting DL at #2 doesn't mean we fail.

I would love to see them come out of the draft with Dareus and Paea

DrFate
01-20-2011, 10:18 AM
If work slows down I might do the same with linemen :)

Please do :sunshine:

PRBronco
01-20-2011, 10:20 AM
It's not the position that makes them more likely to bust, it's the type of person.

Exactly! Work ethic, mental toughness, desire, and also not being made of glass.

Requiem
01-20-2011, 10:23 AM
I would love to see them come out of the draft with Dareus and Paea

If they wanted to, they really could. ^5

PRBronco
01-20-2011, 10:29 AM
If they wanted to, they really could. ^5

If they end up moving Orton for a second, I will be internet clamouring for them to package 2 seconds for a late first...Paea or Heyward territory maybe.

Requiem
01-20-2011, 10:32 AM
If they end up moving Orton for a second, I will be internet clamouring for them to package 2 seconds for a late first...Paea or Heyward territory maybe.

The two seconds we have now would put is in the middle of the first round, IIRC. Our earliest second and early third get us near ~ 20. I'm thinking a lot of trades are going to be happening in this draft.

PRBronco
01-20-2011, 10:36 AM
The two seconds we have now would put is in the middle of the first round, IIRC. Our earliest second and early third get us near ~ 20. I'm thinking a lot of trades are going to be happening in this draft.

Lol imagine if McD was still in charge? That would be hard to keep up with. Last year my buddy and I decided we would drink every time a trade was made (among other rules). I would get alcohol poisoning if McD was in charge this year :(

✡✡ JOSHUA ✡✡
01-20-2011, 10:38 AM
Other good news:

If the Jets win this Sunday, Champ Bailey will be selected to his record 10th Pro Bowl as a cornerback!

He will be sporting the pretty Broncos helmet in Honolulu again!

http://www.exposay.com/celebrity-photos/champ-bailey-and-john-lynch-2007-pro-bowl-afc-photo-day-gNTmYe.jpg

bronco militia
01-20-2011, 10:40 AM
we'll see...

woody's word is not good enough for me. It would be great news if true

cutthemdown
01-20-2011, 10:41 AM
I was never worried really. No team would just let Bailey walk without tagging or trading. And to the person who thinks the price is steep I think its right what a top 5 corner in the NFL should make. Right about 7-9 mill a yr.

Dedhed
01-20-2011, 10:42 AM
I would love to see them come out of the draft with Dareus and Paea

I mentioned this as a dream scenario in another thread, and I would certainly come off the Peterson bandwagon if we could parlay pick #2 into Dareus and Paea.

Imagine this:

1a Dareus
1b Paea
2a Rahim Moore
2b Jimmy Smith (for Orton)
2c Joseph Barksdale OT

CEH
01-20-2011, 10:43 AM
Heard Bill Parcells speak about how he approaches a draft
Bill has had pretty good track record turning around woe full 1-4 wins teams more than a few times and he said he always builds from the inside out and will only select speciality players ie CB,S,WR when the front seven/Oline is stable. Dick LeBeau spoke last night and I got the same impression from him when asked what makes his defense so good year in and year out

If Peterson is head and shoulders a better grade than the Dlineman say a top 3 pick vs a top 15 pick then yes but if he's top 3 and they have DLineman that fit the scheme graded top 8 I would select the top 8 Dlineman over the top 3 CB.

Obviously the numbers are for example purposes but there is a point where grade trumps grade+need. Not sure exactly where that is right now

Smiling Assassin27
01-20-2011, 10:45 AM
In today's mailbag on the Post, Woody says he has been told in good faith the Broncos will re-sign him to a 4 year $42 million deal or put the franchise tag on him

Was he holding a Seagrams bottle when he wrote that?

mr007
01-20-2011, 10:45 AM
Not saying it's the smart move but imagine the boost to Peterson's career to learn under Champ and imagine the defensive options with those two in the secondary and Goodman in the nickel.

Ummm except for the fact that we don't effin' need a corner.

tsiguy96
01-20-2011, 10:46 AM
Heard Bill Parcells speak about how he approaches a draft
Bill has had pretty good track record turning around woe full 1-4 wins teams more than a few times and he said he always builds from the inside out and will only select speciality players ie CB,S,WR when the front seven/Oline is stable. Dick LeBeau spoke last night and I got the same impression from him when asked what makes his defense so good year in and year out

If Peterson is head and shoulders a better grade than the Dlineman say a top 3 pick vs a top 15 pick then yes but if he's top 3 and they have DLineman that fit the scheme graded top 8 I would select the top 8 Dlineman over the top 3 CB.

Obviously the numbers are for example purposes but there is a point where grade trumps grade+need. Not sure exactly where that is right now

exactly. weve seen how helpful a top 3 CB is to a great defense it bascially isnt. for years people have been talking about building the dline, now people want to spend yet another pick on a CB. dont care if he is the best player in the draft, its not going to help this defense become great again.

Dedhed
01-20-2011, 10:47 AM
Heard Bill Parcells speak about how he approaches a draft
Bill has had pretty good track record turning around woe full 1-4 wins teams more than a few times and he said he always builds from the inside out and will only select speciality players ie CB,S,WR when the front seven/Oline is stable. Dick LeBeau spoke last night and I got the same impression from him when asked what makes his defense so good year in and year out


The Steelers have very rarely taken a DL in the first round, and their best pick ever was a first round DB.

Dedhed
01-20-2011, 10:49 AM
Ummm except for the fact that we don't effin' need a corner.
Good take. Well reasoned and supported with relevant data.

Lestat
01-20-2011, 10:53 AM
that's actually less than i thought he would get. so i'm all for that deal.

Broncoman13
01-20-2011, 10:55 AM
This is a take that drives me nuts: "Simply take your #1 receiver out of the equation, and the CB has no impact".

How can anyone think that taking the #1 WR out of the game plan is not having an impact on the game?

That's crazy to me.

B/c guys like Collie/Garcon, Welker, Wallace, Holmes, and Driver make their livings off of being 2nd options. In fact if you look at teams like the Chargers, Saints, Patriots, Colts and Packers it doesn't do you a lot of good. If Champ Bailey locks down Reggie Wayne for the entire game and Manning hits you with Collie, Garcon and White. Unless you put pressure on those QBs they are just gonna find their 2nd and 3rd Options.

Boss Man
01-20-2011, 10:58 AM
The Steelers have very rarely taken a DL in the first round, and their best pick ever was a first round DB.

The fact remains. They always have a very good defensive line. Whether they just develop late round talent well or whatever is irrelevant. We have had zero success. Outside of dumervil in turning out any dlineman. The issue is in the front 7. Not the secpndary. Peterson is just a" sexy" pick. That's is why he is getting hyped up for den.

razorwire77
01-20-2011, 11:02 AM
It absolutely would not. They have more picks than just the 2nd overall in this draft that can be used to address the Front 7.

This defense is not being rebuilt in a single offseason either. It's such a short-sighted to view to say that the 2nd overall must be used on a Front 7 player.

If Peterson is a Suh-like prospect at corner, you take him. Period.

Rep. We have so many holes on defense, that we should take the best defensive player. If that's Peterson so be it. There will be an opportunity to draft front 7 with pick 2A, 2B and whatever pick we get for Orton. We're simply not going to plug all of the holes, introduce a new DC's scheme and field a top flight defense in one year. We need to hit on multiple players, in multiple drafts to fix this defense. We also have questionable depth beyond Champ in the secondary (with Goodman's injuries and Cox's rapies). Peterson is also a top flight return man as well.

strafen
01-20-2011, 11:03 AM
Some food for thought...
Kiper has us picking Peterson with our 2nd pick...

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/insider/news/story?page=KiperMockDraft1.0&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl %2fdraft2011%2finsider%2fnews%2fstory%3fpage%3dKip erMockDraft1.0

Rascal
01-20-2011, 11:03 AM
exactly. weve seen how helpful a top 3 CB is to a great defense it bascially isnt. for years people have been talking about building the dline, now people want to spend yet another pick on a CB. dont care if he is the best player in the draft, its not going to help this defense become great again.

One single player isn't going to make this defense become great.

Broncoman13
01-20-2011, 11:06 AM
The Steelers haven't had a need to draft DL early b/c they hit on their first round picks. Smith, Hampton, Hood, Biesell(sp?) make it so they don't have to reach early. And you will see them take players late in the first that take a couple years to develop. But they have players in place to ease that development. We aren't in the same position. We can't afford to wait on guys for two or three years to develop right now.

Gcver2ver3
01-20-2011, 11:18 AM
Some food for thought...
Kiper has us picking Peterson with our 2nd pick...

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/insider/news/story?page=KiperMockDraft1.0&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl %2fdraft2011%2finsider%2fnews%2fstory%3fpage%3dKip erMockDraft1.0

ok, so peterson is out for sure then...

epicSocialism4tw
01-20-2011, 11:20 AM
Baja, drafting Peterson would be the worst possible move this franchise could make with that pick, PARTICULARLY if we sign Champ.

We've got arguably 7-9 positions that could use an upgrade before CB, at that point.

Honestly, drafting Peterson would just be a disaster for this franchise.

Yeah, lets hope that this new management crew have the awareness to see the problems on the roster, and to address those.

The Broncos simply cant afford to waste opportunities to shore up important positions by taking equally risky shots at players who play positions that already are strengths.

This team does not need another high round DB. In the last couple of years a first rounder has been used on a CB, and a second rounder used on a FS. They need to snag a free agent SS and a RB and draft DL, TE, and LB.

epicSocialism4tw
01-20-2011, 11:24 AM
The Steelers haven't had a need to draft DL early b/c they hit on their first round picks. Smith, Hampton, Hood, Biesell(sp?) make it so they don't have to reach early. And you will see them take players late in the first that take a couple years to develop. But they have players in place to ease that development. We aren't in the same position. We can't afford to wait on guys for two or three years to develop right now.

The Steelers and Ravens both have made it a habit to constantly replenish their defensive and offensive lines with early round picks. They do it every year.

We heard the same argument you gave above back when Haloti Ngata was right there for our taking, and last year when Maurkice Pouncey could have been ours instead of D.Thomas.

Those teams have consistently awesome DL's and OL's (they can run the ball and defend the run) because they consistently invest in their lines.

Heck, John Fox's group did the same thing in Carolina.

Its time that we started doing the same. No more flash players...bring on the substance.

Broncoman13
01-20-2011, 11:40 AM
The Steelers and Ravens both have made it a habit to constantly replenish their defensive and offensive lines with early round picks. They do it every year.

We heard the same argument you gave above back when Haloti Ngata was right there for our taking, and last year when Maurkice Pouncey could have been ours instead of D.Thomas.

Those teams have consistently awesome DL's and OL's (they can run the ball and defend the run) because they consistently invest in their lines.

Heck, John Fox's group did the same thing in Carolina.

Its time that we started doing the same. No more flash players...bring on the substance.

Right but they generally draft two years in front of their projected needs. They didn't need a DE when they drafted Ziggy Hood. Pouncey was a need pick and they were able to get good value in the middle of the first. But generally speaking, they draft ahead of time for projected needs. Mt. Cody wasn't a need for Baltimore. Ron Brace wasn't a need for NE. But in two years when Wilfork and Hampton are slowing down, they have guys that are ready to step in!

My point is, we don't have guys in place right now to give us two years to develop them. I was all in favor of drafting Ngata... and Pouncey. Hell, I wouldn't mind taking Pouncey's brother this year if he falls to the 2nd!

epicSocialism4tw
01-20-2011, 11:45 AM
Right but they generally draft two years in front of their projected needs. They didn't need a DE when they drafted Ziggy Hood. Pouncey was a need pick and they were able to get good value in the middle of the first. But generally speaking, they draft ahead of time for projected needs. Mt. Cody wasn't a need for Baltimore. Ron Brace wasn't a need for NE. But in two years when Wilfork and Hampton are slowing down, they have guys that are ready to step in!

My point is, we don't have guys in place right now to give us two years to develop them. I was all in favor of drafting Ngata... and Pouncey. Hell, I wouldn't mind taking Pouncey's brother this year if he falls to the 2nd!

Lets face it.

This is a multiple-year rebuilding project at this point. You dont want to postpone the building (not re-building because we never built it in the first place) of the critical positions on your roster just because theres a flashier player at a position that you already have covered for the next few years.

You have to start building some time. The time is now for the Broncos. Build the lines.

Agamemnon
01-20-2011, 11:48 AM
People who want us to take Peterson at #2 are morons. Thank you for your time.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-20-2011, 11:51 AM
Peterson is an impact player, regardless of scheme. A player who can contribute from day one for the duration of his career. Never stupid to get a player like that.

What we actually do, I'm on the fence about. I want to build the lines as much as the next guy. But a guy with Peterson's measurables comes along so seldom... hard to pass on a big talent like that.

BigPlayShay
01-20-2011, 11:51 AM
In this same mailbag, Woodrow referred to Dom Capers as, Defensive Coordinator for the Bears. So....

Carmelo15
01-20-2011, 12:25 PM
Not saying it would be the best choice but I don't think it would be a disaster to get the best player in the draft. We still have two high second round picks in a draft that is deep in DL players plus free agency. A disaster would be drafting a one year wonder with the 2nd overall pick that turns out to be a bust.

cosign

Inkana7
01-20-2011, 12:26 PM
In this same mailbag, Woodrow referred to Dom Capers as, Defensive Coordinator for the Bears. So....

He also said that Richardson started dismantling the Panthers after they reached the NFC Championship in 2008, when they actually lost in the Divisional round that year.

Broncoman13
01-20-2011, 12:34 PM
Lets face it.

This is a multiple-year rebuilding project at this point. You dont want to postpone the building (not re-building because we never built it in the first place) of the critical positions on your roster just because theres a flashier player at a position that you already have covered for the next few years.

You have to start building some time. The time is now for the Broncos. Build the lines.

Oh I'm not disagreeing with you. I think we should build inside first. I am just saying when you have as many holes as we have on defense you can pretty much take BPA on defense and fill a need. Whether that need is now or a year or two down the road, we need players at every defensive position.

Makes sense to go DL first b/c they have a greater impact on every play.

baja
01-20-2011, 12:51 PM
People who want us to take Peterson at #2 are morons. Thank you for your time.

And another astute poster joins the new Mane.

You nubes bring much.

Dedhed
01-20-2011, 12:55 PM
They always have a very good defensive line. Whether they just develop late round talent well or whatever is irrelevant.

Actually, in discussing the draft it's completely relevant. In discussing how to build a successful franchise it's completely relevant.

About the only reason you would say it's irrelevant is because it debases your opinion.

Dedhed
01-20-2011, 12:56 PM
People who want us to take Peterson at #2 are morons. Thank you for your time.
Wow. Thanks for really adding to the discussion. I'm sure your insight has persuaded many.

broncswin
01-20-2011, 01:02 PM
Love hearing this news...now we need to lock up a mean mother****er with that number 2 pick and build that line with the other early picks!!

Just a thought, who would be a reasonable answer opposite Champ? IYHO

schaaf
01-20-2011, 01:05 PM
For The last Ten Drafts In The Top 15.

I will mention what number they were selected and give my opinion on if bust or not.

D-Line---

1999-
15. Anthony McFarland-Average to a little above average DT
16. Jevon Kearse- Stud

2000
1. Courtney Brown- could have been 'alright' not in the league anymore.
6. Corey Simon- 1 Pro Bowl, retired in 2007
13. Shaun Ellis- Very good selection
14. John Abraham- Another Very good selection

2001
3. Gerard Warren--...bust
4. Justin Smith- solid player
6. Richard Seymour- very good selection
7. Andre Carter- has revamped his career in Washington
10. Jamal Reynolds- bust
12. Damione Lewis- average
13. Marcus Stroud- 3x pro bowl selection

2002
2. Julius Peppers- Beast
6. Ryan Sims- Bust
9. John Henderson- 2x pro bowl selection, hasn't done anything lately
11. Dwight Freeney- Stud
12. Wendell Bryant- Currently playing in the UFL
15. Albert Haynesworth- very talented, cancer for any team

2003
4. Dewayne Robertson- worked out great for us :)
6. Johnathan Sullivan- bust
9. Kevin Williams- stud
10 Terrell Suggs- beast, decided to put him in as a DE/OLB
12. Jimmy Kennedy- bust
13. Ty Warren- Solid player
14. Michael Haynes- bust
15. Jerome McDougle- bust

2004-
14. Tommie Harris- Pro Bowler

2005-
11. Demarcus Ware- Stud OLB/DE
16. Travis Johnson- Bust

2006-
1. Mario Williams- Pro Bowl Player
12. Haloti Ngata- Beast
13. Kamerion Wimbley- had a good season with the raiders
14. Brodrick Bunkley- average

2007-
4. Gaines Adams- situational pass rusher
8. Jamaal Anderson- bust
10. Amobi Okoye- average player
13. Adam Carriker- started every game this last year, average
16. Justin Harrel- bust

2008-
2. Chris Long- above average DE
5. Glenn Dorsey- did okay this last year
6. Vernon Gholston- bust
7. Sedrick Ellis- had a very good year this year, above average
8. Derrick Harvey- had 12 tackles and 2.5 sacks this year, below average.

2009-
3. Tyson Jackson- ask chiefs fans haha
9. B.J. Raji- very good selection
11. Aaron Maybin- too early but bills consider him a disappointment
13. Brian Orakpo- good pass rusher, pro bowler
16. Larry English- Too early, average

2010-
2. Ndamukong Suh- Beast
3. Gerald McCoy- looked pretty good his rookie year
10. Tyson Alualu- named to the all rookie team, looks solid
13. Brandon Graham-started 6 games, with 3 sacks.
15. Jason Pierre-Paul- 30 tackles, 4.5 sacks, behind Tuck and Umenyiora.
16. Derrick Morgan- average, too early too tell

In My own opinion with picking a D-Lineman in the top half of the First round gives you a 34.5% chance of getting an above average player.

Now On To Secondary

1999
7. Champ Bailey- Arguably best ever.
10. Chris Mcallister- 3x pro bowl selection

2000
15. Deltha O'Neal- Bust

2001
NONE

2002
5. Quentin Jammer- Average to above average Corner
8. Roy Williams- 5x Pro Bowl Selection

2003
5. Terrence Newman- 2x Pro Bowl Selection
11. Marcus Trufant- 1 Pro Bowl Selection, Above Average
16. Troy Polamalu- Arguably Best Safety in the League

2004-
5. Sean Taylor- 2x pro bowl selection, all pro
8. Deangelo Hall- Pro Bowler
10. Dunta Robinson- Above average CB

2005-
6. Adam Jones- talented, but retarded
8. Antrel Rolle- Pro Bowler
9. Carlos Rogers- Above Average CB

2006-
7. Michael Huff-bust
8. Donte Whitner- had a good 2010, below average
15. Tye Hill- bust
16. Jason Allen- six int's in 2010, above average

2007-
6. Laron Landry- Pro Bowler
14. Darrelle Revis- Beast

2008-
11. Leodis McKelvin- average
16. Dominique Rodgers- Cromartie- Pro Bowler

2009-
14. Malcom Jenkins- average to above average CB

2010-
5. Eric Berry- young, already a stud
7. Joe Haden- 6 ints, going to be dang good
14. Earl Thomas- average right now, tons of potential

In my Opinion out of the top half of the first round over the last eleven years 69% of the secondary players taken are above average-all pro's this is my own findings and you guys can talk about it and come up with your own assessment of each player.

Discuss :strong:

PRBronco
01-20-2011, 01:07 PM
Love hearing this news...now we need to lock up a mean mother****er with that number 2 pick and build that line with the other early picks!!

Just a thought, who would be a reasonable answer opposite Champ? IYHO

You mean who should play the other side? If healthy, Goodman is perfectly fine. Also Rapey McAllegedly can hold his own if we have a modicum of pass rush.

broncswin
01-20-2011, 01:11 PM
You mean who should play the other side? If healthy, Goodman is perfectly fine. Also Rapey McAllegedly can hold his own if we have a modicum of pass rush.

I like goodman, but the damn guy doesn't know how tackle and his hands seem to fail him most of the time, but I guess he is the safe bet. As for Coxburner, the jury is still out.

schaaf
01-20-2011, 01:17 PM
and I'm not a Peterson or Fairley guy, I just know that with this pick it seems unlikely we can trade out of it and we cannot screw this pick up. To me it indicates that Peterson has a lot more of a chance of not becoming a bust down the road.

Chris
01-20-2011, 01:37 PM
For The last Ten Drafts In The Top 15.

I will mention what number they were selected and give my opinion on if bust or not.

D-Line---

1999-
15. Anthony McFarland-Average to a little above average DT
16. Jevon Kearse- Stud

2000
1. Courtney Brown- could have been 'alright' not in the league anymore.
6. Corey Simon- 1 Pro Bowl, retired in 2007
13. Shaun Ellis- Very good selection
14. John Abraham- Another Very good selection

2001
3. Gerard Warren--...bust
4. Justin Smith- solid player
6. Richard Seymour- very good selection
7. Andre Carter- has revamped his career in Washington
10. Jamal Reynolds- bust
12. Damione Lewis- average
13. Marcus Stroud- 3x pro bowl selection

2002
2. Julius Peppers- Beast
6. Ryan Sims- Bust
9. John Henderson- 2x pro bowl selection, hasn't done anything lately
11. Dwight Freeney- Stud
12. Wendell Bryant- Currently playing in the UFL
15. Albert Haynesworth- very talented, cancer for any team

2003
4. Dewayne Robertson- worked out great for us :)
6. Johnathan Sullivan- bust
9. Kevin Williams- stud
10 Terrell Suggs- beast, decided to put him in as a DE/OLB
12. Jimmy Kennedy- bust
13. Ty Warren- Solid player
14. Michael Haynes- bust
15. Jerome McDougle- bust

2004-
14. Tommie Harris- Pro Bowler

2005-
11. Demarcus Ware- Stud OLB/DE
16. Travis Johnson- Bust

2006-
1. Mario Williams- Pro Bowl Player
12. Haloti Ngata- Beast
13. Kamerion Wimbley- had a good season with the raiders
14. Brodrick Bunkley- average

2007-
4. Gaines Adams- situational pass rusher
8. Jamaal Anderson- bust
10. Amobi Okoye- average player
13. Adam Carriker- started every game this last year, average
16. Justin Harrel- bust

2008-
2. Chris Long- above average DE
5. Glenn Dorsey- did okay this last year
6. Vernon Gholston- bust
7. Sedrick Ellis- had a very good year this year, above average
8. Derrick Harvey- had 12 tackles and 2.5 sacks this year, below average.

2009-
3. Tyson Jackson- ask chiefs fans haha
9. B.J. Raji- very good selection
11. Aaron Maybin- too early but bills consider him a disappointment
13. Brian Orakpo- good pass rusher, pro bowler
16. Larry English- Too early, average

2010-
2. Ndamukong Suh- Beast
3. Gerald McCoy- looked pretty good his rookie year
10. Tyson Alualu- named to the all rookie team, looks solid
13. Brandon Graham-started 6 games, with 3 sacks.
15. Jason Pierre-Paul- 30 tackles, 4.5 sacks, behind Tuck and Umenyiora.
16. Derrick Morgan- average, too early too tell

In My own opinion with picking a D-Lineman in the top half of the First round gives you a 34.5% chance of getting an above average player.

Now On To Secondary

1999
7. Champ Bailey- Arguably best ever.
10. Chris Mcallister- 3x pro bowl selection

2000
15. Deltha O'Neal- Bust

2001
NONE

2002
5. Quentin Jammer- Average to above average Corner
8. Roy Williams- 5x Pro Bowl Selection

2003
5. Terrence Newman- 2x Pro Bowl Selection
11. Marcus Trufant- 1 Pro Bowl Selection, Above Average
16. Troy Polamalu- Arguably Best Safety in the League

2004-
5. Sean Taylor- 2x pro bowl selection, all pro
8. Deangelo Hall- Pro Bowler
10. Dunta Robinson- Above average CB

2005-
6. Adam Jones- talented, but retarded
8. Antrel Rolle- Pro Bowler
9. Carlos Rogers- Above Average CB

2006-
7. Michael Huff-bust
8. Donte Whitner- had a good 2010, below average
15. Tye Hill- bust
16. Jason Allen- six int's in 2010, above average

2007-
6. Laron Landry- Pro Bowler
14. Darrelle Revis- Beast

2008-
11. Leodis McKelvin- average
16. Dominique Rodgers- Cromartie- Pro Bowler

2009-
14. Malcom Jenkins- average to above average CB

2010-
5. Eric Berry- young, already a stud
7. Joe Haden- 6 ints, going to be dang good
14. Earl Thomas- average right now, tons of potential

In my Opinion out of the top half of the first round over the last eleven years 69% of the secondary players taken are above average-all pro's this is my own findings and you guys can talk about it and come up with your own assessment of each player.

Discuss :strong:

Awesome stuff man. Any chance you could add 4-3 or 3-4 (or 4-3/3-4) for each of these?

schaaf
01-20-2011, 01:41 PM
I will be able to later this evening, that alone took me over thirty minutes. But what do you think about it now? I was leaning towards Fairley before I did this but after posting this it really makes me wonder and I am no longer leaning to one or the other.

I just know that this franchise cannot afford to miss on the second overall pick.

Borks147
01-20-2011, 01:42 PM
Actually Deltha O'Neal wasn't a bust...so it is higher than 69%

schaaf
01-20-2011, 01:45 PM
I agree with the above but I think a lot of people would consider him a bust.
*Edit* The statistics for the secondary may be a little higher than 69%. I dropped a few off that may be considered pretty good players. Also I am sure that I messed up on a few D-Line but this was my own opinion after looking them up and doing a little research on each one.

Hercules Rockefeller
01-20-2011, 01:46 PM
Warren isn't a bust either, the guy is still in the league and Gaines Adams is dead.

Chris
01-20-2011, 01:46 PM
I will be able to later this evening, that alone took me over thirty minutes. But what do you think about it now? I was leaning towards Fairley before I did this but after posting this it really makes me wonder and I am no longer leaning to one or the other.

I just know that this franchise cannot afford to miss on the second overall pick.

My position remains the same. We need DL much more. We have to roll the dice.

I'd still prefer to trade back if we can to increase our chances of hitting. There are going to be some DL guys in the late 1st / early 2nd that become beasts.

Gcver2ver3
01-20-2011, 01:48 PM
For The last Ten Drafts In The Top 15.

I will mention what number they were selected and give my opinion on if bust or not.

D-Line---

1999-
15. Anthony McFarland-Average to a little above average DT
16. Jevon Kearse- Stud

2000
1. Courtney Brown- could have been 'alright' not in the league anymore.
6. Corey Simon- 1 Pro Bowl, retired in 2007
13. Shaun Ellis- Very good selection
14. John Abraham- Another Very good selection

2001
3. Gerard Warren--...bust
4. Justin Smith- solid player
6. Richard Seymour- very good selection
7. Andre Carter- has revamped his career in Washington
10. Jamal Reynolds- bust
12. Damione Lewis- average
13. Marcus Stroud- 3x pro bowl selection

2002
2. Julius Peppers- Beast
6. Ryan Sims- Bust
9. John Henderson- 2x pro bowl selection, hasn't done anything lately
11. Dwight Freeney- Stud
12. Wendell Bryant- Currently playing in the UFL
15. Albert Haynesworth- very talented, cancer for any team

2003
4. Dewayne Robertson- worked out great for us :)
6. Johnathan Sullivan- bust
9. Kevin Williams- stud
10 Terrell Suggs- beast, decided to put him in as a DE/OLB
12. Jimmy Kennedy- bust
13. Ty Warren- Solid player
14. Michael Haynes- bust
15. Jerome McDougle- bust

2004-
14. Tommie Harris- Pro Bowler

2005-
11. Demarcus Ware- Stud OLB/DE
16. Travis Johnson- Bust

2006-
1. Mario Williams- Pro Bowl Player
12. Haloti Ngata- Beast
13. Kamerion Wimbley- had a good season with the raiders
14. Brodrick Bunkley- average

2007-
4. Gaines Adams- situational pass rusher
8. Jamaal Anderson- bust
10. Amobi Okoye- average player
13. Adam Carriker- started every game this last year, average
16. Justin Harrel- bust

2008-
2. Chris Long- above average DE
5. Glenn Dorsey- did okay this last year
6. Vernon Gholston- bust
7. Sedrick Ellis- had a very good year this year, above average
8. Derrick Harvey- had 12 tackles and 2.5 sacks this year, below average.

2009-
3. Tyson Jackson- ask chiefs fans haha
9. B.J. Raji- very good selection
11. Aaron Maybin- too early but bills consider him a disappointment
13. Brian Orakpo- good pass rusher, pro bowler
16. Larry English- Too early, average

2010-
2. Ndamukong Suh- Beast
3. Gerald McCoy- looked pretty good his rookie year
10. Tyson Alualu- named to the all rookie team, looks solid
13. Brandon Graham-started 6 games, with 3 sacks.
15. Jason Pierre-Paul- 30 tackles, 4.5 sacks, behind Tuck and Umenyiora.
16. Derrick Morgan- average, too early too tell

In My own opinion with picking a D-Lineman in the top half of the First round gives you a 34.5% chance of getting an above average player.

Now On To Secondary

1999
7. Champ Bailey- Arguably best ever.
10. Chris Mcallister- 3x pro bowl selection

2000
15. Deltha O'Neal- Bust

2001
NONE

2002
5. Quentin Jammer- Average to above average Corner
8. Roy Williams- 5x Pro Bowl Selection

2003
5. Terrence Newman- 2x Pro Bowl Selection
11. Marcus Trufant- 1 Pro Bowl Selection, Above Average
16. Troy Polamalu- Arguably Best Safety in the League

2004-
5. Sean Taylor- 2x pro bowl selection, all pro
8. Deangelo Hall- Pro Bowler
10. Dunta Robinson- Above average CB

2005-
6. Adam Jones- talented, but retarded
8. Antrel Rolle- Pro Bowler
9. Carlos Rogers- Above Average CB

2006-
7. Michael Huff-bust
8. Donte Whitner- had a good 2010, below average
15. Tye Hill- bust
16. Jason Allen- six int's in 2010, above average

2007-
6. Laron Landry- Pro Bowler
14. Darrelle Revis- Beast

2008-
11. Leodis McKelvin- average
16. Dominique Rodgers- Cromartie- Pro Bowler

2009-
14. Malcom Jenkins- average to above average CB

2010-
5. Eric Berry- young, already a stud
7. Joe Haden- 6 ints, going to be dang good
14. Earl Thomas- average right now, tons of potential

In my Opinion out of the top half of the first round over the last eleven years 69% of the secondary players taken are above average-all pro's this is my own findings and you guys can talk about it and come up with your own assessment of each player.

Discuss :strong:


i don't agree with every assessment made on the players, but thats irrelevant..

thats a great breakdown and a pretty telling observation...

you are the first to actually nudge me in the direction of Peterson...very compelling breakdown...

well done...

schaaf
01-20-2011, 01:50 PM
[QUOTE=Gcver2ver3;3095385]

thats a great breakdown and a pretty telling observation...

/QUOTE]

this was my point I know that all of these assessments are based on my own opinion but I am providing you guys with the facts of every single D-Line taken and every single Secondary player taken you guys can figure the math out on your own if you disagree with my assessments which I'm sure every person will have at least one disagreement

bowtown
01-20-2011, 01:51 PM
And another astute poster joins the new Mane.

You nubes bring much.

Aren't you the guy who just made a big lovefest post about all the newbs?

Chris
01-20-2011, 01:56 PM
It isn't the only reason I presented in my post, so if you weren't able to soak up all the other arguments, that is your fault.

Peterson is going to grade out on almost every team's board as a top three prospect in this draft, and of of the true elite or blue-chippers available.

The three DL right now with probably the highest grades are:

Bowers, Dareus and Fairley. Quinn might go ahead on some people's boards because of pure pass-rushing ability, but I ignore him all together (and his teammate) for being turds @ NC.

Each respectively deserve top ten rankings based on this past season. However, you have a bunch of players after them who had great seasons. Players in some regards, who might have better pro-translation or consistency to their game that will make their ability to have an impact better than the aforementioned.

Please tell me why DL needs to be the pick at #2 with all the names possible of going in the first round? I just listed possible first rounders. One of those players is going to be there at #36. Another will probably be there at the Miami selection too.

I highly doubt that DL will take up a 1/3 of round one this year.

Hell, Denver could have Patrick Peterson and trade up and get one of their top defensive front seven players in the draft if they wanted to.

There are a million ways they can go about this.

Not drafting DL at #2 doesn't mean we fail.

I see all your points. They make perfect sense but I still disagree. There is a reason Fairley and co. are graded as top 10 talents and some other guys will drop... people think they have the potential to be better. That's what I'm going for.

If we keep Bailey, Cox and Goodman battle it out (assuming Cox doesn't go to jail) and Squid moves in permanently to the nickel slot we're ok at CB for several more years. We're far from OK at DL and need to take chances to make it as good as it can be. That's my stance.

Gcver2ver3
01-20-2011, 01:56 PM
thats a great breakdown and a pretty telling observation...

/QUOTE]

this was my point I know that all of these assessments are based on my own opinion but I am providing you guys with the facts of every single D-Line taken and every single Secondary player taken you guys can figure the math out on your own if you disagree with my assessments which I'm sure every person will have at least one disagreement

if we did take Peterson, it would hopefully be in addition to Champ and not as a replacement to Champ...thats really important to me...

Popps
01-20-2011, 01:59 PM
If Peterson is a Suh-like prospect at corner, you take him. Period.

Peterson would never have anywhere near the impact of a guy like Suh. You simply throw away from him, assuming he's even worthy of a #2 pick.

Champ has absolutely blanketed opposing team's best WR all season long... and our defense has been atrocious. How can people not see that replacing him with a rookie isn't going to make a bit of difference?

Position DOES matter when you're drafting 2nd and paying a guy big money.
We can't screw up this pick, and taking a CB when we have gaping holes all over the defense would be screwing it up.

If we don't like the value... trade down.

But, even a guy like Dareus at #2 makes more sense than wasting the pick on a corner.

Apply pressure at the LOS and average CBs can look like world beaters.

What was the last great defense you can remember that was BUILT around a corner?

You build it around the front seven, and we've got all kinds of problems in the front seven.

Popps
01-20-2011, 02:01 PM
if we did take Peterson, it would hopefully be in addition to Champ and not as a replacement to Champ...thats really important to me...

So, you tie up your entire defensive budget on a couple of CBs... so they can run around covering guys for 8-10 seconds per play because our linemen are busy dancing or laying on the ground?

How many games were we burned by a top flight WR this year? Any?

Conversely, we got murdered by tight ends all season long.

Teams find a way to throw around a good CB.

Again, we watched it 16 times this year... so I can't imagine why anyone would doubt this.

PRBronco
01-20-2011, 02:03 PM
So, you tie up your entire defensive budget on a couple of CBs... so they can run around covering guys for 8-10 seconds per play because our linemen are busy dancing or laying on the ground?

How many games were we burned by a top flight WR this year? Any?

Conversely, we got murdered by tight ends all season long.

Teams find a way to throw around a good CB.

Again, we watched it 16 times this year... so I can't imagine why anyone would doubt this.

Seriously. I saw Sam Bradford converting 3rd downs on Champ himself ffs. A perfect throw will beat perfect coverage. They're allowing too many perfect throws :(

NFLBRONCO
01-20-2011, 02:05 PM
People who want us to take Peterson at #2 are morons. Thank you for your time.

Regardless of which side your on we need to hit jackpot with our 2nd overall pick. Is DL the biggest need of course it is. Peterson is my top choice because he's a stud we need all the studs we can get on the D side of the ball. Even if Peterson never lives up being a Champ jr one step lower of a player is still very good longterm solution for us. Where as Bowers Fairley Dareus if they aren't Peppers or Sapp or close our DL is still avg. I think in today's NFL you need darn good corners as much as pash rush. I have zero problem if Denver takes a DL with our top pick which I honestly expect them to do I just think Peterson is BPA for us.

Chris
01-20-2011, 02:11 PM
I think there's little doubt that Peterson looks like the better player... but I think the argument is impact vs talent. The football gods did not create all positions equal.

vancejohnson82
01-20-2011, 02:13 PM
So, you tie up your entire defensive budget on a couple of CBs... so they can run around covering guys for 8-10 seconds per play because our linemen are busy dancing or laying on the ground?

How many games were we burned by a top flight WR this year? Any?

Conversely, we got murdered by tight ends all season long.

Teams find a way to throw around a good CB.

Again, we watched it 16 times this year... so I can't imagine why anyone would doubt this.


we would have a guy that led the leauge in sacks in our front 7 plus Ayers who was doubled a lot this year adn wouldnt be with Doom back

we could apply pressure

PRBronco
01-20-2011, 02:13 PM
I think there's little doubt that Peterson looks like the better player... but I think the argument is impact vs talent. The football gods did not create all positions equal.

So what you're saying is: it would be a monumental act of stupidity to take a kicker in the first round? Like quite possibly the worst ****ing idea anyone had ever heard? Something that would literally set your franchise back years? A business decision so ****ing bad there's no possible way you would keep your job unless you're the owner?

bowtown
01-20-2011, 02:16 PM
So what you're saying is: it would be a monumental act of stupidity to take a kicker in the first round? Like quite possibly the worst ****ing idea anyone had ever heard? Something that would literally set your franchise back years? A business decision so ****ing bad there's no possible way you would keep your job unless you're the owner?

I think it depends on how many scabs you have on your scalp.

Chris
01-20-2011, 02:16 PM
So what you're saying is: it would be a monumental act of stupidity to take a kicker in the first round? Like quite possibly the worst ****ing idea anyone had ever heard? Something that would literally set your franchise back years? A business decision so ****ing bad there's no possible way you would keep your job unless you're the owner?

http://broncotalk.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/davisscary.jpg

jhns
01-20-2011, 02:17 PM
So what you're saying is: it would be a monumental act of stupidity to take a kicker in the first round? Like quite possibly the worst ****ing idea anyone had ever heard? Something that would literally set your franchise back years? A business decision so ****ing bad there's no possible way you would keep your job unless you're the owner?

Really? Even if it's the greatest kicker of all time, Alex Henery? I think we would be in the playoffs next year if we took him at 2.

PRBronco
01-20-2011, 02:17 PM
I think it depends on how many scabs you have on your scalp.

I dry heaved :(

Gcver2ver3
01-20-2011, 02:20 PM
So, you tie up your entire defensive budget on a couple of CBs... so they can run around covering guys for 8-10 seconds per play because our linemen are busy dancing or laying on the ground?

How many games were we burned by a top flight WR this year? Any?

Conversely, we got murdered by tight ends all season long.

Teams find a way to throw around a good CB.

Again, we watched it 16 times this year... so I can't imagine why anyone would doubt this.

please note i'm on record as wanting us to go d-line with our#2 pick and so on...but the one poster made a compelling argument about bust factors...

all i'm saying is that if we let go of champ only to draft peterson with our #2 pick, then we're replacing a all pro talent corner for a hopeful to be all pro corner...thats not what i want to see happen with the #2 pick...

so if we're picking peterson, i hope champ is there as well so at least our secondary appears bolstered while we use our remaining picks on d-line...

Popps
01-20-2011, 02:21 PM
we would have a guy that led the leauge in sacks in our front 7 plus Ayers who was doubled a lot this year adn wouldnt be with Doom back

we could apply pressure

In theory, but you've got to be able to stop the run, too. Teams gashed us right up the gut all season long. Champ couldn't do anything about that.

Then again, Champ couldn't do much about anything. He shut down his opponent, and teams just threw away from him.

To me, Dareus (if Fairley is gone) is an infinitely better pick. I don't care if Peterson is more skilled at his position. His position won't have nearly the impact someone in the front seven would, particularly a top flight DT.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-20-2011, 02:26 PM
In theory, but you've got to be able to stop the run, too. Teams gashed us right up the gut all season long. Champ couldn't do anything about that.

Then again, Champ couldn't do much about anything. He shut down his opponent, and teams just threw away from him.

To me, Dareus (if Fairley is gone) is an infinitely better pick. I don't care if Peterson is more skilled at his position. His position won't have nearly the impact someone in the front seven would, particularly a top flight DT.

True in the short-term. Not necessarily true in the long-term.

At some point, we're going to have to address the CB position. If we have a chance to lock down an all-world CB, who just happens to be a lower-bust-potential product, it saves us from needing to move up to get a less-talented product down the line.

This defense is not going to be fixed in one off season. Period. And if we draft Dareus or Fairley or Bowers, and a year from now we need CB help, we will be drafting an inferior prospect at that position.

The bust argument is a damn good argument in this situation. Damn relevant to this organization, too.

txtebow
01-20-2011, 02:28 PM
Champ will be a Raven or Eagle. Book it.

Requiem
01-20-2011, 02:32 PM
Bottom line: Anyone at #2 has to make an impact right away. Have to.

The rest of the picks should have that ability too. 4 within 67. All starters. BOOM IT UP.

DenverBroncosJM
01-20-2011, 02:32 PM
So keep Champ take Peterson.

Champ plays CB one more year then moves to Safety so you have Champ and Peterson (in his second year) and lets assume Cox stays out of jail.


Peterson - CB
Cox - CB

Champ FS

Mcbath SS?


Thats a damn fine secondary.

This year you also go after Franklin from SF and then draft D line with our 2 seconds.

Tombstone RJ
01-20-2011, 02:37 PM
In theory, but you've got to be able to stop the run, too. Teams gashed us right up the gut all season long. Champ couldn't do anything about that.

Then again, Champ couldn't do much about anything. He shut down his opponent, and teams just threw away from him.

To me, Dareus (if Fairley is gone) is an infinitely better pick. I don't care if Peterson is more skilled at his position. His position won't have nearly the impact someone in the front seven would, particularly a top flight DT.

I seriously doubt Carolina gambles on either Dareus of Fairly with the number 1 pick (or Bowers). However, if one of these guys just lights up the combine and wows all the scouts with his physical attributes then maybe Carolina takes one of these guys. With Luck withdrawing from the draft, there's a lot of "what ifs" surrounding this draft.

For arguments sake, if Peterson is drafted and plays opposite of Bailey then you have two excellent CBs, both of whom can be good in run support (we know Bailey can tackle and will stick his nose in the hole, and there's every indication that Peterson is the same kind of CB). Throw in Cox and Squid and the nickle package CBs and it's a nice luxury to have.

Next, consider this: in a few years, you transition Bailey to safety and still have Peterson and Cox as your CBs. Bailey would make an excellent safety because we know the guy likes to tackle.

So in essence, taking the top CB in the draft had a ripple effect for the entire defense. Now the Broncos can concentrate on getting the best DL help with the rest of the draft...

schaaf
01-20-2011, 02:40 PM
I seriously doubt Carolina gambles on either Dareus of Fairly with the number 1 pick (or Bowers). However, if one of these guys just lights up the combine and wows all the scouts with his physical attributes then maybe Carolina takes one of these guys. With Luck withdrawing from the draft, there's a lot of "what ifs" surrounding this draft.

For arguments sake, if Peterson is drafted and plays opposite of Bailey then you have two excellent CBs, both of whom can be good in run support (we know Bailey can tackle and will stick his nose in the hole, and there's every indication that Peterson is the same kind of CB). Throw in Cox and Squid and the nickle package CBs and it's a nice luxury to have.

Next, consider this: in a few years, you transition Bailey to safety and still have Peterson and Cox as your CBs. Bailey would make an excellent safety because we know the guy likes to tackle.

So in essence, taking the top CB in the draft had a ripple effect for the entire defense. Now the Broncos can concentrate on getting the best DL help with the rest of the draft...

This.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-20-2011, 02:42 PM
So keep Champ take Peterson.

Champ plays CB one more year then moves to Safety so you have Champ and Peterson (in his second year) and lets assume Cox stays out of jail.


Peterson - CB
Cox - CB

Champ FS

Mcbath SS?


Thats a damn fine secondary.

This year you also go after Franklin from SF and then draft D line with our 2 seconds.

Co-Sign.

baja
01-20-2011, 03:00 PM
Aren't you the guy who just made a big lovefest post about all the newbs?

If you call asking them to tell us a little something about themselves amounts to a love fest than yes.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-20-2011, 03:02 PM
If you call asking them to tell us a little something about themselves amounts to a love fest than yes.

On the OM, that's exactly what that means. There is no middle ground here. Those preaching middle ground are to be immediately executed.

baja
01-20-2011, 03:06 PM
On the OM, that's exactly what that means. There is no middle ground here. Those preaching middle ground are to be immediately executed.

Red light - green light ;D

PRBronco
01-20-2011, 03:06 PM
If you call asking them to tell us a little something about themselves amounts to a love fest than yes.

Omg that counts as a love fest? I better lay low for a while, the authorities may be looking for me.

baja
01-20-2011, 03:08 PM
Actually I consider jhns and his cousins nubes too and it is them I was referring to, not so much the very new nubes whom have not had enough posts to show their colors yet.

Hamrob
01-20-2011, 05:27 PM
Wow...that's alot of doe for a free safety.

Dedhed
01-20-2011, 05:37 PM
Wow...that's alot of doe for a free safety.
I'd give all the female deer in the country for Champ as a safety, and not think twice about it.

bowtown
01-20-2011, 05:39 PM
Wow...that's alot of doe for a free safety.

http://www.chasewater.org.uk/images/March2007/e9_Red_Deer_25_3_07_CB_PW.jpg

Dedhed
01-20-2011, 06:06 PM
I think the play of the DL is actually underrated in Denver, and that with the addition of the best pass rusher in the league, pressure on the QB will be hugely upgraded.

I think DJ, Dawkins, McBath, and Hill were the real liabilities out there. Our defense gave up a huge number of big plays which says more about the the 2nd and 3rd level guys than it does the DL.

I remember a huge number of plays running plays which looked stacked up at the point, but there was zero pursuit from the second level. Dawkins was atrocious in coverage, and not at all the beast in run support he was at the beginning of '08. Hill was like 30 yards down field on pretty much every snap, and still couldn't make a play in coverage, let alone support the run.

Having a guy like Peterson opposite champ would allow us to commit the safties to the center of the field where we were absolutely abused this year. Adding Peterson would allow us to play the style of defense that the Jets just used to utterly shut down an offense that was shredding even the best defenses in the NFL.

Yes we need to upgrade a number of positions to be able to play that style equally well, but if you compare the Jets starters to ours you can see we're far closer to their talent at DE/OLB than were are at ILB/CB/S.

Dumervil/Ayers >>> Brian Thomas/Calvin Pace

Bannan=or < Shaun Ellis

Vickerson/Thomas< or=Devito

DJ <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Bart Scott

Haggan <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< David Harris

Hill <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Brodney Poole

Dawk <<<<<<<< Eric Smith

Champ < Revis

Peterson >>>>> Cromartie

OABB
01-20-2011, 06:12 PM
I think the play of the DL is actually underrated in Denver, and that with the addition of the best pass rusher in the league, pressure on the QB will be hugely upgraded.

I think DJ, Dawkins, McBath, and Hill were the real liabilities out there. Our defense gave up a huge number of big plays which says more about the the 2nd and 3rd level guys than it does the DL.

I remember a huge number of plays running plays which looked stacked up at the point, but there was zero pursuit from the second level. Dawkins was atrocious in coverage, and not at all the beast in run support he was at the beginning of '08. Hill was like 30 yards down field on pretty much every snap, and still couldn't make a play in coverage, let alone support the run.

Having a guy like Peterson opposite champ would allow us to commit the safties to the center of the field where we were absolutely abused this year. Adding Peterson would allow us to play the style of defense that the Jets just used to utterly shut down an offense that was shredding even the best defenses in the NFL.

Yes we need to upgrade a number of positions to be able to play that style equally well, but if you compare the Jets starters to ours you can see we're far closer to their talent at DE/OLB than were are at ILB/CB/S.

Dumervil/Ayers >>> Brian Thomas/Calvin Pace

Bannan=or < Shaun Ellis

Vickerson/Thomas< or=Devito

DJ <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Bart Scott

Haggan <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< David Harris

Hill <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Brodney Poole

Dawk <<<<<<<< Eric Smith

Champ < Revis

Peterson >>>>> Cromartie

I agree pretty much with all of this.... Good post.

Hamrob
01-20-2011, 06:27 PM
I'd give all the female deer in the country for Champ as a safety, and not think twice about it.

O.K. spelling queen!

Dough
Feel better?

vancejohnson82
01-20-2011, 06:56 PM
o.k. Spelling queen!

dough
feel better?

doh!

montrose
01-21-2011, 05:18 AM
I just can't believe that after the years of having Champ and other strong players in the secondary being negated by the ****ty front-7 that the Broncos would take another DB in this spot and not a DL. While it does appear Fairley and Bowers have a higher bust ratio than Peterson, if either of those DL work out it would make such a difference to this defense. If Peterson is the pick and turns into this great CB and the defense still sucks a year from now I can totally see everybody ripping Xanders for not going DL at that pick. I suppose we have to put trust into this new "three legged stool" that they'll make the right call but if it's me, I'm taking a front-7 player with every single pick I have in this entire draft (ok, that might be a bit of overkill but you get the picture).



Also, in relation to the title of the thread...

JosinaAnderson Josina Anderson
When contacted just now, Champ Bailey's agent Jack Reale said, "there has been no contact from the #Broncos since before the season ended."

I think Champ is open to the idea of staying but the Broncos have already moved on, just want to allocate the money to younger players - IMO.

bowtown
01-21-2011, 06:16 AM
I just can't believe that after the years of having Champ and other strong players in the secondary being negated by the ****ty front-7 that the Broncos would take another DB in this spot and not a DL. While it does appear Fairley and Bowers have a higher bust ratio than Peterson, if either of those DL work out it would make such a difference to this defense. If Peterson is the pick and turns into this great CB and the defense still sucks a year from now I can totally see everybody ripping Xanders for not going DL at that pick. I suppose we have to put trust into this new "three legged stool" that they'll make the right call but if it's me, I'm taking a front-7 player with every single pick I have in this entire draft (ok, that might be a bit of overkill but you get the picture).



Also, in relation to the title of the thread...

JosinaAnderson Josina Anderson
When contacted just now, Champ Bailey's agent Jack Reale said, "there has been no contact from the #Broncos since before the season ended."

I think Champ is open to the idea of staying but the Broncos have already moved on, just want to allocate the money to younger players - IMO.

Posturing. Champ really wants to stay and his only leverage right now is to play the victim card. He will get his deal, which will be less money than he would have commanded on the open market and everyone will be happy... ONCE the new CBA is in place.

vancejohnson82
01-21-2011, 06:38 AM
I agree pretty much with all of this.... Good post.

I agree with a lot of those, but putting Brodney Poole ahead of Dawkins is silly

he has been a huge liability for them

jhns
01-21-2011, 06:39 AM
Actually I consider jhns and his cousins nubes too and it is them I was referring to, not so much the very new nubes whom have not had enough posts to show their colors yet.

What is a nube? What are you going on about? You are just a sad little McDaniels fan that still can't get over him. It is sad to see. Why don't you go root for your hometown Pats team that you got so upset that we aren't copying anymore? I'm not even sure why you are here McDaniels fan. Didn't you say you don't even like football now that he is gone?

"I just loved seeing the Broncos get ****ed over time and time again. How could you not see the success as the team has its first ever second overall pick in their NFL history?!?!??"

You are pathetic.

Dedhed
01-21-2011, 07:05 AM
I agree with a lot of those, but putting Brodney Poole ahead of Dawkins is silly

he has been a huge liability for them

First, I didn't put Brodney Poole ahead of Dawkins, I put him ahead of Renaldo.
I put Eric Smith above Dawkins, and deservedly so.

Both Hill and Dawkins were huge liabilities in coverage this year. Dawkins simply could not cover a TE this year. I love the guy, and everything that he brings to the team from an emotional/leadership standpoint, but there was a huge drop off in his play this year.

Dedhed
01-21-2011, 07:21 AM
Champ and other strong players in the secondary being negated by the ****ty front-7 that the Broncos would take another DB

And by "other strong players in the secondary" I assume you're talking about guys like Roc Alexander, Marquand Manuel, Hamza Abdullah, Kelly Herndon, Willie Middlebrooks, Jeff Shaote, Karl Paymah, Curome Cox, Marlon Mcree, Jack MF Williams, etc.

MABroncoFan
01-21-2011, 07:23 AM
First, I didn't put Brodney Poole ahead of Dawkins, I put him ahead of Renaldo.
I put Eric Smith above Dawkins, and deservedly so.

Both Hill and Dawkins were huge liabilities in coverage this year. Dawkins simply could not cover a TE this year. I love the guy, and everything that he brings to the team from an emotional/leadership standpoint, but there was a huge drop off in his play this year.

Eric Smith is filling in for regular starter Jim Leonhard also.

vancejohnson82
01-21-2011, 07:24 AM
First, I didn't put Brodney Poole ahead of Dawkins, I put him ahead of Renaldo.
I put Eric Smith above Dawkins, and deservedly so.

Both Hill and Dawkins were huge liabilities in coverage this year. Dawkins simply could not cover a TE this year. I love the guy, and everything that he brings to the team from an emotional/leadership standpoint, but there was a huge drop off in his play this year.

Brodney Poole wouldn't start over Renaldo

Dedhed
01-21-2011, 07:27 AM
Eric Smith is filling in for regular starter Jim Leonhard also.
And Doing a pretty good job. There was a drop off when Leonhard went down, but Smith has stepped things up the last month or so, and has been very good in the playoffs.

Dedhed
01-21-2011, 07:28 AM
Brodney Poole wouldn't start over Renaldo

I disagree.

vancejohnson82
01-21-2011, 07:33 AM
I disagree.

ok, we can agree to disagree but if you talk to any Jets fan they will tell you that they would want ANYONE back there other than Poole

Dedhed
01-21-2011, 07:51 AM
ok, we can agree to disagree but if you talk to any Jets fan they will tell you that they would want ANYONE back there other than Poole
I'm sure that's true, but I would take just about any other starting safety in the league over Hill.

Let's say that Poole/Hill is a wash; I think the overall point of my post still stands.

baja
01-21-2011, 07:57 AM
What is a nube? What are you going on about? You are just a sad little McDaniels fan that still can't get over him. It is sad to see. Why don't you go root for your hometown Pats team that you got so upset that we aren't copying anymore? I'm not even sure why you are here McDaniels fan. Didn't you say you don't even like football now that he is gone?

"I just loved seeing the Broncos get ****ed over time and time again. How could you not see the success as the team has its first ever second overall pick in their NFL history?!?!??"

You are pathetic.

Clearly I've moved on and am in a 'wait see' mode with the Elway riding in to save the franchise move.

You have your choice of posters that haven't been able to move on from the firing of Shanahan (you might look in the mirror on this one).

I love it when you do posts like this it means I'm doing my job of irritating you like you do to almost everyone else posting here.

vancejohnson82
01-21-2011, 07:59 AM
I'm sure that's true, but I would take just about any other starting safety in the league over Hill.

Let's say that Poole/Hill is a wash; I think the overall point of my post still stands.


Ok, I can roll with that....and we actually agree on the larger point...that Peterson is the pick (at least I think that's what we are saying)

HAT
01-21-2011, 10:19 AM
And by "other strong players in the secondary" I assume you're talking about guys like Roc Alexander, Marquand Manuel, Hamza Abdullah, Kelly Herndon, Willie Middlebrooks, Jeff Shaote, Karl Paymah, Curome Cox, Marlon Mcree, Jack MF Williams, etc.

Don't forget Lenny Walls. :giggle:

baja
01-21-2011, 10:20 AM
Don't forget Lenny Walls. :giggle:

you mean "swivel hips"?

PRBronco
01-21-2011, 10:29 AM
And by "other strong players in the secondary" I assume you're talking about guys like Roc Alexander, Marquand Manuel, Hamza Abdullah, Kelly Herndon, Willie Middlebrooks, Jeff Shaote, Karl Paymah, Curome Cox, Marlon Mcree, Jack MF Williams, etc.

Oh my god Jeff Shoate! Wow I totally forgot about that one. Man Shanny sucked at drafting. Jesus murphy.

Rascal
01-21-2011, 10:46 AM
I think the play of the DL is actually underrated in Denver, and that with the addition of the best pass rusher in the league, pressure on the QB will be hugely upgraded.

I think DJ, Dawkins, McBath, and Hill were the real liabilities out there. Our defense gave up a huge number of big plays which says more about the the 2nd and 3rd level guys than it does the DL.

I remember a huge number of plays running plays which looked stacked up at the point, but there was zero pursuit from the second level. Dawkins was atrocious in coverage, and not at all the beast in run support he was at the beginning of '08. Hill was like 30 yards down field on pretty much every snap, and still couldn't make a play in coverage, let alone support the run.

Having a guy like Peterson opposite champ would allow us to commit the safties to the center of the field where we were absolutely abused this year. Adding Peterson would allow us to play the style of defense that the Jets just used to utterly shut down an offense that was shredding even the best defenses in the NFL.

Yes we need to upgrade a number of positions to be able to play that style equally well, but if you compare the Jets starters to ours you can see we're far closer to their talent at DE/OLB than were are at ILB/CB/S.

Dumervil/Ayers >>> Brian Thomas/Calvin Pace

Bannan=or < Shaun Ellis

Vickerson/Thomas< or=Devito

DJ <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Bart Scott

Haggan <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< David Harris

Hill <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Brodney Poole

Dawk <<<<<<<< Eric Smith

Champ < Revis

Peterson >>>>> Cromartie

You are smoking some serious crack.

Under no circumstances can you assume that a college CB who hasn't played an NFL down is better than Cromartie. I don't care who the college player is.

Furthermore, Dumervil/Ayers >>> Brian Thomas/Calvin Pace is a freaking joke. Ayers hasn't shown he can do anything, and Dumervil is coming off a serious injury.

Chris
01-21-2011, 10:48 AM
Jhns and his cousins

http://www.exmortis.com/graphics/cs_anubis.jpg

schaaf
01-21-2011, 11:00 AM
Jhns and his cousins

http://www.exmortis.com/graphics/cs_anubis.jpg

damn, those are some sweet costumes

jhns
01-21-2011, 11:03 AM
Clearly I've moved on and am in a 'wait see' mode with the Elway riding in to save the franchise move.

You have your choice of posters that haven't been able to move on from the firing of Shanahan (you might look in the mirror on this one).

I love it when you do posts like this it means I'm doing my job of irritating you like you do to almost everyone else posting here.

You clearly haven't moved on. The majority of your posts are still defending McDaniels and his moves. You then claim to be objective because you write one line like "McDaniels made mistakes." after 50 straight posts defending him. It is sad that you are more of a fan of this trash than you are of this team. We only need to look at your posts from after he was fired to prove this. I hated a lot of stuff that he did and I never once melted down the way you did.

jhns
01-21-2011, 11:04 AM
Jhns and his cousins

http://www.exmortis.com/graphics/cs_anubis.jpg

Hey, at least we look cool.

What are those?

alkemical
01-21-2011, 11:13 AM
Looks to be Anubis.

schaaf
01-21-2011, 11:22 AM
You clearly haven't moved on. The majority of your posts are still defending McDaniels and his moves. You then claim to be objective because you write one line like "McDaniels made mistakes." after 50 straight posts defending him. It is sad that you are more of a fan of this trash than you are of this team. We only need to look at your posts from after he was fired to prove this. I hated a lot of stuff that he did and I never once melted down the way you did.

**** has hit the fan.

Agamemnon
01-21-2011, 11:32 AM
Wow. Thanks for really adding to the discussion. I'm sure your insight has persuaded many.

I'm not trying to persuade anyone. People who want Peterson are too dumb to be persuaded by reason. I'm just stating something that is obvious to anyone with a brain.

KO5K
01-21-2011, 11:41 AM
I'm not trying to persuade anyone. People who want Peterson are too dumb to be persuaded by reason. I'm just stating something that is obvious to anyone with a brain.

The key thing people need to realise is that this defense isn't going to be fixed in one off season.

You have to take the guy that you know will be a stud down the line, you can't be taking risks, especially with the 2nd overall pick.

And if that's Peterson then so be it, then you have to try and grab yourself a stud front 7 guy maybe next year.

Requiem
01-21-2011, 12:29 PM
I'm not trying to persuade anyone. People who want Peterson are too dumb to be persuaded by reason. I'm just stating something that is obvious to anyone with a brain.

Tell us about Stephen Paea, that awesome DT for the Oregon Ducks! :rofl:

DenverBrit
01-21-2011, 12:56 PM
I just can't believe that after the years of having Champ and other strong players in the secondary being negated by the ****ty front-7 that the Broncos would take another DB in this spot and not a DL. While it does appear Fairley and Bowers have a higher bust ratio than Peterson, if either of those DL work out it would make such a difference to this defense. If Peterson is the pick and turns into this great CB and the defense still sucks a year from now I can totally see everybody ripping Xanders for not going DL at that pick. I suppose we have to put trust into this new "three legged stool" that they'll make the right call but if it's me, I'm taking a front-7 player with every single pick I have in this entire draft (ok, that might be a bit of overkill but you get the picture).



Also, in relation to the title of the thread...

JosinaAnderson Josina Anderson
When contacted just now, Champ Bailey's agent Jack Reale said, "there has been no contact from the #Broncos since before the season ended."

I think Champ is open to the idea of staying but the Broncos have already moved on, just want to allocate the money to younger players - IMO.

Reading Xanders comments seems to confirm your opinion. It looks like the money Champ wants is going to be spread around the D.

How big a priority is retaining Champ Bailey to the organization?
Christine, Denver

BX: We know that Champ is a great, great player who has had a Hall of Fame career here. What I can say right now is that we will be meeting internally and discussing our defensive plan, and discussion how we will allocate our resources to build our defense.

Right after the Senior Bowl, we will work hard on a strategic defensive plan. We understand what it means to the fans in Bronco Nation to work on the big picture and tie this all together.

Read more: Brian Xanders: Broncos GM talks NFL Draft, defense and Champ Bailey - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/fanmail/ci_17149787#ixzz1BhnWCtAZ

cutthemdown
01-21-2011, 01:31 PM
Xanders certainly answers questions like a politician. I don't him and have no faith in him running FA or the draft.

Chris
01-21-2011, 01:39 PM
Hey, at least we look cool.

What are those?

Anubies.

Dedhed
01-21-2011, 04:56 PM
Under no circumstances can you assume that a college CB who hasn't played an NFL down is better than Cromartie.

But you can assume that a college DL will be better than Bannan, Veckerson, and Thomas?

Hogan11
01-21-2011, 05:04 PM
Anubies.

Punters

PRBronco
01-21-2011, 05:10 PM
But you can assume that a college DL will be better than Bannan, Veckerson, and Thomas?

Woah. This might be the first offseason in years where we can actually assume someone on the roster might be better than a rookie!

TheReverend
01-21-2011, 08:23 PM
Tell us about Stephen Paea, that awesome DT for the Oregon Ducks! :rofl:

Paea's pretty ****in good man.

bowtown
01-21-2011, 08:44 PM
Paea's pretty ****in good man.

I don't think he was making fun of the Paea being good part of it.

TheReverend
01-22-2011, 07:50 AM
I don't think he was making fun of the Paea being good part of it.

I'm definitely missing the purpose of the emoticon. :rofl:

(see what i did there?)

Dedhed
01-22-2011, 08:37 AM
I'm not trying to persuade anyone. People who want Fairley are too dumb to be persuaded by reason. I'm just stating something that is obvious to anyone with a brain.
Fixed it for you.

Requiem
01-22-2011, 11:38 AM
Paea's pretty ****in good man.

Of course, but he didn't play for the Ducks like Amegadouche stated.

I was just pointing out how hilarious it is for him to piss on people for their draft views, when he is ignorant to a lot of things pertaining to it. Especially player evaluation.

TheReverend
01-22-2011, 12:29 PM
Of course, but he didn't play for the Ducks like Amegadouche stated.

I was just pointing out how hilarious it is for him to piss on people for their draft views, when he is ignorant to a lot of things pertaining to it. Especially player evaluation.

Well at least he got the state right? lol