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Gutless Drunk
01-19-2011, 10:07 AM
Cutler deal was beginning of end for Denver


By Bill Williamson

"Jay Cutler became a Denver Bronco months after the team advanced to the AFC Championship Game.

When the Broncos traded up to take Cutler with the No.11 pick of the 2006 draft, they probably would have been thrilled to know the quarterback would lead his team to a home championship game appearance in his fifth NFL season.

Unfortunately for Denver, Cutler is now a member of the Chicago Bears. The Broncos traded Cutler in April 2009, and they are still looking for their first playoff berth since they drafted him.

“This is the type of move that can adversely affect a franchise for five years,” Scouts Inc.'s Gary Horton said. “There is no question. The Broncos are in much worse shape today than they were the day before they made this trade.”

This week gives Denver a painful reminder of how far the organization has fallen in the two years since Josh McDaniels replaced Mike Shanahan as head coach. Shanahan left a good offense, but Denver’s defense needed to be retooled. The job appeared to be an attractive one. The 8-8 Broncos were headlined by a 25-year-old quarterback who was coming off a Pro Bowl berth is in his second full season as a starter.

One of the primary reasons McDaniels was hired at age 32 to replace Shanahan was his ability to work with Cutler. Instead, the entire franchise was changed after McDaniels tried to acquire former Patriots quarterback Matt Cassel, who was instead traded to Kansas City. McDaniels and Cutler then feuded. Cutler was shipped out.

While Cutler is preparing to face Green Bay in the NFC Championship Game on Sunday, McDaniels is beginning a stint as the offensive coordinator in St. Louis. He is trying to rehabilitate his once seemingly boundless coaching career after a disastrous 28-game run in Denver. Among McDaniels’ biggest missteps in Denver were poor personnel decisions, beginning with the Cutler trade.


While the Bears are exactly where they hoped they’d be after the trade, Denver is trying to erase the McDaniels mistake. The team is now beginning the John Fox era with another young quarterback, Tim Tebow.

“Chicago got the big prize here,” Matt Williamson of Scouts Inc. said. “The way this trade worked out for both Chicago and Denver is proof why teams don’t trade young, franchise quarterbacks. It’s just not something you do.”

What bothers Williamson and Horton most about the trade is what Denver did with the picks it got in the Cutler deal.

“The Broncos got value,” Williamson said, "but they squandered the picks.”

Because Denver made so many draft picks, it’s difficult to break down exactly what it received for Cutler. Denver originally sent Cutler and a fifth-round pick in 2009 (which turned out to be productive Bears receiver Johnny Knox) for quarterback Kyle Orton, first-round picks in 2009 and 2010 and a third-round pick in 2009.

Denver took defensive end/linebacker Robert Ayers with the 2009 first-round pick (No. 18). Ayers has shown some ability, but not as much as Denver hoped. It packaged the Bears’ 2009 third-round pick and its own third-round pick in a deal with Pittsburgh for the final pick of the second round and a fourth-round pick. Denver took tight end Richard Quinn in the second round and guard Seth Olsen with the fourth-round pick. Neither has made an impact. Pittsburgh took standout receiver Mike Wallace with the pick from Chicago.

Denver had the No. 11 pick in 2010 from the Bears. The pick was flipped several times and Denver packaged the compensation with other picks that resulted in the selections of receiver Demaryius Thomas, Tebow and receiver Eric Decker. All could have promising futures. The players selected by other teams as part of the 2010 trade were San Francisco first-round pick Anthony Davis, Philadelphia first-round pick Brandon Graham and New England fourth-round pick Aaron Hernandez.

Tangibly, it is safe to say Denver received Orton, Ayers, Quinn, Olsen and some of the trading power to help fuel the early 2010 selections.

Orton played well for Denver, but he could be traded if Denver gives Tebow the opportunity to start in 2011, which is expected. Ayers will have a chance to play defensive end with Fox’s defense likely going to a 4-3 scheme, but he still doesn’t look like a foundation player. It has to eat at Denver fans that the Broncos passed on linebacker Clay Matthews in favor of Ayers. Matthews is a star for Green Bay.

"Denver could have gotten so much more,” Horton said. “You saw Chicago get Knox and Pittsburgh get Wallace in this deal, and you just have to think the Broncos wasted a great opportunity here.

“The Broncos have to hope Tebow is a hit or this franchise will [be] set back for years. You look at Cutler, Brandon Marshall [traded to Miami], Peyton Hillis [traded to Cleveland], Mike Wallace and look at all the missed chances. This could be a very good team. But it’s starting over all because of this [Cutler] trade.”

Chicago is one game away from the Super Bowl.

“It’s not difficult to argue who won this trade,” Williamson said. “It wasn’t the Broncos.”

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/23564/cutler-trade-was-beginning-of-end-for-denver

OBF1
01-19-2011, 10:08 AM
not this sh it again

Greatspirits
01-19-2011, 10:09 AM
So true and so sad! McD was just way in over his head.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-19-2011, 10:10 AM
Have another Burger, Bill.

OABB
01-19-2011, 10:10 AM
Cutler ruined the broncos!

Chris
01-19-2011, 10:10 AM
Who cares at this point? I certainly don't.

tsiguy96
01-19-2011, 10:13 AM
love reading this, i bet chicagos defense loves being overshadowed like this. cutler led a statistically below average defense in basically every category including scoring, while the defense was top 5 in nearly every category, not to mention special teams being best in the league. but cutler is magically the reason they are winners now?

SonOfLe-loLang
01-19-2011, 10:13 AM
This is a bit maddening to me because, while the Broncos probably ****ed up a lot of things in regards to the Cutler trade, I sincerely doubt we'd be in the AFC championship on Sunday if Jay Cutler was still our QB. This is not an apples to apples argument, but stupid idiots like the Williamson boys mentioned above like to make it simple. Plus, its not like Cutler threw for 4,500 yards and 35 TDs. He didnt **** up an offense whos team is lead by their defense. Jay's done a good job, but as said, its essentially the same team that Grossman led to the Super Bowl only 3 years before. The Broncos are riddled with problems, problems the bears dont have. Was it a good trade for the Broncos? No, of course not, we were 4-12. But it's not like we traded them Peyton Manning either.

Kid A
01-19-2011, 10:13 AM
"Denver could have gotten so much more,” Horton said. “You saw Chicago get Knox and Pittsburgh get Wallace in this deal, and you just have to think the Broncos wasted a great opportunity here.


I'll leave it to other to dissect the article as a whole, but the logic of this argument (and I've heard it a lot before) makes no sense. The Broncos did not trade Knox to Chicago - they traded a 5th round pick. The Bears, to their credit, drafted well in that spot and got a starting WR. That fact has nothing to do with the value of what Denver gave up. If Denver held onto that pick, they wouldn't have drafted Knox and likely wouldn't have drafted a starter at all.

bronco militia
01-19-2011, 10:17 AM
burger bill stating the obvious two months too late?!?!

who knew

TonyR
01-19-2011, 10:19 AM
...the logic of this argument (and I've heard it a lot before) makes no sense. The Broncos did not trade Knox to Chicago - they traded a 5th round pick. The Bears, to their credit, drafted well in that spot and got a starting WR. That fact has nothing to do with the value of what Denver gave up. If Denver held onto that pick, they wouldn't have drafted Knox and likely wouldn't have drafted a starter at all.

Yup, I made a similar point in another thread earlier today. So far Chi has done better with the assets they received. That doesn't change the value of the original exchange.

Los Broncos
01-19-2011, 10:22 AM
Tell me something I don't know.

Gcver2ver3
01-19-2011, 10:22 AM
as someone mentioned, we wouldn't be in preparing for the AFC title game if we still had Cutler now...

personally, i don't know why the Bears wouldnt have been in the NFC title game anyway had they kept Orton...has Cutler really been the difference maker for the Bears?...or has it been the same thing as always, the defense?...

well in any event, the article still rings plenty of truth....and the truth does hurt...we certainly couldnt be considered a "winner" in that whole ordeal...

Taco John
01-19-2011, 10:24 AM
love reading this, i bet chicagos defense loves being overshadowed like this. cutler led a statistically below average defense in basically every category including scoring, while the defense was top 5 in nearly every category, not to mention special teams being best in the league. but cutler is magically the reason they are winners now?


Kyle Orton didn't win these kinds of games for them:
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010122600/2010/REG16/jets@bears
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010112804/2010/REG12/eagles@bears


You're crazy if you think that the Bears team doesn't appreciate the contributions that Jay has made to their run up to the NFC Championship game.

Drek
01-19-2011, 10:25 AM
Man, for a second there I almost thought Williamson was going to have an intelligent article, opening up with the '06 trade up.

If instead of going up to grab Cutler we'd done the smart thing and grabbed Haloti Ngata and Mike Shanahan walks away with a draft class that yields Ngata and Doom to fix a DL in desperate need.

We likely win the wild card, possibly even repeat as AFC West champs with key wins over the Chargers. Coyer stays on and we continue our most recent stretch of defensive continuity. Better yet, we don't sacrifice the entire '07 draft where we had an extra 3rd to chase Jim Bates' system fits.

Al Wilson might not have gotten the same career ending injury if Ngata was on the field but even if he had we could have then used our 2007 first on a MLB to replace him. The three MLBs taken after our pick? Jon Beason, Paul Posluszny, and David Harris. Hard to miss on that group. We retain an extra 3rd and then don't trade our entire second day and an '08 3rd to get Marcus Thomas, which leads to better organizational depth throughout the roster.

All of that cascades through and the Broncos are a far better team over the last several years who just so happen to be in the QB market with their late '10 pick where Tim Tebow happens to be available.

20/20 hindsight is a damn fun game.

Bigdawg26
01-19-2011, 10:27 AM
Ok WE KNOW ALREADY! Man how long is burger bill gonna beat a dead horse!

Gcver2ver3
01-19-2011, 10:27 AM
Kyle Orton didn't win these kinds of games for them:
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010122600/2010/REG16/jets@bears
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010112804/2010/REG12/eagles@bears


You're crazy if you think that the Bears team doesn't appreciate the contributions that Jay has made to their run up to the NFC Championship game.

well of course they do, he's their quarterback...but lets not pretend that Cutler is the reason theyre going to the NFC title game...in fact, the reason could actually be that they had to scale Cutler back, or in other words have him throw less because he'd get them in so much trouble with ints...

Orton had his moments just like Cutler did...remember the game against ATL when Orton led them back in the last moments of the game?...i can't remember if the Bears held on to win, but Orton certainly was the hero for the Bears that day...

Gutless Drunk
01-19-2011, 10:27 AM
love reading this, i bet chicagos defense loves being overshadowed like this. cutler led a statistically below average defense in basically every category including scoring, while the defense was top 5 in nearly every category, not to mention special teams being best in the league. but cutler is magically the reason they are winners now?

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nf...ael&id=6028545

" Julius Peppers could see it to a great degree, which is why he signed with the Bears as a free agent when just about every team in the NFL would have welcomed him. "It wasn't a roll of the dice," Peppers said, when I asked him to look back. "It was a calculated approach I took. I'm looking at the roster and seeing Jay Cutler, a young playmaker coming into his prime as a quarterback. On the defensive side, I'm thinking, 'OK, if I'm out there with [Brian] Urlacher and [Lance] Briggs we should be in just about every game, just from a defensive standpoint."

Taco John
01-19-2011, 10:29 AM
This is a bit maddening to me because, while the Broncos probably ****ed up a lot of things in regards to the Cutler trade, I sincerely doubt we'd be in the AFC championship on Sunday if Jay Cutler was still our QB.

I don't doubt it for a second. We had one of the best young offenses in the game that just needed to mature, and we had a stockpile of draft picks and more cap space than we had ever had in the salary cap era - nearly all of which to spend on defense.

Oh, we also had Mike Nolan.

Josh was an idiot.

RunSilentRunDeep
01-19-2011, 10:29 AM
... and there's rumor Denver could have had Ed Reed.

OABB
01-19-2011, 10:30 AM
... and there's rumor Denver could have had Ed Reed.

Beautiful.

Taco John
01-19-2011, 10:32 AM
well of course they do, he's their quarterback...but lets not pretend that Cutler is the reason theyre going to the NFC title game...in fact, the reason could actually be that they had to scale Cutler back, or in other words have him throw less because he'd get them in so much trouble with ints...

Orton had his moments just like Cutler did...remember the game against ATL when Orton led them back in the last moments of the game?...i can't remember if the Bears held on to win, but Orton certainly was the hero for the Bears that day...


Whatever. You can minimize Cutler's contributions to that team all you want, but you come off looking like a fool. Orton didn't win games like I pointed out. Orton doesn't take games over on the strength of his arm like Cutler can and does.

Did they scale him back? Sure: he's a maturing quarterback. That's what young, dumb quarterbacks eventually do: they mature.

Downplay Cutler all you want, but he's playing in an NFC Championship game and he was a key contributor, not just in the regular season, but last week during an actual PLAYOFF GAME.

ColoradoDarin
01-19-2011, 10:35 AM
... and there's rumor Denver could have had Ed Reed.

/end thread

SonOfLe-loLang
01-19-2011, 10:39 AM
Whatever. You can minimize Cutler's contributions to that team all you want, but you come off looking like a fool. Orton didn't win games like I pointed out. Orton doesn't take games over on the strength of his arm like Cutler can and does.

Did they scale him back? Sure: he's a maturing quarterback. That's what young, dumb quarterbacks eventually do: they mature.

Downplay Cutler all you want, but he's playing in an NFC Championship game and he was a key contributor, not just in the regular season, but last week during an actual PLAYOFF GAME.

No question Jay Cutler is doing what he needs to do to win. He's doing an ice job caretaking that offense. BUT, having said that, i dont think he's turning into peyton manning out there. Not to mention, and KC Joyner wrote a nice article about this, the Bears were the beneficiary of some good luck this year (and every team needs this to win). That said, they are playing very strong football. But lets be clear, the defense is the main reason the Bears are playing as well as they are. Again, if Cutler were on the broncos, ill safely assume the broncos would still be fairly ****

Rohirrim
01-19-2011, 10:40 AM
I'll bet Bill pumped this one out while waiting in line at Sonic.

Kaylore
01-19-2011, 10:41 AM
He's right. Trading up for Cutler started our five years of mediocrity and suckage.

Gcver2ver3
01-19-2011, 10:41 AM
Whatever. You can minimize Cutler's contributions to that team all you want, but you come off looking like a fool. Orton didn't win games like I pointed out. Orton doesn't take games over on the strength of his arm like Cutler can and does.

Did they scale him back? Sure: he's a maturing quarterback. That's what young, dumb quarterbacks eventually do: they mature.

Downplay Cutler all you want, but he's playing in an NFC Championship game and he was a key contributor, not just in the regular season, but last week during an actual PLAYOFF GAME.

i'm not downplaying anything...you're downplaying the defense...and you're over hyping Cutler due to i guess being upset he was traded in the 1st place...i get it, we were better before the Cutler trade as a team...but Cutler has not delivered what he should have compared to what they paid to get him...

Cutler: 60% comp, 3200 yds, 86 pass rating....

Orton: 59% comp, 3600 yds, 87 pass rating...

that was this season's numbers for them...there is nothing to show Cutler did much of anything compared to Orton...when the Bears were successful is when Cutler was asked to MANAGE the game and not try and win it...much like when Orton was there...

i'm not here to tell you Orton > Cutler...what i'm telling you is that we got excellent value for Cutler and squandered it...and what i'm also telling you is that Cutler, while talented, did not have a great year, but he does a have a darn good team and he's in a great situation...i wish him the best, but i'm balanced about this, i have no biased towards him, or Orton...not anymore...

Gutless Drunk
01-19-2011, 10:42 AM
If you had to win a game tomorrow who would you take?

Orton
Tebow
Cutler

Rohirrim
01-19-2011, 10:43 AM
If you had to win a game tomorrow who would you take?

Orton
Tebow
Cutler

Which one gets the best defense?

Taco John
01-19-2011, 10:43 AM
i'm not downplaying anything...you're downplaying the defense...and you're over hyping Cutler due to i guess being upset he was traded in the 1st place...

Not at all. They are a TEAM. That's the point.

When Cutler was here, he was practically a one man show. He needed a team around him to be successful, not to mention more experience and maturity. He's exactly where I thought he would be right now: in a Championship game.

strafen
01-19-2011, 10:45 AM
This thread will give the Mcdaniels fanboys ulcers!

Taco John
01-19-2011, 10:45 AM
Cutler: 60% comp, 3200 yds, 86 pass rating....

Orton: 59% comp, 3600 yds, 87 pass rating...




Yap yap yap stats stats stats.

Stats mean nothing when you're playing the Eagles and need to out score them to beat them. Where was the Bears defense for this game? (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010112804/2010/REG12/eagles@bears)

I'll tell you where they were: lining up to high five Cutler for winning the game.

I like Orton, but I couldn't find you one single game in his entire career where he pulled off a similar feat against a similarly talented team.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-19-2011, 10:48 AM
If you had to win a game tomorrow who would you take?

Orton
Tebow
Cutler

Id take cutler, but the trade was never CUTLER for ORTON. And I'd take Cutler, but shrug at the prospect of all three. Its not a laughable question like it would be if you threw Brady or Big Ben in there

Gcver2ver3
01-19-2011, 10:50 AM
Not at all. They are a TEAM. That's the point.

When Cutler was here, he was practically a one man show. He needed a team around him to be successful, not to mention more experience and maturity. He's exactly where I thought he would be right now: in a Championship game.

i think the remainder of my post said it all...

we were a better team before the Cutler trade then we are now...THATs the real issue...had we properly utilized the value we received for Cutler, it would be a different story, i'm convinced of that...but the numbers and our eyeballs make it clear...Culter isn't the reason the Bears are in the title game...they couldve had Orton and the same thing could've occurred...

bendog
01-19-2011, 10:53 AM
i think the remainder of my post said it all...

we were a better team before the Cutler trade then we are now...THATs the real issue...had we properly utilized the value we received for Cutler, it would be a different story, i'm convinced of that...but the numbers and our eyeballs make it clear...Culter isn't the reason the Bears are in the title game...they couldve had Orton and the same thing could've occurred...

No way orton's arm gets them there wiht Martz's offense. The bears defense isn't as good as it was with a younger Ulracher and healthy Tommy Smith in the Grossman year, either. That's not to diss orton because he might be a winner in a true WC.

Taco John
01-19-2011, 10:53 AM
i think the remainder of my post said it all...

we were a better team before the Cutler trade then we are now...THATs the real issue...had we properly utilized the value we received for Cutler, it would be a different story, i'm convinced of that...but the numbers and our eyeballs make it clear...Culter isn't the reason the Bears are in the title game...they couldve had Orton and the same thing could've occurred...

You must have missed last week's game. He's the REASON they are in the title game. He nearly single handedly won the game for the Bears last week.

Orton winning that game? Hahahahahahahaha! Are you effing serious?

Come on man! Come on!

Did you even watch that game?

lostknight
01-19-2011, 10:53 AM
While the jury is still out, to some degree on Jay Cutler, the jury is no longer out on Josh McDaniels and the Broncos moves during the same period. Cutle is now where Quarterbacks make or break teams - the playoffs. He's in control of his own destiny.

On the other hand, the Broncos finished diametrically opposite of Chicago's second seed status. They are now second worse in the NFL.

Was drafting Cutler the wrong move? The Jake implosion the following year would have forced us to get a quarterback the year following. Jay certainly looks better then the other QB's in that draft at this point - VY is homeless, Matty is washed out. It's nice to pretend that we would have gotten the perfect player if we had not drafted Cutler, but given this organizations history of a inability to develop D-line potential, it's hard to make the argument that it would have worked.

All that being said, I think I would take Tebow over Cutler. Cutler has - and I posted before the trade - significant issues with how he leads a team. Ironically very similar to Kyle Orton in that regard.

enjolras
01-19-2011, 10:54 AM
i think the remainder of my post said it all...

we were a better team before the Cutler trade then we are now...THATs the real issue...had we properly utilized the value we received for Cutler, it would be a different story, i'm convinced of that...but the numbers and our eyeballs make it clear...Culter isn't the reason the Bears are in the title game...they couldve had Orton and the same thing could've occurred...

Cutler hasn't faced a bit of adversity yet. The Bears remind me a lot of the 2005 Broncos. Everything has gone their way really.

I don't think anyone doubts that Cutler has the ability to get his team into this position. What I doubt is his ability to truly get his team to the next level when faced with adversity. I *know* that when his team has the ball on the 2 yard line with 5:32 to play, Cutler will fold like a lawn chair. That's who he is.

I'm not sure he'll experience it this week against Green Bay. They're a good defensive team, but hardly a great one. He will DEFINITELY see it if they make it to the superbowl against either the Steelers or Jets. Then we'll see what Jay Cutler is made out of. I assure you, it's not much.

Gcver2ver3
01-19-2011, 10:56 AM
Yap yap yap stats stats stats.

Stats mean nothing when you're playing the Eagles and need to out score them to beat them. Where was the Bears defense for this game? (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010112804/2010/REG12/eagles@bears)

I'll tell you where they were: lining up to high five Cutler for winning the game.

I like Orton, but I couldn't find you one single game in his entire career where he pulled off a similar feat against a similarly talented team.

so you want to point out Cutler's best ever game on why he's the difference maker Chicago needed to be good this year?...if you want to pick his best game where he won a game, then i'll remind you a few weeks earlier against an inferior Redskin team where he threw 4 picks and lost the game for his team...so he won a game and lost a game...we're back at ground zero...

Cutler has talent, and sometimes he looks great but the Bears cannot risk him being aggressive because he'll cost them wins...

if you have to scale your QB back, thats not the definition of a franchise QB in my view...with Orton theyd be just as good IMO...

bendog
01-19-2011, 10:58 AM
Just to throw this out, but maybe it wasn't lambchop or McD. Cutler wasn't going to win anything with the 08 defense. He threw for 4500 yds and didn't win. McD was incapable of drafting a defense regardless of picks.

So rather than trading cutler being the beginning of the end, maybe it was the end of the beginning. We've gotten marginal talent from 4 first rd picks ... unless DThomas and Ayers can be healthy. But Tebow may be a guy who can pass for 3000 on a team that runs 60% of the time and plays tough defense, and if we can't get two downlineman and a OT with the first four picks, we need better draft guys.

Taco John
01-19-2011, 10:58 AM
Did all these people praising the Bears defense just completely miss the fact that Matt Hasselback and the Seahawks score 3 TDs and a fieldgoal in the second half of a playoff game? Where were you guys? Chistmas is over! It's the playoffs! You shouldn't be out shopping! It was the Jay Cutler show out there last week. Chicago's defense was a joke, but Jay took the game in hand.

I get it, you hate Jay Cutler. But you just make yourselves to look like idiots when you talk about how great the Bears defense is the week after they rode Jay Cutler's back to the NFC Championship game.

Gcver2ver3
01-19-2011, 10:58 AM
You must have missed last week's game. He's the REASON they are in the title game. He nearly single handedly won the game for the Bears last week.

Orton winning that game? Hahahahahahahaha! Are you effing serious?

Come on man! Come on!

Did you even watch that game?

Cutler had a great game against Seattle...but let's not get it twisted...Seattle could do NOTHING against that Bear defense until they went prevent in the 2nd half...if you watched the game, you'd know that...

but yeah, congrats to Cutler for shredding a 7-9 football team at home...

bendog
01-19-2011, 10:59 AM
so you want to point out Cutler's best ever game on why he's the difference maker Chicago needed to be good this year?...if you want to pick his best game where he won a game, then i'll remind you a few weeks earlier against an inferior Redskin team where he threw 4 picks and lost the game for his team...so he won a game and lost a game...we're back at ground zero...

Cutler has talent, and sometimes he looks great but the Bears cannot risk him being aggressive because he'll cost them wins...

if you have to scale your QB back, thats not the definition of a franchise QB in my view...with Orton theyd be just as good IMO...

You havn't been watching the bears. Not to diss you, but that was NOT cutler's best game this year.

Gutless Drunk
01-19-2011, 10:59 AM
so you want to point out Cutler's best ever game on why he's the difference maker Chicago needed to be good this year?...if you want to pick his best game where he won a game, then i'll remind you a few weeks earlier against an inferior Redskin team where he threw 4 picks and lost the game for his team...so he won a game and lost a game...we're back at ground zero...

Cutler has talent, and sometimes he looks great but the Bears cannot risk him being aggressive because he'll cost them wins...

if you have to scale your QB back, thats not the definition of a franchise QB in my view...with Orton theyd be just as good IMO...

With their offensive line Orton would have been on IR at the bye. Cutler was running for his life...and Orton can't run.

ColoradoDarin
01-19-2011, 10:59 AM
You must have missed last week's game. He's the REASON they are in the title game. He nearly single handedly won the game for the Bears last week.

Orton winning that game? Hahahahahahahaha! Are you effing serious?

Come on man! Come on!

Did you even watch that game?

Did you even watch the game? Man, trolling your own board is epic!

Cutler hit that Seattle defender right in the gut at the goalline and he dropped it. The coaches limited Cutler throwing in the red zone after that (7 runs and 1 pass IIRC)

There were at least 2 other opportunities for interceptions that the Seahawks blew and Cutler's fumble was lucky to have been recovered by the Bears. A couple of other bounces and the Bears have 4+ turnovers in that game.

I'm pretty sure that 2010 Orton could have hit the same bomb to Olsen (chuck it deep to Olsen doesn't sound as cool though), but man that pass was a thing of beauty, perfectly thrown by Cutler and took advantage of poor pass defense there.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-19-2011, 11:00 AM
You must have missed last week's game. He's the REASON they are in the title game. He nearly single handedly won the game for the Bears last week.

Orton winning that game? Hahahahahahahaha! Are you effing serious?

Come on man! Come on!

Did you even watch that game?

Ummm wasnt it 28-3 at one point? Yeah, the D didnt show up. Total shootout.

Rohirrim
01-19-2011, 11:01 AM
Did all these people praising the Bears defense just completely miss the fact that Matt Hasselback and the Seahawks score 3 TDs and a fieldgoal in the second half of a playoff game? Where were you guys? Chistmas is over! It's the playoffs! You shouldn't be out shopping! It was the Jay Cutler show out there last week. Chicago's defense was a joke, but Jay took the game in hand.

I get it, you hate Jay Cutler. But you just make yourselves to look like idiots when you talk about how great the Bears defense is the week after they rode Jay Cutler's back to the NFC Championship game.

You're right. He was impressive. I was impressed, anyway. I'll be curious to see if he carries that consistently through the playoffs. The question about Cutler is always, when the going gets tough, what will he do?

TonyR
01-19-2011, 11:02 AM
Did all these people praising the Bears defense just completely miss the fact that Matt Hasselback and the Seahawks score 3 TDs and a fieldgoal in the second half of a playoff game? Where were you guys? Chistmas is over! It's the playoffs! You shouldn't be out shopping! It was the Jay Cutler show out there last week. Chicago's defense was a joke, but Jay took the game in hand.

LOL Funny how you pretend to know anything about football. The game was over and Chicago took their feet off the gas. The defense played great most of the game and went conservative in the second half. You really don't understand this?

Gcver2ver3
01-19-2011, 11:03 AM
You havn't been watching the bears. Not to diss you, but that was NOT cutler's best game this year.

yes i have and yes it was...

TonyR
01-19-2011, 11:04 AM
You must have missed last week's game. He's the REASON they are in the title game. He nearly single handedly won the game for the Bears last week.

So earlier you said it's about TEAM and how that's the point, but now Cutler did it all on his own? Which is it? You're letting your emotions get the better of you here and your arguments are incoherent.

Taco John
01-19-2011, 11:04 AM
so you want to point out Cutler's best ever game on why he's the difference maker Chicago needed to be good this year?...if you want to pick his best game where he won a game, then i'll remind you a few weeks earlier against an inferior Redskin team where he threw 4 picks and lost the game for his team...so he won a game and lost a game...we're back at ground zero...

His best game ever came last week in the playoffs when he loaded the team up on his back and took them to a win. Jay Cutler has had 7 four touchdown performances in his 5 year career. He's also had some real stinkers. I never said Cutler doesn't have bad games, but he's had more good ones than he's had bad ones this season and the result is that he and his TEAM are in the NFC Championship Game.



Cutler has talent, and sometimes he looks great but the Bears cannot risk him being aggressive because he'll cost them wins...

Except for last week during the playoffs? What are you even talking about? So what if they need to leash him now and again? That's what maturity is all about.


if you have to scale your QB back, thats not the definition of a franchise QB in my view...with Orton theyd be just as good IMO...

That's moronic. Every franchise quarterback scales back. Peyton Manning isn't lobbing it downfield every play. Neither is Brady. Neither is anyone who is successful. Brett Favre is the only gunslinger that I've ever seen who has never had to scale his game back much to reach any level of success, and even then, his level of success remains a huge doubt.

Jay Cutler is a top 10 QB in this game, and maybe even a top 5. To say that this Bears team would be just as good with Orton is a joke. Orton wasn't going to score 35 last week including two touchdown runs to win the game. Don't make me laugh. It's a ridiculous notion. Give it up.

CEH
01-19-2011, 11:05 AM
With their offensive line Orton would have been on IR at the bye. Cutler was running for his life...and Orton can't run.

This as to why you can't say Orton would win with this CHI team .

I doubt he makes it out of the NYG game. He would have been killed maybe literally

Cutler like him or hate him is out there every Sunday.

bendog
01-19-2011, 11:06 AM
no you haven't or you're blind. and you're really stupid blind to think the bears would be there with orton. that's just moronic stupid.

Taco John
01-19-2011, 11:07 AM
So earlier you said it's about TEAM and how that's the point, but now Cutler did it all on his own? Which is it? You're letting your emotions get the better of you here and your arguments are incoherent.


Just depends. It's a week to week game. Some weeks the defense comes through. Some weeks, the offense needs to. Last week, they all loaded up on Cutler's back.

My arguments are fully coherent. You just want them to be one size fits all, when the real answer is that this game is played from week to week, and anybody who has actually watched Chicago games this year knows that thier defense has leaned hard on Cutler and the offense to pull them out of some sticky situations. And vice versa. Cutler has had some bad games where he's needed to lean heavily on the defense.

Gcver2ver3
01-19-2011, 11:07 AM
With their offensive line Orton would have been on IR at the bye. Cutler was running for his life...and Orton can't run.

well its not like his "escapability" was doing much for him, he was sacked 52 times...

with that said, our o-line wasn't exactly stellar last season either with the injuries and chemistry issues...Orton was sacked 34 times in 13 games himself...

oubronco
01-19-2011, 11:08 AM
Cutler ruined the broncos!

McDumbass ruined the Broncos starting with the trade of Cutler and it snowballed from there

jhns
01-19-2011, 11:10 AM
Girls, it is ok to stop defending McDaniels. He was the worst thing to ever happen to this franchise. Get over him. There is no way you can even begin to claim that the Cutler trade was good for this team. It completely f'd the o-line. It made us much worse at QB. It created malcontents that then had to go. The trade made it so we had to focus resources that we couldn't afford on the offense. It made it much harder to build the defense, which only got worse because of it....

There was no good that came from that trade.

ColoradoDarin
01-19-2011, 11:11 AM
Orton winning that game? Hahahahahahahaha! Are you effing serious?

Let's see:

Cutler at home against Seattle 2010: 15/28 53.6% 274 yards 2 TD 0 Int 111.3 Rating

Orton at home against Seattle 2010: 25/35 71.4% 307 yards 2 TD 0 Int 117.2 Rating

Yeah, I think Kyle Orton could have done pretty much the same as Jay Cutler did last week since he did it already this year. Honestly, I was surprised by Cutler's rating in that game with only 53% completions.

Taco's brilliance for all to see yet again! Tell me, do you even know that a football is not round?

TonyR
01-19-2011, 11:11 AM
This post from another thread belongs here as well.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=3093814#post3093814

Taco John
01-19-2011, 11:12 AM
You're right. He was impressive. I was impressed, anyway. I'll be curious to see if he carries that consistently through the playoffs. The question about Cutler is always, when the going gets tough, what will he do?

I absolutely agree with that. This was my criticism of Jake. Cutler has made it further than Jake Plummer at this point in my eyes on the strength of last week's game. Jake never was able to carry a team like Cutler did last week in the playoffs. But Cutler is going to face a lot more adversity this week than the Seahawks put up. Frankly, I think Cutler has more growing up to do, and I think the Bears are going to lose this week. But I think in the long run, he'll bounce back and be a better, more focused quarterback for it.

vancejohnson82
01-19-2011, 11:12 AM
i could make an argument that the drafting of Cutler was the beginning of the end for this team too

we were one game away from the Super Bowl one year and one win from making the playoffs the year after, but we started a QB controversey

TonyR
01-19-2011, 11:12 AM
Let's see:

Cutler at home against Seattle 2010: 15/28 53.6% 274 yards 2 TD 0 Int 111.3 Rating

Orton at home against Seattle 2010: 25/35 71.4% 307 yards 2 TD 0 Int 117.2 Rating

Ouch, that's gonna hurt...

2KBack
01-19-2011, 11:13 AM
Did all these people praising the Bears defense just completely miss the fact that Matt Hasselback and the Seahawks score 3 TDs and a fieldgoal in the second half of a playoff game? Where were you guys? Chistmas is over! It's the playoffs! You shouldn't be out shopping! It was the Jay Cutler show out there last week. Chicago's defense was a joke, but Jay took the game in hand.

I get it, you hate Jay Cutler. But you just make yourselves to look like idiots when you talk about how great the Bears defense is the week after they rode Jay Cutler's back to the NFC Championship game.

From my count it was 28-0 at the half and Chicago had forced four 3 and outs on 7 possessions.

Gcver2ver3
01-19-2011, 11:13 AM
His best game ever came last week in the playoffs when he loaded the team up on his back and took them to a win. Jay Cutler has had 7 four touchdown performances in his 5 year career. He's also had some real stinkers. I never said Cutler doesn't have bad games, but he's had more good ones than he's had bad ones this season and the result is that he and his TEAM are in the NFC Championship Game.





Except for last week during the playoffs? What are you even talking about? So what if they need to leash him now and again? That's what maturity is all about.




That's moronic. Every franchise quarterback scales back. Peyton Manning isn't lobbing it downfield every play. Neither is Brady. Neither is anyone who is successful. Brett Favre is the only gunslinger that I've ever seen who has never had to scale his game back much to reach any level of success, and even then, his level of success remains a huge doubt.

Jay Cutler is a top 10 QB in this game, and maybe even a top 5. To say that this Bears team would be just as good with Orton is a joke. Orton wasn't going to score 35 last week including two touchdown runs to win the game. Don't make me laugh. It's a ridiculous notion. Give it up.


now my points are moronic?...

you may disagree, but my points aren't moronic, thats just ridiculous...

i can see you're not willing to reason with me or even budge on any points made...your bias for Cutler is having you overlook any countering logic...

i can see i'm spinning my wheels here...

colonelbeef
01-19-2011, 11:13 AM
Have another Burger, Bill.

Be dumber, Moose

bendog
01-19-2011, 11:14 AM
Since I figure Pitt will win, I just want the defense that is more likely to break rapesburgers other foot/nose.

LRtagger
01-19-2011, 11:14 AM
Ummm wasnt it 28-3 at one point? Yeah, the D didnt show up. Total shootout.

Not only that, but that idiotic Forte pass called by Martz is what let Seattle back into the game. Without that ridiculous call, I doubt Seattle puts up more than 10.

They scored 21 of their points in the 4th quarter. Their first 8 drives all ended in punts and 4 of those were 3 and outs. None were more than 6 plays. Their longest drive before the 5 min remaining mark in the 4th quarter was 36 yards.

Obviously the Bears D didn't show up.

colonelbeef
01-19-2011, 11:15 AM
love reading this, i bet chicagos defense loves being overshadowed like this. cutler led a statistically below average defense in basically every category including scoring, while the defense was top 5 in nearly every category, not to mention special teams being best in the league. but cutler is magically the reason they are winners now?

Do you ever get the point, or is it always just about trying to back up your personal agenda?

I have yet to see you make a sentient football observation, way to keep the streak alive

bendog
01-19-2011, 11:16 AM
i could make an argument that the drafting of Cutler was the beginning of the end for this team too

we were one game away from the Super Bowl one year and one win from making the playoffs the year after, but we started a QB controversey

nah, we weren't going anywhere with the broncos and three small linebackers. Shanny was never gonna get the defense done. Pitt kept 8 in in max protection, and ate Den's lunch.

Taco John
01-19-2011, 11:16 AM
Let's see:

Cutler at home against Seattle 2010: 15/28 53.6% 274 yards 2 TD 0 Int 111.3 Rating

Orton at home against Seattle 2010: 25/35 71.4% 307 yards 2 TD 0 Int 117.2 Rating

Yeah, I think Kyle Orton could have done pretty much the same as Jay Cutler did last week since he did it already this year. Honestly, I was surprised by Cutler's rating in that game with only 53% completions.

Taco's brilliance for all to see yet again! Tell me, do you even know that a football is not round?

Living in the Pacific NW, I watch a lot of Seahawks football with my friends up here. Comparing the week two Seattle Seahawks in their second game ever with a new coach, new system, etc. and the Playoff version of the Seahawks isn't valid. They're practically two entirely different teams.

Yeah, I know that a football is round. I also know that it takes more than one game to provide a statistically relevant point. It's amusing to me that you think you've so nailed me on the point that you'd call me out for being exposed and ask me if I know that the ball is round. Kind of makes you look silly.

Rohirrim
01-19-2011, 11:16 AM
Cutler had one of the best games I've ever seen him have last week. That's why the controversy still has life. But it's not the great games he has that cause the problems. It's the games where he gets mopey when something goes wrong and then starts his tantrum throws that lead to fat INTs, where he thinks he has a magical arm and anything he burns in there is perfect. I wouldn't climb too high on the Cutler bandwagon right now. Let it play out. This week, mopey Jay could come back and sink the Bears just as quickly as good Jay has lifted them up. It's not his skill set that's the issue. It's his head.

epicSocialism4tw
01-19-2011, 11:16 AM
It wasnt just the Cutler deal that has weakened this franchise. It has been the consistent mismanagement of the roster. Especially the consistent waste of draft resources. Trading a #1 pick for Alphonso Smith, trading up, trading back, not having the cajones to draft defensive line...all of these things have contributed to the lack of talent on the defense.

There was enough talent on offense to work with after Shanahan left. But instead of building the other side of the ball, they chose to rearrange the deck chairs on the offensive side. Stupid.

jhns
01-19-2011, 11:17 AM
Let's see:

Cutler at home against Seattle 2010: 15/28 53.6% 274 yards 2 TD 0 Int 111.3 Rating

Orton at home against Seattle 2010: 25/35 71.4% 307 yards 2 TD 0 Int 117.2 Rating

Yeah, I think Kyle Orton could have done pretty much the same as Jay Cutler did last week since he did it already this year. Honestly, I was surprised by Cutler's rating in that game with only 53% completions.

Taco's brilliance for all to see yet again! Tell me, do you even know that a football is not round?

Ummm, Cutler had the game won in the first couple of minutes. Cutler also rushed for multiple TDs. This doesn't change what you think of your comparison because you don't understand this sport.

None of this is even touching on the talent difference around the QBs on offense or the amount of time in their systems....

Taco John
01-19-2011, 11:17 AM
Ouch, that's gonna hurt...

Not at all. It's irrelevant.

Drek
01-19-2011, 11:17 AM
Since I figure Pitt will win, I just want the defense that is more likely to break rapesburgers other foot/nose.

Thats basically where I fall on the final four games. Whomever can end the rapist's career gets my vote for SB champs.

If the Steelers actually make it to the SB though I don't think I'll even watch. Have very little stomach for 6+ hours of media types lauding praise on a serial rapist.

Shoemaker
01-19-2011, 11:19 AM
Ouch, that's gonna hurt...

Hurt? From what I can tell reading this thread, Taco won't be able to read that post because its full of "blah blah blah stats stats stats."

Because statistics don't mean anything, clearly. Its not like comparing and contrasting the numbers of the two quarterbacks performances against the same team MATTERS.

orangemonkey
01-19-2011, 11:19 AM
Cutler hasn't faced a bit of adversity yet. The Bears remind me a lot of the 2005 Broncos. Everything has gone their way really.

I don't think anyone doubts that Cutler has the ability to get his team into this position. What I doubt is his ability to truly get his team to the next level when faced with adversity. I *know* that when his team has the ball on the 2 yard line with 5:32 to play, Cutler will fold like a lawn chair. That's who he is.

I'm not sure he'll experience it this week against Green Bay. They're a good defensive team, but hardly a great one. He will DEFINITELY see it if they make it to the superbowl against either the Steelers or Jets. Then we'll see what Jay Cutler is made out of. I assure you, it's not much.

LOL. He endured 9 1st half sacks playing without an o-line (being facetious) against the Giants and was concussed. He sat out 1.5 games and was ailing (well documented) from the concussion the two games after he returned. Then went ahead and put up 8 TD's against the Jets and Philly when the Bears defense coincidentally decided to have bad games (giving up 60 combined points). And the Jets game was the biggest and the most important of the regular season for Cut. You didn't watch the Bears and Cutler this year if you think he hasn't faced adversity.

No doubt the nickel and dime sets will cause fits for Cutler this Sunday especially if the Bears get down by multiple scores early. But the Bears D has proved that they can shut down Rodgers too. Cutler and Rodgers are two very good quarterbacks. This is exactly the type of gunslinging playoff duel any non-hater NFL fan wants to see. I mean this isn't Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson taking on Aaron Roders. ;-)

Taco John
01-19-2011, 11:20 AM
now my points are moronic?...

you may disagree, but my points aren't moronic, thats just ridiculous...

i can see you're not willing to reason with me or even budge on any points made...your bias for Cutler is having you overlook any countering logic...

i can see i'm spinning my wheels here...

You are spinning your wheels if you think you can just trade Cutler for Orton and get the same results. And sorry, but that's moronic. Orton is a fine caretaker of the ball, but he's not a game closer. If he was, we'd have a lot more than 4 wins this year.

TonyR
01-19-2011, 11:20 AM
It's the games where he gets mopey when something goes wrong and then starts his tantrum throws that lead to fat INTs, where he thinks he has a magical arm and anything he burns in there is perfect. I wouldn't climb too high on the Cutler bandwagon right now. Let it play out. This week, mopey Jay could come back and sink the Bears just as quickly as good Jay has lifted them up. It's not his skill set that's the issue. It's his head.

Yup, let's see how he handles some adversity. Their wasn't much against Seattle.

Shoemaker
01-19-2011, 11:21 AM
Not at all. It's irrelevant.

How in the hell is comparing the statistical performance of the two quarterbacks (one of which you're saying wouldn't have a CHANCE of getting the Bears to the same point the other has) against the same TEAM possibly irrelevant?

Because it might refute your point that Cutler is an amazing, franchise-caliber quarterback and Orton can't even dream of playing on his level?

ColoradoDarin
01-19-2011, 11:21 AM
Living in the Pacific NW, I watch a lot of Seahawks football with my friends up here. Comparing the week two Seattle Seahawks in their second game ever with a new coach, new system, etc. and the Playoff version of the Seahawks isn't valid. They're practically two entirely different teams.

Yeah, I know that a football is round. I also know that it takes more than one game to provide a statistically relevant point. It's amusing to me that you think you've so nailed me on the point that you'd call me out for being exposed and ask me if I know that the ball is round. Kind of makes you look silly.

I asked if you knew the ball was NOT round. Because, you know, it's oblong, and takes funny bounces because of that. Sheesh, I didn't think it'd be that easy.

edog24
01-19-2011, 11:21 AM
So true and so sad! McD was just way in over his head.

I love your avatar, that's my contribution to this thread.

SimonFletcher73
01-19-2011, 11:22 AM
Interception machine comes back this week if concussion machine doesn't beat him there.

Gcver2ver3
01-19-2011, 11:22 AM
i just want to reiterate to anyone willing to listen...

in evaluating the Cutler trade, Cutler vs Orton is not the issue...the issue is how we squandered the picks we got for Cutler...the Richard Quinn, Alphonso Smith, Robert Ayers, and so on is where the problem hits...and McD is to blame for it...and TBO thats what defined him right there as far as i'm concerned...

Cutler is a good QB and i wish him success in the NFC...

and i look forward to us coming back to relevance in the AFC and hopefully with my man Tim Tebow...

vancejohnson82
01-19-2011, 11:23 AM
nah, we weren't going anywhere with the broncos and three small linebackers. Shanny was never gonna get the defense done. Pitt kept 8 in in max protection, and ate Den's lunch.

that was a horrible matchup for us....however, we keep Plummer in those last games in 2006 we at least get into the playoffs and Cutler has to earn the position next offseason

I agreed with the move at the time, but for Burger Bill to take one moment since that move and say "thats when the wheels came off" is a little bit short-sighted.

this team was in full on collapse mode since the end of that season

TonyR
01-19-2011, 11:23 AM
Not at all. It's irrelevant.

If you believe it then it's the truth!

NUB
01-19-2011, 11:23 AM
Cutler hasn't faced a bit of adversity yet. The Bears remind me a lot of the 2005 Broncos. Everything has gone their way really.

I don't think anyone doubts that Cutler has the ability to get his team into this position. What I doubt is his ability to truly get his team to the next level when faced with adversity. I *know* that when his team has the ball on the 2 yard line with 5:32 to play, Cutler will fold like a lawn chair. That's who he is.


Actually, Cutler plays his best football when the team is down. He is also up there in the comeback/winning-drives statistics,

http://www.nfl.com/players/jaycutler/situationalstats?id=CUT288111

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=CutlJa00

Taco John
01-19-2011, 11:24 AM
Hurt? From what I can tell reading this thread, Taco won't be able to read that post because its full of "blah blah blah stats stats stats."

Because statistics don't mean anything, clearly. Its not like comparing and contrasting the numbers of the two quarterbacks performances against the same team MATTERS.


That's right. It's a single data point. It means nothing. You need a larger sample size for your stats to be relevant. More to the point, football isn't played on a crib sheet. It's played on a football field.

Rohirrim
01-19-2011, 11:24 AM
Yup, let's see how he handles some adversity. Their wasn't much against Seattle.

I was always impressed with Cutler's arm. It was his attitude that made me happy to see him go. This is one of the reasons I'm rooting for Sanchez and the Jets. How can a football fan not enjoy the enthusiasm that Sanchez brings to the game? It's like watching a kid in the park play ball. It's fun. Besides, I can't stand the idea of that pig rapist winning anymore. Dog killers and serial rapists. :pity:

TonyR
01-19-2011, 11:24 AM
...in evaluating the Cutler trade, Cutler vs Orton is not the issue...

This bears repeating.

vancejohnson82
01-19-2011, 11:25 AM
LOL. He endured 9 1st half sacks playing without an o-line (being facetious) against the Giants and was concussed. He sat out 1.5 games and was ailing (well documented) from the concussion the two games after he returned. Then went ahead and put up 8 TD's against the Jets and Philly when the Bears defense coincidentally decided to have bad games (giving up 60 combined points). And the Jets game was the biggest and the most important of the regular season for Cut. You didn't watch the Bears and Cutler this year if you think he hasn't faced adversity.

No doubt the nickel and dime sets will cause fits for Cutler this Sunday especially if the Bears get down by multiple scores early. But the Bears D has proved that they can shut down Rodgers too. Cutler and Rodgers are two very good quarterbacks. This is exactly the type of gunslinging playoff duel any non-hater NFL fan wants to see. I mean this isn't Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson taking on Aaron Roders. ;-)

if he plays like he did against the Jets they lose.....he basically spotted them 10 points with a horrible fumble inside his own 4 (the Bears held them to a FG) and a pick six inside his own 20

he's a good QB but that defense doesnt hurt the cause

Rohirrim
01-19-2011, 11:26 AM
Well, at least we've moved on from the Brister/Griese controversy. ;D

Arkie
01-19-2011, 11:27 AM
Let's see:

Cutler at home against Seattle 2010: 15/28 53.6% 274 yards 2 TD 0 Int 111.3 Rating

Orton at home against Seattle 2010: 25/35 71.4% 307 yards 2 TD 0 Int 117.2 Rating

Yeah, I think Kyle Orton could have done pretty much the same as Jay Cutler did last week since he did it already this year. Honestly, I was surprised by Cutler's rating in that game with only 53% completions.

Taco's brilliance for all to see yet again! Tell me, do you even know that a football is not round?

Cutler at home against Seattle October 17, 2010: 17/39 43.6% 290 yards 0 TD 0 INT 69.4 rating

Taco John
01-19-2011, 11:27 AM
How in the hell is comparing the statistical performance of the two quarterbacks (one of which you're saying wouldn't have a CHANCE of getting the Bears to the same point the other has) against the same TEAM possibly irrelevant?

It's not even the same team. You're comparing week two of Pete Carroll's Seahawks to Playoff Round Two of Pete Carroll's Seahawks. It's an irrelevant comparison. They've gone through an entire season of working together. It's a single data point, not a data set. It's irrelevant. It doesn't refute anything.

orangemonkey
01-19-2011, 11:28 AM
if he plays like he did against the Jets they lose.....he basically spotted them 10 points with a horrible fumble inside his own 4 (the Bears held them to a FG) and a pick six inside his own 20

he's a good QB but that defense doesnt hurt the cause

Wow big surprise against a top 5 defense, eh? That's a probable assertion if Rodgers and the Packers play mistake free ball. The Bears, like the Jets, are pretty good at takeaways too.

Steve Prefontaine
01-19-2011, 11:28 AM
Cutler deal was beginning of end for Denver

It’s official. No more Denver.

Gcver2ver3
01-19-2011, 11:30 AM
You are spinning your wheels if you think you can just trade Cutler for Orton and get the same results. And sorry, but that's moronic. Orton is a fine caretaker of the ball, but he's not a game closer. If he was, we'd have a lot more than 4 wins this year.

its not moronic...and i don't buy into having to insult someone in order to try and get my point accross...it accomplishes nothing and only escalates a debate and no one listens to the other...

i am not saying Orton > Cutler...what i'm telling you is for what we received for Cutler which INCLUDES Orton, when you compare their play theres not a huge difference...they both have different ways of being effective...but if we had used the rest of the picks that the Bears gave us in addition to Orton properly, we'd be in much better shape right now and this debate would be moot...

there are many folks on the Bears forums that were hyping Orton the same way you're hyping Cutler when Orton was putting up big numbers and winning games...at the end of the day, they both have had their moments and one hasn't necessarily separated himslef from the other, at least not yet...the numbers are clear evidence to this...

if i had to pick, i'd say Cutler is slightly better than Orton, but as i said, had we not squandered the picks in addition to Orton, we'd be a lot better off...

UberBroncoMan
01-19-2011, 11:32 AM
We could have won the trade if we used the picks right. Chicago is where they are because of their defense and signing Peppers...not Cutler.

ColoradoDarin
01-19-2011, 11:32 AM
It's not even the same team. You're comparing week two of Pete Carroll's Seahawks to Playoff Round Two of Pete Carroll's Seahawks. It's an irrelevant comparison. They've gone through an entire season of working together. It's a single data point, not a data set. It's irrelevant. It doesn't refute anything.

You're now asking for data when you were the one to start out asserting that "Orton winning that game? Hahahahahahahaha! Are you effing serious?"

You weren't asking for statistically meaningful samples, you asked if Orton could win that one game.

Just keep moving the goal posts when you're wrong and never admit it!!!

yerner
01-19-2011, 11:33 AM
Are they still debating this on the bears message boards?

Taco John
01-19-2011, 11:35 AM
but if we had used the rest of the picks that the Bears gave us in addition to Orton properly, we'd be in much better shape right now and this debate would be moot...




Well, you're absolutely right about that. We could have Orakpo and Clay Matthews Jr. on our team right now, and instead we've got Moreno and Ayers. Those two moves alone would have made a huge difference. No telling what we could have done

there are many folks on the Bears forums that were hyping Orton the same way you're hyping Cutler when Orton was putting up big numbers and winning games...at the end of the day, they both have had their moments and one hasn't necessarily separated himslef from the other, at least not yet...the numbers are clear evidence to this...

I just can't fathom your point here. It's, to me, like you are living in a completely different world where last week's game never happened, along with so many other games that Cutler has had that Orton couldn't dream of. Cutler has had 6 or 7 four touchdown games at this point in his career. Orton has had one. Trying to compare the two and saying that they haven't seperated themselves from the other... I just can't fathom how anybody could seriously believe this. Blows my mind.

TonyR
01-19-2011, 11:35 AM
We could have won the trade if we used the picks right. Chicago is where they are because of their defense and signing Peppers...not Cutler.

Yup, exactly. The Cutler lovers are upset becase they think we're not giving him any credit. He deserves some credit. He's improved and done a nice job overall, played very well down the stretch. But anyone who won't acknowledge that the Bears success is mostly attributable to their defense isn't worth arguing with. Not much different than the Steelers and the Jets, and even the Packers to a lesser extent.

ColoradoDarin
01-19-2011, 11:36 AM
Yup, exactly. The Cutler lovers are upset becase they think we're not giving him any credit. He deserves some credit. He's improved and done a nice job overall, played very well down the stretch. But anyone who won't acknowledge that the Bears success is mostly attributable to their defense isn't worth arguing with. Not much different than the Steelers and the Jets, and even the Packers to a lesser extent.

Don't forget their ST too.

Gutless Drunk
01-19-2011, 11:37 AM
Cutler at home against Seattle October 17, 2010: 17/39 43.6% 290 yards 0 TD 0 INT 69.4 rating

Orton at home VS New York 14/34 209 41.2% 1TD 71.8 Rating
Culter at home VS New York 13 /25 215 52.0% 3 TD 104.2 Rating

Dedhed
01-19-2011, 11:38 AM
Drafting Cutler ruined the broncos!Fixed it for you.

Gcver2ver3
01-19-2011, 11:38 AM
Are they still debating this on the bears message boards?

probably not near as much because Cutler is their golden boy again and theyre in the playoffs...

but take it from someone that has visited the bears forum very very often...whenever Orton played well, the Orton lovers would be out in full effect bashing cutler and praising orton...

their board is no different than ours...now that Cutler is in the playoffs and Orton is on the sidelines, the Cutler lovers are out and strong...

the people on the Bears boards were brutal on Cutler and not just last season but this season too...but things are going well for Chicago right now, but the moment Cutler has another "Cutler" type game, the Cutler haters and Orton lovers will be all over it...

BroncoInferno
01-19-2011, 11:39 AM
Did all these people praising the Bears defense just completely miss the fact that Matt Hasselback and the Seahawks score 3 TDs and a fieldgoal in the second half of a playoff game? Where were you guys?

I was watching the game. I have to question if you were. The game was 35-10 in the 4th quarter and the Hawks had done nothing on offense all day. They got two TDs in garbage time after the game was decided and Chicago called off the dogs. If you watched the game, you are either being dishonest of your portrayal of it or ignorant of what you saw. Jay had a fine game against a losing team. We will see how he does this week. Right now, he's just Rex Grossman 2.0 in the eyes of any objective person.

BroncoInferno
01-19-2011, 11:42 AM
Well, you're absolutely right about that. We could have Orakpo and Clay Matthews Jr. on our team right now, and instead we've got Moreno and Ayers. Those two moves alone would have made a huge difference. No telling what we could have done

We wouldn't have drafted two guys who projected to outside linebacker in a 3-4 when we already had Doom to fill one spot. I have a feeling the Ayers pick is going to look a lot better now that he will get some real defensive coaching and get to move to strong side end, which is his natural position.

VT_Bronco
01-19-2011, 11:46 AM
Not sure why all the Cutler hype recently. He basically has accomplished what Jake Plummer has done, win a home playoff game with a strong defense and running game.

Now he has a chance to do what Plummer couldn't do, win the conference championship game at home against a team with a good D. If he does that he deserves props, if not and he turns back into an interception machine hopefully this debate will die.

jhns
01-19-2011, 11:46 AM
Right now, he's just Rex Grossman 2.0 in the eyes of any objective person.

You mean to those that have no idea what they are talking about.

baja
01-19-2011, 11:50 AM
i think the remainder of my post said it all...

we were a better team before the Cutler trade then we are now...THATs the real issue...had we properly utilized the value we received for Cutler, it would be a different story, i'm convinced of that...but the numbers and our eyeballs make it clear...Culter isn't the reason the Bears are in the title game...they couldve had Orton and the same thing could've occurred...

Actually you can make a case they would have been better with Orton because they would have had 2 more first round picks and a 5th.

vancejohnson82
01-19-2011, 11:51 AM
You mean to those that have no idea what they are talking about.

i actually agree with you...

in fact, I think he is more like Favre....great arm, takes his share of chances, etc...

Rohirrim
01-19-2011, 11:52 AM
If I'm Dom Capers, I'm incorporating a general theme of harassment against Jay. Knock him down. Bump him. Hit him. Frustate him. And watch him fold up and blow away.

Pony Boy
01-19-2011, 11:52 AM
Lord help us if Culter wins a Super Bowl....... nuclear meltdown on the OM

Steve Sewell
01-19-2011, 11:54 AM
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQIqrVkOocRWvOQBrrZaLaIznueJd0ax x4ZARD64pJBGuMH_IyW

Crushaholic
01-19-2011, 11:55 AM
Kyle Orton didn't win these kinds of games for them:
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010122600/2010/REG16/jets@bears
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010112804/2010/REG12/eagles@bears


You're crazy if you think that the Bears team doesn't appreciate the contributions that Jay has made to their run up to the NFC Championship game.

I looked at those stats. I found something very curious, TJ. Matt Forte rushed for over 100 yards, during those two games. The running game was nonexistent in Denver, this year. That's what makes Orton the winner in this debate.

Also, the Bears built up a big lead against Philly, and held on for the win...sort of like what we did against KC, in Denver...

BroncoInferno
01-19-2011, 11:55 AM
You mean to those that have no idea what they are talking about.

He's middle of the road by any objective standard you can name. Of course, guys like you with his jizz in your eyes make it sound like he is some kind of Joe Montana comeback king with intangibles coming out of his ass. Laughably ignorant.

bendog
01-19-2011, 11:56 AM
I can't believe any sentient being would argue Orton is a better qb than Cutler. McD cult of personality.

BroncoInferno
01-19-2011, 11:57 AM
I can't believe any sentient being would argue Orton is a better qb than Cutler. McD cult of personality.

I can't believe any sentient being would argue that Cutler is better than a middle of the road QB at this point.

Rashomon
01-19-2011, 11:57 AM
Actually you can make a case they would have been better with Orton because they would have had 2 more first round picks and a 5th.

I think Chicago fans rationalization of that is that they draft as badly as McDaniels did, so it is doubtful those first round picks would have worked out for them anyway.

Gutless Drunk
01-19-2011, 11:57 AM
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/22908/double-coverage-the-cutler-trade-revisited

Let's play a game of addition.

1. The starting quarterback is the most important player on any football team.

2. The Chicago Bears finished the regular season 11-5, won the NFC North division title and will host the NFC Championship Game on Sunday at Soldier Field.

3. Jay Cutler is the biggest reason why.


So, in this case, does 1+2=3? Did the Bears need Cutler as their quarterback to advance this far? Was he the key to their resurgence this season? Or could they have followed the same path without making the 2009 blockbuster trade that cost them three high draft choices? In today's Double Coverage, ESPNChicago.com's Jeff Dickerson and ESPN.com NFC North blogger Kevin Seifert discuss that very question.

Kevin Seifert: Jeff, you've been covering the Bears for years. You saw them go to Super Bowl XLI with Rex Grossman as their quarterback. You've lived through Kordell Stewart, Craig Krenzel, Chad Hutchinson, Brian Griese and Kyle Orton. You've seen a team win in spite of its quarterback, and you've seen quarterbacks single-handedly lose games. Let's start it off this way: How much credit do you think Cutler should get for the Bears sitting one step from the Super Bowl?

Jeff Dickerson: Cutler deserves plenty of credit, Kevin. As much as we want to hammer Cutler for his mistakes -- more on that later, I'm sure -- you can't overlook the fact his quarterback rating was above 100 six times in the regular season. And you guessed it: the Bears won all six of those games.

So if the most important player on the field was arguably the best player on the field nearly half the time, I find it impossible to minimize the positive impact Cutler had on the Bears' playoff run. Is he going to run for public office after he's finished playing football? No. Does he care that we're talking about him today, either good or bad? No. But to sit back and say Cutler was simply along for the ride wouldn't be doing his contributions much justice.

And by the way, thanks for bringing up Chad Hutchinson. I was trying to suppress that memory. What's next? Are we going to break down the NFL career of Jonathan Quinn? I could talk bad Bears quarterbacks all day.

KS: Any time. How about this: Cade McNown, Henry Burris, Shane Matthews and Steve Stenstrom. That pretty much covers it for our generation, I think.

Anyway, I agree it would be wrong to overlook some of Cutler's individual performances this season. He bounced back from some early hits in Week 2 to throw three touchdown passes against the Dallas Cowboys in a 27-20 victory. He forgot about the early interception against the New York Jets and went on to throw for another three touchdowns in a 38-34 victory. His performance against the Philadelphia Eagles -- four touchdown passes, 146.2 passer rating -- was superb. And don't forget his late-game drive against the Detroit Lions in Week 13, the one that locked up the division title.

But I think the question at hand is whether the Bears would have won 11 games with, say, Orton at quarterback. To me, Cutler was not among the top two reasons for the Bears' success this season.

More important was the defense, which limited opponents to 17.9 points per game, and the best special teams in the NFL. As a result of those two factors, Cutler and the rest of the Bears' offense had the best head start in the NFL. No offense had a better average start of its drive (33.7-yard line) than the Bears'.

Do you think the Bears win those games with Orton?

JD: I must first admit to being a card-carrying member of the Kyle Orton fan club. Is there a more underappreciated quarterback in the NFL? That being said, I think you could make the playoffs with a guy like Orton, but the Bears are in a better position to potentially win a Super Bowl with a guy like Cutler.

Let me explain.

I firmly believe if Orton quarterbacked the Bears in 2009 they probably would have won three more regular-season games (against the Packers, Atlanta Falcons and San Francisco 49ers). They would have finished 10-6 and perhaps earned an NFC wild-card playoff berth. Cutler cost the Bears those games because of a barrage of turnovers and terrible decisions. But that's where the ride would've ended with Orton, in my opinion.

Could Orton have beaten the Cowboys, Eagles or Jets in 2010? Maybe. But with apologies to Jim Mora, we're talking playoffs, Kevin, playoffs!

Believe me, I know Cutler's only career postseason victory came against Seattle this past weekend, and he could easily go out Sunday and throw five interceptions against the Packers. But he could just as easily throw five touchdowns.

That's why the Bears are better off with Cutler -- because Orton hit his glass ceiling as an NFL quarterback. Cutler has not. Look at how Cutler tore up the Jets. The defense struggled, and it needed a lift from the quarterback position to beat a tough opponent. Cutler delivered. I'm not saying Orton is incapable of leading a team to victory over playoff-quality teams, but the chances Cutler can do it are greater.

Sorry, Kyle. I loved your neck beard. But I have to go with Cutler on this one.

KS: It's all fantasy talk, of course. We'll never know if Orton would have played well enough last year to compel the Bears to keep offensive coordinator Ron Turner this season. We also don't know if Mike Martz would have wanted Orton this season.

But the Bears gave up two first-round draft picks and a third-rounder for Cutler. Has he provided them enough value for those picks? Or could they have used those draft picks to improve themselves in other areas?


It would be wrong to say that Cutler hasn't had a positive impact on the Bears this season, but I'm not willing to say he was the key to the Bears' division title, either. But if the Bears go to the Super Bowl, no one is going to care about that distinction.

JD: And you know Cutler is happiest when nobody cares!

I guess it's possible Jerry Angelo would have turned those two first-round selections into starting-caliber players. But I've seen the Bears use high draft choices on the likes of Michael Haynes, Roosevelt Williams, Mark Bradley, Dusty Dvoracek, Dan Bazuin, Michael Okwo, Jarron Gilbert and Juaquin Iglesias. So to assume Angelo would've waved his magic draft wand and taken the right guys? Well, that would be misguided, to say the least. Despite all the warts, I'm happy with Cutler and feel the Bears are now in a better position to win their first Super Bowl since the 1985 season because of him.

I could talk bad Bears draft picks all day.

KS: Spoken like a longtime Bears follower. Basically what you're saying is that while Cutler has demonstrated some flaws, his acquisition nevertheless prevented the Bears from making another series of draft mistakes! Perfect. I love it.

On that note, Jeff, this has been fun. I think we can agree Cutler has made a positive impact on the Bears' run to the NFC Championship Game. Could they have done it without him? That's up for debate.

Gcver2ver3
01-19-2011, 11:57 AM
Actually you can make a case they would have been better with Orton because they would have had 2 more first round picks and a 5th.

correct...

jhns
01-19-2011, 11:57 AM
i actually agree with you...

in fact, I think he is more like Favre....great arm, takes his share of chances, etc...

Yup. He will lose you some games that you shouldn't have lost and win you some games that you had no business being in. That is what he is. If he continues his current trend of losing fewer and fewer games for his team, he will become an elite QB. Just as Shanahan predicted.

Popps
01-19-2011, 11:59 AM
I'll bet Bill pumped this one out while waiting in line at Sonic.

LOL

Cutler has ridden the coattails of a great defense and running game. (Gosh, where have we heard that idea before?)

Shame that our philosophy was to ignore the defense for a decade. Otherwise, we might have been able to win more playoff games with QBs like Plummer and Cutler.

Instead, we drafted bizarre players... signed cast-offs and passed on premiere defensive players for ten years.... and expected some sort of miracle QB performance to dig us out of holes every game.

Chicago has had the formula correct. Play D, run the ball.

That's why they're on the verge of going to a SB with a QB like Jay Cutler, who's just another version of Rex Grossman.

It's not a coincidence that two erratic QB's of that nature are being carried to playoff wins.

LRtagger
01-19-2011, 12:02 PM
If Cutler ****s the bed in the NFCC game, should Chicago draft a QB next year to replace him?

Team wins division
#2 seed in playoffs
Wins 2nd round game at home
*Has poor championship game against #6 seed at home
**Draft new QB


Sounds familiar.

TonyR
01-19-2011, 12:02 PM
I looked at those stats. I found something very curious, TJ. Matt Forte rushed for over 100 yards, during those two games. The running game was nonexistent in Denver, this year. That's what makes Orton the winner in this debate.


I noticed that too. They ran the ball effectively, won the turnover battle, and only needed Cutler to complete 27 passes combined. Credit to Cutler for making some plays when needed, but let's hold off on the coronation.

TonyR
01-19-2011, 12:04 PM
Not sure why all the Cutler hype recently. He basically has accomplished what Jake Plummer has done, win a home playoff game with a strong defense and running game.

Now he has a chance to do what Plummer couldn't do, win the conference championship game at home against a team with a good D. If he does that he deserves props, if not and he turns back into an interception machine hopefully this debate will die.

That's actually an interesting point. Well done.

bendog
01-19-2011, 12:06 PM
Exactly. I think the only pt is that Cutler wasn't going to get even that far in Den so long as either Shanny or McD were here, and there's no way Orton ever will. It's sort of a double double fail.

Agamemnon
01-19-2011, 12:08 PM
Oh noes, we traded a guy that has still yet to break a season passer rating of 90 after five seasons! We're doomed! Hilarious!

Tebow >>>>> Cutler

DrFate
01-19-2011, 12:14 PM
Are they still debating this on the bears message boards?

Doubtful - they are one game from the Super Bowl

Gutless Drunk
01-19-2011, 12:14 PM
Oh noes, we traded a guy that has still yet to break a season passer rating of 90 after five seasons! We're doomed! Hilarious!

Tebow >>>>> Cutler

Right now?

Because I'm pretty sure if you asked all the coaches who they would take to win a game tomorrow 32 of 32 would say:

Cutler >>>>>> Tebow

orangemonkey
01-19-2011, 12:22 PM
LOL

Cutler has ridden the coattails of a great defense and running game. (Gosh, where have we heard that idea before?)

Shame that our philosophy was to ignore the defense for a decade. Otherwise, we might have been able to win more playoff games with QBs like Plummer and Cutler.

Instead, we drafted bizarre players... signed cast-offs and passed on premiere defensive players for ten years.... and expected some sort of miracle QB performance to dig us out of holes every game.

Chicago has had the formula correct. Play D, run the ball.

That's why they're on the verge of going to a SB with a QB like Jay Cutler, who's just another version of Rex Grossman.

It's not a coincidence that two erratic QB's of that nature are being carried to playoff wins.

You are absolutely spot-on about this. And, it's the same formula that the other 3 playoff teams have correct also. And I'll tell you what (sounding like Elway), if the Bears get another O-lineman and legit receiver, Cutler will continue to flourish/improve like he is now. At that point, like Urlacher said two weeks ago, the Bears will be perennial playoff contenders.

TonyR
01-19-2011, 12:24 PM
And, it's the same formula that the other 3 playoff teams have correct also.

Agree with the overall point but you could make a little bit of an exception for Green Bay. They don't run the ball very well and lean heavily on Aaron Rodgers in a way that Chicago doesn't have to on Cutler. But Green Bay's defense is very good as is that of every team remaining.

jhns
01-19-2011, 12:26 PM
Right now?

Because I'm pretty sure if you asked all the coaches who they would take to win a game tomorrow 32 of 32 would say:

Cutler >>>>>> Tebow

I think it is safe to assume that a lot of the really new posters are Tebow fanboys that came here because of him. I love Tebow but he isn't as good as Cutler yet. He hasn't proven that he will be either. As far as I'm concerned, he has only proven that he should get a chance to start next season.

WolfpackGuy
01-19-2011, 12:27 PM
Passer rating is a BS stat.

John Elway had a CAREER passer rating of 79.9.

I don't think anyone was calling him a terrible QB even before the Super Bowl wins.

http://www.profootballhof.com/history/release.aspx?release_id=1990

orangemonkey
01-19-2011, 12:30 PM
Agree with the overall point but you could make a little bit of an exception for Green Bay. They don't run the ball very well and lean heavily on Aaron Rodgers in a way that Chicago doesn't have to on Cutler. But Green Bay's defense is very good as is that of every team remaining.

I agree, and believe Rodgers is playing better than the other three right now. The Bears running game is marginally better but Starks is getting better for the Packers. He ran over 100 yards against Philly during wildcard weekend.

jhns
01-19-2011, 12:32 PM
He's middle of the road by any objective standard you can name. Of course, guys like you with his jizz in your eyes make it sound like he is some kind of Joe Montana comeback king with intangibles coming out of his ass. Laughably ignorant.

Whatever you say big guy. Cutler is going to continue making all of you look stupid the same way McDaniels did. It will be fun seeing these conversations bumped so we can laugh at those that have no clue what they are talking about. It wouldn't be so funny if they didn't pretend they did.

Gort
01-19-2011, 12:48 PM
... and there's rumor Denver could have had Ed Reed.

and don't forget Foneco.

BroncosMT
01-19-2011, 12:49 PM
and don't forget Foneco.

:strong:

Dedhed
01-19-2011, 12:51 PM
Well, you're absolutely right about that. We could have Orakpo and Clay Matthews Jr. on our team right now, and instead we've got Moreno and Ayers. Those two moves alone would have made a huge difference. No telling what we could have done


We could also have Haloti Ngata and Ed Reed instead of frown cannon and Ashley "I'm a #1 WR" Lelie. Those two moves alone would have made a huge difference. No telling what we could have done

Gort
01-19-2011, 12:51 PM
If Cutler ****s the bed in the NFCC game, should Chicago draft a QB next year to replace him?

Team wins division
#2 seed in playoffs
Wins 2nd round game at home
*Has poor championship game against #6 seed at home
**Draft new QB


Sounds familiar.

don't forget they got a gift in their first playoff game. the 7-9 Seahawks who had already used up all their magic beans the week before with NO.

but to the Cutler lovers, that doesn't matter. Cutler won a playoff game so he's HOF worthy now.

i hope GB stomps the stuffing out of Cutler and the Bears. that would be hilarious.

bendog
01-19-2011, 12:52 PM
We could also have Haloti Ngata and Ed Reed instead of frown cannon and Ashley "I'm a #1 WR" Lelie. Those two moves alone would have made a huge difference. No telling what we could have done

tiny would have traded them. And even with them, the team goes nowhere without a qb.

Gort
01-19-2011, 12:54 PM
Right now?

Because I'm pretty sure if you asked all the coaches who they would take to win a game tomorrow 32 of 32 would say:

Cutler >>>>>> Tebow

and they'd also say...

Manning >>>> Cutler
Brady >>>> Cutler
Rivers >>>> Cutler
Brees >>>> Cutler
Rodgers >>>> Cutler

so what's your point? that a 5th year NFL QB is better than a rookie QB? because if that is, then bravo. well played.

/sarc

OABB
01-19-2011, 12:56 PM
We could also have Haloti Ngata and Ed Reed instead of frown cannon and Ashley "I'm a #1 WR" Lelie. Those two moves alone would have made a huge difference. No telling what we could have done

****ing mcdaniels!

bendog
01-19-2011, 12:56 PM
and they'd also say...

Manning >>>> Cutler
Brady >>>> Cutler
Rivers >>>> Cutler
Brees >>>> Cutler
Rodgers >>>> Cutler

so what's your point? that a 5th year NFL QB is better than a rookie QB? because if that is, then bravo. well played.

/sarc

We're better than we were in 08. REALLY!

jhns
01-19-2011, 12:59 PM
and they'd also say...

Manning >>>> Cutler
Brady >>>> Cutler
Rivers >>>> Cutler
Brees >>>> Cutler
Rodgers >>>> Cutler

so what's your point? that a 5th year NFL QB is better than a rookie QB? because if that is, then bravo. well played.

/sarc

He didn't just randomly come with that. Maybe you should respond to the person that said different. Your post is pretty dumb considering the facts.

Gutless Drunk
01-19-2011, 01:00 PM
and they'd also say...

Manning >>>> Cutler
Brady >>>> Cutler
Rivers >>>> Cutler
Brees >>>> Cutler
Rodgers >>>> Cutler

so what's your point? that a 5th year NFL QB is better than a rookie QB? because if that is, then bravo. well played.

/sarc

ahhhh...no...my point was the previous post stating that a rookie QB was in fact better than a 5th year QB was dubious. See:
"Tebow >>>>> Cutler"

Thanks for backing up my point, though, even if you didn't understand it.

Gort
01-19-2011, 01:01 PM
We're better than we were in 08. REALLY!

Cutler/Marshall/Scheffler/no RB

vs.

Tebow/Orton/Lloyd/Gaffney/no TE/no RB

it's a push. the problem in Denver isn't the O, it's the D.

if Cutler were here, we'd still suck and we'd have a whiny emo QB who refuses to answer straightforward postgame questions.

get over it. he's gone. we don't miss him.

jhns
01-19-2011, 01:05 PM
Cutler/Marshall/Scheffler/no RB

vs.

Tebow/Orton/Lloyd/Gaffney/no TE/no RB

it's a push. the problem in Denver isn't the O, it's the D.

if Cutler were here, we'd still suck and we'd have a whiny emo QB who refuses to answer straightforward postgame questions.

get over it. he's gone. we don't miss him.

No, the problem was the D and special teams. The problem now is the defense, special teams, and offense.

You are really claiming that we are no worse off after we just witnessed the worst season in many decades? Funny stuff.

TheReverend
01-19-2011, 01:06 PM
Good article. Had to do a triple take at it's author

Jay3
01-19-2011, 01:06 PM
And if the Bears get pimp-slapped by the Packers, it will go back in a circle this year. The Bears haven't done much this postseason.

And if Tebow hits, and D.T. hits, someone will finally have the guts to say they got those two players because of the trade.

Just get Tebow on the field. The Broncos will one day thank their lucky stars they ended up with Tebow instead of Cutler.

Gort
01-19-2011, 01:07 PM
ahhhh...no...my point was the previous post stating that a rookie QB was in fact better than a 5th year QB was dubious. See:
"Tebow >>>>> Cutler"

Thanks for backing up my point, though, even if you didn't understand it.

that's not what you responded to though. you quoted what you were responding to and it wasn't what you say above.

Cutler has more raw talent than Tebow as a passer
Cutler has more experience than Tebow in the NFL
Tebow has more intangibles than Cutler
Tebow has a better attitude than Cutler

i take these 4 things to be mutually agreed upon facts by all sides of this argument.

Gort
01-19-2011, 01:10 PM
No, the problem was the D and special teams. The problem now is the defense, special teams, and offense.

You are really claiming that we are no worse off after we just witnessed the worst season in many decades? Funny stuff.

seriously? seriously??

the 2008 offense was as much a problem as the current offense.

you're just not credible if you try to argue otherwise.

in 2008, we moved the ball up and down the field but couldn't score from the redzone. both were bad (2008 and 2010), but neither are were the most pressing problem on the team. we ran better in 2008. we finally found a rezone offense late in 2010. otherwise, i call it a push.

baja
01-19-2011, 01:12 PM
Cutler/Marshall/Scheffler/no RB

vs.

Tebow/Orton/Lloyd/Gaffney/no TE/no RB

it's a push. the problem in Denver isn't the O, it's the D.

if Cutler were here, we'd still suck and we'd have a whiny emo QB who refuses to answer straightforward postgame questions.

get over it. he's gone. we don't miss him.

I have always had a hard time understanding what the term EMO really meant but thanks to Jay Cutler being one I now understand what the term means. ;D

baja
01-19-2011, 01:14 PM
And if the Bears get pimp-slapped by the Packers, it will go back in a circle this year. The Bears haven't done much this postseason.

And if Tebow hits, and D.T. hits, someone will finally have the guts to say they got those two players because of the trade.

<b>Just get Tebow on the field. The Broncos will one day thank their lucky stars they ended up with Tebow instead of Cutler.

This is what I have been saying all along.

I also think think we are not as bad off personal wise as people here bemoan.

TheReverend
01-19-2011, 01:17 PM
that's not what you responded to though. you quoted what you were responding to and it wasn't what you say above.

Cutler has more raw talent than Tebow as a passer
Cutler has more experience than Tebow in the NFL
Tebow has more intangibles than Cutler
Tebow has a better attitude than Cutler

i take these 4 things to be mutually agreed upon facts by all sides of this argument.

Don't see how anyone could disagree.

seriously? seriously??

the 2008 offense was as much a problem as the current offense.

you're just not credible if you try to argue otherwise.

in 2008, we moved the ball up and down the field but couldn't score from the redzone. both were bad (2008 and 2010), but neither are were the most pressing problem on the team. we ran better in 2008. we finally found a rezone offense late in 2010. otherwise, i call it a push.

But THAT is just ridiculous.

We were statistically superior in EVERY way in 2008. Significantly better at moving the ball. Better at scoring. FIFTY percent better at picking up third downs. Better at passing, better at running (despite losing 7 RBs). Better at winning football games.

TDmvp
01-19-2011, 01:18 PM
The Bears Don't even win the north without Cutler , The Packers Do...

If the Bears Don't beat the Jets , The Pack wins the Divi

And Jay Cutler Beat the Jets , not the Bears D ...


Carry on...

Gort
01-19-2011, 01:19 PM
This is what I have been saying all along.

I also think think we are not as bad off personal wise as people here bemoan.

we are, but not on the offensive side of the ball. the Cutler lovers apparently believe that Cutler also played defense and special teams. other than perhaps 25 times a year when he gets an opportunity to tackle somebody who has intercepted one of his ill-advised passes, Cutler doesn't play defense.

the Broncos are really bad because of their defense and lack of overall depth on the roster. at the skill offensive positions, they aren't too bad off. it's not like we got rid of Cutler and replaced him with Chad Pennington. we still have a competent QB in Orton, and a potentially above average QB in Tebow. the guy has proven that he can throw the deep ball and that he can throw accurately. we all saw it when he got to start. all that pre-draft BS has been put to rest. he just needs a good QB coach to help him improve his overall NFL game.

jhns
01-19-2011, 01:20 PM
seriously? seriously??

the 2008 offense was as much a problem as the current offense.

you're just not credible if you try to argue otherwise.

in 2008, we moved the ball up and down the field but couldn't score from the redzone. both were bad (2008 and 2010), but neither are were the most pressing problem on the team. we ran better in 2008. we finally found a rezone offense late in 2010. otherwise, i call it a push.

Umm, we scored a lot more than they did this year. That offense was also made up of rookie to third year players. In fact, they were that young at all but 3 starting positions. Of course they were somewhat inconsistent. They were still way better than this past season. You claiming otherwise is just funny. We had a better special teams this year. We had a defense that gave up almost the exact same number of points per game(even though the Cutler led offense held the ball and made it so that defense saw the second fewest possessions in the league, yes, even with the turnovers...).. All of this and we finished with twice as many wins in 2008. You are a joke.

jhns
01-19-2011, 01:22 PM
Don't see how anyone could disagree.



But THAT is just ridiculous.

We were statistically superior in EVERY way in 2008. Significantly better at moving the ball. Better at scoring. FIFTY percent better at picking up third downs. Better at passing, better at running (despite losing 7 RBs). Better at winning football games.

Yeah, facts don't matter to the McDaniels fan. They wouldn't be able to argue anything if they included them.

Inkana7
01-19-2011, 01:22 PM
Yap yap yap stats stats stats.

Stats mean nothing when you're playing the Eagles and need to out score them to beat them. Where was the Bears defense for this game? (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010112804/2010/REG12/eagles@bears)

I'll tell you where they were: lining up to high five Cutler for winning the game.

I like Orton, but I couldn't find you one single game in his entire career where he pulled off a similar feat against a similarly talented team.

Cutler did not win that game. The Eagles offense was completely shut down until Vick threw that insane pass to Celek that made it kind of close, but the Bears D held on for a win.

Stop referencing that win without having watched it.

bendog
01-19-2011, 01:24 PM
We are better than we were in 08! really!!

Gort
01-19-2011, 01:25 PM
Don't see how anyone could disagree.



But THAT is just ridiculous.

We were statistically superior in EVERY way in 2008. Significantly better at moving the ball. Better at scoring. FIFTY percent better at picking up third downs. Better at passing, better at running (despite losing 7 RBs). Better at winning football games.

not true.

in 2008, they were 16th in points.
in 2010, they were 19th in points.

who cares if you move the ball between the 20's? Cutler was a turnover machine inside the redzone.

i consider the offensive results in 2008 and 2010 to be essentially the same. 370 points scored in 2008 vs. 344 points scored in 2010. that's a difference of less than 2 pts per game.

it's the defense that's the problem. both in 2008 and 2010.

yerner
01-19-2011, 01:26 PM
Doubtful - they are one game from the Super Bowl

exactly. there isn't a probably a bears fan that would undo that trade. they won it.

TheReverend
01-19-2011, 01:28 PM
Cutler did not win that game. The Eagles offense was completely shut down until Vick threw that insane pass to Celek that made it kind of close, but the Bears D held on for a win.

Stop referencing that win without having watched it.

I watched that game. Are you claiming a 30 yard pass out of 400 yards of offense = "shut down"?

OABB
01-19-2011, 01:29 PM
exactly. there isn't a probably a bears fan that would undo that trade. they won it.

jhns would.

WolfpackGuy
01-19-2011, 01:29 PM
exactly. there isn't a probably a bears fan that would undo that trade. they won it.

You're right.

They would do that trade everytime.

The *hit will really hit the fan if Tebow doesn't pan out and Thomas doesn't stay healthy.

TheReverend
01-19-2011, 01:31 PM
not true.

in 2008, they were 16th in points.
in 2010, they were 19th in points.

who cares if you move the ball between the 20's? Cutler was a turnover machine inside the redzone.

i consider the offensive results in 2008 and 2010 to be essentially the same. 370 points scored in 2008 vs. 344 points scored in 2010. that's a difference of less than 2 pts per game.

it's the defense that's the problem. both in 2008 and 2010.

How do you say "not true" and then go on to confirm that it is, in fact, true?

Hilarious!

Are you also aware that 2 pts per game equates to about 7 ranking spots in scoring? Are you also aware that 2008s ppg wouldve been 13 this season (not to mention 2010 saw us face our easiest schedule that I can remember - we played the 2 worst divisions in football, and the third worst twice)

Gort
01-19-2011, 01:32 PM
Umm, we scored a lot more than they did this year. That offense was also made up of rookie to third year players. In fact, they were that young at all but 3 starting positions. Of course they were somewhat inconsistent. They were still way better than this past season. You claiming otherwise is just funny. We had a better special teams this year. We had a defense that gave up almost the exact same number of points per game(even though the Cutler led offense held the ball and made it so that defense saw the second fewest possessions in the league, yes, even with the turnovers...).. All of this and we finished with twice as many wins in 2008. You are a joke.

oh. i forgot i was arguing with a child. here's an argument you can understand.

2008 vs. 2010

i say both teams were essentially the same, so whether Cutler was here or not doesn't make a difference in the outcome. both teams were bad. both offenses were adequate, but nothing special. the defense was atrocious. both years. that's where this franchise has a problem. that's what McD didn't address. that's still our problem. whether Cutler were here or not, we'd still have big problems. the difference between 8-8 and 4-12 is less than it appears. for a bad team, a couple of lucky breaks can move you from 6-10 to 8-8. and a couple of bad breaks can move you from 6-10 to 4-12. i'd say both teams deserved to be about 6-10 +/- 2 wins.

in 2008 they were 16th in points.
in 2010 they were 19th in points.
in 2008 they were 30th in allowing points.
in 2010 they were 32nd in allowing points.

why do you think that 2008 was a much better team than 2010? besides the fact that you could watch the games in 2008 with your hand down your pants. they were essentially the same teams. both had some skilled offensive players, but the overall offense wasn't anything special. both had atrocious defenses.

jhns
01-19-2011, 01:37 PM
LOL

I can't even continue that argument. A 4-12 team is the exact same as an 8-8 team now? McDaniel fans get more ridiculous with each passing day.

TheReverend
01-19-2011, 01:38 PM
For the people thinking the defense is jealous by the media attention Cutler is getting:

URLACHER:

On playing defense with a good offense:
"We were on the sideline for most of the game. It's easy to play defense when you're not playing. We did a good job, our offense converted third downs, scored a lot of points for us. It's fun to watch. They protected the quarterback. Everything on offense we wanted to do, we did."

On Jay Cutler's play:
"Awesome. Played great. I don't think he had any turnovers or anything like that. He threw the ball when he had to. Threw it away when he had to, ran it when he had to. Awesome, for his first playoff start."

And he's been saying this since the off-season:

“Jay’s awesome, (http://chicagobears.com/news/NewsStory.asp?story_id=6821)” Urlacher said on a conference call for Bears fans. “He throws the ball as well as any quarterback in the NFL. If we can protect him–which I think we will do–I think he’s going to have a great year.”

Naturally, Gutless Drunk has already posted the link about Peppers saying Cutler was a factor in deciding to come to Chicago, and we also know Cutler was a factor in Dawkins deciding to come to Denver (man did McD **** him hard!)... sooooo yeah

Gort
01-19-2011, 01:38 PM
How do you say "not true" and then go on to confirm that it is, in fact, true?

Hilarious!

Are you also aware that 2 pts per game equates to about 7 ranking spots in scoring? Are you also aware that 2008s ppg wouldve been 13 this season (not to mention 2010 saw us face our easiest schedule that I can remember - we played the 2 worst divisions in football, and the third worst twice)

you claimed stats mean everything. i claimed that scoring is all that matters. both teams were about the same with offensive scoring. why is a team that can move up and down the field but turn the ball over in the redzone better than a team that moves the ball inconsistently but scores roughly the same amount of points?

if you want to start factoring all kinds of silliness into your argument by trying to judge which team faced a tougher schedule, which is a very tough argument to make because you have to account for the opponents on a week by week basis, then i'll bail now. i'm not interested in that and don't need to win an internet argument to feel good about myself.

i'm just trying to point out that all of this fantasizing about how much better the 2010 Broncos would have been with Cutler is just that... fantasy. Cutler was not a winner when he was here and the defense was as bad in 2008 as it was in 2010. without fixing that, i don't care who the QB is... the Broncos are going nowhere. i just don't see much dropoff in offense between 2008 and 2010. both were mediocre offenses by the only metric that matters... points scored.

TheReverend
01-19-2011, 01:41 PM
you claimed stats mean everything. i claimed that scoring is all that matters. both teams were about the same with offensive scoring. why is a team that can move up and down the field but turn the ball over in the redzone better than a team that moves the ball inconsistently but scores roughly the same amount of points?

I didn't claim stats mean everything. I claimed by EVERY POSSIBLE MEASURABLE THE 2008 OFFENSE WAS SUPERIOR. Which I showed. Which it was. EVERY measure. Yards. Points. Rushing. Passing. Moving the chains. Winning football games. ALL OF THEM.

if you want to start factoring all kinds of silliness into your argument by trying to judge which team faced a tougher schedule, which is a very tough argument to make because you have to account for the opponents on a week by week basis, then i'll bail now. i'm not interested in that and don't need to win an internet argument to feel good about myself.

Nope. Don't even have to. It was better despite the tougher schedule IN EVERY POSSIBLE FACET.

i'm just trying to point out that all of this fantasizing about how much better the 2010 Broncos would have been with Cutler is just that... fantasy. Cutler was not a winner when he was here and the defense was as bad in 2008 as it was in 2010. without fixing that, i don't care who the QB is... the Broncos are going nowhere. i just don't see much dropoff in offense between 2008 and 2010. both were mediocre offenses by the only metric that matters... points scored.

Correct. The defense was just as bad. And we won 2x as many games. Imagine where the Broncos would be if we had left that offense alone and just used our resources to address the defense. Novel concept, eh?

Gort
01-19-2011, 01:49 PM
LOL

I can't even continue that argument. A 4-12 team is the exact same as an 8-8 team now? McDaniel fans get more ridiculous with each passing day.

not really what i said. what i said is that the same team that probably deserves a 6-10 record based on talent and opponents could easily win a couple more games or lose a couple more games based on lucky bounces or bad breaks. so 4-12 and 8-8 are not tremendously different results. the 2009 Broncos went 8-8 without Cutler. the 2010 Broncos went 4-12. those were basically the same teams.

here are 2 lucky wins in 2009.

CIN, NE

here are 2 bad luck losses in 2010.

49ers. Jets.

subtract the 2 lucky wins and the 2 bad luck losses and the 2009 and 2010 Broncos are both 6-10 with essentially the same rosters. hmmmm.... imagine that.

it's not a stretch to say that the 2008 Broncos got a couple of lucky breaks like the 2009 Broncos and that's how they both ended up 8-8. Shanny was better at coming out on the positive side of those than McD. but i don't really consider the 2007 and 2008 and 2009 and 2010 teams to be all that different. all atrocious on defense. all with a passable though not special offense.

2KBack
01-19-2011, 01:53 PM
As far as I'm concerned Denver was 7-9 in 2008. That SD win wasn't a lucky bounce, it was out right robbery.

Gort
01-19-2011, 01:59 PM
I didn't claim stats mean everything. I claimed by EVERY POSSIBLE MEASURABLE THE 2008 OFFENSE WAS SUPERIOR. Which I showed. Which it was. EVERY measure. Yards. Points. Rushing. Passing. Moving the chains. Winning football games. ALL OF THEM.



Nope. Don't even have to. It was better despite the tougher schedule IN EVERY POSSIBLE FACET.



Correct. The defense was just as bad. And we won 2x as many games. Imagine where the Broncos would be if we had left that offense alone and just used our resources to address the defense. Novel concept, eh?

i don't find offensive stats to be a measure of quality if the team can't score. the 2002 Vikings had the #2 offense and finished 6-10. i don't think anyone in MIN is pining for the return of Daunte Culpepper.

jhns
01-19-2011, 02:01 PM
As far as I'm concerned Denver was 7-9 in 2008. That SD win wasn't a lucky bounce, it was out right robbery.

Bronco "fans" taking away wins in favor of division rivals. Just when you thought you had seen it all.

Inkana7
01-19-2011, 02:03 PM
I watched that game. Are you claiming a 30 yard pass out of 400 yards of offense = "shut down"?

Philly had 13 points going into the 4th quarter. Yes.

EDIT: To which Cutler's offense could not respond with any points. Yes, that D sure was patting Cutler on his back for saving their ass! What a joke of an argument.

orangemonkey
01-19-2011, 02:13 PM
Philly had 13 points going into the 4th quarter. Yes.

EDIT: To which Cutler's offense could not respond with any points. Yes, that D sure was patting Cutler on his back for saving their ass! What a joke of an argument.

Wasn't a great game for the Bears D giving up 6 different scores,TDs/FGs. Of course, they had a couple of great plays. It was a career, almost perfect day for Cutler (142 QB rating) against a top tier defense and playoff team.

TheReverend
01-19-2011, 02:19 PM
i don't find offensive stats to be a measure of quality if the team can't score. the 2002 Vikings had the #2 offense and finished 6-10. i don't think anyone in MIN is pining for the return of Daunte Culpepper.

Once again: The 2008 offense scored MORE than the 2010 offense.

2KBack
01-19-2011, 02:21 PM
Wasn't a great game for the Bears D giving up 6 different scores,TDs/FGs. Of course, they had a couple of great plays. It was a career, almost perfect day for Cutler (142 QB rating) against a top tier defense and playoff team.

or the 21st ranked defense

TheReverend
01-19-2011, 02:23 PM
Philly had 13 points going into the 4th quarter. Yes.

EDIT: To which Cutler's offense could not respond with any points. Yes, that D sure was patting Cutler on his back for saving their ass! What a joke of an argument.

I agree with that.

As for your edit: They'd already scored 31 through 3 quarters and were running the clock out...

bpc
01-19-2011, 02:26 PM
Many Broncos fans have been saying this for years and were unfairly ridiculed for it. It would be nice to say we were right and whatever bit in the end, we're 4-12 and miserable to watch. Who wants to claim being right about that?

BTW **** you mcdaniels. I hope you have wet **** for a year.

orangemonkey
01-19-2011, 02:26 PM
or the 21st ranked defense

Week 12, they were a top 8-10 defense in yards.

Gort
01-19-2011, 02:28 PM
Once again: The 2008 offense scored MORE than the 2010 offense.

26 points over 16 games. yawn.

i know you like Cutler. maybe you like losing games so long as the offense can move the ball up and down the field between the 20's. i don't know. maybe that's your "thing". i actually like teams that win. i'd be happy with a Broncos team that scored 3 points a game so long as the defense held the opponent to 2 points.

Jay Cutler has talent. but getting rid of him didn't make the Broncos a bad team. they were a bad team with him. maybe they are slightly worse now, but the difference between 2008 and 2010 isn't much. they are essentially the same teams in terms of performance. they both had middle of the road offenses in terms of scoring points. they both had atrocious defenses in terms of giving up points.

i don't believe Cutler and the 2010 Broncos roster would be any better than the 2008 team. the 2010 team was a 6-10 +/- 2 wins team (i actually predicted that before the season). the 2008 team was the same. both are awful results for a franchise used to winning. even if Cutler was here, he'd have been playing under McD and we all saw how McD would sabotage opportunities to win games by being stubborn. Cutler is happy in CHI. i'm happy he's gone. it's a win-win for all involved. the Broncos still suck and they still need to fix the defense. same as 2009. same as 2008. same as 2007. same as 2006. etc...

postscript - i'll go on record as saying that the only reason the 2008 team didn't finish 6-10 is that Shanny himself was worth about 2 coaching wins per season. likewise, the reason the 2010 team went 4-12 instead of 6-10 is that McD's stubbornness and poor coaching staff was worth -2 wins per season.

TheReverend
01-19-2011, 02:37 PM
26 points over 16 games. yawn.

i know you like Cutler. maybe you like losing games so long as the offense can move the ball up and down the field between the 20's. i don't know. maybe that's your "thing". i actually like teams that win. i'd be happy with a Broncos team that scored 3 points a game so long as the defense held the opponent to 2 points.

Wait... what? First off, yes, I do like Cutler. Secondly, AGAIN, we scored MORE with that offense. Thirdly, now you're talking wins? We won TWICE AS MANY ****ING GAMES that season and were competing for the div title to the bitter end, as opposed to the SECOND WORST TEAM IN FOOTBALL and mathematically eliminated midseason.

...But you like wins? Hilarious!

Jay Cutler has talent. but getting rid of him didn't make the Broncos a bad team. they were a bad team with him. maybe they are slightly worse now, but the difference between 2008 and 2010 isn't much. they are essentially the same teams in terms of performance. they both had middle of the road offenses in terms of scoring points. they both had atrocious defenses in terms of giving up points.

Isn't much? 4 more wins isn't much? 4 more wins in the other direction is homefield for the playoffs and a first round bye. 4 wins in the NFL is ****ing huge. Are you serious right now?

i don't believe Cutler and the 2010 Broncos roster would be any better than the 2008 team. the 2010 team was a 6-10 +/- 2 wins team (i actually predicted that before the season). the 2008 team was the same. both are awful results for a franchise used to winning. even if Cutler was here, he'd have been playing under McD and we all saw how McD would sabotage opportunities to win games by being stubborn. Cutler is happy in CHI. i'm happy he's gone. it's a win-win for all involved. the Broncos still suck and they still need to fix the defense. same as 2009. same as 2008. same as 2007. same as 2006. etc...

Wow great prediction. You predicted anywhere between 4 and 12 wins. It's like you're a psychic... Ha!

You're also getting ridiculously subjective to the point of being absurd.

postscript - i'll go on record as saying that the only reason the 2008 team didn't finish 6-10 is that Shanny himself was worth about 2 coaching wins per season. likewise, the reason the 2010 team went 4-12 instead of 6-010 is that McD's stubbornness and poor coaching staff was worth -2 wins per season.

Your original argument for reference sake:

seriously? seriously??

the 2008 offense was as much a problem as the current offense.

you're just not credible if you try to argue otherwise.

in 2008, we moved the ball up and down the field but couldn't score from the redzone. both were bad (2008 and 2010), but neither are were the most pressing problem on the team. we ran better in 2008. we finally found a rezone offense late in 2010. otherwise, i call it a push.

Once again... by definition wrong by ANY measure.

Bronco Vixen
01-19-2011, 02:43 PM
For the 726,000th time, the Bears are playing in the NFC championship game because of a ridiculously unprecedented lucky season of breaks. Certainly not because of Cutler and not necessarily because of a dominant defense - who gave up a lot of points this year against an insanely weak schedule in which they played only six games against teams with a winning record. They got 4 of those 6 at home and faced 5 backups QBs this year alone including 2 THIRD stringers! Pile on top all of that the fact that no less than four of their victories were bogus with legitimate TDs not being counted & ridiculous PI calls keeping drives alive.

Yay for mcpissy pants - he won his 1st NFL playoff game....AGAINST THE 7-9 SEAHAWKS AT HOME.

The worst part is that I fully expect this ridiculously easy road to the SB to continue - in fact that's why I bet the Jets & Packers last week - whatever it takes to help carry this HIGHLY suspect team forward.

Gort
01-19-2011, 02:46 PM
blah blah blah

do you understand mathematical concepts such as error and uncertainty?

that's what this means. 6 +/- 2 means that the median is 6 with an error margin of +2 or -2. same thing they do with political polling. i wrote 6-10 as the final record, +/- 2 wins. not between 6-10 wins then with an additional +/- 2 win error. that would be silly. i thought that was obvious.

so i predicted that the team would be 6-10 with an error of a couple of games... so 4-12 and 8-8 are the extremes. but both fall within the margin of error.

you don't have a gotcha. i didn't predict 12 wins. 4-12 looks much worse on paper than 8-8. but the same team with the same coaches and basically the same roster can have those disparate results. just look at the 2009 and 2010 teams. both coached by McD. both QB'ed by Orton. both without an effective running game. both with awful defenses.

so the 2009 and 2010 Broncos teams were basically the same. both very bad. the ending records don't really mean much. 8-8 looks better, but it doesn't show that one team was twice as good as the other.

if you don't understand that point, then i'm out. go find somebody else to argue with. it's not much fun to try and get somebody to understand a point, even if they don't agree with it, if they are purposely being obtuse.

Gort
01-19-2011, 02:56 PM
Once again... by definition wrong by ANY measure.

this argument has gone 'round and 'round on this site for years.

i guess you think gaining yards just for the sake of gaining yards is important.

i don't. i want to see a team score points. i don't play fantasy football. i don't really care about stats for their own sake.

in an ideal world, i'd love my team to do both. rack up yardage and points by the bushel. but teams win superbowls all the time with sh*tty offenses. see the 2000 Ravens. and great offenses fail to qualify for the superbowl all the time. see the 1998 Vikings.

Cutler was able to move the ball under Shanny's offense. but he had trouble scoring. is that something you were happy about? why is that better than a team that racks up fewer yards yet scores about the same amount? the 2008 and 2010 offenses were not widely different. they just weren't. you asserting otherwise doesn't make it so. the dropoff from Shanny/Cutler to McD/Orton was not that much. this has been argued for 2 years here. i'm not going to rehash those threads.

Jetmeck
01-19-2011, 03:06 PM
Cutler > Orton plus any unknown quantities we have received for compensation
which may or may not work out. Right now that trade looks ludicrous as it did when it was done. Arguing the opposite is illogical and just plain hating on Cutler which is unwarranted. Any one of you would have spoke back to that idiot McDaniels had he treated you that way.

That petilent former coach we had should be stoned................

tsiguy96
01-19-2011, 03:12 PM
Cutler > Orton plus any unknown quantities we have received for compensation
which may or may not work out. Right now that trade looks ludicrous as it did when it was done. Arguing the opposite is illogical and just plain hating on Cutler which is unwarranted. Any one of you would have spoke back to that idiot McDaniels had he treated you that way.

That petilent former coach we had should be stoned................

thats simply not true, and like many of us have said, every single objective stat you can find proves that the bears offense this year was below average, average at best. thats what cutler led this year. however, the bears defense is a top 5 defense in almost every stat you can find. that is an objective measure of success that you yourself can look up.

Jetmeck
01-19-2011, 03:14 PM
thats simply not true, and like many of us have said, every single objective stat you can find proves that the bears offense this year was below average, average at best. thats what cutler led this year. however, the bears defense is a top 5 defense in almost every stat you can find. that is an objective measure of success that you yourself can look up.

Get over it, he has crap receivers and a whiss cheese line. Get over your hatred..............

Homer Simpson
01-19-2011, 03:14 PM
Pissing in the wind may be more successful, frown cannon aint coming back.

Jetmeck
01-19-2011, 03:15 PM
Pissing in the wind may be more successful, frown cannon aint coming back.

Nope , his ass is prob on the way to the Super Bowl......while we are ?

TheReverend
01-19-2011, 03:15 PM
this argument has gone 'round and 'round on this site for years.

i guess you think gaining yards just for the sake of gaining yards is important.

i don't. i want to see a team score points. i don't play fantasy football. i don't really care about stats for their own sake.

in an ideal world, i'd love my team to do both. rack up yardage and points by the bushel. but teams win superbowls all the time with sh*tty offenses. see the 2000 Ravens. and great offenses fail to qualify for the superbowl all the time. see the 1998 Vikings.

Cutler was able to move the ball under Shanny's offense. but he had trouble scoring. is that something you were happy about? why is that better than a team that racks up fewer yards yet scores about the same amount? the 2008 and 2010 offenses were not widely different. they just weren't. you asserting otherwise doesn't make it so. the dropoff from Shanny/Cutler to McD/Orton was not that much. this has been argued for 2 years here. i'm not going to rehash those threads.

Do you realize this is the FIFTH time I have to explain to you that team scored more too?

Jesus Christ, what is wrong with you?

strafen
01-19-2011, 03:18 PM
thats simply not true, and like many of us have said, every single objective stat you can find proves that the bears offense this year was below average, average at best. thats what cutler led this year. however, the bears defense is a top 5 defense in almost every stat you can find. that is an objective measure of success that you yourself can look up.

You're wrong...
You've got no freakin' clue as to what impacted the w/l column this year with the Bears.
The defense is good, the offense no so good, but Cutler has found in Martz a guy whio is willing to work with him, and the results speak for themselves.

You've got to actually had watched enough bears games this season for you to be able to know what you're talking about.
Looking at the ESPN stats doesn't tell the whole story...

lostknight
01-19-2011, 03:19 PM
The thing about Cutler, that I think everyone can agree on is that he has mad potential. Cutler, when you see him with a helmet on, looks great. Looks like a football player. Gets fired up, goes out and makes plays. It's when you take the helmet off, and force him to do all the other things that he falls flat on his face.

It's ironic. If you mixed Jay Cutler and Tim Tebow, put them in a blender, and spit out two NFL QBs, they would probably be the greatest QB's of all time. Tebow doesn't have the technique, and Jay just doesn't give a ****.

Give him credit for one thing though - McDaniels opened the door and he charged right through it. How many of us would take that door, and just say no to a mcDaniels led Broncos now in retrospect?

lostknight
01-19-2011, 03:25 PM
Interesting sidenote. Of the top 5 offensive teams in the NFL this year, none are still alive in the playoffs. Of the top 5 defensive teams, only 3 are alive in the playoffs.

Cito Pelon
01-19-2011, 03:27 PM
Yessirree, they sure screwed up the draft picks.

CEH
01-19-2011, 03:34 PM
Yessirree, they sure screwed up the draft picks.

I'm trying to find the quote from Elway last year (I saw him on TV ) however he said what Denver does with the picks will determine whether it was a good trade. He was disappointed that Jay and Josh could not come together.

The NFL is a bottomline league. And bottomline is we are 4-12 and haven't done much with the picks

Time to move on and looking forward to a defense and running game to support Tebow

Homer Simpson
01-19-2011, 03:36 PM
Nope , his ass is prob on the way to the Super Bowl......while we are ?

We're not. And I am not complaining about a 2 year old trade because the kid isn't Peyton Manning and I'm looking forward to a new era of being a Broncos fan. It's healthier to look forward rather than stare into the past with bitter and anger.

TheReverend
01-19-2011, 03:36 PM
The thing about Cutler, that I think everyone can agree on is that he has mad potential. Cutler, when you see him with a helmet on, looks great. Looks like a football player. Gets fired up, goes out and makes plays. It's when you take the helmet off, and force him to do all the other things that he falls flat on his face.

It's ironic. If you mixed Jay Cutler and Tim Tebow, put them in a blender, and spit out two NFL QBs, they would probably be the greatest QB's of all time. Tebow doesn't have the technique, and Jay just doesn't give a ****.

Give him credit for one thing though - McDaniels opened the door and he charged right through it. How many of us would take that door, and just say no to a mcDaniels led Broncos now in retrospect?

I'll disagree here, but it might be semantics.

Cutler certainly gives a ****. When he was a Bronco he was spending the little free time he does have in the offseason working with his receivers in Atlanta before coming back to Denver to start working with the coaches again months before anyone else. Don't forget, he was in Dove Valley the WEEK McDaniels was hired to get cracking on his offense. He also puts the effort into his strength and conditioning as evidenced by his jaw dropping 23 reps at the combine (Warren Sapp did 17, for comparisons sake).

I'll agree that he doesn't outwork my beloved Timmy, but to say he doesnt give a **** is a GROSS exaggeration and completely disrespectful of the hard work that he does put in year in and year out.

Plummer... now he didn't give a ****.

tsiguy96
01-19-2011, 03:39 PM
Interesting sidenote. Of the top 5 offensive teams in the NFL this year, none are still alive in the playoffs. Of the top 5 defensive teams, only 3 are alive in the playoffs.

absolutely, and this is why the broncos would be smart to mirror the bears. a great defense that can stop teams, a QB that can win the game if you need him to (but do not want to rely on him to) and a run game.

txtebow
01-19-2011, 04:48 PM
But Lex, BF7, Nybronco colonel beef etc were not TRUE bronco fans b/c they called this immediately after it was known that Denver was shopping JAYC.......repent you sheep.

bowtown
01-19-2011, 05:04 PM
http://cdn.ksk.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/cutler-sack8.jpg

Bob's your Information Minister
01-19-2011, 05:05 PM
It's been a fun ride.

SoCalBronco
01-19-2011, 05:19 PM
One of the rare times Burger Bill is on the mark.

Inkana7
01-19-2011, 05:25 PM
One of the rare times Burger Bill is on the mark.

That should tell you something about his conclusion, then.

Agamemnon
01-19-2011, 05:52 PM
Right now?

Because I'm pretty sure if you asked all the coaches who they would take to win a game tomorrow 32 of 32 would say:

Cutler >>>>>> Tebow

Yes right now. If Tebow was on the Bears they'd likely win the Super Bowl. As it is, they have Cutler and are going to get spanked by the Packers.

Tebow's passing + running + intangibles >>>>> Cutler's passing + running + and punkass attitude. And in a few years this debate will be laughable...

El Minion
01-19-2011, 05:55 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3457/3383520918_1eb85eabdf_b.jpg

yerner
01-19-2011, 05:57 PM
Yes right now. If Tebow was on the Bears they'd likely win the Super Bowl. As it is, they have Cutler and are going to get spanked by the Packers.

Tebow's passing + running + intangibles >>>>> Cutler's passing + running + and punkass attitude. And in a few years this debate will be laughable...

wow.

Merlin
01-19-2011, 05:57 PM
One of the rare times Burger Bill is on the mark.
A broken clock is right twice a day. Or there is always, "even a blind squirrel will find a nut every once in a while".

vancejohnson82
01-19-2011, 05:59 PM
I'll disagree here, but it might be semantics.

Cutler certainly gives a ****. When he was a Bronco he was spending the little free time he does have in the offseason working with his receivers in Atlanta before coming back to Denver to start working with the coaches again months before anyone else. Don't forget, he was in Dove Valley the WEEK McDaniels was hired to get cracking on his offense. He also puts the effort into his strength and conditioning as evidenced by his jaw dropping 23 reps at the combine (Warren Sapp did 17, for comparisons sake).

I'll agree that he doesn't outwork my beloved Timmy, but to say he doesnt give a **** is a GROSS exaggeration and completely disrespectful of the hard work that he does put in year in and year out.

Plummer... now he didn't give a ****.

I'll take Cutler any day of the week if everything is going well. I wouldnt want him to be anywhere near my locker room during a two game losing streak with a big game coming up, though

just my opinion though

Merlin
01-19-2011, 05:59 PM
Yes right now. If Tebow was on the Bears they'd likely win the Super Bowl.
Even Elway has stated that at the moment Tebow is not a good NFL QB, but he could become one...we don't know yet. Lets leave it at that.

Agamemnon
01-19-2011, 06:08 PM
Even Elway has stated that at the moment Tebow is not a good NFL QB, but he could become one...we don't know yet. Lets leave it at that.

In his three starts Tebow amassed 850 yards of total offense, averaging 283.33 yards per game. He also accounted for seven total touchdowns. He isn't a great passer right now, but his overall production still blows away Cutler. When you factor in that he has the moxy to lead his team on a 17 point comeback, I have no problem saying that he is a better player than Cutler right now.

TonyR
01-19-2011, 06:08 PM
...they played only six games against teams with a winning record. They got 4 of those 6 at home and faced 5 backups QBs this year alone including 2 THIRD stringers! Pile on top all of that the fact that no less than four of their victories were bogus with legitimate TDs not being counted & ridiculous PI calls keeping drives alive.

If those stats are correct they are pretty amazing, particularly the 5 backup QBs. And that garbage victory against Detroit was ridiculous.

bowtown
01-19-2011, 06:09 PM
Yes right now. If Tebow was on the Bears they'd likely win the Super Bowl. As it is, they have Cutler and are going to get spanked by the Packers.

Tebow's passing + running + intangibles >>>>> Cutler's passing + running + and punkass attitude. And in a few years this debate will be laughable...

Wow. I hate Cutler with the heat of a thousand suns, but that **** is just plain

http://jamesondetweiler.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/forum_ff09dd60_Gary_Busey_Red_Carpet_Crazy_Celebri ty.jpg

Agamemnon
01-19-2011, 06:13 PM
Wow. I hate Cutler with the heat of a thousand suns, but that **** is just plain

http://jamesondetweiler.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/forum_ff09dd60_Gary_Busey_Red_Carpet_Crazy_Celebri ty.jpg

Why? Cutler is nothing more than a mediocre QB on a team with great defense and special teams. He's better at throwing the ball right now, but Tebow's running ability and intangibles balance it out. After watching Tebow keep our garbage team competitive at the end of the year, the thought that he couldn't have done better in Cutler's situation is laughable to me.

txtebow
01-19-2011, 06:31 PM
http://cdn.ksk.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/cutler-sack8.jpg

You are pathetic. he is playing in the NFCCG..WE HAVE THE SECOND OVERALL PICK IN THIS YEAR's DRAFT, DOLT.

txtebow
01-19-2011, 06:34 PM
Many Broncos fans have been saying this for years and were unfairly ridiculed for it. It would be nice to say we were right and whatever bit in the end, we're 4-12 and miserable to watch. Who wants to claim being right about that?

BTW **** you mcdaniels. I hope you have wet **** for a year.

It's the same as knowing and telling one's daughter that the guy she is dating is a complete loser. You hope that that heed your warning, but if they don't at least you had the foresight and clear conscience in knowing that you did all you could.People like you tried to help guys like, baja, Gaylore, Tsiguy, etc. but to no avail. they were left broken hearted, yet strangely defiant.

txtebow
01-19-2011, 06:35 PM
If those stats are correct they are pretty amazing, particularly the 5 backup QBs. And that garbage victory against Detroit was ridiculous.

and in a strange 1986 NE Patriots sort of way, the Bears will manage to get to the SB. watch and see.

bowtown
01-19-2011, 06:38 PM
You are pathetic. he is playing in the NFCCG..WE HAVE THE SECOND OVERALL PICK IN THIS YEAR's DRAFT, DOLT.

http://cdn.ksk.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/cutler-sack6.jpg

txtebow
01-19-2011, 06:43 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3457/3383520918_1eb85eabdf_b.jpg

The look on his face alone should have been enough to get him poop canned......ALL HAIL TEBOW!

KipCorrington25
01-19-2011, 06:44 PM
People are complaining but hey McDaniels was terrible at historical levels, people will be writing articles about that idiot for years. Decades from now he'll be on top of "Worst NFL Head Coaches of All Time" lists so get used to hearing about it, this kind of colossal train wreck isn't going to be easily swept under the rug or forgotten.

And truth be told the arrogant, beady eyed little prick needs to be called out loud and clear for the disaster he left us with.

txtebow
01-19-2011, 06:44 PM
http://cdn.ksk.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/cutler-sack6.jpg

touche'

TheReverend
01-19-2011, 07:06 PM
If those stats are correct they are pretty amazing, particularly the 5 backup QBs. And that garbage victory against Detroit was ridiculous.

It's legit. What that doesn't tell you it that it wasn't really a drop in quality.

The five backup QBs were Clausen, Thigpen, Webb, Hill, Fitzpatrick... if you can really consider half of those guys backups considering the "starters" were either benched/traded.

Green Bay also played 5 backup QBs.

OrangeCrush2724
01-19-2011, 07:20 PM
LOL Funny how you pretend to know anything about football. The game was over and Chicago took their feet off the gas. The defense played great most of the game and went conservative in the second half. You really don't understand this?

Kinda like the ravens...

Archer81
01-19-2011, 07:35 PM
Eh. **** happens. And the franchise has been on a long decline for awhile. If Shanahan was riding a gimpy horse, McDaniels shot it in the head and ended the misery.

On to the next thing.

:Broncos:

colonelbeef
01-19-2011, 08:04 PM
Eh. **** happens. And the franchise has been on a long decline for awhile. If Shanahan was riding a gimpy horse, McDaniels shot it in the head and ended the misery.

On to the next thing.

:Broncos:

Gimpy horse my behind. Raw, unbridled horse is more accurate.

Remember, you thought losing Cutler was a good thing. Your judgment on this matter has been questionable from the outset.

Archer81
01-19-2011, 08:16 PM
Gimpy horse my behind. Raw, unbridled horse is more accurate.

Remember, you thought losing Cutler was a good thing. Your judgment on this matter has been questionable from the outset.


Raw and unbridled and going nowhere. 1998 was the summit of the team's success. It has been downhill since then, with 2005 being the only brightspot.

You can twist into any gordian knot you like about it, but I simply do not care about Jay Cutler. I care about the development of Tim Tebow and seeing the team build a defense that is capable of going into Indi, New England, Pittsburgh or New York and pulling out wins.

:Broncos:

vancejohnson82
01-19-2011, 08:21 PM
Gimpy horse my behind. Raw, unbridled horse is more accurate.

Remember, you thought losing Cutler was a good thing. Your judgment on this matter has been questionable from the outset.

i still agree with getting rid of Cutler

i thnk he's a middle of the road QB....again, just an opinion

Odysseus
01-20-2011, 06:10 AM
This is a bit maddening to me because, while the Broncos probably ****ed up a lot of things in regards to the Cutler trade, I sincerely doubt we'd be in the AFC championship on Sunday if Jay Cutler was still our QB. This is not an apples to apples argument, but stupid idiots like the Williamson boys mentioned above like to make it simple. Plus, its not like Cutler threw for 4,500 yards and 35 TDs. He didnt **** up an offense whos team is lead by their defense. Jay's done a good job, but as said, its essentially the same team that Grossman led to the Super Bowl only 3 years before. The Broncos are riddled with problems, problems the bears dont have. Was it a good trade for the Broncos? No, of course not, we were 4-12. But it's not like we traded them Peyton Manning either.

If Jay had stayed in Denver his career would have died under McD so it helped both of them that he left. Chicago is a good fit for him. Why? He's in the playoffs.

The Broncos are a horrible team but the opportunity is taking full stock and rebuilding this team for long term dominance.

Odysseus
01-20-2011, 06:19 AM
I'll disagree here, but it might be semantics.

Cutler certainly gives a ****. When he was a Bronco he was spending the little free time he does have in the offseason working with his receivers in Atlanta before coming back to Denver to start working with the coaches again months before anyone else. Don't forget, he was in Dove Valley the WEEK McDaniels was hired to get cracking on his offense. He also puts the effort into his strength and conditioning as evidenced by his jaw dropping 23 reps at the combine (Warren Sapp did 17, for comparisons sake).

I'll agree that he doesn't outwork my beloved Timmy, but to say he doesnt give a **** is a GROSS exaggeration and completely disrespectful of the hard work that he does put in year in and year out.

Plummer... now he didn't give a ****.

The NFL is a crack addiction and not a normal job. You have to be a little bent to survive or thrive in this league. I hope Tebow does everything that fans think he can do. I like the guy. I like the conversation.

I never like Brister, Griese, or any of the incarnations until Plummer hit ground. I liked Plummer. I liked Cutler.

If Tebow is everything that McD was not than this could be worthwhile. Elway played through some pretty miserable years.

colonelbeef
01-20-2011, 03:25 PM
Raw and unbridled and going nowhere. 1998 was the summit of the team's success. It has been downhill since then, with 2005 being the only brightspot.

You can twist into any gordian knot you like about it, but I simply do not care about Jay Cutler. I care about the development of Tim Tebow and seeing the team build a defense that is capable of going into Indi, New England, Pittsburgh or New York and pulling out wins.

:Broncos:

How do you know where a 25 year old QB and his offense full of talented rookies and 2nd year players was going?

So far he has reached a championship game, you think that is 'going nowhere'?

Archer81
01-20-2011, 04:01 PM
How do you know where a 25 year old QB and his offense full of talented rookies and 2nd year players was going?

So far he has reached a championship game, you think that is 'going nowhere'?


This response defies logic. You want me to argue a faulty notion that Cutler having a solid year and the Bears lucking out into the NFCC game is somehow a reflection of where the Broncos would be if Cutler were not traded? You did not make a reasonable assertion there.

Throwing in the continued flaws of Jay Cutler's game (poor mechanics and decision making), Marshall's being one ****up away from a year long suspension, Tony Scheffler's angry vagina, rebuilding the interior of the o-line (which would have had to happen with Shanny, either this past year or next), keeping Slowick, and signing more scrubs (because nate webster needs friends) to flesh out depth we would have been looking at yet another .500 season and more frustration.

But hey, we would still have the Emo QB, right?

:Broncos:

strafen
01-20-2011, 04:05 PM
i still agree with getting rid of Cutler

i thnk he's a middle of the road QB....again, just an opinion
If Jay Cutler is a middle of the road QB as you ridiculously put it, what does it make Kyle Orton?

fontaine
01-20-2011, 04:45 PM
I don't differentiate between McD and Cutler.

Both are equally and fully deserving of my contempt.

vancejohnson82
01-20-2011, 05:00 PM
If Jay Cutler is a middle of the road QB as you ridiculously put it, what does it make Kyle Orton?

In my opinion this is how I see QBs in the league right now in sections...in no particular order in the sections

Top 5

Manning
Brees
Brady
Rivers
Rodgers

On the Outside of that Looking in

Vick
Ryan
Schaub
Rothlesberger

The Huge Middle Right After

Eli
Cutler
Flacco
Sanchez
Palmer
Bradford
McNabb


Yea...he's a middle of the road QB

I have no clue what Orton has to do with conversation though

WolfpackGuy
01-20-2011, 05:48 PM
If Jay Cutler is a middle of the road QB as you ridiculously put it, what does it make Kyle Orton?

In the Broncos rearview mirror...

OABB
01-20-2011, 05:56 PM
How awesome is this place gonna be if cutler has a cutleresque peformance and the bears get smoked because of him.

Way funnier than him winning IMO.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-20-2011, 06:58 PM
How awesome is this place gonna be if cutler has a cutleresque peformance and the bears get smoked because of him.

Way funnier than him winning IMO.

Don't you ****ing jinx it.

Bronco Vixen
01-20-2011, 07:26 PM
It's legit. What that doesn't tell you it that it wasn't really a drop in quality.

The five backup QBs were Clausen, Thigpen, Webb, Hill, Fitzpatrick... if you can really consider half of those guys backups considering the "starters" were either benched/traded.

Green Bay also played 5 backup QBs.

I can’t believe I’m about to post this "splitting hairs" of a reply but I can’t help myself so I apologize in advance.

I actually wasn’t even counting that FAS face – Clausen.
Webb, (injury), Thigpen (injury), Hill (injury), Stanton (benched – but 3rd string), Fitzpatrick (traded).

Still it's hard for me to characterize that all-star lineup as anything but a drop in quality.

GB only played 4 backups – (hill & Stanton – same as Chicago) & Kitna & Troy Smith. But again, splitting hairs.

Packers played 7 teams w/ a winning record – 8 if you include Atlanta for the second time last week and 6 of those 8 games were on the road.
This is compared to Chicago who again only played 2 of their tough 6 on the road.

GB certainly didn’t have a terribly difficult schedule either – though one could argue they had to play all year with devastating injuries (including their starting running back) while the bears – again with their infuriating luck have had hardly any.

OK, I'm going to quit now. I'm starting to freak myself out with my obsessiveness on this topic.

CEH
01-21-2011, 07:21 AM
Elway on 87.7

Jay Cutler would probably be a Bronco today if I were GM
We gave up on him too early
Jay is a talent you don't see come around too often


How about those remarks from our current VP

vancejohnson82
01-21-2011, 07:27 AM
Elway on 87.7

Jay Cutler would probably be a Bronco today if I were GM
We gave up on him too early
Jay is a talent you don't see come around too often


How about those remarks from our current VP

It's classy

orangemonkey
01-21-2011, 07:38 AM
Elway on 87.7

Jay Cutler would probably be a Bronco today if I were GM
We gave up on him too early
Jay is a talent you don't see come around too often


How about those remarks from our current VP

So do you think this is a knock at Bowlen or McDaniels? I'd bet mini me.

But guarantee is more like it. Biggest ****up in McDaniels' career so far...

jhns
01-21-2011, 07:41 AM
Elway on 87.7

Jay Cutler would probably be a Bronco today if I were GM
We gave up on him too early
Jay is a talent you don't see come around too often


How about those remarks from our current VP

Yup. He has many interviews, starting from the day Cutler was traded, that talk up Cutler. The guy running the team doesn't agree with a lot on this board. I'm sure it is just that he doesn't know much about playing QB in the NFL.

Dedhed
01-21-2011, 07:47 AM
If Jay had stayed in Denver his career would have died under McD so it helped both of them that he left. Chicago is a good fit for him. Why? He's in the playoffs.

Chicago is a good fit for any QB. Why?

The defense and special teams play can carry just about any offense into the playoffs.

Let's not forget this is pretty much the same defense that brought Rex Grossman to the Super Bowl.

bronco militia
01-21-2011, 07:49 AM
Elway on 87.7

Jay Cutler would probably be a Bronco today if I were GM
We gave up on him too early
Jay is a talent you don't see come around too often


How about those remarks from our current VP


well yeah...that's why John was hired

WolfpackGuy
01-21-2011, 07:49 AM
But, but, but, look at what they got in return!

The MVPlaya
01-21-2011, 07:50 AM
So do you think this is a knock at Bowlen or McDaniels? I'd bet mini me.

But guarantee is more like it. Biggest ****up in McDaniels' career so far...

How is this even on McDaniels? Bowlen is THE ONE who forced the trade to happen and Cutler is the ONE who cried his way out?