PDA

View Full Version : Bill Polian says you never pass up on a franchise DE in the Draft


bronco0608
01-18-2011, 07:39 PM
Fundamental football logic tells you a behemoth tackle controlling the middle of the line is important to a defense.

Coaches, personnel folks and players around the league, however, tell you he is not as important as a pass-rushing defensive end.

"Two positions you don't pass in the draft when you have a chance to get one: A quarterback who can win in the league and a pass-rusher who can win in the league," Indianapolis Colts president Bill Polian said.

http://www.nfl.com/kickoff/story/09000d5d80a50113/article/the-most-important-position-on-defense

According to the article, benefits to having great DEs:

» A middle linebacker tends to have more room to operate if he's working behind an exceptional defensive end drawing blocking to the outside.

» A cornerback and a safety can suddenly become more effective in coverage if he has the help of a defensive end applying strong pressure on the passer.

So, if you think about it, Daquan Bowers -- who was the number one player in high school, and is arguably the number one player in the draft -- is available, and we are playing a 4-3, how in the world can we pass on him?

He has the size of a Reggie White and the production of a Elvis Dummervil. He had more sacks in his junior year than Robert Ayers had in his entire career at Tennessee.

Dumervil and Bowers? That's crucial.

tsiguy96
01-18-2011, 07:41 PM
it would be nice, but at same time a dominant defensive tackle opens up potential for one on ones with doom and ayers..

schaaf
01-18-2011, 07:41 PM
For the Last week I have felt that Bowers is the safer pick

bronco0608
01-18-2011, 07:49 PM
I think taking Patrick Peterson would be a waste. Phenomenal player, no doubt, but a corner can only impact a game so much. Champ has proven that over his time here.

I would be upset if we took Peterson over Bowers and Fairley - granted both players test out to be in consideration of the number one overall pick.

I would be shocked if Carolina passed on Bowers, though.

Requiem
01-18-2011, 07:49 PM
Elway, Fox and Bowlen (Xanders not included, fetching pizza) will make their selection after a session of puff puff pass.

Tim
01-18-2011, 07:49 PM
I think he will be like gains adams (rip) was. Great in college and average in the nfl.

Rohirrim
01-18-2011, 07:50 PM
I'm still not convinced we're switching out of the 3/4.

peacepipe
01-18-2011, 07:50 PM
http://www.nfl.com/kickoff/story/09000d5d80a50113/article/the-most-important-position-on-defense

According to the article, benefits to having great DEs:

» A middle linebacker tends to have more room to operate if he's working behind an exceptional defensive end drawing blocking to the outside.

» A cornerback and a safety can suddenly become more effective in coverage if he has the help of a defensive end applying strong pressure on the passer.

So, if you think about it, Daquan Bowers -- who was the number one player in high school, and is arguably the number one player in the draft -- is available, and we are playing a 4-3, how in the world can we pass on him?

He has the size of a Reggie White and the production of a Elvis Dummervil. He had more sacks in his junior year than Robert Ayers had in his entire career at Tennessee.

Dumervil and Bowers? That's crucial.

Whatever, he's just getting an early start on the draft. trying to influence the picks ahead of him.

bronco0608
01-18-2011, 07:53 PM
Please God, defensive line, defensive line, defensive line.


A good defensive line can stop the running game and pressure the quarterback into making mistakes at any time. You never hear about CBs taking a game over, but you always hear about defensive lines taking over.

We got one stud in Dumervil, please God, add a Bowers or a Fairely to a mix.

DEFENSIVE LINE, DEFENSIVE LINE!!!!!!

bronco0608
01-18-2011, 07:54 PM
Whatever, he's just getting an early start on the draft. trying to influence the picks ahead of him.

You are right. The article is from 2008. That Bill Polian, he can see into the future.

Broncosfreak_56
01-18-2011, 07:54 PM
Bowers or Fairley please. Since we pick #2 we need whoever is left.

Rohirrim
01-18-2011, 07:56 PM
I agree with the basic premise: If you have a CB and DE of equal skill available, take the lineman. Always take the lineman. Winning football begins with the lines. Hasn't changed since the game was invented.

bronco0608
01-18-2011, 07:58 PM
I think he will be like gains adams (rip) was. Great in college and average in the nfl.

Bowers: 6'4" 280 pounds

Adams: 6'5" 250 pounds

I don't see the correlation besides that they both played at Clemson.

Even before the draft, Adams was a considered a situational pass rusher:

Negatives:

Adams is a little undersized for his position at an NFL level. He also occasionally seems to be reluctant to play against the run, which is a big no-no in the pros. Those two factors combined seem to suggest that he's likely to be a situational pass-rusher when he hits the NFL.

They don't resemble each other in any kind of way. Not a good comparison.

KevinJames
01-18-2011, 08:01 PM
Too bad Bowers isn't a franchise DE.

oh and Bill Polian hows Jerry Hughes working out for you.

Dedhed
01-18-2011, 08:18 PM
Check me if I'm wrong sandy, but if we go back to a 4-3, don't we already have a franchise DE?

bronco0608
01-18-2011, 08:22 PM
Check me if I'm wrong sandy, but if we go back to a 4-3, don't we already have a franchise DE?

Aren't there two DEs on a team or am I mistaken?

bronco0608
01-18-2011, 08:24 PM
Too bad Bowers isn't a franchise DE.



And you know this how?

Then why is he ranked #2 on Kiper's board? For the hell of it?

bronco0608
01-18-2011, 08:26 PM
oh and Bill Polian hows Jerry Hughes working out for you.

A rookie is a bust after one year and after playing behind two pro bowl defensive ends?

Say it ain't so, shirley.

What kind of numbers was he suppose to put up? And whose position was he suppose to take as a rookie, Mathis or Freeney?

UberBroncoMan
01-18-2011, 08:29 PM
Aren't there two DEs on a team or am I mistaken?

Guess we can move Ayers to MLB or SAM.

bronco0608
01-18-2011, 08:30 PM
it would be nice, but at same time a dominant defensive tackle opens up potential for one on ones with doom and ayers..

Just not sold on Ayers.

I don't get personel guys sometimes. Ayers had 4 sacks his junior season, then 3 sacks his senior season, but he somehow was suppose to increase that number in the pros when he couldn't even sack the QB against inferior talent in college?

Where is the logic behind that?

Good run stuffer, but nothing more, nothing less.

bronco0608
01-18-2011, 08:32 PM
Guess we can move Ayers to MLB or SAM.

He is physical player, no doubt. He looks awesome when they move him inside against guards. He pushes those guys back.

Physical guy. Beef him up like Keith Traylor.

HAT
01-18-2011, 08:33 PM
I would be shocked if Carolina passed on Bowers, though.

Dear Taco....Please add some smilies this off season. There's currently not enough to convey how bad I want to destroy this joke of a post.

Thanks in advance! ^5

gyldenlove
01-18-2011, 08:35 PM
http://www.nfl.com/kickoff/story/09000d5d80a50113/article/the-most-important-position-on-defense

According to the article, benefits to having great DEs:

» A middle linebacker tends to have more room to operate if he's working behind an exceptional defensive end drawing blocking to the outside.

» A cornerback and a safety can suddenly become more effective in coverage if he has the help of a defensive end applying strong pressure on the passer.

So, if you think about it, Daquan Bowers -- who was the number one player in high school, and is arguably the number one player in the draft -- is available, and we are playing a 4-3, how in the world can we pass on him?

He has the size of a Reggie White and the production of a Elvis Dummervil. He had more sacks in his junior year than Robert Ayers had in his entire career at Tennessee.

Dumervil and Bowers? That's crucial.

Is this the same Bill Polian who have repeadetly said he regrets drafting Jerry Hughes (a pass rusher) instead of the offensive tackle he needed? Talk about mixed messages.

Dedhed
01-18-2011, 08:39 PM
Aren't there two DEs on a team or am I mistaken?

Name a team with two franchise DEs.

Dedhed
01-18-2011, 08:41 PM
And you know this how?

Then why is he ranked #2 on Kiper's board? For the hell of it?

For starters, because Kiper is a complete tool.

OABB
01-18-2011, 08:46 PM
Name a team with two franchise DEs.

Colts.

rugbythug
01-18-2011, 08:50 PM
Steelers, Giants,

Dedhed
01-18-2011, 08:50 PM
Bowers or Fairley please.
Dumb and Dumber

Dedhed
01-18-2011, 08:58 PM
Colts.

I was hoping he would say that, so I could point out just how amazing their defense is.

/sarcasm

Hamrob
01-18-2011, 09:03 PM
Coming out of College, Ayers was projected as a 4-3 DE. You might recall he tore up the Senior Bowl.

He's not a LB...although McD tried to make him one. Going back to a 4-3 could unlease a stud opposite of Doom in the 4-3.

I think I would draft Fairley for the interior line if he's there.

And, although I'm not a Peterson fan...I do think a great cb can dictate the outcome of a game. Ever heard of Darrell Revis?

Hamrob
01-18-2011, 09:05 PM
I'm good with any of the following:

Trade back and get more picks
Fairley
Bowers
Peterson

OrangeSe7en
01-18-2011, 09:09 PM
Guess we can move Ayers to MLB or SAM.

He played MLB in high school

HAT
01-18-2011, 09:18 PM
He played MLB in high school

417 post rule...

bronco0608
01-18-2011, 09:20 PM
Dear Taco....Please add some smilies this off season. There's currently not enough to convey how bad I want to destroy this joke of a post.

Thanks in advance! ^5

Ha, you act as if Bowers is rated as a 2nd round pick, not the 2nd rated guy in the draft.

Your post makes no sense.

BroncoSojia
01-18-2011, 09:22 PM
Ha, you act as if Bowers is rated as a 2nd round pick, not the 2nd rated guy in the draft.

Your post makes no sense.

Yeah a lot mocks I've seen has him going to Carolina at #1.

bronco0608
01-18-2011, 09:25 PM
Dumb and Dumber

I forgot, you want AJ Green with the 2nd pick. My bad. It could still happen.

loborugger
01-18-2011, 09:27 PM
Polian would say this. It fits the strategy of his team. Play high power offense, get a lead, and then rusher the passer. I am not saying that a franchise DE isnt a good thing, but there are different philosophies on how to play 'D'. I think for our team, we need a huge body on line that plays well. For what its worth - I hope we take the best available front 7 player with our first pick, irregardless of whether he is a DE, DT, NT, MLB, ILB, OLB.

Bigdawg26
01-18-2011, 09:29 PM
It's still to early for me to decide out of Farley, Bowers, and Dareus. I just want a dominant D-linemen!

OABB
01-18-2011, 09:29 PM
Polian would say this. It fits the strategy of his team. Play high power offense, get a lead, and then rusher the passer. I am not saying that a franchise DE isnt a good thing, but there are different philosophies on how to play 'D'. I think for our team, we need a huge body on line that plays well. For what its worth - I hope we take the best available front 7 player with our first pick, irregardless of whether he is a DE, DT, NT, MLB, ILB, OLB.

I agree with everything here irregardless of irregardless not being a word.

Missouribronc
01-18-2011, 09:29 PM
Deceiving comment. Polian made the absolute perfect picks in Indy. So, sure, if you are confident enough to know that guy is your guy and you only have to make two picks at DE and you make the right picks, you can be that cocky...

I know its not quite the same, but it would be like Belicheck saying, "you can't pass on a franchise QB."

You can't know where that great pick is going to come from.

Team-building wise, there are four positions...QB, CB, LT and pass rusher/playmaker. They make the most and there's a reason for it.

Popps
01-18-2011, 09:30 PM
http://www.nfl.com/kickoff/story/09000d5d80a50113/article/the-most-important-position-on-defense

According to the article, benefits to having great DEs:

» A middle linebacker tends to have more room to operate if he's working behind an exceptional defensive end drawing blocking to the outside.

» A cornerback and a safety can suddenly become more effective in coverage if he has the help of a defensive end applying strong pressure on the passer.

So, if you think about it, Daquan Bowers -- who was the number one player in high school, and is arguably the number one player in the draft -- is available, and we are playing a 4-3, how in the world can we pass on him?

He has the size of a Reggie White and the production of a Elvis Dummervil. He had more sacks in his junior year than Robert Ayers had in his entire career at Tennessee.

Dumervil and Bowers? That's crucial.

I can't imagine anyone possibly not seeing this logic.

Missouribronc
01-18-2011, 09:33 PM
I can't imagine anyone possibly not seeing this logic.

Its good logic, but he could be a bust...yes, its possible...

OABB
01-18-2011, 09:33 PM
I can't imagine anyone possibly not seeing this logic.

Mike shanahan?

Ratboy
01-18-2011, 10:28 PM
I'm very interested to see where they go.

They have Ayers and Dumervil already.

Could they select Bowers and possibly trade Doom?

Is Doom capable of playing OLB?

DE: Bowers
DT: Vickerson? Fields?
DT: Thomas? Bannan?
DE: Ayers

Requiem
01-18-2011, 10:50 PM
If Bowers is drafted it is with the intention he starts with Elvis on a four man front, period. He has incredible skills and is a much better pass rusher than Ayers. That doesn't mean Robert can't see ample time on the field, but I don't think you will lose much in run defense (if any) with Bowers starting and he gives you much more of a thread. Ayers can slide inside on passing downs.

I would rather Bowers than Fairley anyways. Denver can nab a defensive tackle early in round two. Plenty of them available.

Agamemnon
01-19-2011, 02:00 AM
Ayers fits the mold of a strongside DE already. Bowers would help the pass rush, but not the run defense (which is absolutely awful) as he and Ayers are basically a wash in that area. I wouldn't be upset with Bowers as the pick, but I honestly tend to feel Fairley is the better choice for what we really need.

ol#7
01-19-2011, 02:15 AM
I think that adding a Bowers or Fairly makes it much more likely that Ayers turns into a player. If CB is such a need, and Im not sold that it is, Jimmy Smith out of CU has been graded as having the best cover skills in the draft and should be there in the second round.

The MVPlaya
01-19-2011, 02:17 AM
Anybody who says Ayers should move to a 4-3 linebacker should watch some games... let a lone a MLB linebacker in any system...

This is just outrageous.

IHaveALight
01-19-2011, 03:13 AM
I'd love to see this line on passing downs...

DE Doom
DT Ayers
DT Bannan
DE Bowers

footstepsfrom#27
01-19-2011, 03:33 AM
http://www.nfl.com/kickoff/story/09000d5d80a50113/article/the-most-important-position-on-defense

So, if you think about it, Daquan Bowers -- who was the number one player in high school, and is arguably the number one player in the draft -- is available, and we are playing a 4-3, how in the world can we pass on him?

He has the size of a Reggie White and the production of a Elvis Dummervil. He had more sacks in his junior year than Robert Ayers had in his entire career at Tennessee.

Dumervil and Bowers? That's crucial.
Bowers is 35 pounds lighter than White was when he played.

KevinJames
01-19-2011, 03:40 AM
Bottom line is taking a DE in the first round let alone #2 overall is a huge mistake when we have a guy like Robert Ayers who was a first round pick, his natural position is on the d-line and when he was at the senior bowl he ripped through tackles and guards and looked very explosive. Than we have Elvis Dumervil who has had a double digit sack season in the 4-3 already so we know he will be fine.Also Jason Hunter natural position is DE in the 4-3 too so we have him for depth.

Im fine with taking a DE later in the draft for more depth and for the sake of third downs but taking a guy like Bowers at #2 has huge mistake written all over it.

Lets try out this Elvis and Ayers experiment

spend the pick on talent at a position of need like DT if Fairley is there and he checks out with our scouts, or Patrick Peterson if either Champ or Cox don't return next season and even if they do Champ is getting up there in age and Goodman is as well and can't be relied on health wise.

mikey555
01-19-2011, 06:27 AM
For starters, because Kiper is a complete tool.

This is very true!!

TheChamp24
01-19-2011, 06:31 AM
I think some people don't realize we have a good chance of starting Andre Goodman as our #1 CB with Squid or Cassius Vaughn likely #2. We have so many needs on defense, I just feel we gotta go for the best available player, whether that be Bowers, Peterson, Fairley.
IMO, I still think it'd be better to draft Peterson and take a DE/DT in round 2. The depth is good for the DL in round 2.

CEH
01-19-2011, 06:38 AM
http://www.nfl.com/kickoff/story/09000d5d80a50113/article/the-most-important-position-on-defense

According to the article, benefits to having great DEs:

» A middle linebacker tends to have more room to operate if he's working behind an exceptional defensive end drawing blocking to the outside.

» A cornerback and a safety can suddenly become more effective in coverage if he has the help of a defensive end applying strong pressure on the passer.

So, if you think about it, Daquan Bowers -- who was the number one player in high school, and is arguably the number one player in the draft -- is available, and we are playing a 4-3, how in the world can we pass on him?

He has the size of a Reggie White and the production of a Elvis Dummervil. He had more sacks in his junior year than Robert Ayers had in his entire career at Tennessee.

Dumervil and Bowers? That's crucial.

Be careful about DT at #2. The bust rate is extremely high (Suh the exception) and the time to impact is longer.

I want Bowers at this point

cmhargrove
01-19-2011, 06:41 AM
Just not sold on Ayers.

I don't get personel guys sometimes. Ayers had 4 sacks his junior season, then 3 sacks his senior season, but he somehow was suppose to increase that number in the pros when he couldn't even sack the QB against inferior talent in college?

Where is the logic behind that?

Good run stuffer, but nothing more, nothing less.

I'll agree with this. Ayers still seems to be waiting, holding back - or maybe this truly is his ceiling. I thought Nunnely would surely be able to coax the fire out of him, but he just hasn't shown me that he will be an elite playmaker.

Good. Serviceable. Just not extremely productive. Another offseason could only do him good, but if we traded him for a "player of need" I wouldn't be upset at all.

cmhargrove
01-19-2011, 06:43 AM
He played MLB in high school

Well then - let's move DJ back to running back. We need some help there also.

55CrushEm
01-19-2011, 07:07 AM
And you know this how?

Then why is he ranked #2 on Kiper's board? For the hell of it?

Maybe he'll be great....maybe he won't.....but you do know Kiper's an idiot, right?

He's got tons of doozies.....but the best was that JaMarcus will be the next John Elway......

Dedhed
01-19-2011, 07:08 AM
He [Ayers]played MLB in high school

Man, are people really this naive around here?

Dedhed
01-19-2011, 07:13 AM
I forgot, you want AJ Green with the 2nd pick. My bad. It could still happen.

You just keep getting your takes from Kiper, skippy, and everything will work out great for you.

/sarcasm

55CrushEm
01-19-2011, 07:14 AM
I think some people don't realize we have a good chance of starting Andre Goodman as our #1 CB with Squid or Cassius Vaughn likely #2. We have so many needs on defense, I just feel we gotta go for the best available player, whether that be Bowers, Peterson, Fairley.
IMO, I still think it'd be better to draft Peterson and take a DE/DT in round 2. The depth is good for the DL in round 2.

That's the point.....I don't want more DEPTH! I want a ****ing IMPACT PLAYER!

While Ayers may continue to get better.....he hasn't shown me that he's anything close to an "impact" player.

2KBack
01-19-2011, 07:24 AM
Maybe he'll be great....maybe he won't.....but you do know Kiper's an idiot, right?

He's got tons of doozies.....but the best was that JaMarcus will be the next John Elway......

http://www.dickipedia.org/dick.php?title=Mel_Kiper%2C_Jr.

bendog
01-19-2011, 07:36 AM
This thread presumes there's a franchise DE in the draft. There's no Mario Williams or Bruce Smith. There are two guys who may be very good or who may be busts. And Fairley has some bust potential too.

TheChamp24
01-19-2011, 07:41 AM
That's the point.....I don't want more DEPTH! I want a ****ing IMPACT PLAYER!

While Ayers may continue to get better.....he hasn't shown me that he's anything close to an "impact" player.

We don't even know what defense we'll be running.
Dumervil is our pass rushing DE, we have virtually little DT, and Ayers can be a decent strong side DE I think that can stuff the run and get adequate pressure. The key is getting a beast from DT, like Trevor Pryce was. However, I have huge concerns about Fairley.
Like I said, to me, take Peterson in round 1, he can start immediately and probably be solid with a promising future.
Round 2, Clayborn, JJ Watt, Cameron Jordan, Cameron Heyward, Allen Bailey, and if he falls, Paea in the middle.
I just have a mixed feeling about Fairley and Bowers. Personally I feel we need Fairley more than Bowers, but that just has huge bust potential to me.
If we go with Fairley, though it gives us a good option in draft.

Round 1, Fairley
Round 2, can take whats left of the above crop of DL for added depth and also probably get one of the following CB's:
Aaron Williams
Jimmy Smith
Ras Dowling
Curtis Brown

JDub15
01-19-2011, 07:41 AM
I agree with the basic premise: If you have a CB and DE of equal skill available, take the lineman. Always take the lineman. Winning football begins with the lines. Hasn't changed since the game was invented.

You might want to tell that to the Steelers who have been decimated by injuries on both line but are in the AFC championship game this year. Last year when they lost their best defensive player (who happens to be a DB) the defense collapsed and they didn't make the playoffs.

You might also want to tell that to the Saints who won the superbowl with Jamon Bushrod playing LT and with a below average defensive line.

Or the Cardinals who made to the superbowl with one of the worst offensive lines in the league.

But I guess fans favor platitudes over reality. There's no right or wrong way to build a team, draft the best player.

JDub15
01-19-2011, 07:47 AM
This thread presumes there's a franchise DE in the draft. There's no Mario Williams or Bruce Smith. There are two guys who may be very good or who may be busts. And Fairley has some bust potential too.

I agree. Last year I thought Jerry Hughes was the only "franchise" DE - and he went to the Colts. Dunlap would have been a close second but had off the field issues.

This year I feel like Marcell Dareus is a franchise 3-4 DE or a 4-3 DT. Would take him over a boom or bust guy like Fairly in a heartbeat. I also really like Stephen Paea DT/DE from Oregon St. Adding him in the second round would be a dream scenario but i doubt he falls that far.

Dontay Moch is also up there if we wanted another undersized DE/OLB.

Bowers and Fairly are both boom or bust. They have elite athletic talent but don't have the maturity in their games. It takes more than talent to make it in the NFL.

Dedhed
01-19-2011, 07:50 AM
I think some people don't realize we have a good chance of starting Andre Goodman as our #1 CB with Squid or Cassius Vaughn likely #2.
If that doesn't make you shiver with fright, it ought to.

Dedhed
01-19-2011, 07:53 AM
While Ayers may continue to get better.....he hasn't shown me that he's anything close to an "impact" player.
Ayers was probably our most impactful player prior to his injury. That may not say much given our talent, but it does say something.

bendog
01-19-2011, 07:56 AM
I agree. Last year I thought Jerry Hughes was the only "franchise" DE - and he went to the Colts. Dunlap would have been a close second but had off the field issues.

This year I feel like Marcell Dareus is a franchise 3-4 DE or a 4-3 DT. Would take him over a boom or bust guy like Fairly in a heartbeat. I also really like Stephen Paea DT/DE from Oregon St. Adding him in the second round would be a dream scenario but i doubt he falls that far.

Dontay Moch is also up there if we wanted another undersized DE/OLB.

Bowers and Fairly are both boom or bust. They have elite athletic talent but don't have the maturity in their games. It takes more than talent to make it in the NFL.

i agree. Dareus has the least bust factor, and given the past two drafts, this is no time to roll dice. There's no reason this team should not be able to get Dareus and either Powe or the humoungous NT from Baylor in the second (assuming the staff likes either) and get a RT prospect both in the second, and then go bpa looking for bargains in the front seven and running back. And resign Champ.

JDub15
01-19-2011, 07:58 AM
i agree. Dareus has the least bust factor, and given the past two drafts, this is no time to roll dice. There's no reason this team should not be able to get Dareus and either Powe or the humoungous NT from Baylor in the second (assuming the staff likes either) and get a RT prospect both in the second, and then go bpa looking for bargains in the front seven and running back. And resign Champ.

Yeah, to me it's either Dareus or Patrick Peterson, anything else and I'll be disappointed.

gyldenlove
01-19-2011, 08:01 AM
Be careful about DT at #2. The bust rate is extremely high (Suh the exception) and the time to impact is longer.

I want Bowers at this point

Sinec 1995, here is how the DTs drafted in the top 10 break down:

2000 - Corey Simon (6): Started his career well with the Eagles and was a feature as an inside rusher and was quite a complete DT, was in the Pro Bowl in 2003. Refused to sign his franchise tag and was eventually let go, signed with the Colts where he suffered through some injuries and was not at the super bowl or invited to the ring ceremony after the Colts won. (Not bust)

2001 - Gerrard Warren (3): Was a bust in Cleveland, had a short spurt of solid play in Denver as part of the Browncos defensive line, was shipped to Oakland where he played up and down as most players tend to do down there, has enjoyed a career resurgence as part of the Patriots defensive line. (Bust)

2001 - Richard Seymour (6): Was drafted as a DT but ended up playing DE, multiple time pro bowler and super bowl winner and one of the best 3-4 DEs to play the the game in the last 10 years. (Not bust)

2002 - Ryan Sims (6): Was a flop in Kansas City (thank god) and was not much better in Tampa Bay after he was traded. (Bust)

2002 - John Henderson (9): Formed a dominant duo with Marcus Stroud in Jacksonville for several years, his play declined noticibly without Stroud, but still made it to 2 pro bowls and a 2nd team AP all star spot. (Not bust)

2003 - Dewayne Robertson (4): Never lived up to his play in college and is deserdly out of the league. (Bust)

2003 - Jonathan Sullivan (6): Huge bust, played only 3 years and never did anything of note. (Bust)

2003 - Kevin Williams (9): 6 pro bowls, 5 all pros, all decade, 5 all NFC and probably the most disruptive 4-3 DT in the league. (Not bust)

2007 - Amobi Okoye (10): Was the youngest player drafted that year, but has not developed in the pros and is a player the Texans are looking to replace. (Bust)

2008 - Glenn Dorsey (5): Was disappointing early in his career but has found a home at DE in the 3-4 and is an important reason why the Chiefs defense has improved. (Not bust)

2008 - Sedrick Ellis (7): Is a regular starter for the defending super bowl champs and lead the team in sacks this year. (Not bust)

2009 - BJ Raji (9): NT for one of the best defenses in the league and may be the heir apparent to Casey Hampton and Ty Warren for the title as the best NT in football. (Not bust)

It is early but I think we can assume that both Suh and Mccoy are not going to bust.

I left out Tyson Jackson because he was drafted as a DE and plays DE, although I do consider him a bust, and will count him for the total, just for fairness.

That by my count gives us 9 not busts and 6 busts. I don't know that that rate is much better or worse than other positions, but it is certainly not a big sample, so it is not conclusive.

rbackfactory80
01-19-2011, 08:03 AM
Says the guy whose entire career has rested on the throwing arms of two of the best QB's.

JDub15
01-19-2011, 08:07 AM
Sinec 1995, here is how the DTs drafted in the top 10 break down:

2000 - Corey Simon (6): Started his career well with the Eagles and was a feature as an inside rusher and was quite a complete DT, was in the Pro Bowl in 2003. Refused to sign his franchise tag and was eventually let go, signed with the Colts where he suffered through some injuries and was not at the super bowl or invited to the ring ceremony after the Colts won. (Not bust)

2001 - Gerrard Warren (3): Was a bust in Cleveland, had a short spurt of solid play in Denver as part of the Browncos defensive line, was shipped to Oakland where he played up and down as most players tend to do down there, has enjoyed a career resurgence as part of the Patriots defensive line. (Bust)

2001 - Richard Seymour (6): Was drafted as a DT but ended up playing DE, multiple time pro bowler and super bowl winner and one of the best 3-4 DEs to play the the game in the last 10 years. (Not bust)

2002 - Ryan Sims (6): Was a flop in Kansas City (thank god) and was not much better in Tampa Bay after he was traded. (Bust)

2002 - John Henderson (9): Formed a dominant duo with Marcus Stroud in Jacksonville for several years, his play declined noticibly without Stroud, but still made it to 2 pro bowls and a 2nd team AP all star spot. (Not bust)

2003 - Dewayne Robertson (4): Never lived up to his play in college and is deserdly out of the league. (Bust)

2003 - Jonathan Sullivan (6): Huge bust, played only 3 years and never did anything of note. (Bust)

2003 - Kevin Williams (9): 6 pro bowls, 5 all pros, all decade, 5 all NFC and probably the most disruptive 4-3 DT in the league. (Not bust)

2007 - Amobi Okoye (10): Was the youngest player drafted that year, but has not developed in the pros and is a player the Texans are looking to replace. (Bust)

2008 - Glenn Dorsey (5): Was disappointing early in his career but has found a home at DE in the 3-4 and is an important reason why the Chiefs defense has improved. (Not bust)

2008 - Sedrick Ellis (7): Is a regular starter for the defending super bowl champs and lead the team in sacks this year. (Not bust)

2009 - BJ Raji (9): NT for one of the best defenses in the league and may be the heir apparent to Casey Hampton and Ty Warren for the title as the best NT in football. (Not bust)

It is early but I think we can assume that both Suh and Mccoy are not going to bust.

I left out Tyson Jackson because he was drafted as a DE and plays DE, although I do consider him a bust, and will count him for the total, just for fairness.

That by my count gives us 9 not busts and 6 busts. I don't know that that rate is much better or worse than other positions, but it is certainly not a big sample, so it is not conclusive.

Good review. I would strongly consider Glenn Dorsey a bust. For the #4 overall pick he did not impact the defense for what - 3 years? Now he is finally a league average player, probably not what you want for #4 overall.

Agreed on Tyson Jackson, he was over drafted based on the idea that you have to draft D-linemen high and no one else is deserving of that pick.

bendog
01-19-2011, 08:17 AM
I wouldn't call big money a bust. Barring injury Dareus should be at least a capable 3-4 DE for years. But he may be no more than that. Peterson has the least bust potential, but there's just no talent in the front seven beyond doom in 3-4.

If they want to move to a 4-3, I still think Dareus is the safest choice. Ayers may never stay healthy and McD totally whiffed on his other first round draft cluster****. Bowers may have matured, so if the combine interviews show a more serious guy, I may not have arythmia over him as a pick. But, can a team have Ayers and Bower and Doom? Plus, from what I've read this is a poor draft for 3-4 OLB types, so given Doom's pretty bad run defense and the draft, I hope they just stick 3-4.

LRtagger
01-19-2011, 08:35 AM
And you know this how?

Then why is he ranked #2 on Kiper's board? For the hell of it?

Mayock ranked Ayers as the #3 player in the 09 draft.

gyldenlove
01-19-2011, 09:19 AM
Good review. I would strongly consider Glenn Dorsey a bust. For the #4 overall pick he did not impact the defense for what - 3 years? Now he is finally a league average player, probably not what you want for #4 overall.

Agreed on Tyson Jackson, he was over drafted based on the idea that you have to draft D-linemen high and no one else is deserving of that pick.

The reason I don't consider Dorsey a bust right now is based on projection, I am projecting that he will be a solid 3-4 DE for years, a kind of Ty Warren player.

gyldenlove
01-19-2011, 09:21 AM
I wouldn't call big money a bust. Barring injury Dareus should be at least a capable 3-4 DE for years. But he may be no more than that. Peterson has the least bust potential, but there's just no talent in the front seven beyond doom in 3-4.

If they want to move to a 4-3, I still think Dareus is the safest choice. Ayers may never stay healthy and McD totally whiffed on his other first round draft cluster****. Bowers may have matured, so if the combine interviews show a more serious guy, I may not have arythmia over him as a pick. But, can a team have Ayers and Bower and Doom? Plus, from what I've read this is a poor draft for 3-4 OLB types, so given Doom's pretty bad run defense and the draft, I hope they just stick 3-4.

I consider Big money a bust because he has only really had 2 strong seasons and many poor seasons. If he can recover his career with 3 or 4 solid years in New England or some place else he can definitely get rid of the bust lable but for now he has been too inconsistent.

I agree Dareus is the safer pick, but he also seems like the pedestrian option and I am just not sure that you draft a player who doesn't have more upside than that at the number 2 spot.

CEH
01-19-2011, 09:34 AM
Sinec 1995, here is how the DTs drafted in the top 10 break down:

2000 - Corey Simon (6): Started his career well with the Eagles and was a feature as an inside rusher and was quite a complete DT, was in the Pro Bowl in 2003. Refused to sign his franchise tag and was eventually let go, signed with the Colts where he suffered through some injuries and was not at the super bowl or invited to the ring ceremony after the Colts won. (Not bust)

2001 - Gerrard Warren (3): Was a bust in Cleveland, had a short spurt of solid play in Denver as part of the Browncos defensive line, was shipped to Oakland where he played up and down as most players tend to do down there, has enjoyed a career resurgence as part of the Patriots defensive line. (Bust)

2001 - Richard Seymour (6): Was drafted as a DT but ended up playing DE, multiple time pro bowler and super bowl winner and one of the best 3-4 DEs to play the the game in the last 10 years. (Not bust)

2002 - Ryan Sims (6): Was a flop in Kansas City (thank god) and was not much better in Tampa Bay after he was traded. (Bust)

2002 - John Henderson (9): Formed a dominant duo with Marcus Stroud in Jacksonville for several years, his play declined noticibly without Stroud, but still made it to 2 pro bowls and a 2nd team AP all star spot. (Not bust)

2003 - Dewayne Robertson (4): Never lived up to his play in college and is deserdly out of the league. (Bust)

2003 - Jonathan Sullivan (6): Huge bust, played only 3 years and never did anything of note. (Bust)

2003 - Kevin Williams (9): 6 pro bowls, 5 all pros, all decade, 5 all NFC and probably the most disruptive 4-3 DT in the league. (Not bust)

2007 - Amobi Okoye (10): Was the youngest player drafted that year, but has not developed in the pros and is a player the Texans are looking to replace. (Bust)

2008 - Glenn Dorsey (5): Was disappointing early in his career but has found a home at DE in the 3-4 and is an important reason why the Chiefs defense has improved. (Not bust)

2008 - Sedrick Ellis (7): Is a regular starter for the defending super bowl champs and lead the team in sacks this year. (Not bust)

2009 - BJ Raji (9): NT for one of the best defenses in the league and may be the heir apparent to Casey Hampton and Ty Warren for the title as the best NT in football. (Not bust)

It is early but I think we can assume that both Suh and Mccoy are not going to bust.

I left out Tyson Jackson because he was drafted as a DE and plays DE, although I do consider him a bust, and will count him for the total, just for fairness.

That by my count gives us 9 not busts and 6 busts. I don't know that that rate is much better or worse than other positions, but it is certainly not a big sample, so it is not conclusive.

How many bust were top 5 vs top 10 ? We are talking top two. Daruis by your examples would probably be the better selection and I would not disagree

Glen Dorsey is a bust IMO. He has not had any impact plays based on where he was drafted. You could have selected a 2nd round DT instead of Dorsey and got the same production. The next impact play Dorsey makes will be his first.

Beantown Bronco
01-19-2011, 09:54 AM
I consider Big money a bust because he has only really had 2 strong seasons and many poor seasons. If he can recover his career with 3 or 4 solid years in New England or some place else he can definitely get rid of the bust lable but for now he has been too inconsistent.


The guy's been in the league, as a solid starter, for 10 freaking years. By definition, that's not a bust. It's not a coincidence that his worst years were with the Browns and Oakland. Should we only judge Randy Moss's career by his time in Oakland?

gyldenlove
01-19-2011, 09:55 AM
How many bust were top 5 vs top 10 ? We are talking top two. Daruis by your examples would probably be the better selection and I would not disagree

Glen Dorsey is a bust IMO. He has not had any impact plays based on where he was drafted. You could have selected a 2nd round DT instead of Dorsey and got the same production. The next impact play Dorsey makes will be his first.

Only 5 and Tyson Jackson taken in the top 5 so too small a sample size to conclude anything, but it splits 3 and 3 for those 6 guys.

Vince Wilfork doesn't make a whole lot of impact plays but that doesn't mean he is not one of the top DTs in the league.

gyldenlove
01-19-2011, 09:59 AM
The guy's been in the league, as a solid starter, for 10 freaking years. By definition, that's not a bust. It's not a coincidence that his worst years were with the Browns and Oakland. Should we only judge Randy Moss's career by his time in Oakland?

I think solid is overstating how he has played. He was unimpressive in Cleveland (4 years) and frankly his 2nd year in Denver wasn't too inspired either. I would say he has had 3 good years, the fact he has started I think has more to do with the contracts he has signed than anything.

fdf
01-19-2011, 10:08 AM
Mike shanahan?

LOL. Too true. Although he might pick up Reggie White today on a multi-gazillion dollar free agency contract. Reggie just might have a couple more good years in him. And we're only a player or two away from the Super Bowl.

Jay3
01-19-2011, 10:09 AM
I say take Fairley or Bowers, whichever is available. It's a good position to be in this year. I don't think we should trade the pick.

(Subject to revision after combine).

Steve Sewell
01-19-2011, 10:32 AM
The more I think about it, the more I believe that the Broncos will switch back to a 4-3 and put Ayers at LDE and Doom at RDE. Ayers is a very large man...I don't know if people realize but he's 6'3" 275-280. He's a very strong run stopper and a serviceable pass rusher. He just needs to stay healthy.

That leaves a hole at the DT position IMO. We need to draft an elite talent at DT. Sounds like both Fairley and Dareus fit that bill, with a few others right behind.

However, if your favorite DT is taken at #1...I could see the Broncos being hard pressed to pass on Peterson, with all the talk we hear about him being one of those "generational" talents that you simply can't pass up.

bendog
01-19-2011, 10:33 AM
I don't see how Bowers plays in a 3-4, and Ayers has a contract. I suspect Bowers may be the best front 7 in the draft, but I don't see what they do with Ayers' contract even if Ayers can stay on the active list.

Steve Sewell
01-19-2011, 10:35 AM
The guy's been in the league, as a solid starter, for 10 freaking years. By definition, that's not a bust. It's not a coincidence that his worst years were with the Browns and Oakland. Should we only judge Randy Moss's career by his time in Oakland?

I agree...people calling Gerard Warren a bust make me chuckle. Bust as a human being? Perhaps. As a player? Hell no. He was a pretty big part of our AFC Championship team defense in 2005, and as you say, if he's been a starting DT in the NFL for 10 years he's certainly not a bust.

bendog
01-19-2011, 10:38 AM
The more I think about it, the more I believe that the Broncos will switch back to a 4-3 and put Ayers at LDE and Doom at RDE. Ayers is a very large man...I don't know if people realize but he's 6'3" 275-280. He's a very strong run stopper and a serviceable pass rusher. He just needs to stay healthy.

That leaves a hole at the DT position IMO. We need to draft an elite talent at DT. Sounds like both Fairley and Dareus fit that bill, with a few others right behind.

However, if your favorite DT is taken at #1...I could see the Broncos being hard pressed to pass on Peterson, with all the talk we hear about him being one of those "generational" talents that you simply can't pass up.

You may be right. The question then is will they go sort of Greg Robinson where everyone is essentially a one gapper, or do they go sort with a more traditional two gap DT, and and undertackle or two two gap DT's. I really have no idea what Car's scheme was, but with Ayers and Doom being adequate and light respectively, I almost think having them take wide splits outside the offensive tackles and putting run stop DT's who can push the pocket makes some sense. Where's big money and turf tit when you need em? (-:

Bigdawg26
01-19-2011, 10:44 AM
I fell in love with farley after the championship, but now its starting to die down a little bit. I think farley is to much of chance a bust after just one great year and character issues than we can afford right now. I think dareus is a safer pick and we need a definite chance impact player.

lostknight
01-19-2011, 11:00 AM
Fairley's bust potential is much too high. I don't trust any player who only looks good when unblocked, and who takes plays off. Bowers I would be fine with. Honestly, we should still trade back. Bowers or Fairley won't make much of a impact this year one way or another.

Beantown Bronco
01-19-2011, 11:15 AM
I think solid is overstating how he has played. He was unimpressive in Cleveland (4 years) and frankly his 2nd year in Denver wasn't too inspired either. I would say he has had 3 good years, the fact he has started I think has more to do with the contracts he has signed than anything.

Huh? Was he a bust, or did he perform so well on the field that teams rewarded him with big $ contracts? I'm confused.

(And BTW he's basically making the league minimum this year in NE, so they're certainly not being economically forced into playing him)

~Crash~
01-19-2011, 11:20 AM
The CB postion is the cherry on top .

Bigdawg26
01-19-2011, 11:20 AM
Fairley's bust potential is much too high. I don't trust any player who only looks good when unblocked, and who takes plays off. Bowers I would be fine with. Honestly, we should still trade back. Bowers or Fairley won't make much of a impact this year one way or another.

Agreed! And Dareus has had two good season. Even in his junior, he still had a good year when doubled and tripled teamed all year.

cmhargrove
01-19-2011, 11:22 AM
Fairley's bust potential is much too high. I don't trust any player who only looks good when unblocked, and who takes plays off. Bowers I would be fine with. Honestly, we should still trade back. Bowers or Fairley won't make much of a impact this year one way or another.

Didn't we have much the same conversation about BJ Raji a couple years ago?

I say, take the best player we can. All players can bust, but a guy that dominates and plays mean like Fairley is welcome on my defense any day.

You have an elite pass rusher already that just needs one-on-one matchups to get the sacks your team needs. Put some bad mofos next to him so he can do his thing.

Bring on Fairley, let's get a mean, dirty defense again.

~Crash~
01-19-2011, 11:22 AM
to the haters If The Tiger's players were taking plays off rushing the passer someone does need to stay home for the run...

~Crash~
01-19-2011, 11:24 AM
It is call alternating who is the pass rusher. and who stays home...

~Crash~
01-19-2011, 11:26 AM
You guys act like 311 pound men have no need for air. Oregon was trying to wear them down and the tigers did what they need to do.

epicSocialism4tw
01-19-2011, 11:28 AM
Sinec 1995, here is how the DTs drafted in the top 10 break down:

2000 - Corey Simon (6): Started his career well with the Eagles and was a feature as an inside rusher and was quite a complete DT, was in the Pro Bowl in 2003. Refused to sign his franchise tag and was eventually let go, signed with the Colts where he suffered through some injuries and was not at the super bowl or invited to the ring ceremony after the Colts won. (Not bust)

2001 - Gerrard Warren (3): Was a bust in Cleveland, had a short spurt of solid play in Denver as part of the Browncos defensive line, was shipped to Oakland where he played up and down as most players tend to do down there, has enjoyed a career resurgence as part of the Patriots defensive line. (Bust)

2001 - Richard Seymour (6): Was drafted as a DT but ended up playing DE, multiple time pro bowler and super bowl winner and one of the best 3-4 DEs to play the the game in the last 10 years. (Not bust)

2002 - Ryan Sims (6): Was a flop in Kansas City (thank god) and was not much better in Tampa Bay after he was traded. (Bust)

2002 - John Henderson (9): Formed a dominant duo with Marcus Stroud in Jacksonville for several years, his play declined noticibly without Stroud, but still made it to 2 pro bowls and a 2nd team AP all star spot. (Not bust)

2003 - Dewayne Robertson (4): Never lived up to his play in college and is deserdly out of the league. (Bust)

2003 - Jonathan Sullivan (6): Huge bust, played only 3 years and never did anything of note. (Bust)

2003 - Kevin Williams (9): 6 pro bowls, 5 all pros, all decade, 5 all NFC and probably the most disruptive 4-3 DT in the league. (Not bust)

2007 - Amobi Okoye (10): Was the youngest player drafted that year, but has not developed in the pros and is a player the Texans are looking to replace. (Bust)

2008 - Glenn Dorsey (5): Was disappointing early in his career but has found a home at DE in the 3-4 and is an important reason why the Chiefs defense has improved. (Not bust)

2008 - Sedrick Ellis (7): Is a regular starter for the defending super bowl champs and lead the team in sacks this year. (Not bust)

2009 - BJ Raji (9): NT for one of the best defenses in the league and may be the heir apparent to Casey Hampton and Ty Warren for the title as the best NT in football. (Not bust)

It is early but I think we can assume that both Suh and Mccoy are not going to bust.

I left out Tyson Jackson because he was drafted as a DE and plays DE, although I do consider him a bust, and will count him for the total, just for fairness.

That by my count gives us 9 not busts and 6 busts. I don't know that that rate is much better or worse than other positions, but it is certainly not a big sample, so it is not conclusive.

Gerard Warren was a victim of the Browns' swap from a 4-3 to a 3-4 and was the Broncos' best defensive lineman on a team that regularly went to the playoffs and made the AFC Championship game. I wouldnt say that he was an All-Pro, but he was a productive player for Denver and Oakland both. He's still playing well in New England.

I think its quite a stretch to call him a bust.

You draft for starters, and he has been a starting DT in the NFL for years.

Dedhed
01-19-2011, 11:45 AM
Mayock ranked Ayers as the #3 player in the 09 draft.

With the caviat that it would probably be 3 years before he reached his potential.

Dedhed
01-19-2011, 12:06 PM
Sinec 1995, here is how the DTs drafted in the top 10 break down:

2000 - Corey Simon (6): Started his career well with the Eagles and was a feature as an inside rusher and was quite a complete DT, was in the Pro Bowl in 2003. Refused to sign his franchise tag and was eventually let go, signed with the Colts where he suffered through some injuries and was not at the super bowl or invited to the ring ceremony after the Colts won. (Not bust)

2001 - Gerrard Warren (3): Was a bust in Cleveland, had a short spurt of solid play in Denver as part of the Browncos defensive line, was shipped to Oakland where he played up and down as most players tend to do down there, has enjoyed a career resurgence as part of the Patriots defensive line. (Bust)

2001 - Richard Seymour (6): Was drafted as a DT but ended up playing DE, multiple time pro bowler and super bowl winner and one of the best 3-4 DEs to play the the game in the last 10 years. (Not bust)

2002 - Ryan Sims (6): Was a flop in Kansas City (thank god) and was not much better in Tampa Bay after he was traded. (Bust)

2002 - John Henderson (9): Formed a dominant duo with Marcus Stroud in Jacksonville for several years, his play declined noticibly without Stroud, but still made it to 2 pro bowls and a 2nd team AP all star spot. (Not bust)

2003 - Dewayne Robertson (4): Never lived up to his play in college and is deserdly out of the league. (Bust)

2003 - Jonathan Sullivan (6): Huge bust, played only 3 years and never did anything of note. (Bust)

2003 - Kevin Williams (9): 6 pro bowls, 5 all pros, all decade, 5 all NFC and probably the most disruptive 4-3 DT in the league. (Not bust)

2007 - Amobi Okoye (10): Was the youngest player drafted that year, but has not developed in the pros and is a player the Texans are looking to replace. (Bust)

2008 - Glenn Dorsey (5): Was disappointing early in his career but has found a home at DE in the 3-4 and is an important reason why the Chiefs defense has improved. (Not bust)

2008 - Sedrick Ellis (7): Is a regular starter for the defending super bowl champs and lead the team in sacks this year. (Not bust)

2009 - BJ Raji (9): NT for one of the best defenses in the league and may be the heir apparent to Casey Hampton and Ty Warren for the title as the best NT in football. (Not bust)

It is early but I think we can assume that both Suh and Mccoy are not going to bust.

I left out Tyson Jackson because he was drafted as a DE and plays DE, although I do consider him a bust, and will count him for the total, just for fairness.

That by my count gives us 9 not busts and 6 busts. I don't know that that rate is much better or worse than other positions, but it is certainly not a big sample, so it is not conclusive.
Here's a list of the DBs taken high in the first round since 2000. I included all top 10 picks, and in the event there was no DB taken in the top 10, I included the first DB off the board. I did not include anyone taken outside of the top 15.

Joe Haden-Shaky start, but improved a great deal.
Eric Berry-Unfortunately looks like a stud in the making.
Darelle Revis-Top 5 defender in league
Laron Landry-Solid, but a little disappointing
Malcolm Jenkins-Very Solid
Leodis McKelvin-Very Solid
Michael Huff-Very Solid
Donte Whitner-Solid
Pacman Jones-Stud on the field, douche off it.
Antrelle Rolle-Very Solid
Carlos Rogers-Very Solid
Deangelo Hall-Very Solid
Dunta Robinson- Stud
Terrance Newman-Very Good
Quentin Jammer-Very Solid
Roy Williams-Solid starter, but a little disappointing overall
Deltha O'neal-Way to go Shanny, you managed to pick the only true bust on the board!

Not really a "Bust" on the list other than Deltha, who absolutely no one had as a first round talent.

bronco0608
01-19-2011, 12:12 PM
Here's a list of the DBs taken high in the first round since 2000. I included all top 10 picks, and in the event there was no DB taken in the top 10, I included the first DB off the board. I did not include anyone taken outside of the top 15.

Joe Haden-Shaky start, but improved a great deal.
Eric Berry-Unfortunately looks like a stud in the making.
Darelle Revis-Top 5 defender in league
Malcolm Jenkins-Very Solid
Leodis McKelvin-Very Solid
Michael Huff-Very Solid
Pacman Jones-Stud on the field
Antrelle Rolle-Very Solid
Carlos Rogers-Very Solid
Deangelo Hall-Very Solid
Dunta Robinson- Stud
Terrance Newman-Very Good
Quentin Jammer-Very Solid
Roy Williams-Solid starter, but a little disappointing overall
Deltha O'neal-Way to go Shanny, you managed to pick the only true bust on the board!

So you are saying to draft a CB with the 2nd overall.

Why is it that DBs are never taken with the first three picks again?

You think there is a reason for that?

Dedhed
01-19-2011, 12:18 PM
So you are saying to draft a CB with the 2nd overall.YES

Why is it that DBs are never taken with the first three picks again?Because people are dumb and continue to think that you have to take DL before guys in the secondary. Despite what history tells them about attrition rates and the impact of the CBs and safeties that are taken high.

bendog
01-19-2011, 12:22 PM
you'd have been ok had you not had to reach for the mcdhugger/ shanny dig and just stuck with top ten. But yeah, dback is usually a safer bet in the top ten. Probably the safest overall along with possibly linebacker. OT's work out too, assuming you don't count gallery.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/alltimeno1

ron yary is HOF. Pace will be. And there's Jake Long.

bendog
01-19-2011, 12:23 PM
YES

Because people are dumb and continue to think that you have to take DL before guys in the secondary. Despite what history tells them about attrition rates and the impact of the CBs and safeties that are taken high.

Have you ever considered WHY dlinemen are usually prized over secodary guys?

bronco0608
01-19-2011, 12:27 PM
YES

Because people are dumb and continue to think that you have to take DL before guys in the secondary. Despite what history tells them about attrition rates and the impact of the CBs and safeties that are taken high.

Are you just might be a tad bit naive to believe what you are saying.

So defensive linemen get better as the draft goes on?

And why even draft a QB with a top 10 pick? You could possibly get a David Klingler or Heath Schuler.

Play it safe it, man. Go guards and safties with top 10 picks.

bronco0608
01-19-2011, 12:29 PM
Have you ever considered WHY dlinemen are usually prized over secodary guys?

Defensive linemen are useless, pretty much. Denver has the worst front seven in football, yet we use the 2nd pick on a corner.

Makes complete sense! And you know why we have the worst front 7 in football? NO TALENT

Dedhed
01-19-2011, 12:33 PM
Are you just might be a tad bit naive to believe what you are saying.Are you just might be a tad bit...? Is that English?

So defensive linemen get better as the draft goes on?What?

And why even draft a QB with a top 10 pick? You could possibly get a David Klingler or Heath Schuler.I would put the same weight on any defender who got his hands on the ball on every single play.

I enjoy how you're completely ignoring what I actually posted; says a lot.

Dedhed
01-19-2011, 12:33 PM
Have you ever considered WHY dlinemen are usually prized over secodary guys?
Yes.

bronco0608
01-19-2011, 12:37 PM
Are you just might be a tad bit...? Is that English?

What?

I would put the same weight on any defender who got his hands on the ball on every single play.

I enjoy how you're completely ignoring what I actually posted; says a lot.

What are you trying to say? DBs don't bust?

Dedhed
01-19-2011, 12:40 PM
What are you trying to say? DBs don't bust?I said what I'm trying to say.

Just keep your takes to whatever Kiper feeds you.

bronco0608
01-19-2011, 12:51 PM
I said what I'm trying to say.



Ok, Kiper is an idiot. Why draft publication/analyst do you subcribe to?

Dedhed
01-19-2011, 12:54 PM
Ok, Kiper is an idiot. Why draft publication/analyst do you subcribe to?

How should Atlanta fans feel when Vick comes to play there?

bronco0608
01-19-2011, 12:55 PM
How should Atlanta fans feel when Vick comes to play there?

No. Try again. Read the call of the question.

bendog
01-19-2011, 12:55 PM
It's really sort of meaningless since you could have champ, revis, reed and hairguy and without a pass rush/run defense, your team is going to suck.

Dedhed
01-19-2011, 01:08 PM
It's really sort of meaningless since you could have champ, revis, reed and hairguy and without a pass rush/run defense, your team is going to suck.

And Vice versa inserting guys like Mario Williams.

Dedhed
01-19-2011, 01:09 PM
No. Try again. Read the call of the question.
I'm as shocked that went over your head as I am that Tyson Jackson hasn't lived up to a top 5 pick.

bronco0608
01-19-2011, 01:14 PM
I'm as shocked that went over your head as I am that Tyson Jackson hasn't lived up to a top 5 pick.


You try too hard to be clever. Half the crap you write you have to edit.

Just talk football, dude. Seriously.

Once again, what draft analyst/publication do you subscribe to?

bendog
01-19-2011, 01:15 PM
If a person is unable to understand that defense starts with the front 7 there's no reason ot bother posting

JDub15
01-19-2011, 01:16 PM
YES

Because people are dumb and continue to think that you have to take DL before guys in the secondary. Despite what history tells them about attrition rates and the impact of the CBs and safeties that are taken high.

This!!!!! Great Post

bronco0608
01-19-2011, 01:22 PM
If a person is unable to understand that defense starts with the front 7 there's no reason ot bother posting

We were last in the league in rushing defense AND sacks. The position has to be addressed, and luckily, two of the top three players in the draft are dlineman. We are not reaching by any means to address this teams biggest concern.

Going by dedhed's logic, he would have taken Eric Berry over Suh last year because DBs don't bust.

bendog
01-19-2011, 01:23 PM
btw, I wouldn't take dareus with the two, but I wouldn't be totally pissed if Elway managed to get two top 20 picks for Paea and an OT plus some change, assuming paea does well at the combine and Fox wants to go 4-3

JDub15
01-19-2011, 01:28 PM
And Vice versa inserting guys like Mario Williams.

This^^^

People don't seem to realize that having a good pass rush does not equate to having a good pass defense.

2010 Detroit Lions, ranked 6th in the league in adjusted sack rate, dropping the QB 7.7% of pass attempts they faced. They had a great D-line but overall a terrible pass defense.

There are literally hundreds of examples like this but most fans fail to make the connection.

Draft Analysts:
1. Drew Boylhart from www.thehuddlereport.com - simply the best in the biz, doesn't buy into any bull****, it costs $10 per year to read his stuff - definitely worth it. I think he posted some of his profiles for free, he nailed guys like Clay Matthews, Jay Cutler, Glenn Dorsey.

2. Sigmund Bloom from www.footballguys.com and www.draftguys.com - great football mind, he's usually very good in IDing prospects

3. Matt Waldmen from www.footballguys.com - also very good analyst, creates a huge "rookie scouting portfolio" detailing almost every skill position player in the draft.

4. Wes Bunting from www.nationalfootballpost.com - Wes is hit or miss but generally okay.

bronco0608
01-19-2011, 01:33 PM
This^^^

People don't seem to realize that having a good pass rush does not equate to having a good pass defense.

2010 Detroit Lions, ranked 6th in the league in adjusted sack rate, dropping the QB 7.7% of pass attempts they faced. They had a great D-line but overall a terrible pass defense.

There are literally hundreds of examples like this but most fans fail to make the connection.



What about the inverse, does a great secondary make a great pass rush? Or does a great secondary make you great at stopping the run?

bronco0608
01-19-2011, 01:46 PM
Draft Analysts:
1. Drew Boylhart from www.thehuddlereport.com - simply the best in the biz, doesn't buy into any bull****, it costs $10 per year to read his stuff - definitely worth it. I think he posted some of his profiles for free, he nailed guys like Clay Matthews, Jay Cutler, Glenn Dorsey.



Give me a break, all these draft analysts are the same. I remember Boylhart described Adam Carriker as a guy you build a defense around. How did that work out? Or giving Alex Barron a franchise tackle plug. Or how about giving a Jason Allen a high first round grade?

These guys just base what they see off each other. How come not a single one of these guys had Dumervil in the first round? You never see that. Boylhart gave Dumervil a mid round tag just like everybody else with same caveat - if Dumervil were 6'3", he'd be in my top ten. Give me a break.

Its all the same stuff. Look at Boylhart's top 25 and Kipers and tell me the difference.

Show me the draft analyst that had Jared Allen, Elvis Dummervil, and every other low round stud high in his mock draft board. You won't. When they start doing that, then they can be crowned king of the draft analyst.

Once you get to the Boylharts and Kipers level, they are all the same pretty much.

JDub15
01-19-2011, 01:52 PM
Give me a break, all these draft analysts are the same. I remember Boylhart described Adam Carriker as a guy you build a defense around. How did that work out? Or giving Alex Barron a franchise tackle plug. Or how about giving a Jason Allen a high first round grade?

These guys just base what they see off each other. How come not a single one of these guys had Dumervil in the first round? You never see that. Boylhart gave Dumervil a mid round tag just like everybody else with same caveat - if Dumervil were 6'3", he'd be in my top ten. Give me a break.

Its all the same stuff. Look at Boylhart's top 25 and Kipers and tell me the difference.

Show me the draft analyst that had Jared Allen, Elvis Dummervil, and every other low round stud high in his mock draft board. You won't. When they start doing that, then they can be crowned king of the draft analyst.

Once you get to the Boylharts and Kipers level, they are all the same pretty much.

Here is a direct quote from his profile on Doom:
"Elvis should go in the first round"

Every analyst has misses, Drew is simply the best, he ID's the first round busts and the overlooked studs better than anyone.

bronco0608
01-19-2011, 01:55 PM
Here is a direct quote from his profile on Doom:
"Elvis should go in the first round"

Every analyst has misses, Drew is simply the best, he ID's the first round busts and the overlooked studs better than anyone.

Oh really? Here is Boylhart's write up on Dummervil.

Strengths
Elvis is a powerfully-built, quick and fast DE. He is another one of the players in this draft with an unusually long wingspan for his size. He uses excellent speed and techniques to rush the passer. He has a variety of moves that shows his maturity and seriousness in succeeding at the next level. He is without a doubt, the quickest of all the DE’s in this draft off the line at the snap.



Needs to Improve
Elvis is vertically challenged at just 6’0” for his position. If he were two inches taller, everyone would be suggesting that Elvis would be the first DE picked off the board in this draft.



Talent Board Round 3:wave:

JDub15
01-19-2011, 01:57 PM
What about the inverse, does a great secondary make a great pass rush? Or does a great secondary make you great at stopping the run?

A great safety can help you stop the run, CB not so much. Certainly they won't have the impact a front-7 player will have. If you have good pass defense and need to improve run defense, then sure draft a front-7 guy. If you want a better pass defense, simply take the best pass rusher or DB, whichever you think is a better player, both will help.

Remember, pass offense is more important than run offense and pass defense is more important than run defense.

Pittsburgh pass defense in 2009 sans Troy P: ranked 14 (according to footballoutsiders)

Pittsburgh pass defense in 2010 with Troy: ranked 2

While good coverage can help pass rush, it's more likely to have a positive effect on pass defense overall, which isn't necessarily correlated with pass rush.

JDub15
01-19-2011, 02:00 PM
Oh really? Here is Boylhart's write up on Dummervil.

Strengths
Elvis is a powerfully-built, quick and fast DE. He is another one of the players in this draft with an unusually long wingspan for his size. He uses excellent speed and techniques to rush the passer. He has a variety of moves that shows his maturity and seriousness in succeeding at the next level. He is without a doubt, the quickest of all the DE’s in this draft off the line at the snap.



Needs to Improve
Elvis is vertically challenged at just 6’0” for his position. If he were two inches taller, everyone would be suggesting that Elvis would be the first DE picked off the board in this draft.



Talent Board Round 3:wave:

Reading is obviously not one of your strengths.... here is the rest of the profile:

Elvis should go in the first round. The mistake by many teams that need pass rushers is that they will downgrade him because of his size. This will be a big mistake. Elvis is a freak of nature and I mean that in a good way. He is the type of kid that plays bigger than his size. Scouts, GM’s and coaches that look at him and insist that he won’t be as good in the NFL as he is for his college team are exactly the type of people that run their teams with blinders on. He is stronger and much more technically mature than Dwight Freeney was when he was the 11th pick of the 2002 draft! He should be as much of an impact player as Freeney is. I call him Elvis (The Flying Fig) Dumervil because I don’t care where you play him -- just don’t be stupid enough not to draft him if you need a pass rusher. And doesn’t everyone need a pass rusher?

bronco0608
01-19-2011, 02:03 PM
Reading is obviously not one of your strengths.... here is the rest of the profile:

Elvis should go in the first round. The mistake by many teams that need pass rushers is that they will downgrade him because of his size. This will be a big mistake. Elvis is a freak of nature and I mean that in a good way. He is the type of kid that plays bigger than his size. Scouts, GM’s and coaches that look at him and insist that he won’t be as good in the NFL as he is for his college team are exactly the type of people that run their teams with blinders on. He is stronger and much more technically mature than Dwight Freeney was when he was the 11th pick of the 2002 draft! He should be as much of an impact player as Freeney is. I call him Elvis (The Flying Fig) Dumervil because I don’t care where you play him -- just don’t be stupid enough not to draft him if you need a pass rusher. And doesn’t everyone need a pass rusher?

Once again, he graded him out as a third round talent on his board. Sure, he threw in a caveat, but in the end, he graded him as a 3rd round talent based his observations, not based on where he would be drafted.

JDub15
01-19-2011, 02:06 PM
Once again, he graded him out as a third round talent on his board. Sure, he threw in a caveat, but in the end, he graded him as a 3rd round talent based his observations, not based on where he would be drafted.

Still - read the profile and you get the idea. His board is essentially where he would draft the player, not what "level of talent" he is at.

He said he would draft Elvis in the 3rd and he went in the 4th. So he would have drafted him perfectly without reaching based on public perception.

Regardless, you get the idea - this guy can profile players.

bronco0608
01-19-2011, 02:11 PM
Still - read the profile and you get the idea. His board is essentially where he would draft the player, not what "level of talent" he is at.

He said he would draft Elvis in the 3rd and he went in the 4th. So he would have drafted him perfectly without reaching based on public perception.

Regardless, you get the idea - this guy can profile players.

Of course they can. I have respect for all those guys. They all have hits and misses.

He loved Ayers and Beadles giving both of them first round grades. But to say one is better than the other is all a matter of personal preference.

In the end, they rate the guys about the same. Boylhart rips on Dorsey, but still gives him a 1st round grade. He hypes up Dumervil, but still gives him a 3rd round grade. In no way though he is head and shoulders better than the rest.

And by looking at his profiles, he is not that far off from others. Jamal Charles 3rd round talent? Why isn't he giving the kid a 1st round grade? That is where they all fail. I don't see any of them giving a guy with a mid round grade who they really believe in a 1st round grade when others don't.

JDub15
01-19-2011, 02:26 PM
Of course they can. I have respect for all those guys. They all have hits and misses.

He loved Ayers and Beadles giving both of them first round grades. But to say one is better than the other is all a matter of personal preference.

In the end, they rate the guys about the same. Boylhart rips on Dorsey, but still gives him a 1st round grade. He hypes up Dumervil, but still gives him a 3rd round grade. In no way though he is head and shoulders better than the rest.

And by looking at his profiles, he is not that far off from others. Jamal Charles 3rd round talent? Why isn't he giving the kid a 1st round grade? That is where they all fail. I don't see any of them giving a guy with a mid round grade who they really believe in a 1st round grade when others don't.

So he's more accurate but he's not better? Okay :)

He did hype up Beadles and Ayers, for Ayers he was assuming he would be a 4-3 DE and never even mentioned him as a 3-4 OLB. So hard to say if he is right or wrong on Ayers.

For Beadles, he did play well at LG but terrible at RT. He did mention Beadles should be put at LG in his profile.

I'll give you that he's hit or miss on QBs...

Broncos_OTM
01-19-2011, 03:15 PM
Deadhead your retarded. The game is won and lost in the trenchea amd if you cant see thay your retardes

OABB
01-19-2011, 03:57 PM
Deadhead your retarded. The game is won and lost in the trenchea amd if you cant see thay your retardes

are you French?

Chris
01-19-2011, 04:06 PM
no ur retardeststest.

Dedhed
01-19-2011, 08:01 PM
Going by dedhed's logic, he would have taken Eric Berry over Suh last year because DBs don't bust.
Try reading some other threads, or try reading this one with an ounce of comprehension.

I've said over and over that in every draft there are 1-2 franchise players, and it's moronic to pass on them if they fit into your system/needs at all. I used Suh and Bradford as an example last year.

Peterson is the only franchise defender I see in this class. Green is the only other franchise payer I see, but he clearly doesn't fit a need at all.

Dedhed
01-19-2011, 08:03 PM
Deadhead your retarded. The game is won and lost in the trenchea amd if you cant see thay your retardes

Wow. I'm just gonna use this as a case against itself.

iforgotmypassword
01-19-2011, 10:23 PM
I don't think the Boom or Bust arguement can work for Denver fans anymore.... we don't need a "quality guy" with less bust potential. We need a ****ing Boom. We need a playmaker.

BowlenBall
01-19-2011, 10:43 PM
Deadhead your retarded. The game is won and lost in the trenchea amd if you cant see thay your retardes

I'd like to nominate this post for the OM Hall of Fame....

OABB
01-19-2011, 10:48 PM
I'd like to nominate this post for the OM Hall of Fame....

I have to agree. It's foneco worthy.

ZONA
01-19-2011, 10:50 PM
I'd love to see this line on passing downs...

DE Doom
DT Ayers
DT Bannan
DE Bowers

That's fine, until the other teams runs the ball. Then that lineup would be absolutely thrown around.

CHANGSTER
01-19-2011, 10:56 PM
Deadhead your retarded. The game is won and lost in the trenchea amd if you cant see thay your retardes

:lombardi:

bronco0608
01-19-2011, 11:46 PM
Try reading some other threads, or try reading this one with an ounce of comprehension.

I've said over and over that in every draft there are 1-2 franchise players, and it's moronic to pass on them if they fit into your system/needs at all. I used Suh and Bradford as an example last year.

Peterson is the only franchise defender I see in this class. Green is the only other franchise payer I see, but he clearly doesn't fit a need at all.

Just for the record,, who do you see as franchise players in this draft?

bronco0608
01-19-2011, 11:49 PM
That's fine, until the other teams runs the ball. Then that lineup would be absolutely thrown around.

Don't think so. Ayers is a stud at run defense. This much i know.

And from all accounts, Bowers is a stud run defender.

Dedhed
01-20-2011, 07:50 AM
Just for the record,, who do you see as franchise players in this draft?

Are you seriously this unable to read? Look at the post that this is in response to, READ it all the way to the end, then say "doh", and see if you can come up with a question that doesn't make you look like a fool.

I know that's a difficult thing for a twelve year old to accomplish, but if you're going to ask questions that are clearly answered in the post, I'm not going to waste any more time in a discussion with you.

loborugger
01-20-2011, 07:54 AM
Deadhead your retarded. The game is won and lost in the trenchea amd if you cant see thay your retardes

Gonna pile on here a bit...

Is that you Mock?

Tombstone RJ
01-20-2011, 09:16 AM
Here's a list of the DBs taken high in the first round since 2000. I included all top 10 picks, and in the event there was no DB taken in the top 10, I included the first DB off the board. I did not include anyone taken outside of the top 15.

Joe Haden-Shaky start, but improved a great deal.
Eric Berry-Unfortunately looks like a stud in the making.
Darelle Revis-Top 5 defender in league
Laron Landry-Solid, but a little disappointing
Malcolm Jenkins-Very Solid
Leodis McKelvin-Very Solid
Michael Huff-Very Solid
Donte Whitner-Solid
Pacman Jones-Stud on the field, douche off it.
Antrelle Rolle-Very Solid
Carlos Rogers-Very Solid
Deangelo Hall-Very Solid
Dunta Robinson- Stud
Terrance Newman-Very Good
Quentin Jammer-Very Solid
Roy Williams-Solid starter, but a little disappointing overall
Deltha O'neal-Way to go Shanny, you managed to pick the only true bust on the board!

Not really a "Bust" on the list other than Deltha, who absolutely no one had as a first round talent.

O'Neal was not a true bust, he had some productive years for the Broncos and Cincy, that being said, Shanny managed to pick (arguably) the weakest DB on the list.

bronco0608
01-20-2011, 09:23 AM
Are you seriously this unable to read? Look at the post that this is in response to, READ it all the way to the end, then say "doh", and see if you can come up with a question that doesn't make you look like a fool.

I know that's a difficult thing for a twelve year old to accomplish, but if you're going to ask questions that are clearly answered in the post, I'm not going to waste any more time in a discussion with you.

Jesus, bitter about life much? Things didn't work out the way you wanted them to? Feel better about yourself when you call others dumb?

Hope it works out for yourself, bud. You are one bitter, angry internet dude.

Let it out here, though. You know you aren't able to do it real life.

listopencil
01-20-2011, 09:33 AM
Deltha O'neal-Way to go Shanny, you managed to pick the only true bust on the board!

Not really a "Bust" on the list other than Deltha, who absolutely no one had as a first round talent.



Holy ****, lol. That is uncanny.

listopencil
01-20-2011, 09:34 AM
Jesus, bitter about life much? Things didn't work out the way you wanted them to? Feel better about yourself when you call others dumb?

Hope it works out for yourself, bud. You are one bitter, angry internet dude.

Let it out here, though. You know you aren't able to do it real life.

Just give up. You got owned.

CEH
01-20-2011, 09:40 AM
Don't think so. Ayers is a stud at run defense. This much i know.

And from all accounts, Bowers is a stud run defender.

I would disagree. Unless his foot injury had something to do with his play last year he routinely got blocked down into the line and gave up the edge a ton.

Jury is way still out on Ayers .

Maybe it was an oversight by Wink but post season press conference for the media he failed to metion Ayers when asked about players next year who could be your core group

Dedhed
01-20-2011, 10:00 AM
Jesus, bitter about life much? Things didn't work out the way you wanted them to? Feel better about yourself when you call others dumb?

Hope it works out for yourself, bud. You are one bitter, angry internet dude.

Let it out here, though. You know you aren't able to do it real life.
Hey, if you have to imagine me like that to comfort yourself, I won't begrudge you.

I really have as little interest in what you think of me as I do in how stoked you are about a player because Mel Kiper thinks he's good.

Mediator12
01-20-2011, 11:22 AM
A great safety can help you stop the run, CB not so much. Certainly they won't have the impact a front-7 player will have. If you have good pass defense and need to improve run defense, then sure draft a front-7 guy. If you want a better pass defense, simply take the best pass rusher or DB, whichever you think is a better player, both will help.

Remember, pass offense is more important than run offense and pass defense is more important than run defense.

Pittsburgh pass defense in 2009 sans Troy P: ranked 14 (according to footballoutsiders)

Pittsburgh pass defense in 2010 with Troy: ranked 2

While good coverage can help pass rush, it's more likely to have a positive effect on pass defense overall, which isn't necessarily correlated with pass rush.


The main problem is that defenses are constructed from the line back from scheme. Every scheme starts with how many DL are on the front 3 or 4 in the base pacakge. Every defensive scheme is designed around the front and run protection first and then the pass protection. If your front seven can not effectively control the run gaps, then you have to tilt the defense away from pass coverage and make it more unbalanced. This is where people are missing the point. The DL is so important because they directly affect the play every snap of the ball. DB's are irrelevant over half the plays run on defense by either being avoided in the passing game or not run at directly.

The best DB's do help, but are nowhere near as effective unless you have a stud Front seven. You can not play pass defense as well, unless you stop the damn run first either. Teams that have balance are much harder to defend than one dimensional teams, especially over the course of the season and with tape.

You can mention Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu until you are blue in the face, and if you leave out the fact that they have top 5 front 7's playing in front of them you miss the point entirely. They were added to existing top 5 defenses and top 5 front seven's when they were drafted. This is what has helped keep them Elite defenses, they have a playmaker at every level and that makes it that much harder to exploit weaknesses as an OC. The DB is the icing on the cake, not the foundation.

As for Dedhed's take on Early DB's selected in the draft, he severely overrates a lot of those DB's. Roy Williams is a situational safety because he can not Cover. Dunta Robinson never became the CB HOU thought he would be and was not retained, even though they needed him badly. Quentin Jammer took years to mature in SD with a lethal front seven in front of him. Terrance Newman and Marcus Trufant have been solid, but not game changers. Deangelo Hall has been a horribly inconsistent CB who struggles to play zone coverage. Carlos Rogers was widely considered an underachiever in WAS for years and just now is becoming a solid player. Antrel Rolle was moved to safety because he could not cover NFL WR's and even then ARI let him go to FA and the NYG's. Donte Whitner and Michael Huff have both struggled without elite Front Sevens in front of them (not really a surprise there). Huff has rebounded as TEN's defense got better up front this year.

The only one who is an Allpro is Revis and Deltha has as many probowl selections as any of the other CB's! None of the other guys are playmakers. The others, outside of Revis, have been underwhelming to date. None of those elite DB's came in and changed the complexion of their respective defenses right away either or more importantly in the long haul. The closest was Roy Williams as a box safety until teams learned how to scheme him out and make him a liability in coverage. 6 out of 9 of those guys are not with the team that drafted them after their first contract expired either. That says enough to me as to their worth in drafting them in the top half of the draft. 1 allpro out of 10 that can be graded yet is not what I want out of drafting a DB in the top 15 of the draft ;D

The whole issue here is HOW you build a team, not who you should draft based on overall grades. If DEN had a real front seven, then we would not be in a position to draft a talent like Peterson. BAL, PIT, AND INDY did not draft their Stud DB's until they had a Quality DL in front of them. Plus, Bob Sanders can not stay on the field for INDY and Polamalu and Reed also have missed a lot of time for their teams.

The biggest problem here is making simplistic arguments that sound good, but miss the point entirely. For all those drafted players in the top 15, only 50% of them ever become playmakers at the next level. Way too many guys bust for all kinds of reasons. However, I wish DEN were in the situation to take a risk on a guy like Peterson, because then we would know they were already OK on defense. However, they lack talent all along the front seven with only one playmaker in Dumervil. They need a few more there before they can take the luxury of taking a DB #2 overall IMHO.

Requiem
01-20-2011, 01:49 PM
Indianapolis front four (starters) has one high selection on it, Dwight Freeney. The others are middle to late round players who fit well because they have a strong scheme. Muir, Johnson, everyone else not named Jerry Hughes (last on depth chart, BTW). Not the best example of a team to use if you are going to illustrate putting a preference on quality DL players or building from the front back.

I guess your point was, after they had their good pass rushers (Freeney/Mathis) then they started addressing the DB. Though, I more or less look at it as an example of a team who got a lot out of their DL, despite most of them not being high round selections.

I'm all about getting quality DL, I just worry about immediate impact and bust rates. I do agree that he overrated most of those DB's, but the laundry list of DL who were awesome in college and went bunk going pro is just as worse if not even more.

Denver has a lot of mobility moving into the draft. We have four selections in the top seventy and have the ability to move up or down. At the end of the day, I want a player who is going to come in and make a difference on the team, whether it is on the field by his play or by his leadership on and off of it. I see a lot of qualities in Peterson that would make him a great pro for us.

I think you even acknowledge Mediator, that this rebuild on defense will not be done in a year.

This is a superb class of DL, so I can understand your hunger to get the best of who is available. However, I see need in our DB and DL -- look at the weaker class of DB (outside a few junior safeties and corners, only a few seniors) and kind of would prefer to go for Peterson based on that.

We have the ability to move back up in the first and get one of the highest graded DL available. Some of the most respectable outlets and scouting services preliminarily have 8-10 names as possible first round selections on the DL. Some even more.

I want quality at every selection. Ignoring DL @ #2 doesn't mean we can't find upgrades elsewhere. As I stated, four early picks. I'd like to keep them all, Hell, I'd like to accumulate more. I think that any of the choices have the potential to be starters. If Denver were to grab Peterson @ #2 -- I'd like to see them trade back up into round one and get one of the best DL guys available. I'm sure you are familiar with some of the names.

Are Bowers/Fairley/Dareus that much better of options than the other people who are considered in the first round mix with them? Dareus, IMHO, is probably the most balanced lineman who can help us out of any of them.

New coaches, new defense, new scheme. We have to start somewhere. The blueprint moving forward is wide-open. I just want some great defensive players.

Popps
01-20-2011, 02:03 PM
However, I wish DEN were in the situation to take a risk on a guy like Peterson, because then we would know they were already OK on defense. However, they lack talent all along the front seven with only one playmaker in Dumervil. They need a few more there before they can take the luxury of taking a DB #2 overall IMHO.

I just can't imagine anyone not understanding this logic, at this point.

Tombstone RJ
01-20-2011, 02:14 PM
I just can't imagine anyone not understanding this logic, at this point.

Its sound logic IF there is a DT worth taking at the #2 overall pick. At this point and time (before the combine and in depth player analysis by watching hours and hours of film and interviewing the players, etc.) it does not "appear" that there is a rock-solid-can't-miss-come-in-and-dominate-now-blue-chip DT in this draft. Plus, the Broncos don't even know what base formation they want to go with (34 or 43). Add in the fact that DT busts are more common than CB busts, one can make a "reasonable" argument to go ahead and take Peterson rather than a DT.

Everyone knows the Broncos greatest need is DT but what some people are saying is that right now, the entire defense needs help and if Peterson can help and be the next "Revis" or "Bailey" then it may make sense to go ahead and take the guy rather than gambling on a DT, especially if you can get a good or similar talented DT later in the draft.

You add all that up and you see where some people are coming from.

BroncoInferno
01-20-2011, 02:20 PM
I just can't imagine anyone not understanding this logic, at this point.

The problem is that you guys are looking at the #2 pick in a vacuum. The personnel issues in the past have not been strickly picking too many DBs early. The problem has been 1) ignoring the DL almost completely thoughout the years on draft day, not just isolating the 1st round and 2) making mediocre to poor selections when we did draft DBs. It's not like Foxworth became an All-Pro when he got on the Ravens. If we were to draft Peterson at #2 and then follow up by taking a TE and running back in round 2, then, yes, that would be a terrible mistake. BUT, as Req alluded to, this is a VERY deep class for DL and pretty weak in terms of depth at DB. So, you can take Peterson at #2 and still have some very nice prospects to pick from in the 2nd round. If you take a DL at #2, though, the DB prospects in round 2 are pretty underwhelming. I'll be happy if we take Fairley or Bowers at #2, but I will be happy about Peterson as well so long as we address the DL in the 2nd. You can't be so myopic and look at things in a vacuum.

TheChamp24
01-20-2011, 04:17 PM
The problem is that you guys are looking at the #2 pick in a vacuum. The personnel issues in the past have not been strickly picking too many DBs early. The problem has been 1) ignoring the DL almost completely thoughout the years on draft day, not just isolating the 1st round and 2) making mediocre to poor selections when we did draft DBs. It's not like Foxworth became an All-Pro when he got on the Ravens. If we were to draft Peterson at #2 and then follow up by taking a TE and running back in round 2, then, yes, that would be a terrible mistake. BUT, as Req alluded to, this is a VERY deep class for DL and pretty weak in terms of depth at DB. So, you can take Peterson at #2 and still have some very nice prospects to pick from in the 2nd round. If you take a DL at #2, though, the DB prospects in round 2 are pretty underwhelming. I'll be happy if we take Fairley or Bowers at #2, but I will be happy about Peterson as well so long as we address the DL in the 2nd. You can't be so myopic and look at things in a vacuum.

This is how I feel.
I said earlier we could definitely take Peterson at #2 and in round 2 get solid DL prospects. To me, we need more impact at DT, and Fairley I highly question, so yeah.

Mediator12
01-20-2011, 06:22 PM
The problem is that you guys are looking at the #2 pick in a vacuum. The personnel issues in the past have not been strickly picking too many DBs early. The problem has been 1) ignoring the DL almost completely thoughout the years on draft day, not just isolating the 1st round and 2) making mediocre to poor selections when we did draft DBs. It's not like Foxworth became an All-Pro when he got on the Ravens. If we were to draft Peterson at #2 and then follow up by taking a TE and running back in round 2, then, yes, that would be a terrible mistake. BUT, as Req alluded to, this is a VERY deep class for DL and pretty weak in terms of depth at DB. So, you can take Peterson at #2 and still have some very nice prospects to pick from in the 2nd round. If you take a DL at #2, though, the DB prospects in round 2 are pretty underwhelming. I'll be happy if we take Fairley or Bowers at #2, but I will be happy about Peterson as well so long as we address the DL in the 2nd. You can't be so myopic and look at things in a vacuum.

Actually, it is the opposite. I am not looking at things in a vacuum, in fact I may be one of the only ones looking at the whole team and most importantly a rebuild. The vacuum point of view says we need everything, and we need several years to get there, so just take the BPA. The DB point of view is also assuming that Peterson will be the BPA. I have talked with several people who do not concur and think Bowers or Fairley will be on par or graded higher than Peterson. The problem right now is that these are all juniors we are talking about and they do not have all they need to grade them until all the scouts finish the All-star bowls evals.

Yes, Peterson is a great player, yes DB's who are picked higher actually get more chances to perform than DL who can not handle it every play, and Yes some teams will rate him higher than the DL. However, assuming he will stay the Top player graded is just an assumption.

Again, picking at #2 means you have a ton of leverage in this draft, especially if the draft happens before FA with the CBA not fixed. What I want to see is a top DL selected from that #2 pick whether its @ #2 or a trade down plus picks. The top selection in this deep DL draft has to be a Top tier guy, not a third tier DL guy. We have plenty of those solid starter types, but not playmakers. Will they get him picking that early? Well, past performance says there is a 50/50 chance. We do not need potential starter type DL, we need a potential all-pro DL first then another swing for a better starter later.

The risk of taking a DB that high is that you miss all the high quality DL this year and are forced to address DL in a mediocre DL class next year. Kind of like the DL draft of 2007 with Moss, Crowder, and Thomas. Not a good year for DL, but they invested their whole draft on a bunch of high Upside developmental prospects. And, it was a disaster. You have to pick DL now to develop for several years down the road, or your still selecting DL next year and pushing back the development of the DL even further.

This is going to be a process. Can it be done in a year, yes. However, it is more likely to take 2 and I want 2 rather than 3 because we get the difference makers to develop now, not next year. Selecting Peterson stunts picking a Top Tier DL in this draft unless the rest of the league is dumb, which they are not. The DL should have 12 players selected in the first round and that means we are already in the third tier of DL by the second round. Yes, we can move back up, but then we forfeit picks to get there during a rebuild. Which is absurd.

So, let's play this out. We take Peterson, use 36 and 67 to get back into the late first at 28 and select Who. Who is going to be left that late in the first who is worth moving up to take? We do not Know, but all the second tier guys will be gone IMHO and you are forced to chase a Allen Bailey or Corey Liuget who you just might have a chance to get with 36. That is not good enough for me, not with a legit chance for once to get a playmaker on the DL if they go 4-3 which all indications say they will.

Popps
01-20-2011, 06:46 PM
Actually, it is the opposite. I am not looking at things in a vacuum, in fact I may be one of the only ones looking at the whole team and most importantly a rebuild.

Couldn't agree more. As far as I'm concerned, I'd rather have a B grade DT or DE as opposed to an A+ CB with this pick.

An elite CB is a luxury afforded to teams with solid front sevens.

If the value isn't there, trade down somehow. But, don't take a low-impact player just for the sake of taking a talented guy. That's just giving up, imo.

I'd honestly rather we just traded out of the first round this year completely rather than dumping a pick on a corner.

Requiem
01-20-2011, 09:05 PM
Nothing wrong with Liuget as a prospect. Will probably do more in the NFL than Fairley.

Mediator12
01-21-2011, 07:50 AM
Nothing wrong with Liuget as a prospect. Will probably do more in the NFL than Fairley.

It's possible, but I doubt it. I like Liuget, he is a good prospect, but why settle? Why settle when you finally have a chance to get the Stud you need on the DL? Why get the guy who is a good all around player, when you can get the guy with ELITE pass rushing and disruptive running game skills?

Personally, I think Liuget will move up boards once the workouts are done too. I see him as a top 28 guy right now and a lot of seniors are going to be second rounders IMHO with this class.

The thing about Fairley is people do not want to be wrong in their eval. The kid has elite getoff and explosion coming out of College. You can not teach that, you can refine it, but you can not create it when its not there. His technique has improved, his awareness has improved, and he destroys gap control from the 3 tech. Too many people call him a one year wonder, because they do not see the progression. He might fail at the next level due to the mental aspect of playing DL, but his tenacity and fight do not show that on the field. The kid wants to succeed, he wants to be the best player at his position. You can see that on the film. He takes it personally, and sometimes he takes it too far.

I compare Fairley to Warren Sapp, except he has better physical tools than Sapp did coming out. They have the same attitude and game. Put Fairley in a one gap penetrating scheme and he will pay dividends right away. Put him as a 5 technique and watch him fail like Glenn Dorsey in KC. Sapp was not multi-dimensional either people, you have to play a DL to his strengths or he will be just another body on the DL.

Ray Finkle
01-21-2011, 07:55 AM
It's possible, but I doubt it. I like Liuget, he is a good prospect, but why settle? Why settle when you finally have a chance to get the Stud you need on the DL? Why get the guy who is a good all around player, when you can get the guy with ELITE pass rushing and disruptive running game skills?

Personally, I think Liuget will move up boards once the workouts are done too. I see him as a top 28 guy right now and a lot of seniors are going to be second rounders IMHO with this class.

The thing about Fairley is people do not want to be wrong in their eval. The kid has elite getoff and explosion coming out of College. You can not teach that, you can refine it, but you can not create it when its not there. His technique has improved, his awareness has improved, and he destroys gap control from the 3 tech. Too many people call him a one year wonder, because they do not see the progression. He might fail at the next level due to the mental aspect of playing DL, but his tenacity and fight do not show that on the field. The kid wants to succeed, he wants to be the best player at his position. You can see that on the film. He takes it personally, and sometimes he takes it too far.

I compare Fairley to Warren Sapp, except he has better physical tools than Sapp did coming out. They have the same attitude and game. Put Fairley in a one gap penetrating scheme and he will pay dividends right away. Put him as a 5 technique and watch him fail like Glenn Dorsey in KC. Sapp was not multi-dimensional either people, you have to play a DL to his strengths or he will be just another body on the DL.

assuming he goes #1, what would you do?

Chris
01-21-2011, 08:01 AM
In mediator we trust.

Mediator12
01-21-2011, 08:06 AM
assuming he goes #1, what would you do?

Move back. In fact, I like Moving back to get Dareus and another second tier DL as much as trying to get Fairley and a third tier DL. I do not like having to move up, unless they use their first from next year and keep what they have this year. This is an amazingly deep Draft, and the perfect one to have 4 picks in the top 67. I would be OK moving back and acquiring more picks to maneuver to get the players they want.

Chris
01-21-2011, 08:08 AM
Move back. In fact, I like Moving back to get Dareus and another second tier DL as much as trying to get Fairley and a third tier DL. I do not like having to move up, unless they use their first from next year and keep what they have this year. This is an amazingly deep Draft, and the perfect one to have 4 picks in the top 67. I would be OK moving back and acquiring more picks to maneuver to get the players they want.

Who do you think we could partner with? What possible scenarios do you see?

Dedhed
01-21-2011, 08:35 AM
A great safety can help you stop the run, CB not so much.

I think that having great CBs helps you in the run more than having a great safety does.

Great play at corner allows you to commit at least one safety to the box to support the run.

2005 is the perfect example, when we had a CB opposite Champ who was at least serviceable. Lynch played within 5 yards of the LOS almost the entire year. We basically played a 4-4 scheme that year with Lynch as an extra Backer more than a safety.

We were only able to do that because of the CBs.

It's the same attack that the Jets just used to shut down the Pats. They left the edges of the field entirely to Revis and Cromartie and used everyone else to clog the short middle of the field where the Pats destroy teams.

Rohirrim
01-21-2011, 09:09 AM
I think that having Fairley and Bannan/Vickerson in the middle and Ayers and Doom on the ends gives you an immediate, scary ass line (to use the technical term). And pick up another DE or DT at the top of the second as well. Suddenly, the entire backfield is improved.

gunns
01-21-2011, 09:35 AM
Mike shanahan?

That was good! :thumbsup:

gunns
01-21-2011, 09:38 AM
I think that having Fairley and Bannan/Vickerson in the middle and Ayers and Doom on the ends gives you an immediate, scary ass line (to use the technical term). And pick up another DE or DT at the top of the second as well. Suddenly, the entire backfield is improved.

While I agree that DL is the priority and this line sounds damn good the other position that we keep neglecting and only occasionally stick in a player at the end of the rope and that is safety. I would **** my pants if the Denver Broncos picked up a quality DLineman and a quality safety. I would be watching for the world to come to an end.

bronco0608
01-21-2011, 10:57 AM
It's the same attack that the Jets just used to shut down the Pats. They left the edges of the field entirely to Revis and Cromartie and used everyone else to clog the short middle of the field where the Pats destroy teams.

No, the Jets played zone a majority of the game, not the man-to-man Brady and the Pats expected.

Brady said that he came into the game expecting the Jets to play more of a man-to-man defense as they did in the first two meetings and was surprised by how much zone they introduced.

http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2011/01/jets_secondary_left_tom_brady.html

bronco0608
01-21-2011, 11:04 AM
It's possible, but I doubt it. I like Liuget, he is a good prospect, but why settle? Why settle when you finally have a chance to get the Stud you need on the DL? Why get the guy who is a good all around player, when you can get the guy with ELITE pass rushing and disruptive running game skills?



You could say the same thing about Peterson. Why waste the 2nd overall pick on Peterson, when you could grab Aaron Williams or Jimmy Smith in the 2nd round? Everyone keeps assuming Peterson is a can't miss prospect when he has the same grade as Bowers and Fairley.

We were last in the league in rushing defense and sacks. When you are 32 out 32 in front seven stats, its pretty much safe to say you need to address those positions early and often.

TheChamp24
01-21-2011, 12:53 PM
Move back. In fact, I like Moving back to get Dareus and another second tier DL as much as trying to get Fairley and a third tier DL. I do not like having to move up, unless they use their first from next year and keep what they have this year. This is an amazingly deep Draft, and the perfect one to have 4 picks in the top 67. I would be OK moving back and acquiring more picks to maneuver to get the players they want.

I'd honestly disagree with you there, because it isn't amazingly deep.
Last year was deep, this year it is not. If we trade our 1st next year I'll be pissed because I see us being at best 6-10.
One thing I don't like is all the talk about moving back to get more picks. Stay where we are and draft the damn elite player we need, whether it be Fairley, Bowers or Peterson. We don't need quantity, we need quality.

And I still question Fairley because of his motor, and his character. You compare him to Sapp, which may be true, but will Fairley want to win like Sapp, or will he be like Moss and milk it every so often?

Requiem
01-21-2011, 12:58 PM
The draft is deep at certain positions, very weak in others. The juniors (record level) declaring certainly helps. The senior talent was void almost everywhere, but there are a lot of solid options in our first 67 selections.

BroncoInferno
01-21-2011, 01:00 PM
I think that having Fairley and Bannan/Vickerson in the middle and Ayers and Doom on the ends gives you an immediate, scary ass line (to use the technical term). And pick up another DE or DT at the top of the second as well. Suddenly, the entire backfield is improved.

Don't forget about Marcus Thomas. I am VERY interested to see what he can do in a scheme that utilizes his strengths. He's improved every year, but has never had the opportunity to play in a defense that allows him to play to his strengths. When he was drafted out of Florida, he was thought to fit best in a one-gap, penetrating scheme. But he has not had the chance to play in that style of defense since he was drafted. He is still young and has improved each year even without playing in a scheme that really suits him, so we could see him blossom this season. I'm curious to know Med's thoughts on him.

Kaylore
01-21-2011, 01:08 PM
The draft is deep at certain positions, very weak in others. The juniors (record level) declaring certainly helps. The senior talent was void almost everywhere, but there are a lot of solid options in our first 67 selections.

Sort of off topic, but I can't for the life of me understand why so many Juniors declared. They have to know that the pay is going to be slotted more strictly this year and with a looming lockout, I know I'd go back to school and polish my game. It's very counter-intuitive.

CEH
01-21-2011, 01:15 PM
Sort of off topic, but I can't for the life of me understand why so many Juniors declared. They have to know that the pay is going to be slotted more strictly this year and with a looming lockout, I know I'd go back to school and polish my game. It's very counter-intuitive.

Why most of these guys are only in school to get to the NFL.

4 things might happen if they go back and 3 are bad or have zero effect on their '10 draft status. Either they maintain their draft position, increase thier draft postion , decrease their draft postion or get injured

bronco0608
01-21-2011, 01:15 PM
Sort of off topic, but I can't for the life of me understand why so many Juniors declared. They have to know that the pay is going to be slotted more strictly this year and with a looming lockout, I know I'd go back to school and polish my game. It's very counter-intuitive.

Because the owners are trying to implement a rookie cap for future drafts which will severely limit what players can earn as opposed to what they are getting now. Just like the NBA rookie cap.

They want the first pick to get, for example, a 6 year, 30 million dollar contract (higher for QBs) and each pick after gets a lot less thereafter.

Luck, for instance, probably cost himself 25-40 million dollars by staying at Stanford.

BroncoInferno
01-21-2011, 01:22 PM
Because the owners are trying to implement a rookie cap for future drafts which will severely limit what players can earn as opposed to what they are getting now. Just like the NBA rookie cap.

They want the first pick to get, for example, a 6 year, 30 million dollar contract (higher for QBs) and each pick after gets a lot less thereafter.

Luck, for instance, probably cost himself 25-40 million dollars by staying at Stanford.

Yeah, but any rookie salary cap will be in place for this years draft picks as well. None of them will be able to sign a contract until the new CBA is in place.

BroncoInferno
01-21-2011, 01:25 PM
Sort of off topic, but I can't for the life of me understand why so many Juniors declared. They have to know that the pay is going to be slotted more strictly this year and with a looming lockout, I know I'd go back to school and polish my game. It's very counter-intuitive.

To answer this question, a rookie cap certainly didn't do anything to deter players from jumping early to the NBA. For one thing, a lot of these guys come from poor backgrounds, so even within the restrictions of a rookie cap the money would still be atrractive. Another reason is probably the sooner they get started, the sooner their rookie contract will expire so they can get veteran pay.

bendog
01-21-2011, 01:41 PM
it's not like they won't get paid under a scale. It's just that with the old system of a rookie pool for each team, it was based on the overall salary cap which expanded every year, so rookie contracts were set to increase at least as fast as the overall cap. Inevitably that means that a guy who was a rookie five years ago and is looking to his free agency years, is going to be making a lot less than a guy who just got drafted.

Tombstone RJ
01-21-2011, 01:46 PM
To answer this question, a rookie cap certainly didn't do anything to deter players from jumping early to the NBA. For one thing, a lot of these guys come from poor backgrounds, so even within the restrictions of a rookie cap the money would still be atrractive. Another reason is probably the sooner they get started, the sooner their rookie contract will expire so they can get veteran pay.

plus, the immediately go all gangsta... :thumbs:

Rohirrim
01-21-2011, 02:06 PM
Don't forget about Marcus Thomas. I am VERY interested to see what he can do in a scheme that utilizes his strengths. He's improved every year, but has never had the opportunity to play in a defense that allows him to play to his strengths. When he was drafted out of Florida, he was thought to fit best in a one-gap, penetrating scheme. But he has not had the chance to play in that style of defense since he was drafted. He is still young and has improved each year even without playing in a scheme that really suits him, so we could see him blossom this season. I'm curious to know Med's thoughts on him.

True. I'm still in the MT fan club. If we do go with a 4/3 base and draft Fairley, he would also be in the mix. It shows that the addition of one top level player, like Fairley, would upgrade the entire unit. I have always thought that a players impact can be exponential. If, like Med says, Fairley has Sapp (or better) skills, the entire unit gets much better quick. The minute an Oline starts double teaming Fairley, they have to deal with Doom, or Ayers, or MT. We could pick up another good quality Dlineman in the second, and maybe another good LB in FA. It's not too much to expect.

Mediator12
01-21-2011, 02:50 PM
I'd honestly disagree with you there, because it isn't amazingly deep.
Last year was deep, this year it is not. If we trade our 1st next year I'll be pissed because I see us being at best 6-10.
One thing I don't like is all the talk about moving back to get more picks. Stay where we are and draft the damn elite player we need, whether it be Fairley, Bowers or Peterson. We don't need quantity, we need quality.

And I still question Fairley because of his motor, and his character. You compare him to Sapp, which may be true, but will Fairley want to win like Sapp, or will he be like Moss and milk it every so often?

It is amazingly deep on defense, screw the offense ;D

What knocks does Fairley have on either his motor or his character that are football character concerns? I am still waiting to hear about these, because the kid showed a ton of stamina in the NCG and motor. He also showed he could be stupid with that facemask foul, but that is easily correctable. I like his edge, I like his effort, and I like his progression the last 2 years.

You have to remember, he played JUCO for a year before coming to Auburn and needed to have a first year to adjust from Juco to SEC play. He made it in the second year. This is not a kid with a Robert Ayers NCAA progression. His progression is steady and solid and what you would expect from a talent like Fairley. He is not your typical one year wonder type. He absolutely dominated like Suh did his Senior year, without several years under his belt.

I like Fairley because he has an old school mentality, mean and Nasty on the Line. Exactly what Fox will want from his new DL. CAR was nasty in their DL play, but never the same without Kris Jenkins. I like Fairley's fit with the type of Defense Fox has played in the past, he will fit right in.

TheReverend
01-21-2011, 03:35 PM
It is amazingly deep on defense, screw the offense ;D

What knocks does Fairley have on either his motor or his character that are football character concerns? I am still waiting to hear about these, because the kid showed a ton of stamina in the NCG and motor. He also showed he could be stupid with that facemask foul, but that is easily correctable. I like his edge, I like his effort, and I like his progression the last 2 years.

You have to remember, he played JUCO for a year before coming to Auburn and needed to have a first year to adjust from Juco to SEC play. He made it in the second year. This is not a kid with a Robert Ayers NCAA progression. His progression is steady and solid and what you would expect from a talent like Fairley. He is not your typical one year wonder type. He absolutely dominated like Suh did his Senior year, without several years under his belt.

I like Fairley because he has an old school mentality, mean and Nasty on the Line. Exactly what Fox will want from his new DL. CAR was nasty in their DL play, but never the same without Kris Jenkins. I like Fairley's fit with the type of Defense Fox has played in the past, he will fit right in.

Ugh, I love Fairley, but no way is he another Suh. He's a much closer parallel to Tyson Jackson.

Chris
01-21-2011, 03:45 PM
I think Ndamukong Suh is colouring the argument here because he was drafted so recently. It's impossible to predict but we're probably not going to get another guy like that for a while. Just something I thought I'd point out.

gyldenlove
01-21-2011, 04:35 PM
I think Ndamukong Suh is colouring the argument here because he was drafted so recently. It's impossible to predict but we're probably not going to get another guy like that for a while. Just something I thought I'd point out.

Suh was different, he was a legit Heisman trophy candidate, Fairley isn't. Suh put up numbers that were beyond unreal for a DT who often got double teamed.

I like Fairley, I worry about his work ethic and I worry he is not nearly as ready to handle fortune and fame as he should be, but ultimately I think he is a very talented player who with the right coaching can be outstanding in the NFL.

HooptyHoops
01-21-2011, 04:35 PM
All this talk of Suh, yet, I think a better comparison of Fairley is Dorsey....Dorsey was a dominating player in college, much like Fairley....Suh, this year is just all by himself at the top, as most DL take a few years to get going and Suh dominated in his 1st year. I do think Fairley could be great, but only if he is put in the right scheme.

Dedhed
01-21-2011, 04:50 PM
All this talk of Suh, yet, I think a better comparison of Fairley is Dorsey....Dorsey was a dominating player in college, much like Fairley....Suh, this year is just all by himself at the top, as most DL take a few years to get going and Suh dominated in his 1st year. I do think Fairley could be great, but only if he is put in the right scheme.

Dorsey is a far more apt comparison than Suh. Anyone thinking the Broncos have a chance to get a player like Suh in this year's draft just aren't dealing with reality.

bronco0608
01-21-2011, 08:19 PM
Dorsey is a far more apt comparison than Suh. Anyone thinking the Broncos have a chance to get a player like Suh in this year's draft just aren't dealing with reality.

And you know this how? :rofl:

Nick Fairley had 12 sacks as a junior this year in the SEC. Suh, for all his prowess, had 12 sacks as a 5th year senior in the Big 12.

They are both roughly 6'5 310 pounds.

Glenn Dorsey is 6'1" tall and had 7 sacks his senior year.

Fairley is arguably the best player in this year's draft (look at everyone's draft board, whoever you follow). Its not like Fairely is the 10th overall player.

Also, there were always questions about Dorsey's motor. They said he had the talent, but did he take too many plays off? No one ever questioned Suh on this, and no one is questioning Fairley's motor either.

So how is there a comparision Fairley and Dorsey? One guy was 4 inches shorter, had inferior college stats, and had a questionable motor.

bronco0608
01-21-2011, 08:38 PM
In Suh's third year at Nebraska, he had a grand total of one sack and twenty solo tackles. That's right. Fairley had 12 sacks and 24.5 tackles for loss in his third year of college.