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tsiguy96
01-18-2011, 11:45 AM
WOW. Didnt see this coming, seattle had a decent year especially piling it on the saints.


michaelombardi
Jeremey Bates Offensive Coordinator of Seattle just fired

Giving caps a try :strong::afro:

BroncosMT
01-18-2011, 11:46 AM
wow....that is a shocker....

HooptyHoops
01-18-2011, 11:48 AM
Crazy! So, is McDaniels or Bates going to be hired this year for an OC position?

lostknight
01-18-2011, 11:48 AM
Wow. Good Googly Moogly. Didn't see that coming at all. Gotta be some story behind this. Given what they did last week against the Eagles, you gotta think that there is a personal reason at play.

Abqbronco
01-18-2011, 11:48 AM
wow....that is a shocker....

The caps or Bates getting fired?

tsiguy96
01-18-2011, 11:49 AM
The caps or Bates getting fired?

:sunshine:

Man-Goblin
01-18-2011, 11:50 AM
(Puts on tin foil hat)

Too much chatter with his butt buddy Cutler the week of the game?

(Takes off tin foil hat)<TAKES Hat Foil Tin Off>

BroncoBuff
01-18-2011, 11:50 AM
Very strange, he was Pete's guy.

And please no ... no Josh up here :pray:

Kaylore
01-18-2011, 11:51 AM
The caps or Bates getting fired?

Tsiguy finding the shift key AND starting a thread with a decent title. The end is near.

yerner
01-18-2011, 11:52 AM
It was that ugly beard that did him in.

Inkana7
01-18-2011, 11:53 AM
Noted Denver fan favorite Jeremy Bates? My monocle!

bronco militia
01-18-2011, 11:56 AM
someone had to take the fall for all those dropped passes

tsiguy96
01-18-2011, 11:57 AM
caps v2

May have found McD's new home, and if so I bet Bates is royally pissed. To be replaced by him in 2 consecutive NFL stops...

strafen
01-18-2011, 11:57 AM
This got scapegoat written all over it...

BroncosMT
01-18-2011, 11:58 AM
Very strange, he was Pete's guy.

And please no ... no Josh up here :pray:

I thought so as well....he brought him from USC and it felt like they worked well together

BMarsh615
01-18-2011, 11:58 AM
Bates will probably head to STL.

Kaylore
01-18-2011, 12:03 PM
Bubble screens a-plenty!

PRBronco
01-18-2011, 12:14 PM
Tsiguy finding the shift key AND starting a thread with a decent title. The end is near.

What's next, gcver2 using just one period?

TonyR
01-18-2011, 12:24 PM
Given what they did last week against the Eagles...

The Eagles?

Rohirrim
01-18-2011, 12:24 PM
I wonder if Pete Carroll will go after Norm Chow?

Tombstone RJ
01-18-2011, 12:28 PM
This is a bit suprising... perhaps it has something to do with the fact that Hasselbeck is being forced out too by Petey and he wants to go with a young QB and a new OC? Who knows...

OABB
01-18-2011, 12:30 PM
Cutler is gonna be mad. Better watch out Seattle.

TheReverend
01-18-2011, 12:31 PM
Ooooohhhh can't wait for the details on this one.

tsiguy96
01-18-2011, 12:31 PM
andddd were off

mortreport Chris Mortensen
Filed to ESPN: ow that Seahawks have Jeremy Bates in Seattle, Josh McDaniels has emerged as OC candidate. Same division as Rams.

Rohirrim
01-18-2011, 12:33 PM
In related news, Cutler's dad has turned in his playbook.

bowtown
01-18-2011, 12:36 PM
This got scapegoat written all over it...

Scapegoat for what? For Seattle making it to the playoffs in the first year under a new head coach, playing way over their heads to beat the world champions, and then finally coming back to earth and losing to a far superior Bear's team? Why would they need a scapegoat for that? They should all get raises. He got fired because he's not as good as many here think he is, despite the fact that Jay Cutler wanted to have babies with him.

Tombstone RJ
01-18-2011, 12:36 PM
In related news, Cutler's dad has turned in his playbook.

rep! ROFL!

gunns
01-18-2011, 12:40 PM
WOW. Didnt see this coming, seattle had a decent year especially piling it on the saints.


michaelombardi
Jeremey Bates Offensive Coordinator of Seattle just fired

Giving caps a try :strong::afro:

Bravo Tsi! A little suggestion though. Seattle always has a capital S and so do the Saints. But a great start!

Garcia Bronco
01-18-2011, 12:41 PM
See...I would have fired Pete Carroll

tsiguy96
01-18-2011, 12:44 PM
AdamSchefter Adam Schefter
Seahawks have been talking with former Broncos HC Josh McDaniels since Monday. Interesting.

TonyR
01-18-2011, 12:49 PM
AdamSchefter Adam Schefter
Seahawks have been talking with former Broncos HC Josh McDaniels since Monday. Interesting.

Probably has a lot to do with the talks "falling apart" in St. Louis. So much for the "nobody will want to hire McD" talk...

Mile High Shack
01-18-2011, 12:50 PM
Probably has a lot to do with the talks "falling apart" in St. Louis. So much for the "nobody will want to hire McD" talk...

let's hold off on that and see if he will actually get hired

bronco militia
01-18-2011, 12:50 PM
sweet!!! just one more reason to hate pete carol

CEH
01-18-2011, 12:53 PM
Josh might be more interested in the video technology of Kinetics than Walmart security cams . If somehow we can videotape with just motion detection and still be somewhere else . To the cloud

footstepsfrom#27
01-18-2011, 01:00 PM
This is a bit suprising... perhaps it has something to do with the fact that Hasselbeck is being forced out too by Petey and he wants to go with a young QB and a new OC? Who knows...
Didin't know that...I was just thinking he'd be a great backup/mentor to Tebow if he was leaving there any time soon. He probably wants to start but he's 35 I think...and probably to expensive.

WABronco
01-18-2011, 01:01 PM
Josh might be more interested in the video technology of Kinetics than Walmart security cams . If somehow we can videotape with just motion detection and still be somewhere else . To the cloud

HAha that made me chuckle. TO THE CLOUD

Tombstone RJ
01-18-2011, 01:03 PM
Didin't know that...I was just thinking he'd be a great backup/mentor to Tebow if he was leaving there any time soon. He probably wants to start but he's 35 I think...and probably to expensive.

I apologize, I'm not saying that is the case. I was just throwing that on the wall as to why Bates may have been axed by his friend Carroll...

UberBroncoMan
01-18-2011, 01:13 PM
Seattle is paying Pete a lot. Seems ownership won't mind ponying up for McD.

Taco John
01-18-2011, 01:23 PM
Seattle could screw up scrambling eggs. I hope they hire Professor McBubbleScreen.

Ray Finkle
01-18-2011, 01:29 PM
Seattle could screw up scrambling eggs. I hope they hire Professor McBubbleScreen.

If McD was Professor McBubbleScreen, Bates had to be Master BubbleScreen.

baja
01-18-2011, 01:30 PM
Looks like Josh McD to the Seahawks

TheReverend
01-18-2011, 01:32 PM
I canNOT see Pete working with Josh. Will be interesting to see though.

TheReverend
01-18-2011, 01:32 PM
If McD was Professor McBubbleScreen, Bates had to be Master BubbleScreen.

What? Bates learned the bubble screen from watching tape of Darth Bubblescreenus himself.

baja
01-18-2011, 01:35 PM
let's hold off on that and see if he will actually get hired

He'll get hired because he is one of the best OCs in the league.

To those of you that like to think getting rid of Josh McDaniels solves much of the problems for the Broncos - - - You're wrong


Josh had to be let go but not solely because of Josh, the bulk of the blame falls to the ownership for letting him make too many decisions by himself, decisions he was not ready to make. Maybe bringing in Elway will fix the real problem. Let's hope so.

Pick Six
01-18-2011, 01:37 PM
Seattle fans are denied any more Master Bates jokes...:clown:

Mile High Shack
01-18-2011, 01:39 PM
He'll get hired because he is one of the best OCs in the league.

To those of you that like to think getting rid of Josh McDaniels solves much of the problems for the Broncos - - - You're wrong


Josh had to be let go but not solely because of Josh, the bulk of the blame falls to the ownership for letting him make too many decisions by himself, decisions he was not ready to make. Maybe bringing in Elway will fix the real problem. Let's hope so.

we'll see, I think his genius is way over blown by the people that love him

OrangenBlueOhio
01-18-2011, 01:43 PM
He'll get hired because he is one of the best OCs in the league.

To those of you that like to think getting rid of Josh McDaniels solves much of the problems for the Broncos - - - You're wrong


Josh had to be let go but not solely because of Josh, the bulk of the blame falls to the ownership for letting him make too many decisions by himself, decisions he was not ready to make. Maybe bringing in Elway will fix the real problem. Let's hope so.

Marty Morniwhig (sp?) got hired after deferring in overtime. Sooner or later they all end up somewhere.

baja
01-18-2011, 01:44 PM
we'll see, I think his genius is way over blown by the people that love him

Who Loves him? Certainly not me I just think he's a good coach. Many players said they learned more from him than just about any other coach they ever had.

He will follow in Shanny's career path. He'll be on OC for a season or two than he'll get another shot and kick ass just like Shanny did.

baja
01-18-2011, 01:47 PM
Marty Morniwhig (sp?) got hired after deferring in overtime. Sooner or later they all end up somewhere.

The way some here tell it McD would be luck to get hired as laundry attendant if it involved a football team.

Mile High Shack
01-18-2011, 01:49 PM
Who Loves him? Certainly not me I just think he's a good coach. Many players said they learned more from him than just about any other coach they ever had.

He will follow in Shanny's career path. He'll be on OC for a season or two than he'll get another shot and kick ass just like Shanny did.

I think he will get his shot again, just not next year, I could be wrong, call it the cynic in me, but I think the video taping thing was a bigger deal behind the scenes than we know.

I think in 2012 he'll coach again, I'll full admit I'm wrong if he gets one of these OC jobs this year

Kaylore
01-18-2011, 01:52 PM
Seattle could screw up scrambling eggs. I hope they hire Professor McBubbleScreen.

Interesting fact: Bates' offense ran more bubble screens per season than McDaniels.

Drek
01-18-2011, 02:04 PM
Cool, if Gase walks Denver needs a QB coach. How 'bout it Jeremy? You want to finally work with some real talent at QB?

BroncoBuff
01-18-2011, 02:05 PM
Looks like Josh McD to the Seahawks

That makes two jobs Josh has taken from Jeremy the past three years.

baja
01-18-2011, 02:06 PM
I think he will get his shot again, just not next year, I could be wrong, call it the cynic in me,<b> but I think the video taping thing was a bigger deal behind the scenes than we know.</b>

I think in 2012 he'll coach again, I'll full admit I'm wrong if he gets one of these OC jobs this year


I would almost bet he will be an OC somewhere this season and I think it will be for Pete Carol. He won't be bothered by the video taping thing.

I do agree with you in that a major reason he was fired in Denver stemmed from the video taping saga. Without that incident I think Pat Bowlen would have kept him another season which would have been a mistake assuming he did not fix the real problem of Josh having too much power. Hard to take power away once it is given though.

baja
01-18-2011, 02:08 PM
That makes two jobs Josh has taken from Jeremy the past three years.

Word has it you are posting on another board. You better get your ass back here where you belong. ;D

bowtown
01-18-2011, 02:13 PM
Word has it you are posting on another board. You better get your ass back here where you belong. ;D

The Chris Simms Fan Club board doesn't just moderate itself you know.

TonyR
01-18-2011, 02:14 PM
I think he will get his shot again, just not next year...

I don't know, MHS, the talks falling throught in St. Louis coinciding with Bates being fired seems to indicate Joshie will be hired very soon in Seattle...

Bronco Vixen
01-18-2011, 02:14 PM
I canNOT see Pete working with Josh. Will be interesting to see though.

No kidding. That has drama written all over it. Smarm factor squared up there in the northwest. Yucko.

OABB
01-18-2011, 02:14 PM
The Chris Simms Fan Club board doesn't just moderate itself you know.

Actually it does, because it only has one member.

Garcia Bronco
01-18-2011, 02:14 PM
I could see Carroll, a known cheater, hire another known cheater, McDaniels.

Kaylore
01-18-2011, 02:15 PM
I could see Carroll, a known cheater, hire another known cheater, McDaniels.

:spit: Awesome.

PRBronco
01-18-2011, 02:32 PM
Interesting fact: Bates' offense ran more bubble screens per season than McDaniels.

Your facts have no place in Josh McDaniels arguments! He ran Cutler out of town singlehandedly!!

BroncosMT
01-18-2011, 02:35 PM
I could see Carroll, a known cheater, hire another known cheater, McDaniels.

Hilarious!

baja
01-18-2011, 02:36 PM
Your facts have no place in Josh McDaniels arguments! He ran Cutler out of town singlehandedly!!

That's right he impersonated Bowlen in a call to himself instructing himself to trade Cutler.

cutthemdown
01-18-2011, 02:40 PM
WOW. Didnt see this coming, seattle had a decent year especially piling it on the saints.


michaelombardi
Jeremey Bates Offensive Coordinator of Seattle just fired

Giving caps a try :strong::afro:

Another great take. Except that the hawks were near the bottom in every offensive category.

cutthemdown
01-18-2011, 02:41 PM
He'll get hired because he is one of the best OCs in the league.

To those of you that like to think getting rid of Josh McDaniels solves much of the problems for the Broncos - - - You're wrong


Josh had to be let go but not solely because of Josh, the bulk of the blame falls to the ownership for letting him make too many decisions by himself, decisions he was not ready to make. Maybe bringing in Elway will fix the real problem. Let's hope so.

It was sort of a perfect storm that got Mcd. One thing after another coupled with losing a lot of games added up to him having to be let go.

I think though he will get an OC job and do really well.

Hamrob
01-18-2011, 03:08 PM
They want McD for his work with QB's. I suspect they're hoping he can do with Whitehurst what he did for Cassell and Orton.

Personally, I think McD is a pretty good OC and he'll end up with another HC oppurtunity...but, man...look out for that ego!

BroncosMT
01-18-2011, 03:09 PM
They want McD for his work with QB's. I suspect they're hoping he can do with Whitehurst what he did for Cassell and Orton.

Personally, I think McD is a pretty good OC and he'll end up with another HC oppurtunity...but, man...look out for that ego!

Its the ego that makes me skeptical of whether it will work with Carroll

Hamrob
01-18-2011, 03:09 PM
Bates is pretty good too. I wouldn't be surprised to see him surface in conversation about other open OC jobs....right now. I'd be surprised if he doesn't land on his feet somewhere. If nothing else, he'll be a QB coach somewhere.

footstepsfrom#27
01-18-2011, 03:21 PM
If McD gets hired at Seattle maybe they become a target for an Orton trade?

CEH
01-18-2011, 03:33 PM
If McD gets hired at Seattle maybe they become a target for an Orton trade?

Pick Ari , SF or Sea and trade Orton to them and they automatically are contenders (more likely the favorites) for the NFCW crown.

Boomhauer
01-18-2011, 03:36 PM
Cool, if Gase walks Denver needs a QB coach. How 'bout it Jeremy? You want to finally work with some real talent at QB?

Brady Quinn? If Dirty Sanchez can get a team through playoffs, I'm sure pretty-boy Quinn could too.

Pony Boy
01-18-2011, 03:44 PM
I could see Carroll, a known cheater, hire another known cheater, McDaniels.

Great tandem the "double douche"

t-diddy
01-18-2011, 04:09 PM
If McD gets hired at Seattle maybe they become a target for an Orton trade?

Exactly... i would think this increases the potential value of Orton since everybody saw what he can do with McD.

tsiguy96
01-18-2011, 04:10 PM
mcd talks heated up again in stl

baja
01-18-2011, 05:05 PM
I don't think Orton is going anywhere at least until Tebow proves he is going to be a solid starting QB for us and that will likely be just before the trade deadline.

baja
01-18-2011, 05:09 PM
Does anyone else wonder if all this interest in a fired HC with a 4 and 12 record has something to do with the word being out around league insiders that Bowlen is compromised and McD got a raw deal.

Could also be why some coaches have flat turned the Broncos down a problem this team has not had for several decades.

PRBronco
01-18-2011, 05:11 PM
Does anyone else wonder if all this interest in a fired HC with a 4 and 12 record has something to do with the word being out around league insiders that Bowlen is compromised and McD got a raw deal.

Could also be why some coaches have flat turned the Broncos down a problem this team has not had for several decades.

As soon as he was fired I knew he'd be scooped up. Giving him absolute power was dumb, but firing him halfway through was even worse.

*edit* I tee'd up a poop joke for someone there, you're welcome.

Homer Simpson
01-18-2011, 05:11 PM
There is only one senile fool and he is posting directly above.

Taco John
01-18-2011, 05:12 PM
Interesting fact: Bates' offense ran more bubble screens per season than McDaniels.

Where can you find stats on such things?

PRBronco
01-18-2011, 05:12 PM
there is only one senile fool and he is posting directly above.

:o! :(

Homer Simpson
01-18-2011, 05:12 PM
There is only one senile fool and he is posting directly above PRBronco.

Homer Simpson
01-18-2011, 05:14 PM
ROFL!

You were too fast bro!

Can anyone fathom? We gave up 59 points to the Raiders because of Bowlen!

Taco John
01-18-2011, 05:15 PM
There is only one senile fool and he is posting directly above PRBronco.

Boy I walked into this room at the wrong time! Ha!

ColoradoDarin
01-18-2011, 05:15 PM
Marty Morniwhig (sp?) got hired after deferring in overtime. Sooner or later they all end up somewhere.

I remember Elway saying "Nah, we're going to kick" in overtime against the Bills in the late 90s. I thought he was being sarcastic, but nope, we wanted the wind. Can't exactly remember, but we did win the game.

Garcia Bronco
01-18-2011, 05:15 PM
Great tandem the "double douche"

lol. I can hear sam elliot saying it right now.

footstepsfrom#27
01-18-2011, 05:17 PM
Does anyone else wonder if all this interest in a fired HC with a 4 and 12 record has something to do with the word being out around league insiders that Bowlen is compromised and McD got a raw deal.

Could also be why some coaches have flat turned the Broncos down a problem this team has not had for several decades.
McD got a raw deal?

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/shookdown/you-fail-1.jpg

Homer Simpson
01-18-2011, 05:18 PM
I think in future I will use quotes, those posts didn't work at all!

I may be the senile one! Doh!

Taco John
01-18-2011, 05:19 PM
McD got a raw deal?

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/shookdown/you-fail-1.jpg

Man fish are so stupid!

HILife
01-18-2011, 05:24 PM
I was shocked when I heard about this. Wonder what happen.

Taco John
01-18-2011, 05:25 PM
So the Seahawks fired Jeremy Bates so that they can hire Josh McDaniels, and then he snubs them for the Rams.

Wow.

Seattle could screw up scrambling eggs.

elsid13
01-18-2011, 05:26 PM
I remember Elway saying "Nah, we're going to kick" in overtime against the Bills in the late 90s. I thought he was being sarcastic, but nope, we wanted the wind. Can't exactly remember, but we did win the game.

That was the blizzard game where the players almost didn't get to Buffalo. It also the game wee TD ran the ball 40 times.

Homer Simpson
01-18-2011, 05:30 PM
So the Seahawks fired Jeremy Bates so that they can hire Josh McDaniels, and then he snubs them for the Rams.

Wow.

Seattle could screw up scrambling eggs.

From a purely selfish point of view we don't have to listen to Tebow to Seattle rumors for months, McD has gone somewhere with an established QB which is great!

baja
01-18-2011, 05:54 PM
There is only one senile fool and he is posting directly above PRBronco.

I see you are giving your "Dagmar the red ass" account a rest .

Rohirrim
01-18-2011, 06:05 PM
Man fish are so stupid!

But tasty. ;)

Homer Simpson
01-18-2011, 06:06 PM
I see you are giving your "Dagmar the red ass" account a rest .

Already disproven that bro, but why don't you derail another thread.

strafen
01-18-2011, 06:09 PM
So the Seahawks fired Jeremy Bates so that they can hire Josh McDaniels, and then he snubs them for the Rams.

Wow.

Seattle could screw up scrambling eggs.There are rumors now they're starting to talk now.
It could be possible that the breakdown in the negotiations had something to do with McDaniels wanting power in personnel decisions Ha!

Homer Simpson
01-18-2011, 06:11 PM
There are rumors now they're starting to talk now.
It could be possible that the breakdown in the negotiations had something to do with McDaniels wanting power in personnel decisions Ha!

He's already signed a contract with the Rams.

strafen
01-18-2011, 06:11 PM
I see you are giving your "Dagmar the red ass" account a rest .

Thanks!
I knew Homer Simpson= Dagmar

Isn't that against the rules to have two accounts?
If so, time for a perma-ban!

baja
01-18-2011, 06:12 PM
Already disproven that bro, but why don't you derail another thread.

Looks like you be the derailer and I'm not you bro.

Let's see Dagmar gets ass burnt because myself and others call him on some stupid shiit he posts (the very thing he whines that others do to him) and he leaves

Now along comes his second account Homer Simpson to pick up the battle. You're not fooling anyone Rusty.

InMyCornerOfTheWorld
01-18-2011, 06:13 PM
Seems to me the NFL is taking its cue from prime-time TV: fire its coach if he doesn't win a playoff game the same the way the networks cancel a show if it performs below its demanded mark (sometimes after opening week).

I also learned recently that Eric Mangini got fired again (this time by the Browns). For such a young couch to be dumped by two teams within a span of a few seasons....ouch!

Gutless Drunk
01-18-2011, 06:17 PM
Tom Cable lands in Seattle
Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on January 18, 2011, 7:33 PM EST
Tom Cable

Just one hour after Raiders owner Al Davis did his best to make sure no one would ever hire Tom Cable again, the Seahawks announced they’ve hired Cable as assistant head coach/offensive line coach.

Down the coast in Oakland, Cable’s old co-worker Hue Jackson was simultaneously slamming Cable and giving him a reference.

“What Tom [Cable] is, he’s an exceptional line coach,” Jackson said. (Ouch.)

It is a nice move for Seattle and ensures the team will get the zone blocking scheme Pete Carroll envisioned a year ago. Cable’s mentor Alex Gibbs initially installed his system in Seattle, then left before the regular season started.

Todd Wash was also announced as Seattle’s new defensive line coach
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/18/tom-cable-lands-in-seattle/

Killericon
01-18-2011, 09:20 PM
Tom Cable lands in Seattle
Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on January 18, 2011, 7:33 PM EST
Tom Cable

Just one hour after Raiders owner Al Davis did his best to make sure no one would ever hire Tom Cable again, the Seahawks announced they’ve hired Cable as assistant head coach/offensive line coach.

Down the coast in Oakland, Cable’s old co-worker Hue Jackson was simultaneously slamming Cable and giving him a reference.

“What Tom [Cable] is, he’s an exceptional line coach,” Jackson said. (Ouch.)

It is a nice move for Seattle and ensures the team will get the zone blocking scheme Pete Carroll envisioned a year ago. Cable’s mentor Alex Gibbs initially installed his system in Seattle, then left before the regular season started.

Todd Wash was also announced as Seattle’s new defensive line coach
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/18/tom-cable-lands-in-seattle/

Marshawn Lynch just came.

As a side note, if the Hawks went and got Norm Chow to be their OC, with Cable running the OL, man. They could run the table.

HAT
01-18-2011, 11:05 PM
Tsiguy finding the shift key AND starting a thread with a decent title. The end is near.

Nigh.

HAT
01-18-2011, 11:07 PM
let's hold off on that and see if he will actually get hired

OK...So now what?

TheReverend
01-19-2011, 08:11 AM
Cable’s mentor Alex Gibbs initially installed his system in Seattle, then left before the regular season started.

Where the **** did they get this from? Cable coached the OL in Atl for ONE YEAR while Gibbs was a "consultant" aka too busy golfing to coach, and now he's his mentor despite Cable already having a decade and a half of OL coaching experience?

bendog
01-19-2011, 08:39 AM
Bates was never a fit. Hasselback can't really throw a deep out, and Sea is pretty much limited to a trad WC passing scheme with no play designed to go more than 40 yds unless it RAC. It'll be interesting to see where he ends up.

Ray Finkle
01-19-2011, 08:41 AM
Denver needs a QB coach.....Bates would be ideal....

baja
01-19-2011, 08:45 AM
Denver needs a QB coach.....Bates would be ideal....

Maybe Jay will hire him.

jhns
01-19-2011, 08:49 AM
Maybe Jay will hire him.

So, you were saying something about a yellow light? You don't seem to operate under it unless you are defending McDaniels. It doesn't happen when you talk about Cutler, Bowlen, Shanahan, or anyone else....

McDaniels fans just don't make sense.

bendog
01-19-2011, 09:02 AM
They don't but I'm not sure Bates is a fit. On one hand, Tebow needs a guy who can drill drill drill fundamentals, and a guy who coach him on the offensive scheme. I'm not sure Bates fits either need. And that's not a diss. Shanny would have been better off with Bates than his kid and Donovan. It'll be interesting to see where Bates lands. I wouldn't be that surprised to see him land in the NCAA

baja
01-19-2011, 09:08 AM
So, you were saying something about a yellow light? You don't seem to operate under it unless you are defending McDaniels. It doesn't happen when you talk about Cutler, Bowlen, Shanahan, or anyone else....

McDaniels fans just don't make sense.

Wrong.

Cutler has shone improvement under Martz. Had some good games this season. I'm glad he's a Bear and not a Bronco.

Bowlen was the best owner in all of sports and I defended him here on many an occasion. It became increasingly clear he is having mental problems and I am in sympathy with him for that. He is the bottom line reason the Broncos are in the shape they are in.

Shanahan was my hero for many years and he deserves much gratitude for his early success in Denver and he also deserves credit for the failures of the Broncos post SB years.

This is yellow light stuff jhns, get it?

Oh, and on McD, he is a good football mind but it seems he has very poor people skills and may be a cheater.

jhns
01-19-2011, 09:23 AM
Wrong.

Cutler has shone improvement under Martz. Had some good games this season. I'm glad he's a Bear and not a Bronco.

Bowlen was the best owner in all of sports and I defended him here on many an occasion. It became increasingly clear he is having mental problems and I am in sympathy with him for that. He is the bottom line reason the Broncos are in the shape they are in.

Shanahan was my hero for many years and he deserves much gratitude for his early success in Denver and he also deserves credit for the failures of the Broncos post SB years.

This is yellow light stuff jhns, get it?

Oh, and on McD, he is a good football mind but it seems he has very poor people skills and may be a cheater.

Yes, this would be the yellow light you were talking about. It isn't how you post 99% of the time...

It is kind of silly to say you are glad we don't have a good QB and the Bowlen stuff is made up garbage, but at least you tried to be objective in this post.

baja
01-19-2011, 09:28 AM
Yes, this would be the yellow light you were talking about. It isn't how you post 99% of the time...

It is kind of silly to say you are glad we don't have a good QB and the Bowlen stuff is made up garbage, but at least you tried to be objective in this post.

I am objective it comes with age.

jhns
01-19-2011, 09:43 AM
I am objective it comes with age.

You are one of the least objective posters I have seen. Mental problems and stubbornness comes with age.

baja
01-19-2011, 09:48 AM
You are one of the least objective posters I have seen. Mental problems and stubbornness comes with age.

You see it that way because you are so polarized, I am left of middle on McD but to you it looks like I am in love with him. That's how far the other way you are.

Have you not read the hundreds of posts pointing this out to you?

jhns
01-19-2011, 09:53 AM
You see it that way because you are so polarized, I am left of middle on McD but to you it looks like I am in love with him. That's how far the other way you are.

Have you not read the hundreds of posts pointing this out to you?

Yes, I get that you are senile and stubborn. I just said that.

Drek
01-19-2011, 09:54 AM
You see it that way because you are so polarized, I am left of middle on McD but to you it looks like I am in love with him. That's how far the other way you are.

Have you not read the hundreds of posts pointing this out to you?
Talking anything McDaniels related with jhns is like talking evolution with a young earth creationist.

jhns
01-19-2011, 10:15 AM
Talking anything McDaniels related with jhns is like talking evolution with a young earth creationist.

Says the guy defending his moves. "All of the biggest moves were really good for us! The Maroney trade wasn't bad! Trading for Smith was the right move even if he sucked and wasn't here after a season...." The list goes on. None of it even makes a little sense when looking at where this team is at now. You have no room to talk.

Drek
01-19-2011, 10:36 AM
Says the guy defending his moves. "All of the biggest moves were really good for us! The Maroney trade wasn't bad! Trading for Smith was the right move even if he sucked and wasn't here after a season...." The list goes on. None of it even makes a little sense when looking at where this team is at now. You have no room to talk.

Again, much like a young earth creationist you have no ability to maintain the perspective of someone's points. You condense it into something diametrically opposed to your perception of reality in the most disingenuous way possible.

1. most of McDaniels' biggest moves do look quite good in retrospect. A king's ransom for Cutler only to get nearly two full seasons of good play from Orton along with drafting Tebow is a savvy move. Trading Marshall and replacing him with Lloyd was a great move. The big moves he hit out of the park. If he'd been even half as successful on the small to middle sized transactions we'd have people extolling the Cutler and Marshall trades as the hallmark moves of a young genius in the NFL.

2. The Maroney trade wasn't bad. We didn't lose pick quantity, just shifted a mid-round pick back two rounds for a stop gap that knew our pass pro schemes. For a team desperately in need of tailback depth it was a cost conscious move to fill a big hole quickly. That said, even prior to the season starting I'd expressed my displeasure with how little competition we brought into camp at RB. A lot of good RBs went undrafted this year and we didn't acquire any of them, despite McDaniels acknowledging RB as a need area even going into the draft.

3. I said from day one I didn't like trading away a future 1st for a current 2nd. I just wasn't going to immediately hate on the player we drafted with that 2nd on principle of not liking the transaction made to get him. Smith is looking like a pretty solid player in Detroit now. Another move I didn't like but again, I was at least willing to look past my initial reaction and see that we got a nice developmental TE out of it who might be worth hanging on to.

See the shades of gray here? Not all black and white, which is the straw man you constantly try to build for yourself in every McDaniels related discussion.

jhns
01-19-2011, 10:40 AM
And my point is proven. Thanks for playing.

Drek
01-19-2011, 10:53 AM
And my point is proven. Thanks for playing.

So instead of actually debating the very points you brought up for what they are you're going to bury your head in the sand and give out a one liner. Yet I'm the "blind" one here with all the "bias".

Shoemaker
01-19-2011, 10:55 AM
And my point is proven. Thanks for playing.

jhns, this is exactly why people consider you to be one of the worst posters on this forum, and Drek to be one of the best.

Drek just responded to your accusations by actually backing up his points. He used facts and logic to explain his thinking. You may disagree with his views, but I don't really see how you could deny that he actually supported them intelligently.

Your response to this post was to completely ignore it and claim victory. You didn't bother to refute a single one of his arguments with counterpoints. Hell, you could have made that post without reading a single thing he said.

Surely, the contrast in posting styles isn't lost on you. You accuse him and many others of being a blind McDaniels follower, but your posts are the ones which lack any substance or support. Its why people call you a troll, because you don't come here out of an interest in rational discussion about the Broncos. You just come here to post your blanket statements about how stupid people were for supporting McDaniels and then walk away claiming victory no matter what anybody says to actually support their points. Its troll behavior, quite honestly.

jhns
01-19-2011, 11:44 AM
jhns, this is exactly why people consider you to be one of the worst posters on this forum, and Drek to be one of the best.

Drek just responded to your accusations by actually backing up his points. He used facts and logic to explain his thinking. You may disagree with his views, but I don't really see how you could deny that he actually supported them intelligently.

Your response to this post was to completely ignore it and claim victory. You didn't bother to refute a single one of his arguments with counterpoints. Hell, you could have made that post without reading a single thing he said.

Surely, the contrast in posting styles isn't lost on you. You accuse him and many others of being a blind McDaniels follower, but your posts are the ones which lack any substance or support. Its why people call you a troll, because you don't come here out of an interest in rational discussion about the Broncos. You just come here to post your blanket statements about how stupid people were for supporting McDaniels and then walk away claiming victory no matter what anybody says to actually support their points. Its troll behavior, quite honestly.

First off, you need to learn what a fact is. Secondly, we have been debating this exact stuff in about 30 threads over the last 3 months. The topic that we had going leading up to Dreks post was not to debate those points. Plus, I was on my way to lunch. Maybe I will refute them now.

jhns
01-19-2011, 11:58 AM
Again, much like a young earth creationist you have no ability to maintain the perspective of someone's points. You condense it into something diametrically opposed to your perception of reality in the most disingenuous way possible.


You score 2 troll points for this paragraph. It has nothing to do with football. I think others are giving you more credit than you deserve.


1. most of McDaniels' biggest moves do look quite good in retrospect. A king's ransom for Cutler only to get nearly two full seasons of good play from Orton along with drafting Tebow is a savvy move. Trading Marshall and replacing him with Lloyd was a great move. The big moves he hit out of the park. If he'd been even half as successful on the small to middle sized transactions we'd have people extolling the Cutler and Marshall trades as the hallmark moves of a young genius in the NFL.


All of the big moves were good as we got much worse? Wtf?

We didn't replace Marshall with Lloyd. If Marshall was still here, it would be Marshall AND Lloyd... We had Lloyd well before getting rid of Marshall. Here is a fact. Marshall is better than Gaffney at playing receiver in the NFL.

We would be praising him if he improved the team. He made it worse than it has been in decades though. I don't really get your point... If I had ten million dollars I wouldn't be at work right now. Saying that doesn't really do me any good.


2. The Maroney trade wasn't bad. We didn't lose pick quantity, just shifted a mid-round pick back two rounds for a stop gap that knew our pass pro schemes. For a team desperately in need of tailback depth it was a cost conscious move to fill a big hole quickly. That said, even prior to the season starting I'd expressed my displeasure with how little competition we brought into camp at RB. A lot of good RBs went undrafted this year and we didn't acquire any of them, despite McDaniels acknowledging RB as a need area even going into the draft.


Yeah, a worthless back that knew the system. Fourth rounders are a lot better than sixth rounders. The number of starters in the league is way in favor of fourth rounders. There is only one sixth round HOF player. There are seven from the seventh round. The sixth round has historically been the worst there is... We had RBs on roster that could do what Maroney did. While that trade isn't one that will cripple the franchise, it was still a bad trade. There is no spin that makes trading for a **** player a good thing. I don't care if we give up a seventh...


3. I said from day one I didn't like trading away a future 1st for a current 2nd. I just wasn't going to immediately hate on the player we drafted with that 2nd on principle of not liking the transaction made to get him. Smith is looking like a pretty solid player in Detroit now. Another move I didn't like but again, I was at least willing to look past my initial reaction and see that we got a nice developmental TE out of it who might be worth hanging on to.


I didn't hate on Smith either. You defend this horrible move though. If he is playing well for another team, then it was also a horrible move to trade him for a worthless TE. I don't see why this move would be defended at all. You were by far the biggest defender of it....


See the shades of gray here? Not all black and white, which is the straw man you constantly try to build for yourself in every McDaniels related discussion.

Ummm, you have not touched the grey area. You are more biased than I am...

baja
01-19-2011, 12:07 PM
And my point is proven. Thanks for playing.

Drek eats you alive and you don't feel a thing.

Kinda like watching a lion eating a live gazelle on Animal Planet, they don't seem to feel any pain once they resolve themselves to the reality of the situation. They just get a glazed over look and go peacefully into the darkness.

jhns
01-19-2011, 12:25 PM
Drek eats you alive and you don't feel a thing.

Kinda like watching a lion eating a live gazelle on Animal Planet, they don't seem to feel any pain once they resolve themselves to the reality of the situation. They just get a glazed over look and go peacefully into the darkness.

LOL

Says the McDaniels fan...

Drek
01-19-2011, 12:31 PM
All of the big moves were good as we got much worse? Wtf?
The NFL isn't the NBA, big moves don't make a good team. All the dozens to even hundreds of less noteworthy transactions do.

We didn't replace Marshall with Lloyd. If Marshall was still here, it would be Marshall AND Lloyd... We had Lloyd well before getting rid of Marshall. Here is a fact. Marshall is better than Gaffney at playing receiver in the NFL.
And that wouldn't work. Marshall would throw a fit because he gets too few targets and he and Lloyd both offer a pretty similar kind of production though through different skill sets. They're intermediate chain movers who make 10-20 yard plays.

That said, maybe there would be some way we could have retained Marshall but we effectively traded the right to pay him #1 WR in the NFL money for two 2nds, not Marshall the player himself. In a pure value sense that is a big win. Marshall wasn't playing anywhere without a new, top of the market, deal. You continually fail to keep that in mind.

Yeah, a worthless back that knew the system. Fourth rounders are a lot better than sixth rounders. The number of starters in the league is way in favor of fourth rounders. There is only one sixth round HOF player. There are seven from the seventh round. The sixth round has historically been the worst there is... We had RBs on roster that could do what Maroney did. While that trade isn't one that will cripple the franchise, it was still a bad trade. There is no spin that makes trading for a **** player a good thing. I don't care if we give up a seventh...
And who might those other options come that point in the regular season have been? Because a bunch of NFL employees didn't think Ball or Hall were ready for prime time at that point and those were our only options who had even passing familiarity with the system. Never mind that both Ball and Hall looked horrible in pass pro during pre-season against 3rd stringers and we were about to face the Titans, Colts, and Jets in succession. Three teams were your RBs better hold up in pass pro.

I'm not trying to make this trade look like a good thing or a bad thing either. I'm just pointing out that it was a sound football move to get a known quantity in at a position of serious need cheaply and quickly.

I didn't hate on Smith either. You defend this horrible move though. If he is playing well for another team, then it was also a horrible move to trade him for a worthless TE. I don't see why this move would be defended at all. You were by far the biggest defender of it....
No, I defended the player taken after the move was made. And then voiced my own distaste with having traded him early but with the caveat that we did acquire what looks to be a solid tight end in exchange, so there was some silver lining.

Ummm, you have not touched the grey area. You are more biased than I am...
And again its all "I'm not biased, you are!" with you.

All this entire response of yours boils down to is you breaking each one of my (numbered) points out and saying "NUH UH!" repeatedly. You aren't trying to argue their merits in a logical point. You just regurgitate the same uninsightful bile about every single transaction this club has made in the last two years.

It gets old.

baja
01-19-2011, 12:31 PM
LOL

Says the McDaniels fan...

Stop dude you're bleeding all over my keyboard.

jhns
01-19-2011, 12:40 PM
The NFL isn't the NBA, big moves don't make a good team. All the dozens to even hundreds of less noteworthy transactions do.


And that wouldn't work. Marshall would throw a fit because he gets too few targets and he and Lloyd both offer a pretty similar kind of production though through different skill sets. They're intermediate chain movers who make 10-20 yard plays.

That said, maybe there would be some way we could have retained Marshall but we effectively traded the right to pay him #1 WR in the NFL money for two 2nds, not Marshall the player himself. In a pure value sense that is a big win. Marshall wasn't playing anywhere without a new, top of the market, deal. You continually fail to keep that in mind.


And who might those other options come that point in the regular season have been? Because a bunch of NFL employees didn't think Ball or Hall were ready for prime time at that point and those were our only options who had even passing familiarity with the system. Never mind that both Ball and Hall looked horrible in pass pro during pre-season against 3rd stringers and we were about to face the Titans, Colts, and Jets in succession. Three teams were your RBs better hold up in pass pro.

I'm not trying to make this trade look like a good thing or a bad thing either. I'm just pointing out that it was a sound football move to get a known quantity in at a position of serious need cheaply and quickly.


No, I defended the player taken after the move was made. And then voiced my own distaste with having traded him early but with the caveat that we did acquire what looks to be a solid tight end in exchange, so there was some silver lining.


And again its all "I'm not biased, you are!" with you.

All this entire response of yours boils down to is you breaking each one of my (numbered) points out and saying "NUH UH!" repeatedly. You aren't trying to argue their merits in a logical point. You just regurgitate the same uninsightful bile about every single transaction this club has made in the last two years.

It gets old.

Ummm, name me even 100 transactions in McDaniels time here. It is said he released 30 something players that never played again. I know of a bunch that did. I bet you still can't find 100 transactions. This, all while ignoring the fact that the big transactions I am talking about were moving starters. You do realize that starters are a little more important than backup depth and brining in crap players, right?

This stuff about Marshall is a random theory you just made up. It is not living in reality. Royal had almost 100 catches when Marshall was here. Lloyd was one of the best deep threats in the game as you claim he has the same type of production as Marshall? Wtf?

What is your point about the bias? You are claiming the exact same thing...

As for your last paragraph. Again, look in a mirror. Your points have 0 facts. They are only well though out to you. I see them as pretty poor logic...

jhns
01-19-2011, 12:42 PM
Stop dude you're bleeding all over my keyboard.

McDaniels fans are silly. It is like they don't even care about the Broncos. This is highlighted by them saying they hate football now that McDaniels isn't here.

I hope you enjoy your time rooting for the Rams.

Drek
01-19-2011, 12:57 PM
Ummm, name me even 100 transactions in McDaniels time here. It is said he released 30 something players that never played again. I know of a bunch that did. I bet you still can't find 100 transactions. This, all while ignoring the fact that the big transactions I am talking about were moving starters. You do realize that starters are a little more important than backup depth and brining in crap players, right?
Now that would be a pointless exercise.

However, if you actually watched playoff games you'd likely have heard that Pete Carrol has made 762 transactions since becoming the HC for the Seahawks. 762. Transactions aren't just players on the 53 man roster. Coaches, assistants, office personnel, etc. all play into how a team does, to their own varying degrees.

You have 80 man rosters for pre-season and you have to get it down to 53 for the regular season. You're talking 27 guys on camp cuts alone, not cutting any early cuts you replace with other guys (which every team does), mid-season transactions, or the guys you don't even bring back from the previous year. On strictly player personnel every team in the NFL makes over 100 transactions that effect their franchise every single season.

This stuff about Marshall is a random theory you just made up. It is not living in reality. Royal had almost 100 catches when Marshall was here. Lloyd was one of the best deep threats in the game as you claim he has the same type of production as Marshall? Wtf?
Lloyd is a great intermediate threat. He doesn't have game breaking speed. He gets down field and uses his vertical and great hands to make plays over corners. Much like how Marshall would get down field and use his size and power to make plays over corners. Very similar at the beginning of the play where the QB puts the ball up for the WR to make a play on it, and very similar at the end when you walk away with good yardage and a first down, which the WR occasionally turns into bigger plays.

Over the last two years we've played with Marshall and Lloyd both going to the far edge of intermediate (kinda McDaniels' thing), but neither one works like your traditional Randy Moss deep threat where they beat the coverage with speed and catch a bomb. They get down field and use their superior ability to go up and get the ball to beat the coverage.

The Dolphins screwed up Marshall this year by trying to make him into a short yardage possession WR. That isn't where he does his best work.

Royal on the other hand is best suited to creating separation from WRs to get the ball and put up YAC. He's a great compliment to Marshall because he can attack a team short or deep, but in the intermediate space and over the middle he gets beat up.

But again, that is all an aside to the more important aspect of trading Marshall. In that we didn't trade Marshall, we traded the right to make him the #1 paid WR in the NFL. Because he wasn't playing without that new high dollar deal.

So would you have rather given Marshall the #1 WR contract in the NFL, or would you take two 2nd round picks?

Any response to the other two points by the way?

Drek
01-19-2011, 12:59 PM
McDaniels fans are silly. It is like they don't even care about the Broncos. This is highlighted by them saying they hate football now that McDaniels isn't here.

I hope you enjoy your time rooting for the Rams.

Who has ever said this? Not to be rude or anything but you're starting to sound like a paranoid schizophrenic.

jhns
01-19-2011, 01:11 PM
Now that would be a pointless exercise.

However, if you actually watched playoff games you'd likely have heard that Pete Carrol has made 762 transactions since becoming the HC for the Seahawks. 762. Transactions aren't just players on the 53 man roster. Coaches, assistants, office personnel, etc. all play into how a team does, to their own varying degrees.

You have 80 man rosters for pre-season and you have to get it down to 53 for the regular season. You're talking 27 guys on camp cuts alone, not cutting any early cuts you replace with other guys (which every team does), mid-season transactions, or the guys you don't even bring back from the previous year. On strictly player personnel every team in the NFL makes over 100 transactions that effect their franchise every single season.


Lloyd is a great intermediate threat. He doesn't have game breaking speed. He gets down field and uses his vertical and great hands to make plays over corners. Much like how Marshall would get down field and use his size and power to make plays over corners. Very similar at the beginning of the play where the QB puts the ball up for the WR to make a play on it, and very similar at the end when you walk away with good yardage and a first down, which the WR occasionally turns into bigger plays.

Over the last two years we've played with Marshall and Lloyd both going to the far edge of intermediate (kinda McDaniels' thing), but neither one works like your traditional Randy Moss deep threat where they beat the coverage with speed and catch a bomb. They get down field and use their superior ability to go up and get the ball to beat the coverage.

The Dolphins screwed up Marshall this year by trying to make him into a short yardage possession WR. That isn't where he does his best work.

Royal on the other hand is best suited to creating separation from WRs to get the ball and put up YAC. He's a great compliment to Marshall because he can attack a team short or deep, but in the intermediate space and over the middle he gets beat up.

But again, that is all an aside to the more important aspect of trading Marshall. In that we didn't trade Marshall, we traded the right to make him the #1 paid WR in the NFL. Because he wasn't playing without that new high dollar deal.

So would you have rather given Marshall the #1 WR contract in the NFL, or would you take two 2nd round picks?

Any response to the other two points by the way?

So you are saying that training camp fodder made a big difference? We better hope the assistents weren't a big problem as we kept a lot of them. I will agree that one coaching move was a big problem. I said it at the time. When Nolan left, McDaniels didn't stand a chance.

I'm sorry, you are losing me with this Lloyd is an intermediate threat thing. Lloyd was the best deep threat in the game this year. What do you consider a deep pass? He averaged 18.8 YPC. He had 6 TDs of 21+ yards and 4 of 41+. These are some of the better deep threat numbers in the league. In fact, only two guys look like more of a deep threat. Watching the games, I sure saw Lloyd catching very deep passes a lot.

Would I rather have Marshall or picks? I take the proven player every time. Why would I want a crap shoot over proven talent? The money thing isn't my concern. If we didn't trade Cutler and Marshall for all these top picks, we would have the money to spend anyways...

jhns
01-19-2011, 01:13 PM
Who has ever said this? Not to be rude or anything but you're starting to sound like a paranoid schizophrenic.

Maybe you should leave that second part out. Your boy Baja said it(obviously other than the rooting for the Rams part). Was that not obvious by who the post was responding to?

jhns
01-19-2011, 01:18 PM
As for the other points you asked about... Ball was no worse than Maroney. I'm sure we could have brought in Tatum Bell and he could have done what Maroney did. There is no way to spin Maroney being a good trade. He didn't do anything good here. The worst part is McDaniels knew exactly what Maroney was and still made the move...

The Smith thing was horrible all around. You were in EVERY Smith thread defending it. The player wasn't even worth a second. He also isn't playing well. He is playing well if you think Bly was great here. He makes a few plays and then gives up some huge ones. The second wasn't worth a first. The TE that we got in the end has not shown anything... These are the facts. There is no part of that move that were any good for us. If you realize this then we agree. If you are still defending any part of it, we will never agree.

Drek
01-19-2011, 01:30 PM
So you are saying that training camp fodder made a big difference? We better hope the assistents weren't a big problem as we kept a lot of them. I will agree that one coaching move was a big problem. I said it at the time. When Nolan left, McDaniels didn't stand a chance.
You find guys like Arian Foster out of that camp fodder. That is where McDaniels killed us.

A few off the top of my head:
1. consistently failed to bring in quality UDFAs to compete at RB
2. consistently failed to bring in quality UDFAs to compete at safety
3. consistently failed to bring in much DL help at all in year one. Compounded by going with vets in year 2 and no drafting of young DL help at any point in either draft.
4. failure to bring in quality veteran depth to compete with our young drafted depth on the OL

At every position but QB, WR, and CB he failed to take a holistic approach to roster building. He treated each one of the two primary tools in team building (draft and vet FA acquisitions) as an either or solution and was a massive downgrade in UDFA acquisition from Shanahan (who himself was solid but not fantastic).

This is why our team can't even put out three starting caliber DL, let alone have a single star DL. Or why when we had injuries in the secondary we looked lost. Or why we ran a green as grass group of OLs out with already injury plagued "veterans" when we should have had some experienced bodies to pick up the slack.

In short, when the guys he acquired as a result of the big moves weren't available, due to injury or just not panning out, there was no insurance plan to call on. It became a last minute patch approach. Trading for Maroney was one of the few times when he actually addressed a major need in an intelligent fashion (a low cost vet who knows his system and has produced to at least an average level in the league).

I'm sorry, you are losing me with this Lloyd is an intermediate threat thing. Lloyd was the best deep threat in the game this year. What do you consider a deep pass? He averaged 18.8 YPC. He had 6 TDs of 21+ yards and 4 of 41+. These are some of the better deep threat numbers in the league. In fact, only two guys look like more of a deep threat. Watching the games, I sure saw Lloyd catching very deep passes a lot.
McDaniels' offense used guys like Lloyd and Marshall as intermediate to deep threats because he didn't have a Randy Moss type to stretch the field. How many of those big plays did Lloyd catch from behind the defense like your traditional deep WR threat would? Instead most of them were him making a big play over a defender after working deep, or making a big catch and beating the defender. Much like how Marshall did it here. People used to talk all the time about how McDaniels got bailed out in games because Marshall could break big runs once he got the ball, but that is actually a key aspect of how McDaniels tries to run his offense. Get guys like Marshall or Lloyd who can get intermediate to deep, catch a ball in traffic, and make something happen with it.

Thats just my personal observation of course. Supported by the fact that Marshall made the same kinds of big plays when he was here as the #1. Like I said, they give similar results but with different tools so we could probably have found a way to make them both work, but it would require system change and both of them being up for fewer targets per game (Lloyd wasn't in a place to grouse at the time, but Marshall surely would have).

Would I rather have Marshall or picks? I take the proven player every time. Why would I want a crap shoot over proven talent? The money thing isn't my concern. If we didn't trade Cutler and Marshall for all these top picks, we would have the money to spend anyways...
You do realize that all those "top picks" make less per year combined than Cutler or Marshall now right?

And the money should be the concern of any NFL fan. Its a league with a salary cap. This isn't MLB where there is no limit on financial resources. If you give Marshall $10M a year you have one guy accounting for 1/12th of your team's entire salary. Do the same with Doom and you're out $20M. Champ? That makes $30M, conservatively. It goes on and on.

Some guys are worth the financial risks, some aren't. Its up to teams to weigh the benefits and decide if they are. When they think they aren't its then their job to extract good market value for them. This is what happened with Marshall and McDaniels landed better value than the Chargers could get offered to them for Vincent Jackson, who has his own off field issues but not the injury history of Marshall, while many laud AJ Smith as one of the best front office guys in the NFL.

There is a reason why guys like Marshall, Jackson, Moss, TO, etc. change teams so often. Big dollar WRs are historically not worth the risk in most team's minds. Its a safe play that many teams have made and many teams will make in the future.

TonyR
01-19-2011, 02:23 PM
Interesting stuff on Bates:

Jeremy Bates is out as Seahawks offensive coordinator, a move that hints at more trouble beneath the surface in Seattle than Pete Carroll’s perpetually sunny words would indicate.

Bates’ clashes with former offensive line coach Alex Gibbs reportedly caused Gibbs to leave, according to Steve Kelley of the Seattle Times.

Bates was reportedly a “problem from the beginning” because he was too stubborn and didn’t want to mold his system to his player’s talents. The inability to develop Golden Tate also hurt Bates.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/19/seahawks-scrambling-in-offensive-coordinator-search/

bronco militia
01-19-2011, 02:24 PM
Alex Gibbs classhes with everyone (see broncos, falcons, etc.)...the guy needs to retire for good

bendog
01-19-2011, 02:29 PM
Interesting stuff on Bates:

Jeremy Bates is out as Seahawks offensive coordinator, a move that hints at more trouble beneath the surface in Seattle than Pete Carroll’s perpetually sunny words would indicate.

Bates’ clashes with former offensive line coach Alex Gibbs reportedly caused Gibbs to leave, according to Steve Kelley of the Seattle Times.

Bates was reportedly a “problem from the beginning” because he was too stubborn and didn’t want to mold his system to his player’s talents. The inability to develop Golden Tate also hurt Bates.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/19/seahawks-scrambling-in-offensive-coordinator-search/

I read something similar about how he wanted plays to pass the ball further downfield than their QB's really could pass. He wasn't a fit for their personnel. And USC threw downfield.

TheReverend
01-19-2011, 02:44 PM
Interesting stuff on Bates:

Jeremy Bates is out as Seahawks offensive coordinator, a move that hints at more trouble beneath the surface in Seattle than Pete Carroll’s perpetually sunny words would indicate.

Bates’ clashes with former offensive line coach Alex Gibbs reportedly caused Gibbs to leave, according to Steve Kelley of the Seattle Times.

Bates was reportedly a “problem from the beginning” because he was too stubborn and didn’t want to mold his system to his player’s talents. The inability to develop Golden Tate also hurt Bates.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/19/seahawks-scrambling-in-offensive-coordinator-search/

I'll say this... I have it on a pretttttttttty solid authority that it was just a building personality conflict between Pete Carroll's very laid back players coach approach and Bates' same fiery in your face attitude that got him punched in the face by Marshall.

BroncoInferno
01-19-2011, 02:54 PM
I'll say this... I have it on a pretttttttttty solid authority that it was just a building personality conflict between Pete Carroll's very laid back players coach approach and Bates' same fiery in your face attitude that got him punched in the face by Marshall.

Yeah, but wouldn't Carroll have already known this about Bates since they worked together the previous season at USC?

TheReverend
01-19-2011, 03:18 PM
Yeah, but wouldn't Carroll have already known this about Bates since they worked together the previous season at USC?

Absolutely. I said "building".