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ICON
01-17-2011, 03:55 PM
Is there anyone out there that can help please....

Having an extreme amount of trouble paying back defaulted student loans.

-graduated from college in 07'

-consolidated FFel Loans (now with one collect. agency)

-loan now in defaut and now in collections, want to start repayment and loan rehabilitation--only able to pay so much a month, taxes are being withheld this year, make less than 15k year working 2 jobs, wage garnishment to follow

-called Dept. of Education and was advised that the agency "DCS" (Pleasanton CA) is required to come to a reasonable monthly payment for rehabilitation on my loan under the Higher Education Act.

-"DCS" states they have no control and that "Great Lakes Higher Education"(original lender, WI) has put some sort of minimum on my monthly payments? DCS is unable to give me anything lower and could care less how much I can afford.

-My question is what is true and what is bs, and who is right and who controls the amount of monthly payments to get into rehabilitation- "DCS" OR "GREAT LAKES Higher Educ."

****Check this out telling me minimum is $350 mo. for 25 years doubling my $50K that I really owe into $100k? wtf?

Has anyone experienced this or have gotten thru this--advise?

I understand that it has been my responsibility to pay, however trying to do the right thing now but extremely confusing on where to start?

Loans originated from CA

brncs_fan
01-17-2011, 04:11 PM
The best thing you can do in any situation involving a creditor is to assume that they are lying scum and that they will do anything to get you to pay as much as possible. I would look through my original paperwork on the loan. See if it says anything at all about the loan going into default.

Not sure other that that. Stick with what the Dept. of Ed. told you and harass them every day until they get something worked out with you. Whatever deal you are willing to work out with them make sure that you get a signed copy of the agreement.

Mr. Elway
01-17-2011, 04:51 PM
It sounds like your situation is pretty serious and if I were you I would seriously consider getting some legal advice, even though that will cost you some money. Perhaps bankruptcy is an option, since it sounds like your credit is going to be hurting for a few years anyway. Do you have any friends or family in the legal profession? I bet you could at least have someone assess your situation and options for fairly cheap.

As far as $100k on a $50k principal over 25 years, that's called an extremely low interest rate, and it's the price of borrowing money.

Cosmo
01-17-2011, 05:00 PM
What did you go to school for that you came out making 15k a year (assuming you don't have a job in your field of study or you are just starting out)?

Dr. Broncenstein
01-17-2011, 05:03 PM
15K per year is right around the federal minimum wage, based on a 40 hour work week.

Mogulseeker
01-17-2011, 05:07 PM
I read something like 20 Percent of student loans are defaulting. It's pathetic. I just dont understand... When I was in the Netherlands they wanted me to join their protest because their yearly tuition was going up from like $600 to $900. I still get emails from them asking me to join the fight against high tuition. If they only knew.

I wish I could help bro, but the GI Bill saved my ass. I will say that often times if you join the military, they will take over payments for you.

theAPAOps5
01-17-2011, 05:09 PM
This thread will not end well.

Go back to school then your student loans will be extended, not sure about ones in default.

Of course the negative is that you will get even more in debt.

Tombstone RJ
01-17-2011, 05:11 PM
Is there anyone out there that can help please....

Having an extreme amount of trouble paying back defaulted student loans.

-graduated from college in 07'

-consolidated FFel Loans (now with one collect. agency)

-loan now in defaut and now in collections, want to start repayment and loan rehabilitation--only able to pay so much a month, taxes are being withheld this year, make less than 15k year working 2 jobs, wage garnishment to follow

-called Dept. of Education and was advised that the agency "DCS" (Pleasanton CA) is required to come to a reasonable monthly payment for rehabilitation on my loan under the Higher Education Act.

-"DCS" states they have no control and that "Great Lakes Higher Education"(original lender, WI) has put some sort of minimum on my monthly payments? DCS is unable to give me anything lower and could care less how much I can afford.

-My question is what is true and what is bs, and who is right and who controls the amount of monthly payments to get into rehabilitation- "DCS" OR "GREAT LAKES Higher Educ."

****Check this out telling me minimum is $350 mo. for 25 years doubling my $50K that I really owe into $100k? wtf?

Has anyone experienced this or have gotten thru this--advise?

I understand that it has been my responsibility to pay, however trying to do the right thing now but extremely confusing on where to start?

Loans originated from CA

Bummer dude. Since you consolidated your loans under one agency, I bet they hold all the cards as to how the debt is now collected and it may be out of the fed gov's (or Dept. of Education) jurisdiction or control as to what legal right this loan company to has on collecting its debt. After all, I'm guessing your loan consolidation company has already repaid your original loan amount to the government.

Unfortunately when you refied the loan you might have relinquished your ability to claim it as a "student loan" and therefore you "might" have relinquished any rights associated with paying this student loan back. I'm guessing on all of this.

The fact is, the loan company can't get water out of a rock and if you simply do not have the financial capacity to make the payments it is in their best interest to work with you on the loan. My advice to you is negotiate a loan payment (something you can afford) and get that in writing. Make sure you can make that loan payment come hell or high water (the magic loan payment people always want to make is $250 a month). Once you get that loan payment negotiated, make sure there is NO PRE-PAYMENT PENALTY and that you can pay an additional some towards the principle. That is, if your minimum payment is $250 a month, you want to be able to pay that amount, plus any additional amount you can (let's say an additional $50.00 for a total monthly payment of $300). That extra $50.00 goes right to the principle, thus paying down the loan much quicker.

Negotiate the hell out of this and know your rights. Ask questions and make sure you get a written statement from the loan company. The loan company knows that any payment from you is better than no payment and it does not do you a lick of good to file bankruptcy over this. You are young and trying to build your credit, don't let this loan smash your credit rating too.

Best of luck.

ICON
01-17-2011, 05:15 PM
What did you go to school for that you came out making 15k a year (assuming you don't have a job in your field of study or you are just starting out)?Graphic design

ICON
01-17-2011, 05:16 PM
15K per year is right around the federal minimum wage, based on a 40 hour work week.correct

ICON
01-17-2011, 05:17 PM
I read something like 20 Percent of student loans are defaulting. It's pathetic. I just dont understand... When I was in the Netherlands they wanted me to join their protest because their yearly tuition was going up from like $600 to $900. I still get emails from them asking me to join the fight against high tuition. If they only knew.

I wish I could help bro, but the GI Bill saved my ass. I will say that often times if you join the military, they will take over payments for you.

thanks for your service.

ICON
01-17-2011, 05:18 PM
This thread will not end well.

Go back to school then your student loans will be extended, not sure about ones in default.

Of course the negative is that you will get even more in debt.http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wAxDMfEGhoY/TI6y4IuY8aI/AAAAAAAAAS8/NCjMIHtSW0E/s1600/Not+Sure+if+serious.jpg

cutthemdown
01-17-2011, 05:22 PM
It sounds like your situation is pretty serious and if I were you I would seriously consider getting some legal advice, even though that will cost you some money. Perhaps bankruptcy is an option, since it sounds like your credit is going to be hurting for a few years anyway. Do you have any friends or family in the legal profession? I bet you could at least have someone assess your situation and options for fairly cheap.

As far as $100k on a $50k principal over 25 years, that's called an extremely low interest rate, and it's the price of borrowing money.

can't for student loans

ICON
01-17-2011, 05:22 PM
Bummer dude. Since you consolidated your loans under one agency, I bet they hold all the cards as to how the debt is now collected and it may be out of the fed gov's (or Dept. of Education) jurisdiction or control as to what legal right this loan company to has on collecting its debt. After all, I'm guessing your loan consolidation company has already repaid your original loan amount to the government.

Unfortunately when you refied the loan you might have relinquished your ability to claim it as a "student loan" and therefore you "might" have relinquished any rights associated with paying this student loan back. I'm guessing on all of this.

The fact is, the loan company can't get water out of a rock and if you simply do not have the financial capacity to make the payments it is in their best interest to work with you on the loan. My advice to you is negotiate a loan payment (something you can afford) and get that in writing. Make sure you can make that loan payment come hell or high water (the magic loan payment people always want to make is $250 a month). Once you get that loan payment negotiated, make sure there is NO PRE-PAYMENT PENALTY and that you can pay an additional some towards the principle. That is, if your minimum payment is $250 a month, you want to be able to pay that amount, plus any additional amount you can (let's say an additional $50.00 for a total monthly payment of $300). That extra $50.00 goes right to the principle, thus paying down the loan much quicker.

Negotiate the hell out of this and know your rights. Ask questions and make sure you get a written statement from the loan company. The loan company knows that any payment from you is better than no payment and it does not do you a lick of good to file bankruptcy over this. You are young and trying to build your credit, don't let this loan smash your credit rating too.

Best of luck.Thanks found your post very helpful unfortunately feel like the government is holding me hostage, and will be paying this loan off for the rest of my life.

Tombstone RJ
01-17-2011, 05:26 PM
Thanks found your post very helpful unfortunately feel like the government is holding me hostage, and will be paying this loan off for the rest of my life.

Are you sure it's still a government loan? If so, groovy because I think you have a lot more flexibility in paying the loan(s) back. If it's a private loan then you have problems because the private sector actually expects results and private companies, yah know, are expected to be profitable.

Make sure you know who controls your loan.

Dr. Broncenstein
01-17-2011, 05:48 PM
Honest question: Did you know while pursing your degree that you would be looking at 15k per year after graduation?

Rohirrim
01-17-2011, 05:52 PM
Move to Canada.

OrangeCrush2724
01-17-2011, 05:53 PM
I think the Dept of education is right. They should be able to come up with a monthly payment based upon how much you can afford.

I feel you with the loans. I just graduated last year, and soon my monthly loans if I'm trying to pay off in 10 years are going to be $4,300. ???

baja
01-17-2011, 06:02 PM
Is there anyone out there that can help please....

Having an extreme amount of trouble paying back defaulted student loans.

-graduated from college in 07'

-consolidated FFel Loans (now with one collect. agency)

-loan now in defaut and now in collections, want to start repayment and loan rehabilitation--only able to pay so much a month, taxes are being withheld this year, make less than 15k year working 2 jobs, wage garnishment to follow

-called Dept. of Education and was advised that the agency "DCS" (Pleasanton CA) is required to come to a reasonable monthly payment for rehabilitation on my loan under the Higher Education Act.



-"DCS" states they have no control and that "Great Lakes Higher Education"(original lender, WI) has put some sort of minimum on my monthly payments? DCS is unable to give me anything lower and could care less how much I can afford.

-My question is what is true and what is bps, and who is right and who controls the amount of monthly payments to get into rehabilitation- "DCS" OR "GREAT LAKES Higher Educ."

****Check this out telling me minimum is $350 mo. for 25 years doubling my $50K that I really owe into $100k? wtf?

Has anyone experienced this or have gotten thru this--advise?

I understand that it has been my responsibility to pay, however trying to do the right thing now but extremely confusing on where to start?

Loans originated from CA

You are a victim of the STBOOAMC plan.

There is good news and bad news;

The good news is the whole credit system is broken and is in the process of collapsing in on itself and all debt will be wiped out.


The bad news when it happens you will be wild crafting for your food.



PS,
STBOOAMC = Suck The Blood Our Of American Middle Class.


Sorry you got caught in the rape. Higher education is supposed to equate to a job that pays more than 15 grand. The grand society has failed you dude.

Mr. Elway
01-17-2011, 06:10 PM
Thanks found your post very helpful unfortunately feel like the government is holding me hostage, and will be paying this loan off for the rest of my life.

They certainly have the upper hand on you, but it doesn't have to be a life sentence. With any college degree you certainly have a lot more earning power than 15k, and even though the job market is bleak right now it won't stay that way forever. You could use this as an excuse to reevaluate your career choices and motivate you to find a way to improve your earnings. Pick up another skill, or try for another type of position. I believe that you can find a way to be making somewhere in the 40-50 range inside of 5 years if you really put your mind to it. It's all about being persistent, and then once you find a a way in, making yourself indespensible. Once you are making a bit more money the debt will become a lot more manageable. It's not impossible - a lot of people have done this.

rugbythug
01-17-2011, 06:15 PM
You Borrowed 50K. Now you have to pay it back. Sucks that your Job is so terrible. But You do have to pay the Piper. And a 25 year Repayment Period is going to cost you interest. You have to pay to play. Should have gone to Community College then Transferred to the Expensive State College as a Senior and Graduate. Worked for me.

Mr. Elway
01-17-2011, 06:47 PM
Should have gone to Community College then Transferred to the Expensive State College as a Senior and Graduate. Worked for me.

That depends on whether you are talking about owing less money, or having enough education to know when to capitalize words. :clown:

WolfpackGuy
01-17-2011, 06:53 PM
Go see your local military recruiter or apply for the Chippendales.

Cmac821
01-17-2011, 06:58 PM
Can't wait to get my own student loans, yay out of state tuition!

/sarcasm

Tombstone RJ
01-17-2011, 07:27 PM
Is there anyone out there that can help please....

Having an extreme amount of trouble paying back defaulted student loans.

-graduated from college in 07'

-consolidated FFel Loans (now with one collect. agency)

-loan now in defaut and now in collections, want to start repayment and loan rehabilitation--only able to pay so much a month, taxes are being withheld this year, make less than 15k year working 2 jobs, wage garnishment to follow

-called Dept. of Education and was advised that the agency "DCS" (Pleasanton CA) is required to come to a reasonable monthly payment for rehabilitation on my loan under the Higher Education Act.

-"DCS" states they have no control and that "Great Lakes Higher Education"(original lender, WI) has put some sort of minimum on my monthly payments? DCS is unable to give me anything lower and could care less how much I can afford.

-My question is what is true and what is bs, and who is right and who controls the amount of monthly payments to get into rehabilitation- "DCS" OR "GREAT LAKES Higher Educ."

****Check this out telling me minimum is $350 mo. for 25 years doubling my $50K that I really owe into $100k? wtf?

Has anyone experienced this or have gotten thru this--advise?

I understand that it has been my responsibility to pay, however trying to do the right thing now but extremely confusing on where to start?

Loans originated from CA

One more thing broseff, there can be no wage garnishment unless the loan company takes you to court and wins a judgement against you. If they are threatening a wage garnishment I tend to think that this is NOT a Dept. of Education loan. It sounds like a private loan where the collection agency is trying to scare you a little.

Again, find out who you actually owe the money to. If it's a private loan company then they have to take you to court to garnish your wages, if it's the fed. gov, I'm not sure they have the legal right to garnish your wages.

rugbythug
01-17-2011, 08:20 PM
That depends on whether you are talking about owing less money, or having enough education to know when to capitalize words. :clown:

Bad habit. Too many bullet point memos

t-diddy
01-17-2011, 08:53 PM
How about putting effort into figuring out how to repay the loan instead of worrying about all the details and technicalities to prolong it. 15K a year working two jobs? Not to be a dick but if i were you i would get different jobs. Or get a third, or fourth, or whatever it takes. Work 3 or 4 nights a week serving at an IHOP... $50 per shift, ~$200 per week, ~$800 per month and put all of it toward your loan. Re-evaluate your lifestyle and get rid of things that you don't have to have. Do side work wherever you can find it.... the bottom line is 25K is not that much money when you put your mind to it.

Archer81
01-17-2011, 08:56 PM
How about putting effort into figuring out how to repay the loan instead of worrying about all the details and technicalities to prolong it. 15K a year working two jobs? Not to be a dick but if i were you i would get different jobs. Or get a third, or fourth, or whatever it takes. Work 3 or 4 nights a week serving at an IHOP... $50 per shift, ~$200 per week, ~$800 per month and put all of it toward your loan. Re-evaluate your lifestyle and get rid of things that you don't have to have. Do side work wherever you can find it.... the bottom line is 25K is not that much money when you put your mind to it.


It is when you only make 15k in a year. Without reading the entire thread (yet) it sounds like two part time jobs he has.

:Broncos:

ØrangeÇrush
01-17-2011, 08:58 PM
Join the Navy, I've got two Sailors that work for me that both have Graphic Design degrees.

Archer81
01-17-2011, 09:00 PM
Can't wait to get my own student loans, yay out of state tuition!

/sarcasm


I am eternally greatful that I am a Colorado resident...cutting tuition bills nearly in half is pretty ****ing awesome. Even though today I watched $250 get raped out of my pocket for two books...one for literature and one for humanities...$150 for a book? Book better offer a handy...****.


:Broncos:

t-diddy
01-17-2011, 09:01 PM
It is when you only make 15k in a year. Without reading the entire thread (yet) it sounds like two part time jobs he has.

:Broncos:

He wasn't real clear on his income sources... my point is more that he needs to bolt from whatever he is doing that is only paying him 15K a year and do something/anything else to make money. There are plenty of jobs that pay more than that per year and still afford you the ability to pick up something at night.

Archer81
01-17-2011, 09:06 PM
He wasn't real clear on his income sources... my point is more that he needs to bolt from whatever he is doing that is only paying him 15K a year and do something/anything else to make money. There are plenty of jobs that pay more than that per year and still afford you the ability to pick up something at night.


I think we both agree he needs to find a better paying job, but right now that may not be feasible for him. But having to work three jobs JUST to break even is akin to slavery. He does not live to work, even to pay off student loans. It sounds like the "best" option, short of winning powerball is to declare bankruptcy. If he can't pay the loans his credit is going to suffer anyway. At least this way he can rebuild his credit relatively quickly rather than shoestringing himself into the forseeable future.

:Broncos:

loborugger
01-17-2011, 09:19 PM
Doesnt the Peace Corps and Military pay off school debts?

t-diddy
01-17-2011, 09:36 PM
I think we both agree he needs to find a better paying job, but right now that may not be feasible for him. But having to work three jobs JUST to break even is akin to slavery. He does not live to work, even to pay off student loans. It sounds like the "best" option, short of winning powerball is to declare bankruptcy. If he can't pay the loans his credit is going to suffer anyway. At least this way he can rebuild his credit relatively quickly rather than shoestringing himself into the forseeable future.

:Broncos:

I could be wrong but i don't think you can include student loans in a bankrupcy...

Rebuild his credit quickly? 7 years minimum... I think sucking it up for two years would be preferable.

Little dramatic to compare earning enough money to pay your bills to "slavery" but ok... My point, again, was to look for ways to earn money to pay the bills that he has incurred. What a crazy concept...

Archer81
01-17-2011, 09:45 PM
I could be wrong but i don't think you can include student loans in a bankrupcy...

Rebuild his credit quickly? 7 years minimum... I think sucking it up for two years would be preferable.

Little dramatic to compare earning enough money to pay your bills to "slavery" but ok... My point, again, was to look for ways to earn money to pay the bills that he has incurred. What a crazy concept...


Working four jobs, as you originally stated would mean he is simply working to pay off his bills. Which in effect makes him a slave to his bills. I dont believe I advocated he simply ignore it. Bankruptcy is one suggestion out of many based on incomplete knowledge of his financial situation. You are proposing he cut luxuries and buckle down...which makes me wonder about your concept of how far 15k can possibly go. Lets just say for ****s and giggles he lives on his own and pays rent @ 800/mo. Thats $9600 a year. Lets say he has utilities that come in around $300/mo. There goes another $3600 a year. So far thats $13,200 a year in just rent and utilities. What if he needs to drive to work? Eat? Gets sick? Has credit cards?

It severely limits his ability to pay the tuition to just make $15k. So his options are likewise limited. He can't knock over a bank, its highly unlikely he will score a lotto win. So what does he do other than get a higher paying job. He would have to double what he makes yearly to cover his student loans in the 2 year time frame you proposed.

:Broncos:

t-diddy
01-17-2011, 10:07 PM
Working four jobs, as you originally stated would mean he is simply working to pay off his bills. Which in effect makes him a slave to his bills. I dont believe I advocated he simply ignore it. Bankruptcy is one suggestion out of many based on incomplete knowledge of his financial situation. You are proposing he cut luxuries and buckle down...which makes me wonder about your concept of how far 15k can possibly go. Lets just say for ****s and giggles he lives on his own and pays rent @ 800/mo. Thats $9600 a year. Lets say he has utilities that come in around $300/mo. There goes another $3600 a year. So far thats $13,200 a year in just rent and utilities. What if he needs to drive to work? Eat? Gets sick? Has credit cards?

It severely limits his ability to pay the tuition to just make $15k. So his options are likewise limited. He can't knock over a bank, its highly unlikely he will score a lotto win. So what does he do other than get a higher paying job. He would have to double what he makes yearly to cover his student loans in the 2 year time frame you proposed.

:Broncos:

I think you are making assumptions that are different from the assumptions that i am making. Maybe you know him? Maybe he's a friend of yours? I don't know... but you seem to lean to the side of giving him the benefit of the doubt.

If he works a full time job (40 hrs/wk) and a part time job (20hrs/wk) at minimum wage he'll make $22,620 a year. That is significantly higher than his current income. Combine that with any spending cuts that he can make (all of us have stuff we can cut back on) and he would be well on his way to paying them back.

I'm not trying to be a prick, just floating options from a guy that asked for help. Not sure why this rubbed you the wrong way.

Tombstone RJ
01-17-2011, 10:15 PM
I have a hard time beliver the OP is working two jobs and only making $15k a year too, especially with a graphics design degree. Are you telling me he can't do some kind of freelance work and earn more money than that??

Hard to believe but ok.

BroncoBuff
01-17-2011, 10:23 PM
I found out a couple years ago that two of my law school classmates walked away from the debt. They just dropped out of the credit system ... one had to divorce her husband (on paper) to save his rating.

bigbucks24
01-17-2011, 10:41 PM
I could be wrong but i don't think you can include student loans in a bankrupcy...

Rebuild his credit quickly? 7 years minimum... I think sucking it up for two years would be preferable.

Little dramatic to compare earning enough money to pay your bills to "slavery" but ok... My point, again, was to look for ways to earn money to pay the bills that he has incurred. What a crazy concept...

I think the point T is trying to make is there is no way possible that currently he is working more than 40 hours a week. At minimum wage, 40 hours is $15,080. Asking him to pick a part time job (20 hours a week) to total 60 hours a week is by no means slavery. If it is, I've been a slave for 35 years. No one is suggesting that he work 120 hours a week. But 50-60 is not unreasonable.

t-diddy
01-17-2011, 10:45 PM
I think the point T is trying to make is there is no way possible that currently he is working more than 40 hours a week. At minimum wage, 40 hours is $15,080. Asking him to pick a part time job (20 hours a week) to total 60 hours a week is by no means slavery. If it is, I've been a slave for 35 years. No one is suggesting that he work 120 hours a week. But 50-60 is not unreasonable.

This.

Pony Boy
01-18-2011, 07:17 AM
I found out a couple years ago that two of my law school classmates walked away from the debt. They just dropped out of the credit system ... one had to divorce her husband (on paper) to save his rating.

You get others to pay for your education and then you walk away, what's the difference between that and embezzling at work or robbing a bank.

edog24
01-18-2011, 07:53 AM
I would involve legal counsel that has experience dealing with fed loans. If you try to negotiate on your own you will get owned. That's about all I have to contribute.

Miss I.
01-18-2011, 08:01 AM
Just out of curiosity, did you try agencies like Sallie Mae? they did my student loans and I have pretty low repayment, though I also had about half as much to pay off as you did. There usually are ways to deferments on payments which I've had to do with no impact to my credit. There are some employers that will pay yoru student loans if you sign an agreement to stay a certain time. The US Government does that for some things, but usually those are technical degrees like engineering, but you could check.

That One Guy
01-18-2011, 08:03 AM
Plan in advance.

Don't rack up $50K in loans for an undergrad degree, ensure the field you're going into is profitable, and know that you have to pay the piper someday. Just as we all railed against the chick who racked up loans on a degree from NYU or something in women's studies and couldn't pay her loans... have a plan.

As for the helpful part of my post - bite the bullet, join the military.

Smiling Assassin27
01-18-2011, 08:13 AM
One more thing broseff, there can be no wage garnishment unless the loan company takes you to court and wins a judgement against you. If they are threatening a wage garnishment I tend to think that this is NOT a Dept. of Education loan. It sounds like a private loan where the collection agency is trying to scare you a little.

Again, find out who you actually owe the money to. If it's a private loan company then they have to take you to court to garnish your wages, if it's the fed. gov, I'm not sure they have the legal right to garnish your wages.

I agree with this. And to add, if a company hauls you to court for a judgment, you'd best show up and explain the situation. Do not avoid it. In all likelihood, the judge will refer you both to mediation, recommend a modification of payment terms, or invite you both to step into the hall and reach an agreement on repayment before he/she would slap a jugment on you.

First suggestion is to always go back and read your original documents. Second suggestion is to document EVERY single communication with and by the lender--names, dates, subjects covered, everything. If the collector gets abusive, write it all down. Third suggestion is to remain calm. Nobody's going to jail and it's highly unlikely you'll have wages taken. There may be some credit dings but there are ways to rebuild that. Finally, take a legitimate look at your budget and finances so you can make a realisitic proposal for repayment based on actual numbers, not wishful thinking. There's no magic solution, so grind it out but do give the debt its just due.