PDA

View Full Version : tebow


peacepipe
01-14-2011, 05:22 PM
How much time does tebow get 1,2, or 3 more yrs to show definatively that he's the future of this franchise?
Personally, I think he gets this comming yr to prove it eitherway. Elway,Fox & Bowlen aren't IMO going to have the patience to give him more than that.

BroncosMT
01-14-2011, 05:24 PM
At least 2 more years.....he is going to be learning a new offense and then the second year will be his defining moment......i remember hearing the maturing process of a qb taking at least 3 years.

peacepipe
01-14-2011, 05:29 PM
At least 2 more years.....he is going to be learning a new offense and then the second year will be his defining moment......i remember hearing the maturing process of a qb taking at least 3 years.I wouldn't be so sure about that new offense,especially if they keep McCoy? It's 2011 QBs don't get that 3 yr window.

epicSocialism4tw
01-14-2011, 05:31 PM
He'll have two more years.

Tebow is a 1st-round rookie QB, and those rookie QB's typically get a few years. Tebow has had three games.

Sit back and enjoy the ride.

Jay3
01-14-2011, 05:31 PM
This coming year.

Jay3
01-14-2011, 05:32 PM
Tebow will be judged by a different, stricter standard than other players.

He will also render silly most of the talk about him this past, and hand-wringing about him going now. IMO.

KevinJames
01-14-2011, 05:38 PM
One year.

If he sucks get luck period.

Garcia Bronco
01-14-2011, 05:50 PM
he's already proved himself. If he only gets a year then the new leadership is dum er than a bag of hammers.

Man-Goblin
01-14-2011, 05:57 PM
We'll know after this year. If Tebow is god awful (no pun intended!), they'll be in position to draft a QBOTF and should do so.

ZONA
01-14-2011, 05:58 PM
I don't think there is definite window. A young QB has to show signs and show progress throughout the season. You know there will be some bad quarters and even a bad game here and there. What you don't want to see is a backwards trend of having several bad games in a row, with alot of mistakes. I don't even think QB's these days get the full 1st year if they are playing really bad and not showing signs of improving or at least getting a few wins here and there. Look at the kid out of BYU who played for the Cards this year. He was brought in after Anderson was looking like crap, and they let this kid get 3 or 4 games in and they didn't like what they saw so he's done. If Tebow would have looked like complete crap, I'd doubt he would get consideration even next year. The fact he's made some good plays, he's buying himself more time. Same thing will go for next year. If he keeps making good plays and can minimize the mistakes, he keeps buying himself more time. And that's important because it's not just game time he's buying, it's the majority of reps with the starters in practice. It can be very difficult for a young QB to improve with reps on the 2nd team and sitting on the bench during games.

Jay3
01-14-2011, 06:06 PM
I think young quarterbacks almost always look good right out of the gate, if they are indeed good. They might not always win, and they make mistakes, but they look pretty good from the get-go.

Just about every example of a quarterback where we were asked to accept that they were good, it just didn't show yet, turned out to be a fail-stench in disguise. Kyle Boller. David Carr. Joey Harrington.

I can't think of one who looked genuinely bad and was later awesome. Even Peyton looked good in a statistically rough year. Or take Sam Bradford -- statisically, he kind of stank this year. But to the trained eye, he looked good right away.

Dedhed
01-14-2011, 06:11 PM
He'll prove himself a legitimate NFL quarterback long before the window of opportunity closes on him.

epicSocialism4tw
01-14-2011, 06:23 PM
he's already proved himself. If he only gets a year then the new leadership is dum er than a bag of hammers.

The past few years havent been too hot, so my expectations are low.

Tebow did look fantastic for a "project" rook in his first three games. If he pulled that off over the course of his first season, he would have been a slam-dunk rookie of the year.

epicSocialism4tw
01-14-2011, 06:25 PM
I don't think there is definite window. A young QB has to show signs and show progress throughout the season. You know there will be some bad quarters and even a bad game here and there. What you don't want to see is a backwards trend of having several bad games in a row, with alot of mistakes. I don't even think QB's these days get the full 1st year if they are playing really bad and not showing signs of improving or at least getting a few wins here and there. Look at the kid out of BYU who played for the Cards this year. He was brought in after Anderson was looking like crap, and they let this kid get 3 or 4 games in and they didn't like what they saw so he's done. If Tebow would have looked like complete crap, I'd doubt he would get consideration even next year. The fact he's made some good plays, he's buying himself more time. Same thing will go for next year. If he keeps making good plays and can minimize the mistakes, he keeps buying himself more time. And that's important because it's not just game time he's buying, it's the majority of reps with the starters in practice. It can be very difficult for a young QB to improve with reps on the 2nd team and sitting on the bench during games.

Didnt Max Hall get hurt? He's not a rookie either. Skelton was the rook.

But you made a good point about not regressing. But Tebow is so polarizing that the minute he has a bad game, the wave of criticism will hit hard.

He doesnt have the same luxury of the "this guy's a rookie, give him time to work out his mistakes" patient waiting game...with the fans at least.

BroncosMT
01-14-2011, 06:27 PM
Didnt Max Hall get hurt? He's not a rookie either. Skelton was the rook.

But you made a good point about not regressing. But Tebow is so polarizing that the minute he has a bad game, the wave of criticism will hit hard.

Hall was a rookie this year

epicSocialism4tw
01-14-2011, 06:29 PM
Hall was a rookie this year

Ah...I got it...he was an undrafted free agent. I didnt see him in their draft picks.

Thanks for the correction.

Thats pretty good that he moved ahead of Skelton on the depth chart if he's a UDFA.

2KBack
01-14-2011, 06:33 PM
I think young quarterbacks almost always look good right out of the gate, if they are indeed good. They might not always win, and they make mistakes, but they look pretty good from the get-go.

Just about every example of a quarterback where we were asked to accept that they were good, it just didn't show yet, turned out to be a fail-stench in disguise. Kyle Boller. David Carr. Joey Harrington.

I can't think of one who looked genuinely bad and was later awesome. Even Peyton looked good in a statistically rough year. Or take Sam Bradford -- statisically, he kind of stank this year. But to the trained eye, he looked good right away.

http://www.footblog.com/images/drew_brees.jpg

bombay
01-14-2011, 06:33 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_17089779

Jeff Legwold on Elway, Fox, and Tebow.

BroncosMT
01-14-2011, 06:34 PM
Ah...I got it...he was an undrafted free agent. I didnt see him in their draft picks.

Thanks for the correction.

Thats pretty good that he moved ahead of Skelton on the depth chart if he's a UDFA.

No worries.....there were some comparisons between Hall and Warner....but I'm sure he won't get a shot next year....they will bring in a vet....I think he has some talent and with a decent line could develop....I think we live in a society where we want instant gratification and we tend at times to forget how little play time and snaps guys get....I think Tebow needs to get at least 2 years under his belt before he is written off.

Jay3
01-14-2011, 06:36 PM
Dree Brees looked good in San Diego, to my eye. Never saw him where I said to myself "this kid can't play." I was surprised when San Diego drafted Eli Manning, and assumed they thought they had an Andrew Luck type talent on their hands.

The good ones may struggle statistically sometimes, but they seem decent right away.

(I mean the ones that belong in the league).

epicSocialism4tw
01-14-2011, 06:55 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_17089779

Jeff Legwold on Elway, Fox, and Tebow.

These guys are just trying to stir controversy because they know that the "Tebow might not be the starter" storyline is what gets everyone riled up.

Here's the quote that theyre spinning into the above storyline:

"He's in a developmental stage for sure, but I think he has the makings to be as good as he wants to be."
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_17089779#ixzz1B4ILwO7f

When you couple that with Fox's statement that Tebow impressed Fox with his willingness to put the work in, it sounds like Fox is sold on Tebow...because Tebow obviously does everything the coach asks in preparation.

In the Xanders interview, he said that the thing that sold he and McD on Tebow is that Tebow knew offense like an assistant coach. He knew the plays, the sets, the reads, etc., and he picked up the Broncos' complicated offense immediately.

Tebow is mentally prepared like Peyton Manning.

When Tebow starts practicing full-time with the first team, he'll grow and grow. He has already worked his foot in the door, and I dont see him slowing down now.

Archer81
01-14-2011, 06:57 PM
This thread is making me giggle.


:Broncos:

lostknight
01-14-2011, 07:15 PM
Tebow's already judged on a different level then other quarterbacks. While it's not real fair to do the comparison on the basis of just a few games, he had a higher passer rating then any other drafted QB, more rushing yards then Vick in his rookie debut, more YPA then any rookie since Marino.

He gets a year to show improvement.

Taco John
01-14-2011, 07:21 PM
15

frerottenextelway
01-14-2011, 07:27 PM
He'll be the starting QB until he retires at age 40.

Then, he'll take over for a retiring Coach Fox.

Jay3
01-14-2011, 07:59 PM
He'll be the starting QB until he retires at age 40.

Then, he'll take over for a retiring Coach Fox.

No, Coach Fox goes ahead and retires when Tebow is 35. Tebow player-coaches for 5 more years before retiring to just head coaching.

Possibly continues some sort of kicking duties until age 50.

Bronco Yoda
01-14-2011, 08:02 PM
Tebow will have as long as Tebow says he'll have.

MacGruder
01-14-2011, 09:09 PM
The thing that worries me is I hear everyone including Elway and Fox say how Tebow still has so much work to do in adapting to the NFL. But what about guys like Elway and Fox adapting to him? I think Tebow can play his unique brand of football and dominate in this league. But do they know how to utilize him in this fashion?

I think McD and Bellichick would have known how to use him because they knew the system he came out of in college so well. I don't feel confident about anyone else in the NFL at this point. when Urban Meyer lost his offensive coordinator in Dan Mullen I felt like even he struggled to know how to utilize Tim to his full potential. That might have even cost him a 3rd championship.

Archer81
01-14-2011, 10:18 PM
The thing that worries me is I hear everyone including Elway and Fox say how Tebow still has so much work to do in adapting to the NFL. But what about guys like Elway and Fox adapting to him? I think Tebow can play his unique brand of football and dominate in this league. But do they know how to utilize him in this fashion?

I think McD and Bellichick would have known how to use him because they knew the system he came out of in college so well. I don't feel confident about anyone else in the NFL at this point. when Urban Meyer lost his offensive coordinator in Dan Mullen I felt like even he struggled to know how to utilize Tim to his full potential. That might have even cost him a 3rd championship.


http://tinyurl.com/25yg4ja

:Broncos:

MacGruder
01-14-2011, 10:56 PM
It's ironic you are making fun of my conspiracies when you have your own little red scare going here obviously..

:bronxrox:

Archer81
01-14-2011, 11:21 PM
It's ironic you are making fun of my conspiracies when you have your own little red scare going here obviously..

:bronxrox:


Yeah...

Denethor wants his crazy pills back, FYI.


:Broncos:

MacGruder
01-14-2011, 11:41 PM
So any time I post now are you going to make these stupid comments and post these retarded pictures?

Is that my persecution?

Should I persecute you in response for some belief of yours I disagree with?

enjolras
01-15-2011, 12:15 AM
The thing that worries me is I hear everyone including Elway and Fox say how Tebow still has so much work to do in adapting to the NFL. But what about guys like Elway and Fox adapting to him? I think Tebow can play his unique brand of football and dominate in this league. But do they know how to utilize him in this fashion?

That's why I'm excited at the prospect of retaining McCoy. Aside from his first start, I really like the gameplans that McCoy put together. I think he understands what he has in Tebow, and the prospect of a more run-oriented attack will play really well with what they want Tebow to do. In short, I think McCoy 'gets it'.

I also think we'll see the Broncos move back to a zone-blocking scheme. It just makes sense on basically every level. That fits our personnel pretty well (Walton might be a bit of a question mark, although I think he's athletic enough). It also opens up some really interesting inside running options for Tebow + running backs.

Requiem
01-15-2011, 12:31 AM
Getting another back in here to go with Moreno will make our offense much more effective and give Tim a better chance to succeed. He will still have plenty of opportunities to do some unique things. If he could manage 200 yards passing a game and help contribute to a solid rushing attack and make marginal turnovers, so be it. I want more balance in our offense. He is a dynamic player though and Randall Cunningham is gonna be saying like whaaaaaaaaaaaaat.

MacGruder
01-15-2011, 12:35 AM
Hi enjolras. I agree with you that if McCoy stays it could be a big help. Like Tebow it is hard to know too much about McCoy from such a small sample size though. But Orton seemed to struggle a lot when McD left. So I don't know what that means either. Just having that stability on offense of keeping McCoy could be beneficial.

I like your focus on improving the running game, too. People don't realize it but Tebow was very underrated as a runner in college. He never had a good inside runner playing with him. With a strong run game people could be blown away by his ability. And that will just make his passing transition that much easier. But will Elway and Fox let him use that ability. I hope people see that a running QB in this era built like Tebow really isn't in any more danger than sitting in the pocket if you don't have a dominant offensive line or a genius offensive guru.

peacepipe
01-15-2011, 07:35 AM
The thing that worries me is I hear everyone including Elway and Fox say how Tebow still has so much work to do in adapting to the NFL. But what about guys like Elway and Fox adapting to him? I think Tebow can play his unique brand of football and dominate in this league. But do they know how to utilize him in this fashion?

I think McD and Bellichick would have known how to use him because they knew the system he came out of in college so well. I don't feel confident about anyone else in the NFL at this point. when Urban Meyer lost his offensive coordinator in Dan Mullen I felt like even he struggled to know how to utilize Tim to his full potential. That might have even cost him a 3rd championship.not going to happen, The spread option doesn't work in the NFL. Tebow is going to have to learn to be a QB. If elway wanted a HC that would adapt to the QB he wouldn't have hired fox.

Agamemnon
01-15-2011, 07:44 AM
not going to happen, The spread offense doesn't work in the NFL. Tebow is going to have to learn to be a QB. If elway wanted a HC that would adapt to the QB he wouldn't have hired fox.

The spread offense doesn't work in the NFL? You do realize that the highest scoring offense in NFL history was just a modified version of the spread offense right? Or do you mean the spread option?

peacepipe
01-15-2011, 07:56 AM
The spread offense doesn't work in the NFL? You do realize that the highest scoring offense in NFL history was just a modified version of the spread offense right? Or do you mean the spread option?

ny bad, I meant option.

Gutless Drunk
01-15-2011, 08:00 AM
Tebow gets 37 games. If he can't get us to the playoffs after that it will have been proven conclusively that he is not a "winner" and he must be traded.

Archer81
01-15-2011, 09:57 AM
So any time I post now are you going to make these stupid comments and post these retarded pictures?

Is that my persecution?
Should I persecute you in response for some belief of yours I disagree with?

1st bolded: Yes.

2nd bolded: You are not being persecuted. Simmer down Sybil.

3rd Bolded: Its a message board. If you dont have a sense of humor, then I dont know what to tell you.

:Broncos:

MacGruder
01-16-2011, 02:48 PM
not going to happen, The spread option doesn't work in the NFL. Tebow is going to have to learn to be a QB. If elway wanted a HC that would adapt to the QB he wouldn't have hired fox.

Bellichick uses the same kind of system and is very successful with it. Tebow actually makes Belichick's finesse offense dominant because he provides the dominant run game that is the weakness of that system.

But you don't have to go entirely Tebow's way.. it should be some kind of medium ground. Steve Young said Tebow could revolutionize the NFL with his unique abilities. To do that I think the coach has to be creative and adapt to him as he adapts to the NFL.

Oh.. and Jacksonville uses the option with Garrard who I doubt is as talented as Tebow.

MacGruder
01-16-2011, 02:52 PM
1st bolded: Yes.

2nd bolded: You are not being persecuted. Simmer down Sybil.

3rd Bolded: Its a message board. If you dont have a sense of humor, then I dont know what to tell you.

:Broncos:

As long as it's all in fun I don't care.. but it is a serious matter too... I don't really like to mock fate. Be careful!

scttgrd
01-16-2011, 02:58 PM
Tebow will be a mess. I don't see what most see in him. Great college QB, but how many guys have had that claim and failed.

schaaf
01-16-2011, 03:17 PM
Tebow will be a mess. I don't see what most see in him. Great college QB, but how many guys have had that claim and failed.

Did you see others around him performance rise?

Did you see the points per game rise?

Did you see him being able to make a play out of nothing?

Those last three games I never thought we were out of it.

epicSocialism4tw
01-16-2011, 03:22 PM
Tebow will be a mess. I don't see what most see in him. Great college QB, but how many guys have had that claim and failed.

Tebows last college football game was January 2, 2010.

He has been a pro for over a year.

During that time, he has supplanted a starting QB and has become the starting QB of an NFL franchise.

He is the player that an NFL franchise is by all appearances looking to build upon for the future.

So you're probably one of a handfull of remaining haters hanging on to the bitter hope that Tebow fails. Like he does over and over again, expect that he proves you wrong on every account. Its his MO.

MacGruder
01-16-2011, 03:40 PM
Tebow will be a mess. I don't see what most see in him. Great college QB, but how many guys have had that claim and failed.

What kind of logic is this though? You could take Tebow off the Gators and put him on a bad team and he would have been just as great without the national championships.

Also, those other players you talk about weren't as good AND most of them didn't do it in this SEC or this era in college where there is so much parity. Tebow was even underrated in college because people assumed his team was great and it really wasn't. He was carrying them.

scttgrd
01-16-2011, 03:41 PM
Tebows last college football game was January 2, 2010.

He has been a pro for over a year.

During that time, he has supplanted a starting QB and has become the starting QB of an NFL franchise.

He is the player that an NFL franchise is by all appearances looking to build upon for the future.

So you're probably one of a handfull of remaining haters hanging on to the bitter hope that Tebow fails. Like he does over and over again, expect that he proves you wrong on every account. Its his MO.

I guess time will tell, hard work and will to win is fine when half the players you face will be selling insurance this year. Tommy Frasier looked all world, till he came to the NFL. If, and I mean if Tebow can get his motion and accuracy worked out then he might have a chance. But 50% completions for the golden boy won't work.

MacGruder
01-16-2011, 03:47 PM
I guess time will tell, hard work and will to win is fine when half the players you face will be selling insurance this year. Tommy Frasier looked all world, till he came to the NFL

do you know how big Tommy Frazier was? He wrighed about 40 lbs less than Tebow. He didn't play in the SEC. I will admit that in the past you are right.. teams were loaded and this caused their players to be overrated. But we have never seen the parity in college we do now.

If, and I mean if Tebow can get his motion and accuracy worked out then he might have a chance. But 50% completions for the golden boy won't work.

Mike Vick had that % until this year and he was successful. But you are using 3 game sin horrible circumstances. he also had a great YPA unlike the dink and dunk passers of this era. Also, Tebow has the same motion as Favre.. ho was arguably the greatest QB ever. Holmgren said he didn't even know you had to mess with Tebow's motion.

scttgrd
01-16-2011, 03:54 PM
do you know how big Tommy Frazier was? He wrighed about 40 lbs less than Tebow. He didn't play in the SEC. I will admit that in the past you are right.. teams were loaded and this caused their players to be overrated. But we have never seen the parity in college we do now.



Mike Vick had that % until this year and he was successful. But you are using 3 game sin horrible circumstances. he also had a great YPA unlike the dink and dunk passers of this era. Also, Tebow has the same motion as Favre.. ho was arguably the greatest QB ever. Holmgren said he didn't even know you had to mess with Tebow's motion.

And Vick got worked in the playoffs, even though he has a much better throwing motion than Tebow. Even McDaniels started with a 6-0 record, it will be fun to watch but there will be no late season success for Tebow.

He will get hit, and he might truck a guy or two. But at some point he is going to be hurt.

bendog
01-16-2011, 03:57 PM
The thing that worries me is I hear everyone including Elway and Fox say how Tebow still has so much work to do in adapting to the NFL. But what about guys like Elway and Fox adapting to him? I think Tebow can play his unique brand of football and dominate in this league. But do they know how to utilize him in this fashion?

I think McD and Bellichick would have known how to use him because they knew the system he came out of in college so well. I don't feel confident about anyone else in the NFL at this point. when Urban Meyer lost his offensive coordinator in Dan Mullen I felt like even he struggled to know how to utilize Tim to his full potential. That might have even cost him a 3rd championship.

yes, the pats run urban meyers offense. I swear to Jesus I'm ****ing watching that right now. Of course I hear the same voices you do. really

MacGruder
01-16-2011, 04:03 PM
And Vick got worked in the playoffs, even though he has a much better throwing motion than Tebow. Even McDaniels started with a 6-0 record, it will be fun to watch but there will be no late season success for Tebow.

Vick got hit in the pocket.. he got injured in the pocket. Him not running enough may have been why he got injured. Also, Vick is tiny too. He is the one like Frazier, not Tebow. He weighs 40 lbs less than Tebow too.

He will get hit, and he might truck a guy or two. But at some point he is going to be hurt.

So are pocket QBs.. so what is your point? His running ability seems to help him in the pocket IMO.

I think the pocket is the most dangerous place to be in this era. With Tebow's size he would be a fool not to use his running ability. He is a very very smart runner too. He runs into open spaces and slips big hits.

scttgrd
01-16-2011, 04:04 PM
How long do you think receivers will be in Tebows camp if he continues throwing balls 10 yards over their heads? His throws bounce or sail.

schaaf
01-16-2011, 04:22 PM
When Tebow gets to actually practice with the first team they won't be sailing over their head.

MacGruder
01-16-2011, 04:23 PM
How long do you think receivers will be in Tebows camp if he continues throwing balls 10 yards over their heads? His throws bounce or sail.

Please try to understand this. You couldn't do what Tebow did in college if he wasn't a passer. If Tebow was just a runner who couldn't pass then that means you could take any runner and do what he did.

It's Tebow being an elite level passer that opened his running so much.The only thing different about him is that he is a great downfield passer. Most passers in this era are great short throwers but weak downfield passers. He's just reversed in that way.


Tim Tebow started Denver’s final three games and finished with the highest passer rating (82.1) among the eight NFL rookies that opened a game in 2010, while registering the most rushing yards (199) over a quarterback’s first three starts since the 1970 merger.

oubronco
01-16-2011, 05:01 PM
If it weren't for Lloyd and his miraculous catches Tebow wouldn't have such good numbers just sayin

Archer81
01-16-2011, 05:03 PM
As long as it's all in fun I don't care.. but it is a serious matter too... I don't really like to mock fate. Be careful!


http://tinyurl.com/4exyn8e


:Broncos:

BroncoMan4ever
01-16-2011, 06:34 PM
I wouldn't be so sure about that new offense,especially if they keep McCoy? It's 2011 QBs don't get that 3 yr window.

the offense will be different. McCoy was OC in title only under McD, had no authority, and it was strictly McD offense and playcalling. that will change to what Fox runs.

MacGruder
01-16-2011, 07:14 PM
If it weren't for Lloyd and his miraculous catches Tebow wouldn't have such good numbers just sayin

People are always going to have some excuse for Tebow's success.

scttgrd
01-16-2011, 07:39 PM
People are always going to have some excuse for Tebow's success.

We will see Tebow soon enough, I look forward to the new and unique excuses for his lack of production. I also look forward to the many ways the Tebow crowd twist themselves into knots looking for positive things to say about their boy.

MacGruder
01-16-2011, 08:07 PM
We will see Tebow soon enough, I look forward to the new and unique excuses for his lack of production. I also look forward to the many ways the Tebow crowd twist themselves into knots looking for positive things to say about their boy.

I don't think you could make a more backwards statement. He dominated the toughest competition in football like no one before.

If anyone needs some creative defense it's someone like Orton who has really never accomplished anything in his entire career. Tebow has already outplayed Orton who has somehow achieved a veteran NFL status.

bombay
01-16-2011, 08:20 PM
I hope Tebow is able to mold himself into an NFL QB, with the ability to go through progressions and get the ball off quickly. As Elway and Fox have both noted, he's a very good football player and quite raw as a QB.

OABB
01-16-2011, 08:24 PM
We will see Tebow soon enough, I look forward to the new and unique excuses for his lack of production. I also look forward to the many ways the Tebow crowd twist themselves into knots looking for positive things to say about their boy.

25 ppg, 17 point comeback, tds in every game, and he did it all against two of the top defenses in only his first three starts. Whose twisting? You are really trying too hard, and your not hiding your agenda well at all. Go take a deep breath and try again.

MacGruder
01-16-2011, 09:05 PM
I hope Tebow is able to mold himself into an NFL QB, with the ability to go through progressions and get the ball off quickly. As Elway and Fox have both noted, he's a very good football player and quite raw as a QB.

You need a good team to see those things. Look at Brady in his game today when he was getting pressured and hit. No running game... and teams know he is a rookie with no preparation. That is why those games were so meaningless.. but even with everything against him he still outplayed Orton. Amazing.

epicSocialism4tw
01-16-2011, 10:47 PM
And Vick got worked in the playoffs, even though he has a much better throwing motion than Tebow. Even McDaniels started with a 6-0 record, it will be fun to watch but there will be no late season success for Tebow.

He will get hit, and he might truck a guy or two. But at some point he is going to be hurt.

The guy has started and performed well in 3 NFL games.

But yet here you are clinging to the last shred of hope that you have in his failure...his "throwing motion" and the "he's going to get hurt card."

Your string is just about played out. By mid-season next year, you'll either be gone from here or you will have shut up about Tebow. So this is your last summer to delude yourself into more anti-Tebow hate. You better make it last.

epicSocialism4tw
01-16-2011, 10:48 PM
If it weren't for Lloyd and his miraculous catches Tebow wouldn't have such good numbers just sayin

Tebow's receivers have also dropped TD's as well. That argument cuts both ways.

Dedhed
01-16-2011, 10:50 PM
If it weren't for Lloyd and his miraculous catches Tebow wouldn't have such good numbers just sayin

Lloyd had two great catches for Tebow. He had about 30 for Orton. Every QB in the league gets help from their WRs on bad throws. It's a total moot point.

epicSocialism4tw
01-16-2011, 10:52 PM
I hope Tebow is able to mold himself into an NFL QB, with the ability to go through progressions and get the ball off quickly. As Elway and Fox have both noted, he's a very good football player and quite raw as a QB.

It has also been reported that Tebow's football IQ is at the level of his coaches.

Tebow will have no problem making reads.

Its reps that he needs. Reps help with timing. It familiarizes you with the pocket that the O-line gives you, with the way that your receivers run routes against competition, and the way that defenses cover you. I have 100% confidence that given more reps, that Tebow's pocket play will as proficient as some of the best pocket passers in the game.

peacepipe
01-16-2011, 10:54 PM
25 ppg, 17 point comeback, tds in every game, and he did it all against two of the top defenses in only his first three starts. Whose twisting? You are really trying too hard, and your not hiding your agenda well at all. Go take a deep breath and try again.Against the chargers he didn't do **** until it was garbage time & oakland didn't have a "top" defense.

schaaf
01-16-2011, 10:54 PM
We will see Tebow soon enough, I look forward to the new and unique excuses for his lack of production. I also look forward to the many ways the Tebow crowd twist themselves into knots looking for positive things to say about their boy.

I cannot believe you said this. Did you really say his lack of production? He had one of the best first 3 starts EVER for a rookie. With that said it was only 3 games but you are claiming a lack of production??? that is absurd! and we're not twisting anything we saw his teammates performance improve on the field, we saw a football player who literally laid it all on the field. we saw a leader lead his team back from down by 17. We literally could not have asked for a better performance for a ROOKIE quarterback.

Dedhed
01-16-2011, 10:55 PM
We will see Tebow soon enough, I look forward to the new and unique excuses for his lack of production. I also look forward to the many ways the Tebow crowd twist themselves into knots looking for positive things to say about their boy.
The funny part is that you're the one who is relying on hope that Tebow is going to fail. You're the one who currently has to make excuses for why Tebow's performances were productive. You're the one tying yourself in knots to find negatives, not the other way around.

epicSocialism4tw
01-16-2011, 10:57 PM
We literally could not have asked for a better performance for a ROOKIE quarterback.

I think thats what sold everybody on Tebow. We all had low expectations, and he came in and exceeded those expectations admirably.

Not only did he look like a player that could develop into a great player, he looked like he belonged now. Not only did he look like he belonged, but at times he dominated the game.

schaaf
01-16-2011, 10:57 PM
Against the chargers he didn't do **** until it was garbage time & oakland didn't have a "top" defense.

that garbage time had us within one play of winning.

peacepipe
01-16-2011, 11:01 PM
that garbage time had us within one play of winning.thats the case lots of time when it is garbage time. the seattle/bears game is a good example of that.

schaaf
01-16-2011, 11:01 PM
I think thats what sold everybody on Tebow. We all had low expectations, and he came in and exceeded those expectations admirably.

Not only did he look like a player that could develop into a great player, he looked like he belonged now. Not only did he look like he belonged, but at times he dominated the game.

I agree, I myself thought he was going to have very bad games, maybe 3 or 4 interceptions and probably get blown out but we would see a few plays that would be a glimpse of what he may be able to do in the future. He exceeded everyones expectations. That is enough said.

epicSocialism4tw
01-16-2011, 11:01 PM
that garbage time had us within one play of winning.

That's the difference between Tebow's garbage time play and Ortons. Tebow got us within striking distance twice and won one of them.

schaaf
01-16-2011, 11:02 PM
thats the case lots of time when it is garbage time. the seattle/bears game is a good example of that.

yeah good point except for the seahawks lost by eleven

schaaf
01-16-2011, 11:03 PM
so i don't know how that is saying Matt Hasselbeck brought them to within one play to win the game on the last second.

epicSocialism4tw
01-16-2011, 11:05 PM
so i don't know how that is saying Matt Hasselbeck brought them to within one play to win the game on the last second.

Its not an equivalency. Its more of an equivalency of what Orton was able to do late in the game this season.

schaaf
01-16-2011, 11:05 PM
And look I'm not proclaiming Tebow is the next great quarterback. All I am saying is that Tebow exceeded everyone's expectations and that by being a fan of the broncos you should be very impressed with how he performed.

Can you deny that Tebow exceeded 99% of peoples expectations?

OABB
01-16-2011, 11:06 PM
I can't believe anyone would knock a rookie in only three games for garbage time throws. Insane. Especially since the ball was a foot and half away from being one of the biggest comebacks in history. A week after an actuall huge comeback. People are too dumb sometimes. Like crazy sad dumb.

Dedhed
01-16-2011, 11:13 PM
I can't believe anyone would knock a rookie in only three games for garbage time throws. Insane. Especially since the ball was a foot and half away from being one of the biggest comebacks in history. A week after an actuall huge comeback. People are too dumb sometimes. Like crazy sad dumb.

The bottom line is that we were a significantly better football team with Tebow at QB. That's high praise for a rookie.

Of course he has a ton of things to improve on, which makes his potential truly frightening for the opposition, and exciting for the Broncos.

People who use the fact that he has things to work on to support a take that he'll never be an NFL quarterback are off the charts dumb. Or like scttgrd just have blind eyes to what he actually brings to the football field because they can't get past the way he leads his life off the field.

epicSocialism4tw
01-16-2011, 11:15 PM
I can't believe anyone would knock a rookie in only three games for garbage time throws. Insane. Especially since the ball was a foot and half away from being one of the biggest comebacks in history. A week after an actuall huge comeback. People are too dumb sometimes. Like crazy sad dumb.

I dont think that they're dumb.

I think that they have agendas that they just cant let go of.

I'm about 85% certain that by this time next year, the haters will have no choice but to reluctantly cheer for Tebow and the Broncos or they'll be forced to abandon the Broncos altogether.

OABB
01-16-2011, 11:17 PM
The bottom line is that we were a significantly better football team with Tebow at QB. That's high praise for a rookie.

Of course he has a ton of things to improve on, which makes his potential truly frightening for the opposition, and exciting for the Broncos.

People who use the fact that he has things to work on to support a take that he'll never be an NFL quarterback are off the charts dumb. Or like scttgrd just have blind eyes to what he actually brings to the football field because they can't get past the way he leads his life off the field.


So true. I for one am glad to be on tebows nuts from the start. I feel sorry for the grinch's and Debbie downers who can't control their bias and will miss out on a lot of excitement. I hate religion and am pro choice but I don't give two ****s about it when it comes to who I support.

Tim is the most exciting player we've had in a long time. I for one am not too stupid to miss it due to pannis.

OABB
01-16-2011, 11:21 PM
I dont think that they're dumb.

I think that they have agendas that they just cant let go of.

I'm about 85% certain that by this time next year, the haters will have no choice but to reluctantly cheer for Tebow and the Broncos or they'll be forced to abandon the Broncos altogether.

You see, to me that is dumb. Being an adult I don't let bias rule me. It's there, but it doesn't outwiegh facts for me.

epicSocialism4tw
01-16-2011, 11:22 PM
So true. I for one am glad to be on tebows nuts from the start. I feel sorry for the grinch's and Debbie downers who can't control their bias and will miss out on a lot of excitement. I hated tebow... I hate religion... Bit than I realized I was being a twat and now I want a son just so I can name him timtebow pentland.

Here's the bottom line...

Tebow is a blast to watch. He's an exciting player who changes games. And you know that come Hell or high water, Tebow's going to be out there playing his butt off to win. You know that he's going to do that every time he plays. And you know that he's actually thinking of rewarding his fans with wins...with rewarding their faith in him by producing results for them. He does that with his teammates, his coaches, and his fans.

He's a special young man.

peacepipe
01-16-2011, 11:22 PM
the chargers were up 33-14 with 7:55 left in the game. The chargers went into **** it mode from that point on. Tebow had only 6 completions in the 1st half thats including the 2 INTs he threw. he had a HOF inducting 45% completion rate for the game.

schaaf
01-16-2011, 11:26 PM
the chargers were up 33-14 with 7:55 left in the game. The chargers went into **** it mode from that point on. Tebow had only 6 completions in the 1st half thats including the 2 INTs he threw. he had a HOF inducting 45% completion rate for the game.

I forgot can you remind me how many years has Tebow been playing? just curious

Dedhed
01-16-2011, 11:28 PM
the chargers were up 33-14 with 7:55 left in the game. The chargers went into **** it mode from that point on. Tebow had only 6 completions in the 1st half thats including the 2 INTs he threw. he had a HOF inducting 45% completion rate for the game.

What point are you trying to make?

MacGruder
01-16-2011, 11:29 PM
check it.....

Tim Tebow started Denver’s final three games and finished with the highest passer rating (82.1) among the eight NFL rookies that opened a game in 2010, while registering the most rushing yards (199) over a quarterback’s first three starts since the 1970 merger.

schaaf
01-16-2011, 11:30 PM
Denver Broncos vs. Kansas City Chiefs December 5, 2010

6-10

Our starting quarterback who had been in the league for 6 years went 9/28 with a whopping 32.1 % completion rate. He had a very high passer rating of 46.3. Orton could have dropped a deuce piece on the fifty yard line and actually won that game. But that is right he's only been in the league for 6 years.

OABB
01-16-2011, 11:30 PM
What point are you trying to make?

That he's an idiot. Well done pieceof****pipe. (I come up with the worst names)

epicSocialism4tw
01-16-2011, 11:31 PM
check it.....

I have mentioned this here a few times, so I hope I'm not getting annoying with this, but one of the most impressive things about Tebow is that he came in and immediately started flirting with records...with Elway's rushing records, with comeback records, with rookie rushing records, etc.

Thats something that great players do when theyre young.

Dedhed
01-16-2011, 11:33 PM
So true. I for one am glad to be on tebows nuts from the start. I feel sorry for the grinch's and Debbie downers who can't control their bias and will miss out on a lot of excitement. I hate religion and am pro choice but I don't give two ****s about it when it comes to who I support.

Tim is the most exciting player we've had in a long time. I for one am not too stupid to miss it due to pannis.I wasn't necessarily on his nuts from the beginning. I, too can't stand religion, but that had nothing to do with my opinion of him as a Bronco. My question was whether what made him successful in college would translate to the NFL.

Despite his rookie mistakes, and the things he needs to work on, the answer to that question in 3 games was a resounding yes. That was all I needed to see to be fully on board with Tebow as the Bronco's quarterback going forward.

OABB
01-16-2011, 11:33 PM
the chargers were up 33-14 with 7:55 left in the game. The chargers went into **** it mode from that point on. Tebow had only 6 completions in the 1st half thats including the 2 INTs he threw. he had a HOF inducting 45% completion rate for the game.

I take it back. Tebow is a bust. Thank you for opening my eyes. Keep posting, you're doing great here!

schaaf
01-16-2011, 11:35 PM
Peacepipe what is your explanation of Orton's day then?

OABB
01-16-2011, 11:35 PM
I wasn't necessarily on his nuts from the beginning. I, too can't stand religion, but that had nothing to do with my opinion of him as a Bronco. My question was whether what made him successful in college would translate to the NFL.

Despite his rookie mistakes, and the things he needs to work on, the answer to that question in 3 games was a resounding yes. That was all I needed to see to be fully on board with Tebow as the Bronco's quarterback going forward.

By beginning I meant draft day. I hated tebow. I used to respond "his mother should have gone through with the abortion" when his name came up for drafting.

But than i started to pay attention to him and I am now in full on cult mode.

OABB
01-16-2011, 11:37 PM
Peacepipe what is your explanation of Orton's day then?

I wonder what he thought of manning when he was 1-15 as a rookie. What a tool. I can't wait for his next post. Should be a doozy.

schaaf
01-16-2011, 11:40 PM
I wonder what he thought of manning when he was 1-15 as a rookie. What a tool. I can't wait for his next post. Should be a doozy.

Manning was a complete bust, still a bust.

He ended his rookie year with 28 interceptions! can't believe this guy is still in the league! Not to even mention his 71.2 passer rating! what a failureHilarious!

OABB
01-16-2011, 11:43 PM
Drew brees failed in San Diego! He is a bust. Injury prone too.

schaaf
01-16-2011, 11:44 PM
obviously a bust.

peacepipe
01-16-2011, 11:45 PM
Look I'm not the one in"cult" mode. I didn't like this pick then & still don't really like this pick. he's fools gold. If he proves me wrong this upcomming season then fine but if he proves me right I don't want to hear "i didn't see this comming"

peacepipe
01-16-2011, 11:48 PM
Drew brees failed in San Diego! He is a bust. Injury prone too.

He didn't fail he dislocated his shoulder. noone thought he was injury prone.

peacepipe
01-16-2011, 11:49 PM
3-13 and still showed more than tebow.

schaaf
01-16-2011, 11:49 PM
He didn't fail he dislocated his shoulder. noone thought he was injury prone.

Are you going to ignore the questions I asked earlier?

enjolras
01-16-2011, 11:51 PM
Peacepipe what is your explanation of Orton's day then?

Orton was quite clearly injured at that point. Watch the game, you could see him physically grimace every time he dropped back.

I don't think he wanted off the field because he was afraid of letting Tebow on. Precisely because of what happened.

I'm not saying this in defense of the Tebow sucks argument, I'm quite on the record at this point for my optimism regarding Tebow. I don't think it's fair to turn really negative on Orton, however.

peacepipe
01-16-2011, 11:52 PM
I forgot can you remind me how many years has Tebow been playing? just curious

how many yrs did sam bradford play? completed 60% for the season well over 50% his 1st 3 games.

OABB
01-16-2011, 11:56 PM
how many yrs did sam bradford play? completed 60% for the season well over 50% his 1st 3 games.

Sam Bradford is a much better passer than tebow at this point numbnuts. So was manning. You aren't taking the neccesary time to think these posts through. No rush my man. Read them before you post maybe?

We all know he's not a great passer. But in three games coming from the gator offense no one is going to hold it against him yet. Especially considering thatthe team scored more points under him.

schaaf
01-16-2011, 11:57 PM
Did you watch Sam Bradford? I would be willing to bet over 50 percent of his completions we're check downs to Jackson out of the backfield. Look at the Yards Per Attempt. Also had a lower passer rating.

OABB
01-16-2011, 11:59 PM
Pieceapoop. Damnit! That's way funnier than pieceof****pipe. Just hit me.

peacepipe
01-17-2011, 12:01 AM
Did you watch Sam Bradford? I would be willing to bet over 50 percent of his completions we're check downs to Jackson out of the backfield. Look at the Yards Per Attempt. Also had a lower passer rating.as opposed to screens?

schaaf
01-17-2011, 12:02 AM
Look at the yards/attempt.

MacGruder
01-17-2011, 12:02 AM
Sam Bradford is a dink and dunk passer.. he was so coveted because he patterned his game on and looks like Tom Brady. And I don't think Brady's game translates to the post season, which is Ironic.

Yes, I know Brady has 3 championships. But I think it was his defenses that really won those. Without the dominant D he gets beat.

schaaf
01-17-2011, 12:05 AM
Sam Bradford is being said to be a franchise quarterback after his first year. I agree with this, I was very impressed with Bradford this year. But you're comparing Tebow with Bradford where Tebow beat Bradford in almost every category? I will take that every day.

peacepipe
01-17-2011, 12:06 AM
I'll step up and say that the sam bradford analogy was a bad one. but my point is if you look(I watched every game) at each game & put the stats into the context of when they happened he didn't do good. actually the best he looked was against the texans but that isn't saying much.

schaaf
01-17-2011, 12:08 AM
I think every poster in here watched every game and I think EVERY poster in here besides you agrees that Tebow exceeded the expectations that all of America placed on him.

OABB
01-17-2011, 12:10 AM
I'll step up and say that the sam bradford analogy was a bad one. but my point is if you look(I watched every game) at each game & put the stats into the context of when they happened he didn't do good. actually the best he looked was against the texans but that isn't saying much.

It says a lot about a guy with poor mechanics actually. Give him time. We know he will do the work. And as a raw football player he is spectacular. What we see is a guy who already scores who isn't even good yet. How can you not be excited?

peacepipe
01-17-2011, 12:15 AM
I don't think from what I have seen that he's the future of this franchise. I'll admit i'm probably being abit harsh on him but at the same time posters claiming he's the greatest ever is also overhyping him.

OABB
01-17-2011, 12:23 AM
I don't think from what I have seen that he's the future of this franchise. I'll admit i'm probably being abit harsh on him but at the same time posters claiming he's the greatest ever is also overhyping him.

Don't judge others off of my insanity. My love fortebow creeps even me out. But he deserves a shot. And he has everything you need for the future. I believe he is the real deal, but time will tell. Just give into the power of the allmighty tebow already!

NUB
01-17-2011, 12:32 AM
There is some overhyping being done, but it is hard not to be impressed with what Tebow did as a rookie QB on what was a really terrible team. My outlook on it is that he did enough to win all three games if our defense existed and that shows a promising future to me.

schaaf
01-17-2011, 01:06 AM
There is some overhyping being done, but it is hard not to be impressed with what Tebow did as a rookie QB on what was a really terrible team. My outlook on it is that he did enough to win all three games if our defense existed and that shows a promising future to me.

This.

footstepsfrom#27
01-17-2011, 01:34 AM
Sam Bradford is a dink and dunk passer.. he was so coveted because he patterned his game on and looks like Tom Brady. And I don't think Brady's game translates to the post season, which is Ironic.

Yes, I know Brady has 3 championships. But I think it was his defenses that really won those. Without the dominant D he gets beat.
Wow.

schaaf
01-17-2011, 01:38 AM
Sam Bradford is a dink and dunk passer.. he was so coveted because he patterned his game on and looks like Tom Brady. And I don't think Brady's game translates to the post season, which is Ironic.

Yes, I know Brady has 3 championships. But I think it was his defenses that really won those. Without the dominant D he gets beat.

you should have stopped with this man.

MacGruder
01-17-2011, 01:41 AM
Wow.

Brady has shown that if you can get physical with him he falls apart faster than a Chinese motorcycle.

The exact opposite of the kind of QB you need in this era. If it was the 80s or something and he is on a loaded team then I think he would be in his element.

I think Belichick's genius is what allows him to make O-lines perform so well to protect him.. and even he can't make them perform well enough in the playoffs.

schaaf
01-17-2011, 01:49 AM
He has won 3 super bowls in this era.

MacGruder
01-17-2011, 01:55 AM
He has won 3 super bowls in this era.

Yes.. with a completely dominant defense and a genius of a coach. Why is it that people think there are gimmick offenses and overrated QBs in college but not the NFL? Brady runs a finesse offense that doesn't translate to the playoffs. His players get a ton of yards after the catch.

I think this is why McD felt he could win with Orton. And felt so confident he could make things work with Tebow.. and even why Matt Cassel was so good in the same system and didn't skip a beat without Brady. The QB is really more of a role player in that system because it's a gimmicky offense. This was why Orton was putting up record breaking numbers as well, Hollow numbers at that.

footstepsfrom#27
01-17-2011, 02:06 AM
Brady has shown that if you can get physical with him he falls apart faster than a Chinese motorcycle.

The exact opposite of the kind of QB you need in this era. If it was the 80s or something and he is on a loaded team then I think he would be in his element.

I think Belichick's genius is what allows him to make O-lines perform so well to protect him.. and even he can't make them perform well enough in the playoffs.
Brady is 14-5 including today in playoff games and just threw his first INT in 339 attempts.

It boggles the mind you think of all people, Tom Brady is the guy you think is over rated? That's amazing to me.

MacGruder
01-17-2011, 02:13 AM
Brady is 14-5 including today in playoff games and just threw his first INT in 339 attempts.

It boggles the mind you think of all people, Tom Brady is the guy you think is over rated? That's amazing to me.

That's how I see it. Have you seen how his line protects him? No other QB gets protected like him. Yes.. he is very good at functioning in that system, But what makes it work to me is Belichick's brilliance.

And I think the real star has always been the defense.. I think Brady has been more of a role player.

Hotwheelz
01-17-2011, 02:18 AM
That's how I see it. Have you seen how his line protects him? No other QB gets protected like him. Yes.. he is very good at functioning in that system, But what makes it work to me is Belichick's brilliance.

And I think the real star has always been the defense.. I think Brady has been more of a role player.

Seriously? Really?

MacGruder
01-17-2011, 03:40 AM
Absolutely. How else do you explain Cassel and Orton doing so well in the same system so quickly and putting up such big numbers? And Orton put up hollow numbers.

footstepsfrom#27
01-17-2011, 03:54 AM
Absolutely. How else do you explain Cassel and Orton doing so well in the same system so quickly and putting up such big numbers? And Orton put up hollow numbers.
You're assuming Cassel's experience would be an aberation for him, probably based on the widely reported and wildly exagerated lack of talent he supposedly has based on the fact that he "didn't start a game since high school" when he got to the Patriots. That singular peculiar fact has been entirely missrepresented however. Cassel was a hot talent coming out of HS, which is how he happened to go to USC to begin with. It's not his fault USC recruited not one, but two Heisman winners as well. In other words, Cassel might have done just fine anywhere else as well. Orton did well because he's a pretty good QB, not a great one but a good one. Nobody thinks he's Brady though.

Everything you're saying sounds like what people used to say about Joe Montana. In the end it doesn't matter if it's the system, the player, the coaching or all of those if you win.

MacGruder
01-17-2011, 04:33 AM
I think it does matter though.. because he doesn't play that well in the playoffs.. even with the best coach maybe ever. Yes, he won those three championship.. but Robert Horry has more championships than Michael Jordan too.

Why does a QB have to get so much credit for winning? Because Brady has 3 championships should that make him as good as Peyton? Let alone better? I think if Peyton played with Belichick they would be like Bill Russel and Red Auerbach. But the odds of having 2 guys that great on the same team are miniscule.

footstepsfrom#27
01-17-2011, 04:38 AM
I think it does matter though.. because he doesn't play that well in the playoffs.. even with the best coach maybe ever. Yes, he won those three championship.. but Robert Horry has more championships than Michael Jordan too.

Why does a QB have to get so much credit for winning? Because Brady has 3 championships should that make him as good as Peyton? Let alone better? I think if Peyton played with Belichick they would be like Bill Russel and Red Auerbach. But the odds of having 2 guys that great on the same team are miniscule.
Peyton Manning has spent most of his career in the perfect offense for him, with a line that protects him extremely well and loads of offensive weapons around him, not to mention an attacking defense that is built to go after QB's with a pass rush. Yet he trails Brady in the rings department. You wouldn't consider him a system QB as well?

MacGruder
01-17-2011, 05:43 AM
Peyton Manning has spent most of his career in the perfect offense for him, with a line that protects him extremely well and loads of offensive weapons around him, not to mention an attacking defense that is built to go after QB's with a pass rush. Yet he trails Brady in the rings department.

Caldwell versus Belchick? Even Dungy is nowhere near Belli IMO. They had a video segment on Peyton earlier in the season and they were showing how Peyton was getting hit over and over and still delivering perfect passes. Peyton is a physical beast. He's huge and beefy. Physically he is the complete opposite of Brady. Though they are both immobile. I have seen plenty of times - playoff series etc where Peyton has gotten pounded. And if he isn't it's because of that ability to pass and take that punishment that Brady can't that keeps guys from over pressuring IMO.

You wouldn't consider him a system QB as well?

I think Peyton is the system.. I think if you put Brady on the Colts team he would get beat down and you would see how mediocre the team is.

footstepsfrom#27
01-17-2011, 07:03 AM
Caldwell versus Belchick? Even Dungy is nowhere near Belli IMO. They had a video segment on Peyton earlier in the season and they were showing how Peyton was getting hit over and over and still delivering perfect passes. Peyton is a physical beast. He's huge and beefy. Physically he is the complete opposite of Brady. Though they are both immobile. I have seen plenty of times - playoff series etc where Peyton has gotten pounded. And if he isn't it's because of that ability to pass and take that punishment that Brady can't that keeps guys from over pressuring IMO.



I think Peyton is the system.. I think if you put Brady on the Colts team he would get beat down and you would see how mediocre the team is.
So because Manning is bigger and can take a pounding better (which he's never had to do really) that's why we discount all the talent around him but we don't with New England? Coaching is great but it's still players who win games, and few people would deny that Manning has had better offensive talent surrounding him than Brady has. They're different guys...system or not I'd take Tom Brady and design a system around him just as easily. Seriously...339 passes in a row without a pick? It's hard to imagine someone dong that in practice, without a pass rush, let alone in real games.

Neither one is Otto Graham though. ;D