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View Full Version : 4-3 or 3-4.... Doom or DJ


iforgotmypassword
01-13-2011, 08:41 PM
I think its time to part ways with one or the other, if we go back to a 4-3 we already have an awesome WLB, however..... we'd be paying a 3rd down specialist top tier money. If we remain in a 3-4 you gotta think at some point somebody recognizes that middle backers are way too important to stick DJ outta position right there. If we could get good value out of him... maybe package him with neckbeard? Then I think its time to part ways... or at least seek a better starter at the spot.

Agamemnon
01-13-2011, 08:43 PM
So get rid of one of our two best defenders? When we're trying to rebuild our defense? Okay...

GoBroncos84
01-13-2011, 08:45 PM
4-3 or 3-4 I hope we keep both players. Enough holes to fill without replacing them. Champ, Elvis, and D.J. are our 3 best defensive players. Building around them should be the focus

Homer Simpson
01-13-2011, 08:45 PM
Drop DJ. Sorry SoCal.

HILife
01-13-2011, 08:47 PM
I"m fine with either 4-3 or 3-4 so long is are defense is good. Kind of want to go back to 4-3. And no we keep both.

Lev Vyvanse
01-13-2011, 08:49 PM
With the NFLs changing rules and the evolution of the passing game it's more important than ever to put presurre on the QB. Whether we run the 3-4 or 4-3 getting rid of Doom would be an epic fail.

SoCalBronco
01-13-2011, 08:49 PM
We don't need to drop anyone. Just add on to the existing talent base. DJ is a fine WILB and Doom is a good 4-3 DE. Obviously one front would be more somewhat favorable to each individual, but they're fine in both. You don't ditch one of our three best defensive players just because of a front. Doom had like 8 or 9 sacks in the 4-3 and Josh said DJ was one of the best LB's in the league...even in a 3-4 defense.

Just supplement talent, its not that hard of a concept.

Dedhed
01-13-2011, 08:50 PM
4-3 or 3-4 I hope we keep both players. Enough holes to fill without replacing them. Champ, Elvis, and D.J. are our 3 best defensive players. Building around them should be the focus

Bannan>DJ

If we're going with a 3-4, I'd cut ties with DJ and get an extra 2nd-2rd rounder. If we're going back to 4-3, keep both and move DJ back to Will.

frerottenextelway
01-13-2011, 08:52 PM
4-3 DJ is a WLB, Doom is a DE.

It's like saying Tebow or Lloyd... Doesn't make sense.

If, for some unknown reason we had to choose, DUIJ is a better player in a 4-3 than Doom.

GoBroncos84
01-13-2011, 08:53 PM
Bannan>DJ

If we're going with a 3-4, I'd cut ties with DJ and get an extra 2nd-2rd rounder. If we're going back to 4-3, keep both and move DJ back to Will.

I think Bannen played quite well and will be an asset to our team moving forward. By nature of the positions they played D.J. made more "plays", 119 tackles with 5.5 sacks. That is not easy production to replace. I'd prefer to keep him and build around him. Those stats, BTW, were with a VERY subpar defensive line outside of Bannen. Imagine how well he can play once we fix the front.

spdirty
01-13-2011, 08:55 PM
Hopefully we go back to 4-3. Fairley, Elvis, Ayers, Bannan as a rotational guy. At least 3 of the 4 on the D-line are set. Then maybe trade Orton for that ****ing headcase out in DC, hope Fox pulls Haynesworths head out of his ass, if he does, all of a sudden we have one of the best D-Lines in football.

frerottenextelway
01-13-2011, 08:58 PM
How disappointing is it that our best Defensive players are still pre-McDaniels?

GoBroncos84
01-13-2011, 08:59 PM
Hopefully we go back to 4-3. Fairley, Elvis, Ayers, Bannan as a rotational guy. At least 3 of the 4 on the D-line are set. Then maybe trade Orton for that ****ing headcase out in DC, hope Fox pulls Haynesworths head out of his ass, if he does, all of a sudden we have one of the best D-Lines in football.

No thanks to Haynesworth. A starting 4-3 front of Doom, Fairley, Bannen, and Ayers would be just fine. Add depth behind them, but not a lazy, selfish, lockerroom cancer like Fat Albert. Pass. I'd rather get a draft pick for Orton

SoCalBronco
01-13-2011, 09:00 PM
BTW even if we went back to the 4-3, if we can draft someone like Fairley at #2 to create havoc at DT, they are going to have to double him and that will only help Doom out on the outside.

Doom will be fine at DE so long as we get some real DT talent so that the offense doesnt have to gameplan around a sole pass rushing threat. That's the key issue, not the front.

Agamemnon
01-13-2011, 09:00 PM
Hopefully we go back to 4-3. Fairley, Elvis, Ayers, Bannan as a rotational guy. At least 3 of the 4 on the D-line are set. Then maybe trade Orton for that ****ing headcase out in DC, hope Fox pulls Haynesworths head out of his ass, if he does, all of a sudden we have one of the best D-Lines in football.

No Haynesworth, especially with an impressionable kid like Fairley on the roster. That would be a monumentally bad idea. And anyway, Ayers, Bannan, Fairley, and Dumervil would be a pretty good 4-3 line as is. We could possibly add Watt at the top of the 2nd, and then we'd really be cooking.

Agamemnon
01-13-2011, 09:01 PM
BTW even if we went back to the 4-3, if we can draft someone like Fairley at #2 to create havoc at DT, they are going to have to double him and that will only help Doom out on the outside.

Doom will be fine at DE so long as we get some real DT talent so that the offense doesnt have to gameplan around a sole pass rushing threat. That's the key issue, not the front.

I admire your good sense sir.

GoBroncos84
01-13-2011, 09:02 PM
BTW even if we went back to the 4-3, if we can draft someone like Fairley at #2 to create havoc at DT, they are going to have to double him and that will only help Doom out on the outside.

Doom will be fine at DE so long as we get some real DT talent so that the offense doesnt have to gameplan around a sole pass rushing threat. That's the key issue, not the front.

I agree. Dumervil would be fine in a 4-3. The main reason teams could run at him when he played the position before is that he was the only threat on the D-line and got double teamed almost every play. If there is penetration up the middle and Doom has one on one matchups he can seal the edge and be effective in run support. If he gets double teamed and they drive block him he isn't stout enough to hold his ground. Putting talent around him opens everything up.

strafen
01-13-2011, 09:04 PM
Whatever we do, we need to keep Doom...

Agamemnon
01-13-2011, 09:06 PM
I agree. Dumervil would be fine in a 4-3. The main reason teams could run at him when he played the position before is that he was the only threat on the D-line and got double teamed almost every play. If there is penetration up the middle and Doom has one on one matchups he can seal the edge and be effective in run support. If he gets double teamed and they drive block him he isn't stout enough to hold his ground. Putting talent around him opens everything up.

Indeed. Fairley to his left changes things drastically for opposing offenses, in the running game and especially in the passing game.

Requiem
01-13-2011, 09:06 PM
The real question is, "Do we make the switch?"

Personally, I think we may be better suited for the 4-3 anyways. I'm guessing since that is what Fox has ran, it is what we would build in. He has a few solid defenders (FA) that could come our way in the process and would address need areas on the team. Not only that, we have draft picks to work with as well.

Maybe I'm wrong.

Agamemnon
01-13-2011, 09:07 PM
Whatever we do, we need to keep Doom...

Don't worry. The team that had the fewest sacks in the league isn't going to be trading their only established pass rusher. Those who think that's a good idea, regardless of scheme, are clinically insane.

frerottenextelway
01-13-2011, 09:10 PM
Whatever we do, we need to keep Doom...

This coach won't have the insecurity problems that he feels the need to trade most of our talent. Our problem is going to be to rebuild the talent.

spdirty
01-13-2011, 09:13 PM
No thanks to Haynesworth. A starting 4-3 front of Doom, Fairley, Bannen, and Ayers would be just fine. Add depth behind them, but not a lazy, selfish, lockerroom cancer like Fat Albert. Pass. I'd rather get a draft pick for Orton

If healthy and properly motivated Haynesworth is one of the most dominating defensive players in football. Right now he would come cheap. I'm not going to actively campaign that we try to get him, but at the right price its worth the risk. If we don't get him I'm OK with that, in fact Id doubt we would make a run at him. But I'd also be pretty ****in happy seeing that dline with Haynesworth on it. Especially if we gave up next to nothing for him.

bpc
01-13-2011, 09:13 PM
I think a majority of our FO is pro 4-3 guys anyways between Fox, Elway and Xanders. I wouldn't be surprised if we just kick the 3-4 to the curb.

I do think this bring about a huge problem with the contract we just signed Doom to. I love him but I don't think he'll be worth the money he's getting paid to truly be a situational pass rusher in the 4-3. I'd probably send out some feelings looking for a draft pick. Washington, NE, Baltimore, Green Bay, take your pick.

I love Doom but he isn't the guy we need anchoring the end of the LOS in a 4-3. It's going to burn his body out too fast and he'll never have the impact that we paid for.

Killericon
01-13-2011, 09:17 PM
How disappointing is it that our best Defensive players are still pre-McDaniels?

He was here a season and 3/4s, and he spent as many picks on offense as he did on defense. Not that disappointing.

Dedhed
01-13-2011, 09:19 PM
Fairley......... but not a lazy, selfish, lockerroom cancer

IMO, they're destined to meet up.

I would much rather stay with the 3-4, trade back to get Paea; who the more I study looks more like a combo between Haloti Ngata and Casey Hampton. High character guy, which rarely happens with elite DTs, and he is as dominant as that butt-wipe Fairley, but doesn't play in the national spotlight.

Here's the last two years against Oregon. Watch him just constantly blow up the C-G and the number of double teams. Every bit as dominant as Fairley against the same OL.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGyNrdyFDvI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laPi34hC6UU&feature=related

Lev Vyvanse
01-13-2011, 09:19 PM
The real question is, "Do we make the switch?"

Personally, I think we may be better suited for the 4-3 anyways. I'm guessing since that is what Fox has ran, it is what we would build in. He has a few solid defenders (FA) that could come our way in the process and would address need areas on the team. Not only that, we have draft picks to work with as well.

Maybe I'm wrong.

I think it comes down to can Ayers put his hand down. I'm not convinced after his showing in the nickel during 2009.

montrose
01-13-2011, 09:37 PM
Doom's 17 sacks in 2009 weren't a result of him standing up, 15 of them came from a 4-3 DE, 3-point stance. He was fresher because he wasn't getting beat on as a DE, and wasn't playing on an injured hand (as in 2008).

Doom as a 4-3 DE >>> Doom as a 3-4 OLB
DJ as a 4-3 WLB >>> DJ as a 3-4 ILB.

Bigdawg26
01-13-2011, 09:38 PM
doom's 17 sacks in 2009 weren't a result of him standing up, 15 of them came from a 4-3 de, 3-point stance. He was fresher because he wasn't getting beat on as a de, and wasn't playing on an injured hand (as in 2008).

Doom as a 4-3 de >>> doom as a 3-4 olb
dj as a 4-3 wlb >>> dj as a 3-4 ilb.
this

Agamemnon
01-13-2011, 09:39 PM
IMO, they're destined to meet up.

I would much rather stay with the 3-4, trade back to get Paea; who the more I study looks more like a combo between Haloti Ngata and Casey Hampton. High character guy, which rarely happens with elite DTs, and he is as dominant as that butt-wipe Fairley, but doesn't play in the national spotlight.

Here's the last two years against Oregon. Watch him just constantly blow up the C-G and the number of double teams. Every bit as dominant as Fairley against the same OL.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGyNrdyFDvI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laPi34hC6UU&feature=related

Stick with the 3-4 and then draft a 4-3 guy? I don't get that. Seriously how can you watch those videos and think he's a NT? Also how can you think he's as dominant in those videos as Fairley? The 2010 video in particular was underwhelming.

I like Paea, but he is nowhere near Fairley as a prospect.

Agamemnon
01-13-2011, 09:42 PM
Doom's 17 sacks in 2009 weren't a result of him standing up, 15 of them came from a 4-3 DE, 3-point stance. He was fresher because he wasn't getting beat on as a DE, and wasn't playing on an injured hand (as in 2008).

Doom as a 4-3 DE >>> Doom as a 3-4 OLB
DJ as a 4-3 WLB >>> DJ as a 3-4 ILB.

Indeed. People seem to forget his 12.5 sack season as a 4-3 DE, and the fact that he was still rushing from a three point stance most of the time in 2009.

Kaylore
01-13-2011, 09:43 PM
I disagree. I think Doom could do the Freeney thing, but I think he'll have a better career if he does the Harrison thing.

In any case, most of the best defenses in the league flex between a 3-4 and 4-3 week to week depending on opponents and Fox has even said this is just about semantics. They'll use him right.

OBF1
01-13-2011, 09:43 PM
Was on the light rail today and heard we are going to the Bears old 46 defense.

Dedhed
01-13-2011, 10:14 PM
Stick with the 3-4 and then draft a 4-3 guy? I don't get that. Seriously how can you watch those videos and think he's a NT?

You were probably naive enough to say similar things about Hampton coming out of college.

nickademus
01-13-2011, 10:31 PM
IMHO we are headed for more of a 4-3 but the problem isnt really doom or dj its the fact that we dont have a mlb or a sam for that matter. so if we draft fairley we had best find a mlb in the second and prey we can sign harris away from ny. we also need some help at safety dawk is most likely done bruton is a special teams player and mcbath is hurt 95% of the time, hill is a bandaid player who could devolve quickly. Our d has some serious holes fix the front 7 but dont forget about the secondary.

Dedhed
01-13-2011, 10:37 PM
Doom as a 4-3 DE >>> Doom as a 3-4 OLB
Utterly false.

DJ as a 4-3 WLB >>> DJ as a 3-4 ILB.Is water wet?

Agamemnon
01-13-2011, 10:38 PM
You were probably naive enough to say similar things about Hampton coming out of college.

I didn't follow the draft that closely back then, so I didn't have an opinion. But Casey Hampton is actually built like a NT. Paea absolutely isn't. I'm not saying he can't play the position theoretically. It just really seems like a huge leap of faith to project him there.

Dedhed
01-13-2011, 10:39 PM
IMHO we are headed for more of a 4-3 but the problem isnt really doom or dj its the fact that we dont have a mlb or a sam for that matter. so if we draft fairley we had best find a mlb in the second and prey we can sign harris away from ny. we also need some help at safety dawk is most likely done bruton is a special teams player and mcbath is hurt 95% of the time, hill is a bandaid player who could devolve quickly. Our d has some serious holes fix the front 7 but dont forget about the secondary.

Our prospective LB line up in a 4-3 looks almost as bad as it did with Jamie Winborn and Nate Webster.

Hamrob
01-13-2011, 10:40 PM
You keep both of these guys under John Fox! DJW reminds me of trevor pryce...never really realized his potential...but, was a damn good player for us. We cut lose of Pryce and for 5yrs or so...he's continued to be a...damned good player.

Hell no...keep DJ and Doom!!!

Agamemnon
01-13-2011, 10:41 PM
IMHO we are headed for more of a 4-3 but the problem isnt really doom or dj its the fact that we dont have a mlb or a sam for that matter. so if we draft fairley we had best find a mlb in the second and prey we can sign harris away from ny. we also need some help at safety dawk is most likely done bruton is a special teams player and mcbath is hurt 95% of the time, hill is a bandaid player who could devolve quickly. Our d has some serious holes fix the front 7 but dont forget about the secondary.

Haggan would make a good Sam in my opinion (and if not, Sams are easy to find). We'd definitely need to find a true MLB though, I agree there. I really like the idea of Casey Matthews in the 3rd round. And everything else you said is pretty much spot on (I think Hill is better than people give him credit for though).

Dedhed
01-13-2011, 10:42 PM
I didn't follow the draft that closely back then, so I didn't have an opinion. But Casey Hampton is actually built like a NT. Paea absolutely isn't. I'm not saying he can't play the position theoretically. It just really seems like a huge leap of faith to project him there.
Casey Hampton was 6'1" and 314 pounds when he left Texas. Paea is 6'1" and 312 pounds. Paea is hands down stronger than Hampton, and runs far better in space.

Agamemnon
01-13-2011, 10:46 PM
Casey Hampton was 6'1" and 314 pounds when he left Texas. Paea is 6'1" and 312 pounds. Paea is hands down stronger than Hampton, and runs far better in space.

Do you really think Paea is 312 when you look at him?

Dedhed
01-13-2011, 10:49 PM
Do you really think Paea is 312 when you look at him?

Yup.

nickademus
01-13-2011, 10:51 PM
Our prospective LB line up in a 4-3 looks almost as bad as it did with Jamie Winborn and Nate Webster.

dude go say your prayers after uttering websters name If I have to relive that crap I will surely be in need of a priest so he might excerise the demons.

Agamemnon
01-13-2011, 10:52 PM
Yup.

Should be interesting when official weigh-ins take place. Dude looks like he comes in at 280 to 290 to me. The one thing you can be sure of is that it's nearly all muscle whatever his weight is.

Dedhed
01-13-2011, 10:55 PM
dude go say your prayers after uttering websters name If I have to relive that crap I will surely be in need of a priest so he might excerise the demons.

I said 50 "Our Tebow's" after I typed it.

Dedhed
01-13-2011, 10:56 PM
The one thing you can be sure of is that it's nearly all muscle whatever his weight is.
Which is why I believe he easily weighs over 300.

nickademus
01-13-2011, 10:58 PM
Haggan would make a good Sam in my opinion (and if not, Sams are easy to find). We'd definitely need to find a true MLB though, I agree there. I really like the idea of Casey Matthews in the 3rd round. And everything else you said is pretty much spot on (I think Hill is better than people give him credit for though).

hagen would be fine until we go to the nickel then we are phucked. I liek casey matthews and I like tank carder (maybe just the name) if we get a 5th or so but if we use a second we need Gregg Jones this is a great draft for front seven needs I only hope we dont screw it up.

nickademus
01-13-2011, 10:59 PM
I said 50 "Our Tebow's" after I typed it.

and I bet your fingers were still dirty.

Dedhed
01-13-2011, 11:03 PM
and I bet your fingers were still dirty.

I chopped them off just to be safe.

nickademus
01-13-2011, 11:03 PM
good call.

Agamemnon
01-13-2011, 11:04 PM
hagen would be fine until we go to the nickel then we are pink puppy bellied. I liek casey matthews and I like tank carder (maybe just the name) if we get a 5th or so but if we use a second we need Gregg Jones this is a great draft for front seven needs I only hope we dont screw it up.

When you go nickel you pull a linebacker, and assuming we drafted or signed a free agent Mike, obviously the linebacker you pull is Haggan. Personally I think Casey Matthews is well worth a third rounder. That guy is going to be an excellent Mike in the NFL. His instincts are just too damn good.

nickademus
01-13-2011, 11:05 PM
What do you guys think about all of the raiders free agents on the radio Stink said there were going to be 29 guys or something crazy like that.

peacepipe
01-13-2011, 11:05 PM
if we go back to a 4-3 doom is going to hit the trading block. There is no way that with the money he's getting paid that they are going to move him into a position that he is going to be less productive. doom is not suited to play DE in a 4-3.

nickademus
01-13-2011, 11:14 PM
When you go nickel you pull a linebacker, and assuming we drafted or signed a free agent Mike, obviously the linebacker you pull is Haggan. Personally I think Casey Matthews is well worth a third rounder. That guy is going to be an excellent Mike in the NFL. His instincts are just too damn good.

well right now we dont have that mike and haggan would be on the field but yes mathews would be nice.

iforgotmypassword
01-14-2011, 11:14 AM
Wy arguement is that we can't afford Elvis's contract to not have im be a premiere player in our defense... which he wouldn't be in a 4-3. He'd be a very valuble trade chip to a 3-4 team.... him and orton to miami.... imagine what we could get in return for that.

bendog
01-14-2011, 11:24 AM
I'm not so sure Doom's a better 4-3 DE than 3-4 OLB. He's almost Simon Fletcherish (which is no dis), though he moves better laterally imo. At any rate, I agree with Mediator that he's really a liability in run defense in a 4-3. He can occupy the OT but he isn't getting off blocks to make tackles. And that's why I don't see the logic of getting rid of DJ, because any run defense on the left side will have to come from the Will stepping up, and the WS safety coming up hard, and Dawkins is just worn out.

Fox is a 4-3 guy, so I think this is a foregone conclusion. And, there don't appear to be many ILB prospects in the draft, so DJ may have to stay at Mike.

ColoradoBuff
01-14-2011, 11:34 AM
I'm not so sure Doom's a better 4-3 DE than 3-4 OLB. He's almost Simon Fletcherish (which is no dis), though he moves better laterally imo. At any rate, I agree with Mediator that he's really a liability in run defense in a 4-3. He can occupy the OT but he isn't getting off blocks to make tackles. And that's why I don't see the logic of getting rid of DJ, because any run defense on the left side will have to come from the Will stepping up, and the WS safety coming up hard, and Dawkins is just worn out.

Fox is a 4-3 guy, so I think this is a foregone conclusion. And, there don't appear to be many ILB prospects in the draft, so DJ may have to stay at Mike.


Elway has stated that Fox has run both the 3-4 and 4-3.....he will evaluate the personel and then decide what scheme to run.

http://www.denverpost.com/paige/ci_17092259