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epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2011, 02:04 PM
The last time that Fox had the #2 pick? Julius Peppers. Is DeQuan Bowers in our future?

1st round picks:
RB - 3
LB - 3
OT - 2
DE - 1
CB - 1
LB - 1

2nd round picks:
RB - 2
C - 2
WR - 2
CB - 1
DE - 1
S - 1
QB - 1
DT - 1

3rd round picks:
LB - 3
WR - 3
OT - 2
DT - 2
TE - 1
OG - 1
DE - 1
CB - 1

Notable scores: Peppers (1), Jordan Gross (1), Steve Smith (3), Kris Jenkins (2), Ricky Manning (3), Thomas Davis (1), Charles Johnson (3), Dan Morgan (1), Chris Gamble (1), Ryan Kalil (2), Jon Beason (1), DeAngelo Williams/Jonathan Stewart (both 1's)
Noteable whiffs: Keary Colbert (2), Dywane Jarrett (2) (note...do NOT draft WR's from USC), Eric Shelton (2), Bruce Nelson (2)

Really, there were surprisingly few whiffs in the first two rounds, most of which were second-round picks. The Panthers' problems do not appear to be due to lack of adding talent through the draft.

*I inlcuded the "2001 Draft" from wikipedia, but I couldnt figure out whether it was Siefert or Fox who made those picks. That was an important draft for Carolina...it netted Dan Morgan, Kris Jenkins, and Steve Smith all in the first three rounds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_Panthers_draft_history

also...Bill Williamson or Mike Klis or whomever...if you rip this information off, at least give credit to orangemane.com.

Crushaholic
01-13-2011, 02:21 PM
He found some fine talent on that list. We need someone like a Julius Peppers, who can disrupt the backfield and make plays...:thumbs:

BroncoInferno
01-13-2011, 02:21 PM
Fox didn't have personnel say in Carolina. I'm sure he gave his input, but he never made the final call.

RunSilentRunDeep
01-13-2011, 02:24 PM
That draft record was underwhelming.

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2011, 02:26 PM
He found some fine talent on that list. We need someone like a Julius Peppers, who can disrupt the backfield and make plays...:thumbs:

His record on first round picks is awesome.

2001 Morgan
2002 Peppers
2003 Gross
2004 Gamble
2005 Thomas Davis
2006 DeAngelo Williams
2007 Jon Beason
2008a Jonathan Stewart
2008b Jeff Otah
2009 none
2010 none

Every one of those players except for one has been at least a solid contributor for the Panthers, many of them historically important players in the franchise. The only one who hasnt panned out is Otah, who has struggled with injuries over the past two years.

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2011, 02:27 PM
Fox didn't have personnel say in Carolina. I'm sure he gave his input, but he never made the final call.

Do you have a link that would prove that he made no decisions in terms of the draft in Carolina?

bfoflcommish
01-13-2011, 02:28 PM
And with all that draft "scores" they still managed to finish worse then us.

Kaylore
01-13-2011, 02:31 PM
And with all that draft "scores" they still managed to finish worse then us.

Most of those players aren't on the team anymore and the few that were are inured this year. Dig a little deeper.

Tombstone RJ
01-13-2011, 02:31 PM
The last time that Fox had the #2 pick? Julius Peppers. Is DeQuan Bowers in our future?

1st round picks:
RB - 3
LB - 3
OT - 2
DE - 1
CB - 1
LB - 1

2nd round picks:
RB - 2
C - 2
WR - 2
CB - 1
DE - 1
S - 1
QB - 1
DT - 1

3rd round picks:
LB - 3
WR - 3
OT - 2
DT - 2
TE - 1
OG - 1
DE - 1
CB - 1

Notable scores: Peppers (1), Jordan Gross (1), Steve Smith (3), Kris Jenkins (2), Ricky Manning (3), Thomas Davis (1), Charles Johnson (3), Dan Morgan (1), Chris Gamble (1), Ryan Kalil (2), Jon Beason (1), DeAngelo Williams/Jonathan Stewart (both 1's)
Noteable whiffs: Keary Colbert (2), Dywane Jarrett (2) (note...do NOT draft WR's from USC), Eric Shelton (2), Bruce Nelson (2)

Really, there were surprisingly few whiffs in the first two rounds, most of which were second-round picks. The Panthers' problems do not appear to be due to lack of adding talent through the draft.

*I inlcuded the "2001 Draft" from wikipedia, but I couldnt figure out whether it was Siefert or Fox who made those picks. That was an important draft for Carolina...it netted Dan Morgan, Kris Jenkins, and Steve Smith all in the first three rounds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_Panthers_draft_history

also...Bill Williamson or Mike Klis or whomever...if you rip this information off, at least give credit to orangemane.com.

Nice find! I know that I really liked some of Carolina's picks, I was pretty high on Morgan and Beason. Morgan turned into a disppointment becuase of injuries. Really like the RBs Carolina drafted too.

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2011, 02:31 PM
And with all that draft "scores" they still managed to finish worse then us.

And thats a good point to raise that begs the question why.

Inkana7
01-13-2011, 02:32 PM
Most of those players aren't on the team anymore and the few that were are inured this year. Dig a little deeper.

Yup.

Pony Boy
01-13-2011, 02:33 PM
Fox didn't have personnel say in Carolina. I'm sure he gave his input, but he never made the final call.

Link Please?

zdoor
01-13-2011, 02:33 PM
I'm optimistic.

Agamemnon
01-13-2011, 02:35 PM
Do you have a link that would prove that he made no decisions in terms of the draft in Carolina?

It's pretty commonly known. They have the traditional Owner-GM-Coach structure. The GM gets the players and the coach coaches them. I'm sure he had some input, but in the end he had no real say in personnel moves. I'm sure the three-way consensus approach that we are going with is appealing to him as he will now have more of a voice.

bfoflcommish
01-13-2011, 02:36 PM
Most of those players aren't on the team anymore and the few that were are inured this year. Dig a little deeper.

you can only blame ownership sooo much. look at rockies even with piss poor owners they still hit jackpot every few years.

bendog
01-13-2011, 02:36 PM
too many rb's in the first for me, but he didn't have personnel control.

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2011, 02:37 PM
Also...

When analyzing that information in the original post, remember that a team drafts both for best player available and to fill holes, so Fox's tendancies may not be the same here in Denver.

For example, Denver has alot of deficiencies on defense that might skew the number of players he drafts for defense in that direction rather than what is typical of the pattern he demonstrated in Carolina.

Kaylore
01-13-2011, 02:38 PM
you can only blame ownership sooo much. look at rockies even with piss poor owners they still hit jackpot every few years.

The Rockies front office is awesome. Holiday for Houston Street and Carlos Gonzales? They are the model of developing home grown prospects. That's not them getting lucky, they are good at it. Wrong again.

Agamemnon
01-13-2011, 02:38 PM
And thats a good point to raise that begs the question why.

They are incredibly cheap and rarely resign people. They do not address their needs through FA generally speaking. They have long neglected the QB position, relying on mediocrity to carry them through. Those are some reasons.

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2011, 02:39 PM
It's pretty commonly known. They have the traditional Owner-GM-Coach structure. The GM gets the players and the coach coaches them. I'm sure he had some input, but in the end he had no real say in personnel moves. I'm sure the three-way consensus approach that we are going with is appealing to him as he will now have more of a voice.

I know that, but I dont know specifically how Carolina's system worked. They may have a list of players to choose from from information that Fox gives them or the other way around. It wouldnt make sense to suggest that Fox was completely removed from the scouting process or the decision-making process.

bfoflcommish
01-13-2011, 02:40 PM
The Rockies front office is awesome. Holiday for Houston Street and Carlos Gonzales? They are the model of developing home grown prospects. That's not them getting lucky, they are good at it. Wrong again.

Im sorry but rockies ownership is far from GOOD. again they have hit jackpoit a few times

Zoobie
01-13-2011, 02:41 PM
They are incredibly cheap and rarely resign people. They do not address their needs through FA generally speaking. They have long neglected the QB position, relying on mediocrity to carry them through. Those are some reasons.

You should not address your needs in FA, good teams do it through the draft.

Agamemnon
01-13-2011, 02:44 PM
I know that, but I dont know specifically how Carolina's system worked. They may have a list of players to choose from from information that Fox gives them or the other way around. It wouldnt make sense to suggest that Fox was completely removed from the scouting process or the decision-making process.

It may not make sense, but from what I understand it's the truth. It started becoming a real issue over his last few seasons from what I understand. He really didn't like the rosters he was being given to work with and started becoming disgruntled. It's all speculation and rumors mind you, but that's what I've heard.

Agamemnon
01-13-2011, 02:45 PM
You should not address your needs in FA, good teams do it through the draft.

No, good teams do both. You shouldn't overspend in FA.

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2011, 02:46 PM
It may not make sense, but from what I understand it's the truth. It started becoming a real issue over his last few seasons from what I understand. He really didn't like the rosters he was being given to work with and started becoming disgruntled. It's all speculation and rumors mind you, but that's what I've heard.

It doesnt make any sense that he would be left out of the scouting process since he is ultimately the guy who puts the players on the field.

Hercules Rockefeller
01-13-2011, 02:46 PM
The Rockies front office is awesome. Holiday for Houston Street and Carlos Gonzales? They are the model of developing home grown prospects. That's not them getting lucky, they are good at it. Wrong again.

The Monforts suck. O'Dowd is who made the team what they are, and lucking into 2 franchise players who like where they are and signed for less than market value.

bfoflcommish
01-13-2011, 02:48 PM
The Monforts suck. O'Dowd is who made the team what they are, and lucking into 2 franchise players who like where they are and signed for less than market value.

exactly!

lostknight
01-13-2011, 02:50 PM
you can only blame ownership sooo much. look at rockies even with piss poor owners they still hit jackpot every few years.

Sorry. Rockies came in with a plan to develop their minors system, and have quickly become one of the best in the majors. They made huge commitments this year, and have made out like bandits in trades, even the ones that are unpopular (Matt Holiday for Houston Street, Greg Smith and as a throw away, Cargo?), made it past Boras on Cargo, and are making out like bandits right now.

More power to them. Never thought I would see the day in Colorado where the Rockies FO was one of the best in the business, and we would see a 2-14 coach as a savior.

Tombstone RJ
01-13-2011, 02:51 PM
The Monforts suck. O'Dowd is who made the team what they are, and lucking into 2 franchise players who like where they are and signed for less than market value.

O'Dowd is questionable too. He was a total work in progress GM for the Rockies and he promised to build the team from the inside (drafts, minor league players, etc). but it's taken him a long time to deliver on his promises. He made some bonehead FA acquisitions early on but it looks like he's finally delivering on his promis to build the team up from the inside.

Majik
01-13-2011, 02:52 PM
He found some fine talent on that list. We need someone like a Julius Peppers, who can disrupt the backfield and make plays...:thumbs:

Found the guy you're looking for....

http://media.jsonline.com/images/uwgrid25p3(4).jpg


Honors and Awards
2010: Lott IMPACT Trophy winner ... AP and SI second-team All-American ... consensus first-team All-Big Ten ... Academic All-Big Ten ... Team MVP ... Academic All-Big Ten ... Midseason: finalist for the Bednarik and Hendricks Awards ... named second-team All-American by Phil Steele and SI.com and first-team All-Big Ten by Steele ... Preseason: Named first-team All-Big Ten by Phil Steele and second-team by Athlon Sports ... named to Lott IMPACT Trophy Award, Bronko Nagurski Trophy and Bednarik Award watch lists
2009: Honorable mention All-Big Ten (media) ... Academic All-Big Ten

He had 62 tackles, 21 tackles for loss, 7 sacks, and 9 passes defended, this past season.

Piece of trivia, last Wisconsin Badger drafted in the top 3, 4-time pro bowler Joe Thomas.

Agamemnon
01-13-2011, 02:54 PM
Found the guy you're looking for....

http://media.jsonline.com/images/uwgrid25p3(4).jpg




He had 62 tackles, 21 tackles for loss, 7 sacks, and 9 passes defended, this past season.

Piece of trivia, last Wisconsin Badger drafted in the top 3, 4-time pro bowler Joe Thomas.

I have a dream where we get him and Fairley. Oh would that be sweet...

lostknight
01-13-2011, 02:55 PM
The Monforts suck. O'Dowd is who made the team what they are, and lucking into 2 franchise players who like where they are and signed for less than market value.

Let me think about it. The Monfort's bought out McMorris in 2005. Since then, the Rockies have 2/3rds of their post-season playoffs. They developed their Latin American system, which is second to none in MLB. Made great decisions about who to draft, when to draft, trades, etc.

The Rockies have become a model mid-market team in the MLB.

lostknight
01-13-2011, 02:57 PM
O'Dowd is questionable too. He was a total work in progress GM for the Rockies and he promised to build the team from the inside (drafts, minor league players, etc). but it's taken him a long time to deliver on his promises. He made some bonehead FA acquisitions early on but it looks like he's finally delivering on his promis to build the team up from the inside.

The Negle and Hampton deals nearly bankrupted the Rockies.

ghwk
01-13-2011, 02:59 PM
Most of those players aren't on the team anymore and the few that were are inured this year. Dig a little deeper.

Not being sarcastic but why did they have a problem retaining talent?

ColoradoDarin
01-13-2011, 03:00 PM
Good thing we're set at WR! I hope we hit on a couple of defensive studs this year, we really could turn this thing around in a hurry.

ColoradoDarin
01-13-2011, 03:01 PM
Not being sarcastic but why did they have a problem retaining talent?

Cheap owner who didn't like to pay F/A, either his or bringing others in.

Agamemnon
01-13-2011, 03:01 PM
Not being sarcastic but why did they have a problem retaining talent?

Because they weren't willing to pay them.

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2011, 03:03 PM
Cheap owner who didn't like to pay F/A, either his or bringing others in.

Charlotte/"the Carolinas" is not much of a market. There are alot of Redskins fans there.

ant1999e
01-13-2011, 03:16 PM
And thats a good point to raise that begs the question why.

Coaching???

VT_Bronco
01-13-2011, 03:21 PM
http://walterfootball.com/freeagentscontractscar.php


Here's a link with Carolina's free agents, one of the 2011 names that jumps out as a possible pickup for Denver is Deangelo Williams. Not sure about the others.

Inkana7
01-13-2011, 03:34 PM
Richard Marshall is a pretty good CB, but if he does hit free agency, the guy we should really target is Ryan Kalil, a 2-time Pro Bowler at Center for Carolina.

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2011, 04:08 PM
Richard Marshall is a pretty good CB, but if he does hit free agency, the guy we should really target is Ryan Kalil, a 2-time Pro Bowler at Center for Carolina.

Totally.

Having Fox here may just put us in the running.

El Minion
01-13-2011, 04:44 PM
Fox didn't have personnel say in Carolina. I'm sure he gave his input, but he never made the final call.

From the Panthers bio (http://www.panthers.com/team/staff/marty-hurney/158dba70-3404-4c01-b1cc-d948ae55c100) on Marty Hurney:

It is quite a difference from the 1-15 team, which lost 15 consecutive games, that Hurney inherited after the 2001 season. With that resume, it is no surprise that Forbes.com recognized Hurney among the top 10 executives in professional sports in 2007. A year earlier, FoxSports.com had given him the same honor. Most recently, a poll by The Sporting News ranked Hurney third among the NFL's general managers for first round value in the draft behind only the Baltimore Ravens' Ozzie Newsome and the Indianapolis Colts' Bill Polian.

"Hurney is a facilitator, a consensus builder, an administrator, who can pull together all manners of resources, start a very democratic process that works well, then sit with the coach and owner and come to sharp, well-reasoned decisions," wrote Michael Wilbon of The Washington Post.

That ability is reflected in a multitude of ways. Hurney was instrumental in the selection of John Fox as Carolina's head coach. He has overseen the college and pro scouting departments. For seven consecutive seasons from 2002 through 2008, at least one player chosen in the draft became a starter. Four of those players - defensive end Julius Peppers, tackle Jordan Gross, linebacker Jon Beason and center Ryan Kalil - have been selected to the Pro Bowl. Veteran free agent signings have included running back Stephen Davis, quarterback Jake Delhomme, linebacker Mark Fields, wide receiver Ricky Proehl and most recently, defensive end Tyler Brayton.

spdirty
01-13-2011, 08:42 PM
Im sorry but rockies ownership is far from GOOD. again they have hit jackpoit a few times

You could say that 4+ years ago, but lately, and especially this offseason, they have more than shown that they know what they're doing. And you could easily say that they are the best front office among the big 4 in Colorado.

gunns
01-13-2011, 08:49 PM
Love Beason and Gross. And not a WR in the first round. I could cry with joy.

Kaylore
01-13-2011, 08:50 PM
The Monforts suck. O'Dowd is who made the team what they are, and lucking into 2 franchise players who like where they are and signed for less than market value.

I'm not going to argue for the Monforts, but what the Rockies have done isn't luck. It's been calculated and successful.

Kaylore
01-13-2011, 08:51 PM
From the Panthers bio (http://www.panthers.com/team/staff/marty-hurney/158dba70-3404-4c01-b1cc-d948ae55c100) on Marty Hurney:
"Hurney is a facilitator, a consensus builder, an administrator, who can pull together all manners of resources, start a very democratic process that works well, then sit with the coach and owner and come to sharp, well-reasoned decisions," wrote Michael Wilbon of The Washington Post.

That sounds a lot like what Elway was selling last week. It will be interesting to see if it works.

Dedhed
01-13-2011, 09:23 PM
They have long neglected the QB position, relying on mediocrity to carry them through. Those are some reasons.

Not many Qbs take the sort of nose dive Delhomme took.

spdirty
01-14-2011, 09:07 AM
Not many Qbs take the sort of nose dive Delhomme took.

That elbow thing really ****ed him up. He was a damn good quarterback for a few years too.