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LetsGoBroncos
01-10-2011, 09:17 AM
Now that we know who we are considering for a head coach do you wish we had kept McDaniels? It's a tricky question because I do wish we still had him as head coach, but with the front office situation we had now. That may not have been possible but if someone told you we could have Elway and Xanders running the front office and personnel with McD just coaching would you be happy with that? I would.

OrangeSe7en
01-10-2011, 09:20 AM
It's not a tricky question and the answer is a big fat, no.

TDmvp
01-10-2011, 09:23 AM
I think there may have been way more to the Josh firing then just bad record.

When I hear John talk about Josh's stand offishness and things like that plus baby spy gate and god only know what else.


I'm still not sure he was ready for prime time , in my eyes he hadn't did enough to get a HCing job by no means , I'm not even sure he's a great OC ... He was handed everything in N.E. including scheme and the players to run it. I only think you give HCing jobs to builders and I'm not sure Josh is/was one.

Dr. Broncenstein
01-10-2011, 09:25 AM
He should have never been hired in the first place. Let the first timers work out their problems in places like Cleveland and Detroit.

tsiguy96
01-10-2011, 09:25 AM
@mortreport
Chris Mortensen
McDaniels is coveted as an OC but there's a belief he'll be a head coach again soooner than later.


@mortreport
Chris Mortensen
@griffeyowen Oh, I agree. I'm talking 2 or 3 years probably on McDaniels as an OC before he gets his next HC job.


@mortreport
Chris Mortensen
RT @triptepper: @mortreport one question - Why? He was AWFUL as a HC! >> Just like Belichick was in Cleveland? Give it a little time

mortreport Chris Mortensen
@
@RVAparks OK, what about Shanahan "blowing it" as a young coach in Oakland? McDaniels downfall as a GM or coach? He was both at 33.

spdirty
01-10-2011, 09:26 AM
no!

Beantown Bronco
01-10-2011, 09:28 AM
Now that we know who we are considering for a head coach do you wish we had kept McDaniels? It's a tricky question because I do wish we still had him as head coach, but with the front office situation we had now. That may not have been possible but if someone told you we could have Elway and Xanders running the front office and personnel with McD just coaching would you be happy with that? I would.

If what we're talking about is simply having the head coach "coach" and the rest of the current front office handle all the gm duties, then why not allow for the option of bringing Shanny back? That would be my preference. Nobody could do more with less talent than him IMO.

LetsGoBroncos
01-10-2011, 09:32 AM
If what we're talking about is simply having the head coach "coach" and the rest of the current front office handle all the gm duties, then why not allow for the option of bringing Shanny back? That would be my preference. Nobody could do more with less talent than him IMO.

I completely agree. I screamed for 4-5 years to take the GM duties away from him and just have him coach. It's just frustrating in my opinion to feel like we had a good COACH in McD but we blew it by giving him too much control

spdirty
01-10-2011, 09:32 AM
If what we're talking about is simply having the head coach "coach" and the rest of the current front office handle all the gm duties, then why not allow for the option of bringing Shanny back? That would be my preference. Nobody could do more with less talent than him IMO.

As much as i'd love to have my old coach back, the odds of Shanny working under Elway are about as good as me taking a dump on the sun.

gyldenlove
01-10-2011, 09:32 AM
If the choice was between having Shane Lechler punt me in the nuts and having Josh Mcdaniels back as a head coach I would stock up on ice for my soon to be painfully swollen crotch.

bloodsunday
01-10-2011, 09:32 AM
I don't wish we could undo what was done earlier this season. The results were in and the cheating business sealed the deal.

I wish we could get a redo on hiring him and putting support around him -- GM, OC, DC, etc... I wish we had limited his ability to try to change EVERYTHING (Offensive scheme, defensive scheme, etc..) all at one time. It would not have been as crazy as it sounds to have hired a "offensive-minded HC" and force him to keep the offense that was in place. Pittsburgh forced Tomlin (who ran a 4 - 3 in Min) to keep LeBeau (to run a 3 - 4). That's an advantage of having a young coach, you have a little more leverage in negotiations.

Mountain Bronco
01-10-2011, 09:33 AM
No. Simple.

gunns
01-10-2011, 09:34 AM
No, I do not wish we had kept him but I'm not overly thrilled with the list that has come out.

jsco70
01-10-2011, 09:35 AM
I do not miss him as coach. I can live with some of the personnel mistakes, his tantrums, and gameday miscues. I chalk those up to inexperience and I believe he would improve in those areas at some point. However, he completely lost me with the video scandel. How stupid could someone be? I don't believe for one second he didn't know about it, and then let his so-called friend burn for it. Good riddance.

spdirty
01-10-2011, 09:35 AM
I don't wish we could undo what was done earlier this season. The results were in and the cheating business sealed the deal.

I wish we could get a redo on hiring him and putting support around him -- GM, OC, DC, etc... I wish we had limited his ability to try to change EVERYTHING (Offensive scheme, defensive scheme, etc..) all at one time. It would not have been as crazy as it sounds to have hired a "offensive-minded HC" and force him to keep the offense that was in place. Pittsburgh forced Tomlin (who ran a 4 - 3 in Min) to keep LeBeau (to run a 3 - 4). That's an advantage of having a young coach, you have a little more leverage in negotiations.

I wish we could have a redo in terms of which coach we hire. I bet we are still playing football right now if spagnuolo was our hire.

jhns
01-10-2011, 09:35 AM
Nope.

McDman
01-10-2011, 09:39 AM
I think he's going to be a good head coach if he can fix his attitude and accept the fact that he needs a real gm. It wasn't his coach ing that tore this team apart, it was ineptitude in the personnel department.

bloodsunday
01-10-2011, 09:40 AM
I wish we could have a redo in terms of which coach we hire. I bet we are still playing football right now if spagnuolo was our hire.

That's always easy to say in hindsight.

I think McD will be a head coach again. And he still might be a good one. We paid a huge price for his learning curve. That's why you surround a young guy with good influences. It also give you some "insurance" if he fails. Since he had control of everything, once he was fired we had to re-think our entire FO and all our offensive and defensive schemes are now likely to change.

Sort of like players in a scheme, coaches should be able to be replaced without blowing up the whole team.

Mr.Meanie
01-10-2011, 09:40 AM
I'm pissed they hired a young rising star, gave him all the power of someone with 20 years of experience, and then aborted the operation 1.5 years into it. The front office clearly had either no vision or no backbone, either of which is completely inexcusable.

They also fired him with no vision of who would replace him. The only thing I can hope is they pick a path and for christs sake stick with it. Give any coach time to implement their system and give your players some damn stability for once.

At this point I have zero faith in this FO to take the long view, make a choice and play it out. I think when we inevitably experience turmoil, Paige and Kiszla and the local talk radio guys are going to determine the direction this franchise goes.

Drek
01-10-2011, 09:42 AM
If what we're talking about is simply having the head coach "coach" and the rest of the current front office handle all the gm duties, then why not allow for the option of bringing Shanny back? That would be my preference. Nobody could do more with less talent than him IMO.

Not giving Shanahan GM power is a mistake about a decade old and hinged on him winning to Super Bowls. That is long term revisionist history.

Giving those same powers to McDaniels though is a mistake only two years old and one that the org. likely could have reversed this off-season.

If you put Elway into his current position and you explain to McDaniels that you want to retain him but that he will no longer be the end all/be all on football operations you likely have a working partnership.

That said, the answer would still be no. McDaniels' biggest failings weren't his FA signings (mostly solid) or draft moves (again, mostly solid). It was his inability to find and retain capable assistant coaches.

If Nolan was retained or replaced with Crennel we likely see a very different season. If a quality proven OL coach was brought in we also likely would have fared better. A special assistant who focuses on down and distance situations, time out management, challenges, etc. would also have done McDaniels a world of good in his first time around as a head coach.

The lack of that kind of delegation of responsibilities is what doomed McDaniels. It was cool seeing him coaching LBs and DBs his first camp here but it underscored a problem that ultimately doomed him to failure. His ego demanded that he micromanage everything and no human being can do that at a level high enough for NFL success.

Smiling Assassin27
01-10-2011, 09:42 AM
I think a big part of a coach's job is establishing a culture within the 53 man roster. McD spoke about it but failed in establishing that culture, IMO. I believe a guy like Fox is strong in this regard. In McD's defense, the quality of talent brought in made his job twice as hard as it should've been, but he's only got himself to blame for that.

This team must think of itself as a defensive-run first team and McD did not create that culture in Denver, probably because he's an offensive guy. Fox is a defensive guy who has a track record as a run-heavy coach with a defense that flies to the ball. I believe this is what separates defensive candidates from offensive ones--Rivera and Fewell would bring the same, IMO, but Fox has a track record.

bronco militia
01-10-2011, 09:44 AM
the cutler debacle should have been everyone's first clue that Mcdummy wasn't ready for primetime.

Gcver2ver3
01-10-2011, 09:44 AM
unfortunatley, no...

Drek
01-10-2011, 09:46 AM
I don't wish we could undo what was done earlier this season. The results were in and the cheating business sealed the deal.

I wish we could get a redo on hiring him and putting support around him -- GM, OC, DC, etc... I wish we had limited his ability to try to change EVERYTHING (Offensive scheme, defensive scheme, etc..) all at one time. It would not have been as crazy as it sounds to have hired a "offensive-minded HC" and force him to keep the offense that was in place. Pittsburgh forced Tomlin (who ran a 4 - 3 in Min) to keep LeBeau (to run a 3 - 4). That's an advantage of having a young coach, you have a little more leverage in negotiations.
Except the offense in place was just aping what McDaniels was doing in New England and Bates was simply not going to stay around in any kind of role where he wasn't keeping control of the offense.

spdirty
01-10-2011, 09:46 AM
That's always easy to say in hindsight.


Yeah right. It was easy as hell to say back then too when at least half the fanbase including me didn't agree with this hire because they wanted Spag. I looked at the hiring of McDaniels at the time as a kick in the nuts, just like many other Bronco fans.


I think McD will be a head coach again. And he still might be a good one.


Yeah he'll be a head coach again because teams are stupid, but I highly doubt he will ever be a successful head coach.

We paid a huge price for his learning curve. That's why you surround a young guy with good influences. It also give you some "insurance" if he fails. Since he had control of everything, once he was fired we had to re-think our entire FO and all our offensive and defensive schemes are now likely to change.

Sort of like players in a scheme, coaches should be able to be replaced without blowing up the whole team.

That looks a lot like what the Steelers did with Tomlin. And i agree with that.

Dr. Broncenstein
01-10-2011, 09:48 AM
the cutler debacle should be everyone's first clue that Mcdummy wasn't ready for primetime.

The McDaniels hire should have been the first clue that Pat isn't hitting on all cylinders.

misturanderson
01-10-2011, 09:48 AM
I'm pissed they hired a young rising star, gave him all the power of someone with 20 years of experience, and then aborted the operation 1.5 years into it. The front office clearly had either no vision or no backbone, either of which is completely inexcusable.

They also fired him with no vision of who would replace him. The only thing I can hope is they pick a path and for christs sake stick with it. Give any coach time to implement their system and give your players some damn stability for once.

At this point I have zero faith in this FO to take the long view, make a choice and play it out. I think when we inevitably experience turmoil, Paige and Kiszla and the local talk radio guys are going to determine the direction this franchise goes.
The problem was that the fanbase was calling for McD's head before he even coached a game.

It was a PR nightmare from the very beginning, a lot of which I think can be attributed to his ties to the patriots.

He just didn't have the team necessary (despite the record, the 2008 team sucked ass and was largely healthy outside of the RB position), and didn't do nearly enough to improve it, to start competing as quickly as he needed to because of how short a leash he was given by the general fanbase. If he had been an established HC (from a different team) and done the exact same thing, he would still be here.

Kaylore
01-10-2011, 09:48 AM
When you factor in Tebow's development, how well Orton was playing and Lloyd's production, as well the chance to try the season with Dumervil healthy and another year in the system....

No I'm sorry. He had to go. SpyGate was the last straw. Bowlen cans guys if they go 8-8. Shanahan got a pass for three years because he was Shanny. Time to move on.

Drek
01-10-2011, 09:48 AM
the cutler debacle should have been everyone's first clue that Mcdummy wasn't ready for primetime.

You mean where he traded a malcontent looking for a big albatross contract for a king's ransom?

Trading a future 1st for a current 2nd was his first big mistake and showed a short term view of team building (which most coaches have). His second was not retaining Nolan or at least replacing him with an equal or more qualified DC.

LetsGoBroncos
01-10-2011, 09:48 AM
I'm pissed they hired a young rising star, gave him all the power of someone with 20 years of experience, and then aborted the operation 1.5 years into it. The front office clearly had either no vision or no backbone, either of which is completely inexcusable.

They also fired him with no vision of who would replace him. The only thing I can hope is they pick a path and for christs sake stick with it. Give any coach time to implement their system and give your players some damn stability for once.

At this point I have zero faith in this FO to take the long view, make a choice and play it out. I think when we inevitably experience turmoil, Paige and Kiszla and the local talk radio guys are going to determine the direction this franchise goes.

I couldn't agree with you more. This is the problem I had....we hired a guy with the idea that it would take some time to rebuild, and then we we are right in the middle of the rebuild (Tebow, Moreno, DT, Ayers) we fire him and start over without a plan.

bloodsunday
01-10-2011, 09:49 AM
Except the offense in place was just aping what McDaniels was doing in New England and Bates was simply not going to stay around in any kind of role where he wasn't keeping control of the offense.

If you look at the example I made (Tomlin and LeBeau), I'm suggesting we could have kept Bates -- particularly because of his new contract -- and forced McD to keep that offense in place. It's not unheard of, particularly with young HCs. We just allowed him to take it all over.

Maybe McD would have refused those terms? Then you move to your next candidate, probably Spagnolou.

TDmvp
01-10-2011, 09:49 AM
@mortreport
Chris Mortensen
McDaniels is coveted as an OC but there's a belief he'll be a head coach again soooner than later.


@mortreport
Chris Mortensen
@griffeyowen Oh, I agree. I'm talking 2 or 3 years probably on McDaniels as an OC before he gets his next HC job.


@mortreport
Chris Mortensen
RT @triptepper: @mortreport one question - Why? He was AWFUL as a HC! >> Just like Belichick was in Cleveland? Give it a little time

mortreport Chris Mortensen
@
@RVAparks OK, what about Shanahan "blowing it" as a young coach in Oakland? McDaniels downfall as a GM or coach? He was both at 33.



Yea man we get it , You love the guy ...
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/7118/mcdaniels.jpg

OrangeSe7en
01-10-2011, 09:51 AM
Yea man we get it , You love the guy ...
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/7118/mcdaniels.jpg

Oh, wow. I don't care who you are. Thats hilarious!

frerottenextelway
01-10-2011, 09:51 AM
I wish we could hire him back for a day so we could fire his sorry ass a second time.

bloodsunday
01-10-2011, 09:52 AM
At this point I have zero faith in this FO to take the long view, make a choice and play it out. I think when we inevitably experience turmoil, Paige and Kiszla and the local talk radio guys are going to determine the direction this franchise goes.

I think the empty stadium hurt both Orton and McD's chances as well. The current culture of NFL teams that ALWAYS wants to start the young, hot-thing at QB is just as laughable IMO. Orton should be the QB while we give Tebow time. But the fan base is ready for Tebow to be the starter now and the Broncos caved.

I think some of that is just the culture of today's NFL and some of it is a function of a changing crowd at Invesco (from the Mile High Stadium days).

titan
01-10-2011, 09:53 AM
No. McDaniels biggest failing was his poor drafting, in my opinion, and having him just be the coach on the surface seems to fix that problem. BUT McDaniels interpersonal skills are also what got him fired. Not being able to work with Nolan - a fine defensive coordinator. The Cutler mess (Jay had a part in this but Josh could have handled it better). Not handling adversity well (I will always remember him standing alone on the sidelines, staring at his clipboard, as the Raiders racked up score after score in the first half at Invesco this year). Chewing out assistant coaches and players in front of the team. McD was personable in the public meetings I saw him at but he didn't really seem to enjoy this role - Elway said "Josh didn't like to talk to anybody" when describing McD's pr skills.

Was he a good qb coach? Yes. A decent offensive strategist? yes (the 6-0 start in 2009 wasn't just luck). The other factors, though, tell me Josh is not head coach material, and may never be. From Bronco history there have been other good assistants who just weren't good as head coaches (Joel Collier and Wade Phillips to name two).

spdirty
01-10-2011, 09:54 AM
That said, the answer would still be no. McDaniels' biggest failings weren't his FA signings (mostly solid) or draft moves (again, mostly solid). It was his inability to find and retain capable assistant coaches.

Wow. I agree with the assisstant coaches, but damn, do you really think this team has more talent than in 2008? I mean, if this guys drafting and free agent signings were mostly solid, you'd have to say we have more talent than in '08 right?

strafen
01-10-2011, 09:54 AM
Now that we know who we are considering for a head coach do you wish we had kept McDaniels? It's a tricky question because I do wish we still had him as head coach, but with the front office situation we had now. That may not have been possible but if someone told you we could have Elway and Xanders running the front office and personnel with McD just coaching would you be happy with that? I would.I can't believe some people have been unable to quantify the damage done by Mcdaniels to even consider having him back.
seriously?

My answer is HELL NO!!!!!

Likwid Kerruj
01-10-2011, 09:55 AM
I wasn't opposed to the hire, but I wanted him gone the second the Cutler for Cassel **** came out.

strafen
01-10-2011, 09:56 AM
You mean where he traded a malcontent looking for a big albatross contract for a king's ransom?

Trading a future 1st for a current 2nd was his first big mistake and showed a short term view of team building (which most coaches have). His second was not retaining Nolan or at least replacing him with an equal or more qualified DC.I'm pretty sure you defended those moves at the time, didn't you?

bronco militia
01-10-2011, 09:57 AM
You mean where he traded a malcontent looking for a big albatross contract for a king's ransom?

DC.

no, that was the result of his first mistake.

spdirty
01-10-2011, 09:59 AM
I wish we could hire him back for a day so we could fire his sorry ass a second time.

LOL me too. But make it a public firing like on the apprentice. Have John Elway just run off a list of things he failed at, call him a failure in life and a loser, then fire his ass and have security (Romo) escort him out of the building.

Then trade for Hillis, bring McD's wife in there, say "I think you 2 have some catching up to do" and leave the building.

Great way to reconnect with the fans.

cmhargrove
01-10-2011, 10:01 AM
I'll be completely honest.

If you look at all my previous posts, I have been a big McD supporter, but I can clearly say that he deserved to get fired. In his next job, I believe he will learn to me more adaptable with his assistant coaches, players, schemes, etc..

I really support the Cutler move (even now), i'm even pretty good with the Marshall move, but moves like Hillis and Maroney baffled me. I would even look back to the release of Weigmann with a little confusion. Our lack of run game killed us. In the long run, Kyle Orton just wasn't Tom Brady and the whole thing fell apart.

Give me a HC who brings in solid coordinators and lets them do their thing. The HC himself doesn't need to be anything flashy, just someone who coordinates the whole circus and brings back a tougher Broncos mentality (starting with the run game and good defense).

tsiguy96
01-10-2011, 10:07 AM
I'll be completely honest.

If you look at all my previous posts, I have been a big McD supporter, but I can clearly say that he deserved to get fired. In his next job, I believe he will learn to me more adaptable with his assistant coaches, players, schemes, etc..

I really support the Cutler move (even now), i'm even pretty good with the Marshall move, but moves like Hillis and Maroney baffled me. I would even look back to the release of Weigmann with a little confusion. Our lack of run game killed us. In the long run, Kyle Orton just wasn't Tom Brady and the whole thing fell apart.

Give me a HC who brings in solid coordinators and lets them do their thing. The HC himself doesn't need to be anything flashy, just someone who coordinates the whole circus and brings back a tougher Broncos mentality (starting with the run game and good defense).

im basically spot on in agreement with you. weigman got beat pretty regularly for us last year however. i understand why mcd was fired and frankly not too upset about it, but to act like he destroyed the franchise and was the worst thing to ever happen to denver is crazy.

Drek
01-10-2011, 10:11 AM
If you look at the example I made (Tomlin and LeBeau), I'm suggesting we could have kept Bates -- particularly because of his new contract -- and forced McD to keep that offense in place. It's not unheard of, particularly with young HCs. We just allowed him to take it all over.

Maybe McD would have refused those terms? Then you move to your next candidate, probably Spagnolou.

And if you actually read my response you might have a clue.

The offense you're talking about keeping in place was McDaniels' own offense, just aped from afar by Bates. Tomlin was joining an organization with a HoF level DC and a 20 year tradition of running one particular scheme, a scheme completely unrelated to the one Tomlin worked in before.

You're argument is like someone arguing for the Patriots to keep Cassel at starting QB instead of Brady a couple of years ago, and sit Brady on the bench because they had some success with Cassel the year before.

You do not hire McDaniels only to let Bates continue to run a copycat of McDaniels' own offense. Therefore Bates leaves for a position where he isn't second fiddle to a more accomplished offensive coach.

oubronco
01-10-2011, 10:13 AM
If they would've hired Spagnola in the first place kept the offense and fixed the defense we would've been way better off and playing in the playoffs

DrFate
01-10-2011, 10:14 AM
I wouldn't want McDaniels selling concessions, parking cars, or anything else to do with this franchise

I said he should have been fired when the first Matt Cassel scandal began (before coaching a game) and I stand by that

jhns
01-10-2011, 10:18 AM
He just didn't have the team necessary (despite the record, the 2008 team sucked ass and was largely healthy outside of the RB position), and didn't do nearly enough to improve it,

LOL

Wtf? That team had more injuries than this years team... What were you watching?

Drek
01-10-2011, 10:20 AM
I'm pretty sure you defended those moves at the time, didn't you?

At the time I said I wasn't a fan of trading future picks for later round current draft picks, but that if we were doing it Smith wasn't a bad selection. Same stance I've had on here for years, that we need to be trading picks away for future value and watching it mature.

And as for Nolan, replacing him worked when Crennel, Peas, etc. were on the market and McDaniels had the opportunity to bring in a DC he could relate to personally better. He then just promoted Martindale, itself not a bad move, but proceeded to give Martindale zero support and continued to meddle. That said, Martindale's death sentence as our DC came the exact moment Dumervil tore his pec.

See, my stances aren't black and whitet. They're rational arguments. Much like how I hated trading Alphonso Smith but was happy with the fact that at least we got someone with some potential in Gronkowski back, instead of just cutting him, Thompson, or Vaughn for no return.

My takes don't consist of "McDaniels iz a ****in' GENIUS!" or "McDouche iz tearin' this team apart!" They're typically a "I like this because..." or a "I don't like this but the logic behind it might be...." posts.

TheChamp24
01-10-2011, 10:20 AM
McDaniels made horrible draft picks and trades.
We had a promising young offense, and he comes in and destroys it basically in less than 2 years.
Our defense was atrocious, and what does he do? Takes a RB with pick #12 in the 1st round, one who isn't a game changer.
And he trades away a future 1st to draft a CB, then upon trading away Pro Bowlers at QB and WR, drafts their eventual replacements in the 1st round. Out of 4 1st round picks, 3 were on the offensive side of the ball.
Please stop defending his moves people, he turned this team from a small rebuild process/fix on defense to a complete rebuild banking on progress from draft picks at key positions.

TDmvp
01-10-2011, 10:20 AM
Originally Posted by misturanderson
He just didn't have the team necessary (despite the record, the 2008 team sucked ass and was largely healthy outside of the RB position), and didn't do nearly enough to improve it,


Dude we didn't have Champ some games that year and had Lbs so banged up a FB ! played both ways at FB and MLB and still almost made the playoffs with like 10 rbs on IR ... recheck your history ..

razorwire77
01-10-2011, 10:20 AM
I think the moment we decided to hire a 32-year-old, brilliant offensive mind, but with no head coaching experience and questionable people skills we should have had the power structure in place to limit his power. Had we hired McDaniels into a situation similar to the Chiefs FO, I think he would have been much more successful and for that I have some regret. But that's all hypothetical, and given the current state of affairs that led to his dismissal, I don't see how anyone could have regrets.

jhns
01-10-2011, 10:22 AM
yea man we get it , you love the guy ...
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/7118/mcdaniels.jpg

lol

TDmvp
01-10-2011, 10:22 AM
lol

:thanku::thanku:

Dr. Broncenstein
01-10-2011, 10:25 AM
I think the moment we decided to hire a 32-year-old, brilliant offensive mind, but with no head coaching experience and questionable people skills we should have had the power structure in place to limit his power. Had we hired McDaniels into a situation similar to the Chiefs FO, I think he would have been much more successful and for that I have some regret. But that's all hypothetical, and given the current state of affairs that led to his dismissal, I don't see how anyone could have regrets.

Hiring a 32 year old first timer is something that Al Davis would do. And even Al Davis wouldn't hand over control of personnel.

Jetmeck
01-10-2011, 10:26 AM
Early x-mas present this idiot was fired. Whomever we get can only be better. He will not be let off the lease like McDummy was.............will have oversight by multiple people.

jhns
01-10-2011, 10:28 AM
Dude we didn't have Champ some games that year and had Lbs so banged up a FB ! played both ways at FB and MLB and still almost made the playoffs with like 10 rbs on IR ... recheck your history ..

Yup. We played multiple games without a single starting linebacker. We had a safety and Champ out. We were missing a d-end. These were just the injuries to the starting defense....

Play2win
01-10-2011, 10:29 AM
For the sake of the integrity of the Denver Broncos, absolutely not.

LetsGoBroncos
01-10-2011, 10:29 AM
I think the moment we decided to hire a 32-year-old, brilliant offensive mind, but with no head coaching experience and questionable people skills we should have had the power structure in place to limit his power. Had we hired McDaniels into a situation similar to the Chiefs FO, I think he would have been much more successful and for that I have some regret. But that's all hypothetical, and given the current state of affairs that led to his dismissal, I don't see how anyone could have regrets.

And that's exactly what I'm getting at. I think had we done that we would be in a much better position right now instead of looking for second tier coaches. Nobody we are interviewing truly excites me. There are a couple I'm ok with (Fewell, Fox) but none that get me excited

tsiguy96
01-10-2011, 10:33 AM
At the time I said I wasn't a fan of trading future picks for later round current draft picks, but that if we were doing it Smith wasn't a bad selection. Same stance I've had on here for years, that we need to be trading picks away for future value and watching it mature.

And as for Nolan, replacing him worked when Crennel, Peas, etc. were on the market and McDaniels had the opportunity to bring in a DC he could relate to personally better. He then just promoted Martindale, itself not a bad move, but proceeded to give Martindale zero support and continued to meddle. That said, Martindale's death sentence as our DC came the exact moment Dumervil tore his pec.

See, my stances aren't black and whitet. They're rational arguments. Much like how I hated trading Alphonso Smith but was happy with the fact that at least we got someone with some potential in Gronkowski back, instead of just cutting him, Thompson, or Vaughn for no return.

My takes don't consist of "McDaniels iz a ****in' GENIUS!" or "McDouche iz tearin' this team apart!" They're typically a "I like this because..." or a "I don't like this but the logic behind it might be...." posts.

dont you love how like 2 posts after this, there is multiple people saying "he tore this team apart!!!!" without any rational backing. there is obvious things he did wrong, but people over exaggerate those while forgetting that not everything was a total failure.

Drek
01-10-2011, 10:33 AM
Wow. I agree with the assisstant coaches, but damn, do you really think this team has more talent than in 2008? I mean, if this guys drafting and free agent signings were mostly solid, you'd have to say we have more talent than in '08 right?

Yes.

I like Tebow better than every QB we've had through here post-Elway. Unlike all the rest, except Plummer, he has shown the ability to elevate his game and his teammates' game in close and late situations. Plummer could do that as well but couldn't handle the basic responsibilities of playing QB. Tebow need work there but is well ahead of where Plummer was as a prospect and has a FAR superior tool set to start with.

Moreno is better than any back we had in '08. Including Hillis, the guy Shanahan at one point benched as starting FB for a linebacker. If Lendale White shows up in shape and ready to compete next year he's a good piece to have as well.

We've at least addressed the OL with some young talent. Hamilton and Weigmann were gone sooner than later. While it sucked watching the OL fall apart this year it got long term OG and C options in the place of two guys at or near retirement.

Our WR depth is obviously FAR superior.

TE is a wash. Graham is still here, though aged, and while Quinn and Gronkowski are nothing special they aren't the equivalent of a big WR with inconsistent game and injury problems.

On defense we have far more young talent and its all in a better system to perform in, but that goes without saying. I'd take Bannan over every DL on the '08 roster but Doom, who is now a superior player at OLB. Ayers is better than any of the OLBs we started in '08. Even with Dawkins and Hill falling off an age related cliff they're superior to pretty much every safety we trotted out in '08. Champ is still Champ, Goodman is better than Bly. Thompson and Vaughn are better than their '08 contemporaries.

On STs we have a middle of the road coverage team, which is massive improvement, lead by Bruton, a STs ace. Our K and P positions are now locked up for the foreseeable future whereas in '08 both were in turmoil (though the K is the same, he just stepped up with quality coaching).

The big problem with this team, and why it went 4-12, is that the coaching was horrifically bad and injuries hit us like a ton of bricks from day one and never stopped.

More than anything McDaniels had no answer except Tebow for red zone success and for some reason was extremely reticent to use him. If he'd made use of Tebow sooner than later we likely beat both Indy and the Jets. Maybe even J-ville. We're probably 4-2, maybe even 5-1 heading into Raiders @ Mile High and the team has a completely different attitude.

This is what I mean when I say McDaniels lack of checks and balances coaching killed him, not his FO moves. He had completely lost perspective and let hubris fuel is game plans and play calling, not sound football moves.

Drek
01-10-2011, 10:37 AM
Dude we didn't have Champ some games that year and had Lbs so banged up a FB ! played both ways at FB and MLB and still almost made the playoffs with like 10 rbs on IR ... recheck your history ..

And despite the revolving door at RB we still had a top 5 rushing game. The defense in '08 and the defense in '09 were equal levels of terribad, so that isn't worth arguing.

The injuries this year though far outstrip the '08 club. At least in '08 it was centralized to a few positions. This season every unit was hit hard.

And FYI, Larsen was a collegiate MLB who was moved to FB. Him stepping in at MLB was some posters (Kaylore for example) dream come true.

It is also still pretty ****ing retarded that we've never tried him out as a 3-4 SILB.

Odysseus
01-10-2011, 10:42 AM
It's not a tricky question and the answer is a big fat, no.

I don't get the allure of this guy.

razorwire77
01-10-2011, 10:47 AM
And that's exactly what I'm getting at. I think had we done that we would be in a much better position right now instead of looking for second tier coaches. Nobody we are interviewing truly excites me. There are a couple I'm ok with (Fewell, Fox) but none that get me excited

But that has been the Achilles heal of this franchise going back to the twilight of the Shanny era. Unregulated power to a head coach with a huge ego and a weak front office has largely led to the downward spiral of this team since 2006. McDaniels would have never been successful here, because we have no history reigning in a coach through the front office.

Whether it's Shanny refusing to fire his DC little golfing buddy, or McDaniels' poor draft and personality deficiencies the underline problem is the FO power structure.

orangemonkey
01-10-2011, 10:52 AM
When your organization is convicted of cheating, the head cheater needs to be taken out quickly. Not sure what makes me happier, knowing that McD has been banished from Denver, CO forever or that we may never see the Belicheat coaching tree and cheating ways here again. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Taco John
01-10-2011, 10:54 AM
Professor McBubblescreen is a joke. No I don't wish we'd have kept him.

Popps
01-10-2011, 10:57 AM
McDaniels will land on his feet and likely have success in the league. Ultimately, we just got him at the wrong time. Do I wish we would have kept him? I would have preferred that we either fired him after the SF game, or gave him the rest of the season. I would have liked to see him working with Tebow. After that, hard to say. Depends what kind of front-office changes would have gone on.

But, it's all spilled milk. We tried one guy... didn't work out, now we move to the next guy. No big deal. We won the same amount of playoff games last year as we did 9 out of the prior 10 years.

I hope we take our time with this search, and commit to the next coach for a true rebuilding process, though.

jhns
01-10-2011, 11:36 AM
And despite the revolving door at RB we still had a top 5 rushing game. The defense in '08 and the defense in '09 were equal levels of terribad, so that isn't worth arguing.

The injuries this year though far outstrip the '08 club. At least in '08 it was centralized to a few positions. This season every unit was hit hard.

And FYI, Larsen was a collegiate MLB who was moved to FB. Him stepping in at MLB was some posters (Kaylore for example) dream come true.

It is also still pretty ****ing retarded that we've never tried him out as a 3-4 SILB.

Again, what are you guys watching? That team had more injuries to more different positions, with players missing a lot more total games, than this years team.

What is this about a top 5 rushing attack? They were 12th in yards according to NFL.com....

It amazes me the amount of time some spend talking about the Broncos only to find that they can't get a single fact right. It says a lot about those posters opinions...

bloodsunday
01-10-2011, 12:07 PM
You do not hire McDaniels only to let Bates continue to run a copycat of McDaniels' own offense. Therefore Bates leaves for a position where he isn't second fiddle to a more accomplished offensive coach.

Then you don't hire McDaniels at all. The point of a head coach is to be a the man in charge. And he has plenty of work to do without trying to be one (or both) of the coordinators as well.

If Bates ran the same offense, then all the more reason they should have been able to work together. If every coach under your head coach had to be superior, then you shouldn't have any of them. Is Ben McDaniels a better QB coach than Josh? No. But he's there to serve a purpose and fill a role.

bloodsunday
01-10-2011, 12:15 PM
We tried one guy... didn't work out, now we move to the next guy. No big deal. We won the same amount of playoff games last year as we did 9 out of the prior 10 years.

I hope we take our time with this search, and commit to the next coach for a true rebuilding process, though.

I sort of agree and sort of disagree. Obviously right now many of us are stressed because of the end result (4 - 12, second worst record). It's not hard to make a case that we could easily pick up 4 more wins and be .500. So in that sense things aren't as bad as they seem.

BUT, at some point you have get some consistency in your organization to win. We've no had a new D-coordinator almost every season in that span playoff-drought you mentioned. What's more, we change systems/philosophies nearly every as well. There is no stability there. We cannot continue to just rotate guys every year at key positions like DC.

I'm a little shaky on the John Elway hire. But I hope that at the very least Bowlen is committed to John (thanks to their success together) and will give this thing time to play out.

NUB
01-10-2011, 12:21 PM
McDaniels made horrible draft picks and trades.
We had a promising young offense, and he comes in and destroys it basically in less than 2 years.
Our defense was atrocious, and what does he do? Takes a RB with pick #12 in the 1st round, one who isn't a game changer.
And he trades away a future 1st to draft a CB, then upon trading away Pro Bowlers at QB and WR, drafts their eventual replacements in the 1st round. Out of 4 1st round picks, 3 were on the offensive side of the ball.
Please stop defending his moves people, he turned this team from a small rebuild process/fix on defense to a complete rebuild banking on progress from draft picks at key positions.

This + the immaturity, the losing, the awful playcalling, the cheating etc. etc.

Drek
01-10-2011, 12:23 PM
Again, what are you guys watching? That team had more injuries to more different positions, with players missing a lot more total games, than this years team.

What is this about a top 5 rushing attack? They were 12th in yards according to NFL.com....

It amazes me the amount of time some spend talking about the Broncos only to find that they can't get a single fact right. It says a lot about those posters opinions...

Tied for #2 in yards per attempt. Just because we threw a lot didn't mean we didn't make hay on the ground whenever we did go to it.

It amazes me how people who like to critique valid points by cherry picking one vacuous stat continually try to use that as some form of counter argument. It says a lot not just of those poster's opinions, but also of how obtuse their views are.

And in '08 I saw a team that lost a slew of RBs and other than that the only significant players who missed time were DJ and Champ, both for ~1/3rd of the year. In 2010 we got to watch a team with the three "veteran" OLs all dealing with injury issues from the pre-season, our starting RB and his backup missing time, our pro-bowl safety from the year before missing time, our 2nd year starting OLB missing over 1/3rd of the season, one of the few solid DLs we found (Vickerson) being injury plagued, etc.. Oh, and our best defensive player on the entire roster (Doom) missed the entire season.

But hey, thats just me. Quantity over quality and all that. Its a personal choice.

strafen
01-10-2011, 12:25 PM
dont you love how like 2 posts after this, there is multiple people saying "he tore this team apart!!!!" without any rational backing. there is obvious things he did wrong, but people over exaggerate those while forgetting that not everything was a total failure.3-11 was a total failure.
Getting rid of coaches, players, talent, whether voluntary or whatever, classifies as tearing the team apart.
This team is closer to an expansion team that anything else pre-McDaniesl.
Thanks to the a-hole, we're now in a terrible mess. Thanks to that a-hole, we've had the worse record in team history.
I'm sure whatever good you think he did, would trump what I just said... :wave:

Drek
01-10-2011, 12:29 PM
Then you don't hire McDaniels at all. The point of a head coach is to be a the man in charge. And he has plenty of work to do without trying to be one (or both) of the coordinators as well.

If Bates ran the same offense, then all the more reason they should have been able to work together. If every coach under your head coach had to be superior, then you shouldn't have any of them. Is Ben McDaniels a better QB coach than Josh? No. But he's there to serve a purpose and fill a role.

Good god man.

Yes, if Bates was up for actually working under McDaniels it could have been an excellent pairing. But Bates didn't want that. Bates wanted to run the show offensively wherever he was and so when McDaniels came in his departure was a foregone conclusion.

Its not about coaches being superior, just that Bates and McDaniels serve the same role (offensive play caller). I'd love it if Bates would have stayed here and worked with McDaniels. But he didn't want that and the entire reason you hire McDaniels is so he can take the copycat offense and make it the real thing.

Now maybe we'd have been better off going with Bates' copycat offense and getting a defensive HC. Sure looks like that in hindsight. But at the time McDaniels was the hot young coaching prospect.

The argument that McD should have found a way to co-exist with Bates doesn't work because Bates wouldn't let himself co-exist with McD. The more important argument is why hire McD if you liked where the offense was at? All we can assume is that those doing the hiring weren't pleased with the offense.

strafen
01-10-2011, 12:29 PM
Tied for #2 in yards per attempt. Just because we threw a lot didn't mean we didn't make hay on the ground whenever we did go to it.

It amazes me how people who like to critique valid points by cherry picking one vacuous stat continually try to use that as some form of counter argument. It says a lot not just of those poster's opinions, but also of how obtuse their views are.

And in '08 I saw a team that lost a slew of RBs and other than that the only significant players who missed time were DJ and Champ, both for ~1/3rd of the year. In 2010 we got to watch a team with the three "veteran" OLs all dealing with injury issues from the pre-season, our starting RB and his backup missing time, our pro-bowl safety from the year before missing time, our 2nd year starting OLB missing over 1/3rd of the season, one of the few solid DLs we found (Vickerson) being injury plagued, etc.. Oh, and our best defensive player on the entire roster (Doom) missed the entire season.

But hey, thats just me. Quantity over quality and all that. Its a personal choice.

He's not cherry picking squat. He just called you out on the stats you've provided without any backing. That's all...

Drek
01-10-2011, 12:35 PM
He's not cherry picking squat. He just called you out on the stats you've provided without any backing. That's all...

Yes. Because cumulative stats are the be all and end all.

Batting average is junk, total hits is where its at.

Completion percentage? Junk too. How many total completions is all that matters.

Emmit Smith has the most rushing TDs and yards in a career, therefore he's unquestionably the best RB of all time.

What flawless logic. With this approach we can stop having all those "best XXX of all time?" debates. Just look at who racked up the most numbers.

jhns
01-10-2011, 12:40 PM
Tied for #2 in yards per attempt. Just because we threw a lot didn't mean we didn't make hay on the ground whenever we did go to it.

It amazes me how people who like to critique valid points by cherry picking one vacuous stat continually try to use that as some form of counter argument. It says a lot not just of those poster's opinions, but also of how obtuse their views are.

And in '08 I saw a team that lost a slew of RBs and other than that the only significant players who missed time were DJ and Champ, both for ~1/3rd of the year. In 2010 we got to watch a team with the three "veteran" OLs all dealing with injury issues from the pre-season, our starting RB and his backup missing time, our pro-bowl safety from the year before missing time, our 2nd year starting OLB missing over 1/3rd of the season, one of the few solid DLs we found (Vickerson) being injury plagued, etc.. Oh, and our best defensive player on the entire roster (Doom) missed the entire season.

But hey, thats just me. Quantity over quality and all that. Its a personal choice.

So having a good average means something? Since when were rushing attacks based on averages? We couldn't run more or some of the cell phone salesmen that we were using wouldn't have kept those averages. Shanahan knowing what he was doing and all that.... We were 12th in rushing.

Your excuses for your lack of paying attention on the injuries are just funnt. 7 of 11 defensive STARTERS were injured that season. Sure, that didn't hurt at all... It says a lot about how horrible McDaniels was with personnel when a defense that has that many injuries, and Slowik, outperforms what McDaniels put on the field...

Talk about one sided views. You hate on everything Shanahan and still try to defend McDaniels.. Facts be damned.... Sad.

bloodsunday
01-10-2011, 12:45 PM
The argument that McD should have found a way to co-exist with Bates doesn't work because Bates wouldn't let himself co-exist with McD.
Bates had a fat new contract. He had to come to work. And I'm not suggesting that McD should have had the play calling (thus taking it away from Bates). In fact, I'm arguing the opposite. The head coach should focus on coaching the entire team instead of calling plays, particularly when the head coach is young and the offense in place was seemingly on the rise. If McD didn't like that deal, tough. IMO a smarter move would have been to force McD to accept Bates (and his role) and have them work together to coordinate the offense leaving Bates to call plays on Sundays. Again, follow the Steelers' model.

The more important argument is why hire McD if you liked where the offense was at? All we can assume is that those doing the hiring weren't pleased with the offense.
I'm not trying to play the hindsight game. I have no problems with the fact that they hired an offensive-minded HC or that they hired a young, unproven coach, or that McD was the hottest candidate going. My problem is with the fact that they gave him all the power and he went hog-wild with it.

Drek
01-10-2011, 12:59 PM
Bates had a fat new contract. He had to come to work. And I'm not suggesting that McD should have had the play calling (thus taking it away from Bates). In fact, I'm arguing the opposite. The head coach should focus on coaching the entire team instead of calling plays, particularly when the head coach is young and the offense in place was seemingly on the rise. If McD didn't like that deal, tough. IMO a smarter move would have been to force McD to accept Bates (and his role) and have them work together to coordinate the offense leaving Bates to call plays on Sundays. Again, follow the Steelers' model.

But HCs call the offense throughout the league and the general consensus at the time was that McD was a far superior play caller to Bates.

Also, Bates was only a QB coach, despite being the play caller. He could leave for any OC job, unless McD was willing to bump him up to OC and not hire McCoy (possible). Even still, Bates left to become the OC for USC and so his NFL contract wouldn't matter. He had options. Working under McD wasn't one he wanted to take, plain and simple.

I'm not trying to play the hindsight game. I have no problems with the fact that they hired an offensive-minded HC or that they hired a young, unproven coach, or that McD was the hottest candidate going. My problem is with the fact that they gave him all the power and he went hog-wild with it.
Sure. But the best ways to fix that would be having him work with a real GM who could help him find staff at his weak spots, not retaining a guy at his strongest skill set. Someone who helps show him the need to let his assistants do their jobs and also help him find qualified assistants.

My hope was that when McDaniels came here and instantly brought Nolan it was him setting up a system where he'd have a DC fresh off being an HC to give him advice. Now we see that it was an agent arranged marriage and their personal relationship did more harm than good. That is the real missed opportunity from within McDaniels' coaching staff.

It also underscores just how much power Bob LaMonte carries throughout the NFL. He was the agent for McD, Nolan, and McCoy. He basically put together our staff the last go 'round.

tsiguy96
01-10-2011, 01:01 PM
are people actually making the case that bates is a better offensive mind and playcaller than mcdaniels? wowzers

jhns
01-10-2011, 01:04 PM
Emmit Smith has the most rushing TDs and yards in a career, therefore he's unquestionably the best RB of all time.


First off, who on this planet (other than you) would claim a rushing attack that gained 2000 + @ 4.0 a carry is better than a 1500 yard rushing attack that gained 4.5 per carry? That is weird thinking. Averages tend to go down with more data and the rushing attack that gained a ton more yards is one that was used a ton more. Do you really think a team that rushed 25+ times a game doesn't have defenses scheming against the run more than a team that rushes 15 times a game? The one that can rush 25+ a game is one that has a rushing game good enough to always go back to... You have interesting logic that doesn't fit in reality.

Who exactly is a better RB? Smith has by far the best career of all time. How can you claim a different guy is better? By using theoretical qualifiers? Again, facts don't seem to be your thing.

By the way, the best home run hitter of all time is the guy with the most home runs. The best hitter of all time has the most hits... Etc.... Is this really up for debate?

jhns
01-10-2011, 01:19 PM
are people actually making the case that bates is a better offensive mind and playcaller than mcdaniels? wowzers

Bates, who directed a Broncos offense that was younger at all but two positions (only one position one of the years), scored more points and gained a lot more yards than any offense that McDaniels had here. The offense that McDaniels was in charge of before, and the one that got him recognized as a great offisive mind, is doing great without him.

I never argued that but it seems the evidence shows Bates knows how to call an offense better than McDaniels. McDaniels needs one of the most talented offenses to ever play the game, and a great coach above him, to have any success.

NUB
01-10-2011, 03:21 PM
I'd take Bates over McDaniels. He has proven he can do it with varying levels of talent against different talent as well (AFC/NFC). McDaniels has proven he can run along with the well oiled Patriots machine which does not appear to be missing him at all. Hell, Bates leaving Denver led to a substantially worse offense here. McDaniels leaving New England led to Tom Brady having a career year. I don't know what "offensive mind" people see in McDaniels.

go_broncos
01-10-2011, 04:13 PM
Now that we know who we are considering for a head coach do you wish we had kept McDaniels? It's a tricky question because I do wish we still had him as head coach, but with the front office situation we had now. That may not have been possible but if someone told you we could have Elway and Xanders running the front office and personnel with McD just coaching would you be happy with that? I would.

my honest opinion -

I am amazed how well he improves other teams without even coaching them.

Inkana7
01-10-2011, 04:19 PM
Hiring a 32 year old first timer is something that Al Davis would do. And even Al Davis wouldn't hand over control of personnel.

Yeah, John Madden was a terrible hire for Al.

Hamrob
01-10-2011, 05:22 PM
No...he made a huge mess and I question whether he ever had the players respect as well.

I'm not thrilled with the coaching list available either. I wish to heck we would have hired Frazier the last time around!

Fewell is my guess at this point. I'm not sure that Fox is willing to take a pay cut and report to both Xanders and Elway. I hope it's not Greg Williams....did you see how that Saints defense looked like against the Seahags?

Hamrob
01-10-2011, 05:26 PM
are people actually making the case that bates is a better offensive mind and playcaller than mcdaniels? wowzersI don't think it's a bad argument myself.

I never saw the creativity in what McDaniels did. I give him credit for execution...in terms of yards and big plays. But, his running game was absolutely atrocious and he has no clue about how to utilize a TE.

Bates is just as good im my opinion.

Inkana7
01-10-2011, 05:59 PM
I don't think it's a bad argument myself.

I never saw the creativity in what McDaniels did. I give him credit for execution...in terms of yards and big plays. But, his running game was absolutely atrocious and he has no clue about how to utilize a TE.

Bates is just as good im my opinion.

Jeremey Bates' running game this year was ranked 32nd.

OrangenBlueOhio
01-10-2011, 06:33 PM
Now that we know who we are considering for a head coach do you wish we had kept McDaniels? It's a tricky question because I do wish we still had him as head coach, but with the front office situation we had now. That may not have been possible but if someone told you we could have Elway and Xanders running the front office and personnel with McD just coaching would you be happy with that? I would.

no

I'd take Wade Phillips back before that douche. I hated Wade. But at least he wasn't sent by belichik to destroy our team from within.

Wes Mantooth
01-10-2011, 06:36 PM
No.

Merlin
01-10-2011, 07:38 PM
I see another thread has once again surfaced attempting to justify the argument that McD was wrongfully fired, and as usual, we see the insightful posts explaining the benefits of McDís coaching and personnel decisions, so I figured I would encapsulate some of the arguments and from there go to the obvious conclusion of McDs future in next yearís NFL season.

1. The first point that needs to be established is that before McD came, the talent base in the Broncos was craptastic. Luckily, McD and FO had a boatload of draft choices (numerous in the first 3 rounds) and the opportunity to do many hires through FA. Now this should be a cake walk. Improving on craptastic does not take much football intellect.

-Now the most optimistic comparisons between before and after McD have the player personnel either being slightly worse, a push or slightly better. So, despite all the draft choices and FAs, it was difficult to improve on craptastic talent. OK, just a little unlucky.

-The GM that drafted the craptastic talent in the previous 3 yrs prior to McD must be let go, now lets replace him with...better leave this one alone. It was just an unlucky turn of fate for McD.

2. We all know that Shanny had Slowik, so clearly, the team needed to improve its coaching personnel. McD hires Nolan, huge improvement, but then he leaves, and so do the best coaches from the Shanny era. No matter, McD is a superior football intellect; he will replace them with better talent.

-Despite the same or slightly better talent, Denver will have one of its worse records in history, and its record in the last 22 games is 5-17. Well, itís the injuries. But the incompetent Slowik had as many or more injuries, far worse talent, a turnover machine on offense, how is his defense no worse than this yrís? Well, you gotta remember Cutler passed the ball a lot...oh good point. We have a great offense this yr, look at Orton and Lloydís numbers, that should give us...3-9??? But that craptastic team, with lousy coaching was 8-8 and a game from winning the division. Yes, but this is a smarter, tougher team, composed of personnel of much better character.

-OK, but McD was 11-17, just 3 games away from 500 avg, why would he be let go??? Clearly the team was headed in the right direction. Look at some of the great stats, and Doom (who was part of the 2-8 team with a lousy defensive record in the last 10 games last yr) was going to singlehandedly transform this defense. Well, some people like to point out he was trending to the cellar 5-17. Yeah, but you gotta look at his whole record. Oh you mean like people like to pick and chose which yrs to look at with Shanny? Donít look at the AFC Championship finals yr (where he lost to the SB winner), look at the yrís where he was rebuilding. And donít look at his last yrís offense, just pick and choose which games get to be counted in the data analysis. OK

3. One last point, we do have great stats with Orton and Lloyd! Yes, but the haters like to point out the win/loss differential, the 3rd down conversion rate, the 4th Qtr TD/Int ratio and QB rating when the game differs by 7 or less points. Yeah, but Cutler had all of those RBs, so they were fresher, so they didnít have to play as much so they performed better, and the OL had rookies and young guys playing new positions, so they had more energy and the opposition hadnít figured them out yet.

OK, so McD was not truly able to improve on craptastic talent despite a boatload of draft choices (many of them in the first 3 rounds), did not improve on the one lousy coordinator, but encouraged out all of the good ones. Forced out Goodman for... Well, we have great stats from the QB and WR and they do not cost us a boatload of money. Win loss record does not matter, because he is that close to being 500, this failure was all a fantasy creation of the media and the sheep fans who have no independent thought.

Since McD is such a great talent evaluator, coach, and personnel man, in a sport worth hundreds of millions of dollars he will be quickly picked up because other teams have experts and they know McDís worth.

Will he be hired as a GM next yr??? Well, thatís not fair, he wants to coach

Will he be hired as a GM/Coach next yr??? Again, he doesnít want all the power just final decision

Will he be hired as a HC with final decision? He is just young HC, he needs a good GM and will be stellar

Will he be hired as a HC by a strong GM??? Well, he probably wants to learn from this yr, so he will not pursue jobs. Oh...OK

PS, the argument that Bates had to go (btw, other than myself and Alec, not many people posted negative comments about Bates and the offense in the middle of the 08 season) because we brought the real deal for the offense, is patently absurd. The offense borrowed from the Patriots, but it was not the Patriots offense by any stretch of the imagination. How do we know that, because McD totally transformed the offense and running game to install his model after he took over. This offense bears no resemblance to the one run by Bates in Denver. McD's model at best has been mediocre, Bates' model was extremely productive but needed to be more disciplined in the RZ, which is what McD should have taught Bates. So yes, the Pittsburgh model for the hire would have been far better in the offense as well.

Bronco Yoda
01-10-2011, 07:41 PM
Yea man we get it , You love the guy ...
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/7118/mcdaniels.jpg

Hilarious!

KipCorrington25
01-10-2011, 07:42 PM
Oh lord no I hated that beady eyed smarmy little liar and cheater the second he released Mike Leach to bring in the older and twice as expensive Paxton from New England... I just remember the bad feeling in my stomach like this idiot doesn't know WTF he's doing and sure enough first impressions can be very insightful.

Merlin
01-10-2011, 07:42 PM
Jeremey Bates' running game this year was ranked 32nd.
Bates's OL is far worse than Denver's and they lost their guru before the season even started (he retired). So they had no one to truly implement the ZBS, and it has been a handicap the whole season. McD on the other hand has absolutely no excuse for how he utterly destroyed Denver's rushing attack.

Bronco Yoda
01-10-2011, 07:49 PM
McD failed at EVERY aspect of his job. He simply wasn't up for the job. Not that complicated. I wish it wouild have turned out different.

waz06
01-10-2011, 08:43 PM
Now that we know who we are considering for a head coach do you wish we had kept McDaniels?

Hell ****in No !!!

As someone mentioned in another thread he was never really a Denver Bronco.

Drek
01-10-2011, 08:50 PM
PS, the argument that Bates had to go (btw, other than myself and Alec, not many people posted negative comments about Bates and the offense in the middle of the 08 season) because we brought the real deal for the offense, is patently absurd. The offense borrowed from the Patriots, but it was not the Patriots offense by any stretch of the imagination. How do we know that, because McD totally transformed the offense and running game to install his model after he took over. This offense bears no resemblance to the one run by Bates in Denver. McD's model at best has been mediocre, Bates' model was extremely productive but needed to be more disciplined in the RZ, which is what McD should have taught Bates. So yes, the Pittsburgh model for the hire would have been far better in the offense as well.
Except that Bates said they were borrowing large portions of their passing game from McDaniels, which was Bates' job to work on.

If the argument was that we should have retained more of the OL and running game aspects of the old offense then why keep Bates? Why not just let Dennison stay at OC instead of demote him and keep Turner on as Asst. HC/RBs?

Its an argument that doesn't hold water. Bates was the play caller and was in charge of the QB development and passing offense. He isn't the guy we should have retained if we wanted the balanced attack to stick around.

tsiguy96
01-10-2011, 08:56 PM
mortreport Chris Mortensen
On Josh McDaniels questions, he literally can land almost anywhere as OC .

fyi

HAT
01-11-2011, 09:26 AM
Of course.

bloodsunday
01-11-2011, 12:59 PM
Sure. But the best ways to fix that would be having him work with a real GM who could help him find staff at his weak spots, not retaining a guy at his strongest skill set. Someone who helps show him the need to let his assistants do their jobs and also help him find qualified assistants.

My hope was that when McDaniels came here and instantly brought Nolan it was him setting up a system where he'd have a DC fresh off being an HC to give him advice. Now we see that it was an agent arranged marriage and their personal relationship did more harm than good. That is the real missed opportunity from within McDaniels' coaching staff.
Agreed.

bendog
01-11-2011, 01:31 PM
Being honest with my wife makes more sense than another Mcd post-mortem

backup qb
01-11-2011, 01:32 PM
Hell to the NO!