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View Full Version : Hate to say it, but the day Shanahan left, this organization went down the drain.


bronco0608
01-09-2011, 08:41 PM
Who knew Shanny was the glue that held this disfunctional organization together? Through all his absurd draft picks, free agent signings, and meglomania he kept the pride and prestige of the Broncos lofty among NFL standards. We were never the butt of jokes. But we are now.

The Broncos were always a threat because we had the Mastermind. When Shanahan left, everyone agreed it was time to leave because he had grown stale. Too many 8-8 seasons. Too many bad defenses. But, ****, we obviously needed a guy like. One guy, for better or worse, who made it work with an aloof owner, no front office. At least he was a freaking "football guy."

We are directionless now. Seriously. We all love Elway, but in no way is he qualified to be leading an organization. He's not a personel guy, he has no previous NFL front office experience. We essentially hired a guy off the street to do this. Six months ago, Elway was getting hammered with his boy at ASU, now he is "the brains" behind the front office. The only single qualification Elway has is that he threw a damn good football.

This is goofy. Joe Ellis was a marketing guy, but then he became head of the organization when Shanny left and he hired Josh Mcdaniels. Didn't end well, right? Well, thats what the **** you get when you hire a marketing guy to run your professional football team. Then on top of that, we had a GM in name, but with no power.

Oh well, this is our team. Go Broncos! If these dyfunctional clowns can run this team, there is hope for all of us to be Presidents and GMs of teams one day. What they got that we don't have?

broncocalijohn
01-09-2011, 08:43 PM
If we kept this ship in the same position, we would never have a due course. He wasnt the glue, we later found out he was helping tear the team apart. That isnt glue, those are scissors. Our GM in name only? Shanny was also our GM and I dont think he will ever be hired as a GM only when he doesnt want to coach anymore.

bowtown
01-09-2011, 08:43 PM
That's what happens when you purge a guy who had all the power for so many years without a real plan in place. I'd be concerned about Pat's mental facitilites at this point, but Doc Bronc told me not to worry.

Dr. Broncenstein
01-09-2011, 08:44 PM
It was time for Shanny to go. It just wasn't time to repeat the mistake of giving total control to a head coach. Then we picked the wrong head coach.

KevinJames
01-09-2011, 08:45 PM
Don't let hacks like Mike Florio and Peter King feed your head with this non-sense.

have faith in the team John Elway loves this team and hes going to do everything he can to move us in the right direction, just gotta be patient its not going to be a one or two year turn around most likely but hey you never know.

Jesterhole
01-09-2011, 08:47 PM
<img src="http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c101/gwiss/coolstory.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

scttgrd
01-09-2011, 08:47 PM
It was time for Shanny to go. It just wasn't time to repeat the mistake of giving total control to a head coach. Then we picked the wrong head coach.

Exactly, the right choice followed by a great mistake. It has to be right this time, or things could get to be a long term problem.

Dedhed
01-09-2011, 08:48 PM
Replace "Shanahan" with "Elway", and I think you'd be far more accurate.

Hopefully, now that he's back, we'll be relevant again.

Dr. Broncenstein
01-09-2011, 08:49 PM
That's what happens when you purge a guy who had all the power for so many years without a real plan in place. I'd be concerned about Pat's mental facitilites at this point, but Doc Bronc told me not to worry.

http://sayanythingblog.com/files/2010/11/Baghdad-Bob-746275.gif

There is nothing to worry about. Mr. Bowlen's mental state is a sharp as ever. There was no slurred speech. The lines were not rehearsed. There will be no questions, because questions are not needed.

Chris
01-09-2011, 08:49 PM
The glue while he hollowed out the team's skeleton.

We made one bad choice - hiring Mcdaniels. A big one. But not insurmountable.

ghwk
01-09-2011, 08:50 PM
Did you really start this thread and intend to defend it??? Did you forget how we did under Shanny after Elway retired? Whatever glue Shanny had holding us together was of the band aid adhesive type that quickly comes undone.

SoCalBronco
01-09-2011, 08:54 PM
Who knew Shanny was the glue that held this disfunctional organization together? Through all his absurd draft picks, free agent signings, and meglomania he kept the pride and prestige of the Broncos lofty among NFL standards. We were never the butt of jokes. But we are now.

The Broncos were always a threat because we had the Mastermind. When Shanahan left, everyone agreed it was time to leave because he had grown stale. Too many 8-8 seasons. Too many bad defenses. But, ****, we obviously needed a guy like. One guy, for better or worse, who made it work with an aloof owner, no front office. At least he was a freaking "football guy."

We are directionless now. Seriously. We all love Elway, but in no way is he qualified to be leading an organization. He's not a personel guy, he has no previous NFL front office experience. We essentially hired a guy off the street to do this. Six months ago, Elway was getting hammered with his boy at ASU, now he is "the brains" behind the front office. The only single qualification Elway has is that he threw a damn good football.

This is goofy. Joe Ellis was a marketing guy, but then he became head of the organization when Shanny left and he hired Josh Mcdaniels. Didn't end well, right? Well, thats what the **** you get when you hire a marketing guy to run your professional football team. Then on top of that, we had a GM in name, but with no power.

Oh well, this is our team. Go Broncos! If these dyfunctional clowns can run this team, there is hope for all of us to be Presidents and GMs of teams one day. What they got that we don't have?

I really enjoyed your post. Rep. :thumbsup:

The ideal situation would have been Mike remaining as HC but bringing in a great GM, although having Shanny stay on as HC and GM would still be significantly better than what we have now. While flawed as an administrator and judge of talent, he worked hard to improve in that area and two of his final three drafts were absolutely excellent. I do miss Mike and his ability to will us to at least a halfway decent record despite his flaws in the personnel aspect was very valuable trait. It was definitely something we took for granted. We learned the hard way that change is not always good.

At this point, the team would be well served to return to Shanny's proven and balanced offensive system so that we can take advantage of Tebow's non conventional talents and manufacture a strong run game even without equivalent talent. If we can pair that with a good, solid defensive mind and a commitment to getting some more defensive talent, we'll be in good shape. For all his flaws, Shanny was an amazing coach for this team. It's unfortunate we had to learn this in a painful way.

bronco0608
01-09-2011, 08:55 PM
You guys know we are the only organization that hired their former star to run it.

You don't see Barry Sanders running the Lions? What about Joe Montana in San Fran? Or how about Eric Dickerson with the Rams? Why aren't they running those teams? Because they are not freaking qualified to do it!!

Its not as if Elway worked his way up. No, he was completely a guy off the street. He has no legitimate NFL front office experience. Its like handing down the company to your son and skipping all the qualified people to do it. It's like Tommy boy.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514S53P8HJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

bowtown
01-09-2011, 09:00 PM
You guys know were are the only organization that hired there former star to run it.

You don't see Barry Sanders running the Lions? What about Joe Montana in San Fran? Or how about Eric Dickerson with the Rams? Why aren't they running those teams? Because they are not freaking qualified to do it!!

Its not as if Elway worked his way up. No, he was completely a guy off the street. He has no legitimate NFL front office experience. Its like handing down the company to your son and skipping all the qualified people to do it. It's like Tommy boy.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514S53P8HJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Maybe you didn't watch all the way to the end of that movie, but things turned out pretty darn well for Callahan Auto Parts.

bronco0608
01-09-2011, 09:01 PM
Maybe you didn't watch all the way to the end of that movie, but things turned out pretty darn well for Callahan Auto Parts.

Hilarious!

baja
01-09-2011, 09:02 PM
The glue while he hollowed out the team's skeleton.

We made one bad choice - hiring Mcdaniels. A big one. But not insurmountable.

Hiring him wasn't the mistake giving him Shanahan powers was.

theAPAOps5
01-09-2011, 09:02 PM
Because Shanny is lighting it up in his new gig. Love the dedication you guys give Shanny who has been nothing but mediocre since Elway retired. Keep building him up though. Its fun to watch.

broncocalijohn
01-09-2011, 09:02 PM
Our OP complains about Elway being in the front office but didnt hear a peep about Shanny being the GM or Ellis being in the front office where he probably shouldnt be. Difference is Elway knows his place.

schaaf
01-09-2011, 09:09 PM
What is wrong with letting a savior of a franchise, one who would do absolutely anything to make sure that they won every single week be involved in the front office. Elway knows his limits, he isn't going to make mistakes that will hurt this franchise.

baja
01-09-2011, 09:10 PM
Question;

Why are we crucifying Ellis?

bowtown
01-09-2011, 09:11 PM
What is wrong with letting a savior of a franchise, one who would do absolutely anything to make sure that they won every single week be involved in the front office. Elway knows his limits, he isn't going to make mistakes that will hurt this franchise.

Nothing so far... doesn't mean there aren't a few concerns. But here's to John. Hopefully he wins at this like he has at everything else in his life. I won't bet against it.

Royalfan19
01-09-2011, 09:12 PM
Because Shanny is lighting it up in his new gig. Love the dedication you guys give Shanny who has been nothing but mediocre since Elway retired. Keep building him up though. Its fun to watch.

The Skins, despite their troubles played better football towards the end of the season than at the beginning of it, and had 50% more wins this year than before Shanahan took over, and that's on a tougher schedule.

I wouldn't call a coach with less than a handful losing seasons in nearly 2 decades of coaching a mediocre guy.

montrose
01-09-2011, 09:12 PM
Mike is the greatest coach in Broncos history but - while light years better than where the team is now - I'm not totally convinced if he had stayed that the squad would be much better than those 2003-2004 teams that got smashed by Indy. I do agree with SoCal that I would've been intrigued to see him with a great GM but that just wasn't going to be an option and at this point in his career I personally think his best days of coaching are behind him.

If I could have Pat do something thing different back in 2008, and Taco and I have talked about this - maybe before the SD game, Buffalo game or even after the Raiders loss - I would've leaked to the media that I'm thinking about making a coaching change depending how the season finished. That would've provided a good gauge for what the fanbase and league would think regarding making a move so it didn't hit like a ton of bricks, and possibly justified the move if Shanny failed. In essence, it's exactly what Mike did to Jake before the Thanksgiving game in 2006. I just wonder how that would've changed things.

Dedhed
01-09-2011, 09:14 PM
Hiring him wasn't the mistake giving him Shanahan powers was.

Giving Shanahan Shanahan's powers was a mistake.

schaaf
01-09-2011, 09:15 PM
Nothing so far... doesn't mean there aren't a few concerns. But here's to John. Hopefully he wins at this like he has at everything else in his life. I won't bet against it.

Honestly, I think Tebow and Elway are in a lot of the same position right now, they are very raw, and could end up being a disaster but the potential for them to be great is huge. This is a great time to be a fan IMO.

Dedhed
01-09-2011, 09:16 PM
I wouldn't call a coach with less than a handful losing seasons in nearly 2 decades of coaching a mediocre guy.

What would you call a coach with 1 playoff win in his last 11 years as a HC?

Dr. Broncenstein
01-09-2011, 09:18 PM
Honestly, I think Tebow and Elway are in a lot of the same position right now, they are very raw, and could end up being a disaster but the potential for them to be great is huge. This is a great time to be a fan IMO.

I think it's in both of their best interest to spend a whole bunch of time together. Just imagine how much Tebow could learn from John, both on and off the field. And if Tebow succeeds, so does the post-football career of Elway. Will it work out? Not sure... but those two are born winners, and I wouldn't bet against them.

schaaf
01-09-2011, 09:20 PM
I think it's in both of their best interest to spend a whole bunch of time together. Just imagine how much Tebow could learn from John, both on and off the field. And if Tebow succeeds, so does the post-football career of Elway. Will it work out? Not sure... but those two are born winners, and I wouldn't bet against them.

I agree, it may never work out but we have two of the most proven winners in football history on our team right now, I am excited for the next few years because this team could really lay the foundations for something excellent.

bowtown
01-09-2011, 09:20 PM
I think it's in both of their best interest to spend a whole bunch of time together. Just imagine how much Tebow could learn from John, both on and off the field. And if Tebow succeeds, so does the post-football career of Elway. Will it work out? Not sure... but those two are born winners, and I wouldn't bet against them.

Also John could probably get some forgiveness for all those skanks he's pounded over the years. Win-win.

Popps
01-09-2011, 09:22 PM
Looks like Shanahan has things running smoothly in Washington.

gunns
01-09-2011, 09:27 PM
Elway hasn't failed yet, I'm willing to put some faith in him. To me, Shanhan had failed. Not the butt of jokes? Sorry, I'm not willing to continue going 8-8, 9-7 missing the playoffs every year because this MIGHT be the year....again. After 10 years there was more proof it was going to be mediocre....again than being THE year. We'd heard it for too long. It's always darkest before the dawn and I do believe it's been pretty damn dark. I look forward to what the possibilities are for the future of the Broncos.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-09-2011, 09:28 PM
This thread is teh win. Thanks for starting it. Totally necessary.

schaaf
01-09-2011, 09:30 PM
This thread is teh win. Thanks for starting it. Totally necessary.

hahaha Hilarious!

waz06
01-09-2011, 09:35 PM
What would you call a coach with 1 playoff win in his last 11 years as a HC?

Better than one who fails to make the playoffs ?

Dedhed
01-09-2011, 09:38 PM
Better than one who fails to make the playoffs ?

Yes. Anything else?

HAT
01-09-2011, 09:39 PM
I don't get it...Are we supposed to post jpegs from 1999 like we are from 1994 in the Chiefs playoff thread?

theAPAOps5
01-09-2011, 09:39 PM
The Skins, despite their troubles played better football towards the end of the season than at the beginning of it, and had 50% more wins this year than before Shanahan took over, and that's on a tougher schedule.

I wouldn't call a coach with less than a handful losing seasons in nearly 2 decades of coaching a mediocre guy.

Oh so you are fine with not winning the division and getting smoked in the Playoffs. That's sad, I love Shanny for the 2 SB wins but he has been mediocre since, and that is a compliment.

jsco70
01-09-2011, 09:41 PM
This thread is teh win. Thanks for starting it. Totally necessary.

What he said.

Rulon Velvet Jones
01-09-2011, 09:49 PM
You guys know we are the only organization that hired their former star to run it.

You don't see Barry Sanders running the Lions? What about Joe Montana in San Fran? Or how about Eric Dickerson with the Rams? Why aren't they running those teams? Because they are not freaking qualified to do it!!

Its not as if Elway worked his way up. No, he was completely a guy off the street. He has no legitimate NFL front office experience. Its like handing down the company to your son and skipping all the qualified people to do it. It's like Tommy boy.

Nolan Ryan co-owns the Texas Rangers now. It was pretty kickass having him around this season and having his efforts help bring the World Series to Arlington for the first time.

strafen
01-09-2011, 09:51 PM
You guys know we are the only organization that hired their former star to run it.

You don't see Barry Sanders running the Lions? What about Joe Montana in San Fran? Or how about Eric Dickerson with the Rams? Why aren't they running those teams? Because they are not freaking qualified to do it!!

Its not as if Elway worked his way up. No, he was completely a guy off the street. He has no legitimate NFL front office experience. Its like handing down the company to your son and skipping all the qualified people to do it. It's like Tommy boy.Ozzie Newsome

HEAV
01-09-2011, 10:09 PM
Shanny was spinning his wheels in Denver the last 3 years.

bowtown
01-09-2011, 10:12 PM
You guys know we are the only organization that hired their former star to run it.

You don't see Barry Sanders running the Lions? What about Joe Montana in San Fran? Or how about Eric Dickerson with the Rams? Why aren't they running those teams? Because they are not freaking qualified to do it!!

Its not as if Elway worked his way up. No, he was completely a guy off the street. He has no legitimate NFL front office experience. Its like handing down the company to your son and skipping all the qualified people to do it. It's like Tommy boy.


Ozzie Newsome


Do you see the error of your ways now?

wolf754life
01-09-2011, 10:16 PM
this thread = epic fail............

bowtown
01-09-2011, 10:17 PM
this thread = epic fail............

Wow, never would have expected that from you. How's the voodoo doll these days?

baja
01-09-2011, 10:22 PM
Giving Shanahan Shanahan's powers was a mistake.

Which why it is so damn alarming that the same mistake was made while we were still bleeding from the first one and the mistake was made with a 31 year old kid.

Maybe - maybe he could have been a great coach with a lot of FO support but to (as we now have confirmed) give him the keys the candy store. Only one thing left to think, Pat's compromised.

wolf754life
01-09-2011, 11:01 PM
Wow, never would have expected that from you. How's the voodoo doll these days?

feeling froggy???

jump!

strafen
01-09-2011, 11:10 PM
I think it's in both of their best interest to spend a whole bunch of time together. Just imagine how much Tebow could learn from John, both on and off the field. And if Tebow succeeds, so does the post-football career of Elway. Will it work out? Not sure... but those two are born winners, and I wouldn't bet against them.Damn right!

I think Tebow is for real. The notion that he is not an NFL QB has been debunked.
Like I've said on another post, a strong running game will put Tebow in a position to make easier plays and be much more powerful

Archer81
01-10-2011, 12:05 AM
Being that we are now far enough removed from Shanny's firing, we can look at it objectively. Shanny is a brilliant coach, and can do alot with a little. Facts being what they are, for a new HC (regardless of who the HC would have been, the cuts made would have been the same) to cut 30 guys speaks volumes to the lack of depth the team had. We have some young talent, and alot of fill-ins. Is it any wonder that year after year we would start strong, and then fade horribly when the games mattered? Now, we have some young talent, and alot of fill-ins...

Ideally, we should have kept Shanny as HC and put a real GM over him. If Mike did what he did with a thin cupboard of talent...what would the man have done with depth? Now we face the consequences of not drafting well for the better part of a decade, and hiring a young HC who was too green for what Bowlen expected. Things change fast in the NFL, so I do not expect the team to be down for very long, but a HC needs to be found that can deal with a young roster as well as dealing with not being the lone chef in the kitchen. As fans, we need to relax, and let things unfold and go the way they will go without freaking out.

:Broncos:

broncocalijohn
01-10-2011, 12:20 AM
this thread = epic fail............

Just when Wolf had most in his corner after at least a season of doubters (like me) who wanted Shanny gone, he still has one Josie Wales out there to finish off. Good luck Wolf!

ol#7
01-10-2011, 01:52 AM
I just dont get most of this sentiment. A decade of bad drafting? The last couple of Shanny drafts were pretty darn good!

The guys was/is an excellent game day coach, dont understand why there is so much of the ill will towards the guy. Seems like so many have an I told you so attitude about what happened in Washington this year for a guy dealing with a fat overpaid malcontent and a QB that is washed up and given up by a team from his own division. Did I miss something or is it the Skins who have the second pick in the draft?

Love the deadhead attitude of better to suck than be good/avg every year without a big payoff. Just how easy do you thing it is to win the SB? How about rebuilding on the fly while staying relevant (Shanny's true master stroke).

I'll tell you what I miss, going into every year feeling like we have a shot to make some noise, not thinking we would suck and be right about it!

Karenin
01-10-2011, 03:57 AM
That's what happens when you purge a guy who had all the power for so many years without a real plan in place. I'd be concerned about Pat's mental facitilites at this point, but Doc Bronc told me not to worry.

Dr. Bronconsteinenburgengoldstein doesn't exactly have the best track record when it comes to evaluating the medical conditions of Broncos' players. I wouldn't exactly trust his diagnosis of Pat either.

vanbrugh
01-10-2011, 05:05 AM
The slow decay this organisation has experienced over the last 5 years mirrors the state of it's owner.Both Shanahan and Mcdaniels recognized this and took advantage accordingly. Poor leadership at the very top has lead to our downfall and although Pat as the owner should answerable for this i'm no longer sure whether he know's too much about everything that goes on anymore or indeed what has gone on over the last couple of years. Seeing Pat drooling and stuttering then forgeting mid-sentence what he was saying at the press conferance was bad enough but seeing the vacant expression behind the eyes was truly heart breaking to see.
It's sad to say but even crazy AL seems more compos mentis.

2KBack
01-10-2011, 06:21 AM
I just dont get most of this sentiment. A decade of bad drafting? The last couple of Shanny drafts were pretty darn good!

The guys was/is an excellent game day coach, dont understand why there is so much of the ill will towards the guy. Seems like so many have an I told you so attitude about what happened in Washington this year for a guy dealing with a fat overpaid malcontent and a QB that is washed up and given up by a team from his own division. Did I miss something or is it the Skins who have the second pick in the draft?

Love the deadhead attitude of better to suck than be good/avg every year without a big payoff. Just how easy do you thing it is to win the SB? How about rebuilding on the fly while staying relevant (Shanny's true master stroke).

I'll tell you what I miss, going into every year feeling like we have a shot to make some noise, not thinking we would suck and be right about it!

It isn't hate to be honest. No one will ever say that they Hate Shanahan, but people will recognize his failings. By the end the true master stroke was that Shanahan managed to convince people that we were going to be good, when in reality Denver was going to stumble through a roller coaster year of .500, maybe a game or two above, squeak into the playoffs and get blown out. This years Chiefs is who were were every season (minus actually winning the division). So was the fate of Total control Shanahan, and it wasn't going to change unless someone forced it. Sure, it sucks to have a losing season, but sometimes it is necessary to make the transition and changes Denver needs to be great. Instead of putting a band-aid on our open wounds every year to put a temporary stop to the bleeding, we are finally doing the surgery necessary to heal the wound.

As for Shanahan in Washington, it's funny that dealing with a washed up QB is the problem....when it was his call to trade 2nd and 3rd round picks for him. It's funny to see him still getting a pass for having to over come the problems he causes himself.

Kaylore
01-10-2011, 06:31 AM
Sorry, but I disagree. The problems with this team were partly Shanahan's fault as the problems then are the same problems now: We don't have a legitimate front office personnel man calling the shots. Shanahan was a terrible GM and an exceptional coach, especially on game day. Shanahan's coaching guaranteed you at least two or three wins more than our team would otherwise win on it's own. It wasn't a real boost, though. And as soon as we played legit teams or made it the playoffs they were always exposed. In many ways this made Shanahan his own worst enemy because he believed we were as good as our record, and it wasn't true. It was mostly just Shanny's talent elevating our team to play above their talent level.

When he left, my hope was we'd go to a model where a GM would pick players and the coach, who pretty much always suck at picking players because they see what they want, would just coach. Bowlen let power slip back into the Coach's hands and we're muddling around at 4-12.

Shanahan left the team as an 8-8 team. It was 8-8 the next year and 4-12 the next year. I wouldn't say that "proves" he was "the glue" so much as the duck tape that kept our Gremlin for completely disintegrating on the interstate in the middle of a blizzard. It probably was going to fall apart eventually.

Hopefully we can rebuild from the ground up. Tebow is a good starting point and I like our offensive linemen, who while young, started to play better as the year went on. We build from the trenches out and get an established system, and stick to it, we can rebuild this thing.

bloodsunday
01-10-2011, 08:25 AM
Actually, Shanahan started this downward spiral. The cupboard of talent was bare when he left. This defense was already epically bad when he left.

baja
01-10-2011, 08:39 AM
If your still pissed about Shanny being fired than you now have the correct guy to hate.

It's becoming clear Joe Ellis was the guy that convinced Pat to fire Mike. As it becomes clearer with each public exposure Pat is mentally slipping it becomes also clear that Pat would be less and less likely to make the bold and radical move to fire Shanny. He would have to have been prompted by someone and that could only be Joe Ellis. The move has the Ellis MO all over it too. Do something radical and have no plan going forward. He truly is George Bush's cousin. Men without a plan.

Pick Six
01-10-2011, 09:05 AM
During the Chiefs game (on the radio), they were talking about how Ozzie Newsome has done a great job with the Ravens franchise, in keeping it very relevant for so long. I think former players CAN succeed in the front office...

Rashomon
01-10-2011, 09:09 AM
Do you see the error of your ways now?

Terrible comparison. The only thing similar about Newsome and Elway is that they are outstanding former players.

Newsome immediately went from a playing career to a job as an assignment scout, and then worked his way up an organization based upon his performance to get to his current position.

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/People/Staff/Player_Personnel/Ozzie_Newsome.aspx

Matt Millen is a better comparison of someone that has no experience being given control of an organization. I am not saying Elway is going to be that bad, but his career path matches Millen much better than Newsome.

Royalfan19
01-10-2011, 09:25 AM
Oh so you are fine with not winning the division and getting smoked in the Playoffs. That's sad, I love Shanny for the 2 SB wins but he has been mediocre since, and that is a compliment.

No team in the AFC west was able to consistently win it, it was for much of the time that Shanny was here, one of the toughest divisions in football.

There are peers that have had longer tenures with less success than Shanahan, who are hall of fame candidates - Fisher and Cowher.

If you look at a record of NFL coaches since Shanahan took over in Denver, no single coach has had more victories, and I believe Denver is either the second or third winningest franchise in the NFL during that tenure.

We can argue with orange colored glasses all day but the TC's point is obvious, since the firing of Shanahan the Broncos reputation has gone from a tough team year in and year out to a representation of how football management should not be conducted.

People now put us in the same conversation as the Buffalo Bills.... We have half as many victories as the Raiders.

No one is saying that Shanahan had us as the #1 team in the NFL, but we were also playing in a conference with Brady, Manning, and Rothlesberger, now you look at the rising AFC teams, what do they have in common? - A quarterback. Rivers, Sanchez, and Flacco, not all of these guys are elite, but they are good- and thats always been the difference maker in a stacked AFC conference.

Face it, for all his imperfections, Cutler was developing into a premier QB in the AFC, and was our best chance to get into that elite group. We trade him, set him back 3 years in his development, and set us back at least the same amount of time.

And here's the kicker, by firing shanahan we would've setback cutler 2 years anyways, thats what changing systems does, it resets alot of the stuff your young QB has learned. I remember Cutler's first year he had a serious issue of putting the ball below his numbers - which lead to overthrows. Bates corrected that, then the same issue cropped up when he was traded to Chicago, where the coaching staff had to refamiliarize themselves with him there. You look at our O-line that was great under Shanahan and how the younger guys have devolved under McDaniels. Not because McD is a bad coach, but changing systems does that to young players. Now, if Shanny was fired when drafted cutler, these issues may not have manifested at all...

If we would've kept Shanny and Cutler, and just fired Slowdick, we might be the 2 seed in the playoffs right now. Afterall, we were 8-8 with half the team on IR and no defense in 2008, thats a hell of an accomplishment in the NFL. Not to mention, if you look at the state of the AFC West, had Denver kept building and improved, we might have an iron fist over this weakened division, now with the 8-8 raiders' coach thrown out by a increasingly senile Al Davis. We might've been the new Colts: You know the drill: Cutler, Marshall, Royal, Stokely, Hillis, Scheffler, Graham, Clady, Harris. Not a bad squad, not at all.

Face it, we've fallen further than any team in 2 years - we are the poster child of how to fall from relevance in the Football world outside of Denver. Yeah, we had a bad defense, but we were young, dangerous and were always referred to as the team that had a punchers chance. Now, its more like a whimper.

Drek
01-10-2011, 09:31 AM
Terrible comparison. The only thing similar about Newsome and Elway is that they are outstanding former players.

Newsome immediately went from a playing career to a job as an assignment scout, and then worked his way up an organization based upon his performance to get to his current position.

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/People/Staff/Player_Personnel/Ozzie_Newsome.aspx

Matt Millen is a better comparison of someone that has no experience being given control of an organization. I am not saying Elway is going to be that bad, but his career path matches Millen much better than Newsome.

Except Millen stepped into a GM role and that is Newsome's job in Baltimore.

We have a GM. Not one I consider particularly good, but its clear Elway is not looking to handle the day to day FO operations.

Elway isn't going to be setting up the draft board and making the trades on draft weekend. He'll just be the overseer. He'll pick the GM (when he fires Xanders in a year or so) and he'll pick the next HC. Those guys will then make the picks, while Elway makes sure the divisions of power are maintained, that due diligence is performed on all moves, etc..

He's taking the place of Ellis, the role that Bowlen is supposed to have been serving in but got comfortable with Shanahan's unilateral rule.

To the original topic: Mike Shanahan is one of the five greatest game day coaches and also one of the five greatest offensive minds in NFL history. As a coach he's likely a sure fire HOF candidate.

But that "glue" you're referring to was Mike's ability to coach up a very bad team to make it look passable. He wasn't getting us back to the top because Mike Shanahan the GM is VERY bad.

What's worse is that Mike Shanahan the coach obviously was unwilling to acknowledge his failings as a GM and so he continually used assistants as scape goats and often broke his cardinal rule of "open competition at every position" to favor his big GM moves.

Shanahan was no longer taken seriously within his own locker room as a result. We can tell this by the half assed efforts he "extracted" from this team down the stretch our last three seasons. Or in how we saw an obviously talented Foxworth openly question Shanahan's "open competition" policy prior to being traded for a bag of peanuts.

The Broncos needed a change and so did Shanahan. Just because Bowlen/Ellis instituted the same failed organizational structure that ruined Mike Shanahan the HC with a less talented McDaniels doesn't mean it wasn't time for Shanahan to move on. Just that the people making the decisions here dropped the ball in replacing him.

TonyR
01-10-2011, 09:52 AM
If we would've kept Shanny and Cutler, and just fired Slowdick, we might be the 2 seed in the playoffs right now.

And if I had picked all the right numbers I would have won the Powerball!

For the seven thousanth time, firing Shanahan wasn't the error. Firing Shanahan without a plan and then handing total control of the football operation over to an inexperienced 32 year old was. Would we be better off today if Shanahan was still here? Yes, we would. But would we be better off next season or the season after?

misturanderson
01-10-2011, 09:59 AM
No one is saying that Shanahan had us as the #1 team in the NFL, but we were also playing in a conference with Brady, Manning, and Rothlesberger, now you look at the rising AFC teams, what do they have in common? - A quarterback. Rivers, Sanchez, and Flacco, not all of these guys are elite, but they are good- and thats always been the difference maker in a stacked AFC conference.

You lost me here. Orton was as good a QB as Flacco the whole year (with the exception being his last 2 games where he shouldn't have been playing) and is twice the QB that Sanchez is. Losing Cutler is not our problem. Our defense is 1000x the problem for our team and our record that the QB position is and that is almost as much on Shanny as it is on McDaniels. Try harder next time.

Also to dismiss the defenses (#1, #3 and #10 in yardage and #10 #6 and #3 in scoring respectively for SD, NYJ and BAL) that those "rising AFC teams" have, is flat out stupid.

Face it, we've fallen further than any team in 2 years - we are the poster child of how to fall from relevance in the Football world outside of Denver. Yeah, we had a bad defense, but we were young, dangerous and were always referred to as the team that had a punchers chance. Now, its more like a whimper.

Try again...again. Panthers 2008: 12-4 NFC South champs 2010: 2-14 #1 overall draft pick. Now THAT's a ****ing collapse. We haven't seen ****.

And just for ****s and giggles. Panthers point differentials-2008: +85 2010: -212 change: -295. Broncos point differential-2008: -78 (yet more proof that Shanny pulled probably 3 wins out of his ass that year on a team that had 4-12 or 5-11 talent) 2010: -127 change: -49.

Jason in LA
01-10-2011, 10:09 AM
Lets be real folks. As soon as the boob thread was taken down nothing good has happened to this franchise. When the thread was thriving on the main board the Broncos were on their way to a home playoff game. Since that thread was taken down the Broncos are 12-23 with two major late season collapses and one embarrassing episode after another.

bowtown
01-10-2011, 10:12 AM
Terrible comparison. The only thing similar about Newsome and Elway is that they are outstanding former players.

Newsome immediately went from a playing career to a job as an assignment scout, and then worked his way up an organization based upon his performance to get to his current position.

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/People/Staff/Player_Personnel/Ozzie_Newsome.aspx

Matt Millen is a better comparison of someone that has no experience being given control of an organization. I am not saying Elway is going to be that bad, but his career path matches Millen much better than Newsome.

Right, that was my point.

Rulon Velvet Jones
01-10-2011, 10:42 AM
Sooooo, Elway's been on the job for about a week and someone is already saying he's the next Millen? Unbelievable.

Set that bar really low, boys. Jesus.

bowtown
01-10-2011, 10:44 AM
Sooooo, Elway's been on the job for about a week and someone is already saying he's the next Millen? Unbelievable.

Set that bar really low, boys. Jesus.

I don't think anyone has said that. All anyone has said is that, as a former player, his experince and rise to FO power more closely reflects Millen's than Newsome's. Which is a fact.

misturanderson
01-10-2011, 10:46 AM
To further my discussion of point differential (which I believe is a better indicator of talent and execution than record). Here is something to ponder.

The Broncos went from -78 (8-8) in 2008 to +2 (8-8) in 2009 to -127 (4-12) in 2010. That is a change of -49 over the 2 years McDaniels was here.

For comparison here are some other teams with similar or worse dropoffs around the league over that same time period:
Baltimore: -54
Miami: -88
Buffalo: -136
Tennessee: -124
Indy: -32
NYG: -86
Dallas: -45
Washington: -44
Minnesota: -113
Arizona: -146

and most impressive, Carolina: -295

We haven't even come close to being the team with the biggest dropoff over the last 2 years. We also have had more injuries to major pieces of our team this year than many of these teams with almost zero depth due to a decade of ****ty drafting.

Let's have some perspective when crying about how terrible we've become and how far we've fallen. The only reason we weren't bottom feeders in 2008 was because the AFC west was WAY worse than it is now and Shannahan used some of his crazy luck (see: Hochuli SD game, 2 missed FGs by the saints, 3-4 dropped Ints by the browns)/coaching to pull 3 or 4 wins out of his ass with talent that had no business winning 8 games.

Rulon Velvet Jones
01-10-2011, 10:47 AM
I don't think anyone has said that. All anyone has said is that, as a former player, his experince and rise to FO power more closely reflects Millen's than Newsome's. Which is a fact.

And?

bowtown
01-10-2011, 10:51 AM
And?

But?

Mile High Shack
01-10-2011, 11:00 AM
But?

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Rulon Velvet Jones
01-10-2011, 11:00 AM
But?

I'm sorry, I thought there was a valid point to the Millen comparison. One does not equal the other.

TheReverend
01-10-2011, 11:03 AM
Sorry, but I disagree. The problems with this team were partly Shanahan's fault as the problems then are the same problems now: We don't have a legitimate front office personnel man calling the shots. Shanahan was a terrible GM and an exceptional coach, especially on game day. Shanahan's coaching guaranteed you at least two or three wins more than our team would otherwise win on it's own. It wasn't a real boost, though. And as soon as we played legit teams or made it the playoffs they were always exposed. In many ways this made Shanahan his own worst enemy because he believed we were as good as our record, and it wasn't true. It was mostly just Shanny's talent elevating our team to play above their talent level.

When he left, my hope was we'd go to a model where a GM would pick players and the coach, who pretty much always suck at picking players because they see what they want, would just coach. Bowlen let power slip back into the Coach's hands and we're muddling around at 4-12.

Shanahan left the team as an 8-8 team. It was 8-8 the next year and 4-12 the next year. I wouldn't say that "proves" he was "the glue" so much as the duck tape that kept our Gremlin for completely disintegrating on the interstate in the middle of a blizzard. It probably was going to fall apart eventually.

Hopefully we can rebuild from the ground up. Tebow is a good starting point and I like our offensive linemen, who while young, started to play better as the year went on. We build from the trenches out and get an established system, and stick to it, we can rebuild this thing.

I disagree. It became extremely transparent that he had delegated responsibility in those later years.

How many pressers did he have pre/post drafts praising the work of the Goodman's and giving them full credit for their draft work (yes, I fully agree that we still whiffed on Moss, though I think that may be more indicative of work ethic than poor talent), not to mention other indicators like Bates' calling the plays on offense.

I think OP is completely right and Denver shot themselves in the foot.

I think managing 4-12 against the two weakest divisions in football (NFCW and AFCS) along with playing the next weakest division in football TWICE (our own AFCW) is completely evidence to that point.

CEH
01-10-2011, 11:16 AM
I disagree. It became extremely transparent that he had delegated responsibility in those later years.

How many pressers did he have pre/post drafts praising the work of the Goodman's and giving them full credit for their draft work (yes, I fully agree that we still whiffed on Moss, though I think that may be more indicative of work ethic than poor talent), not to mention other indicators like Bates' calling the plays on offense.

I think OP is completely right and Denver shot themselves in the foot.

I think managing 4-12 against the two weakest divisions in football (NFCW and AFCS) along with playing the next weakest division in football TWICE (our own AFCW) is completely evidence to that point.

Guess who of the 4 ppl that interviewed a new coach in '09 didn't have Josh #1. Guess which 3 are still in charge and looking for a new coach.

If John had a wiley old vet personel guy to bounce ideas off like his dad or the senior Goodman I think he'd be in a better starting postion as VP. Not going to happen so let's hope Xanders is the real deal

spdirty
01-10-2011, 11:29 AM
Who knew Shanny was the glue that held this disfunctional organization together? Through all his absurd draft picks, free agent signings, and meglomania he kept the pride and prestige of the Broncos lofty among NFL standards. We were never the butt of jokes. But we are now.

The Broncos were always a threat because we had the Mastermind. When Shanahan left, everyone agreed it was time to leave because he had grown stale. Too many 8-8 seasons. Too many bad defenses. But, ****, we obviously needed a guy like. One guy, for better or worse, who made it work with an aloof owner, no front office. At least he was a freaking "football guy."

We are directionless now. Seriously. We all love Elway, but in no way is he qualified to be leading an organization. He's not a personel guy, he has no previous NFL front office experience. We essentially hired a guy off the street to do this. Six months ago, Elway was getting hammered with his boy at ASU, now he is "the brains" behind the front office. The only single qualification Elway has is that he threw a damn good football.

This is goofy. Joe Ellis was a marketing guy, but then he became head of the organization when Shanny left and he hired Josh Mcdaniels. Didn't end well, right? Well, thats what the **** you get when you hire a marketing guy to run your professional football team. Then on top of that, we had a GM in name, but with no power.

Oh well, this is our team. Go Broncos! If these dyfunctional clowns can run this team, there is hope for all of us to be Presidents and GMs of teams one day. What they got that we don't have?

How about you show some respect when talking about the Duke. Denver the city would probably be worse than Detroit the city if it weren't for him.

Jason in LA
01-10-2011, 11:39 AM
I don't get why people say that Elway isn't qualified to run an NFL team. He's been in football his entire life. I believe he has a business degree from Stanford. Made like $100+ million off of a car dealership business. Ran an arena league team. So, he may not have the experience of being a chief of football operations of an NFL team, but that's true for anybody who is in that role for the first time. Anybody who goes after that position for the first time is judged on past experience, which does not include experience in that role. Based on Elway's experience in other positions with other companies, how could anybody say that he's not qualified?

TonyR
01-10-2011, 11:46 AM
I don't get why people say that Elway isn't qualified to run an NFL team.

I think the major argument is that most of the people in such roles work their way up the ranks to that position rather than just walking in the door and getting because of who they are. Elway may do a great job but I think it's fair for people to be concerned that he doesn't have the experience and resume for it.

Jason in LA
01-10-2011, 12:07 PM
I think the major argument is that most of the people in such roles work their way up the ranks to that position rather than just walking in the door and getting because of who they are. Elway may do a great job but I think it's fair for people to be concerned that he doesn't have the experience and resume for it.

Okay, I can see that point. Elway did not work his way up through the NFL ranks, but does that mean that based on his past experience that he is not qualified for this position? I could see it being an issue if Elway did not have a business degree, if he did not have any experience running a business or a football operation, and if the only experience that he had was being a HOF QB. But that's not the case.

So based on his past non NFL experience, how is he not at least qualified to get the position? That doesn't mean that there is no way the guy could fail, but I'd say that at minimum he's qualified.

BroncoInferno
01-10-2011, 12:14 PM
Okay, I can see that point. Elway did not work his way up through the NFL ranks, but does that mean that based on his past experience that he is not qualified for this position? I could see it being an issue if Elway did not have a business degree, if he did not have any experience running a business or a football operation, and if the only experience that he had was being a HOF QB. But that's not the case.

So based on his past non NFL experience, how is he not at least qualified to get the position? That doesn't mean that there is no way the guy could fail, but I'd say that at minimum he's qualified.

To me, it all depends on what Elway's role on the player personnel side is going to be. I think he's more than qualified to be an Ellis type overseeing the business operations, but he's been given final say on all personnel matters. He has absolutely zero experience as a player evaluator. If he is going to let Xanders run the show from a personnel perspective, then I'll feel a little better about the arrangement. I'd have felt MUCH better if Elway had fired or reassigned Xanders and brought in a proven personnel guy like DeCosta, but at least Xanders does have player personnel experience. If it turns out that John plans to be the point man on free agency and the draft a la Matt Millen, then we all have reason to be very worried. He's DEFINITELY not qualified for that.

Jason in LA
01-10-2011, 12:27 PM
I didn't follow Elway's arena football team. What was his role with that organization in terms of running the business and player personnel, and did he do a good job?

Kaylore
01-10-2011, 12:45 PM
I didn't follow Elway's arena football team. What was his role with that organization in terms of running the business and player personnel, and did he do a good job?

He did. He was very hands off and let the personnel guys he hired make the calls. These fears he's going to ignore everyone and draft who he wants are contrary to his body of work.


The one thing is the team folded due to low revenue, but Elway won't be working that side of it, so we should be fine, and that has more to do with this being a pro-football town and marketing than how he handled the personnel department.

Archer81
01-10-2011, 12:57 PM
I didn't follow Elway's arena football team. What was his role with that organization in terms of running the business and player personnel, and did he do a good job?


Colorado Crush won a title their first year of existence. I'm not saying that was all Elway, but still pretty impressive.

:Broncos:

colonelbeef
01-10-2011, 01:16 PM
The truth hurts sometimes.

Losing Shanahan, particularly off of the 06 and 08 drafts, was a mistake.

TonyR
01-10-2011, 01:29 PM
And Jim Goodman is still unemployed.

jhns
01-10-2011, 01:33 PM
And Jim Goodman is still unemployed.

Was he the older one? Do either of the Goodmans have a job? I say we bring them in!

Kaylore
01-10-2011, 01:37 PM
And Jim Goodman is still unemployed.

He and Sundquist should hang out together. Remember that "article" that the niners were interested in Sundquist? :~ohyah!:

jhns
01-10-2011, 01:41 PM
Was he the older one?

I can't edit but that should be "Is he the older one." The past tense doesn't make sense.

TonyR
01-10-2011, 01:43 PM
Was he the older one? Do either of the Goodmans have a job? I say we bring them in!

Yes. The son's name is Jeff.

OrangenBlueOhio
01-10-2011, 02:52 PM
Did you really start this thread and intend to defend it??? Did you forget how we did under Shanny after Elway retired? Whatever glue Shanny had holding us together was of the band aid adhesive type that quickly comes undone.

I have to repectfully diasagree with everyone who adhere's to the "it was time for him to go" line. We win back to back superbowls with the guy, and everybody expects to happen every year.

Yeah he did it with Elway, but guess what Elway couldn't do it without him either. Jeff fisher serves up medicore for 17 years, never wins a superbowl and he's supposed to be god's gift to football. I don't get it.

Shanahan had us in contention every year. Owners need to reign in thier itchy trigger fingers and keep guys around longer. A new coach every few years doesn't work for anybody. Look at Wierd Al. Tom Cable gave them thier best record in years, and cereal for brains turns around and fires him. Long live Al Davis. :~ohyah!:

extralife
01-10-2011, 02:54 PM
Don't let hacks like Mike Florio and Peter King feed your head with this non-sense.

have faith in the team John Elway loves this team and hes going to do everything he can to move us in the right direction, just gotta be patient its not going to be a one or two year turn around most likely but hey you never know.

I love the Denver Broncos too, doesn't qualify me to be the ****ing GM.

Tombstone RJ
01-10-2011, 04:55 PM
Who knew Shanny was the glue that held this disfunctional organization together? Through all his absurd draft picks, free agent signings, and meglomania he kept the pride and prestige of the Broncos lofty among NFL standards. We were never the butt of jokes. But we are now.

The Broncos were always a threat because we had the Mastermind. When Shanahan left, everyone agreed it was time to leave because he had grown stale. Too many 8-8 seasons. Too many bad defenses. But, ****, we obviously needed a guy like. One guy, for better or worse, who made it work with an aloof owner, no front office. At least he was a freaking "football guy."

We are directionless now. Seriously. We all love Elway, but in no way is he qualified to be leading an organization. He's not a personel guy, he has no previous NFL front office experience. We essentially hired a guy off the street to do this. Six months ago, Elway was getting hammered with his boy at ASU, now he is "the brains" behind the front office. The only single qualification Elway has is that he threw a damn good football.

This is goofy. Joe Ellis was a marketing guy, but then he became head of the organization when Shanny left and he hired Josh Mcdaniels. Didn't end well, right? Well, thats what the **** you get when you hire a marketing guy to run your professional football team. Then on top of that, we had a GM in name, but with no power.

Oh well, this is our team. Go Broncos! If these dyfunctional clowns can run this team, there is hope for all of us to be Presidents and GMs of teams one day. What they got that we don't have?

I think if Pat Bowlen was in good health, switching to a new coach would not be much of a problem. However, with Pat's poor health and Ellis's lack of experience running true football operations, this franchise needed to restructure and it has.

baja
01-10-2011, 05:19 PM
What's all this unqualified stuff?

Elway has been around football all his life you don't think he can spot a football player when he sees one.

There's a ton of smart guys around the top of the NFL FOs but the wise one's are the ones that recognize their limitations and seek counsel like he did with the head hunters he called in for the coach search.

Elway proved over and over he could lead men and coax the best out of them.

Yet he is unqualified. Right!

Atwater His Ass
01-10-2011, 07:47 PM
I have to repectfully diasagree with everyone who adhere's to the "it was time for him to go" line. We win back to back superbowls with the guy, and everybody expects to happen every year.

Yeah he did it with Elway, but guess what Elway couldn't do it without him either. Jeff fisher serves up medicore for 17 years, never wins a superbowl and he's supposed to be god's gift to football. I don't get it.

Shanahan had us in contention every year. Owners need to reign in thier itchy trigger fingers and keep guys around longer. A new coach every few years doesn't work for anybody. Look at Wierd Al. Tom Cable gave them thier best record in years, and cereal for brains turns around and fires him. Long live Al Davis. :~ohyah!:

I've never understood what everyone thinks is so great about Fischer. He's never accomplished jack squat.

gunns
01-10-2011, 08:04 PM
Terrible comparison. The only thing similar about Newsome and Elway is that they are outstanding former players.

Newsome immediately went from a playing career to a job as an assignment scout, and then worked his way up an organization based upon his performance to get to his current position.

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/People/Staff/Player_Personnel/Ozzie_Newsome.aspx

Matt Millen is a better comparison of someone that has no experience being given control of an organization. I am not saying Elway is going to be that bad, but his career path matches Millen much better than Newsome.

While I will agree Newsome had more experienced and learned more before taking the job, Elway does have the advantage over Millen of being a Bronco and wanting the best for them. Hopefully, his learning the job doesn't come with multiple calamities.

bowtown
01-10-2011, 08:06 PM
I've never understood what everyone thinks is so great about Fischer. He's never accomplished jack squat.

Most overrated coach in football.

Dedhed
01-10-2011, 08:08 PM
I've never understood what everyone thinks is so great about Fischer. He's never accomplished jack squat.
But he brings stability, and a warm fuzzy feeling because most people prefer mediocrity to the unknown.

AmericanBroncFan
01-10-2011, 08:08 PM
The day Shanahan decided to bench Brister for Griese, this franchise turned to crap. When he traded Portis for Chump it made it worse.

Dedhed
01-10-2011, 08:12 PM
Shanahan had us in contention every year.
Is that really your perception of things? You know you have to make the playoffs to be in contention, right?

Dedhed
01-10-2011, 08:13 PM
The day Shanahan decided to bench Brister for Griese, this franchise turned to crap. When he traded Portis for Chump it made it worse.
Wow. Good take.

/sarcasm

broncocalijohn
01-11-2011, 12:35 AM
The day Shanahan decided to bench Brister for Griese, this franchise turned to crap. When he traded Portis for Chump it made it worse.

For Chump? Are you ****ing kidding us? Really? Asshat! Or is it Jackwagon? Whatever you choose, you are a moron. We never slipped much when we lost Portis.

cutthemdown
01-11-2011, 12:41 AM
I have some of these same worries with the Broncos front office. I love Elway but would feel better had his first move been firing Xanders. By keeping Xanders it makes me feel Elway wants a weak GM so he can be a lot more then just VP of Broncos football.

Time will tell. We will just have to wait and see what kind of team they build. I think with the labor unrest broncos are behind the 8ball. They may have a work stoppage where the new coach cant start coaching until they get it resolved.

Elway has his work cut out for him. All we can do is sit back and watch at this point.

Odysseus
01-11-2011, 12:55 AM
I really enjoyed your post. Rep. :thumbsup:

The ideal situation would have been Mike remaining as HC but bringing in a great GM, although having Shanny stay on as HC and GM would still be significantly better than what we have now. While flawed as an administrator and judge of talent, he worked hard to improve in that area and two of his final three drafts were absolutely excellent. I do miss Mike and his ability to will us to at least a halfway decent record despite his flaws in the personnel aspect was very valuable trait. It was definitely something we took for granted. We learned the hard way that change is not always good.

At this point, the team would be well served to return to Shanny's proven and balanced offensive system so that we can take advantage of Tebow's non conventional talents and manufacture a strong run game even without equivalent talent. If we can pair that with a good, solid defensive mind and a commitment to getting some more defensive talent, we'll be in good shape. For all his flaws, Shanny was an amazing coach for this team. It's unfortunate we had to learn this in a painful way.

It was time for a change but Josh was not it. I don't know what we could have done with Shanny staying here. I think you have a valid point in hind sight. I was surprised that we cut so suddenly for such an unproven product.

Kaylore
01-11-2011, 07:09 AM
I disagree. It became extremely transparent that he had delegated responsibility in those later years.

How many pressers did he have pre/post drafts praising the work of the Goodman's and giving them full credit for their draft work (yes, I fully agree that we still whiffed on Moss, though I think that may be more indicative of work ethic than poor talent), not to mention other indicators like Bates' calling the plays on offense.

I think OP is completely right and Denver shot themselves in the foot.

I think managing 4-12 against the two weakest divisions in football (NFCW and AFCS) along with playing the next weakest division in football TWICE (our own AFCW) is completely evidence to that point.

I know you do. I know you, Taco, colonelbeef, BPC and SoCal will never get over him being fired and will pine for him probably forever. Even SoCal is willing to take the closest facsimile of the guy he can in Dennison, even though he's horribly unqualified, just so the team "feels" somewhat Shanahanish.

If his drafts were really so awesome, then it's even more of an indictment on his coaching as we got no better during those years (and when strength of schedule is considered, we got worse). He also never showed he had any idea what to look for in a defensive player in the draft. And even if you feel his drafting was better, his free agency picks were still horrible and continued to be. When you throw in his propensity to hire staff that were friends and relatives first and qualified coaches last, it is clear the guy had no idea how to put a complete team together.

Shanahan needed to go.

TonyR
01-11-2011, 07:54 AM
...willing to take the closes facsimile of the guy he can in Dennison, even though he's horribly unqualified, just so the team "feels" somewhat Shanahanish.

I'm really worried that the familiarity factor with Dennison will be weighed too heavily. Hopefully the exec headhunter will help in this area since he shouldn't have that bias.

TheReverend
01-11-2011, 09:23 AM
I know you do. I know you, Taco, colonelbeef, BPC and SoCal will never get over him being fired and will pine for him probably forever. Even SoCal is willing to take the closest facsimile of the guy he can in Dennison, even though he's horribly unqualified, just so the team "feels" somewhat Shanahanish.

If his drafts were really so awesome, then it's even more of an indictment on his coaching as we got no better during those years (and when strength of schedule is considered, we got worse). He also never showed he had any idea what to look for in a defensive player in the draft. And even if you feel his drafting was better, his free agency picks were still horrible and continued to be. When you throw in his propensity to hire staff that were friends and relatives first and qualified coaches last, it is clear the guy had no idea how to put a complete team together.

Shanahan needed to go.

I have no desire to get into this again. At the time of the firing I laid out a very lengthy and extensive post explaining why I thought it was a bad decision. Absolutely NONE of my opinions on that have changed, and the current state of the franchise only reinforces those opinions.

http://orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75950

As always, anyone is welcome to try and argue any single one of those points.

BroncoMan4ever
01-11-2011, 09:59 AM
i hate to say but the thread title is wrong. it wasn't when Shanahan left that the franchise started to head down the drain. it was when Mike drafted a QB after a 13-3 season with an AFCCG appearance. that game pointed out a Defensive playmaker or 2 and a solid RB were what we needed to get over the top and back amongst the elites. Armed with 2-1st rounders the following season the team is blown up in favor of a new QB. after that the team began falling apart.

misturanderson
01-11-2011, 10:07 AM
i hate to say but the thread title is wrong. it wasn't when Shanahan left that the franchise started to head down the drain. it was when Mike drafted a QB after a 13-3 season with an AFCCG appearance. that game pointed out a Defensive playmaker or 2 and a solid RB were what we needed to get over the top and back amongst the elites. Armed with 2-1st rounders the following season the team is blown up in favor of a new QB. after that the team began falling apart.

What makes it even worse was that when he traded up for Cutler, Ngata was still on the board at the position we had (and still have) the greatest need for at the time. Still pisses me off.

Very similar to our trade up for Tebow this year with Dan Williams still on the board (though with a much lower 1st rounder). Hopefully Tebow proves to be more worth it than Cutler has.

BroncoMan4ever
01-11-2011, 10:11 AM
What makes it even worse was that when he traded up for Cutler, Ngata was still on the board at the position we had (and still have) the greatest need for at the time. Still pisses me off.

Very similar to our trade up for Tebow this year with Dan Williams still on the board (though with a much lower 1st rounder). Hopefully Tebow proves to be more worth it than Cutler has.

i have more faith in Tebow than i did in Cutler, even though in terms of QB ability Cutler was then head and shoulders above what Tebow is now.

Tebow has the attitude, desire, work ethic and passion for the game to make himself as good as he can become, whereas Cutler still seems to be the guy who will live and die on the strength of his arm and not bother to work on improving as a player.

misturanderson
01-11-2011, 10:16 AM
i have more faith in Tebow than i did in Cutler, even though in terms of QB ability Cutler was then head and shoulders above what Tebow is now.

Tebow has the attitude, desire, work ethic and passion for the game to make himself as good as he can become, whereas Cutler still seems to be the guy who will live and die on the strength of his arm and not bother to work on improving as a player.

I don't disagree. I'm far more confident that Tebow will prove to be more valuable than Williams than I am that Cutler will prove to be more valuable than Ngata at this point (an easy thing to say this far into their respective careers).

Tombstone RJ
01-11-2011, 11:55 AM
I have no desire to get into this again. At the time of the firing I laid out a very lengthy and extensive post explaining why I thought it was a bad decision. Absolutely NONE of my opinions on that have changed, and the current state of the franchise only reinforces those opinions.

http://orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75950

As always, anyone is welcome to try and argue any single one of those points.

I remember that thread. See post #6 which answers your OP in one, maybe two sentences.

Tombstone RJ
01-11-2011, 11:58 AM
Those who want to cling to Shanny's skirt have to remember that he sucked badly is some fundamental areas. Defense is his first failure and then subordinate things like lousy drafts and FAs acquisitions can be added. Shanny the GM got Shanny the coach fired, and rightly so.

TheReverend
01-11-2011, 01:20 PM
I remember that thread. See post #6 which answers your OP in one, maybe two sentences.

Your response was essentially "TLDR, was time 4 chng"

That in no way, shape or form rebut ANY of the points made...

TheReverend
01-11-2011, 01:22 PM
Those who want to cling to Shanny's skirt have to remember that he sucked badly is some fundamental areas. Defense is his first failure and then subordinate things like lousy drafts and FAs acquisitions can be added. Shanny the GM got Shanny the coach fired, and rightly so.

Myth.

Shanahan's average defensive ranking is 11. That's very, very good... especially over a 14 year span.

For comparisons sake:

Here's the best defensive head coaches in the NFL (our modern HoF candidates) and their career defensive rankings. Bill Belicek (NE only) comes in at a respectable 14. Tony Dungy (IND only) ties Bill at a solid 14 (edging him with decimals). Jeff Fischer (over that SAME 14 year span) is on the verge of being below average with 16 (might even be below average if you weight the years he coached pre-expansion). For those that might think this comparison is bull **** or skewed: Bill Cowher, on the other hand, proved to be dynamite with a career average of SIX! Also important to note, his best seasons WERE with Dick Lebeau as well, but still strong even without him, and hiring a HoF DC shouldn't be held against him (Disclaimer: I don't approve of a Bill Cowher signing)

Tombstone RJ
01-11-2011, 01:28 PM
Myth.

Shanahan's average defensive ranking is 11. That's very, very good... especially over a 14 year span.

For comparisons sake:

Here's the best defensive head coaches in the NFL (our modern HoF candidates) and their career defensive rankings. Bill Belicek (NE only) comes in at a respectable 14. Tony Dungy (IND only) ties Bill at a solid 14 (edging him with decimals). Jeff Fischer (over that SAME 14 year span) is on the verge of being below average with 16 (might even be below average if you weight the years he coached pre-expansion). For those that might think this comparison is bull **** or skewed: Bill Cowher, on the other hand, proved to be dynamite with a career average of SIX! Also important to note, his best seasons WERE with Dick Lebeau as well, but still strong even without him, and hiring a HoF DC shouldn't be held against him (Disclaimer: I don't approve of a Bill Cowher signing)

It's strange that this greatness did not translate into more playoff wins after Elway. Fact is, I've never disputed Shanny's coaching ability. I've maintained that Shanny's GM capacity got him fired.

You can do all the research you want but your not gonna convince me that change wasn't needed.

OABB
01-11-2011, 01:28 PM
Your response was essentially "TLDR, was time 4 chng"

That in no way, shape or form rebut ANY of the points made...

I didn't see any reference to Shanahan's poor drafting before 07. You really just mentioned the goodman years. I loved Shanahan, but as time has passed, it is almost stupid to skirt over this.

That is why he is gone. That and only that. Otherwise he was just about perfect. If he had drafted better from 98 to 07, we would have been a dynasty like no other imo.


edit: that and blowing a three game lead with three games to go, getting assraped(again) by the Chargers.

Tombstone RJ
01-11-2011, 01:30 PM
Your response was essentially "TLDR, was time 4 chng"

That in no way, shape or form rebut ANY of the points made...

That's because you want to prove an opinion. Your opinion. My opinion is that change was needed.

Popps
01-11-2011, 01:30 PM
Shanahan's early defenses were phenomenal. In fact, it confuses me to this day how he could have had such an eye for talent early on... and then almost completely lost it.

After the SB years, we had a few nice defensive players and a couple of seasons where we looked statistically respectable, but those defenses always caved in big games.

As for him being let go, I can't imagine we'd even need to discuss it at this point. Just pop in a tape of the Chargers game with the division on the line... and you'll see all the evidence you need.

Shanahan's idea to fix the defense that year was Boss Bailey and Niko Koutouvides.

His first year in Washington was a disaster.


I love the guy for what he did for us, but anyone who didn't see it was time to move on just simply wasn't looking at the evidence. One playoff win in 10 years, and a team on the verge of a SB dismantled... and turned into a defenseless, mediocre squad.

He had a long stay... he was a great Bronco, and it was time to move on.

TheReverend
01-11-2011, 01:33 PM
I didn't see any reference to Shanahan's poor drafting before 07. You really just mentioned the goodman years. I loved Shanahan, but as time has passed, it is almost stupid to skirt over this.

That is why he is gone. That and only that. Otherwise he was just about perfect. If he had drafted better from 98 to 07, we would have been a dynasty like no other imo.


edit: that and blowing a three game lead with three games to go, getting assraped(again) by the Chargers.

Because there's nothing to defend? It obviously was a large blemish on his career here. Because I like him and think he had definitely righted the ship, yet again, doesn't mean I've agreed with every single one of his decisions.

OABB
01-11-2011, 01:35 PM
Because there's nothing to defend? It obviously was a large blemish on his career here. Because I like him and think he had definitely righted the ship, yet again, doesn't mean I've agreed with every single one of his decisions.

My point is that that is why he should have been fired.

TheReverend
01-11-2011, 01:36 PM
Shanahan's early defenses were phenomenal. In fact, it confuses me to this day how he could have had such an eye for talent early on... and then almost completely lost it.

After the SB years, we had a few nice defensive players and a couple of seasons where we looked statistically respectable, but those defenses always caved in big games.

As for him being let go, I can't imagine we'd even need to discuss it at this point. Just pop in a tape of the Chargers game with the division on the line... and you'll see all the evidence you need.

Shanahan's idea to fix the defense that year was Boss Bailey and Niko Koutouvides.

His first year in Washington was a disaster.


I love the guy for what he did for us, but anyone who didn't see it was time to move on just simply wasn't looking at the evidence. One playoff win in 10 years, and a team on the verge of a SB dismantled... and turned into a defenseless, mediocre squad.

He had a long stay... he was a great Bronco, and it was time to move on.

But that's quite frankly not the case... the defense was extremely snake bitten. Some of our MOST TALENTED defensive players of the decade were lost for randomly terrible reasons.

In order of importance to the defense (in my opinion):

1. Al Wilson's spine
2. Trevor Pryce's spine
3. Mobley's spine
4. Darrent Williams death

Those are 4 difference makers... just lost

TheReverend
01-11-2011, 01:36 PM
My point is that that is why he should have been fired.

And I'm okay with that.

We're much better off without him.





























Hilarious!

Tombstone RJ
01-11-2011, 01:40 PM
But that's quite frankly not the case... the defense was extremely snake bitten. Some of our MOST TALENTED defensive players of the decade were lost for randomly terrible reasons.

In order of importance to the defense (in my opinion):

1. Al Wilson's spine
2. Trevor Pryce's spine
3. Mobley's spine
4. Darrent Williams death

Those are 4 difference makers... just lost

I don't recall Pryce having neck/spine problems. I thought he had some back issues that kept him from playing. Anyway, Shanny the GM released him.

OABB
01-11-2011, 01:42 PM
And I'm okay with that.

We're much better off without him.





























Hilarious!

I agree that we took a HUGE step backward and that all things considered, 8-8 would be better than 4-12. But without Shanny giving up gm abilities, it's hard NOT to argue that 8-8 would be our record year in and year out.

and let's not forget Slowick. Wanting to keep slowick still makes my stomach knot up thinking about it. I was, and still am, a huge Shanny man, but that killed it for me. I mean, absolutely killed it for me. Also, on top of his poor drafts, he never stuck with the same defensive scheme, or coordinator long enough to improve.

This is essentially why mcd could walk into dove valley and get fellated for just mentioning that he would keep the same defensive system in place and draft accordingly. I imagine Ellis and bowlen stopped listening after that and drew up a contract on a napkin right then.

Rohirrim
01-11-2011, 01:46 PM
Shanahan's last three games here, combined with the Raider ass kicking, sealed his doom. Then, the Slowik fiasco on top of it? I don't see how anybody can question the decision.

jhns
01-11-2011, 01:52 PM
His first year in Washington was a disaster.


It is pretty funny when the McDaniels backers say this stuff. They did nothing but talk up the coach that never once improved his team. They then call it a failure to improve a team in a single offseason, while implementing two new systems.

Haters gonna hate.

As for the "Shanahan did nothing in 10 years" crowd. I would call multiple playoff appearances and an AFCCG doing something. I would say being in the top 5 in wins for any franchise over that period, doing something. I would say being more successful in the 10 years after losing your HOF QB than most any other franchise in history, doing something.

Again, haters gonna hate.

Popps
01-11-2011, 01:52 PM
But that's quite frankly not the case... the defense was extremely snake bitten. Some of our MOST TALENTED defensive players of the decade were lost for randomly terrible reasons.

In order of importance to the defense (in my opinion):

1. Al Wilson's spine
2. Trevor Pryce's spine
3. Mobley's spine
4. Darrent Williams death

Those are 4 difference makers... just lost

1. Wilson - Career ended somewhat early, but we did get quality years out of him. Never put the pass rushers in front of him to make his unit dominant.

2. Trevor Pryce - Shanahan let him go early. He may have been past his prime but he would have outplayed his replacements.

3. Mobley - Got good production out of him while he was here, but he wouldn't have been a factor in the last several years of Shanahan's career, where his defenses were the worst.

4. D. Williams - Talented player, fan-favorite. Difference-maker? Probably not. He was brutalized by Reggie Wayne and had trouble with bigger WRs, which is most WR's these days. Great kid, nice player... but put him back on our defense the last few years and we are still awful.


Shanahan simply went a decade ignoring the pass-rush and instead taking bizarre WRs, CBs and other head scratchers like Pierce.

Again, Mark Schlereth said it best... when you draft poorly for 10 years, you start chasing fixes in FA, and we did an equally poor job of that, leading to the mess we saw on the field the last few years of his tenure.

The only way we would have been better off retaining Shanahan would have been if the entire structure changed from the top on down... and that simply wasn't going to happen on his watch.

To say that we're worse off because we were 12-20 after he left isn't realistic, either. Shanahan may have very well been 12-20 himself these past two years.

Rebuilding seasons generally don't yield great records... and any coach that followed up the mess we had in 2008 was in for some rebuilding seasons.

The notion of being "better off without him" is too subjective to quantify. But for my money, what's going on in Washington right now tells me all I need to know.

It was time to move on. Such is football... such is life.

baja
01-11-2011, 01:53 PM
Shanahan's early defenses were phenomenal. In fact, it confuses me to this day how he could have had such an eye for talent early on... and then almost completely lost it.

After the SB years, we had a few nice defensive players and a couple of seasons where we looked statistically respectable, but those defenses always caved in big games.

As for him being let go, I can't imagine we'd even need to discuss it at this point. Just pop in a tape of the Chargers game with the division on the line... and you'll see all the evidence you need.

Shanahan's idea to fix the defense that year was Boss Bailey and Niko Koutouvides.

His first year in Washington was a disaster.


I love the guy for what he did for us, but anyone who didn't see it was time to move on just simply wasn't looking at the evidence. One playoff win in 10 years, and a team on the verge of a SB dismantled... and turned into a defenseless, mediocre squad.

He had a long stay... he was a great Bronco, and it was time to move on.

Those defenses looked good because they were almost always given a 14 point lead early in the game and could play one dimensional D the rest of the game.

TheReverend
01-11-2011, 01:53 PM
I agree that we took a HUGE step backward and that all things considered, 8-8 would be better than 4-12. But without Shanny giving up gm abilities, it's hard NOT to argue that 8-8 would be our record year in and year out.

Actually, it's extremely easy to argue that considering he averaged 10 wins per year in Denver.

and let's not forget Slowick. Wanting to keep slowick still makes my stomach knot up thinking about it. I was, and still am, a huge Shanny man, but that killed it for me. I mean, absolutely killed it for me. Also, on top of his poor drafts, he never stuck with the same defensive scheme, or coordinator long enough to improve.

The irony made me giggle.

bendog
01-11-2011, 01:57 PM
Shanahan's last three games here, combined with the Raider ass kicking, sealed his doom. Then, the Slowik fiasco on top of it? I don't see how anybody can question the decision.

The collapse didn't really bother me because of the running backs going down. It was similar to the Saints this year. They did well to just make the playoffs. However in retrospect, Bowlen shouldn't have gottne in his face after being so passive. Telling him there had to be measurable improvement on defense and some kind of committment to a scheme, or there would be changes would have been a better approach. It was the first of a series of knee jerk bad decisions. And that's why I find the angst on the board over not having a new HC lined up this week to be sort of funny.

But the premise that the organization went down the drain when shanny was hired is just wrong. There was no organization. That was the problem.

Rohirrim
01-11-2011, 02:01 PM
Those defenses looked good because they were almost always given a 14 point lead early in the game and could play one dimensional D the rest of the game.

The Broncos averaged 30 points a game back then.

OABB
01-11-2011, 02:06 PM
Actually, it's extremely easy to argue that considering he averaged 10 wins per year in Denver.

o.k. 10-6 with an embarrassing, nationally covered peyton manning rape-a-thon playoff loss. Is that better?

bendog
01-11-2011, 02:10 PM
o.k. 10-6 with an embarrassing, nationally covered peyton manning rape-a-thon playoff loss. Is that better?

It was just awful. I hated those ten wins seasons. I made me pine for Josh and 3 wins. Pine I tell you.

OABB
01-11-2011, 02:13 PM
The irony made me giggle.

Slowick was the one guy who should have been scapegoated and fired. Rhodes, coyer, bates, robinson, etc. had moderate success. HOwever, with shanny drafting the likes of middlebrooks, paul toviesi(or whatever the hell his name was) pierce and the like they wouldn't of had a shot anyways.

SLowick at least had champ(who shanny traded for because he couldn't draft a db for ****) and lynch(again a shanny fa, because, as I have said, HE COULD NOT DRAFT) in the secondary.

baja
01-11-2011, 02:13 PM
It was just awful. I hated those ten wins seasons. I made me pine for Josh and 3 wins. Pine I tell you.

nobody had a problem when we were winning 10 games. Hope abounded.

OABB
01-11-2011, 02:15 PM
It was just awful. I hated those ten wins seasons. I made me pine for Josh and 3 wins. Pine I tell you.

I loved them. I just wish we didn't have to play anyone other than the pats in the playoffs.

baltimore-insert penis into anus.

Manning- just clean up when you are done.

Steelers- Big ben should have been arrested for rape against us instead.

TheReverend
01-11-2011, 02:26 PM
1. Wilson - Career ended somewhat early, but we did get quality years out of him. Never put the pass rushers in front of him to make his unit dominant.

What? In his eight year career, 2006 was cut short due to injury and 99 was short because it was his rookie year.

2005 - 15th
2004 - 4th
2003 - 4th
2002 - 6th
2001 - 8th
2000 - 24th

I'd say several of those unit's were dominant...

2. Trevor Pryce - Shanahan let him go early. He may have been past his prime but he would have outplayed his replacements.

I fully agree with this, but is it a move you would've felt comfortable making after his injury and the amount of money he wanted? Or would this have been another hindsight "OMG SHANAHAN SUCKS IN FA!!!!!!!!!"?

3. Mobley - Got good production out of him while he was here, but he wouldn't have been a factor in the last several years of Shanahan's career, where his defenses were the worst.

He could've easily made it to AT LEAST 07

4. D. Williams - Talented player, fan-favorite. Difference-maker? Probably not. He was brutalized by Reggie Wayne and had trouble with bigger WRs, which is most WR's these days. Great kid, nice player... but put him back on our defense the last few years and we are still awful.

Are you trying to tell me a rookie didn't match up well against Reggie Wayne and Peyton Manning?! Say it ain't so!

Btw, his 4 picks in 2006 has only been exceeded or matched by a player twice in the 4 seasons since.

bendog
01-11-2011, 02:27 PM
Eventually, it became obvious Shanny was not going to get it done on defense. But the tiny brigade has too much invested in not recalling that Den probably should have won both the balt and pitts game but for a bad break pass and an offensive collapse by Jake. There was reason for opitimism every season. There's been no reason for optimism since Bowlen fired the guy. And this team will struggle to get 8 wins next year.

TheReverend
01-11-2011, 02:27 PM
o.k. 10-6 with an embarrassing, nationally covered peyton manning rape-a-thon playoff loss. Is that better?

Yes. I prefer playoff appearances. I'd rather get raped by probably the GOAT in there than I would Oakland at home.

OABB
01-11-2011, 02:28 PM
Yes. I prefer playoff appearances. I'd rather get raped by probably the GOAT in there than I would Oakland at home.

Me too. but what I really want for Christmas would be to win a few of those playoff games. You know... more than one... in ten years.

That would be awesome.

TheReverend
01-11-2011, 02:43 PM
Me too. but what I really want for Christmas would be to win a few of those playoff games. You know... more than one... in ten years.

That would be awesome.

That was kinda the goal and the reason Cutler was drafted after ending New England's dynasty and handing Brady his first ever playoff loss... no biggie, he's just one Seattle ass kicking away from the NFCCG.

Kaylore
01-11-2011, 02:46 PM
Yes. I prefer playoff appearances. I'd rather get raped by probably the GOAT in there than I would Oakland at home.

We got raped at home by Oakland all the time under Shanahan.

OABB
01-11-2011, 02:52 PM
That was kinda the goal and the reason Cutler was drafted after ending New England's dynasty and handing Brady his first ever playoff loss... no biggie, he's just one Seattle ass kicking away from the NFCCG.

Cutler is lucky to be on a team that can play defense. I think he is very happy to be away from Denver.

broncocalijohn
01-11-2011, 02:53 PM
Actually, it's extremely easy to argue that considering he averaged 10 wins per year in Denver.



The irony made me giggle.

but you didnt mind the other 3 DC that were gone in 3 years? We went backwards in Slowick will one of the canned DC seemed to find a nice gig in Indianapolis.

errand
01-11-2011, 02:55 PM
The glue while he hollowed out the team's skeleton.

We made one bad choice - hiring Mcdaniels. A big one. But not insurmountable.

Hiring McDaniels wasn't as big of a mistake that you claim.....i think it's more accurate to say we hired him too early in his coaching career. Perhaps we should've made him assistant head coach/OC or something. But then again we have the benefit of hindsight.

Having said that he did draft some solid guys like Tebow and Thomas, the rookie OL guys played better as the season went on, he got rid of moody malcontents like Marshall and Cutler...acquired some pretty good veterans in buckhalter, dawkins and Lloyd and if memory serves me right he cleaned up alot of the cap hell Shanahan left us with.

Over his head at age 30 something....fair enough. Completely inept...not so much.

bendog
01-11-2011, 03:05 PM
Hiring McDaniels wasn't as big of a mistake that you claim.....i think it's more accurate to say we hired him too early in his coaching career. Perhaps we should've made him assistant head coach/OC or something. But then again we have the benefit of hindsight.

Having said that he did draft some solid guys like Tebow and Thomas, the rookie OL guys played better as the season went on, he got rid of moody malcontents like Marshall and Cutler...acquired some pretty good veterans in buckhalter, dawkins and Lloyd and if memory serves me right he cleaned up alot of the cap hell Shanahan left us with.

Over his head at age 30 something....fair enough. Completely inept...not so much.

he may be a good HC someday, but those who post that the roster is not worse or (laugh) better are on purple dank.

TheReverend
01-11-2011, 03:21 PM
We got raped at home by Oakland all the time under Shanahan.

Interesting... because the fact is that in 14 years we only lost to Oakland 3 times at home and one of those was by 1 point... Define "all the time"? We clearly have different meanings.

but you didnt mind the other 3 DC that were gone in 3 years? We went backwards in Slowick will one of the canned DC seemed to find a nice gig in Indianapolis.

When did I say that?

Atwater His Ass
01-11-2011, 03:34 PM
Cutler is lucky to be on a team that can play defense. I think he is very happy to be away from Denver.

Who wouldn't be, after the laughing stock this franchise has become over the past 2 years.

Tombstone RJ
01-11-2011, 03:38 PM
That was kinda the goal and the reason Cutler was drafted after ending New England's dynasty and handing Brady his first ever playoff loss... no biggie, he's just one Seattle ass kicking away from the NFCCG.

Draft Cutler was another questionable move by Shanny the GM. Again, the locker room divided with the Cutler pick. Whether you liked Plummer or not, the players won with him and they followed him. Shanny, the egotistical moron, again screwed Shanny the coach by bringing in an rookie prima donna QB. Insert grenade into locker room.

Shanahan learned nothing from the Griese fiasco. NOTHING. In 1999/2000 Shanahan had the choice to start Bristor or Griese and he went with Griese which immediately destroyed the locker room. This was Shanahan's first big mistake. The team did not react well and the next three years were filled with drama and no playoff wins. Griese was eventually kicked out.

Again, Shanny the GM was an idiot. He always thought he was smarter than everyone else. Now this same egomaniac goes to DC and immediately throws a grenade into the locker room by switching from an excellent 4-3 defense to a bad 3-4 defense.

Hey Mike, if it ain't broke why fix it? Oh that's right, because you're smarter than everyone else...

baja
01-11-2011, 03:41 PM
Draft Cutler was another questionable move by Shanny the GM. Again, the locker room divided with the Cutler pick. Whether you liked Plummer or not, the players won with him and they followed him. Shanny, the egotistical moron, again screwed Shanny the coach by bringing in an rookie prima donna QB. Insert grenade into locker room.

Shanahan learned nothing from the Griese fiasco. NOTHING. In 1999/2000 Shanahan had the choice to start Bristor or Griese and he went with Griese which immediately destroyed the locker room. This was Shanahan's first big mistake. The team did not react well and the next three years were filled with drama and no playoff wins. Griese was eventually kicked out.

Again, Shanny the GM was an idiot. He always thought he was smarter than everyone else. Now this same egomaniac goes to DC and immediately throws a grenade into the locker room by switching from an excellent 4-3 defense to a bad 3-4 defense.

Hey Mike, if it ain't broke why fix it? Oh that's right, because you're smarter than everyone else...

Maybe he just didn't want to win games with defense.

BroncoMan4ever
01-11-2011, 03:52 PM
Shanahan's early defenses were phenomenal. In fact, it confuses me to this day how he could have had such an eye for talent early on... and then almost completely lost it.

After the SB years, we had a few nice defensive players and a couple of seasons where we looked statistically respectable, but those defenses always caved in big games.
As for him being let go, I can't imagine we'd even need to discuss it at this point. Just pop in a tape of the Chargers game with the division on the line... and you'll see all the evidence you need.

Shanahan's idea to fix the defense that year was Boss Bailey and Niko Koutouvides.

His first year in Washington was a disaster.


I love the guy for what he did for us, but anyone who didn't see it was time to move on just simply wasn't looking at the evidence. One playoff win in 10 years, and a team on the verge of a SB dismantled... and turned into a defenseless, mediocre squad.

He had a long stay... he was a great Bronco, and it was time to move on.

i have to wonder about how much power he had early on in Denver. did he have all the power he had at the end of his term or were there higher ups who were in some ways overseeing the direction of the team or if it was because he had more seasoned assistants who got into his face occasionally and told him what's what.

i remember listening to an interview with Schlereth in which he talks about Alex Gibbs screaming and yelling at Shanahan to run the ball when he was going into pass happy situations. after guys like Kubes, Gibbs, and others he trusted and could listen to and not feel were demeaning him the staff was full of yes men who didn't have the balls to push their points across.

bendog
01-11-2011, 03:55 PM
Draft Cutler was another questionable move by Shanny the GM. Again, the locker room divided with the Cutler pick. Whether you liked Plummer or not, the players won with him and they followed him. Shanny, the egotistical moron, again screwed Shanny the coach by bringing in an rookie prima donna QB. Insert grenade into locker room.

Shanahan learned nothing from the Griese fiasco. NOTHING. In 1999/2000 Shanahan had the choice to start Bristor or Griese and he went with Griese which immediately destroyed the locker room. This was Shanahan's first big mistake. The team did not react well and the next three years were filled with drama and no playoff wins. Griese was eventually kicked out.

Again, Shanny the GM was an idiot. He always thought he was smarter than everyone else. Now this same egomaniac goes to DC and immediately throws a grenade into the locker room by switching from an excellent 4-3 defense to a bad 3-4 defense.

Hey Mike, if it ain't broke why fix it? Oh that's right, because you're smarter than everyone else...

He went with Griese because Brister showed up not having bothered to prepare with the playbook after being given the keys to the Ferrari. He fired Jake cause Jake coached. You want medocrity, you've seen it for two years. Was it fun for you?

BroncoMan4ever
01-11-2011, 04:03 PM
But that's quite frankly not the case... the defense was extremely snake bitten. Some of our MOST TALENTED defensive players of the decade were lost for randomly terrible reasons.

In order of importance to the defense (in my opinion):

1. Al Wilson's spine
2. Trevor Pryce's spine
3. Mobley's spine
4. Darrent Williams death

Those are 4 difference makers... just lost

yes he drafted guys who became playmakers, but the fact that over the course of his final decade, there were only these 4 on the defensive side. for every one of the 4 you named there was a Deltha O'Neal, Willie Middlebrooks, and Jarvis Moss.(those are only 1st rounders on defense that were busts, could also throw in George Foster, Lelie Marcus Nash if we include offensive 1st round picks)

it was seemingly for every 1 good 1st round draft pick he made there were 2 terrible picks. Shanahan the GM is who got fired, not Shanahan the coach.

Tombstone RJ
01-11-2011, 04:09 PM
He went with Griese because Brister showed up not having bothered to prepare with the playbook after being given the keys to the Ferrari. He fired Jake cause Jake coached. You want medocrity, you've seen it for two years. Was it fun for you?

He went with Griese because Griese was smart but the players liked Bristor and the locker room wanted to give Bristor a chance. Shanny likes smart QBs and Griese is smart. But Bristor was the incumbant QB and it was a veteran team. The players liked Bristor.

The same can be said for Plummer. The player's like Plummer and they played hard for Plummer (Shanny's only other playoff win came with Plummer). The Bristor/Griese and Plummer/Cutler situations are very similar in that Shanahan ignored team chemistry and cohesion by inserting an unpopular and unproven rookie QB (Griese was a rook for all intents and purposes) into veteran teams that already knew how to win.

Neither Griese nor Cutler won a single playoff game. Nada. Zip.

Combine all of the above with the constant switching around of defensive coordinators, the crappy drafts, the lousy FAs and it's amazing that Shanny the coach got 10 wins out of any of those teams.

Gutless Drunk
01-11-2011, 04:17 PM
Cutler is lucky to be on a team that can play defense. I think he is very happy to be away from Denver.

Dude..Tony Scheffler and Peyton Hillis are happy to be away from Denver

misturanderson
01-11-2011, 04:22 PM
We got raped at home by Oakland all the time under Shanahan.

2008 being the most recent example. Always makes me laugh when people say that Shanny would never let us get blown out at home by Oakland when he did, to a much worse raiders team than we got blown out by this past year, in a game that helped keep us out of the playoffs, during his final season here. 2 years ago.

TheReverend
01-11-2011, 05:06 PM
Draft Cutler was another questionable move by Shanny the GM. Again, the locker room divided with the Cutler pick. Whether you liked Plummer or not, the players won with him and they followed him. Shanny, the egotistical moron, again screwed Shanny the coach by bringing in an rookie prima donna QB. Insert grenade into locker room.

Shanahan learned nothing from the Griese fiasco. NOTHING. In 1999/2000 Shanahan had the choice to start Bristor or Griese and he went with Griese which immediately destroyed the locker room. This was Shanahan's first big mistake. The team did not react well and the next three years were filled with drama and no playoff wins. Griese was eventually kicked out.

Again, Shanny the GM was an idiot. He always thought he was smarter than everyone else. Now this same egomaniac goes to DC and immediately throws a grenade into the locker room by switching from an excellent 4-3 defense to a bad 3-4 defense.

Hey Mike, if it ain't broke why fix it? Oh that's right, because you're smarter than everyone else...

So wait...

Is your argument, "I'm tired of mediocrity" or is it "If it ain't broke don't fix it"?

Because the two don't really mesh well.......

TheReverend
01-11-2011, 05:16 PM
yes he drafted guys who became playmakers, but the fact that over the course of his final decade, there were only these 4 on the defensive side. for every one of the 4 you named there was a Deltha O'Neal, Willie Middlebrooks, and Jarvis Moss.(those are only 1st rounders on defense that were busts, could also throw in George Foster, Lelie Marcus Nash if we include offensive 1st round picks)

it was seemingly for every 1 good 1st round draft pick he made there were 2 terrible picks. Shanahan the GM is who got fired, not Shanahan the coach.

Well...

Crowder is a starter and playing well in Tampa.

Elvis was (and should've been, imo) almost DPOY last year.

Darrent was the best corner we've had opposite Champ to date.

Foxworth was living up to his big money contract in Balt before his ACL injury this year.

DJ Williams, well I'm certainly not his biggest fan, but he's certainly played "well"

Nick Eason has been playing well in Pittsburgh.

Sam Brandon used to shut down TE's before his injury.

Reggie Hayward gave us a 10.5 sack season without Pryce.

Ian Gold and Kennoy Kennedy were both solid football players (more so for Gold)

Al Wilson would've been a HoF'er if healthy.

And Montae Raegor had developed extremely well before his auto accident.

--------------------------

That's over his last decade and a lot better than "4"

TheReverend
01-11-2011, 05:17 PM
Naturally those don't include moved like trading for Champ Bailey or signing Lynch on the FA market, etc, but the point should be clear.

OABB
01-11-2011, 06:11 PM
Naturally those don't include moved like trading for Champ Bailey or signing Lynch on the FA market, etc, but the point should be clear.

Yes. It is. Shanahan sucked at drafting and should have been fired. Thanks!

rbackfactory80
01-11-2011, 06:56 PM
Those defenses looked good because they were almost always given a 14 point lead early in the game and could play one dimensional D the rest of the game.

It was great when we had a squad that jumped ahead like that. Unfortunately we found ourselves holding on at the end a little too much.

misturanderson
01-11-2011, 07:04 PM
Yes. It is. Shanahan sucked at drafting and should have been fired. Thanks!

His FA acquisitions were even worse. Especially the last 3 years.

Odysseus
01-12-2011, 01:49 AM
Eventually, it became obvious Shanny was not going to get it done on defense. But the tiny brigade has too much invested in not recalling that Den probably should have won both the balt and pitts game but for a bad break pass and an offensive collapse by Jake. There was reason for opitimism every season. There's been no reason for optimism since Bowlen fired the guy. And this team will struggle to get 8 wins next year.

You don't think players who left Denver and are playing on successful teams are not happy that they are not here? You think they are not talking trash about Denver pretty much league wide?

Elway is painting a nostalgic happy face on what could be a bad situation for a long time unless we get not only do the right things at the right time but have a little luck putting this back on track.

broncocalijohn
01-12-2011, 01:57 AM
Well...

Darrent was the best corner we've had opposite Champ to date.

--------------------------

That's over his last decade and a lot better than "4"

With due condolences with Darrent, he was getting burned just like Cox. In fact, more and more people wanted Paymeh to replace him. He "could" have been a good CB, but he was young and having dificulties as expected.