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View Full Version : Lets say Perry Fewell or John Fox are hired. How do we rebuild into a 4-3 defense?


KevinJames
01-09-2011, 08:14 PM
I thought this would be fun. Fewell or Fox are named the head coach and announce we will be switching to the 4-3 defense.

Heres what I need you to do take this roster below and through a realistic draft using our 4 first picks #2, #36, #46, #67 or realistic FA pick ups to make it better. I did not put Champ on there because his future is not clear, but you can add him if you want to resign him.

Now you must fix it. Heres the roster pre-draft and pre-FA you have to work with good luck lol.

LDE - Robert Ayers (switches inside to DT on passing downs Jason Hunter comes in at LDE)
RDE - Elvis Dumervil
DT - Justin Bannan
DT -Marcus Thomas
ROLB - DJ Williams
MLB - Joe Mays
L0LB - Mario Haggan

FS - Brian Dawkins
SS - Renaldo Hill (or Darcel McBath)
LCB - Andre Goodman
RCB - Perrish Cox
Nickle -Sydquan Thompson


KEY:
ORANGE = Pro Bowl Player, or future pro bowl player
BLUE = Automatic Starter solid vet or young and flashes but should start
GREEN = Serviceable/Borderline Starter, draft a future replacement tho or upgrade via FA
RED = Default Starter might be unproven, might be aging or just doesn't fit great for the scheme, draft or FA a replacement

TonyR
01-09-2011, 08:18 PM
I'd expect Doom to be a DE in a 4-3. And out of Dawkins, Hill and Goodman I bet only one, and maybe 2, are back next season.

Man, our defense is a mess...

Archer81
01-09-2011, 08:19 PM
LE: Ayres
DT: Thomas
DT: Bannan
RE: Vickerson
OLB: Williams
MLB: Mays
OLB: Dumervil
CB: Goodman
CB: Thompson
S: Bailey
S: Dawksins/Peterson from LSU

:Broncos:

bowtown
01-09-2011, 08:20 PM
Elvis would never play LB in a 4-3. He would play LDE. Also, DJ is a natural at Left OLB. I also think Champ will be back but Dawkins will not.

Likwid Kerruj
01-09-2011, 08:22 PM
Dumervil would be going back on the line in a 4-3.

I don't know about Ayers size as a DE though.

Either way, they would still need some bigger guys inside.

KevinJames
01-09-2011, 08:24 PM
I was figuring he would be RDE as well but I was thinking maybe having him at OLB than putting him at DE on passing downs will help be better for his health? We don't want him to wear down on the line all season.

but I see what you guys are saying I fixed the list you have to start with.


Elvis would never play LB in a 4-3. He would play LDE. Also, DJ is a natural at Left OLB. I also think Champ will be back but Dawkins will not.

DJ is probably the best on the weak side and I believe its also his fav. position, he wasn't the best strong side backer IMO.


I don't know about Ayers size as a DE though.

Ayers natural position = DE

bowtown
01-09-2011, 08:26 PM
Either way, they would still need some bigger guys inside.

Not really, Bannan and Thomas are pretty prototypical in size for 4-3 DTs. We would however still need some better guys inside.

SoCalBronco
01-09-2011, 08:27 PM
WDE: Elvis Dumervil
DT: Jamal Williams
DT: Justin Bannan
SDE: Robert Ayers
WLB: DJ Williams
MLB: Joe Mays
SLB: Mario Haggan

Likwid Kerruj
01-09-2011, 08:28 PM
Not really, Bannan and Thomas are pretty prototypical in size for 4-3 DTs. We would however still need some better guys inside.

That was more of the word I was thinking of.

I like those two as rotational/situational guys.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-09-2011, 08:30 PM
WDE: Elvis Dumervil
DT: Jamal Williams
DT: Justin Bannan
SDE: Robert Ayers
WLB: DJ Williams
MLB: Joe Mays
SLB: Mario Haggan

If we go 4-3, my guess is a DT will be signed in FA (provided the CBA is done) and either Bowers or Fairley are drafted. Hell, id even support drafting fairly and trading back into the first for Paea. Those would be two awesome D-tackles to pair with Ayers and Doom.

bowtown
01-09-2011, 08:30 PM
DJ is probably the best on the weak side and I believe its also his fav. position, he wasn't the best strong side backer IMO.



Ayers natural position = DE

Yes, DJ is a natural Will. I have my sides swapped. Even though they don't reall have designated sides.

serious hops
01-09-2011, 08:35 PM
Not really, Bannan and Thomas are pretty prototypical in size for 4-3 DTs. We would however still need some better guys inside.

I don't know if they'll let him reach the market, but Seattle's Brandon Mebane would be an ideal FA acquisition. We have to get someone who can be disruptive from the three-technique if we expect to be successful, and Mebane fits the bill. Hawks LB David Hawthorne would be another smart FA target.

Ryan Kerrigan and Adrian Clayborn might be solid picks at DE.

KevinJames
01-09-2011, 08:36 PM
Another note I think Woodyard will be given a shot as a starter somewhere in the LB core probably weak side if we do switch to a 4-3 since he fits that scheme much better than a 3-4. If that happens it go ROLB Woodyard MLB DJ Williams SLB Joe Mays

I don't know if they'll let him reach the market, but Seattle's Brandon Mebane would be an ideal FA acquisition. We have to get someone who can be disruptive from the three-technique if we expect to be successful, and Mebane fits the bill. Hawks LB David Hawthorne would be another smart FA target.

Ryan Kerrigan and Adrian Clayborn might be solid picks at DE.

I agree with Mebane if we switch to a 4-3 he has to be our top target

Likwid Kerruj
01-09-2011, 08:37 PM
Ayers natural position = DE

I know, but he's more on the smaller side and isn't really known for his quickness.

It'll be interesting to see what happens.

bowtown
01-09-2011, 08:38 PM
I like Meban too and would much rather throw money at him tat at Nnamdi. Anyone know who the best MLB is in the draft?

broncogary
01-09-2011, 08:39 PM
WDE: Elvis Dumervil
DT: Jamal Williams
DT: Justin Bannan
SDE: Robert Ayers
WLB: DJ Williams
MLB: Joe Mays
SLB: Mario Haggan

So we need to replace all three LB's?

KevinJames
01-09-2011, 08:40 PM
I like Meban too and would much rather throw money at him tat at Nnamdi. Anyone know who the best MLB is in the draft?

Don't think hes the best but as an Oregon fan I like Casey Matthews if he comes out, aggressive and has good blood lines :yayaya:

Greg Jones from Mich St is a beast as well

montrose
01-09-2011, 09:04 PM
Don't think Mays fits in a 4-3, that was the wrap on him in college and Philly - a MLB in the 4-3 has to cover a lot of ground. Also don't think there's any reason to keep Jamal around for a 4-3 (and maybe even the 3-4). I do think Ayers is a better fit at 4-3 DE than 3-4 OLB and as crazy as this sounds, I actually LIKE the idea of Elvis - even getting paid all that money - being an exclusive 3rd down pass rusher. 11 of his 17 sacks in 2009 came on 3rd down from his 3-point stance. And of the other 6 sacks, all but 2 (to my recording) also came from his 3-point stance. My point here being that maybe the key to Elvis' production in 2009 wasn't so much that he was rushing the QB from a 2-point stance but that he wasn't being worn down in the run game with teams targeting him in off-tackle runs like we saw in 2008. If the Broncos move to the 4-3 and can find a DE that is stout against the run and not a pushover in passing situations to start opposite Ayers, I could very much see Elvis' flourishing in a 3rd down role through the 1st three quarters and unleashing him fresh on all 3-downs in the 4th. We'll see, because he is getting paid a ton of money.

As per the rest of the unit, Hunter is worthwhile for a look as a reserve DE but not sure how Bannan fits in. If Thomas is let go it'll be four years too late (yes, I know he was drafted in 2007 - I hate that guy). Haggan would be a nice reserve MLB/SLB and I like Woodyard to backup DJ at WLB. If the move was made to the 4-3, the most important positions would be the 3-technique and MLB. Those positions would take top priority, IMO. The secondary doesn't really make a difference to me, and I believe Dawk said the same when he signed here - doesn't change much for those guys.

2KBack
01-09-2011, 09:10 PM
I know, but he's more on the smaller side and isn't really known for his quickness.

It'll be interesting to see what happens.

Smaller side? He's 270+ That's like prototype 4-3 DE

KevinJames
01-09-2011, 09:18 PM
Don't think Mays fits in a 4-3, that was the wrap on him in college and Philly - a MLB in the 4-3 has to cover a lot of ground. Also don't think there's any reason to keep Jamal around for a 4-3 (and maybe even the 3-4). I do think Ayers is a better fit at 4-3 DE than 3-4 OLB and as crazy as this sounds, I actually LIKE the idea of Elvis - even getting paid all that money - being an exclusive 3rd down pass rusher. 11 of his 17 sacks in 2009 came on 3rd down from his 3-point stance. And of the other 6 sacks, all but 2 (to my recording) also came from his 3-point stance. My point here being that maybe the key to Elvis' production in 2009 wasn't so much that he was rushing the QB from a 2-point stance but that he wasn't being worn down in the run game with teams targeting him in off-tackle runs like we saw in 2008. If the Broncos move to the 4-3 and can find a DE that is stout against the run and not a pushover in passing situations to start opposite Ayers, I could very much see Elvis' flourishing in a 3rd down role through the 1st three quarters and unleashing him fresh on all 3-downs in the 4th. We'll see, because he is getting paid a ton of money.

As per the rest of the unit, Hunter is worthwhile for a look as a reserve DE but not sure how Bannan fits in. If Thomas is let go it'll be four years too late (yes, I know he was drafted in 2007 - I hate that guy). Haggan would be a nice reserve MLB/SLB and I like Woodyard to backup DJ at WLB. If the move was made to the 4-3, the most important positions would be the 3-technique and MLB. Those positions would take top priority, IMO. The secondary doesn't really make a difference to me, and I believe Dawk said the same when he signed here - doesn't change much for those guys.

What if Doom played OLB on early downs and on 3rd down and obvious passing downs he moves to DE, we already know he can play outstanding standing up and he can run side to sideline.

We would use him like Chiefs use to use Derrick Thomas

OrangeSe7en
01-09-2011, 09:18 PM
Don't think Mays fits in a 4-3, that was the wrap on him in college and Philly - a MLB in the 4-3 has to cover a lot of ground. Also don't think there's any reason to keep Jamal around for a 4-3 (and maybe even the 3-4). I do think Ayers is a better fit at 4-3 DE than 3-4 OLB and as crazy as this sounds, I actually LIKE the idea of Elvis - even getting paid all that money - being an exclusive 3rd down pass rusher. 11 of his 17 sacks in 2009 came on 3rd down from his 3-point stance. And of the other 6 sacks, all but 2 (to my recording) also came from his 3-point stance. My point here being that maybe the key to Elvis' production in 2009 wasn't so much that he was rushing the QB from a 2-point stance but that he wasn't being worn down in the run game with teams targeting him in off-tackle runs like we saw in 2008. If the Broncos move to the 4-3 and can find a DE that is stout against the run and not a pushover in passing situations to start opposite Ayers, I could very much see Elvis' flourishing in a 3rd down role through the 1st three quarters and unleashing him fresh on all 3-downs in the 4th. We'll see, because he is getting paid a ton of money.

As per the rest of the unit, Hunter is worthwhile for a look as a reserve DE but not sure how Bannan fits in. If Thomas is let go it'll be four years too late (yes, I know he was drafted in 2007 - I hate that guy). Haggan would be a nice reserve MLB/SLB and I like Woodyard to backup DJ at WLB. If the move was made to the 4-3, the most important positions would be the 3-technique and MLB. Those positions would take top priority, IMO. The secondary doesn't really make a difference to me, and I believe Dawk said the same when he signed here - doesn't change much for those guys.

Today shovels, tomorrow rifles. Rembember that!

Premier-Ace55
01-09-2011, 09:25 PM
I think Perry has experience in both 4-3 and 3-4 not to mention a good Head coach should be able to get a d coordinator who can run the system that suits our personell the best.

montrose
01-09-2011, 09:30 PM
What if Doom played OLB on early downs and on 3rd down and obvious passing downs he moves to DE, we already know he can play outstanding standing up and he can run side to sideline.

We would use him like Chiefs use to use Derrick Thomas

That's certainly a thought, but in the 4-3 DJ would be the logical fit at WLB (best 2 years of his career arguably his rookie year and 2008 at that position). The LBers have to be able to cover a lot more ground than in the 3-4. My guess is that if they go 4-3, Doom will be starting at DE - not my choice, but my guess.

razorwire77
01-09-2011, 09:41 PM
WDE: Elvis Dumervil
DT: Potential 1st round draft pick, Jamal Williams
DT: Justin Bannan
SDE: Robert Ayers
WLB: DJ Williams
MLB: potential 2nd round draft pick, Joe Mays
SLB: potential 2nd round draft pick, Mario Haggan

Damn, that's a lot of holes defensively.

CB: Goodman, Cox, Squid
CB: Champ, FA, or 1st rounder
SS: McBath, FA, or potential 2nd or 3rd rounder
FS: ??? FA?, or potential 2nd or 3rd rounder I think Dawkins is done.

Dedhed
01-09-2011, 09:42 PM
ROLB - DJ Williams
MLB - Joe Mays
L0LB - Mario Haggan


Pitiful.

strafen
01-09-2011, 09:45 PM
I sure hope we get some new faces in there. Realigning with the same players we've had is not going to yield different results.
We need to draft at least one impact player that can immediately contribute, and get a good DC that can get the most of what he's got to work with initially...

Premier-Ace55
01-09-2011, 09:46 PM
WDE: Elvis Dumervil
DT: Potential 1st round draft pick, Jamal Williams
DT: Justin Bannan
SDE: Robert Ayers
WLB: DJ Williams
MLB: potential 2nd round draft pick, Joe Mays
SLB: potential 2nd round draft pick, Mario Haggan

Damn, that's a lot of holes defensively.

CB: Goodman, Cox, Squid
CB: Champ, FA, or 1st rounder
SS: McBath, FA, or potential 2nd or 3rd rounder
FS: ??? FA?, or potential 2nd or 3rd rounder I think Dawkins is done.

There really are beacuse I'm not impressed with anybody on that list except Champ and Dumerville but not at that DE position.

OrangeSe7en
01-09-2011, 09:48 PM
2009 2010
Yards 14 7
Rush 14 8
Pass 15 9
Ints 22 14
Sacks 18 5



This is the Giants league rank in the indicated category. You can see substantial improvement in every regard.

bpc
01-09-2011, 11:46 PM
If we're moving to a 4-3 again, we might as well trade Doom and his huge contract to somebody who will make the most of his abilities.

That being said, I'd build front to back. Re-sign Champ, keep him around. Move around in the draft (maybe using Doom as compensation) to pick up Nick Fairley and Adrian Clayborne. Sign Mebane (i've loved the kid coming out of Cal) to play the 1.

LDE - Robert Ayers
1Tech- Mebane
3Tech- Fairley
RDE - Adrian Clayborne

Killericon
01-09-2011, 11:48 PM
Sign Ernie Sims, Draft Fairley.

TonyR
01-10-2011, 06:56 AM
Sign Ernie Sims...

He was terrible for the Eagles against the Pack yesterday.

oubronco
01-10-2011, 07:13 AM
I don't really care if they go with a 4-3 or a 3-4 just as long as they fix this weak ass defense. I'm tired of seeing a defense get pushed all over the place and gashed time after time

It would be nice to see them actually stop a fat man from rolling uphill for a change

Man-Goblin
01-10-2011, 07:19 AM
I don't think they're any closer to building a good 3-4 defense than building a good 4-3.

In fact, Dumervil and Ayers experience dropping into coverage would be invaluable if they hire Fewell with all the fire zone stuff he's probably going to want to run. You're going to need 2 more quality bigger pass rushers that can slide inside when needed to make it successful, tho. Guys like Justin Tuck or a Trevor Price back in the day.

yerner
01-10-2011, 07:24 AM
I can't imagine changing what Doom was doing prior to his injury would be in the best interest of the team.

fontaine
01-10-2011, 07:32 AM
A scheme change isn't going to fix anything.

This year we predominantly went with a 5 man look up front with 3 DL, and two outside backers lining up outside the DE's on a two point stance and they STILL couldn't do their job in funnelling runners inside consistently or generate a steady pass rush.

Moving the same tired old players to WLB/MLB/SLB just gives them more ground to cover, more keys to read and more responsibility for them to screw it up. Haggan/Mays have zero range, zero coverage ability and would get abused beyond legal and ethical limits behind two DEs that can't hold their ground in the run game in Doom/Ayers.

The problem with our front 7 is a complete lack of size/strength/speed outside of Doom/Ayers which has showed up every week in the 2nd half when the DL wear down, the OLBs get ragdolled and DJ ends up looking stupid because he's having to chase ball carriers instead of flowing uphill towards the ball and we end up with a season with more big plays, points, yards etc given up in the last 30 years.

Shifting Doom/Ayers to DE isn't going to give them more functional strength and explosion, they are better left as OLBs.

oubronco
01-10-2011, 08:33 AM
A scheme change isn't going to fix anything.

This year we predominantly went with a 5 man look up front with 3 DL, and two outside backers lining up outside the DE's on a two point stance and they STILL couldn't do their job in funnelling runners inside consistently or generate a steady pass rush.

Moving the same tired old players to WLB/MLB/SLB just gives them more ground to cover, more keys to read and more responsibility for them to screw it up. Haggan/Mays have zero range, zero coverage ability and would get abused beyond legal and ethical limits behind two DEs that can't hold their ground in the run game in Doom/Ayers.

The problem with our front 7 is a complete lack of size/strength/speed outside of Doom/Ayers which has showed up every week in the 2nd half when the DL wear down, the OLBs get ragdolled and DJ ends up looking stupid because he's having to chase ball carriers instead of flowing uphill towards the ball and we end up with a season with more big plays, points, yards etc given up in the last 30 years.

Shifting Doom/Ayers to DE isn't going to give them more functional strength and explosion, they are better left as OLBs.

All too true

Mile High Shack
01-10-2011, 08:35 AM
just because a coordinator liked a 4-3 at one point, doesn't mean, when/if they move, they stick with a 4-3.

Rivera for example, ran a great 4-3 in Chicago, came to SD and ran a great 3-4

c'mon people...let's chill a little

Old Dude
01-10-2011, 08:54 AM
Ditto. Just because a HC has more experience with one scheme or the other doesn't mean he'll insist on running it right from day one.

But, for the sake of argument, if we moved to a 4-3, here's what I see.

1. You almost have to trade Dumervil. He's a pro-bowl caliber OLB in a 3-4, and we're paying him like one, but a role-player in a 4-3. You have get rid of him and you have to get a decent player in return, but "forced" trades like this rarely work in favor of the team who needs it.

2. Hunter would be cut or traded. I think Haggan and Mays would be rendered far less effective. Ayers would be in doubt, because he wasn't drafted as a DE in a 4-3 and so he'd have to start from square one again. I can't see him as anything more than a backup in a 4-3. Jamal Williams is also gone. So is Fields (though he's probably gone anyway.) So is McBean who I can't see playing any position on a 4-3. Not sure where Woodyard would fit in this scheme. Larsen might stick as a backup MLB. Vickerson might stick as a backup DT or DE.

3. That leaves you with maybe three starters. DJ Williams at a LB spot. Bannon and Thomas at DT. Williams is a slightly-above average backer. Bannon is an average DT. Thomas is a slightly below average DT.

Sp you now need two LBs, two DEs and at least three backups, because with a 4-3, you don't even have those.

That means you need to bring in 7 guys (four of whom must be starters) from a combination of the draft, whatever you get out of the (forced) Dumervil trade and free agency.

Good luck with that.

PS - especially since this doesn't even begin to address the issues in the secondary.

Mile High Shack
01-10-2011, 08:55 AM
Ditto. Just because a HC has more experience with one scheme or the other doesn't mean he'll insist on running it right from day one.

But, for the sake of argument, if we moved to a 4-3, here's what I see.

1. You almost have to trade Dumervil. He's a pro-bowl caliber OLB in a 3-4, and we're paying him like one, but a role-player in a 4-3. You have get rid of him and you have to get a decent player in return, but "forced" trades like this rarely work in favor of the team who needs it.

2. Hunter would be cut or traded. I think Haggan and Mays would be rendered far less effective. Ayers would be in doubt, because he wasn't drafted as a DE in a 4-3 and so he'd have to start from square one again. I can't see him as anything more than a backup in a 4-3. Jamal Williams is also gone. So is Fields (though he's probably gone anyway.) So is McBean who I can't see playing any position on a 4-3. Not sure where Woodyard would fit in this scheme. Larsen might stick as a backup MLB. Vickerson might stick as a backup DT or DE.

3. That leaves you with maybe three starters. DJ Williams at a LB spot. Bannon and Thomas at DT. Williams is a slightly-above average backer. Bannon is an average DT. Thomas is a slightly below average DT.

Sp you now need two LBs, two DEs and at least three backups, because with a 4-3, you don't even have those.

That means you need to bring in 7 guys (four of whom must be starters) from a combination of the draft, whatever you get out of the (forced) Dumervil trade and free agency.

Good luck with that.

this is why, any coach that comes in, at least that knows what the hell they are doing, will NOT change our defensive scheme the first year, it might be a gradual process, but no...we aren't going to a 4-3

Dedhed
01-10-2011, 09:01 AM
Alright. I think we can all pretty much agree that Dumervil is our defensive MVP. So let's look at the performance of the defense with him as a starter and see if we can determine whether a 3-4 or a 4-3 is a better way to go.


2009: 3-4 with Elvis:12th in scoring, 7th against the rush, and 3rd against the pass; Dumervil 17 sacks to lead the entire NFL.

2008:4-3 with Elvis:30th in scoring, 27th against the rush, 26th against the pass. Dumervil 5 sacks

2007:4-3 with Elvis: 28th in scoring, 3oth against the rush, 7th against the pass. Dumervil 12.5 sacks.

So with Dumervil in a 4-3 the Broncos were very nearly the worst defensive team in the league. In the 3-4, Dumervil was the most disruptive pass rusher in the league, and the defense was respectable in every category.

This defense should be built around Doom, and it seems like a no brainer to me as to which scheme yields better results.

baja
01-10-2011, 09:07 AM
Alright. I think we can all pretty much agree that Dumervil is our defensive MVP. So let's look at the performance of the defense with him as a starter and see if we can determine whether a 3-4 or a 4-3 is a better way to go.


2009: 3-4 with Elvis:12th in scoring, 7th against the rush, and 3rd against the pass; Dumervil 17 sacks to lead the entire NFL.

2008:4-3 with Elvis:30th in scoring, 27th against the rush, 26th against the pass. Dumervil 5 sacks

2007:4-3 with Elvis: 28th in scoring, 3oth against the rush, 7th against the pass. Dumervil 12.5 sacks.

So with Dumervil in a 4-3 the Broncos were very nearly the worst defensive team in the league. In the 3-4, Dumervil was the most disruptive pass rusher in the league, and the defense was respectable in every category.

This defense should be built around Doom, and it seems like a no brainer to me as to which scheme yields better results.

What a clear indication of the value of a pass rush.

misturanderson
01-10-2011, 09:16 AM
Alright. I think we can all pretty much agree that Dumervil is our defensive MVP. So let's look at the performance of the defense with him as a starter and see if we can determine whether a 3-4 or a 4-3 is a better way to go.


2009: 3-4 with Elvis:12th in scoring, 7th against the rush, and 3rd against the pass; Dumervil 17 sacks to lead the entire NFL.

2008:4-3 with Elvis:30th in scoring, 27th against the rush, 26th against the pass. Dumervil 5 sacks

2007:4-3 with Elvis: 28th in scoring, 3oth against the rush, 7th against the pass. Dumervil 12.5 sacks.

So with Dumervil in a 4-3 the Broncos were very nearly the worst defensive team in the league. In the 3-4, Dumervil was the most disruptive pass rusher in the league, and the defense was respectable in every category.

This defense should be built around Doom, and it seems like a no brainer to me as to which scheme yields better results.

Correlation doesn't prove causation. Almost the entire defensive personnel was different between '08 an '09 as was the entire coaching staff.

Elvis had his best year in '09, but it was also the only year he had a competent coordinator of the 3 that you listed. It still didn't change the fact that he was the leading sack-getter of his draft class even before his league-leading performance last year. Also keep in mind that Elvis was playing with a pretty major hand injury most of the '08 season which definitely inhibited him.

That being said, his run defense skills are way below average in the 4-3 and as montrose was saying, he would basically need to be a passing down specialist to cover up that flaw in his game if we move to a 4-3. Either that or spend some major money on a linebacker that can back him up.

If we were to get Fairley (+/- another highly drafted DT), maybe the double teams that he would command (assuming that he develops into an NFL player of similar quality to his NCAA play) would be enough to cover up Elvis' shortcomings in the run defense.

Dedhed
01-10-2011, 09:49 AM
That being said, his run defense skills are way below average in the 4-3 and as montrose was saying, he would basically need to be a passing down specialist to cover up that flaw in his game if we move to a 4-3. Either that or spend some major money on a linebacker that can back him up.


I don't understand the logic behind taking your best player and putting him in a scheme that turns him into a situational player. Elvis is a situational player in a 4-3.

TonyR
01-10-2011, 09:57 AM
I don't understand the logic behind taking your best player and putting him in a scheme that turns him into a situational player. Elvis is a situational player in a 4-3.

The larger point that people need to realize is that you don't make the decision of the future of the team's defense based on one player. You have to look at the bigger picture, and focusing on one very good but perhaps overrated player would be very myopic and foolish.

gyldenlove
01-10-2011, 10:01 AM
Correlation doesn't prove causation. Almost the entire defensive personnel was different between '08 an '09 as was the entire coaching staff.

Elvis had his best year in '09, but it was also the only year he had a competent coordinator of the 3 that you listed. It still didn't change the fact that he was the leading sack-getter of his draft class even before his league-leading performance last year. Also keep in mind that Elvis was playing with a pretty major hand injury most of the '08 season which definitely inhibited him.

That being said, his run defense skills are way below average in the 4-3 and as montrose was saying, he would basically need to be a passing down specialist to cover up that flaw in his game if we move to a 4-3. Either that or spend some major money on a linebacker that can back him up.

If we were to get Fairley (+/- another highly drafted DT), maybe the double teams that he would command (assuming that he develops into an NFL player of similar quality to his NCAA play) would be enough to cover up Elvis' shortcomings in the run defense.

The biggest difference in 09 relative to 10, 08 or 07 in terms of defense was that we had a defensive coordinator who knew his ass from his elbow. I believe that the main difference between the above average defense we had in 09 and the bottom feeders of 10, 08 and 07 was Nolan. I believe the same can be achieved regardless if we stay with 3-4 or go to 4-3 as long as we get a DC of Mike Nolans caliber.

Right now we don't have any good defensive linemen to keep us in one system or another, at linebacker DJ and Woodyard are better fits at 4-3 but Haggan is better in 3-4. Dumervil would find a home in any formation, Ayers would probably as well.

Dedhed
01-10-2011, 10:02 AM
The larger point that people need to realize is that you don't make the decision of the future of the team's defense based on one player. You have to look at the bigger picture, and focusing on one very good but perhaps overrated player would be very myopic and foolish.
Hogwash. The best franchises in the NFL are centered around a single player. The best schemes in the league are built around maximizing the impact of the most talented guy you have; Ray Lewis in Baltimore, Brady in NE, Polomalu in Pitt, Egghead, Urlacher.

You find a cornerstone, and you build talent around it.

TonyR
01-10-2011, 10:18 AM
Hogwash. The best franchises in the NFL are centered around a single player. The best schemes in the league are built around maximizing the impact of the most talented guy you have; Ray Lewis in Baltimore, Brady in NE, Polomalu in Pitt, Egghead, Urlacher.

You find a cornerstone, and you build talent around it.

Okay, I'll make the point even more directly:

You don't make the decision on the future of the team's defense based solely on Elvis Dumervil.

Killericon
01-10-2011, 10:24 AM
He was terrible for the Eagles against the Pack yesterday.

That should make him nice and cheap. I'm not saying he's gonna fix everything, I just think he'd make a nice tandem with DJ. Then we'd just need a Mike and we'd be set at LB.

Rohirrim
01-10-2011, 10:35 AM
I don't know what to expect out of defenses anymore. Ryan played a scheme on Sunday with one down lineman, 3 LBs (on the line), a couple of more LBs, and the rest Dbacks. I guess that's the anti-wildcat defense. I don't know what you call it. The 1-5 nickle? I think players are coming out bigger, faster, and far more versatile. I suppose a team should have some kind of base D they fall back on when all else fails, but it seems to me the variations are getting pretty wild.

Gcver2ver3
01-10-2011, 10:43 AM
if we reverted back to 4-3, i wouldnt be as upset with Mays, DJ, and Haggans as some others...a fearsome front 4 can make an avg LB core look special...

i say we make a run at DTs...use our first two picks at DT...trade back into the 1st if we have to...doom returns and we give ayers another shot on the end...

with that said, bowers wouldnt hurt my feelings either...

CEH
01-10-2011, 10:45 AM
I don't know what to expect out of defenses anymore. Ryan played a scheme on Sunday with one down lineman, 3 LBs (on the line), a couple of more LBs, and the rest Dbacks. I guess that's the anti-wildcat defense. I don't know what you call it. The 1-5 nickle? I think players are coming out bigger, faster, and far more versatile. I suppose a team should have some kind of base D they fall back on when all else fails, but it seems to me the variations are getting pretty wild.

I can't recall exactly but didn't Nolan want to play Petyon passively and Josh wanted a more blitz scheme hence the start of the falling out between Nolan and Josh.

Or was it the other way around can't remember

Didn't Ryan just say yesterday he had to put his ego in check and play Peyton more passively and that worked out well and they won the game

I now Nolan leaving the the worst mistake Josh made during his time in Denver. Revolving DCs just like Shanny


John mentioned Josh made decisisons that were determental to the Broncos organization. Could this be what he was talking about? Was it Cutler? Spygate II?. Still trying you figure this one out with the info out there so far

Drek
01-10-2011, 10:49 AM
if we reverted back to 4-3, i wouldnt be as upset with Mays, DJ, and Haggans as some others...a fearsome front 4 can make an avg LB core look special...

i say we make a run at DTs...use our first two picks at DT...trade back into the 1st if we have to...doom returns and we give ayers another shot on the end...

with that said, bowers wouldnt hurt my feelings either...

DJ is the only one of those three who wouldn't get absolutely destroyed if asked to play a 4-3 LB's pass protection role.

Mays already failed at this and its why we got him cheap from the Eagles (a smart personnel team). Haggan has shown that he struggles to even do that job as a 3-4 SILB, it won't get better in a 4-3.

Gcver2ver3
01-10-2011, 11:00 AM
DJ is the only one of those three who wouldn't get absolutely destroyed if asked to play a 4-3 LB's pass protection role.

Mays already failed at this and its why we got him cheap from the Eagles (a smart personnel team). Haggan has shown that he struggles to even do that job as a 3-4 SILB, it won't get better in a 4-3.

you're right...

but i'd live with it so as long as we stopped the run, which is our biggest issue far as i'm concerned...and as i said, with a strong front four, even those three look better in coverage...but yeah, Hagganns and Mays can't cover...

Drek
01-10-2011, 11:06 AM
you're right...

but i'd live with it so as long as we stopped the run, which is our biggest issue far as i'm concerned...and as i said, with a strong front four, even those three look better in coverage...but yeah, Hagganns and Mays can't cover...

There isn't a TE, FB, or RB in the league who wouldn't have a field day working against one of those two. We can stop the run all we want if teams use screens and short slants and curls to replace the running game.

If we go 4-3 you relegate both to the same situational run stuffer and STs role, which Haggan is too well payed for so he'd have to be cut. You then scratch your head because your two best 4-3 LBs both are best fits at WOLB.

We can't keep changing defensive schemes. We're half way towards a 3-4 defense now and that is what benefits our highest paid defensive player (Doom), works well for our second best front seven guy (DJ) as well as the next tier of front seven players (Ayers, Mays, Hunter, Haggan, Bannan).

In a 3-4 we're good at four positions in the front seven, with options at a 5th and backup depth that isn't completely embarrassing. In a 4-3 we're passable at maybe three, with absolutely no depth.

OrangeSe7en
01-10-2011, 12:59 PM
There isn't a TE, FB, or RB in the league who wouldn't have a field day working against one of those two. We can stop the run all we want if teams use screens and short slants and curls to replace the running game.

If we go 4-3 you relegate both to the same situational run stuffer and STs role, which Haggan is too well payed for so he'd have to be cut. You then scratch your head because your two best 4-3 LBs both are best fits at WOLB.

We can't keep changing defensive schemes. We're half way towards a 3-4 defense now and that is what benefits our highest paid defensive player (Doom), works well for our second best front seven guy (DJ) as well as the next tier of front seven players (Ayers, Mays, Hunter, Haggan, Bannan).

In a 3-4 we're good at four positions in the front seven, with options at a 5th and backup depth that isn't completely embarrassing. In a 4-3 we're passable at maybe three, with absolutely no depth.

No, but we can decide if some point in the past was the origin for the system we run or we can decide if the present is day 0.

Drek
01-10-2011, 01:08 PM
No, but we can decide if some point in the past was the origin for the system we run or we can decide if the present is day 0.

Yes, another day 0. Just like when McD started, or when we fired Bates and replaced him with Slowick. Or when we fired Coyer and replaced him with Bates. Even though they all ran 4-3's they were drastically different schemes.

It all depends on who the HC is though. The real problem is our "GM" isn't a system guy either. A big reason why the Steelers FO kicks ass is that they know the guys they draft this year, next year, and every year going forward will be playing in a 3-4. So then they grab guys like Aaron Smith and James Harrison, one a 4th round perennial starter, the other a practice squader they developed into a DPOY.

The Eagles do this with the 4-3. Constantly pulling guys out of nowhere that they've been following, inviting to camp, practice squading, etc. for years when no one else even knows their name. Then suddenly he's a weekly starter for four years before they replace him with another supposed JAG they took from collegiate nobody to NFL starter over a half decade of development.

To do that we need to know not just if we want 3-4 DEs or 4-3 DEs, we need to know if we want a one gap or two gap 3-4, if we prefer taller, leaner DEs or shorter, stouter DEs, etc.. All the various things we fans can't even comprehend that make up a fully realized NFL scheme but that the team should be drafting towards year in and year out regardless of who the coaches might be.

Chris
01-10-2011, 01:12 PM
What he means is:

Check yoself.... before you Drek yoself.

OrangeSe7en
01-10-2011, 01:19 PM
Yes, another day 0. Just like when McD started, or when we fired Bates and replaced him with Slowick. Or when we fired Coyer and replaced him with Bates. Even though they all ran 4-3's they were drastically different schemes.

It all depends on who the HC is though. The real problem is our "GM" isn't a system guy either. A big reason why the Steelers FO kicks ass is that they know the guys they draft this year, next year, and every year going forward will be playing in a 3-4. So then they grab guys like Aaron Smith and James Harrison, one a 4th round perennial starter, the other a practice squader they developed into a DPOY.

The Eagles do this with the 4-3. Constantly pulling guys out of nowhere that they've been following, inviting to camp, practice squading, etc. for years when no one else even knows their name. Then suddenly he's a weekly starter for four years before they replace him with another supposed JAG they took from collegiate nobody to NFL starter over a half decade of development.

To do that we need to know not just if we want 3-4 DEs or 4-3 DEs, we need to know if we want a one gap or two gap 3-4, if we prefer taller, leaner DEs or shorter, stouter DEs, etc.. All the various things we fans can't even comprehend that make up a fully realized NFL scheme but that the team should be drafting towards year in and year out regardless of who the coaches might be.

You might have a leg to stand on but the defense was horrific. Making a change would be easily justified.

Gcver2ver3
01-10-2011, 01:42 PM
Yes, another day 0. Just like when McD started, or when we fired Bates and replaced him with Slowick. Or when we fired Coyer and replaced him with Bates. Even though they all ran 4-3's they were drastically different schemes.

It all depends on who the HC is though. The real problem is our "GM" isn't a system guy either. A big reason why the Steelers FO kicks ass is that they know the guys they draft this year, next year, and every year going forward will be playing in a 3-4. So then they grab guys like Aaron Smith and James Harrison, one a 4th round perennial starter, the other a practice squader they developed into a DPOY.

The Eagles do this with the 4-3. Constantly pulling guys out of nowhere that they've been following, inviting to camp, practice squading, etc. for years when no one else even knows their name. Then suddenly he's a weekly starter for four years before they replace him with another supposed JAG they took from collegiate nobody to NFL starter over a half decade of development.

To do that we need to know not just if we want 3-4 DEs or 4-3 DEs, we need to know if we want a one gap or two gap 3-4, if we prefer taller, leaner DEs or shorter, stouter DEs, etc.. All the various things we fans can't even comprehend that make up a fully realized NFL scheme but that the team should be drafting towards year in and year out regardless of who the coaches might be.

your points are too valid to counter...

perhaps staying 3-4 is the best way to go...but my feelings wouldn't be hurt if we switched back and even with LB coverage issues, if we're stopping the run we improve vastly compared to where we've been...but you're still right...Mays and Haggans in coverage = disaster...

srphoenix
01-12-2011, 09:40 AM
Seems to me like most of our new coaching options favor the 4-3 as well and since we don't have nor are likely to get the prototypical NT in this draft and Williams is just about gone, we might be better getting the better than prototypical UT in Fairley and switching to the 4-3, Denver Post ran a good article mainly focusing on Doom's switch to a RDE in a 4-3

From the Denver Post:

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_17068126?source=rss

I tend to agree and think our team is actually better suited for a 4-3 even if the nfl trend is more towards a 3-4.

LDE- Ayers back in natural position, excels at run stopping, may be better pass rusher here

DT- Fairley hopefully otherwise Bannen who may be better at the 3-4 but has the size necessary

DT- Marcus Thomas/Bannen Thomas' size and strength are suited in my opinion to be better in a 4-3

RDE- Dumervil, see the linked article suggests that this is the more natural fit for his pass rushing skills, would he be a liability in the run though? Could we use him as an in between at times, have him drop back in pass coverage? Easily our best defensive player in my mind.

Weak Side LB- D.J. Williams, able to flow in space and use his speed more effectively, natural position and has had his best years here

MLB- Joe Mays/ Draft/ Free agency, really the biggest toss up on the D, Joe Mays is better in a 3-4 as a thumper but may not have the speed to cover the extra ground needed in the 4-3

Strong Side LB- Another potential question area, don't know who we have that naturally fits this position, anyone have some good ideas?

Defensive backs stay in their same positions.

Drek
01-12-2011, 09:57 AM
your points are too valid to counter...

perhaps staying 3-4 is the best way to go...but my feelings wouldn't be hurt if we switched back and even with LB coverage issues, if we're stopping the run we improve vastly compared to where we've been...but you're still right...Mays and Haggans in coverage = disaster...

Its not that we shouldn't consider a 4-3, we just need to be honest about the fact that as horrible as we are at the 3-4, we're actually even less suited to a 4-3 right now.

My argument is entirely against the notion that somehow our talent is a better fit to a 4-3 as opposed to a 3-4, when we've only got three players you could even pencil in as starters in a 4-3 front (Doom, DJ, and Ayers) the best of whom would be then put in a less optimal role.

The last time we saw Dumervil on the field it was in a 3-4 and we were a middle of the road D. Not great but significantly better than the '08 squad. We lose him and suddenly we're a bottom feeder D in 2010 again. Seems to be a common theme here. No need to throw the 3-4 front out just because it doesn't look good without our elite pass rusher.

Ultimately though if the FO looks over the off-season options, the coaching options, etc. and decides that we can get the best combination of talent, coaches and players, by going 4-3 then by all means do it. But assess it objectively and understand that when we make that move we might as well cut Haggan, Mays, etc..

TheReverend
01-12-2011, 10:01 AM
You get a good middle linebacker and call it a day.

montrose
01-12-2011, 10:03 AM
You get a good middle linebacker and call it a day.

I miss Al Wilson.

http://broncotalk.net/images/alwilson2.jpg

Taco John
01-12-2011, 10:04 AM
You get a good middle linebacker and call it a day.

Casey Matthews.

TheReverend
01-12-2011, 10:05 AM
I miss Al Wilson.

http://broncotalk.net/images/alwilson2.jpg

Everyone should. Imo, with him we'd have had playoff appearances in every season.

Drek
01-12-2011, 10:05 AM
I miss Al Wilson.

http://broncotalk.net/images/alwilson2.jpg

Who doesn't?

The decline of this defense under Shanahan coincided directly with Wilson's departure, even with similar personnel in all the rest of the positions. Tells you a lot about how much Wilson was carrying this defensive front seven.

TheReverend
01-12-2011, 10:05 AM
Casey Matthews.

Sorry, I said "good" middle linebacker. Disqualified. :)

Taco John
01-12-2011, 10:08 AM
Sorry, I said "good" middle linebacker. Disqualified. :)

You talking 1st or second round pick? I'm thinking we could get Casey at the top of the third.

TheReverend
01-12-2011, 10:11 AM
You talking 1st or second round pick? I'm thinking we could get Casey at the top of the third.

You can get him in the 4th! And that's before the "pre workouts white LB slide" that takes place annually.

Jones or McCarthy with the later 2nd.

Taco John
01-12-2011, 10:11 AM
Hmmm... I just checked Walter Football, and if his rankings mean anything, this is a very thin draft at inside linebacker.

He has Matthews going in the 5-7 rounds. I guess all the PacNW hype I've been reading up here has gone to my head. Love the kid's fire though...

Rohirrim
01-12-2011, 10:17 AM
Casey Matthews.

Bingo! :thumbs:

TonyR
01-12-2011, 10:18 AM
You can get him in the 4th! And that's before the "pre workouts white LB slide" that takes place annually.

Jones or McCarthy with the later 2nd.

Rev, are you suggesting a 4-3? Or not necessarily?

Rohirrim
01-12-2011, 10:18 AM
Hmmm... I just checked Walter Football, and if his rankings mean anything, this is a very thin draft at inside linebacker.

He has Matthews going in the 5-7 rounds. I guess all the PacNW hype I've been reading up here has gone to my head. Love the kid's fire though...

Everybody in the Pac 10 sucks. You didn't know that?

Ray Finkle
01-12-2011, 10:19 AM
Hmmm... I just checked Walter Football, and if his rankings mean anything, this is a very thin draft at inside linebacker.

He has Matthews going in the 5-7 rounds. I guess all the PacNW hype I've been reading up here has gone to my head. Love the kid's fire though...

decent site but takes any chance he can bash denver.

TheReverend
01-12-2011, 10:21 AM
Peterson, Paea, Jones

Defense=Fixed.

:lombardi:

TheReverend
01-12-2011, 10:21 AM
Rev, are you suggesting a 4-3? Or not necessarily?

I like the 3-4 better, but we're better off in a 4-3, imo.

Kaylore
01-12-2011, 10:22 AM
Peterson, Paea, Jones

Defense=Fixed.

:lombardi:

No Fairley?

gyldenlove
01-12-2011, 10:23 AM
For the 4-3 I would start Woodyard at WLB and DJ at MLB, draft a SLB and DT and call it a day.

Ayers, Dumervil and Hunter can be the DEs with some stooge as a backup, Bannan and Thomas can rotate at one DT spot and whoever is drafted gets the other.

baja
01-12-2011, 10:24 AM
You get a good middle linebacker and call it a day.

That sure would solve a lot of problems

Bigdawg26
01-12-2011, 10:27 AM
Seems to me like most of our new coaching options favor the 4-3 as well and since we don't have nor are likely to get the prototypical NT in this draft and Williams is just about gone, we might be better getting the better than prototypical UT in Fairley and switching to the 4-3, Denver Post ran a good article mainly focusing on Doom's switch to a RDE in a 4-3

From the Denver Post:

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_17068126?source=rss

I tend to agree and think our team is actually better suited for a 4-3 even if the nfl trend is more towards a 3-4.

LDE- Ayers back in natural position, excels at run stopping, may be better pass rusher here

DT- Fairley hopefully otherwise Bannen who may be better at the 3-4 but has the size necessary

DT- Marcus Thomas/Bannen Thomas' size and strength are suited in my opinion to be better in a 4-3

RDE- Dumervil, see the linked article suggests that this is the more natural fit for his pass rushing skills, would he be a liability in the run though? Could we use him as an in between at times, have him drop back in pass coverage? Easily our best defensive player in my mind.

Weak Side LB- D.J. Williams, able to flow in space and use his speed more effectively, natural position and has had his best years here

MLB- Joe Mays/ Draft/ Free agency, really the biggest toss up on the D, Joe Mays is better in a 3-4 as a thumper but may not have the speed to cover the extra ground needed in the 4-3

Strong Side LB- Another potential question area, don't know who we have that naturally fits this position, anyone have some good ideas?

Defensive backs stay in their same positions.

I 100 percent agree with this line-up but I say use our two second rounders on a ILB and an OLB or pick one up in FA. That would be the best defense talent wise in a long time. And we could put Dawkins in the box and Champ rooming in center field and sign Nmandi at corner.

TheReverend
01-12-2011, 10:28 AM
No Fairley?

If Peterson and Fairley are both on the board, I'd go Peterson all day every day. Not to take anything away from Fairley. I think he's a fantastic player, but we can grab a talented dancing bear at the top of the second thanks to it's positions depth and there's still months to overscout these guys and get some premier players falling into the 2-3rd :)

Kaylore
01-12-2011, 10:30 AM
If Peterson and Fairley are both on the board, I'd go Peterson all day every day. Not to take anything away from Fairley. I think he's a fantastic player, but we can grab a talented dancing bear at the top of the second thanks to it's positions depth and there's still months to overscout these guys and get some premier players falling into the 2-3rd :)

I bet you Peterson drops from over-scouting before Fairley does.

Gcver2ver3
01-12-2011, 10:31 AM
Its not that we shouldn't consider a 4-3, we just need to be honest about the fact that as horrible as we are at the 3-4, we're actually even less suited to a 4-3 right now.

My argument is entirely against the notion that somehow our talent is a better fit to a 4-3 as opposed to a 3-4, when we've only got three players you could even pencil in as starters in a 4-3 front (Doom, DJ, and Ayers) the best of whom would be then put in a less optimal role.

The last time we saw Dumervil on the field it was in a 3-4 and we were a middle of the road D. Not great but significantly better than the '08 squad. We lose him and suddenly we're a bottom feeder D in 2010 again. Seems to be a common theme here. No need to throw the 3-4 front out just because it doesn't look good without our elite pass rusher.

Ultimately though if the FO looks over the off-season options, the coaching options, etc. and decides that we can get the best combination of talent, coaches and players, by going 4-3 then by all means do it. But assess it objectively and understand that when we make that move we might as well cut Haggan, Mays, etc..

okay, i see what you're saying...

excellent perspective...so with that said, if you were the GM who would you select at #2?...many people feel Fairly is a 4-3 DT (although he may go #1 making it a moot point)....would you select Fairly or someone elese?...

TheReverend
01-12-2011, 10:35 AM
I bet you Peterson drops from over-scouting before Fairley does.

I could care less. I'll honestly be extremely happy as long as the pick isn't AJ Green. Still passing on Peterson would be a big mistake, imo.

Drek
01-12-2011, 10:45 AM
okay, i see what you're saying...

excellent perspective...so with that said, if you were the GM who would you select at #2?...many people feel Fairly is a 4-3 DT (although he may go #1 making it a moot point)....would you select Fairly or someone elese?...

You decide if you want to run a 4-3 or a 3-4, then you take Fairley or Dareus respectively.

We need serious talent investments on the DL if we want to turn this thing around. I absolutely love Peterson as a prospect and if there was some way we could take him and still land some quality DL help I'd be all for it. But that seems like a reach.

Kaylore
01-12-2011, 10:57 AM
I could care less. I'll honestly be extremely happy as long as the pick isn't AJ Green.
Well we agree at least that it's hard to miss on a pick that high. And that Green, like Milk, is a bad choice.

fontaine
01-12-2011, 10:57 AM
Why the hell are we over complicating this sh*t?

Watch any decent to great 3-4 Defense and the DEs can line out wider because the NT can take on two OL easily and they have two inside backers that are heavy weight hard hitters. That leaves the DEs to contain the run and the OLB free to attack the QB and disrupt the run game.

1. Sign Namdi Asomoghu
2. We aleady have decent backups for a 3-4 front in Thomas/Bannon/Vickerson
3. Draft at least two DL that can come in and project to long term starters.
4. Trade for a better NT or DE.
5. Sign Kamerion Wimbley as the backup OLB.

Job done.

GoBroncos84
01-12-2011, 10:59 AM
3 moves: sign Champ, sign David Harris, draft Fairley or Dareus.


Harris has a good chance of getting away from jets. They paid Ferguson, mangold, and revis and want to bring back cromartie edwards and holmes. Can't pay them all.

Lde- Ayers
Dt- bannen
Dt- fairley
Rde- doom

Sam- haggan
Mike- Harris
will- Williams

Cb-bailey, goodman
S- Dawkins, Rahim Moore

That's one free agent, one re-sign, and our first 2 draft picks. Add depth with rest of draft and free agency.

TonyR
01-12-2011, 11:01 AM
1. Sign Namdi Asomoghu
2. We aleady have decent backups for a 3-4 front in Thomas/Bannon/Vickerson
3. Draft at least two DL that can come in and project to long term starters.
4. Trade for a better NT or DE.
5. Sign Kamerion Wimbley as the backup OLB.

Job done.

1 will never happen, and 4 wrongly assumes you can find a better NT or DE and then have the ammo to land them. There just aren't enough good 3-4 NT's to go around and there is better 4-3 talent available in the draft.

Gcver2ver3
01-12-2011, 11:03 AM
You decide if you want to run a 4-3 or a 3-4, then you take Fairley or Dareus respectively.

We need serious talent investments on the DL if we want to turn this thing around. I absolutely love Peterson as a prospect and if there was some way we could take him and still land some quality DL help I'd be all for it. But that seems like a reach.

didn't get a definitive answer from you...if you had the #2 pick and you're GM who do you pick (assuming all the players you mentioned are available)?...

i would take Fairley...and then go to a 4-3 and have Doom, Ayers, Thomas join him on the line...if Fairly is gone, then i'd go Patterson and seriously considered staying at 3-4...

i'm curious what you would do...at #2 who is your pick?...

cutthemdown
01-12-2011, 11:04 AM
Anyone who thinks Dawkins can start another yr didn't watch him much this yr. He looks like he runs about 5 flat 40 yrd dash now. Age has caught up to him. He may be decent to keep around as a mentor/bkup but his days of playing at a high level consistently for 16 games is over.

Broncos should look to maybe sign a different journeyman safety until we get some young studs drafted.

HorseHead
01-12-2011, 11:09 AM
David Harris, wearing our colors = erect-on..

cutthemdown
01-12-2011, 11:09 AM
Why the hell are we over complicating this sh*t?

Watch any decent to great 3-4 Defense and the DEs can line out wider because the NT can take on two OL easily and they have two inside backers that are heavy weight hard hitters. That leaves the DEs to contain the run and the OLB free to attack the QB and disrupt the run game.

1. Sign Namdi Asomoghu he would be among the hardest to sign

2. We aleady have decent backups for a 3-4 front in Thomas/Bannon/Vickerson

3. Draft at least two DL that can come in and project to long term starters.if it was that easy Jarvis Moss would be a pro bowler right now.
4. Trade for a better NT or DE.Teams don't trade good players for nothing
5. Sign Kamerion Wimbley as the backup OLB.Superbowl

Job done.


oh yeah

cutthemdown
01-12-2011, 11:11 AM
David Harris, wearing our colors = erect-on..

The chances of the Broncos luring any of the big name FA is slim IMO. Sure maybe if we offer the most money. People forget when we won, when we had Elway, it was easy to get whatever FA we wanted, often at a discount.

I think they could maybe have a shot at a RB like Micheal Bush who wants to start.

fdf
01-12-2011, 11:13 AM
you're right...

but i'd live with it so as long as we stopped the run, which is our biggest issue far as i'm concerned...and as i said, with a strong front four, even those three look better in coverage...but yeah, Hagganns and Mays can't cover...

I think we are equally weak in third down and eight. Pass across the middle completed for ten yards. It's like clockwork.

fontaine
01-12-2011, 11:17 AM
1 will never happen, and 4 wrongly assumes you can find a better NT or DE and then have the ammo to land them. There just aren't enough good 3-4 NT's to go around and there is better 4-3 talent available in the draft.


Really? If the FO wanted to sign Champ and only took the deal off the table because of the uncertainty around the labor agreement then signing Namdi is pretty realistic. Both are going to command top dollar and champ has already said we won't be getting a home team discount.

And as far as 3-4 NTs go? Pouha, Randy Starks, Shaun Rogers were availabe via free agency or trades off the top of my head. Not to mention quality DEs can be gotten for a 2nd round pick via trade if your HC isn't a fist pumping idiot who's too busy using those same 2nd round picks on clown TEs that can't block or catch or CBs that don't want to compete.

SoCalBronco
01-12-2011, 11:37 AM
You decide if you want to run a 4-3 or a 3-4, then you take Fairley or Dareus respectively.



If we don't trade down (which IMO is the preferred option), then I defintiely agree with your approach.

Rohirrim
01-12-2011, 11:42 AM
My biggest hope in this draft is that Gabbert, Locker and Newton blow all the scouts away in the Combine and we are able to trade down twice, loading up picks and coming out of the first with Paea or Jordan.

Popps
01-12-2011, 11:46 AM
Agree with the Dareus/Fairley take... depending on which scheme.

Also, get DJ Williams out of the middle for good. If we run a 3-4, trade him for anything we can get. If we run a 4-3, start him at his natural position on the weak side.

Either way, we should be looking to draft a real ILB talent if any are out there.

cutthemdown
01-12-2011, 11:53 AM
For the 4-3 I would start Woodyard at WLB and DJ at MLB, draft a SLB and DT and call it a day.

Ayers, Dumervil and Hunter can be the DEs with some stooge as a backup, Bannan and Thomas can rotate at one DT spot and whoever is drafted gets the other.

from wil, to sam, to inside in a 3-4, to MLB in a 4-3. Man why is DJ always asked to play out of position?

Ray Finkle
01-12-2011, 11:56 AM
If we don't trade down (which IMO is the preferred option), then I defintiely agree with your approach.

things Socal says during draft time

"We should trade down"
"We need to stock pile picks"
"If he is from the U, he's for you!"
"Only trade DJ for the #1 overall pick"
"I am not as cool as RMFF but some day aspire to be"

gyldenlove
01-12-2011, 11:59 AM
from wil, to sam, to inside in a 3-4, to MLB in a 4-3. Man why is DJ always asked to play out of position?

I don't think he will ever be the WLB he once was, been too long.

cutthemdown
01-12-2011, 11:59 AM
Agree with the Dareus/Fairley take... depending on which scheme.

Also, get DJ Williams out of the middle for good. If we run a 3-4, trade him for anything we can get. If we run a 4-3, start him at his natural position on the weak side.

Either way, we should be looking to draft a real ILB talent if any are out there.

great post. Why do people not see Dj's game. It's about running around blockers, dropping into coverage, and using his speed. He's not physical enough to play inside in a 3-4, ssl in a 4-3, or mlb in a 4-3. If we can't play him on the weakside they should try and move him in a trade or just let him walk and sign someone like Harris from the jets.

SoCalBronco
01-12-2011, 12:02 PM
things Socal says during draft time

"We should trade down"
"We need to stock pile picks"
"If he is from the U, he's for you!"
"Only trade DJ for the #1 overall pick"
"I am not as cool as RMFF but some day aspire to be"

2 things

1. Virtually no one is as cool as RMFF, so its hardly a strike against me that I'm not on that level.

2. I wouldn't trade DJ for the No. 1 overall pick in this draft.

cutthemdown
01-12-2011, 12:02 PM
I don't think he will ever be the WLB he once was, been too long.

Then just say goodbye to him and move on. He sheds blocks about as good as you or I would. I'm so sick of watching him be unwilling to sacrifice his body at the point of attack.

A good linebacker when hes the first one there will just blow up the blockers in he can't get to the ball carrier. Not DJ though he will dilly dally trying to run around them. The result is the next defender now still has to deal with blockers.

Remember how Romo would blow up a play? Remember who Al Wilson would blow up a play? That's how you play linebacker, full speed ahead. Deejay like to dance around like a little school girl listening to Katy Perry.

Bigdawg26
01-12-2011, 12:03 PM
The chances of the Broncos luring any of the big name FA is slim IMO. Sure maybe if we offer the most money. People forget when we won, when we had Elway, it was easy to get whatever FA we wanted, often at a discount.

I think they could maybe have a shot at a RB like Micheal Bush who wants to start.

Yeah I think that is partialy true but I think if a well respected and/or fun coach comes in (ferwell) and the money is right we could pick up one or two big names on the defensive side of the ball. I think if we add Nmandi then we could get champ to see we are serious and resign to play FS and draft Farley and a couple of LB's we are back in business boys!

gyldenlove
01-12-2011, 12:11 PM
Then just say goodbye to him and move on. He sheds blocks about as good as you or I would. I'm so sick of watching him be unwilling to sacrifice his body at the point of attack.

A good linebacker when hes the first one there will just blow up the blockers in he can't get to the ball carrier. Not DJ though he will dilly dally trying to run around them. The result is the next defender now still has to deal with blockers.

Remember how Romo would blow up a play? Remember who Al Wilson would blow up a play? That's how you play linebacker, full speed ahead. Deejay like to dance around like a little school girl listening to Katy Perry.

You have obviously not seen me shop for sales at the mall on the 26th, I am shedding blocks like Ndamokung Suh on speed. Well if we are going to have Dumervil on the weakside DE we can not have DJ there, so I agree in that case one of them has to go. I believe the better option is to stick DJ in the middle behind some real AAA beef and hope he doesn't have to deal with too many blockers, it worked to Ray Lewis.

SoCalBronco
01-12-2011, 12:12 PM
I don't think he will ever be the WLB he once was, been too long.

It's been too long?

You know he was playing there in 2008 and having a Pro Bowl caliber season before he got hurt against the Dolphins right? 2 years is too long?

fontaine
01-12-2011, 12:23 PM
Then just say goodbye to him and move on. He sheds blocks about as good as you or I would. I'm so sick of watching him be unwilling to sacrifice his body at the point of attack.

A good linebacker when hes the first one there will just blow up the blockers in he can't get to the ball carrier. Not DJ though he will dilly dally trying to run around them. The result is the next defender now still has to deal with blockers.

Remember how Romo would blow up a play? Remember who Al Wilson would blow up a play? That's how you play linebacker, full speed ahead. Deejay like to dance around like a little school girl listening to Katy Perry.

Not really since Wilson's game was based around being a great coverage LB so often his role was against the pass rather than fighting through traffic.

Also, I'm always amused by posters who just want to get rid of good players who's only fault seems to be that they're either not as good as a former Bronco great like Wilson/Romo or they're not great enough to overcome an awful DL.

Mays and Haggan have absolutely zero range in coverage, have no sideline to sideline speed but nevermind, let's get rid of the only LB in the team in DJ that can play all three downs in coverage/run support.

Yeah, that should fix the DL for sure!

ayjackson
01-12-2011, 12:30 PM
If we switch to 4-3, we draft Fairley in the first and linebackers the rest of the way. And better resign Champ.

Dedhed
01-12-2011, 12:34 PM
3 moves: sign Champ, sign David Harris, draft Fairley or Dareus.


Harris has a good chance of getting away from jets. They paid Ferguson, mangold, and revis and want to bring back cromartie edwards and holmes. Can't pay them all.

Lde- Ayers
Dt- bannen
Dt- fairley
Rde- doom

Sam- haggan
Mike- Harris
will- Williams

Cb-bailey, goodman
S- Dawkins, Rahim Moore

That's one free agent, one re-sign, and our first 2 draft picks. Add depth with rest of draft and free agency.
Why would you want to go 4-3 if you sign David Harris?

Harris is my number one FA wish other than Haloti Ngata, who would be completely impossible to get.

I think the our lineman have done a better job holding the point than the backers have done in filling their gaps, and that that is the real liability on the defense (combined with terrible safety play). I think DJ needs to go; he isn't a MLB at all, and at this point I think he's too fried to be able to play instinctively. I would try to ship him to Shanahan (but anyone will do) who can utilize him as a 4-3 WLB for a 3rd rounder.

Then our LB corps looks like this:
Ayers
Harris
Haggan/Mays/Rookie/Woodyard in passing situations
Dumervil

My second FA wish is Aubreyo Farnklin, but if that's a pipe dream I would look to Gabe Watson or Gerard Warren to play NT and draft a rook there as well and move Bannan to DE.

Bannan/Rookie
Aubreyo/Watson/Williams/Rookie
Vickerson/Thomas/Rookie

We need players everywhere, so it's going to be impossible to address all our defensive needs in 1 off-season, but our best players are Dumervil, Ayers, and Bannan. All are better suited to 3-4, IMO.

Rohirrim
01-12-2011, 12:35 PM
It's been too long?

You know he was playing there in 2008 and having a Pro Bowl caliber season before he got hurt against the Dolphins right? 2 years is too long?

All I know is, I watched the GBay game this weekend and kept hearing, "Clay Matthews blew that play up. Clay Matthews on the tackle. Clay knocked that one down. Clay is really attacking the rusher. Clay stuffed that fourth down try. Clay this. Clay that." When I watch a Broncos game I'm usually thinking, "Is DJ playing today?" while I'm looking for his jersey.

gyldenlove
01-12-2011, 12:40 PM
It's been too long?

You know he was playing there in 2008 and having a Pro Bowl caliber season before he got hurt against the Dolphins right? 2 years is too long?

I believe so. Plus even in 2008 I didn't think he looked like the player he was in 2004, although that may be partly due to the parade of clowns he played with in 08.

Kaylore
01-12-2011, 12:42 PM
things Socal says during draft time

"We should trade down"
"We need to stock pile picks"
"If he is from the U, he's for you!"
"Only trade DJ for the #1 overall pick"
"I am not as cool as RMFF but some day aspire to be"

I see you even listed them in order of usage. Well done. :)

SoCalBronco
01-12-2011, 12:47 PM
All I know is, I watched the GBay game this weekend and kept hearing, "Clay Matthews blew that play up. Clay Matthews on the tackle. Clay knocked that one down. Clay is really attacking the rusher. Clay stuffed that fourth down try. Clay this. Clay that." When I watch a Broncos game I'm usually thinking, "Is DJ playing today?" while I'm looking for his jersey.

He's done about as well as anyone could possibly do given that he has NEVER played behind a decent DL and in his proper position for even ONE YEAR here. Not even once. The two years he played at his proper position even without a good line in front of him, he had objectively very good seasons. I don't think people appreciate what he has to offer. Even Josh was very complimentary of what DJ brings to the table...which is surprising since he was a Shanahan holdover. He's also very well thought of in league circles, so I think you guys just dont get it. He led the team in tackles AND SACKS and was 3rd overall (behind only Champ and Cox) in passes defensed, playing in a scheme that doesnt suit him and behind a **** line (again). What else do you want?

TheReverend
01-12-2011, 01:04 PM
He's done about as well as anyone could possibly do given that he has NEVER played behind a decent DL and in his proper position for even ONE YEAR here. Not even once. The two years he played at his proper position even without a good line in front of him, he had objectively very good seasons. I don't think people appreciate what he has to offer. Even Josh was very complimentary of what DJ brings to the table...which is surprising since he was a Shanahan holdover. He's also very well thought of in league circles, so I think you guys just dont get it. He led the team in tackles AND SACKS and was 3rd overall (behind only Champ and Cox) in passes defensed, playing in a scheme that doesnt suit him and behind a **** line (again). What else do you want?

I thought last year was his best in half a decade, personally.

Rohirrim
01-12-2011, 01:04 PM
He's done about as well as anyone could possibly do given that he has NEVER played behind a decent DL and in his proper position for even ONE YEAR here. Not even once. The two years he played at his proper position even without a good line in front of him, he had objectively very good seasons. I don't think people appreciate what he has to offer. Even Josh was very complimentary of what DJ brings to the table...which is surprising since he was a Shanahan holdover. He's also very well thought of in league circles, so I think you guys just dont get it. He led the team in tackles AND SACKS and was 3rd overall (behind only Champ and Cox) in passes defensed, playing in a scheme that doesnt suit him and behind a **** line (again). What else do you want?

Obviously, we want Clay Matthews. ;D

Drek
01-12-2011, 01:08 PM
didn't get a definitive answer from you...if you had the #2 pick and you're GM who do you pick (assuming all the players you mentioned are available)?...

i would take Fairley...and then go to a 4-3 and have Doom, Ayers, Thomas join him on the line...if Fairly is gone, then i'd go Patterson and seriously considered staying at 3-4...

i'm curious what you would do...at #2 who is your pick?...

My personal preference?

Stick with the 3-4, try your damnedest to trade back from #2 to ~#5 to maximize value but either way you take Dareus. Get Stephen Paea, even if that means trading back up into the first to grab him at the expense of both 2nd rounders.

Sign a quality FA corner to compete with Goodman. Lito Sheppard isn't a bad pick, he can play nickel too if he isn't the #2. Resign Champ.

Go get two of Aubrayo Franklin (SF), Cullen Jenkins (GB), Shaun Ellis (NYJ) or Trevor Pryce (NYJ).

Suddenly the 3-4 looks a whole lot better, you give Mays and Haggan a year for one of them to take over the SILB job, but find a late round project with some pass rush to develop and don't be afraid to draft it early in the next draft.

Ray Finkle
01-12-2011, 01:09 PM
2 things

1. Virtually no one is as cool as RMFF, so its hardly a strike against me that I'm not on that level.

2. I wouldn't trade DJ for the No. 1 overall pick in this draft.

Things I would trade DJ for:

1. a first or second
2. a second and fourth
3. a case of Arrogant Bastard Ale and a Pizza
4. a valid explanation of why someone finds Kevin James funny

SoCalBronco
01-12-2011, 01:11 PM
Things I would trade DJ for:

1. a first or second
2. a second and fourth
3. a case of Arrogant Bastard Ale and a Pizza
4. a valid explanation of why someone finds Kevin James funny

Xanders could get you the pizza. He probably finds Kevin James funny, too.

Kaylore
01-12-2011, 01:12 PM
Karate: The Dane Cook of martial arts.

gyldenlove
01-12-2011, 01:14 PM
Things I would trade DJ for:

1. a first or second
2. a second and fourth
3. a case of Arrogant Bastard Ale and a Pizza
4. a valid explanation of why someone finds Kevin James funny

1. Sounds reasonable.
2. If you would take a second, why would you suddenly want a second and a fourth?
3. I have never tried this arrodant bastard ale, but I like the idea.
4. No such explanation exists. Kevin James is about as funny as doing your taxes.

Ray Finkle
01-12-2011, 01:16 PM
1. Sounds reasonable.
2. If you would take a second, why would you suddenly want a second and a fourth?
3. I have never tried this arrodant bastard ale, but I like the idea.
4. No such explanation exists. Kevin James is about as funny as doing your taxes.

got greedy....

Arrogant Bastard is a keeper.....basically anything from Stone Brewery is.

Ray Finkle
01-12-2011, 01:17 PM
xanders could get you the pizza. He probably finds kevin james funny, too.

zing!

edog24
01-12-2011, 01:31 PM
Probably too early too tell, but if we get a strong character no nonsense type coach and DC, I would like for us to deal with Washington somehow to land Haynesworth.

If someone can get in his head and straighten him up he would be a good addition, plus we know the skins could use Orton.

bendog
01-12-2011, 01:31 PM
I just threw up a little in my mouth.

Baba Booey
01-12-2011, 01:31 PM
I'd like to see Fewell coach Doom.

SoCalBronco
01-12-2011, 01:32 PM
I'd like to see Fewell coach Doom.

We lost Stoutland to Bama. :(

broncswin
01-12-2011, 01:32 PM
[QUOTE=Rohirrim;3083473]All I know is, I watched the GBay game this weekend and kept hearing, "Clay Matthews blew that play up. Clay Matthews on the tackle. Clay knocked that one down. Clay is really attacking the rusher. Clay stuffed that fourth down try. Clay this. Clay that." [B][B]When I watch a Broncos game I'm usually thinking, "Is DJ playing today?" while I'm looking for his jersey.

LOL...holy shiat, that is exaclty how I feel!!

GoBroncos84
01-12-2011, 01:41 PM
D.J. is a good player. Hasn't reached his full potential which is frustrating, but he is coming off a 120 tackle 5.5 sack season. Not easy to replace that production. 3-4 or 4-3 I still think he's worth having around

bendog
01-12-2011, 01:56 PM
Perry Fewell reminds me of percy and the olympians.

Gcver2ver3
01-12-2011, 01:56 PM
My personal preference?

Stick with the 3-4, try your damnedest to trade back from #2 to ~#5 to maximize value but either way you take Dareus. Get Stephen Paea, even if that means trading back up into the first to grab him at the expense of both 2nd rounders.

Sign a quality FA corner to compete with Goodman. Lito Sheppard isn't a bad pick, he can play nickel too if he isn't the #2. Resign Champ.

Go get two of Aubrayo Franklin (SF), Cullen Jenkins (GB), Shaun Ellis (NYJ) or Trevor Pryce (NYJ).

Suddenly the 3-4 looks a whole lot better, you give Mays and Haggan a year for one of them to take over the SILB job, but find a late round project with some pass rush to develop and don't be afraid to draft it early in the next draft.

that would give us a tremendous defense practically overnight...i like that better than my plan...but there are a lot of moving pieces to it...are the DTs you mentioned near the end of your post all UFAs?...

misturanderson
01-12-2011, 03:51 PM
My personal preference?

Stick with the 3-4, try your damnedest to trade back from #2 to ~#5 to maximize value but either way you take Dareus. Get Stephen Paea, even if that means trading back up into the first to grab him at the expense of both 2nd rounders.

Sign a quality FA corner to compete with Goodman. Lito Sheppard isn't a bad pick, he can play nickel too if he isn't the #2. Resign Champ.

Go get two of Aubrayo Franklin (SF), Cullen Jenkins (GB), Shaun Ellis (NYJ) or Trevor Pryce (NYJ).

Suddenly the 3-4 looks a whole lot better, you give Mays and Haggan a year for one of them to take over the SILB job, but find a late round project with some pass rush to develop and don't be afraid to draft it early in the next draft.
I love this scenario, though I'm not sure I really care for the idea of bringing in Trevor Pryce. He's just way too old at this point.

I also am not totally sold on Paea as a 3-4 prospect. He is strong, but doesn't seem to have the bulk that the truly dominant NTs tend to have. Is that the position you see him playing in the 3-4?

Dedhed
01-12-2011, 03:59 PM
I'd like to see Fewell coach Doom.
Doom is fine.
I'd like to see him coach Thomas, Vickerson and McBean and see if he can get some production out of them.

cutthemdown
01-12-2011, 04:01 PM
Fox probably the best coach because he has a lot of experience building a staff and more connection to the NFL.

Going to change the stick with Studes to hire Fox I guess.

Dedhed
01-12-2011, 04:06 PM
I also am not totally sold on Paea as a 3-4 prospect. He is strong, but doesn't seem to have the bulk that the truly dominant NTs tend to have. Is that the position you see him playing in the 3-4?
I think Paea has the versatility to play anywhere in a 3 man front. He isn't the space eater you look for at NT, but has more than enough strength to hold up in that position on passing downs. He's similar to Bannan in that way, but far more explosive.

I think Bannan and Paea at DE around Aubrayo Franklin on early downs would be beastly. A guy like Paea would give us a lot of versatility, but we'd have to figure a way to get a 2nd pick in the first round.

PRBronco
01-12-2011, 04:10 PM
I think Paea has the versatility to play anywhere in a 3 man front. He isn't the space eater you look for at NT, but has more than enough strength to hold up in that position on passing downs. He's similar to Bannan in that way, but far more explosive.

I think Bannan and Paea at DE around Aubrayo Franklin on early downs would be beastly. A guy like Paea would give us a lot of versatility, but we'd have to figure a way to get a 2nd pick in the first round.

Man I hope Franklin makes it to FA. Even if we go with a 4 man front, back the money truck up to his yard and just keep dumping until his agent says stop.

misturanderson
01-12-2011, 04:21 PM
I think Paea has the versatility to play anywhere in a 3 man front. He isn't the space eater you look for at NT, but has more than enough strength to hold up in that position on passing downs. He's similar to Bannan in that way, but far more explosive.

I think Bannan and Paea at DE around Aubrayo Franklin on early downs would be beastly. A guy like Paea would give us a lot of versatility, but we'd have to figure a way to get a 2nd pick in the first round.

Dareus would be far more valuable as a DE in the 3-4 if that's where Paea would end up playing most of the time. In which case why not keep the 2 2nds? If Paea isn't going to be a dominant NT in the 3-4 I feel like we could use our picks more wisely.

Now if we were to move to a 4-3 I would love to see Fairley/Dareus picked up with #2 and then trade up for Paea. That would make for a beastly interior defensive line.

Dedhed
01-12-2011, 04:39 PM
Dareus would be far more valuable as a DE in the 3-4 if that's where Paea would end up playing most of the time. In which case why not keep the 2 2nds? If Paea isn't going to be a dominant NT in the 3-4 I feel like we could use our picks more wisely.

Now if we were to move to a 4-3 I would love to see Fairley/Dareus picked up with #2 and then trade up for Paea. That would make for a beastly interior defensive line.I don't think Paea is ever going to be Haloti Ngata, his frame is just too athletic, but I think he can still be great in a 3-4.

If we could trade back into a position and find a way to get Dareus and Paea in the first, I would come down off my Peterson soap box.

Then take Raheem Moore, and maybe Jimmy Smith in the 2nd. Casey MAtthews in the 3rd, and we'd be on our way.

misturanderson
01-12-2011, 04:51 PM
I don't think Paea is ever going to be Haloti Ngata, his frame is just too athletic, but I think he can still be great in a 3-4.

If we could trade back into a position and find a way to get Dareus and Paea in the first, I would come down off my Peterson soap box.

Then take Raheem Moore, and maybe Jimmy Smith in the 2nd. Casey MAtthews in the 3rd, and we'd be on our way.

That would be an amazing draft. Which of course means there's no way it actually happens even if it's possible.

Drek
01-12-2011, 04:52 PM
that would give us a tremendous defense practically overnight...i like that better than my plan...but there are a lot of moving pieces to it...are the DTs you mentioned near the end of your post all UFAs?...

Yes they are, assuming none are tagged. I can't see Ellis or Pryce being worth a tag to the Jets and Franklin would then be tagged in back to back years, thats a big pay jump over the $7M he just made, so also very unlikely. Green Bay is good at keeping their DL talent in house (see the extension they got Ryan Pickett on last year) so Jenkins is the long shot of the group.

I love this scenario, though I'm not sure I really care for the idea of bringing in Trevor Pryce. He's just way too old at this point.

I also am not totally sold on Paea as a 3-4 prospect. He is strong, but doesn't seem to have the bulk that the truly dominant NTs tend to have. Is that the position you see him playing in the 3-4?

Paea has the natural unyielding power to hold up at NT just fine. He's listed on NFLdraftscout.com as being 6'1", 312. Casey Hampton was 6'1", 314 when he came out of school and Vince Wilfork was 6'1", 323. Not that big of a difference.

The monsterous 340+ NTs burn out quick and lack the lateral mobility to really take over the middle. A laterally agile, freakishly strong guy like Paea is more likely to come in and be a long term NT we can build a defensive line around for years to come.

Pryce, like the rest of the guys I suggested, are actually just short term solutions while the young DL comes of age.

In my ideal scenario you sign Franklin and Ellis or Pryce along with drafting Dareus and Paea. Dareus is an every down guy at one DE spot. Paea splits snaps with Franklin at NT, with Paea seeing the majority of 3rd down work. Ellis or Pryce and Bannan rotate at the other DE spot and spell Dareus and the NTs as needed, with Vickerson as your first guy in due to injury.

After a year of that Ellis or Pryce is out and Bannan should be rotating with Vickerson. Paea takes more snaps away from Franklin in the middle.

By year two or three you're cutting bait on the then 32 or 33 year old Franklin with Paea taking over completely at NT, already having drafted a mid-rounder to develop as his new backup. Vickerson should be ready to take over the DE spot opposite Dareus in a more full time capacity and you will have already drafted some mid round developmental guys to rotate with him and eventually take his place when we find a diamond in the rough.

About four years down the road, five max, you use at least one or two 1st/2nd round quality picks to select another 3-4 DE type in case Dareus is not worth his next big contract coming after year six. If he is then great, you pair the three high picks up and watch the DL dominate. If not we've already got a young guy being groomed to replace him.

Repeat this cycle ad infinitum and never worry about the DL again.

FYI, this is what the Steelers do. When's the last time you heard their fans complain about a ****ty DL? Other than Hampton and Hood (still developing) how many times have you seen them draft DL in the first round?

We've got to build the base, install the package, then draft towards that package every year without fail. Only then will this DL problem go away.

Dedhed
01-12-2011, 04:56 PM
That would be an amazing draft. Which of course means there's no way it actually happens even if it's possible.

I know, but I get giddy thinking about it. And I do think it's a possibility. Trading back from #2 (but staying in the top 10) and trading Orton would certainly give us the ammo to get back into the 1st round to target Paea.

If we're going with a 3-4 (which I really hope we do), and we're not smitten with Peterson, Dareus is the guy to go after, IMO. But there's no way I would take him at #2.

Taco John
01-12-2011, 05:43 PM
Probably too early too tell, but if we get a strong character no nonsense type coach and DC, I would like for us to deal with Washington somehow to land Haynesworth.

If someone can get in his head and straighten him up he would be a good addition, plus we know the skins could use Orton.


http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/5033/shaniqua.jpg

cutthemdown
01-12-2011, 05:48 PM
It's almost time for a dream draft thread.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
01-12-2011, 11:07 PM
I thought this would be fun. Fewell or Fox are named the head coach and announce we will be switching to the 4-3 defense.

Heres what I need you to do take this roster below and through a realistic draft using our 4 first picks #2, #36, #46, #67 or realistic FA pick ups to make it better. I did not put Champ on there because his future is not clear, but you can add him if you want to resign him.

Now you must fix it. Heres the roster pre-draft and pre-FA you have to work with good luck lol.

LDE - Robert Ayers (switches inside to DT on passing downs Jason Hunter comes in at LDE)
RDE - Elvis Dumervil
DT - Justin Bannan
DT -Marcus Thomas
ROLB - DJ Williams
MLB - Joe Mays
L0LB - Mario Haggan

FS - Brian Dawkins
SS - Renaldo Hill (or Darcel McBath)
LCB - Andre Goodman
RCB - Perrish Cox
Nickle -Sydquan Thompson


KEY:
ORANGE = Pro Bowl Player, or future pro bowl player
BLUE = Automatic Starter solid vet or young and flashes but should start
GREEN = Serviceable/Borderline Starter, draft a future replacement tho or upgrade via FA
RED = Default Starter might be unproven, might be aging or just doesn't fit great for the scheme, draft or FA a replacement

LDE: Robert Aryes, Jason Hunter
LDT: Jamal Williams, Ronnie Fields
RDT: #2 pick, Marcus Thomas
RDE: Doooooom, #36 pick

Will: Woodyard, Mays
Mike: Dj, #46
Sam: Mario Haggan, Dj, 3rd rookie

LCB: Goodman,
FS: Champ
SS: Dawkins
LCB: FA, Cox

BowlenBall
01-13-2011, 01:05 AM
Hmmm... I think we're probably better off, personnel-wise, sticking with a 3-4 defense at this point, but I would completely understand if the front office wants to blow it all up and start over with a 4-3. So, if I'm the GM....

First of all, we need to be trading out of this spot, if at all possible. I'm going to project two trades, in both of which I'm giving up trade chart points for the sake of making them a bit more plausible:

1) Broncos trade #2 to the Washington Redskins for #10 and #41. Redskins select QB Jake Locker.
2) Broncos trade #10 to the New England Patriots for picks #17, #64 and #201. Patriots select Prince Amukamara, who they have as the best player on their board.

With those additional selections, here're my picks:

#17 - DT Stephen Paea, Oregon State
#36 - DT Corey Liuget, Illinois
#41 - DE Alan Bailey, Miami
#46 - SS Robert Sands, West Virginia
#64 - CB Jimmy Smith, Colorado
#67 - ILB Greg Jones, Michigan State

That'll leave us with the following 4-3 depth chart for 2011:

LDE - Robert Ayers / Elvis Dumerville*
DT - Stephen Paea / Justin Bannon
DT - Jamal Williams / Corey Liuget
RDE - Alan Bailey / Elvis Dumerville*
WLB - DJ Williams / Wesley Woodyard
ILB -Greg Jones / Joe Mays
SLB - Mario Haggan / Elvis Dumerville*
CB - Jimmy Smith / Perrish Cox
CB - Andre Goodman / Nate Jones
FS - Champ Bailey (makes the move to safety, gives us 3 more pro bowl years) / Darcell McBath
SS - Robert Sands / David Bruton

* Dumerville used extensively at all three positions, a la Karl Mecklenburg.

Looking at the depth chart -- we're deep but weak at cornerback (with Squid and Vaughn as our 5th and 6th cornerbacks), and our DE/DT depth is still a concern. But Rome wasn't built in a day, and we'll probably have to go defense-heavy in 2012 as well just to get our D up to snuff.