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pricejj
01-08-2011, 03:30 PM
And what does that have to do with the #2 offense in yards being ranked only #10 in points?

Dedhed, look at my post above listing the OL from 2008 man! That should explain it to you! Geesh :)
Do you agree?

baja
01-08-2011, 03:32 PM
I get it. Since he was a yes man in our organization he will say yes to his coordinators instead of telling them what to do. Eventhough I dislike him that theory moves me closer to fence that is if he only came with awesome coordinators.

Not a "yes" man that would be disastrous.

A good manager is someone that finds good people and finds a way to bring the best out of them once they are on the team. It's what I was hoping Josh was going to do but it turned out to be his weakest point.


Hell it's what I was hoping Obama would do too but looks like he dropped the ball too. Actually Obama is an example of a "yes" man and he has the most powerful job in the world, go figure.

TheProfessor
01-08-2011, 04:46 PM
How do we know this? He's been a terrible special teams coach and a good oline coach. How does that make him qualified to lead an enite football team? As far as the other traits you mentioned, there are plenty of failed coaches throughout history with the exact traits you described.

Yep, good oline coach who, in his entire career, has never even been given the keys to the the entire offense, and your ready to hand over the entire team?

Mark Schlereth is the definition of a sports analyst who would have much better inroads to a team with a HC he knows and has played for. Didn't Schlereth also say recently that he would like to return to coaching? I'm not going as far as to say that Schlereth has an agenda... but I kind of am.

This could be good thing, or it could be a bad thing. I'm not sure how I feel about this inexperinced front office having a in inexperienced buddy as their head coach. I'd prefer someone to have done all this before and maybe have some pointers and friendly conflicts with the FO.

I'm not against the interview. Bring him in. I just hope that if he's hired it's becasue he's actually the best man for the job and not just a nostalgic comfort hire by Elway.

I understand why people are fearful of some nostalgia tour, but I don't see it this way. Anytime I have looked at a new venture or project I always lean on my network of people I have developed over the years. It's not because I'm getting sentimental in my old age it's because I know who is good and who is full of it. I know who I can and can not work with and who doesn't the temperment or skill set for the particular project I'm considering. I see this as a the begining of a good thourough search.

We need to let this play out a little. I think they are looking for a particular type of HC, and I don't think it is going to be a glorified Offensive or Defensive Coordinator. I think they are looking for a calm and steady face of the franchise type who is going to have to face some significant headwinds over the next couple of seasons.

OrangeSe7en
01-08-2011, 05:04 PM
We're talking about the 2008 Broncos genius.

We're in the Dennison for head coach thread, genius. You said it was outdated genius, and Houston's offense this year disproves your garbage, genius.

elsid13
01-08-2011, 05:05 PM
We're in the Dennison for head coach thread, genius. You said it was outdated genius, and Houston's offense this year disproves your garbage, genius.

actually Green Bay that runs almost the exact WCO/ZBS system disproves the fact that the system is outdated.

OrangeSe7en
01-08-2011, 05:10 PM
actually Green Bay that runs almost the exact WCO/ZBS system disproves the fact that the system is outdated.

Perhaps but the term Shanahan/Kubiak system was used and even that is not true.

Dedhed
01-08-2011, 05:10 PM
We're in the Dennison for head coach thread, genius. You said it was outdated genius, and Houston's offense this year disproves your garbage, genius.

Only in your own mind.

OrangeSe7en
01-08-2011, 05:12 PM
Only in your own mind.

No, unlike you, I've provided empirical data that disproves your garbage. Face it. This is all about you talking about something you know nothing about and, when being called on it, it's too hard for you to admit you're wrong.

baja
01-08-2011, 05:13 PM
Why is it a given Dennison would run the WCO

Dedhed
01-08-2011, 05:13 PM
Dedhed, look at my post above listing the OL from 2008 man! That should explain it to you! Geesh :)
Do you agree?

I agree that the personnel required to run the ZBS/shanahan/kubes system leads to inefficiency in the Red Zone and a lack of scoring, among other things.

I disagree that 2008 was the only year in which that was the case.

pricejj
01-08-2011, 05:23 PM
I agree that the personnel required to run the ZBS/shanahan/kubes system leads to inefficiency in the Red Zone and a lack of scoring, among other things.

I disagree that 2008 was the only year in which that was the case.

NFL Offense Total Touchdowns 2008
Rank Team
1 San Diego Chargers
2 New York Jets
3 Indianapolis Colts
4 New England Patriots
5 Baltimore Ravens
5 Denver Broncos

In 2008 the Broncos were 6th in overall scoring, and 5th in total offensive touchdowns...

Dedhed
01-08-2011, 05:26 PM
No, unlike you, I've provided empirical data that disproves your garbage. Face it. This is all about you talking about something you know nothing about and, when being called on it, it's too hard for you to admit you're wrong.

You've shown a single year in which there was only a moderate, rather than a stark, disparity between yards and scoring. That hardly proves anything.

I know for a fact that Broncos teams under Shanahan struggled in the red zone for a decade, were terrible playing from behind, were terrible against he more physical NFL teams, and wore down as games and as the season went on. All things that can be pinned on the personnel required to run that system being ill suited to hold up in those situations.

I know for a fact that no team running that system has won a SB in the 21st century. You've hardly shown anything to even approach disproving those arguments.

OrangeSe7en
01-08-2011, 05:28 PM
You've shown a single year in which there was only a moderate, rather than a stark, disparity between yards and scoring. That hardly proves anything.

I know for a fact that Broncos teams under Shanahan struggled in the red zone for a decade, were terrible playing from behind, were terrible against he more physical NFL teams, and wore down as games and as the season went on. All things that can be pinned on the personnel required to run that system being ill suited to hold up in those situations.

I know for a fact that no team running that system has won a SB in the 21st century. You've hardly shown anything to even approach disproving those arguments.

You're the one that said it's dated. That puts an emphasis on current data. And, again, you couldn't have been more wrong.

Dedhed
01-08-2011, 05:34 PM
In 2008 the Broncos were 6th in overall scoring, and 5th in total offensive touchdowns...And were #2 in yards. What part of disparity are you guys failing to understand?

The ZBS is fine in space, and wen there's an equal likelihood of run/pass. In short yardage, or situations where there is a high pass probability, the OL is going to be killed.

Dedhed
01-08-2011, 05:37 PM
You're the one that said it's dated. That puts an emphasis on current data. And, again, you couldn't have been more wrong.Actually, it puts the emphasis on current data as compared to older data.
Look at the trend of Denver's offense from 2000-2008.

OrangeSe7en
01-08-2011, 05:41 PM
Actually, it puts the emphasis on current data as compared to older data.
Look at the trend of Denver's offense from 2000-2008.

No, looking at this year is enough. You said it was dated. Current data alone disproves that. End of story.

pricejj
01-08-2011, 05:41 PM
Broncos Yearly Total Offensive Touchdowns NFL Rank

2008 - Broncos - #5
2007 - Broncos - #9
2006 - Broncos - #11
2005 - Broncos - #4
2004 - Broncos - #6
2003 - Broncos - #4
2002 - Broncos - #3
2001 - Broncos - #7
2000 - Broncos - #1
1999 - Broncos - #12
1998 - Broncos - #1
1997 - Broncos - #1
1996 - Broncos - #2
1995 - Broncos - #3

Whoah!!! I had no idea how awesome Shanahan's system was at scoring touchdown's.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
01-08-2011, 05:50 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Dennison

There has been talk about Dennison being medicore at best while he coached with us.
Here are some facts:

Special teams from 1997 to 2000:

1997:
Punt Return Player Returns FC Yds/Ret Long TD

Darrien Gordon 40 22 13.6 94 3
Rod Smith 1 0 12.0 12 0
TOTAL 41 22 13.5 94 3

Kick Returns Player Returns Yds Yds/Ret Long TD

Vaughn Hebron 43 1,009 23.5 46 0
Derek Loville 5 136 27.2 61 0
Keith Burns 4 45 11.3 18 0
Byron Chamberlain 1 13 13.0 13 0
Detron Smith 1 0 0.0 0 0
TOTAL 54 1,203 22.3 61 0

1998:
Punt Return Player Returns FC Yds/Ret Long TD

Darrien Gordon 34 6 11.1 44 0
George Coghill 3 2 6.7 8 0
Tito Paul 1 0 0.0 0 0
TOTAL 38 8 10.5 44 0
Kick Returns Player Returns Yds Yds/Ret Long TD

Vaughn Hebron 46 1,216 26.4 95 1
Derek Loville 6 105 17.5 25 0
Detron Smith 3 51 17.0 21 0
Keith Burns 2 17 8.5 17 0
Maa Tanuvasa 1 13 13.0 13 0
TOTAL 58 1,402 24.2 95 1

1999:
Punt Return Player Returns FC Yds/Ret Long TD

Chris Watson 44 8 7.6 81 1
Travis McGriff 7 1 7.1 20 0
George Coghill 3 1 8.3 10 0
TOTAL 54 10 7.6 81 1
Kick Returns Player Returns Yds Yds/Ret Long TD

Chris Watson 48 1,138 23.7 71 0
John Avery 7 137 19.6 25 0
Billy Miller 4 79 19.8 30 0
Derek Loville 2 22 11.0 12 0
Detron Smith 1 12 12.0 11 0
Rod Smith 1 10 10.0 10 0
TOTAL 63 1,398 22.2 71 0

2000:
Punt Return Player Returns FC Yds/Ret Long TD

Deltha O'Neal 34 11 10.4 64 0
Terrell Buckley 2 1 5.0 11 0
TOTAL 36 12 10.1 64 0

Kick Returns Player Returns Yds Yds/Ret Long TD

Deltha O'Neal 46 1,102 24.0 87 1
Chris Cole 11 264 24.0 37 0
Detron Smith 5 73 14.6 17 0
Byron Chamberlain 2 25 12.5 13 0
Dwayne Carswell 1 0 0.0 0 0
Billy Miller 1 13 13.0 13 0
TOTAL 66 1,477 22.4 87 1

Offensive line from 2001 to 2005:

2001:
RUSHING (PLAYS-AVERAGE YARDS) 481-3.9
SACKS 42.0

2002:
RUSHING (PLAYS-AVERAGE YARDS) 457-5
SACKS 46.0

2003:
RUSHING (PLAYS-AVERAGE YARDS) 543-4.8
SACKS 25.0

2004:
RUSHING (PLAYS-AVERAGE YARDS) 534-4.4
SACKS 15.0

2005:
RUSHING (PLAYS-AVERAGE YARDS) 542-4.7
SACKS 23.0

Offensive coordinator 2006 and 2008
You can look at those at denverbroncos.com.

pricejj
01-08-2011, 05:53 PM
Yearly Broncos Total Offensive Scoring NFL Rank

McDaniels -
2010 - Broncos - #12
2009 - Broncos - #10

Shanahan -
2008 - Broncos - #7
2007 - Broncos - #9
2006 - Broncos - #10
2005 - Broncos - #5
2004 - Broncos - #6
2003 - Broncos - #5
2002 - Broncos - #3
2001 - Broncos - #6
2000 - Broncos - #1

ZBS wasn't so bad eh?

Dedhed
01-08-2011, 06:04 PM
No, looking at this year is enough.
I guess if you're extremely short-sighted and willing to pin the future of a franchise on an aberration, one year is enough.

Dedhed
01-08-2011, 06:09 PM
Shanahan -
2008 - Broncos - #7
2007 - Broncos - #9
2006 - Broncos - #10
2005 - Broncos - #5
2004 - Broncos - #6
2003 - Broncos - #5
2002 - Broncos - #3
2001 - Broncos - #6
2000 - Broncos - #1

ZBS wasn't so bad eh?
Graph that and see if you see a trend in success rate.
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UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
01-08-2011, 06:28 PM
Graph that and see if you see a trend in success rate.
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Graph should look more like this.

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And lets not forget that 2007-2008 where years of RBC.

Dedhed
01-08-2011, 06:32 PM
Graph should look more like this.

.......
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And lets not forget that 2007-2008 where years of RBC.
The trend is the same.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
01-08-2011, 06:41 PM
The trend is the same.

Hmmmm. Yeah...

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But whatever.

Dedhed
01-08-2011, 06:56 PM
Hmmmm. Yeah...

_______
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But whatever.There's not a lot of whatever about it.

Despite investing relatively heavily in talent on that side of the ball the, the performance has yielded diminishing results.

That's exactly the opposite of how things worked in the 90s where we were able to run the scheme with players who no one else wanted and got great results because it was a novel attack that DCs hadn't figured out yet.

gunns
01-08-2011, 06:56 PM
Without a defense, the system means little.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
01-08-2011, 06:58 PM
Without a defense, the system means little.

Thank you!!!

Dedhed
01-08-2011, 06:59 PM
Without a defense, the system means little.

That's certainly true.

oubronco
01-08-2011, 07:04 PM
Broncos Yearly Total Offensive Touchdowns NFL Rank

2008 - Broncos - #5
2007 - Broncos - #9
2006 - Broncos - #11
2005 - Broncos - #4
2004 - Broncos - #6
2003 - Broncos - #4
2002 - Broncos - #3
2001 - Broncos - #7
2000 - Broncos - #1
1999 - Broncos - #12
1998 - Broncos - #1
1997 - Broncos - #1
1996 - Broncos - #2
1995 - Broncos - #3

Whoah!!! I had no idea how awesome Shanahan's system was at scoring touchdown's.

No shyt

TomServo
01-09-2011, 01:45 AM
anyone. ANYONE but McD. we kinda sucked with shanny. we Sucked hard with McD. middle of the nfl with shanny. bottom of 32 teams with Mcd. anyone who wanted a third year with McD must be an idiot. lesse 8-8 from 8-8 after a 6-0 start. 3 wins w/ he was fired. and you wanted him back to finish the job? wade phillips did better and got fired. Mcd nut huggers are such a mystery to me.

pricejj
01-09-2011, 08:13 PM
Despite investing relatively heavily in talent on that side of the ball the, the performance has yielded diminishing results.

That's exactly the opposite of how things worked in the 90s where we were able to run the scheme with players who no one else wanted and got great results because it was a novel attack that DCs hadn't figured out yet.

Players no one else wanted Dedhed?

Gary Zimmerman - 7-time Probowler
Tom Nalen - 5-time Probowler
Tony Jones - 1-time Probowler
Mark Schlereth - 1-time Probowler

The ONLY offensive lineman drafted by the Broncos in in the first 2 rounds of the draft during Mike Shanahan's era (1995-2008), were:

1. George Foster - 2003 - OT - 1st round - Injured his senior year of college, and had limited movement in his wrist. Bad draft pick, bust.
2. Ryan Clady - 2008 - OT - 1st round - starter for the Broncos, probowler

Not what I would call "investing heavily" in the OL.

There have been 5 players selected in the first 2 rounds of the draft by the New England Patriots since 2000. 3 of those players are currently starting on the New England OL.

~Crash~
01-09-2011, 08:46 PM
I never got the fascination with Dennison. I thought he absolutely SUCKED as special teams coach, rode Gibbs coattails with the OL and then schmoozed down to Houston with Kubiak and became OC of an already talented offense which was basically Kube's offense. This would be as bad as Fossil - almost.

and last year ?:~ohyah!:

pricejj
01-09-2011, 08:50 PM
Without a defense, the system means little.

There has been even less invested along the Defensive Line in high draft picks:

Denver Broncos Draft Picks DL in Round 1 and 2 since 2000 (including McDaniels):

1. Jarvis Moss - 2007 - 1st - reach, bust
2. Tim Crowder - 2007 - 2nd - reach, bust
3. Paul Toviessi - 2001 - 2nd - reach, bust

The New England Patriots have invested in 6 DL picks in round 1 and 2 since 2000, producing 2 probowlers (Wilfork, Seymour), and 3 current starters (Wilfork, Warren (IR), Brace (IR)). Gerard Warren, currently starting at LE was also a former 1st round pick.

Dedhed
01-09-2011, 08:51 PM
Players no one else wanted Dedhed?

Gary Zimmerman - 7-time Probowler
Tom Nalen - 5-time Probowler
Tony Jones - 1-time Probowler
Mark Schlereth - 1-time Probowler

The ONLY offensive lineman drafted by the Broncos in in the first 2 rounds of the draft during Mike Shanahan's era (1995-2008), were:

1. George Foster - 2003 - OT - 1st round - Injured his senior year of college, and had limited movement in his wrist. Bad draft pick, bust.
2. Ryan Clady - 2008 - OT - 1st round - starter for the Broncos, probowler

Not what I would call "investing heavily" in the OL.

You just supported my take, whether you know it or not.

And I was referring to the entire offense when I said "investment" not just OL.

pricejj
01-09-2011, 09:10 PM
You just supported my take, whether you know it or not.
.

The ZBS system is NOT the problem. Let's see what else Dennison can bring to the table.

OrangeSe7en
01-09-2011, 09:12 PM
The ZBS system is NOT the problem. Let's see what else Dennison can bring to the table.

Dude, dont even get him going. You can throw any amount of data in his face and he'll stick to his baseless claims until you get bored with him.

You might want to save your energy for someone who has a little more going on upstairs too.

Dedhed
01-09-2011, 09:19 PM
The ZBS system is NOT the problem. Let's see what else Dennison can bring to the table.

Why hasn't it won a SB in the 21st century?

Dedhed
01-09-2011, 09:21 PM
Dude, dont even get him going. You can throw any amount of data in his face and he'll stick to his baseless claims until you get bored with him.

You might want to save your energy for someone who has a little more going on upstairs too.
Ah, yes, the man who can't answer a simple question. I'm still waiting, btw, for an adequate answer.

There's a new simple question above if you want to tackle that one as well. I'm doubtful though.

Tim
01-09-2011, 09:29 PM
Why hasn't it won a SB in the 21st century?

2007 Colts

Dedhed
01-09-2011, 09:37 PM
2007 Colts

The Colts run a combo of ZBS and Man like most teams, and have been trying to move to a more predominant PBS scheme because their OL struggles against playoff defenses. You saw it again yesterday.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
01-09-2011, 09:55 PM
Why hasn't it won a SB in the 21st century?

Are you really asking that question? It's been the defense, defense, defense. The one time we won in the playoffs was because we actully had a good defense for one year. The problem was never ever the offense.

2KBack
01-10-2011, 06:44 AM
2007 Colts

Actually it was the 2006 Colts that won the superbowl, Who used a combination of ZBS to set the league on fire with the 18th ranked rushing attack. I do believe they were also the worst defense to win a superbowl this century...that's who we should be aspiring to, the statistical anomaly