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TheReverend
01-06-2011, 12:51 PM
In comparison to a veteran QB in his second year in the offensive system:

Orton 55/170 on 3rd down (32%)
Tebow 12/37 on 3rd down (32%)

Orton 7.3 ypa
Tebow 8.0 ypa

Offense under Orton 20.7 ppg
Offense under Tebow 25 ppg (Over a 20% improvement)

Orton ypg 288.5 (269.8 counting sack yardage)
Tebow ypg 293.7 (285 counting sack yardage)

Turnovers:
Orton turned the ball over 13 times in 532 drop backs (2.5%)
Tebow turned the ball over 3 times in 88 drop backs (3.4%)

Orton's scoring to TO ratio is 20:13 or 1.54
Tebow's scoring to TO ratio is 11:3 or 3.7 and 7:3 as a starter or 2.3

Average defensive rank faced:
Orton 17
Tebow 14

Average pass d rank faced:
Orton 17
Tebow 12

I imagine there's no need to mention that he was a rookie with an interim headcoach.

Broncos4tw
01-06-2011, 12:58 PM
While I don't disagree that Tebow is a better QB than Orton (who I feel is at best, very very average) - I don't think you can really determine anything by two games. I'd say perhaps.. a full season of games might give us a better idea. That data set is so small as to be nearly worthless.

Liquid Courage
01-06-2011, 12:58 PM
hopefully this bodes well for our future. i'd imagine next year Ds will gameplan for him in a more effective way once they get more and more tape on him; hopefully he will be able to counter . .

gyldenlove
01-06-2011, 12:59 PM
There are some remarkable numbers on Tebow this year:

He had 1 or more rushing attempts in 7 games, he scored a rushing TD in 6 games.

He had 1 or more pass attempts in 4 games, he scored at least 1 passing TD all 4.

He has touched the ball in 7 games and in 6 of those games he has more TDs than turnovers, he had no TDs and no turnovers in the last.

He is 2nd in the league in rushing TDs among QBs and 7th in rushing yards.

Beantown Bronco
01-06-2011, 01:02 PM
He has touched the ball in 7 games and in 6 of those games he has more TDs than turnovers, he had no TDs and no turnovers in the last.

I beg to differ.

LRtagger
01-06-2011, 01:03 PM
You also have to consider defense, ST, and the running game was better at the end of the year.

Anyways I don't understand why you would want to prove that Tebow played better. It is quite clear the Broncos are ready to move forward with Tebow, so continuing a QB debate is pointless. Orton is an afterthought right now aside from the discussions on what value he holds in a trade.

Dr. Broncenstein
01-06-2011, 01:04 PM
Requesting red zone production stats.

jhns
01-06-2011, 01:06 PM
It is very clear that Tebow outplayed Orton. He really did earn the chance at starting next season. I don't get people that think this would make a coach not want to come here. If Tebow improves at all he will make any coaches job easy.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-06-2011, 01:07 PM
Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

TheReverend
01-06-2011, 01:11 PM
Requesting red zone production stats.

Good call. I tried to be impartial as possible by including TO numbers where Orton beats him in one category.

Red zone (including QB rating for full impartiality):

Orton 67 attempts, 13 TDs, 0 INTs, 91.5 rating
Tebow 10 attempts, 3 TDs, 1 INT, 39.6 rating

That being said... Tim does have another 6 red zone rushing TDs

Play2win
01-06-2011, 01:11 PM
And 3rd down conversion rate, including (Tebow) rushing. It seemed Tebow moved the chains... a lot... by whatever means necessary...

OABB
01-06-2011, 01:11 PM
Also would love to see tebows 4th quarter stats compared to ortons....

Mr.Meanie
01-06-2011, 01:13 PM
Good call. I tried to be impartial as possible by including TO numbers where Orton beats him in one category.

Red zone (including QB rating for full impartiality):

Orton 67 attempts, 13 TDs, 0 INTs, 91.5 rating
Tebow 10 attempts, 3 TDs, 1 INT, 39.6 rating

That being said... Tim does have another 6 red zone rushing TDs

Weren't most of those after Orton drove the field and they put Tebow in on jumbo goalline packages for 1 yard TD runs?

In any case, I am excited for next year and I'm looking forward to a full offseason of development with the new coaching staff.

Beantown Bronco
01-06-2011, 01:13 PM
Good call. I tried to be impartial as possible by including TO numbers where Orton beats him in one category.

Red zone (including QB rating for full impartiality):

Orton 67 attempts, 13 TDs, 0 INTs, 91.5 rating
Tebow 10 attempts, 3 TDs, 1 INT, 39.6 rating

That being said... Tim does have another 6 red zone rushing TDs

That's one good thing about Orton IMO. If I'm not mistaken, he's literally only thrown ONE redzone INT in his entire NFL career. I'm pretty sure I remember seeing the stat at the beginning of this season, and it's held up.

Dedhed
01-06-2011, 01:15 PM
hopefully this bodes well for our future. i'd imagine next year Ds will gameplan for him in a more effective way once they get more and more tape on him; hopefully he will be able to counter . .

I think this bodes well for the rest of the players on offense. It was noticeable to me that the LBs were far less active versus Tebow than they were against Orton because they have to be in a read/react mode to account for Tebows legs.

A receiving TE who can exploit that will be a great addition to this team. I liked Woody's suggestion of going after Bo Scaife in FA.

One thing is for sure; Tebow is a QB that forces DCs to account for him on every play.

bloodsunday
01-06-2011, 01:17 PM
Well, at least with Tebow starting our odds at having a shot at Luck next year improve greatly :)

SonOfLe-loLang
01-06-2011, 01:17 PM
I beg to differ.

I believe he was talking about the odd game out of the 7...not the actual last game he played

Dedhed
01-06-2011, 01:18 PM
That's one good thing about Orton IMO. If I'm not mistaken, he's literally only thrown ONE redzone INT in his entire NFL career. I'm pretty sure I remember seeing the stat at the beginning of this season, and it's held up.

I guess it's easy to not make a mistake if you never try.

TheReverend
01-06-2011, 01:18 PM
That's one good thing about Orton IMO. If I'm not mistaken, he's literally only thrown ONE redzone INT in his entire NFL career. I'm pretty sure I remember seeing the stat at the beginning of this season, and it's held up.

You are mistaken but your point is 100% accurate. He's had 3 in his NFL career. 09, 08 and another his rookie season. It's very impressive, imo.

jhns
01-06-2011, 01:20 PM
Good call. I tried to be impartial as possible by including TO numbers where Orton beats him in one category.

Red zone (including QB rating for full impartiality):

Orton 67 attempts, 13 TDs, 0 INTs, 91.5 rating
Tebow 10 attempts, 3 TDs, 1 INT, 39.6 rating

That being said... Tim does have another 6 red zone rushing TDs

I don't know where you would find it but I am curious what the red zone scoring percentage for the team was for each. It seemed like we scored pretty much every time Tebow had the ball in the red zone.

TheReverend
01-06-2011, 01:20 PM
Weren't most of those after Orton drove the field and they put Tebow in on jumbo goalline packages for 1 yard TD runs?

In any case, I am excited for next year and I'm looking forward to a full offseason of development with the new coaching staff.

No.

bloodsunday
01-06-2011, 01:20 PM
Anyways I don't understand why you would want to prove that Tebow played better. It is quite clear the Broncos are ready to move forward with Tebow, so continuing a QB debate is pointless. Orton is an afterthought right now aside from the discussions on what value he holds in a trade.

People want to feel justified that it's the right choice and we aren't embarking on a rebuilding project.

I will concede most of your point (the parts about them moving forward with Tebow and the debate being pointless), BUT shouldn't there be some question about how much value Orton has a backup considering how little we'll get in a trade?

Tebow will get hurt at some point next year and then we are going to turn to Brady Quinn?

Beantown Bronco
01-06-2011, 01:20 PM
I guess it's easy to not make a mistake if you never try.

Please. We're talking about over 200 career redzone passes with only one pick. You can think what you want, but that's impressive.

[Make that 3 - I'll believe Rev's figure]

Dedhed
01-06-2011, 01:21 PM
Well, at least with Tebow starting our odds at having a shot at Luck next year improve greatly :)

Loser.

Dedhed
01-06-2011, 01:22 PM
Please. We're talking about over 200 career redzone passes with only one pick. You can think what you want, but that's impressive.

My point was that he never tried to make a play. It would be impressive if he also put the ball in the end zone. He didn't, so it's not.

bloodsunday
01-06-2011, 01:23 PM
One other overlooked but difficult to quantify thing, Tebow only played 3 games a starter. That could go both ways. Perhaps he improves on his mistakes and the small sample size we are currently dealing with goes up. Or perhaps, teams get a few games of him on tape and his efficiency/productivity goes down.

Remember we started 6 - 0 under McDaniels and once Baltimore put together a game plan on how to beat us... well you know the rest.

jhns
01-06-2011, 01:27 PM
My point was that he never tried to make a play. It would be impressive if he also put the ball in the end zone. He didn't, so it's not.

This. I highly doubt this teams red zone TD percentage was any good under Orton. I don't know though, that is just the feeling I got watching. Maybe he just hardly made it to the red zone in the first place.

Dedhed
01-06-2011, 01:30 PM
People want to feel justified that it's the right choice and we aren't embarking on a rebuilding project.Feel justified in what, exactly? And who doesn't believe we're rebuilding?

BUT shouldn't there be some question about how much value Orton has a backup considering how little we'll get in a trade?

Tebow will get hurt at some point next year and then we are going to turn to Brady Quinn?
Wow, can you PM me the winning lottery numbers. Clearly you have the ability to see the future if you know that Tebow is going to get injured and we aren't going to get anything of value for Orton.

Unless you're basing your entire argument on something entirely baseless.

TheReverend
01-06-2011, 01:31 PM
My point was that he never tried to make a play. It would be impressive if he also put the ball in the end zone. He didn't, so it's not.

Not true.

http://i28.tinypic.com/rvvwy8.jpg

8')

Dedhed
01-06-2011, 01:32 PM
Not true.

http://i28.tinypic.com/rvvwy8.jpg

8')
Oh yeah
:notworthy

bloodsunday
01-06-2011, 01:36 PM
Feel justified in what, exactly? And who doesn't believe we're rebuilding?
Feel justified in tossing aside a decent QB like Orton and turning to a "very raw" (Elway's words) rookie. We don't HAVE to rebuild. Miami went from 1 - 15 to the playoffs. Atlanta went from the Mike Vick/Bobby Petrino disaster to the playoffs. It can happen. But not when you toss aside your best players for the unknown. The key to avoiding rebuilding is to take what's good about your football team and building on it. Like it or not, Kyle Orton was 1 of the 10 best players on the 2010 Denver Broncos.

Wow, can you PM me the winning lottery numbers. Clearly you have the ability to see the future if you know that Tebow is going to get injured and we aren't going to get anything of value for Orton.

Unless you're basing your entire argument on something entirely baseless.
Tebow will get hurt if he continues to run the football 10 - 12 times a game. That's not baseless nor difficult to prognosticate. He's already been injured in one NFL game, remember? Taking on NFL safeties and linebackers is not a think a QB should be doing on a regular basis.

As for what we'll get for Orton? Well they are allegedly going to ask for a 2nd rounder. My guess is they won't get more than a 3rd or 4th. Given our track record of drafting that guy is unlikely to impact our roster in a more meaningful way than Orton could.

TheReverend
01-06-2011, 01:41 PM
Rushing:
Orton 90 ypg #30 in the NFL
Tebow 126 ypg #8 in the NFL

jhns
01-06-2011, 01:42 PM
Feel justified in tossing aside a decent QB like Orton and turning to a "very raw" (Elway's words) rookie. We don't HAVE to rebuild. Miami went from 1 - 15 to the playoffs. Atlanta went from the Mike Vick/Bobby Petrino disaster to the playoffs. It can happen. But not when you toss aside your best players for the unknown. The key to avoiding rebuilding is to take what's good about your football team and building on it. Like it or not, Kyle Orton was 1 of the 10 best players on the 2010 Denver Broncos.


Tebow will get hurt if he continues to run the football 10 - 12 times a game. That's not baseless nor difficult to prognosticate. He's already been injured in one NFL game, remember? Taking on NFL safeties and linebackers is not a think a QB should be doing on a regular basis.

As for what we'll get for Orton? Well they are allegedly going to ask for a 2nd rounder. My guess is they won't get more than a 3rd or 4th. Given our track record of drafting that guy is unlikely to impact our roster in a more meaningful way than Orton could.

Tebow outplayed Orton this year. If we don't need to rebuild with someone, why would it be the worse guy? Way to make sense.

Yeah, Orton can impact our roster by making sure we can't sign other key free agents because we are paying a backup 9 mil...

Kaylore
01-06-2011, 01:43 PM
Tebow and Orton could not be more opposite of each other.

Orton:

Accurate short and mid-ranged passer.
Less accurate deep passer (though is MUCH better this year.)
Sound fundamentals.
Very safe, low risk passer.
No athleticism. None.
Looks like that guy that would eat his scabs in the back row in fifth grade.
Neckbeard.
Goes down with a sack in a light breeze.


Tebow:

Inaccurate short to mid range passer.
Throws a great deep ball.
Fundamentals, schmundamentals.
High risk, high reward passer. Let's his receiver "go get it."
More athletic than many of the players on our defense.
Looks like a cross between a male model and a vampire hunter.
Awesome scruff beard.
Wouldn't go down in a sack if he was shot with an elephant gun.

BroncosMT
01-06-2011, 01:45 PM
Tebow and Orton could not be more opposite of each other.

Orton:

Accurate short and mid-ranged passer.
Less accurate deep passer (though is MUCH better this year.)
Sound fundamentals.
Very safe, low risk passer.
No athleticism. None.
Looks like that guy that would eat his scabs in the back row in fifth grade.
Neckbeard.
Goes down with a sack in a light breeze.


Tebow:

Inaccurate short to mid range passer.
Throws a great deep ball.
Fundamentals, schmundamentals.
High risk, high reward passer. Let's his receiver "go get it."
More athletic than many of the players on our defense.
Looks like a cross between a male model and a vampire hunter.
Awesome scruff beard.
Wouldn't go down in a sack if he was shot with an elephant gun.


You sure there is a breeze when Orton goes down?

TheReverend
01-06-2011, 01:47 PM
Feel justified in tossing aside a decent QB like Orton and turning to a "very raw" (Elway's words) rookie. We don't HAVE to rebuild. Miami went from 1 - 15 to the playoffs. Atlanta went from the Mike Vick/Bobby Petrino disaster to the playoffs. It can happen. But not when you toss aside your best players for the unknown. The key to avoiding rebuilding is to take what's good about your football team and building on it. Like it or not, Kyle Orton was 1 of the 10 best players on the 2010 Denver Broncos.


Tebow will get hurt if he continues to run the football 10 - 12 times a game. That's not baseless nor difficult to prognosticate. He's already been injured in one NFL game, remember? Taking on NFL safeties and linebackers is not a think a QB should be doing on a regular basis.

As for what we'll get for Orton? Well they are allegedly going to ask for a 2nd rounder. My guess is they won't get more than a 3rd or 4th. Given our track record of drafting that guy is unlikely to impact our roster in a more meaningful way than Orton could.

I assure you that starting Tebow over Orton is in no way, shape or form "throwing away your best players". In fact... it's pretty much the opposite.

Tim averaged running it 10x per game and also has the option to go out of bounds or slide to avoid the hit and had no issue

Kyle took 3 sacks per game and is built like a China doll, throughout his career has never played a full season.

bronco_diesel
01-06-2011, 01:56 PM
Orton:
Looks like that guy that would eat his scabs in the back row in fifth grade.


That is funny.

troya900
01-06-2011, 01:59 PM
Tebow and Orton could not be more opposite of each other.

Orton:

Accurate short and mid-ranged passer.
Less accurate deep passer (though is MUCH better this year.)
Sound fundamentals.
Very safe, low risk passer.
No athleticism. None.
Looks like that guy that would eat his scabs in the back row in fifth grade.
Neckbeard.
Goes down with a sack in a light breeze.


Tebow:

Inaccurate short to mid range passer.
Throws a great deep ball.
Fundamentals, schmundamentals.
High risk, high reward passer. Let's his receiver "go get it."
More athletic than many of the players on our defense.
Looks like a cross between a male model and a vampire hunter.
Awesome scruff beard.
Wouldn't go down in a sack if he was shot with an elephant gun.



Kyle Orton makes Chris Everett look like Tim Tebow. :D

Agamemnon
01-06-2011, 02:03 PM
Rushing:
Orton 90 ypg #30 in the NFL
Tebow 126 ypg #8 in the NFL

Most of that being produced by Tebow himself. The running back's didn't do much in most of Tebow's starts.

Broncosfreak_56
01-06-2011, 02:05 PM
You sure there is a breeze when Orton goes down?

Either that or a renegade piece of grass on the field...

yerner
01-06-2011, 02:07 PM
this is bs. the sample size for tebow is too small to even make this argument.

OrangeSe7en
01-06-2011, 02:08 PM
In comparison to a veteran QB in his second year in the offensive system:

Orton 55/170 on 3rd down (32%)
Tebow 12/37 on 3rd down (32%)

Orton 7.3 ypa
Tebow 8.0 ypa

Offense under Orton 20.7 ppg
Offense under Tebow 25 ppg (Over a 20% improvement)

Orton ypg 288.5 (269.8 counting sack yardage)
Tebow ypg 293.7 (285 counting sack yardage)

Turnovers:
Orton turned the ball over 13 times in 532 drop backs (2.5%)
Tebow turned the ball over 3 times in 88 drop backs (3.4%)

Orton's scoring to TO ratio is 20:13 or 1.54
Tebow's scoring to TO ratio is 11:3 or 3.7 and 7:3 as a starter or 2.3

Average defensive rank faced:
Orton 17
Tebow 14

Average pass d rank faced:
Orton 17
Tebow 12

I imagine there's no need to mention that he was a rookie with an interim headcoach.

Maybe it says Tebow is a better QB, or maybe it doesnt. What it says is how well Tebow performed. Thats what Tebow is. He converts chances. He converts TDs in the red zone and he takes advantage in a larger sense.

I think it was well put by Elway when he said he's a football player full of intangibles. That alone allows Tebow to hold his own against a solid QB who was having a career year.

And theres no reason to think Tebow won't get a lot better.

OrangeSe7en
01-06-2011, 02:14 PM
Rushing:
Orton 90 ypg #30 in the NFL
Tebow 126 ypg #8 in the NFL

Damn! Way to go Tebow!

Jetmeck
01-06-2011, 02:14 PM
TEBOW > Orton............who was a mistake to trade for to begin with.

Homer Simpson
01-06-2011, 02:15 PM
this is bs. the sample size for tebow is too small to even make this argument.

Shut up Kyle.

Dedhed
01-06-2011, 02:18 PM
Feel justified in tossing aside a decent QB like Orton and turning to a "very raw" (Elway's words) rookie.So you think that Tebow's performance in his 3 starts didn't justify being ahead of Orton on the depth chart? You don't watch the Broncos play do you?



We don't HAVE to rebuild. Miami went from 1 - 15 to the playoffs. Atlanta went from the Mike Vick/Bobby Petrino disaster to the playoffs. Both after building up a decades worth of high draft picks. Calling those teams a 1 year turn around is absurd.

toss aside your best players for the unknown. The key to avoiding rebuilding is to take what's good about your football team and building on it. Like it or not, Kyle Orton was 1 of the 10 best players on the 2010 Denver Broncos.So you're sticking to the "Orton gives us a better chance to win than Tebow" take. Good luck with that.


Tebow will get hurt if he continues to run the football 10 - 12 times a game. That's not baseless nor difficult to prognosticate. He's already been injured in one NFL game, remember? Taking on NFL safeties and linebackers is not a think a QB should be doing on a regular basis.Because no one carries the ball 10-12 times a game without getting injured. Have you noticed Tebow has a slightly different build than, say, Kyle Orton, that might make him better equipped to take on LBs and Safeties? I remember his first ever chance to score a TD, and I also noticed that he learned from it and didn't take any hit of note in any of his starts. The ones in the pocket were worse than those on the run.

As for what we'll get for Orton? Well they are allegedly going to ask for a 2nd rounder. My guess is they won't get more than a 3rd or 4th. Given our track record of drafting that guy is unlikely to impact our roster in a more meaningful way than Orton could.You'll forgive me if I don't put much stock into "your guess".

schaaf
01-06-2011, 03:39 PM
Dedhead, I completely agree, I brought the point up in a thread a few days ago at how Tebow will run it 10 times per game (on average). His runs are runs where its a quarterback draw, or on the goal line, or a scramble to pick up a first down.

When he runs like that how many times is he susceptible to a big hit that could injure him? And look at all the running quarterbacks throughout history, have any of them missed a lot of time because of taking "too many hits"? NO, I cannot think of one.

Kyle Orton hasn't been able to hold his body together two straight seasons. and that is from him being pushed and a light sack. Tebow has almost 30 pounds on Orton and is by far more athletic

Play2win
01-06-2011, 03:42 PM
Most of that being produced by Tebow himself. The running back's didn't do much in most of Tebow's starts.

Thats kinda what I was trying to get at.

Tombstone RJ
01-06-2011, 03:45 PM
You also have to consider defense, ST, and the running game was better at the end of the year.

Anyways I don't understand why you would want to prove that Tebow played better. It is quite clear the Broncos are ready to move forward with Tebow, so continuing a QB debate is pointless. Orton is an afterthought right now aside from the discussions on what value he holds in a trade.

Not so sure about this. Looked to me like the running game actually got worse when Tebow was playing.

Dedhed
01-06-2011, 03:49 PM
You also have to consider defense, ST, and the running game was better at the end of the year.

What do you think might have sparked their superior effort? hmmm

BroncsRule
01-08-2011, 07:22 AM
My point was that he never tried to make a play. It would be impressive if he also put the ball in the end zone. He didn't, so it's not.

If Orton never tried to make a play in the RZ, where did the 13 tD's come from?

errand
01-08-2011, 07:43 AM
In comparison to a veteran QB in his second year in the offensive system:

Orton 55/170 on 3rd down (32%)
Tebow 12/37 on 3rd down (32%)

Orton 7.3 ypa
Tebow 8.0 ypa

Offense under Orton 20.7 ppg
Offense under Tebow 25 ppg (Over a 20% improvement)

Orton ypg 288.5 (269.8 counting sack yardage)
Tebow ypg 293.7 (285 counting sack yardage)

Turnovers:
Orton turned the ball over 13 times in 532 drop backs (2.5%)
Tebow turned the ball over 3 times in 88 drop backs (3.4%)

Orton's scoring to TO ratio is 20:13 or 1.54
Tebow's scoring to TO ratio is 11:3 or 3.7 and 7:3 as a starter or 2.3

Average defensive rank faced:
Orton 17
Tebow 14

Average pass d rank faced:
Orton 17
Tebow 12

I imagine there's no need to mention that he was a rookie with an interim headcoach.

i recall in '06 we had a similiar situation, where we replaced the guy who ran the offense pretty well to get a glimpse of the possible future....and we got burned then.

Broncos went 10-7, 10-7, 14-4, and 7-4 with Jake Plummer (41-22) before he was replaced by Cutler who went 2-3, 7-9, 8-8 (17-20) as our starter. now keep in mind alot of people posted the same **** you are pointing out how much more the offense scored, etc. under Cutler vs Plummer...all the while forgetting that it doesn't matter if you score 27 points a game when your defense is consistently giving up 30 a game.

Tebow has shown promise, and I believe he'll be successful when he eventually does ascend to the throne.....

....having said that, I'm not sold on dumping Kyle just yet. Keep in mind he was playing with very sore ribs his last two games where he underachieved, but prior to those last two games he was playing lights out for the most part.

Regardless of how our QB situation is resolved, we don't stand a prayer of winning **** if we don't build a very good to dominant defense that can limit opposing QB's to less than a month to find the open man, and stop guys like me from running over them like they're toddlers

strafen
01-08-2011, 07:49 AM
this is bs. the sample size for tebow is too small to even make this argument.

The way Tebow played in college, is the way he's playing in the pros.
He's showing the same fire and determination that made him a winner.

Orton. We've seen enough of him that whatever he had, if you didn't pay attention, you missed it.
That's is. No more, no less.
Orton is flat out a horrible QB.
Wait until he goes to another team, and you'll all see what I mean.
This in case you all refuse to see IT while he's here...

errand
01-08-2011, 07:50 AM
What do you think might have sparked their superior effort? hmmm

...umm perhaps having 13 games of real time experienced helped the younger guys develop into better players?

Having a rookie LT play lights out like Clady is rare, which explains why guys like Beadles and Walton didn't in the first half of the year, however the offense showed marked improvement over the last half of the season. You trying to say that a healthy Orton wouldn't have played like he did for most of the season the last 3 games? I that hard to believe ....that's not a knock on Tebow, it's just my belief that Orton would have ran the offense just as well.

As far as the claim our defense played better down the stretch, i laugh at that notion.....our defense sucks in _enver.

TheReverend
01-08-2011, 07:52 AM
i recall in '06 we had a similiar situation, where we replaced the guy who ran the offense pretty well to get a glimpse of the possible future....and we got burned then.

Broncos went 10-7, 10-7, 14-4, and 7-4 with Jake Plummer (41-22) before he was replaced by Cutler who went 2-3, 7-9, 8-8 (17-20) as our starter. now keep in mind alot of people posted the same **** you are pointing out how much more the offense scored, etc. under Cutler vs Plummer...all the while forgetting that it doesn't matter if you score 27 points a game when your defense is consistently giving up 30 a game.

Tebow has shown promise, and I believe he'll be successful when he eventually does ascend to the throne.....

....having said that, I'm not sold on dumping Kyle just yet. Keep in mind he was playing with very sore ribs his last two games where he underachieved, but prior to those last two games he was playing lights out for the most part.

Regardless of how our QB situation is resolved, we don't stand a prayer of winning **** if we don't build a very good to dominant defense that can limit opposing QB's to less than a month to find the open man, and stop guys like me from running over them like they're toddlers

Pretty silly argument. Are you arguing win percentage over stats? Because if that's the case, Tebow's win percentage was also higher than Kyle's in 2011, despite not having a coach.

TheReverend
01-08-2011, 07:53 AM
And side note:

Cutler didn't ruin the defense. Al Wilson's spine did. He also didn't go 2-3 in 2006. We were beating SF in week 17 until he got hurt and Plummer entered the game promptly going 0-2 with 1 pick. The staff thought a concussed Cutler > healthy Plummer.

TheReverend
01-08-2011, 07:56 AM
...umm perhaps having 13 games of real time experienced helped the younger guys develop into better players?

Having a rookie LT play lights out like Clady is rare, which explains why guys like Beadles and Walton didn't in the first half of the year, however the offense showed marked improvement over the last half of the season. You trying to say that a healthy Orton wouldn't have played like he did for most of the season the last 3 games? I that hard to believe ....that's not a knock on Tebow, it's just my belief that Orton would have ran the offense just as well.

As far as the claim our defense played better down the stretch, i laugh at that notion.....our defense sucks in _enver.

Defensive rankings Kyle Orton faced:

28
27
20
26
10
3
11
13
14
1
19
14
29

Think that might have something to do with him putting up some gaudy numbers in a few games?

errand
01-08-2011, 08:02 AM
The way Tebow played in college, is theway he's playing in thpros.
He's showing the same fire and determination that made him a winner.

Orton. We've seen enough of him that whatever he had, if you didn't pay attention, you missed it.
That's is. No more, no less.
Orton is flat out a horrible QB.
Wait until he goes to another team, and you'll all see what I mean.
This in case you all refuse to see IT while he's here...

Orton has made great strides as a QB over the years..his Qb rating has gotten progressively better every season , as has his yards per attempt....and given he didn't play for two of his 4 Bears seasons, this is essentially his 4th year of playing.

Nobody has confused Kyle with John....but to say he sucks is pretty much just you being transparent. You hate him because he's the guy who replaced Jay...just like blueflame bitching about Jake replacing her boy Brian.

If Orton's time in Denver is over, i'll wish him well and move on to rooting for Tebow or whomever else we've lined up under center....but to get rid of him after watching Tebow for only 3 starts is pretty stupid. and of course that's provided he stays.... he might not want to remain in Denver as a back-up....in which case I'd trade him to another team and we'll go from there.

errand
01-08-2011, 08:06 AM
Pretty silly argument. Are you arguing win percentage over stats? Because if that's the case, Tebow's win percentage was also higher than Kyle's in 2011, despite not having a coach.

no I'm arguing that Orton wasn't the problem with the '10 Broncos....the defense was. I don't care if Bowlen is able to acquire Tom Brady or Peyton Manning.....they can't win playing against two defenses....and I'm not shocked that Kyle couldn't either.

TheReverend
01-08-2011, 08:07 AM
no I'm arguing that Orton wasn't the problem with the '10 Broncos....the defense was. I don't care if Bowlen is able to acquire Tom Brady or Peyton Manning.....they can't win playing against two defenses....and I'm not shocked that Kyle couldn't either.

Yes or no:

Did a Tim Tebow (a rookie) perform better than Kyle Orton in 2010 (a veteran in his 2nd year in the system)?

errand
01-08-2011, 08:10 AM
Defensive rankings Kyle Orton faced:

28
27
20
26
10
3
11
13
14
1
19
14
29

Think that might have something to do with him putting up some gaudy numbers in a few games?

...you forgot about the other defense he and Tebow played against in every game...the one that ranked 31st in pass defense, 32nd in run defense, points allowed and total defense.

Like i've said....only God himself would have won more than 4 games this year playing against two defenses. Orton nor Tebow is the problem...and neither guy will win unless we fix what truly ails us

TheReverend
01-08-2011, 08:22 AM
...you forgot about the other defense he and Tebow played against in every game...the one that ranked 31st in pass defense, 32nd in run defense, points allowed and total defense.

Like i've said....only God himself would have won more than 4 games this year playing against two defenses. Orton nor Tebow is the problem...and neither guy will win unless we fix what truly ails us

http://www.stinque.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/captainobvious.jpg


Re-read thread title and discussion.

Dedhed
01-08-2011, 09:11 AM
...umm perhaps having 13 games of real time experienced helped the younger guys develop into better players?


Ahh, yes, I've often heard that it's the 14th game wen things click for rookies.

Tebow provided a spark that went through the entire team. STs were better, the defense caused TOs and actually made a couple of plays.

The entire team was better with Tebow.

Cito Pelon
01-08-2011, 09:14 AM
i recall in '06 we had a similiar situation, where we replaced the guy who ran the offense pretty well to get a glimpse of the possible future....and we got burned then.

Broncos went 10-7, 10-7, 14-4, and 7-4 with Jake Plummer (41-22) before he was replaced by Cutler who went 2-3, 7-9, 8-8 (17-20) as our starter. now keep in mind alot of people posted the same **** you are pointing out how much more the offense scored, etc. under Cutler vs Plummer...all the while forgetting that it doesn't matter if you score 27 points a game when your defense is consistently giving up 30 a game.

Tebow has shown promise, and I believe he'll be successful when he eventually does ascend to the throne.....

....having said that, I'm not sold on dumping Kyle just yet. Keep in mind he was playing with very sore ribs his last two games where he underachieved, but prior to those last two games he was playing lights out for the most part.

Regardless of how our QB situation is resolved, we don't stand a prayer of winning **** if we don't build a very good to dominant defense that can limit opposing QB's to less than a month to find the open man, and stop guys like me from running over them like they're toddlers

Oh yeah. Remember, the 2005 season was the year Denver was +21 in turnover differential, with Jake only throwing 7 INT's and 18 TD's.

Cutler is a good QB, but he's pretty much led the NFL in turnovers throughout his career (he's cut them down this season, particularly the last half of the season when he's only thrown about 25 times a game), also led the NFL in redzone turnovers.

Orton is a solid/decent NFL starter, I've said that many times, but he's always gonna be a guy a team looks to replace because he just doesn't have that little extra something.

Tebow? I think whatever Steve Young could do, Tebow can also. I pointed out on another thread Steve Young is known for his SF years, but people forget he played a lot of games in the USFL (1984) and with the Buccaneers (1985-86), and rode the pine behind Montana in SF for 4 years (1987-1990). Those were the first 7 years of his career as a pro.

Tebow just needs the time and the repetitions, IMO, and hopefully it doesn't take 7 years.

Cito Pelon
01-08-2011, 09:23 AM
Defensive rankings Kyle Orton faced:

28
27
20
26
10
3
11
13
14
1
19
14
29

Think that might have something to do with him putting up some gaudy numbers in a few games?

You're becoming a major stat whore. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just kind of ironic.

errand
01-08-2011, 09:31 AM
Yes or no:

Did a Tim Tebow (a rookie) perform better than Kyle Orton in 2010 (a veteran in his 2nd year in the system)?

Well let's see...they both played against two common opponents. Both played division rivals Chargers and Raiders...so W-L is a wash at 0-2 for them both.

Kyle Orton hit 12 of 29 for 198 yards vs Raiders (41.4%) 2 TD's and 1 INT...he also had 2 runs for 21 yards (10.5 average) and the raiders recovered his one fumble. He was sacked 4 times. his QB rating was 73.6.

Against the Chargers Kyle hit on 24 of 38 (63.2%) for 217 yards with 1 TD and 1 INT. He ran once for 4 yards, and his QB rating was 76.3

combined Orton's numbers are 36 of 67 (53.7%) for 415 yards (6.2 ypa) 3 TD's and 2 INT's...average QB rating of 74.9. 3 rushes for 25 yards (8.3 ypc) and had one fumble which he lost.

Tebow vs Raiders hit on 8 of 16 (50%) for 138 yards 1 TD and 0 INT's...he had 8 rushes for 78 and 1 TD. his Qb rating was 100.5 He was sacked twice

Tebow vs chargers hit on 16 of 36 (44.4%) for 205 yards and had 2 TD's and 2 INTs. He had 13 runs for 94 yards and 1 TD...he was sacked 3 times..his Qb rating was 58.2

Combined Tebow hit on 24 of 52 (46.1%) for 343 yards (6.6 ypa), 3 TD's and 2 INT's...he had 21 rushes for 172 yards and 2 TD's. His average QB rating was 79.3

so basically it's a wash....the only marked difference is that Tebow runs better than Orton does, which is pretty ****ing obvious to all.

Considering Tebow's inexperience, and the fact our defense sucked...yeah one could argue your point...but considering Orton's physical limitations and the fact that the defense swallowed and got it shot all over their face when he played them, again I'd say it's a wash.

Either way i don't care.....I'm not anti-Tebow or pro-Orton I happen to like both of them personally.......I'm just saying that the QB position isn't the problem, so it really doesn't matter which guy is under center. which makes this thread pretty much assinine

errand
01-08-2011, 09:38 AM
Ahh, yes, I've often heard that it's the 14th game wen things click for rookies.

Tebow provided a spark that went through the entire team. STs were better, the defense caused TOs and actually made a couple of plays.

The entire team was better with Tebow.

the defense gave up 39, 23, and 33 points while being sparked by the rookie playing. they gave up just as many with the uninspiring guy under center......

youn wanna argue he sparked the offense...Ok, fine...but please don't try to tell us that the "entire" team played better.

errand
01-08-2011, 09:41 AM
Oh yeah. Remember, the 2005 season was the year Denver was +21 in turnover differential, with Jake only throwing 7 INT's and 18 TD's.

Cutler is a good QB, but he's pretty much led the NFL in turnovers throughout his career (he's cut them down this season, particularly the last half of the season when he's only thrown about 25 times a game), also led the NFL in redzone turnovers.

Orton is a solid/decent NFL starter, I've said that many times, but he's always gonna be a guy a team looks to replace because he just doesn't have that little extra something.

Tebow? I think whatever Steve Young could do, Tebow can also. I pointed out on another thread Steve Young is known for his SF years, but people forget he played a lot of games in the USFL (1984) and with the Buccaneers (1985-86), and rode the pine behind Montana in SF for 4 years (1987-1990). Those were the first 7 years of his career as a pro.

Tebow just needs the time and the repetitions, IMO, and hopefully it doesn't take 7 years.

Exactly....I'm not saying he can't do it...i'm just saying I'll personally need to see more than 3 games to make a valued judgement on him. My main concern is how will he respond to a new QB coach vs McDaniels who's done an outstanding job developing afterthoughts into pretty damn good QB's (Brady, Cassell, Orton). We might have unwittingly fired the best guy to get the immense potential Tebow has out of him.

Dedhed
01-08-2011, 09:50 AM
the defense gave up 39, 23, and 33 points while being sparked by the rookie playing. they gave up just as many with the uninspiring guy under center......

youn wanna argue he sparked the offense...Ok, fine...but please don't try to tell us that the "entire" team played better.

Apply your common opponent take and see what results you get.

frerottenextelway
01-08-2011, 09:50 AM
Orton is a lot like Brian Griese, except we scored a lot more points and won more games with Brian.

Orton will be quickly forgotten.

lostknight
01-08-2011, 09:56 AM
Tebow and Orton more or less performed similarly. How they did it was drastically different. Tebow's drives controlled the clock. There was a sense at time that the offense would not be denied, no matter what. I can never remember feeling that with Orton. The rest of the Broncos offense became much more effective because the defense was worried about Tebow. Thus, despite the vast inequity in terms of pure passing skills, Tebow was virtually identical to Orton, but the offense was a hell of a lot better.

That alone should sell you on the fact that a very very raw rookie is performing at similar level as a veteran in the league who was having a career year. But it gets more important. I can only count one game where Kyle Orton took this team on his back, and won the game. With Tebow, we were in it all three games, and twice, it was solely on Tebow finding a way to make things happen. Tebow has the one thing that Orton, Cutler, Plummer, Brister, Griese,etc have all lacked. He has the "it" factor. And he is in freaken spades.

I think Chris Berman said it right - Tebow was here, and the "White Horses have started to gallop again in the Mile High."

If the Broncos are really serious about (re)establishing a Broncos identity - to do something "The Broncos way" as Elway said, there is no better foundation then to start with Tim Tebow.

Make sure everyone knows it's a rebuilding year, know that it will take a few years to undo Josh's two years of havoc and hell. Know that the New England apologists are going to attack this team at every moment, and the dickwad Florio's of the world will continue to unleash their spittle. But also know that this team will establish what has made this franchise one of the most successful in the NFL.

errand
01-08-2011, 10:30 AM
Apply your common opponent take and see what results you get.

Yeah, Ok you win....Tebow inspired the defense to surrender "only" 39 to the Raiders and "only" 33 to the Chargers.....give me a ****ing break

errand
01-08-2011, 10:42 AM
For the record I'm a believer in Tebow...i just think we should be more concerned with whether or not the broncos are gonna be able to build a defense that'll keep him from having to bring us back from 13-14 points down every game.

Cito Pelon
01-08-2011, 10:53 AM
For the record I'm a believer in Tebow...i just think we should be more concerned with whether or not the broncos are gonna be able to build a defense that'll keep him from having to bring us back from 13-14 points down every game.

Yeah, I bet Denver has led the NFL since 2007 giving up +20, +30, +40, +50, and +60 yd plays by the _efense.

EDIT:

Did some research:

Denver rushing Defense, +20 yd runs:
2010 1st
2009 5th
2008 3rd
2007 1st

Denver rushing Defense, +40 yd runs:
2010 2nd
2009 8th
2008 1st
2007 9th

Passing Defense was doing well in the +20 and +40 categories until 2010:
2010 +20 1st
2010 +40 4th

NFL.com used to have +30, +50, +60 categories also, but I don't see them now. I think the Denver D would be right at the top in those categories also.

Gort
01-08-2011, 11:00 AM
In comparison to a veteran QB in his second year in the offensive system:

the comparison is simple.

Tebow doing what he does best

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2010/12/18/alg_tebow_broncos_celebrates2.jpg

Orton doing what he does best

http://img2.allvoices.com/thumbs/event/900/570/67212848-broncos-orton.jpg

'nuff said.

Gort
01-08-2011, 11:03 AM
Orton is a lot like Brian Griese, except we scored a lot more points and won more games with Brian.

Orton will be quickly forgotten.

Orton has some skills. he just doesn't have the right skill set for a 4-12 team like the 2010 Broncos. he'd do better with more talent around him on a competitive team. but as the leader here, he just didn't have the spark and he was very 1-dimensional at QB. no dynamism. very little play making ability if subjected to pressure. i don't dislike the guy... i just know that a team in full-on rebuilding mode can't utilize him to the best of his abilities. i don't think it's a good idea to pay a guy $9M a year to lose ballgames either. better to spend that money elsewhere.

OABB
01-08-2011, 11:50 AM
Orton has some skills. he just doesn't have the right skill set for a 4-12 team like the 2010 Broncos. he'd do better with more talent around him on a competitive team. but as the leader here, he just didn't have the spark and he was very 1-dimensional at QB. no dynamism. very little play making ability if subjected to pressure. i don't dislike the guy... i just know that a team in full-on rebuilding mode can't utilize him to the best of his abilities. i don't think it's a good idea to pay a guy $9M a year to lose ballgames either. better to spend that money elsewhere.


Boom. End thread. Well said.

errand
01-08-2011, 12:02 PM
Orton has some skills. he just doesn't have the right skill set for a 4-12 team like the 2010 Broncos. he'd do better with more talent around him on a competitive team. but as the leader here, he just didn't have the spark and he was very 1-dimensional at QB. no dynamism. very little play making ability if subjected to pressure. i don't dislike the guy... i just know that a team in full-on rebuilding mode can't utilize him to the best of his abilities. i don't think it's a good idea to pay a guy $9M a year to lose ballgames either. better to spend that money elsewhere.

I agree to a degree...i don't thinka three game test should be reason to dump Orton just yet, but it makes sense financially....paying two QB's top dollar is akin to paying I dunno...three ****ing coaches in '11.

said that i think that if we're back to square one and have to rebuild, it makes more sense to go with a youth movement. i also don't think it'd be a good idea to have either guy (Tebow or orton) looking over his shoulder for the coach to yank him in or outta the lineup. Like i said, if his days here are over, fare thee well and let's start the new era and see where it takes us...hopefully we'll have to make room in the trophy case

TheReverend
01-08-2011, 01:32 PM
You're becoming a major stat whore. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just kind of ironic.

How is that ironic? Especially since I ALWAYS have been?

gyldenlove
01-08-2011, 02:12 PM
Well let's see...they both played against two common opponents. Both played division rivals Chargers and Raiders...so W-L is a wash at 0-2 for them both.

Kyle Orton hit 12 of 29 for 198 yards vs Raiders (41.4%) 2 TD's and 1 INT...he also had 2 runs for 21 yards (10.5 average) and the raiders recovered his one fumble. He was sacked 4 times. his QB rating was 73.6.

Against the Chargers Kyle hit on 24 of 38 (63.2%) for 217 yards with 1 TD and 1 INT. He ran once for 4 yards, and his QB rating was 76.3

combined Orton's numbers are 36 of 67 (53.7%) for 415 yards (6.2 ypa) 3 TD's and 2 INT's...average QB rating of 74.9. 3 rushes for 25 yards (8.3 ypc) and had one fumble which he lost.

Tebow vs Raiders hit on 8 of 16 (50%) for 138 yards 1 TD and 0 INT's...he had 8 rushes for 78 and 1 TD. his Qb rating was 100.5 He was sacked twice

Tebow vs chargers hit on 16 of 36 (44.4%) for 205 yards and had 2 TD's and 2 INTs. He had 13 runs for 94 yards and 1 TD...he was sacked 3 times..his Qb rating was 58.2

Combined Tebow hit on 24 of 52 (46.1%) for 343 yards (6.6 ypa), 3 TD's and 2 INT's...he had 21 rushes for 172 yards and 2 TD's. His average QB rating was 79.3

so basically it's a wash....the only marked difference is that Tebow runs better than Orton does, which is pretty ****ing obvious to all.

Considering Tebow's inexperience, and the fact our defense sucked...yeah one could argue your point...but considering Orton's physical limitations and the fact that the defense swallowed and got it shot all over their face when he played them, again I'd say it's a wash.

Either way i don't care.....I'm not anti-Tebow or pro-Orton I happen to like both of them personally.......I'm just saying that the QB position isn't the problem, so it really doesn't matter which guy is under center. which makes this thread pretty much assinine

Here is another way to phrase the same thing:

Orton: 440 yards, 3 TDs, 3 turnovers

Tebow: 515 yards, 5 TDs, 2 turnovers

Now, I am not saying one is better than the other based on that limited sample such a conclusion would be wildly unfounded, but I can draw a straight line between 2 points and I will be damned if that line isn't trending higher for Tebow than Orton in that comparison, he has 17% more yards, 67% more touchdowns and 33% fewer turnovers.

The running backs were comparable in the 2 starts with them gaining a few more yards and having a better average under Orton, however the total run game was much improved with Tebow's yards factored in.

Miss I.
01-08-2011, 02:18 PM
Here is another way to phrase the same thing:

Orton: 440 yards, 3 TDs, 3 turnovers

Tebow: 515 yards, 5 TDs, 2 turnovers

Now, I am not saying one is better than the other based on that limited sample such a conclusion would be wildly unfounded, but I can draw a straight line between 2 points and I will be damned if that line isn't trending higher for Tebow than Orton in that comparison, he has 17% more yards, 67% more touchdowns and 33% fewer turnovers.

The running backs were comparable in the 2 starts with them gaining a few more yards and having a better average under Orton, however the total run game was much improved with Tebow's yards factored in.

Personally I am more in line with Errand's take on this whole thing and I am not going to make much of an argument here, but I don't believe Tebow's run yards should be considered in anyway as an improvement in the run game. If anything it indicates a worsening if the QB has more run yards then the running back. It just reemphasizes how crappy and in desperate need we are for a real run game. It's good Tebow is mobile, but I don't want him getting more running yards than the running backs.

gyldenlove
01-08-2011, 02:28 PM
Personally I am more in line with Errand's take on this whole thing and I am not going to make much of an argument here, but I don't believe Tebow's run yards should be considered in anyway as an improvement in the run game. If anything it indicates a worsening if the QB has more run yards then the running back. It just reemphasizes how crappy and in desperate need we are for a real run game. It's good Tebow is mobile, but I don't want him getting more running yards than the running backs.

The traditional run game didn't improve under Tebow, the only real difference is that we ran the ball more with our running backs than under Orton and Mcdaniels. The running backs do need to improve, and there are several things in that equation, the plays need to be set up and called better, the scheme needs to be worked out, the blocking needs to be better and the rushers need to play better.

Tebow did have more yards than Orton, more touchdowns and fewer turnovers, that was really the takehome message, the run game was just in there as a mention to show that the improvement couldn't be attributed to a more dangerous run game, but was in the QB play alone.

Likwid Kerruj
01-08-2011, 02:28 PM
For the record I'm a believer in Tebow...i just think we should be more concerned with whether or not the broncos are gonna be able to build a defense that'll keep him from having to bring us back from 13-14 points down every game.

Maybe the offense can help out and show up more often before halftime.

They're not without blame for a lot of those deficits...

errand
01-08-2011, 04:18 PM
Tebow did have more yards than Orton, more touchdowns and fewer turnovers, that was really the takehome message, the run game was just in there as a mention to show that the improvement couldn't be attributed to a more dangerous run game, but was in the QB play alone.


So I'm guessing taking off running if the primary option isn't open is what you want in your QB....

errand
01-08-2011, 04:22 PM
Maybe the offense can help out and show up more often before halftime.

They're not without blame for a lot of those deficits...

How about causing a few 3 and outs of their own? You sound like TJ when he blamed Plummer for the Colts and Steelers making us lick a cat's ass in the playoffs....

Gort
01-08-2011, 04:29 PM
How about causing a few 3 and outs of their own? You sound like TJ when he blamed Plummer for the Colts and Steelers making us lick a cat's ass in the playoffs....

is that some sort of hillbilly expression. never heard it before. don't really want to hear it again. ugh.

gyldenlove
01-08-2011, 04:30 PM
So I'm guessing taking off running if the primary option isn't open is what you want in your QB....

I prefer it to whatever Orton was doing, because that was worse.

Dedhed
01-08-2011, 04:39 PM
So I'm guessing taking off running if the primary option isn't open is what you want in your QB....

Not really, but it's nice if that's an option.

Steve Sewell
01-08-2011, 05:38 PM
These stats are making my eyes bleed.

Here is the bottom line difference between Orton and Tebow:

- Tebow makes plays when the team needs him to.

- Orton does not.

Dedhed
01-08-2011, 06:03 PM
These stats are making my eyes bleed.

Here is the bottom line difference between Orton and Tebow:

- Tebow makes plays when the team needs him to.

- Orton does not.

Yup. It's a painful quantitative argument, but brutally simple from a qualitative standpoint.

baja
01-08-2011, 06:05 PM
These stats are making my eyes bleed.

Here is the bottom line difference between Orton and Tebow:

- Tebow makes plays when the team needs him to.

- Orton does not.

...and there you have it!

gobroncos313
01-08-2011, 06:10 PM
Good call. I tried to be impartial as possible by including TO numbers where Orton beats him in one category.

Red zone (including QB rating for full impartiality):

Orton 67 attempts, 13 TDs, 0 INTs, 91.5 rating
Tebow 10 attempts, 3 TDs, 1 INT, 39.6 rating

That being said... Tim does have another 6 red zone rushing TDs

Orton 5.1 attempts per TD in the red zone
Tebow 3.3 attempts per TD in the red zone

It takes Orton almost two more passes on average to get it in the end zone than it does Tebow? I would say that Orton's passer rating is so much higher because he tends to dink it and dunk it more in the end zone while Tebow tends to either throw it into the end zone or run the ball, at least from what I saw that was what it seemed to be.

I wonder what percentage of the time the offense got a TD when in the red zone under each QB?

Dedhed
01-08-2011, 06:18 PM
If Orton never tried to make a play in the RZ, where did the 13 tD's come from?

Game plans.

You're not using the concept of "to make a play."

Executing a well designed play is different from "making a play."

I saw Orton make 1 play that I can remember in 2 years in Denver. The slide scramble pass to Royal against Dallas last year.

Tebow made more plays than that per quarter.

Dedhed
01-08-2011, 06:19 PM
I wonder what percentage of the time the offense got a TD when in the red zone under each QB?
I'd be interested to see that stat also.

Likwid Kerruj
01-08-2011, 06:21 PM
I'm not a fan of either guy, but Tebow has made more plays than Orton.

Cito Pelon
01-08-2011, 06:37 PM
How is that ironic? Especially since I ALWAYS have been?

You got all ticked off about people using statistics to bolster arguments and put in that sig line "42.7% of all statistics....". Now you're the stat monster.

Ironic.

kamakazi_kal
01-08-2011, 10:26 PM
easy one ...

tebow=upside
orton=average

/b

errand
01-11-2011, 02:05 PM
I prefer it to whatever Orton was doing, because that was worse.

throwing for 3600 yards with a 2-1 TD to INT ratio is worse? I'm not saying you're stupid...but wouldn't you have to be?

errand
01-11-2011, 02:08 PM
.

I wonder what percentage of the time the offense got a TD when in the red zone under each QB?

OK, so you gonna give Tebow the TD's he ran for as our red zone QB after Orton drove the team within the red zone? Sure, Kyle dug the hole Tim pushed them in...whatever.

Again for all the plays either guy made it didn't matter....because our defense went ass up every ****ing game and gave up 30 points

bombay
01-11-2011, 02:14 PM
Isn't it fait occompli that Orton is gone?

OK.

Agamemnon
01-11-2011, 02:15 PM
OK, so you gonna give Tebow the TD's he ran for as our red zone QB after Orton drove the team within the red zone?

Considering how often he failed to punch it in himself, yes.

jerad_geiger10
01-11-2011, 02:18 PM
tebow just has the natural desire to win. you can't coach that and it doesn't show up in the stat book

errand
01-11-2011, 02:21 PM
These stats are making my eyes bleed.

Here is the bottom line difference between Orton and Tebow:

- Tebow makes plays when the team needs him to.

- Orton does not.

I agree Tebow can make things happen when the play breaks down due to his exceptional athleticism and strength...however he's generally taking off running once option one isn't open.

....alot of QB's can make plays if they took off running without having to sit and wait to see if option 2 or 3 opens up.

What i find amazingly odd is that a vast majority of those on here praising Tebow after three games for making things happen were generally the same guys bitching about Plummer, another QB that won games by making things happen with his legs after plays broke down. They generally bitched about his throwing from the pocket.

Tebow hopefully will develop into a top notch QB...but right now he's just a better athlete. Now if the powers that be decide to dump Orton...that's fine, but the decision to do needs to happen asap because if Tebow is gonna lead this team he needs to be the unquestioned #1 QB because he and Orton are not going to co-exist.

Both are professionals, however they're also competitotrs who want to be the top dog....that's never worked for anyone. It didn't work for Staubach-Morton, Flutie-Johnson and it's not gonna work here. So either go with Orton and give Tebow another season to learn, or trade him now and annoint Tebow the starter and let's get the kid the reps he's gonna need to become the kind of QB we hope he'll turn out to be.

errand
01-11-2011, 02:25 PM
tebow just has the natural desire to win. you can't coach that and it doesn't show up in the stat book

That implies that Orton doesn't want to to win....and I think that's not accurate. Orton's physical limitations make him an easy target when some hotshot kid comes in and scrambles for a few TD's or big plays....but look at what happens in the playoffs when mobile QB's play...they generally lose more than they win, because to win in the playoffs you're gonna have to make plays while in the pocket.

Right now Tebow isn't that kind of QB...but I'll definitely say I think he's got what it takes to become that kind of QB.

frerottenextelway
01-11-2011, 02:26 PM
The pocket difference between Plummer and Tebow is that Plummer threw ducks as a vet, while Tebow was late on throws as a rookie.

Now, what's the difference between Orton and Griese, other than the Broncos scored more points and won more games with Griese?

errand
01-11-2011, 02:27 PM
Considering how often he failed to punch it in himself, yes.

Ok, so Orton drives the team to the 7, and the coaching staff yanks him out and inserts Tebow...yeah fair fight there.