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tsiguy96
01-05-2011, 08:13 AM
@michaelombardi : "There are indications coming from Carolina that the team will not draft a QB and rely on Jimmy Clausen next season"

after watching luck play in person, this kid is the real deal, amazingly exciting to watch, and i would not be upset if they drafted him.

Rohirrim
01-05-2011, 08:15 AM
I feel confident that he will return to Stanford. I wouldn't be surprised to see Harbaugh stay as well.

Man-Goblin
01-05-2011, 08:16 AM
If he's on the board you have to take him.

Mile High Shack
01-05-2011, 08:18 AM
If he's on the board you have to take him.

yeah, this, I mean I love Tebow and all, but if the dude fell to #2, obviously you take him

that being said

1) he won't fall to #2

2) he might go back to school

Ray Finkle
01-05-2011, 08:21 AM
which contradicts what ESPN is reporting...

MileHighMagic
01-05-2011, 08:21 AM
If he's on the board you have to take him.

No you do not. You trade down and thank the Panthers.

Man-Goblin
01-05-2011, 08:24 AM
yeah, this, I mean I love Tebow and all, but if the dude fell to #2, obviously you take him

that being said

1) he won't fall to #2

2) he might go back to school

Agreed. He's going to be the #1 pick whether it's this year or next. But if the Panthers have a shot at him and are stupid enough not to pull the trigger, shame on them.

Dagmar
01-05-2011, 08:25 AM
Wasn't this the report yesterday morning then it was debunked by the afternoon?



Published: <abbr id="article-time" class="value" title="2011-01-03T09:56:00-0800"> Jan. 3, 2011 at 12:56 p.m. </abbr>
Updated: <abbr id="article-updatedtime" class="value" title="2011-01-04T13:20:12-0800"> Jan. 4, 2011 at 04:20 p.m</abbr>

It was completely debunked by ESPN and other major and minor sites saying that Carolina will guarantee the Luck pick if he comes out.

tsiguy96
01-05-2011, 08:26 AM
which contradicts what ESPN is reporting...

i would take basically anyones reports over ESPN (unless schefter says it)

jhns
01-05-2011, 08:27 AM
I don't get why people would want to pick him. This franchise has failed because of defense since the SBs. You would think that at some point the fans would want to build the defense up. I really hope the front office wants to build the defense. Every year there is a new excuse to pick offensive players in the first....

Pony Boy
01-05-2011, 08:29 AM
Let me make this prediction so it will be guaranteed not to happen.....

If Rich Rodriguez is fired Harbaugh will go to Michigan and Luck will declare for the draft.

Gcver2ver3
01-05-2011, 08:29 AM
i hope this report is NOT true...

i don't want the scenario to even present itself...

i want to move forward with Tebow...if Luck somehow is available at #2, we'll be scrutinized no matter what we do...

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 08:30 AM
I don't get why people would want to pick him. This franchise has failed because of defense since the SBs. You would think that at some point the fans would want to build the defense up. I really hope the front office wants to build the defense. Every year there is a new excuse to pick offensive players in the first....

Because he's a really, really, REALLY good quarterback, as close to pro-ready as you can get? Maybe?

Because Tebow is still a project whose windup costs him 5-6 completions PER GAME and who makes some really poor decisions?

Because it's a quarterback league?

If you don't know why people might want to pick a quarterback who can come in and contribute immediately at a reasonably high level, and has the pro potential to grow into a perennial all-pro, then you're dumber than all of us thought. And that's pretty dumb already.

tsiguy96
01-05-2011, 08:30 AM
Let me make this prediction so it will be guaranteed not to happen.....

If Rich Rodriguez is fired Harbaugh will go to Michigan and Luck will declare for the draft.

harbaugh isnt/cant go to michigan?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 08:30 AM
Let me make this prediction so it will be guaranteed not to happen.....

If Rich Rodriguez is fired Harbaugh will go to Michigan and Luck will declare for the draft.

RichRod was fired yesterday.

TonyR
01-05-2011, 08:33 AM
RichRod was fired yesterday.

No, actually he wasn't and still hasn't been fired.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5988308

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 08:34 AM
No, actually he wasn't and still hasn't been fired.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5988308

Really? I was eating lunch at the Pub and ESPN was reporting it. "Rich Rodriguez out as Michigan Head Coach."

/shrug

Weird.

TonyR
01-05-2011, 08:35 AM
Really? I was eating lunch at the Pub and ESPN was reporting it. "Rich Rodriguez out as Michigan Head Coach."


I think there were some early/initial reports that he was fired, so understandable.

Pony Boy
01-05-2011, 08:36 AM
RichRod was fired yesterday.

Yes, he has his bags packed but it's not offical yet

Ray Finkle
01-05-2011, 08:36 AM
i would take basically anyones reports over ESPN (unless schefter says it)

how many times is Lombardi right? He's post/speaks with a vagueidity (new word btw) that allows him to always appear in the know.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 08:38 AM
how many times is Lombardi right? He's post/speaks with a vagueidity (new word btw) that allows him to always appear in the know.

REP!

Anytime you can add a new word to the English language, UR tha winnar.

Mile High Shack
01-05-2011, 08:38 AM
how many times is Lombardi right? He's post/speaks with a vagueidity (new word btw) that allows him to always appear in the know.

wow, you pulled a Palin with that word, I applaud you sir

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Music/Pix/pictures/2008/02/06/standingovation.jpg

Dedhed
01-05-2011, 08:39 AM
If they take someone else there, it would be golden for us.

Because Luck is THE #1 prospect our pick basically jumps in value to the #1 overall selection.

Cito Pelon
01-05-2011, 08:40 AM
If Denver picks Luck that's fine with me, I'll just wait and see what happens. He might be good. I'm a little skeptical, but there's enough interest in him he can be traded.

jhns
01-05-2011, 08:41 AM
Because he's a really, really, REALLY good quarterback, as close to pro-ready as you can get? Maybe?

Because Tebow is still a project whose windup costs him 5-6 completions PER GAME and who makes some really poor decisions?

Because it's a quarterback league?

If you don't know why people might want to pick a quarterback who can come in and contribute immediately at a reasonably high level, and has the pro potential to grow into a perennial all-pro, then you're dumber than all of us thought. And that's pretty dumb already.

That will sure help the problem that has kept this team down for the last 10+ years! Who cares about the franchises worst ever defense? We can have another new QB!

Who cares what people think about him? The next Manning comes out every year, only they are never even close to as good as people predict.

A rookie Tebow outplayed Orton. A QB that you defended as playing well...

Ray Finkle
01-05-2011, 08:42 AM
wow, you pulled a Palin with that word, I applaud you sir

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Music/Pix/pictures/2008/02/06/standingovation.jpg

thank you and Elusive KO....

I try....I try....

srphoenix
01-05-2011, 08:44 AM
please let it be so, if we could pick up even an additional second let alone another first we could be looking at:

2 high 1sts
3 2nds (one from orton)
1 3rd


This would go a huge way in making us a dominant defense again and possibly even allowing Tebow some more offensive weapons to work with.

Just think, Peterson, Paea, Watt, and others all in one draft!!!!

Que
01-05-2011, 08:44 AM
No you do not. You trade down and thank the Panthers.

This. Or you take him and trade him to the Vikes or AZ for a bunch of defensive talent.

Pony Boy
01-05-2011, 08:44 AM
If he's on the board you have to take him.

If Carolina doesn't take him they will get a kings ransom for the pick so either way he won't be there at #2

Hogan11
01-05-2011, 08:44 AM
Because he's a really, really, REALLY good quarterback, as close to pro-ready as you can get? Maybe?

Because Tebow is still a project whose windup costs him 5-6 completions PER GAME and who makes some really poor decisions?

Because it's a quarterback league?

If you don't know why people might want to pick a quarterback who can come in and contribute immediately at a reasonably high level, and has the pro potential to grow into a perennial all-pro, then you're dumber than all of us thought. And that's pretty dumb already.

It makes sense, but you're going to have a very hard sell with a majority of the fanbase already emotionally sold out on Tebow.

I can see going both ways on Luck. It's damned if you do and damned if don't situation.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 08:45 AM
That will sure help the problem that has kept this team down for the last 10+ years! Who cares about the franchises worst ever defense? We can have another new QB!

Who cares what people think about him? The next Manning comes out every year, only they are never even close to as good as people predict.

A rookie Tebow outplayed Orton. A QB that you defended as playing well...

I'm not sure how familiar you actually are with the National Football League, but there's more than one round in the draft.

OH, you were saying? Right. "DERP." We know. "Derp," indeed, jizz.

jhns
01-05-2011, 08:50 AM
I'm not sure how familiar you actually are with the National Football League, but there's more than one round in the draft.

OH, you were saying? Right. "DERP." We know. "Derp," indeed, jizz.

Yeah, and the first 4 picks should go to defense. It is also much easier to pick superior talent in the top 5 than in the 4th.... I know this is over your head though. We should just continue doing what we have done in the past as a franchise. The failure has been fun!

Rohirrim
01-05-2011, 08:54 AM
If Luck actually does come out and the Panthers pass on him (which would go down as one of the stupidest moves in NFL history) then it's a no-brainer. You take Luck, trade Tebow to Buffalo for all their picks, then take Fairley and more defense, and climb out of the ****ing hole. No ****ing brainer.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 08:54 AM
Yeah, and the first 4 picks should go to defense. It is also much easier to pick superior talent in the top 5 than in the 4th.... I know this is over your head though. We should just continue doing what we have done in the past as a franchise. The failure has been fun!

Maybe it's over my head. Maybe I think a pro-style QB with REALLY low bust potential is a better pick than taking a big defensive lineman in the early first who will take years to develop and may not develop at all.

Maybe it's better to reach for defense instead of taking a near sure-thing at QB.

Maybe.

Or maybe "DERRRRRRRP," like you said.

Kaylore
01-05-2011, 08:55 AM
Carolina won't tip their hand until they have hired their new coach.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 08:55 AM
If Luck actually does come out and the Panthers pass on him (which would go down in history as one of the stupidest moves in NFL history) then it's a no-brainer. You take Luck, trade Tebow to Buffalo for all their picks, then take Fairley and more defense, and climb out of the ****ing hole. No ****ing brainer.

THANK you. Yes. This.

Is Luck a Christian? If not, Llama won't be on board.

Rohirrim
01-05-2011, 08:56 AM
THANK you. Yes. This.

Is Luck a Christian? If not, Llama won't be on board.

And every year you send flowers to the Panther's front office. ;D

jhns
01-05-2011, 08:59 AM
Maybe it's over my head. Maybe I think a pro-style QB with REALLY low bust potential is a better pick than taking a big defensive lineman in the early first who will take years to develop and may not develop at all.

Maybe it's better to reach for defense instead of taking a near sure-thing at QB.

Maybe.

Or maybe "DERRRRRRRP," like you said.

LOL

Yeah, there are no good defensive prospects! The QB is a sure thing!

So you have only followed this league for... what? Two years now?

Sorry but this team needs to address the defense with as many resources as it can. It doesn't matter if you like Tebow or Orton. It doesn't matter if you like the o line or receivers. We have the franchises worst ever defense. Making excuses to pick offense early every year is the reason this franchise looks so pathetic right now. So what do you suggest? Continue the failure!

Homer Simpson
01-05-2011, 08:59 AM
This is not news, nor is Denver's decade long need for a defense. In sure 3 first round draft choice QBs will fix that though. Doh!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 09:02 AM
And every year you send flowers to the Panther's front office. ;D

Every year? ****, I'd do it every week.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 09:03 AM
LOL

Yeah, there are no good defensive prospects! The QB is a sure thing!

So you have only followed this league for... what? Two years now?

Sorry but this team needs to address the defense with as many resources as it can. It doesn't matter if you like Tebow or Orton. It doesn't matter if you like the o line or receivers. We have the franchises worst ever defense. Making excuses to pick offense early every year is the reason this franchise looks so pathetic right now. So what do you suggest? Continue the failure!

My, my. You are simple.

TheReverend
01-05-2011, 09:04 AM
how many times is Lombardi right? He's post/speaks with a vagueidity (new word btw) that allows him to always appear in the know.

It's only not a word because ambiguity already has that covered....

Gutless Drunk
01-05-2011, 09:04 AM
Josina Anderson is not impressed... I think?

http://twitter.com/JosinaAnderson/statuses/22160143487598592

27838

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 09:07 AM
Consider: We've had a shutdown corner for years now. How's that working out?

Consider: The only defensive player worth taking at 2 is Patrick Peterson. He is a corner. A shutdown one. Every other defensive player would be a reach, and we'd be overpaying for what we'd get.

Consider: Luck is as close to a can't miss player as there is. If he's there at 2, by some miracle, you're getting a DISCOUNT to get a franchise QB.

Consider: This defense won't be fixed in any one draft.

Consider: The improvement of the Rams thanks to the drafting of a franchise QB.
They are in a weak division as well. They nearly took the division thanks to the play of their quarterback -- and a defense that has been built over several off-seasons.

I think the hyperbole is thick with this argument, but if Luck is there at 2, you take him. Period. I don't think he would be, and I don't want to mortgage the future to get him. But if he's there, you pull the trigger.

jhns
01-05-2011, 09:09 AM
My, my. You are simple.

Hey, I'm sure most are on your side. We all like a shiney new toy at QB every other year more than watching a good team be put together.

Dedhed
01-05-2011, 09:09 AM
Because he's a really, really, REALLY good quarterback, as close to pro-ready as you can get? Maybe?

Because Tebow is still a project whose windup costs him 5-6 completions PER GAME and who makes some really poor decisions?

Because it's a quarterback league?

If you don't know why people might want to pick a quarterback who can come in and contribute immediately at a reasonably high level, and has the pro potential to grow into a perennial all-pro, then you're dumber than all of us thought. And that's pretty dumb already.

Overall this is a pretty weak take. Regardless of Luck's "readiness", he's going to make at least as many poor decisions as Tebow, who made better decisions in his first starts than the "Pro ready" Bradford or McCoy or Clausen.

Saying Tebow's motion costs him 5-6 completions per game is just fluff subjective rhetoric.

It is a QB league, and Tebow is one of the greatest college QBs ever. He's showed, for anyone with an ounce of objectivity, that he is more than capable of "contribut[ing] immediately at a reasonably high level", and that his college success seems to translate to the NFL field. Luck has not proven a thing at the NFL level, and there are just as many "pro-ready" QBs with his credentials who have flopped in the NFL.

If you can't recognize why you wouldn't draft a QB in the first round a year after you just did, when that pick has flashed potential and you have an historically poor defense, then you probably should't be commenting on anyone's intelligence.

Rohirrim
01-05-2011, 09:13 AM
A QB with Luck's skill set hasn't come out of college since Payton. You take him, trade Tebow, and don't look back, without involving yourself in a bunch of silly little arguments.

jhns
01-05-2011, 09:13 AM
Consider: We've had a shutdown corner for years now. How's that working out?

Consider: The only defensive player worth taking at 2 is Patrick Peterson. He is a corner. A shutdown one. Every other defensive player would be a reach, and we'd be overpaying for what we'd get.

Consider: Luck is as close to a can't miss player as there is. If he's there at 2, by some miracle, you're getting a DISCOUNT to get a franchise QB.

Consider: This defense won't be fixed in any one draft.

Consider: The improvement of the Rams thanks to the drafting of a franchise QB.
They are in a weak division as well. They nearly took the division thanks to the play of their quarterback -- and a defense that has been built over several off-seasons.

I think the hyperbole is thick with this argument, but if Luck is there at 2, you take him. Period. I don't think he would be, and I don't want to mortgage the future to get him. But if he's there, you pull the trigger.

If you don't want the corner and Luck is so great, I'm sure you could easily trade down a few spots and pick up a ton of extra resources.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 09:17 AM
Overall this is a pretty weak take. Regardless of Luck's "readiness", he's going to make at least as many poor decisions as Tebow, who made better decisions in his first starts than the "Pro ready" Bradford or McCoy or Clausen.

Saying Tebow's motion costs him 5-6 completions per game is just fluff subjective rhetoric.

It is a QB league, and Tebow is one of the greatest college QBs ever. He's showed, for anyone with an ounce of objectivity, that he is more than capable of "contribut[ing] immediately at a reasonably high level", and that his college success seems to translate to the NFL field. Luck has not proven a thing at the NFL level, and there are just as many "pro-ready" QBs with his credentials who have flopped in the NFL.

If you can't recognize why you wouldn't draft a QB in the first round a year after you just did, when that pick has flashed potential and you have an historically poor defense, then you probably should't be commenting on anyone's intelligence.

In the fourth quarter against SD alone, Tebow's windup cost him three completions. I counted them. Thinking that couldn't be right, I counted them again. He targets his receiver, starts his windup, and the cornerback is given a heads up and is allowed to start breaking on the ball. Defensive linemen see that windup and get their hands up.

Go watch the fourth quarter again and tell me Tebow's long, looping windup didn't cost him three on-target passes.

I have my questions about Tebow. I wish he was better than he is, because he's a Bronco and I like him. But I have questions and doubts, and I wonder about his readiness as a QB.

He actually looked BEHIND HIM before winding up and throwing a couple times in the fourth. Looking BEHIND him before throwing? My god. That's not good.

And my main concern is that, a year after hiring a coach SPECIFICALLY TO SHORTEN HIS WINDUP, he's still showing the same problems with said windup.

This is an issue. Maybe it's not for you, but it is for me.

And while I understand not wanting to draft another QB -- it's the side of the fence I was on for a month now -- if Luck is there at 2, and I'm the GM of the Denver Broncos, I take him. Period. I don't move up in the draft to take him, and I don't trade any picks to Carolina to get him because we do have too many other needs. But if he's there at 2...

Of course all of this is moot. I think, like us, Carolina would be ****ing stupid to pass up on Luck, and they won't.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 09:18 AM
If you don't want the corner and Luck is so great, I'm sure you could easily trade down a few spots and pick up a ton of extra resources.

Probably true. And that's worth considering too, IF you think Tebow's skillset is pro-ready. I don't.

/shrug

I know that offends many people here, I just haven't seen what I've been hoping to see from Tebow.

srphoenix
01-05-2011, 09:21 AM
Can you imagine how horrible this defense would have been the last couple years if we had to worry about covering the entire field on every down rather than letting champ shut down half of the field and then still failing miserably on the other half. Look at the Jets rhetoric before the season with Revis, they basically said, we need him signed because our defense operates based on the theory that we only to worry about covering half of the field, thus we can blitz heavily.

This is a big reason why Doom was so effective last year. The DC could let him blitz on every down because he knew he had his shutdown corner dominiating half the playing field and could thus shift resources to blitzing and covering the other half.

Rohirrim
01-05-2011, 09:21 AM
Fortunately, I have no concerns regarding this argument at all. If Luck comes out and the Panthers are so monumentally stupid that they pass on him, I guarantee you, Elway will be up to that podium himself in about one millisecond to put a Broncos hat on him. I saw Elway standing on those sidelines as Luck was taking Cal apart, making that little whistling face where you could tell he's thinking, "Man, what I couldn't do with this kid on the Broncos."

Dedhed
01-05-2011, 09:22 AM
Consider: We've had a shutdown corner for years now. How's that working out?Pretty well. Most #1 WRs don't come close to their production against Champ. If we could say the same about the #2 WR we'd look pretty solid.

Consider: The only defensive player worth taking at 2 is Patrick Peterson. He is a corner. A shutdown one. Every other defensive player would be a reach, and we'd be overpaying for what we'd get.Which is why you don't pass on Peterson.

Consider: Luck is as close to a can't miss player as there is. If he's there at 2, by some miracle, you're getting a DISCOUNT to get a franchise QB.Consider that we may already have a franchise QB. One who was far more successful in college than Luck, and one who has proven far more than Luck at the NFL level.

Consider: This defense won't be fixed in any one draft.Another reason you take Peterson.

Consider: The improvement of the Rams thanks to the drafting of a franchise QB.Consider that there are far more factors to the improvement of the Rams than Bradford. Years worth of high draft choices will do that for any team. Consider the team's improvement thanks to starting Tebow (Avg'd 25 points/game vs 16 with Orton)



I think the hyperbole is thick with this argument, but if Luck is there at 2, you take him. Period. I don't think he would be, and I don't want to mortgage the future to get him. But if he's there, you pull the trigger.I'm fine with taking Luck at #2 and then trading him for a King's ransom, but trading Luck in the bush with Tebow in hand would be a bad idea, and not just proverbially.

Dedhed
01-05-2011, 09:25 AM
Can you imagine how horrible this defense would have been the last couple years if we had to worry about covering the entire field on every down rather than letting champ shut down half of the field and then still failing miserably on the other half. Look at the Jets rhetoric before the season with Revis, they basically said, we need him signed because our defense operates based on the theory that we only to worry about covering half of the field, thus we can blitz heavily.

This is a big reason why Doom was so effective last year. The DC could let him blitz on every down because he knew he had his shutdown corner dominiating half the playing field and could thus shift resources to blitzing and covering the other half.Yeah, I thinks it's a completely backwards argument to say that CBs aren't valuable because our defense has been terrible with a great CB on the roster.

If you imagine this defense without Champ, it would be hard to imagine winning a game over the last 5 years. That's value.

srphoenix
01-05-2011, 09:25 AM
Probably true. And that's worth considering too, IF you think Tebow's skillset is pro-ready. I don't.

/shrug

I know that offends many people here, I just haven't seen what I've been hoping to see from Tebow.

Rivers throws a javelin, Favre's release has always been "not right", Steve young's release was bizarre, even Elway was credited as having a strange release when compared to Marino. Face it, the release is something pundits focus on a hell of a lot more than the NFL does.

In fact in many cases it's the other way around. Steve Young and others have repeatedly said, don't worry about the release, just continue to do what works to get the ball downfield. Orton had a pretty release, but Tebow throws a better ball, and Tebow has the pocket presence and athleticism to throw on the run and avoid sacks, something Orton's pretty release could never do.

MrPeepers
01-05-2011, 09:26 AM
Yes, he has his bags packed but it's not offical yet

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/40926515/ns/sports-college_football/

The University of Michigan fired Rich Rodriguez as head coach on Tuesday, days after the Wolverines dropped to 15-22 overall during the coach's three-year tenure, according to the Detroit News.

jhns
01-05-2011, 09:26 AM
Probably true. And that's worth considering too, IF you think Tebow's skillset is pro-ready. I don't.

/shrug

I know that offends many people here, I just haven't seen what I've been hoping to see from Tebow.

I have said this already but Tebow is not part of my argument. We have gone through multiple QBs and had pretty good offenses with all of them. Every year it is the defense that holds this team down and most every offseason "we need a RB, we need a receiver, we need a QB, we need o line help". Then the season comes, the offence plays pretty good football and the defense fails completely. Everyone claims we need to pick defense at the top of the draft and focus on it in free agency. Then the draft comes around and the cycle repeats. We need this offensive player!

I don't really care that the fans haven't learne their lesson. I'm just hopeing the front office has. We are in desperate need of defense. We need pretty much every position on defense. It would be nice if we could get some real talent on defense.

Anyways, it is still funny how you hate on Tebow and defended Orton. Tebow outplayed Orton and he is a project rookie. We can sure listen to you when it comes to QBs....

snowspot66
01-05-2011, 09:27 AM
In the fourth quarter against SD alone, Tebow's windup cost him three completions. I counted them. Thinking that couldn't be right, I counted them again. He targets his receiver, starts his windup, and the cornerback is given a heads up and is allowed to start breaking on the ball. Defensive linemen see that windup and get their hands up.

Go watch the fourth quarter again and tell me Tebow's long, looping windup didn't cost him three on-target passes.

I have my questions about Tebow. I wish he was better than he is, because he's a Bronco and I like him. But I have questions and doubts, and I wonder about his readiness as a QB.

He actually looked BEHIND HIM before winding up and throwing a couple times in the fourth. Looking BEHIND him before throwing? My god. That's not good.

And my main concern is that, a year after hiring a coach SPECIFICALLY TO SHORTEN HIS WINDUP, he's still showing the same problems with said windup.

This is an issue. Maybe it's not for you, but it is for me.

And while I understand not wanting to draft another QB -- it's the side of the fence I was on for a month now -- if Luck is there at 2, and I'm the GM of the Denver Broncos, I take him. Period. I don't move up in the draft to take him, and I don't trade any picks to Carolina to get him because we do have too many other needs. But if he's there at 2...

Of course all of this is moot. I think, like us, Carolina would be ****ing stupid to pass up on Luck, and they won't.

His windup didn't cost him three passes.

It hasn't cost him any passes. His lack of reps and not being comfortable with his receivers cost him throws. He threw too late. That is not a product of his windup, which is only a fraction of a second longer at most, but a product of him not starting the throw soon enough. He threw to the receiver and not the spot. A very common rookie mistake. He had lots of time on those throws and he took all that time and more and that resulted in the incompletions. He needs to speed up his decision making process.

I don't know why you keep harping on the throwing motion. You play it up like it's some horrible multiple second longer throwing motion but it's not. It's fractions of one second. It will not effect his success one way or another. Him getting the mental aspects of playing QB in the NFL will determine his success or failure. Just like every other talented prospect who has all the physical tools and just like Luck when he gets in the league.

Jesterhole
01-05-2011, 09:48 AM
If he's on the board you have to take him.

I agree, but only as trade bait.

TonyR
01-05-2011, 09:52 AM
If Rich Rodriguez is fired Harbaugh will go to Michigan...

Though its still unclear where Stanford coach Jim Harbaugh will be coaching in 2011, its becoming clear where he wont be going.

Michigan.

Word first emerged at the Big Lead earlier this week, prompting Michael Rosenberg of the Detroit Free Press to drop a deuce on the story before arguably swiping it without attribution.

On Tuesday night, Jims brother (who if youre just beginning to follow football coaches the Baltimore Ravens) talked about the situation during his weekly Baltimore radio show.

I dont know what hes going to do, John Harbaugh said, via Ken Murray of the Baltimore Sun. I think the Michigan thing is done now. I dont think hes interested in doing that, which is hard for him because he loves Michigan. But it says a lot about Stanford and well just see what happens.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/05/john-harbaugh-confirms-that-his-brother-isnt-heading-to-michigan/


And Rodriguez is now officially out.

Embattled Michigan football coach Rich Rodriguez was fired Wednesday after a 15-22 record in three years at Michigan and a handful of NCAA violations that have stained the once-proud program.

The school confirmed that Rodriguez had been let go. Athletic director Dave Brandon is scheduled to meet with reporters at 12:30 p.m. ET, and a players meeting is scheduled for later in the day.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5991296

bronco militia
01-05-2011, 09:53 AM
Carolina can still draft Luck and trade him later after the new CBA is worked out. Untilthen, the Panthers don't have to worry about paying

snowspot66
01-05-2011, 09:55 AM
Carolina can still draft Luck and trade him later after the new CBA is worked out. Untilthen, the Panthers don't have to worry about paying

Or they can just trade the pick to Buffalo, Arizona, or San Francisco for a premium.

Cito Pelon
01-05-2011, 10:00 AM
Luck looked shaky at times in the Orange Bowl. Had a horrible INT and nearly another two. He looked good at times also. I didn't see tremendous arm strength at all, and it wasn't all that complex of an offense he was running. He appears to be overhyped to me at this point in his career.

Rohirrim
01-05-2011, 10:04 AM
More likely, I think Luck stays for another year at Stanford (and maybe Harbaugh stays too) and the Panthers are screwed. I guess then, they would take Green.

misturanderson
01-05-2011, 10:13 AM
Luck looked shaky at times in the Orange Bowl. Had a horrible INT and nearly another two. He looked good at times also. I didn't see tremendous arm strength at all, and it wasn't all that complex of an offense he was running. He appears to be overhyped to me at this point in his career.

That INT was clearly not his fault and even if it was, it was hardly horrible. 2 feet further back and his slow-ass receiver would have caught it easily. If the receiver had tried a little harder to fight for the ball, it wouldn't have been intercepted.

Go back to the SD game and look at all of the throws Tebow threw way over everyone's head (usually not on purpose) or threw so late it was out of bounds and tell me that Luck makes those same mistakes. Hell, Tebow was struggling to throw screen passes accurately at the beginning of the game (which is especially odd considering how accurate his deep passes are).

Luck is CLEARLY a better pocket passing QB at this point. It really isn't debateable. He's more accurate, has better touch, a shorter motion and is better than or as good as Tebow in every other passing attribute you could ask for. He isn't as good as Tebow at running, but he also isn't Tom Brady/Peyton Manning immobile either.

That being said, Tebow makes something out of nothing in key situations which isn't something that can be taught. He also seems to be a better motivator and has shown some things in his passing game that makes it worthwhile to see what he has with another year or two of development. I also think that our defense is bad enough that we should probably trade Luck for additional defensive help or picks if he were to fall to us, but it would be a very tough decision.

bronco militia
01-05-2011, 10:19 AM
Or they can just trade the pick to Buffalo, Arizona, or San Francisco for a premium.

of course..

right now they are talking out of both sides of their mouths.

"we won't trade the pick"

"we won't pay $50 million".

misturanderson
01-05-2011, 10:20 AM
of course..

right now they are talking out of both sides of their mouths.

"we won't trade the pick"

"we won't pay $50 million".

Who's paying anyone $50 million? More like $10-20 million at most.

bronco militia
01-05-2011, 10:24 AM
Who's paying anyone $50 million? More like $10-20 million at most.

granted there is no CBA, this is what Bradford signed for last year

Last year, Matthew Stafford received a six year, $78 million dollar contract with $41.7 million in guarantees.


again, since there is no CBA, the Panthers can still draft Luck and hope for a new rookie wage scale and if not trade his rights later on.

misturanderson
01-05-2011, 10:27 AM
granted there is no CBA, this is what Bradford signed for last year

Last year, Matthew Stafford received a six year, $78 million dollar contract with $41.7 million in guarantees.


again, since there is no CBA, the Panthers can still draft Luck and hope for a new rookie wage scale and if not trade his rights later on.
There is literally no chance that a new CBA gets done without a rookie wage scale. Neither side has a problem with it. The details may change, but it's happening without a doubt.

bronco militia
01-05-2011, 10:31 AM
There is literally no chance that a new CBA gets done without a rookie wage scale. Neither side has a problem with it. The details may change, but it's happening without a doubt.

yes, but we don't know the numbers. I would be surprised to see the new wage scale be less than last years take for 1st rounders.

Rohirrim
01-05-2011, 10:38 AM
Well, there's always the Crazy Al option: The crypt keeper shoves a boatload of money at Harbaugh to bring him back and then sells out three drafts to trade up for Luck. ;D

Dedhed
01-05-2011, 10:42 AM
Luck is CLEARLY a better pocket passing QB at this point. It really isn't debateable. Sure if you limit the argument to an arbitrary qualitative impression you can come up with a way to make Luck a better looking QB.

You can do the same for Tebow.


He's more accurate
Tebow 66.4% career completion rate
Luck 63.5% completion rate
Hardly supports your argument
Luck has better touchSubjective rhetoric
Luck has a shorter motionYAY!

Luck is better than or as good as Tebow in every other passing attribute you could ask for.As long as it can't be measured and is instead some vague subjective thing like how cute his spiral is, right?

Tebow was better in absolutely every QB PASSING category that can be measured. Every single one.

Touchdowns, Rating, INTs, TD/INT ratio, yards, yards/year, yards/attempt.

You name whatever PASSING category you want, and Tebow was better.

Yet, because Luck has a prettier motion than Tebow, he's going to be a better NFL QB? Get real.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 10:56 AM
I'm not sure why people dismiss Tebow's motion as being an issue. It is an issue.

And yet, people want to compare Tebow to Mike Vick. Vick's motion is quick, and he gets the ball out in a cocaine heartbeat. Tebow doesn't.

We'll see how it works out, but Tebow's got to work on that and fix the damn thing if he wants to be successful. It's that simple.

Bronco Vixen
01-05-2011, 11:00 AM
More likely, I think Luck stays for another year at Stanford (and maybe Harbaugh stays too) and the Panthers are screwed. I guess then, they would take Green.

I think there is no way he stays another year with the inevitable rookie cap looming. They estimate he would lose $10-20 million by staying an extra year. Not sure anyone could pass on that.

Bronco Vixen
01-05-2011, 11:08 AM
Agreed. He's going to be the #1 pick whether it's this year or next. But if the Panthers have a shot at him and are stupid enough not to pull the trigger, shame on them.

They're going to take him if he's there:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/562624-carolina-panthers-will-draft-andrew-luck-1-overall-if-he-is-there?source=rss_teams_Carolina_Panthers

maven
01-05-2011, 11:13 AM
They're going to take him if he's there:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/562624-carolina-panthers-will-draft-andrew-luck-1-overall-if-he-is-there?source=rss_teams_Carolina_Panthers

bleacherreport should be banned from all sites.

BlaK-Argentina
01-05-2011, 11:14 AM
Luck looked shaky at times in the Orange Bowl. Had a horrible INT and nearly another two. He looked good at times also. I didn't see tremendous arm strength at all, and it wasn't all that complex of an offense he was running. He appears to be overhyped to me at this point in his career.

I wasn't impressed. I think he's definitely overhyped but I haven't seen him that much.

In any case, I've seen enough from Tebow and there's no way I'd pick a QB. Even if you don't want Peterson, you trade down!

Tombstone RJ
01-05-2011, 11:14 AM
If I'm a college QB with NFL potential, I declare now while there is no rookie salary cap. This crap about Luck staying at Stanford is just that, crap. Dude will be making millions and millions of dollars come April. He also stands to lose millions and millions of dollars if he stays in school. It don't take a diploma from Stanford to do the math here.

Luck will declare. So will Mallett, so will Locker, so will Newton... All are projected first round picks, if not top 10 first round picks. With the labor uncertainty and the proposed rook salary cap, it's silly to NOT declare.

boppool
01-05-2011, 11:21 AM
O.k. I get that Luck had a great career and big upside, but the college season is not even over yet and the draft is not until April.

A lot can happen between now and then. I remember people touting Colt McCoy as a top five pick at some point, not to mention Clausen was going to be the top pick.

Let's at least wait until after the combine before we dub him as the "next Peyton Manning."

Cito Pelon
01-05-2011, 11:22 AM
That INT was clearly not his fault and even if it was, it was hardly horrible. 2 feet further back and his slow-ass receiver would have caught it easily. If the receiver had tried a little harder to fight for the ball, it wouldn't have been intercepted.

Go back to the SD game and look at all of the throws Tebow threw way over everyone's head (usually not on purpose) or threw so late it was out of bounds and tell me that Luck makes those same mistakes. Hell, Tebow was struggling to throw screen passes accurately at the beginning of the game (which is especially odd considering how accurate his deep passes are).

Luck is CLEARLY a better pocket passing QB at this point. It really isn't debateable. He's more accurate, has better touch, a shorter motion and is better than or as good as Tebow in every other passing attribute you could ask for. He isn't as good as Tebow at running, but he also isn't Tom Brady/Peyton Manning immobile either.

That being said, Tebow makes something out of nothing in key situations which isn't something that can be taught. He also seems to be a better motivator and has shown some things in his passing game that makes it worthwhile to see what he has with another year or two of development. I also think that our defense is bad enough that we should probably trade Luck for additional defensive help or picks if he were to fall to us, but it would be a very tough decision.

Luck is a good pocket passer for a college QB, and good mobility, but I didn't see much velocity from him. Nor did I see the out passes, but I'm far from an expert about the guy. I imagine he's a decent pro prospect for a redshirt sophomore, but that in itself is a problem - so few games as a college QB.

I agree with your last sentence - if he does declare, and the Broncs pick him, he can be traded.

I like Tebow as a bird in the hand myself. I think he has winner written all over him. Dude is as much of a gamer as I've ever seen at QB and has some pretty good passing skills with the patterns I've seen him throw as a pro. I don't see much downside to Tebow, and he's shown that as a pro. As opposed to Luck, who's only shown it in college.

snowspot66
01-05-2011, 11:31 AM
I'm not sure why people dismiss Tebow's motion as being an issue. It is an issue.

And yet, people want to compare Tebow to Mike Vick. Vick's motion is quick, and he gets the ball out in a cocaine heartbeat. Tebow doesn't.

We'll see how it works out, but Tebow's got to work on that and fix the damn thing if he wants to be successful. It's that simple.

You keep saying this but nobody on Earth can prove it as true because it is literally no more than 1/4 of a second delay. It's probably significantly less than that.

If you go by the sports science piece on ESPN where they compared his motion in college to his "new" motion the difference is 60 milliseconds or approximately 1/20 of a second. There is not a single play that you can point out where a that fraction of a second was either the sole or most important deciding factor because everything that happens before the throw is significantly more important to determining the success of the play. Reading the defenses, knowing where the receiver will be and when, and ultimately where he places the ball when it is thrown among many other variables.

Rohirrim
01-05-2011, 11:31 AM
If I'm a college QB with NFL potential, I declare now while there is no rookie salary cap. This crap about Luck staying at Stanford is just that, crap. Dude will be making millions and millions of dollars come April. He also stands to lose millions and millions of dollars if he stays in school. It don't take a diploma from Stanford to do the math here.

Luck will declare. So will Mallett, so will Locker, so will Newton... All are projected first round picks, if not top 10 first round picks. With the labor uncertainty and the proposed rook salary cap, it's silly to NOT declare.

I assume that once the league agrees to a salary cap, it will apply to 2011 draftees. They won't write any contracts anyway while the CBA is being hashed out. None of these draftees should fool themselves into thinking they are going to wake up on May 1st with a checking account full of money.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 11:32 AM
You keep saying this but nobody on Earth can prove it as true because it is literally no more than 1/4 of a second delay. It's probably significantly less than that.

If you go by the sports science piece on ESPN where they compared his motion in college to his "new" motion the difference is 60 milliseconds or approximately 1/20 of a second. There is not a single play that you can point out where a that fraction of a second was either the sole or most important deciding factor because everything that happens before the throw is significantly more important to determining the success of the play. Reading the defenses, knowing where the receiver will be and when, and ultimately where he places the ball when it is thrown among many other variables.

And it's such a non-issue, he hired a coach specifically to work on this piece of his game.

Sorry, no sale.

jhns
01-05-2011, 11:36 AM
And it's such a non-issue, he hired a coach specifically to work on this piece of his game.

Sorry, no sale.

He outperformed Orton while being a project rookie. You defended Ortons play. How is it that the better QB (Tebow) is not playing to your standard when he clearly outplays the guy you said was doing good (who also has years of experience)? You don't even try making sense.

snowspot66
01-05-2011, 11:37 AM
And it's such a non-issue, he hired a coach specifically to work on this piece of his game.

Sorry, no sale.

Of course he did. It was the one thing all the draft analysts were picking on because they didn't have much else to grill him on. So what does he do? Goes out of his way to shut them up. Just like he's done with every other critic along the way. It's a non issue.

Tombstone RJ
01-05-2011, 11:37 AM
I assume that once the league agrees to a salary cap, it will apply to 2011 draftees. They won't write any contracts anyway while the CBA is being hashed out. None of these draftees should fool themselves into thinking they are going to wake up on May 1st with a checking account full of money.

very true, I have no idea how the new CBA will come to fruition and when it will go into effect. The players and owners may strike a deal immediately and put a cap on the 2011 draft, or, they may say the cap goes into effect for 2012 based on other parameters of the new CBA.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 11:38 AM
He outperformed Orton while being a project rookie. You defended Ortons play. How is it that the better QB (Tebow) is not playing to your standard when he clearly outplays the guy you said was doing good? You don't even try making sense.

HOW in the **** is this thread about Orton? Good lord.

We're not discussing Luck v. Orton, moron. We're discussing Luck v. Tebow. Try to catch up.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 11:40 AM
Of course he did. It was the one thing all the draft analysts were picking on because they didn't have much else to grill him on. So what does he do? Goes out of his way to shut them up. Just like he's done with every other critic along the way. It's a non issue.

Right, they just made up something to grill him on because they don't want the most sucked-off college player in history to be successful in the pro's.

Your logic is... wow. Really.

And in case you haven't noticed, despite working with that coach on the one thing that the analysts made up to hurt him, his windup is still there, still slow, and still costing him completions at the pro level.

So... what now?

jhns
01-05-2011, 11:44 AM
HOW in the **** is this thread about Orton? Good lord.

We're not discussing Luck v. Orton, moron. We're discussing Luck v. Tebow. Try to catch up.

No, actually the thread is about Luck...

Again, how can you claim Orton was playing good football and then claim Tebow won't make it playing the way he is playing? He just outplayed the guy you claimed was playing good football, doing it the way you claim will make him fail...

Way to make sense...

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 11:45 AM
No, actually the thread is about Luck...

Again, how can you claim Orton was playing good football and then claim Tebow won't make it playing the way he is playing? He just outplayed the guy you claimed was playing good football, doing it the way you claim will make him fail...

Way to make sense...

"No the thread is about Luck."

"Let's talk about Orton."

"I'm a ****ing retard" is the only quote you're missing.

I'm discussing one aspect of Timmy's game. I know you can't separate that sort of thing because you're absolutely out of this world stupid, but come the **** on. Orton has nothing to do with this discussion.

misturanderson
01-05-2011, 11:46 AM
yes, but we don't know the numbers. I would be surprised to see the new wage scale be less than last years take for 1st rounders.

Thanks for your input. It was idiotic, but you tried. There is LITERALLY NO POSSIBLE WAY that rookies get anywhere near how much they've gotten for the last 5 years. The veterans don't want them to, the owners sure as hell don't want them to. Those are the only two groups that are working on the new CBA. Your scenario is not going to happen.

Taco John
01-05-2011, 11:46 AM
Even if Luck came out and Carolina decided not to draft him, they'd trade down rather than simply passing on him.

snowspot66
01-05-2011, 11:48 AM
Right, they just made up something to grill him on because they don't want the most sucked-off college player in history to be successful in the pro's.

Your logic is... wow. Really.

And in case you haven't noticed, despite working with that coach on the one thing that the analysts made up to hurt him, his windup is still there, still slow, and still costing him completions at the pro level.

So... what now?

Except it's not. I've just disproven that but you keep bringing it up.

And yes they chose to grill him on it. Why? Because it's not perfect and pretty.

Try this on for size.


POSITIVES: Play-making quarterback with a great feel for the position and game. Sets in the pocket with solid footwork, does a terrific job selling the ball fakes then scans the field, buying as much time as possible. Patient, in total control of the offense and makes smart decisions. Natural looking off the safety, stands strong against the rush and works hard to make positive plays. Sharp and accurate in the short game; leads receivers on crossing patters, puts zip on intermediate throws and has a great sense of timing. Knows were the receivers are on the field and puts passes where only his wide outs can make the reception. Instinctive, possesses great football intelligence and a leader in every sense of the word. Turned in a tremendous performance at the Senior Bowl after an illustrious collegiate career

NEGATIVES: Has a terrible throwing motion that is best described as awkward. Pushes the ball or whips it from the side and falls out of his throws. Looks like he's throwing a heavy ball and constantly changes his point of release. Cannot drive the deep pass and not accurate down the field.

ANALYSIS: He is the type of prospect that will draw much debate and discussion leading up to and after draft day. While many criticize his mechanics and throwing fundamentals, you can not overlook his accuracy or ability to lead a team. May not be a quarterback for everyone and can only fit certain schemes, but a solid first-round selection that could quickly break into a starting lineup at the next level.


Who does that sound like? Because that's the draft profile for Philip Rivers.

They grilled Rivers on his throwing motion all damned day and they were wrong about it and every other aspect regarding the throwing motion. If it works it's fine.

I'll take a college career 67% passer and the most productive college player ever any day of the week.

Rohirrim
01-05-2011, 11:49 AM
Even if Luck came out and Carolina decided not to draft him, they'd trade down rather than simply passing on him.

You would think. Anything else would be lunatic. I'm sure Buffalo would be on the phone. Likely a whole bunch of other teams as well.

yerner
01-05-2011, 11:50 AM
I just refuse to believe that Andrew Luck will play football for free again. It would be a terrible mistake.

jhns
01-05-2011, 11:50 AM
And in case you haven't noticed, despite working with that coach on the one thing that the analysts made up to hurt him, his windup is still there, still slow, and still costing him completions at the pro level.


It is clear you don't understand what you are looking at. Even if it did cost him completions, we would have been something like the 6th best scoring team in the league if we averaged what we did with Tebow starting. That is with Tebow as a rookie. His throwing motion can't be hurting him that much.

t-diddy
01-05-2011, 11:51 AM
Right, they just made up something to grill him on because they don't want the most sucked-off college player in history to be successful in the pro's.

Your logic is... wow. Really.

And in case you haven't noticed, despite working with that coach on the one thing that the analysts made up to hurt him, his windup is still there, still slow, and still costing him completions at the pro level.

So... what now?

If what you say is true and cornerbacks are actually breaking on the ball when he starts his motion, then wouldn't pump fakes and double moves work all day long? I think you have a hard time distinguishing between slow release costing a completion and slow decision making costing a completion.

bronco militia
01-05-2011, 11:51 AM
There is LITERALLY NO POSSIBLE WAY that rookies get anywhere near how much they've gotten for the last 5 years.

I think that's a naive statement. I'll be surprised if it happens like you say it will

srphoenix
01-05-2011, 11:52 AM
This post deserves to be seen and read again and is the central point of this discussion. Repped.

Except it's not. I've just disproven that but you keep bringing it up.

And yes they chose to grill him on it. Why? Because it's not perfect and pretty.

Try this on for size.

POSITIVES: Play-making quarterback with a great feel for the position and game. Sets in the pocket with solid footwork, does a terrific job selling the ball fakes then scans the field, buying as much time as possible. Patient, in total control of the offense and makes smart decisions. Natural looking off the safety, stands strong against the rush and works hard to make positive plays. Sharp and accurate in the short game; leads receivers on crossing patters, puts zip on intermediate throws and has a great sense of timing. Knows were the receivers are on the field and puts passes where only his wide outs can make the reception. Instinctive, possesses great football intelligence and a leader in every sense of the word. Turned in a tremendous performance at the Senior Bowl after an illustrious collegiate career

NEGATIVES: Has a terrible throwing motion that is best described as awkward. Pushes the ball or whips it from the side and falls out of his throws. Looks like he's throwing a heavy ball and constantly changes his point of release. Cannot drive the deep pass and not accurate down the field.

ANALYSIS: He is the type of prospect that will draw much debate and discussion leading up to and after draft day. While many criticize his mechanics and throwing fundamentals, you can not overlook his accuracy or ability to lead a team. May not be a quarterback for everyone and can only fit certain schemes, but a solid first-round selection that could quickly break into a starting lineup at the next level.

Who does that sound like? Because that's the draft profile for Philip Rivers.

They grilled Rivers on his throwing motion all damned day and they were wrong about it and every other aspect regarding the throwing motion. If it works it's fine.

I'll take a college career 67% passer and the most productive college player ever any day of the week.

zdoor
01-05-2011, 11:52 AM
Even if Luck came out and Carolina decided not to draft him, they'd trade down rather than simply passing on him.

This

Dedhed
01-05-2011, 11:53 AM
Tebow's got to work on that and fix the damn thing if he wants to be successful. It's that simple.

No, it isn't that simple.

bronco militia
01-05-2011, 11:53 AM
Even if Luck came out and Carolina decided not to draft him, they'd trade down rather than simply passing on him.

like i posted earlier, the panthers have said they won't trade the pick.

snowspot66
01-05-2011, 11:54 AM
I think that's a naive statement. I'll be surprised if it happens like you say it will

At most they will allow them to have one more big pay day. I think the top pick will go no higher than 25 million with like 10 guaranteed. Maybe up that by 5 million if the owners really push the 18 game schedule.

jhns
01-05-2011, 11:55 AM
"No the thread is about Luck."

"Let's talk about Orton."

"I'm a ****ing retard" is the only quote you're missing.

I'm discussing one aspect of Timmy's game. I know you can't separate that sort of thing because you're absolutely out of this world stupid, but come the **** on. Orton has nothing to do with this discussion.

Well it is clear that you just aren't smart enough to comprehend much. Ill break it down for you. This thread is about Luck. You are talking about Tebow. You cry because I bring up Orton as you aren't discussing the topic of the thread. Good job...

Then what is your point about this one aspect of Tebows game? He can't be good? If that isn't it, then why should we be worried? If so, how is it that he isn't good as he outperforms a QB that you claim was playing good?

Again, you do not seem to have the ability to make sense.

zdoor
01-05-2011, 11:57 AM
The most obvious play on Tebow "release" was the D Thomas attempt that was picked. And, I agree with the above poster that it was the slow decision to throw that caused the pick, not the release. That's typical rookie stuff IMO.

As for Luck, I think he'll be a stud. That said, we need D. We're already invested in the QB position and our D has sucked forever. That has been our issue for a decade now and it needs to be addressed. We absolutely should not waste resources on another QB when we have needs all over our Defense and a good chance of getting several of them resolved.

misturanderson
01-05-2011, 11:58 AM
Sure if you limit the argument to an arbitrary qualitative impression you can come up with a way to make Luck a better looking QB.

You can do the same for Tebow.



Tebow 66.4% career completion rate
Luck 63.5% completion rate
Hardly supports your argument
Subjective rhetoric
YAY!

As long as it can't be measured and is instead some vague subjective thing like how cute his spiral is, right?

Tebow was better in absolutely every QB PASSING category that can be measured. Every single one.

Touchdowns, Rating, INTs, TD/INT ratio, yards, yards/year, yards/attempt.

You name whatever PASSING category you want, and Tebow was better.

Yet, because Luck has a prettier motion than Tebow, he's going to be a better NFL QB? Get real.
Luck also plays for a school with admission requirements that are exponentially more stringent than what UF's are. The offensive talent around him is a joke compared to what Tebow was surrounded with in college. Urban Meyer's system has so many short passes (ie, shovel passes and jump passes) that rely on spreading the defense and letting his superior athletes make plays after the catch that Tebow's statistics should be better.

All I had to do was watch the last game of each of the 2 QBs to know that Luck is more accurate on passes of under 20 yards (the majority of passes thrown), it's clear as night and day. Hopefully the crap Tebow was throwing was a result of it being cold in Denver on Sunday, but I have my doubts. He makes one absolutely awful pass for every good to great pass that he throws, something Luck doesn't do. I prefer consistency to up and down play (though Tebow seems to make the big plays at the right times at least).

Once again, I'm not saying that we should take Luck even if he were to drop to us out of some miracle scenario, but I'm also not blinded to the fact that he is a better pocket passer than Tebow. His statistics may not back that up, but he also plays for ****ing Stanford in a pro-style offense surrounded by guys that will be lucky to get drafted, not some SEC school in a gimmick offense surrounded by NFL 1st round talent like Tebow was.

jhns
01-05-2011, 11:58 AM
like i posted earlier, the panthers have said they won't trade the pick.

I'm not arguing that they will or won't because I haven't followed them but a lot of teams say one thing and do the other in the offseason. Sometimes teams claim they aren't willing to trade something just to drive up the price of that something.

Rohirrim
01-05-2011, 11:59 AM
Yep. Say the Panthers want to stick with Clausen, but pick up AJ Green. They simply call the Bills, who trade up to take Luck, knowing full well that the Broncos aren't taking Green, and the take Green at #3 and have some fat, extra picks. No brainer.

Of course, maybe somebody else want to trade with the Broncos for Green or Peterson?

Anyway, I think that every year some kind of fireworks are going to go off on draft day, but they never do.

The Panthers will take Luck, we'll take Peterson, the Bills will take, etc etc etc

zdoor
01-05-2011, 11:59 AM
like i posted earlier, the panthers have said they won't trade the pick.

Well, its not like teams say one thing and do another very often...

snowspot66
01-05-2011, 12:03 PM
The most obvious play on Tebow "release" was the D Thomas attempt that was picked. And, I agree with the above poster that it was the slow decision to throw that caused the pick, not the release. That's typical rookie stuff IMO.

As for Luck, I think he'll be a stud. That said, we need D. We're already invested in the QB position and our D has sucked forever. That has been our issue for a decade now and it needs to be addressed. We absolutely should not waste resources on another QB when we have needs all over our Defense and a good chance of getting several of them resolved.

I look at it this way. There are multiple ways he could have been successful on that play. If he leads Thomas another 12 or 18 inches it's a completion. If he makes the decision to throw before Thomas makes his break it's a completion. If Thomas runs a better route it's a completion.

snowspot66
01-05-2011, 12:09 PM
Luck also plays for a school with admission requirements that are exponentially more stringent than what UF's are. The offensive talent around him is a joke compared to what Tebow was surrounded with in college. Urban Meyer's system has so many short passes (ie, shovel passes and jump passes) that rely on spreading the defense and letting his superior athletes make plays after the catch that Tebow's statistics should be better.

All I had to do was watch the last game of each of the 2 QBs to know that Luck is more accurate on passes of under 20 yards (the majority of passes thrown), it's clear as night and day. Hopefully the crap Tebow was throwing was a result of it being cold in Denver on Sunday, but I have my doubts. He makes one absolutely awful pass for every good to great pass that he throws, something Luck doesn't do. I prefer consistency to up and down play (though Tebow seems to make the big plays at the right times at least).

Once again, I'm not saying that we should take Luck even if he were to drop to us out of some miracle scenario, but I'm also not blinded to the fact that he is a better pocket passer than Tebow. His statistics may not back that up, but he also plays for ****ing Stanford in a pro-style offense surrounded by guys that will be lucky to get drafted, not some SEC school in a gimmick offense surrounded by NFL 1st round talent like Tebow was.

In the history of college football there have been a lot of really good college QB's playing on a lot of teams loaded with top tier talent and out of all those players and teams only Tebow has put the that kind of production and it's not even close. That says something to me. And I'm not sure what crap throws you're talking about. He had a couple that weren't great but that's pretty standard even in the NFL. They can't all be strikes. Some days it's just an off day and for rookies off days are more common.

I'm not going to rag on Luck at all. I simply think we already have a prospect that has an opportunity to be a great QB. He has the same chance as Luck to be great. We need defense and bad. It currently has no chance at being great.

Cito Pelon
01-05-2011, 12:11 PM
I'm not sure why people dismiss Tebow's motion as being an issue. It is an issue.

And yet, people want to compare Tebow to Mike Vick. Vick's motion is quick, and he gets the ball out in a cocaine heartbeat. Tebow doesn't.

We'll see how it works out, but Tebow's got to work on that and fix the damn thing if he wants to be successful. It's that simple.

Tebow can be successful despite that elongated throwing motion he has at times. I agree that he should tighten it up, quicken it. I don't see a problem with doing that, it should be correctible with repetitions.

Cito Pelon
01-05-2011, 12:15 PM
I think there is no way he stays another year with the inevitable rookie cap looming. They estimate he would lose $10-20 million by staying an extra year. Not sure anyone could pass on that.

I think Luck will have to declare before the new CBA will be in place, so it's a tough decision for him.

strafen
01-05-2011, 12:21 PM
I think Luck will have to declare before the new CBA will be in place, so it's a tough decision for him.Isn't it by the 15th of this month when he has to declare?
I'm thinking it's the 15th of January, regardless...

Cito Pelon
01-05-2011, 12:22 PM
If what you say is true and cornerbacks are actually breaking on the ball when he starts his motion, then wouldn't pump fakes and double moves work all day long? I think you have a hard time distinguishing between slow release costing a completion and slow decision making costing a completion.

That would be a good thing for Tebow to work on. Along with quickening up the motion in general, it sure wouldn't hurt his game.

mhgaffney
01-05-2011, 12:34 PM
Yep. Say the Panthers want to stick with Clausen, but pick up AJ Green. They simply call the Bills, who trade up to take Luck, knowing full well that the Broncos aren't taking Green, and the take Green at #3 and have some fat, extra picks. No brainer.

Of course, maybe somebody else want to trade with the Broncos for Green or Peterson?

Anyway, I think that every year some kind of fireworks are going to go off on draft day, but they never do.

The Panthers will take Luck, we'll take Peterson, the Bills will take, etc etc etc

Hate to say it -- but this is right.

No way Denver will benefit if Carolina does not take Luck. Carolina will simply trade down past us.

Cito Pelon
01-05-2011, 12:34 PM
The most obvious play on Tebow "release" was the D Thomas attempt that was picked. And, I agree with the above poster that it was the slow decision to throw that caused the pick, not the release. That's typical rookie stuff IMO.

As for Luck, I think he'll be a stud. That said, we need D. We're already invested in the QB position and our D has sucked forever. That has been our issue for a decade now and it needs to be addressed. We absolutely should not waste resources on another QB when we have needs all over our Defense and a good chance of getting several of them resolved.

I agree. Denver has been at the top of the league in +20 yds against for most of the decade.

misturanderson
01-05-2011, 12:37 PM
I think Luck will have to declare before the new CBA will be in place, so it's a tough decision for him.

It literally doesn't matter. I don't know why people keep perpetuating this myth that there isn't going to be a rookie wage cap by the time the players drafted in 2011 get signed.

It is an inevitabilty that the new CBA will have a rookie wage cap and no players, including rookies, that haven't been signed to a deal by the end of the season will be signed before the new CBA is in place. Anyone that didn't declare for last year's draft lost money, they are **** out of luck at this point. Anyone that wasn't eligible for last year's draft were screwed from the get go. There is no chance that any rookies will be signed in the near future without a cap on rookie wages. None, Nada, Zip.

Play2win
01-05-2011, 12:40 PM
That would be a good thing for Tebow to work on. Along with quickening up the motion in general, it sure wouldn't hurt his game.

Did you see the QUICK pump fake to the WR screen (to the right) he did just before he flipped it out to the left for Buckhalter that went for the TD against Houston? Real strong and fast (fast twitch), and completely manipulated the whole Titan's defense. If he can build on stuff like, look out!!!

Play2win
01-05-2011, 12:45 PM
I agree. Denver has been at the top of the league in +20 yds against for most of the decade.

Seems like ever since Al Wilson went down. Thats when are run defense went to ****, and everything else on D followed suit. Shows how important a killer MLB is. (and of course DLINE)

misturanderson
01-05-2011, 12:46 PM
In the history of college football there have been a lot of really good college QB's playing on a lot of teams loaded with top tier talent and out of all those players and teams only Tebow has put the that kind of production and it's not even close. That says something to me. And I'm not sure what crap throws you're talking about. He had a couple that weren't great but that's pretty standard even in the NFL. They can't all be strikes. Some days it's just an off day and for rookies off days are more common.

I'm not going to rag on Luck at all. I simply think we already have a prospect that has an opportunity to be a great QB. He has the same chance as Luck to be great. We need defense and bad. It currently has no chance at being great.

Plenty of QB's have put up the type of production that Tebow put up, and then some. Bradford threw circles around Tebow, which is why he won the Heisman over Tebow. There has never been as good a dual threat in college perhaps (though Newton is making a case as far as single-season production), or a player that has won so many games or awards as a QB, but Tebow wasn't even close to the most accomplished passer from last year's draft class, let alone NCAA history.

McCoy even had better passing numbers in a similarly gimmicky offense surrounded by top talent.

Inkana7
01-05-2011, 12:48 PM
Plenty of QB's have put up the type of production that Tebow put up, and then some. Bradford threw circles around Tebow, which is why he won the Heisman over Tebow. There has never been as good a dual threat in college perhaps (though Newton is making a case as far as single-season production), or a player that has won so many games or awards as a QB, but Tebow wasn't even close to the most accomplished passer from last year's draft class, let alone NCAA history.

McCoy even had better passing numbers in a similarly gimmicky offense surrounded by top talent.

Might wanna look at the stats again, bucko.

tsiguy96
01-05-2011, 12:52 PM
Plenty of QB's have put up the type of production that Tebow put up, and then some. Bradford threw circles around Tebow, which is why he won the Heisman over Tebow. There has never been as good a dual threat in college perhaps (though Newton is making a case as far as single-season production), or a player that has won so many games or awards as a QB, but Tebow wasn't even close to the most accomplished passer from last year's draft class, let alone NCAA history.

McCoy even had better passing numbers in a similarly gimmicky offense surrounded by top talent.

yea, you are completely wrong in terms of production. no one has matched tebow.

snowspot66
01-05-2011, 12:53 PM
Plenty of QB's have put up the type of production that Tebow put up, and then some. Bradford threw circles around Tebow, which is why he won the Heisman over Tebow. There has never been as good a dual threat in college perhaps (though Newton is making a case as far as single-season production), or a player that has won so many games or awards as a QB, but Tebow wasn't even close to the most accomplished passer from last year's draft class, let alone NCAA history.

McCoy even had better passing numbers in a similarly gimmicky offense surrounded by top talent.

Over the course of a career? An entire package like that? Never been done before. That's what I mean. And I would hardly say Bradford threw circles around Tebow unless you mean Bradford threw the ball almost 200 more times than Tebow in the one year he had significantly more yards than Tebow. Tebow easily holds his own or outdid Bradford in all the averages even in that one year.

misturanderson
01-05-2011, 12:54 PM
yea, you are completely wrong in terms of production. no one has matched tebow.

50 TDs to 8 Ints by Bradford with a better passer rating in 2008 says otherwise. Maybe nobody has outperformed him over 4 years, but that is just because the guys that could outperform him didn't stay in school 4 years.

Whatever. I don't care, you guys can think what you want. Tebow's accuracy was beyond questionable on Sunday and that worried me a lot. I still don't think we need to draft another QB, but to act like Tebow's game isn't questionable after the poor performance he put up, especially in the 1st half, last week is blind homerism.

He isn't even the one that shifted the momentum of that game. Cassius Vaughn was.

Inkana7
01-05-2011, 12:56 PM
50 TDs to 8 Ints by Bradford with a better passer rating in 2008 says otherwise. Maybe nobody has outperformed him over 4 years, but that is just because the guys that could outperform him didn't stay in school 4 years.

Tebow attempts, 2008: 314
Bradford attempts, 2008: 483

HURF DURF STATZ

misturanderson
01-05-2011, 01:03 PM
Tebow attempts, 2008: 314
Bradford attempts, 2008: 483

HURF DURF STATZ

9.63 Attempts rushing or passing per TD
10.18 Attempts rushing or passing per TD
Which do you think is Tebow's? I'll give you a hint, it's the larger number. Bradford Scored the same number of TDs on a lower number of total attempts. Since you guys love average stats so much. And those are in their best years statistically. If I compared them both in 2008 it looks even worse for Tebow.

Inkana7
01-05-2011, 01:05 PM
9.63 Attempts rushing or passing per TD
10.18 Attempts rushing or passing per TD
Which do you think is Tebow's? I'll give you a hint, it's the larger number. Bradford Scored the same number of TDs on a lower number of total attempts. Since you guys love average stats so much.

I don't see why you're comparing apples to oranges here, dude. Different teams, different offenses, and may I remind you that Tebow beat Bradford when it mattered most?

EDIT: especially when the difference is .55 attempts LOL

Kaylore
01-05-2011, 01:06 PM
Then I would pull a chargers and tell the Panthers we'll take Peterson if they trade back and they can negotiate for him from there.

misturanderson
01-05-2011, 01:06 PM
I don't see why you're comparing apples to oranges here, dude. Different teams, different offenses, and may I remind you that Tebow beat Bradford when it mattered most?

I'm just PROVING the point that it is questionable whether or not Tebow was the most accomplished NCAA QB over the course of a season. You guys don't thnk it is, while it clearly is. There is plenty to back up the idea that Tebow's best year wasn't as good as Bradford's. As a passer, it's not even close. Every single statistical passing category goes to Bradford except Interceptions (that includes averages).

Dedhed
01-05-2011, 01:15 PM
I'm also not blinded to the fact that he is a better pocket passer than Tebow.I'm not blind to the fact that Luck is a better pocket passer, but I'm not blinded by that fact Either. You are. Being a better passer has nothing to do with being a better QB.

Marino was by far a better pocket passer than Elway, would you make that trade? They are a million better "pocket passers" than Steve Young, not many better QBs.

If your take had any validity, Todd Marinovich would have been the best ever. All his pocket passing skills were off the charts. None of them make you a great QB.

Anyone can mix a drink, not many people can tend a bar.

Inkana7
01-05-2011, 01:16 PM
I'm just PROVING the point that it is questionable whether or not Tebow was the most accomplished NCAA QB over the course of a season. You guys don't thnk it is, while it clearly is. There is plenty to back up the idea that Tebow's best year wasn't as good as Bradford's. As a passer, it's not even close.

What makes Tebow great isn't solely his passing. I think that's the point being made..

Dedhed
01-05-2011, 01:16 PM
As a passer, it's not even close.

This is where your take utterly fails. You think passing is the only thing that matters.

Winning is the only thing that matters.

srphoenix
01-05-2011, 01:19 PM
9.63 Attempts rushing or passing per TD
10.18 Attempts rushing or passing per TD
Which do you think is Tebow's? I'll give you a hint, it's the larger number. Bradford Scored the same number of TDs on a lower number of total attempts. Since you guys love average stats so much. And those are in their best years statistically. If I compared them both in 2008 it looks even worse for Tebow.

the Big 12 was notorious for having $hit defenses that year as well while Tebow was playing against the SEC's defenses which were the best in the nation in 08.

misturanderson
01-05-2011, 01:25 PM
This is where you're take utterly fails. You think passing is the only thing that matters.

Winning is the only thing that matters.

A QB in today's NFL HAS to be able to pass effectively. This is not the 70's, 80's or 90's. There are too many rules in place that are of direct benefit to the pocket passers to be relying on someone that is sub-par in that aspect. And if we want to talk about winning, Tebow is currently at .333 as a starter in the NFL. He hasn't proven to be a winner in the NFL any more than Luck has.

He brought our team back against a weak-willed texans team that looked like the 2006-2008 Broncos. He may have made the other 2 games he started closer than they would have been otherwise, but he needs to start winning games in the 1st half if we're going to have success. Racking up garbage time points against prevent defenses doesn't prove anything if you don't win those games.

We'll see what he brings next year. I'm hoping that he improves his passing game because we need to be getting ahead of teams, not relying on come-from-behind victories where he runs for TDs on broken plays every week. It's exciting to watch, but it isn't how the best teams in the league got to where they are.

Inkana7
01-05-2011, 01:27 PM
Oh no we have a QB who can make plays from nothing he sucksssss

OrangeSe7en
01-05-2011, 01:29 PM
A QB in today's NFL HAS to be able to pass effectively. This is not the 70's, 80's or 90's. There are too many rules in place that are of direct benefit to the pocket passers to be relying on someone that is sub-par in that aspect. And if we want to talk about winning, Tebow is currently at .333 as a starter in the NFL. He hasn't proven to be a winner in the NFL any more than Luck has.

Another thing that teams have to do is be able to score TDs when the opportunities are there and not have to settle for field goals. Another benefit that Tebow provides is extending drives with his legs. And then, of course, theres the matter of performing in crunch time. We've seen Orton wet himself when it was crunch time on more than one occasion, whereas, Tebow has ralleyed the troops the past two games and brough the team back in crunch time.

Its valiant how you're trying to focus on one perceived weakness while ignoring demonstrated strengths.

Dedhed
01-05-2011, 01:30 PM
9.63 Attempts rushing or passing per TD
10.18 Attempts rushing or passing per TD
Which do you think is Tebow's? I'll give you a hint, it's the larger number. Bradford Scored the same number of TDs on a lower number of total attempts. Since you guys love average stats so much. And those are in their best years statistically. If I compared them both in 2008 it looks even worse for Tebow.
What happened when they played head-to-head for all the marbles?

misturanderson
01-05-2011, 01:30 PM
Oh no we have a QB who can make plays from nothing he sucksssss

I have never once said that he sucks, I'm just refuting this nonsense that he doesn't have major deficiencies in his passing game. MAJOR deficiencies. And so far his playmaking has won us 1 out of 3 games. I don't find that especially impressive. If he continues to improve significantly next year, which he should, then I'll be all aboard his bandwagon, but he hasn't proven anything except that he is exciting to watch. That isn't how you win superbowls. Ask Atlanta under Vick.

Dedhed
01-05-2011, 01:31 PM
A QB in today's NFL HAS to be able to pass effectively. This is not the 70's, 80's or 90's. There are too many rules in place that are of direct benefit to the pocket passers to be relying on someone that is sub-par in that aspect. And if we want to talk about winning, Tebow is currently at .333 as a starter in the NFL. He hasn't proven to be a winner in the NFL any more than Luck has.

Orton is a better pocket passer than Tebow.

misturanderson
01-05-2011, 01:33 PM
Another thing that teams have to do is be able to score TDs when the opportunities are there and not have to settle for field goals. Another benefit that Tebow provides is extending drives with his legs. And then, of course, theres the matter of performing in crunch time. We've seen Orton wet himself when it was crunch time on more than one occasion, whereas, Tebow has ralleyed the troops the past two games and brough the team back in crunch time.

Its valiant how you're trying to focus on one perceived weakness while ignoring demonstrated strengths.

I'm not focusing on one perceived weakness, I'm focusing on real weaknesses. I have admitted that Tebow has strengths, but he has a lot to prove still. I love watching him play, but that doesn't make him a GREAT, untouchable QB.

misturanderson
01-05-2011, 01:35 PM
Orton is a better pocket passer than Tebow.

And in his case, his lack of clutch plays, poor vocal leadership and lack of mobility make him a worse QB than Tebow. If Tebow could throw from the pocket as well as a healthy Orton, there would be no question that we wouldn't be looking for a new QB. He isn't though, so we might be.

I like that Tebow's strengths (mobility, desire to win and ability to improvise when plays break down) make him incredibly efficient in the red zone, on 3rd downs and in the 4th quarter, but he needs to prove that he can get our team to leads where we are just running out the clock at the end of the game if we are hoping to have success through a whole season. He has not played especially well in the 1st half in any of his games except against the raiders. That is a major problem. He has all of the intangibles that can take a good QB and make him great, but he lacks some of the basic skills to make a good QB. That is his problem and I hope that he can fix it because trading what we would have to in order to land Luck would be a mistake and I would rather root for Tebow than just about any other QB out there.

55CrushEm
01-05-2011, 01:55 PM
Oh no we have a QB who can make plays from nothing he sucksssss

:spit:

Dedhed
01-05-2011, 02:03 PM
And in his case, his lack of clutch plays, poor vocal leadership and lack of mobility make him a worse QB than Tebow.
And for all we know, Luck will be exactly the same; a good passer who lacks leadership and an ability to makes clutch plays.

If Tebow could throw from the pocket as well as a healthy Orton, there would be no question that we wouldn't be looking for a new QB.
The point you're failing to recognize is that he doesn't need to throw from the pocket as well as Orton or Luck to be a better QB.

misturanderson
01-05-2011, 02:08 PM
And for all we know, Luck will be exactly the same; a good passer who lacks leadership and an ability to makes clutch plays.


The point you're failing to recognize is that he doesn't need to throw from the pocket as well as Orton or Luck to be a better QB.

He does need to throw from the pocket better than he has so far if we're hoping to have any real success over the course of a season. We cannot rely on last quarter comebacks for all of our wins. Tebow needs to play better when he isn't going all out to get us back into the games that his poor play contributed to us being behind in. Hopefully he makes huge strides in that regards, but it is anything but a sure thing.

snowspot66
01-05-2011, 02:09 PM
I have never once said that he sucks, I'm just refuting this nonsense that he doesn't have major deficiencies in his passing game. MAJOR deficiencies. And so far his playmaking has won us 1 out of 3 games. I don't find that especially impressive. If he continues to improve significantly next year, which he should, then I'll be all aboard his bandwagon, but he hasn't proven anything except that he is exciting to watch. That isn't how you win superbowls. Ask Atlanta under Vick.

So 67% passing in college is a major deficiency? I don't get where the idea that Tebow is a bad passing QB comes from. It doesn't matter if he's as good as Luck or Bradford from the pocket as long as he's good and I don't think we've seen anything at any point in time that says he isn't.

misturanderson
01-05-2011, 02:18 PM
So 67% passing in college is a major deficiency? I don't get where the idea that Tebow is a bad passing QB comes from. It doesn't matter if he's as good as Luck or Bradford from the pocket as long as he's good and I don't think we've seen anything at any point in time that says he isn't.

No his NFL passing has shown major deficiencies. His inflated stats in college were a result of a great scheme with a gimmick passing game set up by a great running attack. He did it against a conference with good/great defenses, but his college stats haven't translated so far in his NFL starts.

He has made clutch plays with his legs, but I have seen as many or more absolute crap throws out of him (some of which our receivers have bailed him out of) as I've seen great ones. His deep ball is great, but those are low percentage passes even if they are perfectly thrown and can't make up the majority of the passes in an offense. If he shores up the short to intermediate part of his passing game I will have no issues with him, but that is his major weakness right now and is probably the most important part of a QB's game. If he were efficient in those throws we wouldn't have had to come back against the texans and we probably would've beaten the chargers.

How many NFL QBs are truly successful with a sub 60% completion rate in the NFL today? There are only 2 such QBs in the playoffs this year and they are hardly the reason their teams are where they are.

Dedhed
01-05-2011, 02:21 PM
He does need to throw from the pocket better than he has so far if we're hoping to have any real success over the course of a season.Of course he does. He's played 3 NFL games and he's had only 3 weeks of practice reps as a starter. So does Sam Bradford, so does Matt Stafford and every other young QB. It's absurd to think that he won't improve considerably in that department.


We cannot rely on last quarter comebacks.

Nor can we give up a chance to build the defense. We've done much better as a franchise relying on comebacks than we have ignoring the defense.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 02:24 PM
So 67% passing in college is a major deficiency? I don't get where the idea that Tebow is a bad passing QB comes from. It doesn't matter if he's as good as Luck or Bradford from the pocket as long as he's good and I don't think we've seen anything at any point in time that says he isn't.

To be fair, a lot of those passes were of the" hit a guy five yards from the los and let him make a play" variety. He was also playing with some of the better wrs in college football who could turn five yard passes into big gains.

I just don't see why its such a crime to question his mechanics and discuss a qb who has more polished skills for the position. Doesn't mean I hate tebow; I don't. I just think he hasn't shown so much that we should be measuring him for a gold jacket and making reservations for canton.

misturanderson
01-05-2011, 02:31 PM
Of course he does. He's played 3 NFL games and he's had only 3 weeks of practice reps as a starter. So does Sam Bradford, so does Matt Stafford and every other young QB. It's absurd to think that he won't improve considerably in that department.

The issue being that those guys have shown to be more accurate than Tebow with worse or equivalent supporting casts. I'm not saying that he can't improve, but he has more work to do than any of those guys you mentioned before he is even a serviceable pocket passer. 50% completion percentage is awful. Not OK, awful.
Nor can we give up a chance to build the defense. We've done much better as a franchise relying on comebacks than we have ignoring the defense.

No ****. That's what I've said in about half of my posts. Try reading everything I write in a post instead of the first line before replying.

I don't care who we have at QB, you need a top 10 scoring D (or a defense playing like one in the case of the 2006 colts) to win a SB. Only 3 teams have ever won a superbowl with a D that gave up 20 or more PPG in the regular season. Multiple teams have won with 2nd tier or lower QBs. It doesn't matter how good your QB is if your defense isn't top 10. Which is why I'm not advocating taking Luck, even if he were to drop to us. I simply said it would be a difficult decision.

A top tier QB however will get you to the playoffs year in and year out even if the defense is only middle of the pack. I'm just saying that Tebow is going to have to make great strides in his passing game to be that guy. I'm also refuting some of the unadulterated Tebow love where you guys believe that he has no deficiencies worth worrying about just because "he put up a 63% completion percentage in Urban Meyer's offense surrounded by superior talent." Ask Alex Smith how that worked out for him. Jesus Christ you people are touchy.

edog24
01-05-2011, 02:41 PM
I don't know where you guys are getting your material about Tebow causing these first half deficits. Look at our team. We have 90% bums on both sides of the ball. Tebow's accuracy is not the biggest issue this team faces.

The only reason we were somewhat competitive in the last three games is solely due to him making plays by himself.

Hell, on the Florida Gators type drive against the chargers I thought he might throw it to himself. If he is off here and there on throws we can live with it. We need to secure the trenches (oline/dline, running game) before we even start worrying about Tebow's accuracy.

Dedhed
01-05-2011, 02:43 PM
To be fair, a lot of those passes were of the" hit a guy five yards from the los and let him make a play" variety.
This is such a misnomer it's unreal. It's what every Tebow doubter says who never actually watched any Florida games while he was there.
He was also playing with some of the better wrs in college football who could turn five yard passes into big gains.
Yeah, Bradford had no talent around him. Luck had no running game to keep safeties and LBs in the box.

These takes are pitiful.

misturanderson
01-05-2011, 02:51 PM
I don't know where you guys are getting your material about Tebow causing these first half deficits. Look at our team. We have 90% bums on both sides of the ball. Tebow's accuracy is not the biggest issue this team faces.

Here's why:
Situation QBRat Comp Att Pct Yds Y/G Y/A TD Int
1st Half 66.9 15 31 48.4 222 N/A 7.2 2 2
2nd Half 91.3 26 51 51.0 432 N/A 8.5 3 1
A poor QB rating with sub-50% completion percentage and 1:1 TD:Int ratio.

And once again, don't put words into my mouth. I'm not saying that Tebow is a huge weakness for the team. Just that he needs to play SIGNIFICANTLY better next year if we are going to stop looking into upgrading the QB position.
The only reason we were somewhat competitive in the last three games is solely due to him making plays by himself.
We were competitive in the SD game because Cassius Vaughn ran back a TD on a kickoff. We didn't have a shot in hell before that happened. Buckhalter had almost as much to do with the comeback against the texans as Tebow did. Our receivers also made some incredible plays on some so-so to poor passes to bail Tebow out in every game so far (i.e., his TD in the raiders game, though it is somewhat offset by the drop by Ball). Tebow was not THE ONLY reason we were competitive. He was a big part of it, but far from THE ONLY reason.

Tombstone RJ
01-05-2011, 02:55 PM
Anyone who watched the Broncos this season (I'd say only about 50% of the OMane posters) knows that Tebow provided the team and the fans a huge spark. This is something Orton could not do, regardless of his abilities as the QB.

That alone is reason to give Tebow a shot at being the Broncos QBOTF.

misturanderson
01-05-2011, 02:58 PM
Anyone who watched the Broncos this season (I'd say only about 50% of the OMane posters) knows that Tebow provided the team and the fans a huge spark. This is something Orton could not do, regardless of his abilities as the QB.

That alone is reason to give Tebow a shot at being the Broncos QBOTF.

That and the fact that we need to upgrade pretty much every single defensive position and coach before even Peyton Manning or Tom Brady would be taking this team to the playoffs.

That still doesn't put Tebow's play above warranted criticism.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 03:01 PM
This is such a misnomer it's unreal. It's what every Tebow doubter says who never actually watched any Florida games while he was there.

Yeah, Bradford had no talent around him. Luck had no running game to keep safeties and LBs in the box.

These takes are pitiful.

So Tebow didn't play in a spread option offense? Strong take. Really. Like dis: :strong:

When did I say Bradford had no talent around him? Or Luck? Or anything like that?

Why do you defend Tebow's honor like you're his high school boyfriend? I've never seen such anger and venom from a Grateful Dead loving stoner before.

Fact is, both Bradford and Luck get the ball out faster than Tebow. IN MY OPINION (it okay if I have one of those?), it's something he must work on. I'm sorry your boyfriend needs you to take care of him daily to keep that evil Tebow-slurping media away from actually mentioning a weak point that could be worked on in his game.

My god. Please. Stop taking this personally.

snowspot66
01-05-2011, 03:02 PM
No his NFL passing has shown major deficiencies.

I keep hearing that but I never see any explanation. Also, rookies typically hover around a 55% completion rate. Bradford had a full offseason of reps and preseason games and over the course of the season he fluctuated wildly in his completion %. A couple of good games against San Francisco and one against Carolina helped him settle in at 60% for the season. A very good number for a rookie but lets not pretend he was lights out accurate all year long. Freeman was the same way.

Tebow didn't have any of that and only had three games so his sample size is not big enough to even out properly. With a sample size of 82 passes he just needed four more completions to hit 55% right where we'd expect him to be. I'm positive we had more than four easy dropped passes.

I don't care if you are throwing tons of screens and to receivers behind the LOS. The fact is you have to get it there and make it a catchable ball. So unless he starts burying balls on a consistent basis I'm going to be highly skeptical of the horrible accuracy claims. If he starts missing wide open relievers then I'll be concerned.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 03:05 PM
Tebow does nothing wrong! Leave Tebow alone! He's perfect! Just don't doubt him because if you doubt him, he'll get angry!

You wouldn't like Tim if he's angry.

Everything is fine! Tebow is a Pro Bowl QB right now with NOTHING to work on.

I hope that makes everyone feel better.

Tombstone RJ
01-05-2011, 03:05 PM
That and the fact that we need to upgrade pretty much every single defensive position and coach before even Peyton Manning or Tom Brady would be taking this team to the playoffs.

That still doesn't put Tebow's play above warranted criticism.

Well being that he's a rookie, yes, his play needs to improve. My main contention is it does not make sense to dump him for a shinier college QB prospect. Yah, the grass is always greener with the latest college QB prospect that pundits are crowning the next Montana-Elway-Favre-Manning-Brady all in one QB but I think the Broncos need to stick with the guy they have who already shows great promise, despite his perceived flaws.

You can't coach heart and desire.

Chris
01-05-2011, 03:09 PM
I just hope Tebow's accuracy improves and he doesn't turn into the next Mcnabb.

snowspot66
01-05-2011, 03:10 PM
Tebow does nothing wrong! Leave Tebow alone! He's perfect! Just don't doubt him because if you doubt him, he'll get angry!

You wouldn't like Tim if he's angry.

Everything is fine! Tebow is a Pro Bowl QB right now with NOTHING to work on.

I hope that makes everyone feel better.

Nobody is saying that. But you guys seem to be saying he's this inferior QB prospect and throw out all sorts of qualifiers for any success he has had. He's not an inferior prospect. He may never be as good as Bradford or Luck in the pocket but that doesn't mean he isn't a good passing QB. The way you talk it seems like you want to label him as barely able to throw the ball straight in front of him.

Dedhed
01-05-2011, 03:11 PM
So Tebow didn't play in a spread option offense? Strong take. Really. Like dis: :strong:

When did I say Bradford had no talent around him? Or Luck? Or anything like that?

Why do you defend Tebow's honor like you're his high school boyfriend? I've never seen such anger and venom from a Grateful Dead loving stoner before.

Fact is, both Bradford and Luck get the ball out faster than Tebow. IN MY OPINION (it okay if I have one of those?), it's something he must work on. I'm sorry your boyfriend needs you to take care of him daily to keep that evil Tebow-slurping media away from actually mentioning a weak point that could be worked on in his game.

My god. Please. Stop taking this personally.
I'm not taking it personally at all, nor am I defending Tebow's honor. I'm defending my belief that it would be utterly moronic to spend a draft pick on a QB.

epicSocialism4tw
01-05-2011, 03:11 PM
Nobody is saying that. But you guys seem to be saying he's this inferior QB prospect and throw out all sorts of qualifiers for any success he has had. He's not an inferior prospect. He may never be as good as Bradford or Luck in the pocket but that doesn't mean he isn't a good passing QB. The way you talk it seems like you want to label him as barely able to throw the ball straight in front of him.

Tebow was better in his first three NFL games than any other rookie this year.

Tebow is a SUPERIOR prospect.

snowspot66
01-05-2011, 03:12 PM
I just hope Tebow's accuracy improves and he doesn't turn into the next Mcnabb.

Well he's managed to be a 59% career passer and multiple Pro Bowl selection so he must be doing something right.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 03:13 PM
Nobody is saying that. But you guys seem to be saying he's this inferior QB prospect and throw out all sorts of qualifiers for any success he has had. He's not an inferior prospect. He may never be as good as Bradford or Luck in the pocket but that doesn't mean he isn't a good passing QB. The way you talk it seems like you want to label him as barely able to throw the ball straight in front of him.

If you would actually read the posts, you'd see that's not what we're saying. We're saying he has things to work on. Each time we bring something up that he should work on (and probably already IS working on), it's dismissed as "just fine" or "not important."

I have never, ever, EVER, used the term "inferior prospect" to describe Tim Tebow. Again, for the 500th time, I LIKE TIM TEBOW. Saying he has things to work on doesn't make me a hater. It makes me a realist.

bowtown
01-05-2011, 03:14 PM
I just hope Tebow's accuracy improves and he doesn't turn into the next Mcnabb.

He would have to eat about a million burritos for that to happen.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 03:14 PM
I'm not taking it personally at all, nor am I defending Tebow's honor. I'm defending my belief that it would be utterly moronic to spend a draft pick on a QB.

We're having a discussion. Nothing more. I don't think anyone on this board is actually in the decision making process for the Broncos.

You can relax. Timmy can handle his own. He does have some things to work on (is it okay for me to say that?), and soon.

Mile High Shack
01-05-2011, 03:14 PM
If you would actually read the posts, you'd see that's not what we're saying. We're saying he has things to work on. Each time we bring something up that he should work on (and probably already IS working on), it's dismissed as "just fine" or "not important."

I have never, ever, EVER, used the term "inferior prospect" to describe Tim Tebow. Again, for the 500th time, I LIKE TIM TEBOW. Saying he has things to work on doesn't make me a hater. It makes me a realist.

so basically people have been arguing with you basically agree with you probably :)

gotta love the internet sometimes ROFL!

Dedhed
01-05-2011, 03:16 PM
Tebow does nothing wrong! Leave Tebow alone! He's perfect! Just don't doubt him because if you doubt him, he'll get angry!

You wouldn't like Tim if he's angry.

Everything is fine! Tebow is a Pro Bowl QB right now with NOTHING to work on.

I hope that makes everyone feel better.

Luck is the best! There's nothing risky about a draft pick. If we draft him we won't need defense, he's that great of a passer, it's guaranteed! He played in a pro-style offense, and everyone knows that ensures success in the NFL. He'll be a pro bowler as a rookie, trust me!

Every single incompletion Tebow has ever thrown is due to his throwing motion. You have to throw like Ryan Leaf to be a successful NFL QB, Tebow will never make it.

Our defense isn't really that bad. We can get Luck and our defense will improve with the return of Dumervil.

Intangibles don't matter. Leadership doesn't matter.

Make you feel better?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 03:17 PM
so basically people have been arguing with you basically agree with you probably :)

gotta love the internet sometimes ROFL!

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:sgpYCw7ek_92IM:http://corruptcitizen.com/wp-content/uploads/internet-serious-business.jpg&t=1

misturanderson
01-05-2011, 03:17 PM
I keep hearing that but I never see any explanation. Also, rookies typically hover around a 55% completion rate. Bradford had a full offseason of reps and preseason games and over the course of the season he fluctuated wildly in his completion %. A couple of good games against San Francisco and one against Carolina helped him settle in at 60% for the season. A very good number for a rookie but lets not pretend he was lights out accurate all year long. Freeman was the same way.
That's all well and good, but those guys didn't have the WR talent that we have. And they still outperformed him in completion percentage. If he gets above 60% next year, I'll have seen enough to go all-in with him. He should get the chance to at least attempt it while we work on our defense.
Tebow didn't have any of that and only had three games so his sample size is not big enough to even out properly. With a sample size of 82 passes he just needed four more completions to hit 55% right where we'd expect him to be. I'm positive we had more than four easy dropped passes.
He also had at least 4 passes that required incredible catches to bring in. It evens out. He also needed 1 more incomplete pass to be sub-50%, that didn't happen just like the 4 completed passes didn't. Hypotheticals mean nothing.

I don't care if you are throwing tons of screens and to receivers behind the LOS. The fact is you have to get it there and make it a catchable ball. So unless he starts burying balls on a consistent basis I'm going to be highly skeptical of the horrible accuracy claims. If he starts missing wide open relievers then I'll be concerned.
Go rewatch the game last week and tell me that his screen passes were all very "catchable." He was awful in the first half with his short passes. He buried balls, threw them way over receivers heads, threw a bubble screen that required an amazing 1-handed grab to bring it in. I don't think you watched last weeks game if you think he was throwing accurately. I would say that his 44% completion percentage backs up my point much better than yours. If you want to blame that on his lack of cold-weather experience, fine, but he wasn't accurate.

55CrushEm
01-05-2011, 03:17 PM
Saying he has things to work on doesn't make me a hater. It makes me a realist.

But you are suggesting that we draft Luck if he's available, no?

Thereby implying that you DON'T believe there is even the possibility of Tebow developing into our QBOTF?

I thought this started as a draft issue......i.e. should we draft Luck if he's available. So....it sounds to me like it's more than a "he's got some things to work on" issue with you. It sounds more like a "he'll never be a good passer in the NFL" issue to you.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 03:18 PM
Luck is the best! There's nothing risky about a draft pick. If we draft him we won't need defense, he's that great of a passer, it's guaranteed! He played in a pro-style offense, and everyone knows that ensures success in the NFL. He'll be a pro bowler as a rookie, trust me!

Every single incompletion Tebow has ever thrown is due to his throwing motion. You have to throw like Ryan Leaf to be a successful NFL QB, Tebow will never make it.

Our defense isn't really that bad. We can get Luck and our defense will improve with the return of Dumervil.

Intangibles don't matter. Leadership doesn't matter.

Make you feel better?

yeah. If only I'd said ANYTHING APPROACHING what you wrote, you'd have a REALLY good point. Maybe next time, kiddo.

Dedhed
01-05-2011, 03:19 PM
He does have some things to work on (is it okay for me to say that?), and soon.

Of course he has some things to work on. Don't make yourself a complete tool by making me out as someone who thinks Tebow doesn't have more to work on than most Rookie QBs.

maven
01-05-2011, 03:19 PM
Nobody is saying that. But you guys seem to be saying he's this inferior QB prospect and throw out all sorts of qualifiers for any success he has had. He's not an inferior prospect. He may never be as good as Bradford or Luck in the pocket but that doesn't mean he isn't a good passing QB. The way you talk it seems like you want to label him as barely able to throw the ball straight in front of him.

I think Tebow is an inferior prospect to Luck coming out of college. In a pass happy league where the calls favor the offense, yes I want the best in orange and blue tossing the pig.

Mile High Shack
01-05-2011, 03:20 PM
yeah. If only I'd said ANYTHING APPROACHING what you wrote, you'd have a REALLY good point. Maybe next time, kiddo.

I think it's your user name that inspires the hate, more so than your actual words

snowspot66
01-05-2011, 03:20 PM
But you are suggesting that we draft Luck if he's available, no?

Thereby implying that you DON'T believe there is even the possibility of Tebow developing into our QBOTF?

I thought this started as a draft issue......i.e. should we draft Luck if he's available. So....it sounds to me like it's more than a "he's got some things to work on" issue with you. It sounds more like a "he'll never be a good passer in the NFL" issue to you.

This is exactly why all of this started.

Dedhed
01-05-2011, 03:20 PM
yeah. If only I'd said ANYTHING APPROACHING what you wrote, you'd have a REALLY good point.

Who said anything approaching what you wrote?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 03:21 PM
But you are suggesting that we draft Luck if he's available, no?

Thereby implying that you DON'T believe there is even the possibility of Tebow developing into our QBOTF?

I thought this started as a draft issue......i.e. should we draft Luck if he's available. So....it sounds to me like it's more than a "he's got some things to work on" issue with you. It sounds more like a "he'll never be a good passer in the NFL" issue to you.

I believe I've said that if Luck is available at number 2, we should do it. Yes.

Does that mean I think Tebow will never develop? No.

Does it mean that I think Tebow has a LOT to work on, and that after a year of working with a throwing coach to get his windup under control, he hasn't done it, and that concerns me? Yes.

I hate the word "never" like I hate the word "always." However, I "never" ever said that Tebow would "never" be a good passer in the NFL. I think he has more hurdles to get there. But he definitely has the work ethic and intangibles to get there. But will he? I don't think it's guaranteed.

frerottenextelway
01-05-2011, 03:21 PM
I think it's your user name that inspires the hate, more so than your actual words

That's not a good sign for me.

Mile High Shack
01-05-2011, 03:23 PM
That's not a good sign for me.

well, I'm pretty sure you are safe at this point :afro:

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 03:23 PM
Who said anything approaching what you wrote?

Snowspot, for one, who has completely dismissed Tebow's mechanics as being a possible problem for him moving forward.

DramaLlama, who defends Tebow to the teeth every time anyone questions anything about his good Christian soldier.

That's two. I'm sure I could look for more, but frankly I've got work to do.

maven
01-05-2011, 03:24 PM
I believe I've said that if Luck is available at number 2, we should do it. Yes.

Does that mean I think Tebow will never develop? No.

Does it mean that I think Tebow has a LOT to work on, and that after a year of working with a throwing coach to get his windup under control, he hasn't done it, and that concerns me? Yes.

I hate the word "never" like I hate the word "always." However, I "never" ever said that Tebow would "never" be a good passer in the NFL. I think he has more hurdles to get there. But he definitely has the work ethic and intangibles to get there. But will he? I don't think it's guaranteed.

I do not think Tebow will ever get there.

epicSocialism4tw
01-05-2011, 03:26 PM
That's not a good sign for me.

I dont know if the bulk of the goobers that visit this site actually know who Frerotte is.

maven
01-05-2011, 03:30 PM
I dont know if the bulk of the goobers that visit this site actually know who Frerotte is.

Does Gus really need to be remembered?

snowspot66
01-05-2011, 03:31 PM
Snowspot, for one, who has completely dismissed Tebow's mechanics as being a possible problem for him moving forward.

DramaLlama, who defends Tebow to the teeth every time anyone questions anything about his good Christian soldier.

That's two. I'm sure I could look for more, but frankly I've got work to do.

Please show me where I said he has nothing to improve upon. I dismissed his mechanics as a problem because it's not a problem. The amount of time involved in his longer release is so minuscule it's irrelevant. That's probably why McDaniels always said they weren't going to bother with it.

I've stated multiple times that the big problems he has to fix are reading the defenses, getting on the same timing as his receivers to hit those short routes and routes over the middle, and a full comprehension of the playbook and where everybody on the field will be.

I do not reject that he has a lot of work left.

I reject that he is in anyway an inferior prospect to Luck or any of the other rookie QB's.

His success is not written in stone but his chance of success is as equal and immediate as any of the other top young QB prospects.

epicSocialism4tw
01-05-2011, 03:32 PM
Does Gus really need to be remembered?

Yes. We need to remember that Tebow is our QB now, no matter how people will scream and whine about it.

Rohirrim
01-05-2011, 03:32 PM
My avatar makes me look tough.

edog24
01-05-2011, 03:33 PM
Here's why:
Situation QBRat Comp Att Pct Yds Y/G Y/A TD Int
1st Half 66.9 15 31 48.4 222 N/A 7.2 2 2
2nd Half 91.3 26 51 51.0 432 N/A 8.5 3 1
A poor QB rating with sub-50% completion percentage and 1:1 TD:Int ratio.

And once again, don't put words into my mouth. I'm not saying that Tebow is a huge weakness for the team. Just that he needs to play SIGNIFICANTLY better next year if we are going to stop looking into upgrading the QB position.

We were competitive in the SD game because Cassius Vaughn ran back a TD on a kickoff. We didn't have a shot in hell before that happened. Buckhalter had almost as much to do with the comeback against the texans as Tebow did. Our receivers also made some incredible plays on some so-so to poor passes to bail Tebow out in every game so far (i.e., his TD in the raiders game, though it is somewhat offset by the drop by Ball). Tebow was not THE ONLY reason we were competitive. He was a big part of it, but far from THE ONLY reason.

Lol, I did not put words into your mouth so the once again statement is false, but, I digress.

I agree with some of your arguments that Tebow spayed the ball around for sure, but I could care less about statistics at this point compared to other rookies.

The stupid thing about this whole discussion is that the point is more than likely irrelevant, as Luck will not be available to us. Tebow is great for us now, we have a garbage oline with no running game and nearly nobody to throw it to. What happens if we get a rookie pocket passer, he is going to be thrown to the wolves and get his head knocked off.

Guess what, beyond a pissing contest regarding accuracy and statistics, that means we need a guy with wheels, a good football head and won't give up on plays, this = Tebow.

frerottenextelway
01-05-2011, 03:34 PM
Does Gus really need to be remembered?

Yes. The Elusive Gus Frerotte.

bronco militia
01-05-2011, 03:35 PM
My avatar makes me look tough.

not really

http://cdn.wg.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/buscemi-lipstick.gif

Rohirrim
01-05-2011, 03:35 PM
not really

http://cdn.wg.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/buscemi-lipstick.gif

STFU Donnie.

listopencil
01-05-2011, 03:36 PM
I believe I've said that if Luck is available at number 2, we should do it. Yes.



Well, if you want the Broncos to draft a QB with the #2 overall pick then yeah, you are saying that Tebow isn't capable of being the QBOTF. Otherwise that would be one really stupid draft pick.

epicSocialism4tw
01-05-2011, 03:38 PM
Please show me where I said he has nothing to improve upon. I dismissed his mechanics as a problem because it's not a problem. The amount of time involved in his longer release is so minuscule it's irrelevant. That's probably why McDaniels always said they weren't going to bother with it.

I've stated multiple times that the big problems he has to fix are reading the defenses, getting on the same timing as his receivers to hit those short routes and routes over the middle, and a full comprehension of the playbook and where everybody on the field will be.

I do not reject that he has a lot of work left.

I reject that he is in anyway an inferior prospect to Luck or any of the other rookie QB's.

His success is not written in stone but his chance of success is as equal and immediate as any of the other top young QB prospects.

Its no use arguing with that guy. I have had him on ignore for a long time. I dont even remember what his name used to be.

You have to remember that most of these anti-Tebow guys have deep-seated aversions to him for one reason or another. Another poster mentioned OU fans...it is true. Most OU fans dislike Tebow. As for the guy you quoted, he has a history here of hating religious people. If you notice, he even brought it up on his own in the post you quoted.

Its not worth it to argue with someone like that because he's just looking for excuses to support his predetermined agenda. He'll never relent. He's gripping to his biases with everything he has left, because he feels that he's losing the battle. He lost a battle when Tebow was drafted. He loses battles when Tebow succeeds. At this point, Tebow has won so many of those battles that the war is almost lost for that poster. He feels it slipping away. His only hope is that some magic event happens and snatches him from defeat...that Tebow is traded, etc.

bronco militia
01-05-2011, 03:39 PM
STFU Donnie.

Ha!

great movie

bombay
01-05-2011, 03:39 PM
I believe I've said that if Luck is available at number 2, we should do it. Yes.

Does that mean I think Tebow will never develop? No.

Does it mean that I think Tebow has a LOT to work on, and that after a year of working with a throwing coach to get his windup under control, he hasn't done it, and that concerns me? Yes.

I hate the word "never" like I hate the word "always." However, I "never" ever said that Tebow would "never" be a good passer in the NFL. I think he has more hurdles to get there. But he definitely has the work ethic and intangibles to get there. But will he? I don't think it's guaranteed.


Pretty much agree with this. I think a full year of Tebow next season will tell the story, pro or con. That doesn't mean the Broncos should never draft another quarterback, and if Luck is available, you should probably take him.

Dedhed
01-05-2011, 03:46 PM
Does Gus really need to be remembered?

Headbutting a wall should never be forgotten.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 03:47 PM
STFU Donnie.

Were you listening to The Dude's story, Donnie?

Rohirrim
01-05-2011, 03:48 PM
Are those men nazis, Walter?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-05-2011, 03:55 PM
Are those men nazis, Walter?

No, those men are Nihilists, Donnie. They're nothing to be afraid of.

Broncos_OTM
01-05-2011, 03:58 PM
If there is a rookie cap this year. I dont know bit if we r gonna pay guys the way we uave in the nfl lately luck comes out this year.

misturanderson
01-05-2011, 04:05 PM
Lol, I did not put words into your mouth so the once again statement is false, but, I digress.

I agree with some of your arguments that Tebow spayed the ball around for sure, but I could care less about statistics at this point compared to other rookies.

The stupid thing about this whole discussion is that the point is more than likely irrelevant, as Luck will not be available to us. Tebow is great for us now, we have a garbage oline with no running game and nearly nobody to throw it to. What happens if we get a rookie pocket passer, he is going to be thrown to the wolves and get his head knocked off.

Guess what, beyond a pissing contest regarding accuracy and statistics, that means we need a guy with wheels, a good football head and won't give up on plays, this = Tebow.
Accuracy is probably the single most important attribute of a QB in today's NFL. It isn't something to be dismissed.

It, along with decision-making, makes up the difference between the elite QBs and the 2nd and 3rd tier QBs. Rivers, Brees, Manning, Rodgers and Brady are the most accurate QBs in the league. It's no coincidence that they are universally regarded as the best QBs in the league. If there is a guy open by even a step they will get the ball where it needs to be. I don't trust Tebow to do that right now. Not on short or intermediate routes at least.

If Tebow doesn't improve his accuracy significantly we will either need to make up a new offense for him or move on to someone else. If anyone can go from where he is now, to where he needs to be, it's Tebow, but that isn't an easy proposition and the likelihood of failure is probably higher than the likelihood of success.

listopencil
01-05-2011, 04:20 PM
Pretty much agree with this. I think a full year of Tebow next season will tell the story, pro or con. That doesn't mean the Broncos should never draft another quarterback, and if Luck is available, you should probably take him.

Right now it is looking like 1) Tebow, 2) Orton, 3) Quinn. That's not solid, that's just how I interpret the situation. It's not a bad set up if it's possible to actually go through a season like this, lol. It's actually how I prefer to have the QB position manned-I just doubt that those three particular people work for it.

I like to have 1) clear cut starter, 2) veteran back up that has shown he can play, 3) young guy with a lot of upside. The problems I see are 1) Tebow hasn't proven he can be that guy, 2) Would Orton be OK with being in this role?, 3) Quinn looks horrible. Lots of question marks at the QB position as to who plays where and who is still on the team at the beginning of the regular season.

I wouldn't mind drafting a QB to replace Quinn, because I think he sucks ass. I could see drafting a promising young guy in the latter rounds. Then you cut Quinn. You don't spend the #2 overall pick on a guy to be your new #3 QB though. I could also see trading Orton. But then you need somebody at the #2 spot. I don't think Quinn is that guy and I don't think you draft a QB #2 overall to back up your current (almost rookie) QB.

Bringing in Luck would mean spending a valuable asset where we already have strength, and completely destroying our QB depth. I don't like it. I think the new FO is going with Tebow and will either trade Orton or keep him at the #2 spot. I only hope that they dump and replace Quinn, then bring in a decent vet to back up Tebow if/when Orton is traded. With the weaknesses this team has...spending the #2 overall pick where it isn't needed would be a dumb move in my opinion.

Dedhed
01-05-2011, 04:26 PM
good Christian soldier.


Just blew your cover bro.

bombay
01-05-2011, 04:29 PM
Right now it is looking like 1) Tebow, 2) Orton, 3) Quinn. That's not solid, that's just how I interpret the situation. It's not a bad set up if it's possible to actually go through a season like this, lol. It's actually how I prefer to have the QB position manned-I just doubt that those three particular people work for it.

I like to have 1) clear cut starter, 2) veteran back up that has shown he can play, 3) young guy with a lot of upside. The problems I see are 1) Tebow hasn't proven he can be that guy, 2) Would Orton be OK with being in this role?, 3) Quinn looks horrible. Lots of question marks at the QB position as to who plays where and who is still on the team at the beginning of the regular season.

I wouldn't mind drafting a QB to replace Quinn, because I think he sucks ass. I could see drafting a promising young guy in the latter rounds. Then you cut Quinn. You don't spend the #2 overall pick on a guy to be your new #3 QB though. I could also see trading Orton. But then you need somebody at the #2 spot. I don't think Quinn is that guy and I don't think you draft a QB #2 overall to back up your current (almost rookie) QB.

Bringing in Luck would mean spending a valuable asset where we already have strength, and completely destroying our QB depth. I don't like it. I think the new FO is going with Tebow and will either trade Orton or keep him at the #2 spot. I only hope that they dump and replace Quinn, then bring in a decent vet to back up Tebow if/when Orton is traded. With the weaknesses this team has...spending the #2 overall pick where it isn't needed would be a dumb move in my opinion.


Good post. I agree with you that Orton isn't going to want to stick around in a backup role, nor should he. There are probably 10 or so teams he could start for, and he has some value. He might bring as high as a second round pick. Quinn hasn't shown anything as a QB, but he's reasonably priced and already here, so I won't be surprised if they hang on to him. Luck would be an expensive backup if he couldn't beat out Tebow, in terms of both what it would take to get him, and how much money it would cost. Here's the thing, though: if he's available, do you think there's any chance at all that Elway passes on him? He might even trade up to get him.

listopencil
01-05-2011, 04:38 PM
Good post. I agree with you that Orton isn't going to want to stick around in a backup role, nor should he. There are probably 10 or so teams he could start for, and he has some value. He might bring as high as a second round pick. Quinn hasn't shown anything as a QB, but he's reasonably priced and already here, so I won't be surprised if they hang on to him. Luck would be an expensive backup if he couldn't beat out Tebow, in terms of both what it would take to get him, and how much money it would cost. Here's the thing, though: if he's available, do you think there's any chance at all that Elway passes on him? He might even trade up to get him.

I'm hoping that between Elway/Ellis/Xanders/HC that they decide to pass on him. Elway stated in his press conference that he's going to defer to Ellis and Xanders more this year in the draft. That he's going to be more in a tie breaker role if they can't agree. Also that a consensus will have to be reached before they pull the trigger.

bombay
01-05-2011, 04:56 PM
I'm hoping that between Elway/Ellis/Xanders/HC that they decide to pass on him. Elway stated in his press conference that he's going to defer to Ellis and Xanders more this year in the draft. That he's going to be more in a tie breaker role if they can't agree. Also that a consensus will have to be reached before they pull the trigger.

There should be a new drinking game based on how many times Elway says 'consensus'. He used that word a lot today. Maybe he really will get out of the way and let the more experienced hands (kind of frightening that the 'experienced' guys don't have that much) determine what to do in the draft. Luck will be the litmus test if he's available. l like your idea of picking a young qb later in the draft. Tebow probably will get a full season to prove himself, and it would be better if they're grooming a young guy in the event that he doesn't show improvement, rather than hanging on to Orton or forcing Quinn into action.

epicSocialism4tw
01-05-2011, 05:01 PM
Headbutting a wall should never be forgotten.

But he was soooo excited!

listopencil
01-05-2011, 05:02 PM
There should be a new drinking game based on how many times Elway says 'consensus'. He used that word a lot today. Maybe he really will get out of the way and let the more experienced hands (kind of frightening that the 'experienced' guys don't have that much) determine what to do in the draft. Luck will be the litmus test if he's available. l like your idea of picking a young qb later in the draft. Tebow probably will get a full season to prove himself, and it would be better if they're grooming a young guy in the event that he doesn't show improvement, rather than hanging on to Orton or forcing Quinn into action.

Shoot, I wonder if rounds one and two will be on a Thursday night this year? I'm off on Fridays, would be nice not to have to go to work with a hangover. If they do draft Luck and we still end up with Quinn on the roster....ugh. I'm hitting the tequila.

bombay
01-05-2011, 05:06 PM
Shoot, I wonder if rounds one and two will be on a Thursday night this year? I'm off on Fridays, would be nice not to have to go to work with a hangover. If they do draft Luck and we still end up with Quinn on the roster....ugh. I'm hitting the tequila.

lol. That wouldn't do at all.

I'm guessing that ESPN will hold the draft the same way again this year. I think they like stringing along fans for three days. Good ratings, I'm sure.

epicSocialism4tw
01-05-2011, 05:13 PM
lol. That wouldn't do at all.

I'm guessing that ESPN will hold the draft the same way again this year. I think they like stringing along fans for three days. Good ratings, I'm sure.

I imagine that most people tuned out after the first two rounds in the past (or immediately after their team picked in round 1).

This way they can develop storylines and drive interest in the other segments of the draft.

gobroncos313
01-05-2011, 08:07 PM
Accuracy is probably the single most important attribute of a QB in today's NFL. It isn't something to be dismissed.

It, along with decision-making, makes up the difference between the elite QBs and the 2nd and 3rd tier QBs. Rivers, Brees, Manning, Rodgers and Brady are the most accurate QBs in the league. It's no coincidence that they are universally regarded as the best QBs in the league. If there is a guy open by even a step they will get the ball where it needs to be. I don't trust Tebow to do that right now. Not on short or intermediate routes at least.

If Tebow doesn't improve his accuracy significantly we will either need to make up a new offense for him or move on to someone else. If anyone can go from where he is now, to where he needs to be, it's Tebow, but that isn't an easy proposition and the likelihood of failure is probably higher than the likelihood of success.

Well Kyle Orton is a pretty darn accurate passer especially when he's healthy like the first 11 weeks of this season, I think all that accurate passing got us a 3-8 record during that 11 week stretch of accurate passing, lots of yards though. You can have all the accuracy in the world and if you don't have the "IT" factor or a once a decade defense you can't win in the NFL.

edog24
01-05-2011, 08:19 PM
Well Kyle Orton is a pretty darn accurate passer especially when he's healthy like the first 11 weeks of this season, I think all that accurate passing got us a 3-8 record during that 11 week stretch of accurate passing, lots of yards though. You can have all the accuracy in the world and if you don't have the "IT" factor or a once a decade defense you can't win in the NFL.

This

Dedhed
01-05-2011, 09:07 PM
Accuracy is probably the single most important attribute of a QB in today's NFL. It isn't something to be dismissed.


Why because it suits your current argument the most?

Of course accuracy shouldn't be dismissed, nor should leadership, scrambling ability, arm strength, football smarts, or any other attribute that a player can rely on. There is no such thing as the "single most important attribute".

If there was, Tom Brady would not last until the 6th round. Especially if accuracy was that attribute.

Agamemnon
01-05-2011, 10:51 PM
If Carolina doesn't want to draft him themselves, they are going to trade down and get a King's Ransom from someone who does want him.