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LetsGoBroncos
01-05-2011, 07:08 AM
Discuss.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_17015369

Ray Finkle
01-05-2011, 07:09 AM
Discuss.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_17015369

boo....he is what Jim Dolan is to the NYR's.....

lostknight
01-05-2011, 07:11 AM
Blah.

jhns
01-05-2011, 07:12 AM
I don't like it. The franchise has been moving in the wrong direction with many horrible decisions since Ellis has been involved. Ellis has had more power than everyone other than Bowlen for at least a couple years. It would have been nice to see everyone in the front office canned after this season.

Kaylore
01-05-2011, 07:13 AM
He has been for some time, so I guess this just makes it official.

Mile High Shack
01-05-2011, 07:13 AM
He basically is in the role Bowlen was and Elway is in the role Ellis was......basically the football side of the deal, Elway is running, so I don't get what the problem is

and Bowlen is not going to fire his good friend, sorry, that wasn't EVER going to happen

montrose
01-05-2011, 07:14 AM
He has been for some time, so I guess this just makes it official.

This.

Rohirrim
01-05-2011, 07:14 AM
What that means is Ellis is officially running the team on a day-to-day basis. He had been the past two years, anyway. But now, it's clear.

And he's done the worst job in the history of the franchise in that two years.

bowtown
01-05-2011, 07:14 AM
http://www.markbehm.com/blogger/uploaded_images/rasputin-716378.jpg

montrose
01-05-2011, 07:27 AM
So here's what looks to be your new structure:

Owner and CEO - Pat Bowlen (Owns the team, provides capital)

President - Joe Ellis (Handles day-to-day business operations)

Executive Vice President of Football Operations - John Elway (In charge of GM and Head Coach, final say on personnel)

General Manager - Brian Xanders (Leads player personnel department)

Head Coach - TBD (Will build the coaching staff, coach the team and provide input on personnel)

Director of Pro Personnel - Keith Kidd (Personnel evaluator of internal veterans and free agents)

Director of College Scouting - Matt Russell (Personnel evaluator of college prospects and oversees regional scouts)

Director of Football Administration - Mike Bluem (Responsible for managing salary cap)

Pony Boy
01-05-2011, 07:33 AM
So here's what looks to be your new structure:

Owner and CEO - Pat Bowlen (Owns the team, provides capital)

President - Joe Ellis (Handles day-to-day business operations)

Executive Vice President of Football Operations - John Elway (In charge of GM and Head Coach, final say on personnel)

General Manager - Brian Xanders (Leads player personnel department)

Head Coach - TBD (Will build the coaching staff, coach the team and provide input on personnel)

Director of Pro Personnel - Keith Kidd (Personnel evaluator of internal veterans and free agents)

Director of College Scouting - Orange Mane (Personnel evaluator of college prospects and oversees regional scouts)
Director of Football Administration - Mike Bluem (Responsible for managing salary cap)

Sorry but I had to make one minor correction

colonelbeef
01-05-2011, 07:38 AM
boo....he is what Jim Dolan is to the NYR's.....

agreed

Steve Sewell
01-05-2011, 07:39 AM
Sorry but I had to make one minor correction

:notworthy

"Andrew Luck looks like Ryan Leaf and I don't like his voice, drop him off the board."

scorpio
01-05-2011, 07:41 AM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_xLJqb3BN2Fo/TD4S2H9K7CI/AAAAAAAAA-E/mmtkla9xJ0Q/s1600/TheTwoTowers_WormtongueAndKingTheoden.jpg

go_broncos
01-05-2011, 07:45 AM
Brian Xanders - general manager..
Looks like Bowlen didn't learn the leason..

Rohirrim
01-05-2011, 07:47 AM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_xLJqb3BN2Fo/TD4S2H9K7CI/AAAAAAAAA-E/mmtkla9xJ0Q/s1600/TheTwoTowers_WormtongueAndKingTheoden.jpg

Ha!

Matt Millen is wishing Elway the best. Says he stunk at it. :rofl:

BroncosMT
01-05-2011, 08:53 AM
The only light on this IMO is Elway having final say on Personnel.....that makes Xanders somewhat accountable

Kaylore
01-05-2011, 08:59 AM
The only light on this IMO is Elway having final say on Personnel.....that makes Xanders somewhat accountable

Out of curiousity, where did you see this? I've heard that a few times. All I've been able to read from the official announcements is that Xanders will report to Elway, but nothing about Elway "having final say." I'm assuming there's an article I haven't read.

Missouribronc
01-05-2011, 09:02 AM
Maybe now Ellis will stick to business decisions, like how to get fans butts in seats and which car dealers are the official car dealers of the Denver Broncos, rather than football decisions, and let Elway/Xanders handle the football.

Might actually work better.

bronco militia
01-05-2011, 09:07 AM
Out of curiousity, where did you see this? I've heard that a few times. All I've been able to read from the official announcements is that Xanders will report to Elway, but nothing about Elway "having final say." I'm assuming there's an article I haven't read.

montrose's post #10....he has added his own personal note next to each position

BroncosMT
01-05-2011, 09:08 AM
Out of curiousity, where did you see this? I've heard that a few times. All I've been able to read from the official announcements is that Xanders will report to Elway, but nothing about Elway "having final say." I'm assuming there's an article I haven't read.

I think its more of a presumption....fox sports on their article talked about him having complete control

Kaylore
01-05-2011, 09:11 AM
montrose's post #10....he has added his own personal note next to each position

I saw that, but I'm not seeing anything official. I took Montrose's post as one of his theoretical depth charts, but for the front office. I haven't read anywhere about Elway having final say in anything. Again, I liken this to an owner relationship. Of course the owner has "final say" but that doesn't mean he's pulling the strings, necessarily. In Dallas and Oakland he is. In New England and Miami he is not.

I think its more of a presumption....fox sports on their article talked about him having complete control
That's my point. We actually don't know how the power structure will shake out until stuff starts getting leaked. Until then it's all supposition.

I don't believe Elway wants to dabble. I think he wants to delegate. I also think most of the pushing will come from the traditional pusher: the coach. THAT is the dynamic I want to see. It won't be Elway that emasculates Xanders, if it happens at all; it will be the coach.

My take? Ellis wanted McDaniels and Xanders roles separated and Xanders to have final say. Bowlen was more comfortable with the coach being the be-all, end-all and let McDaniels have his way. This time Ellis said it has to be different and now Bowlen is literally giving the keys away.

bronco militia
01-05-2011, 09:16 AM
I saw that, but I'm not seeing anything official. I took Montrose's post as one of his theoretical depth charts, but for the front office. I haven't read anywhere about Elway having final say in anything. Again, I liken this to an owner relationship. Of course the owner has "final say" but that doesn't mean he's pulling the strings, necessarily. In Dallas and Oakland he is. In New England and Miami he is not.

maybe it's florio and klis...those two idiots want to compare Elway to Millen (GM/CEO) and Ozzie Newsome (GM).

Jesterhole
01-05-2011, 09:18 AM
Out of curiousity, where did you see this? I've heard that a few times. All I've been able to read from the official announcements is that Xanders will report to Elway, but nothing about Elway "having final say." I'm assuming there's an article I haven't read.

Just read between the lines, or look at Xander's history. Quit only going by the 'official annoucement.'

broncosteven
01-05-2011, 09:18 AM
I saw that, but I'm not seeing anything official. I took Montrose's post as one of his theoretical depth charts, but for the front office. I haven't read anywhere about Elway having final say in anything. Again, I liken this to an owner relationship. Of course the owner has "final say" but that doesn't mean he's pulling the strings, necessarily. In Dallas and Oakland he is. In New England and Miami he is not.


That's my point. We actually don't know how the power structure will shake out until stuff starts getting leaked. Until then it's all supposition.

I don't believe Elway wants to dabble. I think he wants to delegate. I also think most of the pushing will come from the traditional pusher: the coach. THAT is the dynamic I want to see. It won't be Elway that emasculates Xanders, if it happens at all; it will be the coach.

My take? Ellis wanted McDaniels and Xanders roles separated and Xanders to have final say. Bowlen was more comfortable with the coach being the be-all, end-all and let McDaniels have his way. This time Ellis said it has to be different and now Bowlen is literally giving the keys away.

He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him! I'll chase him round the Moons of Nibia, and round the Antares Maelstrom, and round perdition's flames before I give him up!

LOL

Mr. Elway
01-05-2011, 09:20 AM
I saw that, but I'm not seeing anything official. I took Montrose's post as one of his theoretical depth charts, but for the front office. I haven't read anywhere about Elway having final say in anything. Again, I liken this to an owner relationship. Of course the owner has "final say" but that doesn't mean he's pulling the strings, necessarily. In Dallas and Oakland he is. In New England and Miami he is not.

Wasn't Shanahan's title "Head Coach and Vice President of Football Operations," and it was the latter portion that gave him full control of personnel? So in a historical context, the title "Vice President of Football Operations" in Dove Valley does include that authority. Ergo, how much Elway chooses to exert that authority is up to him, and depends largely on his personal style of management.

broncosteven
01-05-2011, 09:21 AM
I wish Moops would chime in he and I have been trading emails and he had some good takes on the openings.

broncosteven
01-05-2011, 09:23 AM
Wasn't Shanahan's title "Head Coach and Vice President of Football Operations," and it was the latter portion that gave him full control of personnel? So in a historical context, the title "Vice President of Football Operations" in Dove Valley does include that authority. Ergo, how much Elway chooses to exert that authority is up to him, and depends largely on his personal style of management.

I think John is going to be there so the next HC can't make a bad trade while everyone is out for lunch.

"Hey DooDZ! Guess what I got while you were at TGI Fridays?"

bronco militia
01-05-2011, 09:27 AM
I think John is going to be there so the next HC can't make a bad trade while everyone is out for lunch.

"Hey DooDZ! Guess what I got while you were at TGI Fridays?"

Ha! I agree

I think Xanders is still here because he had nothing to do with the Cutler fiasco

Mr. Elway
01-05-2011, 09:48 AM
I think Xanders lacks the personality to be the so-called "strong GM" that so many fans want to see. How much power he has over big decisions is probably as much as Elway allows him (which could be a lot, we don't know). With that said, this is still a significant change to the organizational structure. I believe the organization has identified one key change - separating the football VP role from the HC role. Both roles are too much for one man to handle. I think they are making the right call there.

Whether or not they end up with the right people in place for those roles is another question, but in keeping Xanders and Ellis I also think they are trying to maintain some continuity, which I think is also reasonable even though as fans we want to see beaucoup heads on platters when things go south. It would be very scary to see everyone gone except for Bowlen and Elway, IMO.

Cito Pelon
01-05-2011, 12:07 PM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_xLJqb3BN2Fo/TD4S2H9K7CI/AAAAAAAAA-E/mmtkla9xJ0Q/s1600/TheTwoTowers_WormtongueAndKingTheoden.jpg

Joe "Wormtongue" Ellis. I have a hard time believing Ellis really welcomed Elway into the organization. However, after Ellis made that phony welcome speech Sunday he did get bumped up to President. So Bowlen rewarded Ellis for being a team player, relinquished his President duties to Ellis.

Cito Pelon
01-05-2011, 12:17 PM
Wasn't Shanahan's title "Head Coach and Vice President of Football Operations," and it was the latter portion that gave him full control of personnel? So in a historical context, the title "Vice President of Football Operations" in Dove Valley does include that authority. Ergo, how much Elway chooses to exert that authority is up to him, and depends largely on his personal style of management.

Possibly. We're gonna find out how much control Elway chooses to exert. He's been hesitant in public statements about how much control he will exert and has been on the side of NOT exerting much control, said he'll look to be part of the "quorum" about personnel decisions, and that's about the strongest statement he's made about personnel decisions. So far. He just did get hired, after all.

Mr. Elway
01-05-2011, 12:26 PM
Possibly. We're gonna find out how much control Elway chooses to exert. He's been hesitant in public statements about how much control he will exert and has been on the side of NOT exerting much control, said he'll look to be part of the "quorum" about personnel decisions, and that's about the strongest statement he's made about personnel decisions. So far. He just did get hired, after all.

Agreed. Put yourself in his shoes - Elway knows that his experience is limited, but he is a smart guy who probably thinks he'll figure things out as time goes on. He might start out with a more conservative hand in decisions, and exert more authority as time goes on. His comments so far seem to indicate that. The press conference in a few mins might give more insight.

montrose
01-05-2011, 09:14 PM
I took Montrose's post as one of his theoretical depth charts, but for the front office.

Yeah that's what it was, and after John's presser - I think I'm pretty accurate! lol

Drek
01-05-2011, 09:52 PM
Any Broncos organization that still has Ellis anywhere near the top of the power structure has an issue.

I only hope that inserting Elway was Bowlen's attempt to fully extricate himself and Ellis from football related matters.

I also firmly believe that the rapid dismissal of McDaniels is a result of Ellis' double dealing and trying to cover up a broken and failed power structure he put McDaniels at the top of. The evidence to support this:

1. Ellis did the vast majority of McDaniels' interviews and was his biggest champion in getting him hired. He knew him best and should have been most versed on how he'd handle the organization as a whole, McDaniels' expectations, etc..

2. Not long after McDaniels arrived the organizational hierarchy Bowlen had suggested (Jim Goodman calling the personnel shots) was turned on its ear. McDaniels didn't get the power to do that in the first month on the job. Someone more entrenched had to push for that change.

3. When word of "Spygate II" reached upper management a quick and clear move to dispose of McDaniels was obviously enacted. This for something the NFL's only noted issue with McDaniels and the Broncos was the speed with which it was reported. Something else must have occurred to make the team take such a drastic action only half way through McDaniels' second season.

4. Almost as soon as McDaniels was out Xanders went on a media glad handing exhibition in which he effectively said to every local media type who would listen "Everything bad was Josh, everything good was me. Scouts honor!" Full on character assassination from a guy who just a few months ago was selling everything the organization did as a masterstroke by he and McDaniels in collaboration.

My personal theory: Ellis doesn't know **** all about football or anything vaguely connected to it. He's playing owner with Bowlen's checkbook just like Shanahan did only without nearly the football IQ of Shanahan. He royally ****ed up when he thought he'd hand picked the next golden boy and maneuvered Bowlen and co. into letting him clear a path for his golden boy to revolutionize the game. He either didn't realize or didn't care that his golden boy was so wildly obsessed with his own "golden boy" status that he'd never delegate anything and would allow that ego to get in the way of real success.

Instead of going down with the ship he'd built when Bowlen started to get real perturbed (around Spygate II and the embarrassment that caused to Bowlen). Ellis offered up the golden boy as his sacrificial lamb and is using the lack of a "division of power" between Xanders and McDaniels as some sort of proof that McDaniels overstepped his prescribed bounds, even though it was Ellis' job to make sure those boundaries stayed in place.

So now Bowlen has brought in outside help from someone he trusts more than anyone else, Elway, to make sure those boundaries are renewed. Elway however is obviously being fed the same company line that Ellis is selling to Bowlen. All while trying to sell everyone on Xanders being the real talent he plucked from obscurity.

In short, we're entirely reliant on Elway, in his first year of NFL level management, to have the will power, foresight, and intelligence to out maneuver a back stabbing, manipulative douche at the top of the power structure and his pet GM he's been trying to sell as something special.

Elway might be able to do it, but I'm not sure if he quite understands the fact that he's up against a con man who just did the managerial equivalent of selling his own child to cover his ass. I hope so and I hope whomever he brings in for the coaching staff has an equally large pair of brass balls. Because for the Broncos organization to do better than the last two years its going to take some serious top down reform. That unfortunately starts with a green Elway slaying the metaphorical dragon.

The TL,DR version of this post - Ellis is a ****bag conman. Elway has one hell of a fight out of the gate if he wants to fix this franchise. Best of luck #7.

baja
01-05-2011, 10:03 PM
Any Broncos organization that still has Ellis anywhere near the top of the power structure has an issue.

I only hope that inserting Elway was Bowlen's attempt to fully extricate himself and Ellis from football related matters.

I also firmly believe that the rapid dismissal of McDaniels is a result of Ellis' double dealing and trying to cover up a broken and failed power structure he put McDaniels at the top of. The evidence to support this:

1. Ellis did the vast majority of McDaniels' interviews and was his biggest champion in getting him hired. He knew him best and should have been most versed on how he'd handle the organization as a whole, McDaniels' expectations, etc..

2. Not long after McDaniels arrived the organizational hierarchy Bowlen had suggested (Jim Goodman calling the personnel shots) was turned on its ear. McDaniels didn't get the power to do that in the first month on the job. Someone more entrenched had to push for that change.

3. When word of "Spygate II" reached upper management a quick and clear move to dispose of McDaniels was obviously enacted. This for something the NFL's only noted issue with McDaniels and the Broncos was the speed with which it was reported. Something else must have occurred to make the team take such a drastic action only half way through McDaniels' second season.

4. Almost as soon as McDaniels was out Xanders went on a media glad handing exhibition in which he effectively said to every local media type who would listen "Everything bad was Josh, everything good was me. Scouts honor!" Full on character assassination from a guy who just a few months ago was selling everything the organization did as a masterstroke by he and McDaniels in collaboration.

My personal theory: Ellis doesn't know **** all about football or anything vaguely connected to it. He's playing owner with Bowlen's checkbook just like Shanahan did only without nearly the football IQ of Shanahan. He royally ****ed up when he thought he'd hand picked the next golden boy and maneuvered Bowlen and co. into letting him clear a path for his golden boy to revolutionize the game. He either didn't realize or didn't care that his golden boy was so wildly obsessed with his own "golden boy" status that he'd never delegate anything and would allow that ego to get in the way of real success.

Instead of going down with the ship he'd built when Bowlen started to get real perturbed (around Spygate II and the embarrassment that caused to Bowlen). Ellis offered up the golden boy as his sacrificial lamb and is using the lack of a "division of power" between Xanders and McDaniels as some sort of proof that McDaniels overstepped his prescribed bounds, even though it was Ellis' job to make sure those boundaries stayed in place.

So now Bowlen has brought in outside help from someone he trusts more than anyone else, Elway, to make sure those boundaries are renewed. Elway however is obviously being fed the same company line that Ellis is selling to Bowlen. All while trying to sell everyone on Xanders being the real talent he plucked from obscurity.

In short, we're entirely reliant on Elway, in his first year of NFL level management, to have the will power, foresight, and intelligence to out maneuver a back stabbing, manipulative douche at the top of the power structure and his pet GM he's been trying to sell as something special.

Elway might be able to do it, but I'm not sure if he quite understands the fact that he's up against a con man who just did the managerial equivalent of selling his own child to cover his ass. I hope so and I hope whomever he brings in for the coaching staff has an equally large pair of brass balls. Because for the Broncos organization to do better than the last two years its going to take some serious top down reform. That unfortunately starts with a green Elway slaying the metaphorical dragon.

The TL,DR version of this post - Ellis is a ****bag conman. Elway has one hell of a fight out of the gate if he wants to fix this franchise. Best of luck #7.

Ellis' introduction of Elway was the only disingenuous part of the hour long presser. Don't underestimate John Elway. He has Pat's trust and that is huge right now. Elway's people skills will ferret out the truth in time.

Elway used the phrase Protect the Broncos several times. Was tha a shot across the bow for Ellis?

Drek
01-05-2011, 10:13 PM
Ellis' introduction of Elway was the only disingenuous part of the hour long presser. Don't underestimate John Elway. He has Pat's trust and that is huge right now. Elway's people skills will ferret out the truth in time.

Elway used the phrase Protect the Broncos several times. Was tha a shot across the bow for Ellis?

I'm hoping like **** that it was. Elway doesn't strike me as someone easily swayed or someone who doesn't have good instincts on people. He initially thought McDaniels had a lot of promise. A lot of what he's been doing now strikes me as toeing the company line, but I wouldn't be surprised if a big reason we're looking at guys wanting their second tour as HC is because those guys know how much backstabbing and sniping they could be in line for.

It also makes me lean towards Mularkey more. When asked to submit to wanton FO demands in Buffalo, including coaching changes, he showed integrity and walked away form the situation. If Ellis tries to meddle we need a coach who's got Elway's back and stand on principle, not be coerced by fear for his job.

BTW, you wanted my take on the press conferences, etc. and that is it in a nutshell.

montrose
01-05-2011, 10:25 PM
Anyone I know that's come across Joe Ellis hasn't said a bad word about him and tells me he's a class act. I know from the outside looking in it may look shady but I'm not convinced he's the evil monster. With Elway on board, I don't think we'll hear or see much of Ellis from now on unless it's some type of stadium issue, ticket prices, etc.

Just my two cents.

baja
01-05-2011, 10:25 PM
I'm hoping like **** that it was. Elway doesn't strike me as someone easily swayed or someone who doesn't have good instincts on people. He initially thought McDaniels had a lot of promise. A lot of what he's been doing now strikes me as toeing the company line, but I wouldn't be surprised if a big reason we're looking at guys wanting their second tour as HC is because those guys know how much backstabbing and sniping they could be in line for.

It also makes me lean towards Mularkey more. When asked to submit to wanton FO demands in Buffalo, including coaching changes, he showed integrity and walked away form the situation. If Ellis tries to meddle we need a coach who's got Elway's back and stand on principle, not be coerced by fear for his job.

BTW, you wanted my take on the press conferences, etc. and that is it in a nutshell.

McDaniels does have a lot of promise still but it is beginning to look like he got himself into a mess with Spygate II. If not SpyGate II it's something else. some issue is driving all this chain of events.

BTY I like Dennison for HC but Mularkey would be OK too.

Que
01-05-2011, 10:30 PM
The suck is strong in Ellis

footstepsfrom#27
01-05-2011, 10:45 PM
Executive Vice President of Football Operations - John Elway (In charge of GM and Head Coach, final say on personnel)
Didn't we just get done hearing from Elway that he's not qualified to be the GM and didn't consider personnel decisions something he was going to be involved in? Now he's not only in charge of the GM apparently, but he's got the final say on personnel, something he said he wasn't qualified for and didn't want.

It appears nothing coming out of Dove Valley can ever be trusted. They (Bowlen et all) say one thing and turn right around and do the exact opposite. At a certain point I think this has moved from some kind of emergency response under pressure to an embedded part of this team's front office culture...like it really doesn't matter if what you communicate to the fans is truthful or not. I hope Elway is ready for the level of fan anger he's going to encounter if this experiment doesn't work. It was interesting this morning on Mike & Mike in the Morning...they pointed out that it almost never works for the superstar athlete to come back and coach or involve themselves in the managementof the team. Michael Jordan failed at this, so have others. John's unique and a smart guy so hopefully he's going to be leaving most of the personnel decisions in the hands of the next coach for now.

Drek
01-05-2011, 10:53 PM
McDaniels does have a lot of promise still but it is beginning to look like he got himself into a mess with Spygate II. If not SpyGate II it's something else. some issue is driving all this chain of events.

BTY I like Dennison for HC but Mularkey would be OK too.

I think McDaniels just believed himself to be the impervious golden child if Bill Belicheck, destined to NFL greatness and more than capable of handling all the rigors of being his team's lead front office man, scout, head coach, offensive coordinator, defensive coordinator, and every positional coach all in one.

In short, he believed/believes his **** don't stink.

When questioned on the spygate II deal I'd bet he probably didn't have a very cordial reaction, which would have played right into Ellis' hands.

Anyone I know that's come across Joe Ellis hasn't said a bad word about him and tells me he's a class act. I know from the outside looking in it may look shady but I'm not convinced he's the evil monster. With Elway on board, I don't think we'll hear or see much of Ellis from now on unless it's some type of stadium issue, ticket prices, etc.

Just my two cents.

A lot of high end con men come across as the nicest, classiest guys ever when you meet them. What I outlined above is what gives me my perception of how Ellis handles his actual profession. He hand picked McDaniels, cleared any organizational checks and balances from McDaniels, and then cans him a year and a half in as soon as the adversity really starts. Maybe it isn't some scam he's running and he really is that lost in the woods when it comes to football decisions. Either way having him involved at a high level is not a good omen unless Elway can pull a Daniel Nava.

BroncoBuff
01-06-2011, 08:40 AM
The TL,DR version of this post - Ellis is a ****bag conman. Elway has one hell of a fight out of the gate if he wants to fix this franchise. Best of luck #7.

TLDR. JK.

Couple things: I knew Joe pretty well in the 80s, he is/was one of the funniest most cheerful guys Iíve ever known. Every day dueling Howard Cosells, always good for a laugh. He was NFL Properties then, gave me assignments for Gameday Magazine, I'll never forget it. I say all this to counter the more personal aspects of your criticism, cause I know them to be wrong. Or at least KNEW them to be.

Canít argue with the rest of your post. Joe was the point man hiring McDaniels, back and forth interviewing, negotiating. And with Pat as disconnected as he is, Joe must've been the guy who let Goodman walk and allowed the roles get so muddled. Funny, but Joe and Josh are pretty similar really ... both naturally ambitious, eager to take on power and responsibility, and both probably took on more than they should have. Both because Bowlen is weak. Now it's John's turn.

TonyR
01-06-2011, 09:05 AM
Anyone I know that's come across Joe Ellis hasn't said a bad word about him and tells me he's a class act. I know from the outside looking in it may look shady but I'm not convinced he's the evil monster.

I think the "truth" is somewhere in between this and what Drek is saying. He's probably a "good guy", well intentioned, etc. But he's not a "football guy" and he completely screwed up with McD and everything that followed and now he's scrambling to course correct and cover his ass.

Drek
01-06-2011, 09:12 AM
TLDR. JK.

Couple things: I knew Joe pretty well in the 80s, he is/was one of the funniest most cheerful guys Iíve ever known. Every day dueling Howard Cosells, always good for a laugh. He was NFL Properties then, gave me assignments for Gameday Magazine, I'll never forget it. I say all this to counter the more personal aspects of your criticism, cause I know them to be wrong. Or at least KNEW them to be.

Canít argue with the rest of your post. Joe was the point man hiring McDaniels, back and forth interviewing, negotiating. And with Pat as disconnected as he is, Joe must've been the guy who let Goodman walk and allowed the roles get so muddled. Funny, but Joe and Josh are pretty similar really ... both naturally ambitious, eager to take on power and responsibility, and both probably took on more than they should have. Both because Bowlen is weak. Now it's John's turn.
I'm not saying he's a bad person, just a douchebag as an NFL exec. I can't speak to him as a person.

But its obvious he was the person who pulled the trigger on McDaniels, he had to be directly involved in the removal of Jim Goodman as a player personnel balance for McDaniels, and as soon as the McDaniels plan went awry he abandoned ship.

I'm sure Ellis fits your description of "naturally ambitious, eager to take on power and responsibility". I'm sure McDaniels having a similar temperament helped fuel Ellis' decisions. But the fact is a non-football guy bull dozed a path for McDaniels to make his mark on this team and then at the first signs of difficulty threw the baby out with the bathwater.

In a lot of ways its whats needed, since its the only way to restore the power divide within the organization and after all the bad blood Bus Cook and Cutler let on their way out of town McDaniels would need to win titles to win any real measure of fan support. Doesn't mean it wasn't stabbing a guy in the back less than two years after you put him in an untenable position.

Cito Pelon
01-06-2011, 11:10 AM
TLDR. JK.

Couple things: I knew Joe pretty well in the 80s, he is/was one of the funniest most cheerful guys Iíve ever known. Every day dueling Howard Cosells, always good for a laugh. He was NFL Properties then, gave me assignments for Gameday Magazine, I'll never forget it. I say all this to counter the more personal aspects of your criticism, cause I know them to be wrong. Or at least KNEW them to be.

Canít argue with the rest of your post. Joe was the point man hiring McDaniels, back and forth interviewing, negotiating. And with Pat as disconnected as he is, Joe must've been the guy who let Goodman walk and allowed the roles get so muddled. Funny, but Joe and Josh are pretty similar really ... both naturally ambitious, eager to take on power and responsibility, and both probably took on more than they should have. Both because Bowlen is weak. Now it's John's turn.

Do you think Elway can unseat Ellis as President?

BroncoBuff
01-06-2011, 05:44 PM
Do you think Elway can unseat Ellis as President?

Two different departments I'm thinking. Yes, John ostensibly reports to Joe, and it's telling Ellis was given the president title concurrent with John's hire as a VP, but I can't imagine there's anything like a boss-employee relationship, Joe won't sit him down for an annual performance review or anything like that.

Joe Ellis is not a football guy and he knows it. Quoting Joe: "John will oversee ALL football operations. The structure is both the head coach and general manager will report directly to John." That's a clear designation of roles and departments. I was in Denver last year during the Jarvis Moss "weekend leave of absence," and in a radio interview he said three or four times "I can't speak to the onfield issues," things like that.

It's all Bowlen's fault, every single solitary bit of everything. His let both Josh and Joe dangle out there with far too much latitude, each struggling to learn as they went. I'll bet there's been dozens of days the past couple years where Joe was like, "I can't get Pat again today, Sacco!" "Well Joe, you either have to make the decision, or drive out to his place and hope to get him up."

baja
01-06-2011, 06:00 PM
TLDR. JK.

Couple things: I knew Joe pretty well in the 80s, he is/was one of the funniest most cheerful guys Iíve ever known. Every day dueling Howard Cosells, always good for a laugh. He was NFL Properties then, gave me assignments for Gameday Magazine, I'll never forget it. I say all this to counter the more personal aspects of your criticism, cause I know them to be wrong. Or at least KNEW them to be.

<b>Canít argue with the rest of your post. Joe was the point man hiring McDaniels, back and forth interviewing, negotiating. And with Pat as disconnected as he is, Joe must've been the guy who let Goodman walk and allowed the roles get so muddled. Funny, but Joe and Josh are pretty similar really ... both naturally ambitious, eager to take on power and responsibility, and both probably took on more than they should have. Both because Bowlen is weak. Now it's John's turn.

And now it's John's turn....


So true.

I was wondering where you went now I see you jut changed your name.

Why do people change their board names ???

Drek
01-06-2011, 06:17 PM
Two different departments I'm thinking. Yes, John ostensibly reports to Joe, and it's telling Ellis was given the president title concurrent with John's hire as a VP, but I can't imagine there's anything like a boss-employee relationship, Joe won't sit him down for an annual performance review or anything like that.

Joe Ellis is not a football guy and he knows it. Quoting Joe: "John will oversee ALL football operations. The structure is both the head coach and general manager will report directly to John." That's a clear designation of roles and departments. I was in Denver last year during the Jarvis Moss "weekend leave of absence," and in a radio interview he said three or four times "I can't speak to the onfield issues," things like that.

It's all Bowlen's fault, every single solitary bit of everything. His let both Josh and Joe dangle out there with far too much latitude, each struggling to learn as they went. I'll bet there's been dozens of days the past couple years where Joe was like, "I can't get Pat again today, Sacco!" "Well Joe, you either have to make the decision, or drive out to his place and hope to get him up."

That very well might be the case, but Ellis pursued that level of organizational control in the first place.

Playing corporate politics to climb the company ladder is as American as apple pie and jerking off to blonde playboy centerfolds. But in a football organization where that brass ring entails making football decisions you see a clear distinction between the successful and struggling teams. The former have football guys calling the football shots. The later have corporate types who've climbed the ladder dictating how the football side of things will go down.

Ellis put himself in a position to call the shots and when he finally grabbed that brass ring he went to work with great aplomb. But when the first cracks started to show in his football choices he and Xanders fell back to corporate politics, i.e. you CYA by pointing fingers and running for cover.

Five people are going to get the Broncos back to the top, none are named Ellis, Xanders or Bowlen. Its Elway, Tebow, Kidd, Russell, and whomever the next HC might be.

And now it's John's turn....


So true.

I was wondering where you went now I see you jut changed your name.

Why do people change their board names ???

I don't know, it baffles me.

baja
01-06-2011, 06:23 PM
That very well might be the case, but Ellis pursued that level of organizational control in the first place.

Playing corporate politics to climb the company ladder is as American as apple pie and jerking off to blonde playboy centerfolds. But in a football organization where that brass ring entails making football decisions you see a clear distinction between the successful and struggling teams. The former have football guys calling the football shots. The later have corporate types who've climbed the ladder dictating how the football side of things will go down.

Ellis put himself in a position to call the shots and when he finally grabbed that brass ring he went to work with great aplomb. But when the first cracks started to show in his football choices he and Xanders fell back to corporate politics, i.e. you CYA by pointing fingers and running for cover.

<b>Five people are going to get the Broncos back to the top, none are named Ellis, Xanders or Bowlen. Its Elway, Tebow, Kidd, Russell, and whomever the next HC might be.



I don't know, it baffles me.

Right! Except for me the verdict is still out with Xanders. They had the perfect time to get rid of him yet kept him. If you are signed on with Elway you gotta take Xanders too because Elway endorsed him and threw Josh under the bus, actually a fleet of buses.

Drek
01-06-2011, 06:38 PM
Right! Except for me the verdict is still out with Xanders. They had the perfect time to get rid of him yet kept him. If you are signed on with Elway you gotta take Xanders too because Elway endorsed him and threw Josh under the bus, actually a fleet of buses.

Did he though?

Elway hasn't been in the halls of the FO the last two years. His knowledge of the past two years comes entirely from what Ellis and Xanders have told him.

Look over his comments with regards to Xanders. He doesn't give much praise in them. He just acknowledges that Xanders had limited say while McDaniels was here, and that it is now in Xanders' hands to show himself to be a capable true NFL GM.

I find it highly likely that Xanders is still here because he was part of Ellis' football moves and the means by which McDaniels became the fall guy was to say that he became a Shanahan-esque dictator within the organization. Keeping Xanders is Ellis' shot to still claim himself half right on his organizational overhaul at the end of the day.

Xanders is going to live and die by the work Kieth Kidd and Matt Russell hand him, assuming he doesn't then **** it up. Elway and the Broncos as a whole will live and die by the quality of work done by Xanders and the next HC.

baja
01-06-2011, 06:47 PM
Did he though?

Elway hasn't been in the halls of the FO the last two years. His knowledge of the past two years comes entirely from what Ellis and Xanders have told him.

Look over his comments with regards to Xanders. He doesn't give much praise in them. He just acknowledges that Xanders had limited say while McDaniels was here, and that it is now in Xanders' hands to show himself to be a capable true NFL GM.

I find it highly likely that Xanders is still here because he was part of Ellis' football moves and the means by which McDaniels became the fall guy was to say that he became a Shanahan-esque dictator within the organization. Keeping Xanders is Ellis' shot to still claim himself half right on his organizational overhaul at the end of the day.

Xanders is going to live and die by the work Kieth Kidd and Matt Russell hand him, assuming he doesn't then **** it up. Elway and the Broncos as a whole will live and die by the quality of work done by Xanders and the next HC.

My guess is Elway would not have taken the job under those terms. Remember John said he did some checking outside the organization about Xanders and everyone he contacted gave high praise to Xanders. Elway was hired to run the football side of the team and he sure would not start off by allowing Ellis to cram an unwanted GM up his butt.

TonyR
01-06-2011, 06:51 PM
Look over his comments with regards to Xanders. He doesn't give much praise in them. He just acknowledges that Xanders had limited say while McDaniels was here, and that it is now in Xanders' hands to show himself to be a capable true NFL GM.


But why would Elway want to be in this situation? Why wouldn't he tell Pat that they need to get an experienced GM that he can trust? Elway is tying his own reputation to a guy he may not think is capable of doing a good job. So I hope he actually thinks Xanders is up to the task, particularly after saying that he himself wasn't capable of being a GM and didn't want to be a GM.

BroncoBuff
01-06-2011, 09:01 PM
I was wondering where you went now I see you jut changed your name.

Why do people change their board names ??? I don't know, it baffles me.

First time for me ... I was in the name change thread and had a weak moment.

Strange nobody commented on my avatar ... took me over an hour to put that together. I like the Bronco Bat-light ... the universal symbol for franchise in distress. That pic started with just Keck and the stars. Newton with the football works too.


http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/6167/avvy.png

baja
01-06-2011, 09:03 PM
First time for me ... I was in the name change thread and had a weak moment.

Strange nobody commented on my avatar ... took me over an hour to put that together. I like the Bronco Bat-light ... the universal symbol for franchise in distress. That pic started with just Keck and the stars. Newton with the football works too.


http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/6167/avvy.png

Who are you and what did you do with Something Random? ;D

SoCalBronco
01-08-2011, 03:30 PM
boo....he is what Jim Dolan is to the NYR's.....

Ellis officially being named President reminds me of the old M. Bison ending on Street Fighter.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/a7jMTSWnssg?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/a7jMTSWnssg?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

epicSocialism4tw
01-08-2011, 08:24 PM
Ellis is President...




















...of the Universe.

Drek
01-09-2011, 05:58 AM
But why would Elway want to be in this situation? Why wouldn't he tell Pat that they need to get an experienced GM that he can trust? Elway is tying his own reputation to a guy he may not think is capable of doing a good job. So I hope he actually thinks Xanders is up to the task, particularly after saying that he himself wasn't capable of being a GM and didn't want to be a GM.

Elway isn't stepping in with full control. He's in a shared power situation with Ellis. Elway isn't tying his reputation to Xanders who wasn't his hire, especially if he cans Xanders within the next year or two, which will happen if Xanders doesn't do a bang up job.

Elways own words is that now Xanders can't "hide" from here on out. Not exactly a rousing vote of confidence.

baja
01-09-2011, 06:04 AM
Elway isn't stepping in with full control. He's in a shared power situation with Ellis. Elway isn't tying his reputation to Xanders who wasn't his hire, especially if he cans Xanders within the next year or two, which will happen if Xanders doesn't do a bang up job.

<b>Elways own words is that now Xanders can't "hide" from here on out. Not exactly a rousing vote of confidence.

My guess is this photo was snapped at the exact moment Elway was saying the above.

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/ap/d4/fullj.638f5a548723816f7975c1b2bdbe8a44/ap-8ed38fc9cda24e2ebd6d432644483c51.jpg

CEH
01-09-2011, 07:35 AM
Not even interviewing GMs, sitting down for 3 hours and talking football and business is a pretty telling sign this was not the direction they wanted to go

My guess is Elway needs a bridge. A person that has been around Dove Valley and knows where the skeletons are hidden. I doubt John has any real connections to the current GM community in fact his point of reference was Ernie Acrosi who retired what 10 years ago

Would not be supreised to see John can Xanders after a year on the job unless he's hitting homeruns with the draft.

TonyR
01-09-2011, 07:42 AM
Elway isn't stepping in with full control.

I agree, but this makes no sense considering Elway's comments a couple of weeks ago that he didn't want that kind of role.

footstepsfrom#27
01-09-2011, 08:08 AM
He has been for some time, so I guess this just makes it official.
Hey...smart move by the gutless drunk I think. Might as well offically tag Ellis with the responsibility for his own actions by having the title on the door change. That takes the onus off Elway's back as well for the time being. If Elway is only the #2 guy in this picture, that makes Ellis the front office equivilent of Steve DeBerg, doesn't it? We need to see Elway develop in the background for at least a year before he's ready for this job...so since Ellis isn''t going anyhwere, promote his way out the door in another year if need be. If I'm Bowlen...I'm telling this cat on the side that he better get his **** together or his ass is history along with Josh's. The only reasonable explanation for him still being here if you don't think Bowlen is losing his marbles, is that keeping Ellis around another year with a nice new title makes him the sacrificial lamb like he was a Shanny DC in another year. Then John can step in with less pressure right off the bat.

Are we smart enough for this? ???

footstepsfrom#27
01-09-2011, 08:18 AM
Not even interviewing GMs, sitting down for 3 hours and talking football and business is a pretty telling sign this was not the direction they wanted to go

My guess is Elway needs a bridge. A person that has been around Dove Valley and knows where the skeletons are hidden. I doubt John has any real connections to the current GM community in fact his point of reference was Ernie Acrosi who retired what 10 years ago

Would not be supreised to see John can Xanders after a year on the job unless he's hitting homeruns with the draft.
He needs to make friends with the people who clean the offices, lunchroom workers, janitors, etc...all the little people who can put the finger on any dirty back offiice dealings Ellis might be involved in. I wouldn't turn my back on that sniveling little troll for half a second. Then Elway needs to back up and stop doing press conferences, or talking to reporters at all. He can issue a statement that he's going to work and the answers to the Tebow controvercy have been provided by him and the reporter as well. End of discussion. Then he ought to get busy studying his arse off to learn what he's doing so that a year from now Bowlen can safely jettison Ellis and Xanders as well without putting John into that inner circle. Elway needs to distance himself a bit from those two...does he not? I think Bowlen sees him as the future...so why link yourself to closely with the past? Especially when it's the giant pile of dog crap like this has been? John needs to ride the pine for a year and let Bowlen work these two out of his system like a good bowel movement.

Drek
01-09-2011, 10:16 AM
I agree, but this makes no sense considering Elway's comments a couple of weeks ago that he didn't want that kind of role.

I don't think Elway will ever want GM type responsibilities. He's basically going to take the place of Shanahan/Ellis as the day to day manager of the football operations.

What I'm saying though is that Elway likely doesn't have 100% full disclosure on all the problems in the FO and as a result he's highly skeptical of anything he's been told by anyone not named Pat Bowlen. He's going to evaluate Xanders and co. on his own and at the same time gain familiarity with what their job entails and how others around the league are handling it. Then in a year or two if he's unhappy with how Xanders is performing he'll replace him with someone from another organization.

He's stuck with Xanders for at least one year because Ellis is going to champion his other hire opposite McDaniels in an attempt to save some face. Elway isn't powerful enough to unilaterally tell Ellis to shove it and boot Xanders. He isn't involved in NFL circles enough to know the right people to hire going forward. So as a result Xanders keeps his job but is working on a short leash.