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Popps
01-04-2011, 01:11 PM
Wow, pretty pointed comments here...

Mark Schlereth on Mike Shanahan's decision-making, ego ... and more
By Cindy Boren

Kevin Ewoldt of Hogs Haven talked to ESPN's Mark Schlereth last week and got plenty of insight and opinion from him on Mike Shanahan as a coach and personnel guy. Schlereth is in a position to know...he played for Shanahan in Denver.

Ewoldt: "Back in July, you said Shanahan was very aware of the reason he was out in Denver -- the poor personnel decisions in the draft & free agency. Here we are one year into this and the Redskins burned 2 high draft picks for a QB that's out in 1-year & 3rd round pick for a banged up Tackle that will be a free agent in 2 weeks. Is he still a bad GM?"

Schlereth: "It's a little bit of a different situation. He had some stability in Denver and he had good players, but he made bad draft choice after bad draft choice. And then he chased those bad draft choices with bad free agent moves. [The Redskins] are an organization that was still lacking some depth and legit, big time quarterbacks. They tried to patch a hole, obviously. The jury is still out on those moves and how much Mike Shanahan plays in that and how much is on Bruce Allen and the owner."

Ewoldt: "Well, Warren Sapp said Bruce Allen is nothing more than a guy that plays golf with the alumni and works the salary cap and contracts."

Schlereth: "[laughing] If that's the case...I've known Mike for a very long time in regards to those personnel moves and there are a lot of things you kind of look at and scratch your head and I could go through tons of them that happened in Denver which made zero sense."

Ewoldt: "For example?"

Schlereth: "Let's start with the draft. Ashley Lelie. Really? Deltha O'Neal, who played running back in college at Cal Berkley got switched to defensive back. We drafted him in the first round. Does that truly make sense? Guys like Willie Middlebrooks. You've never heard of them. [Willie was a] defensive back from the University of Minnesota that never panned out. 1st round draft choice. George Foster -1st round draft choice, who was injured his last year in college with a broken wrist and really couldn't bend his wrist. A lot of people thought he'd be available in the 4th or 5th round and we took him with the 24th pick overall in the draft. I can go on and on and on.

"And then free agent wise. Whether it was Daryl Gardener from the Miami Dolphins or a handful of other guys that really didn't pan out. A lot of poor moves in that regard. When you make poor draft choices, and that's the biggest thing, you're forced to chase those poor draft choices because if they don't pan out, in the free agent market you try to patch a hole. The problem being one bad choice makes you chase another guy and another guy. It makes you draft people and chase free agents out of position and overpay those guys. I think it's been a problem in Washington even before Mike ever got there."

Ewoldt: "There's ten years of game film on McNabb throwing these worm balls. How did Shanahan not see that he was a bad fit?"

Schlereth: "OK, let me tell you. And this is endemic of all coaches. Don't just put this on Mike, you can put this on anybody. Donovan's biggest issue has been accuracy. He's always struggled over his career with being a very accurate QB. I can put on any game film this year of Donovan and there's six or seven balls a game where he throws them into the dirt where nobody has an opportunity [to make the catch]. Where you're like, "Really?" It's a 7-yard throw and you threw it four yards short in the dirt. How can that be? And, the problem with coaches in general is they really feel like they can cure or fix anybody. From the inaccuracy, they'll say, 'Oh, it's his footwork. Under my expert tutelage I'll get him to setup a different way. I'll get his knees bent a little bit more. I'll get his weight distributed more evenly. And I'll fix this issue.'

"The problem comes under duress you revert back to schoolyard and bad habits. Anytime you got a little bit of stress or pressure, inevitably you revert back to what you've always been. Coaches think they can fix people mechanically. It comes down to ego. They think they can fix a guy who's an absolute terd everywhere he's been and they think they can take that guy under their expert tutelage they're going to go play."

Ewoldt: "How much of the offensive coordinating is Kyle doing versus Mike? You worked with Kubiak as a Coordinator in Denver, and as fans, we see the Head Coach's son as a coordinator and there's really no risk of him losing his job."

Schlereth: "Yeah, I don't know if that's a great situation, but Mike always has his hands in it. Whether he is calling plays or Kyle is calling plays, the bottom line, and this is the way it was in Denver, those coaches put a game plan together, Mike will review it, add to it, subtract from it, say 'I like this. I don't like this.' He is intimately involved in the game planning and the execution of the game plan. Don't think it falls on Kyle. Nothing gets called on the football field on Sunday that hasn't been approved through Mike's desk in the course of the week."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/early-lead/2011/01/mark_schlereth_on_mike_shanaha.html

bronco militia
01-04-2011, 01:17 PM
I don't have a problem with what he said....I've heard Stink make these same comments on the air several times here in colorado

crowebomber
01-04-2011, 01:18 PM
If Schlereth made statements publicly questioning Shanahan's decisions at the time they were made, then I must have missed them. I'm not trying to defend Shanahan, because obviously looking back, they were bad moves. But that's just it, hindsight is always 20/20, so Schlereth is no better than any of us bellyaching after the fact. And why didn't we pick Ed Reed? Blah, blah, blah.

PRBronco
01-04-2011, 01:19 PM
Haha holy ****.

Kaylore
01-04-2011, 01:23 PM
That last bit is false. The last season Shanahan was here, he called plays in a few games, plays which got blown up, that they didn't practice at all that week and they tried in critical situations.

I feel bad for Shanahan. Hiring his own son and working for a crappy owner puts him in a difficult situation.

baja
01-04-2011, 01:25 PM
This has been obvious for a long time

bronco militia
01-04-2011, 01:25 PM
I feel bad for Shanahan. Hiring his own son and working for a crappy owner puts him in a difficult situation.

you feel bad? This is the deal he wanted

frerottenextelway
01-04-2011, 01:25 PM
That's ripping?

Kaylore
01-04-2011, 01:27 PM
you feel bad? This is the deal he wanted

I know. He made his own bed. I just have a lot of respect for him and don't want him to do poorly.

bronco militia
01-04-2011, 01:28 PM
I know. He made his own bed. I just have a lot of respect for him and don't want him to do poorly.

ok...

He jumped the shark when he benched Mcnabb in Detroit.

Popps
01-04-2011, 01:29 PM
That's ripping?

You say tomato.

Just haven't heard many ex-players of a coach be so explicit about his opinions, particularly a guy who he won a SB with.

Popps
01-04-2011, 01:30 PM
I know. He made his own bed. I just have a lot of respect for him and don't want him to do poorly.

Same here.

I knew it was time for him to go. That was painfully obvious and this season in Washington only solidifies that. But, I'll always hold the guy in high regard for what he did for us. I just can't figure out for the life of me how you can put a team together like he did when he got to Denver... and then just pretty much forget how to do it after that. His success post-Elway was almost 100% due to his game-day coaching, imo.

theAPAOps5
01-04-2011, 01:31 PM
Stink was just stating the obvious, far from ripping him. Same thing he says on the radio every week. He also credits Shanny to extending his career another few seasons. He states that pretty regularly. Stink is pretty fair in his criticism and praise.

broncswin
01-04-2011, 01:31 PM
That last bit is false. The last season Shanahan was here, he called plays in a few games, plays which got blown up, that they didn't practice at all that week and they tried in critical situations.

I feel bad for Shanahan. Hiring his own son and working for a crappy owner puts him in a difficult situation.

Shanny will always be remembered, by me, for those huge trophies...but there is no way in hell I feel sorry for him and his situation...he chose it and has added a few more kinks.Ha!

theAPAOps5
01-04-2011, 01:33 PM
Shanny will always be remembered, by me, for those huge trophies...but there is no way in hell I feel sorry for him and his situation...he chose it and has added a few more kinks.Ha!

I find it hard to feel sorry for him with his $34 million contract and $7 million from the Broncos and his awesome steak house and his gigantic mansion and his healthy family.

He is set for life and you want to be remembered for who you are not what you did for your job.

frerottenextelway
01-04-2011, 01:33 PM
You say tomato.

Just haven't heard many ex-players of a coach be so explicit about his opinions, particularly a guy who he won a SB with.


I find what he said obvious and I'm deep in the pro-Shanahan camp. We made a lot of bad personnel moves, no doubt.

jhns
01-04-2011, 01:33 PM
That's ripping?

This. Wtf are you talking about? He was being honest about stuff everybody says. He didn't say anything about him being a horrible coach or personality. He has had trouble in the personnel department. That is being captain obvious, not ripping...

Anyways, people can question his work in Washington all they want. He improved that team in a single offseason while changing both systems. Every front office makes mistakes every year. One or two mistakes don't mean much if the team is improving.

bronco militia
01-04-2011, 01:34 PM
and I don't feel bad for McNabb....Rush Limbaugh was right

Tombstone RJ
01-04-2011, 01:35 PM
That last bit is false. The last season Shanahan was here, he called plays in a few games, plays which got blown up, that they didn't practice at all that week and they tried in critical situations.

I feel bad for Shanahan. Hiring his own son and working for a crappy owner puts him in a difficult situation.

Don't feel sorry for Shanny, he's digging his own grave and ego is what is killing him. The Skins defense is example A of a guy who is not really in touch with what is best for a team. Its his own fault because he thinks he's smarter than everyone else.

Jetmeck
01-04-2011, 01:40 PM
truth is well...the truth.

Popps
01-04-2011, 01:40 PM
I find what he said obvious and I'm deep in the pro-Shanahan camp. We made a lot of bad personnel moves, no doubt.

Right, but you and I are dudes on a message board. Just somewhat surprising to hear this line of thought from an ex-player, even if it is his job to run his mouth.

Tombstone RJ
01-04-2011, 01:40 PM
Same here.

I knew it was time for him to go. That was painfully obvious and this season in Washington only solidifies that. But, I'll always hold the guy in high regard for what he did for us. I just can't figure out for the life of me how you can put a team together like he did when he got to Denver... and then just pretty much forget how to do it after that. His success post-Elway was almost 100% due to his game-day coaching, imo.

IMHO, his success is what spoiled him. That and having Elway and getting extremely lucky with Terrell Davis.

Shanny bought into his on press and Bowlen allowed him to run the team no questions asked.

If I was Bowlen I would have done things differently. I would have pulled Mike into my office and told him (say in 2007 or so) I was bringing in a GM to make all the football decisions. He could stay as HC but his title as VP of Football Operations was going away. If he didn't like he, he could resign.

This way, I (Bowlen) make the team better and if Shanny wants to walk, I don't get stuck paying him an outrageous sum of money for the next 5 years.

BroncoInferno
01-04-2011, 01:42 PM
If Schlereth made statements publicly questioning Shanahan's decisions at the time they were made, then I must have missed them. I'm not trying to defend Shanahan, because obviously looking back, they were bad moves. But that's just it, hindsight is always 20/20, so Schlereth is no better than any of us bellyaching after the fact. And why didn't we pick Ed Reed? Blah, blah, blah.

People scratched their heads over most of those moves even at the time. The only one that I think Schlereth is wrong about was Lelie. He was projected to go in the top 15 and we needed help at WR with Eddie Mac pretty much done after the leg injury. Not that everyone agreed with the pick, but you could justify based on need and where the player was projected. There is no arguing that most analyst were scratching there heads over guys like Foster and Middlebrooks, and their skepticism was proven well founded.

Tombstone RJ
01-04-2011, 01:43 PM
Paul Toviessi. Why? Why Mike, why?

bendog
01-04-2011, 01:45 PM
STinky is still mad that Shanny cut him before he got the million dollar roster bonus. lol There is somethign Captain Ahabish about shanny though

<img src="http://www.thecaptainsmemos.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/ahab.jpg">

baja
01-04-2011, 01:52 PM
IMHO, his success is what spoiled him. That and having Elway and getting extremely lucky with Terrell Davis.

Shanny bought into his on press and Bowlen allowed him to run the team no questions asked.

If I was Bowlen I would have done things differently.<b> I would have pulled Mike into my office and told him (say in 2007 or so) I was bringing in a GM to make all the football decisions. He could stay as HC but his title as VP of Football Operations was going away. If he didn't like he, he could resign.</b>

This way, I (Bowlen) make the team better and if Shanny wants to walk, I don't get stuck paying him an outrageous sum of money for the next 5 years.

I have been saying this for a long time too.

To me this was the first indication Pat was going soft. He should have made this offer to Mike and made it public before he fired him.

BroncoInferno
01-04-2011, 01:56 PM
Anyways, people can question his work in Washington all they want. He improved that team in a single offseason while changing both systems. Every front office makes mistakes every year. One or two mistakes don't mean much if the team is improving.

They looked improved at the beginning of the season, but they looked horrible over the last half of the season (sound familiar?). Shanny is a great coach, and would be fine if he would just stick to coaching and let someone qualified call the personnel shots. How is he going to improve the team this off season? He gutted their picks with the McNabb and Jamaal Brown trades (they don't have a single pick in rounds 2, 3 or 4), and neither of those players have worked out very well. Does he draft a QB in the 1st? It almost seems like he has to. He can't possibly move forward with Grossman as his QB long term. If he does draft a QB, how is he going to improve their mediocre WR corp or piss poor defense? If he's smart, he look to move down in order to replinish some of those lost picks. Unfortunately, Shanny the GM is too focused on finding the quick fix rather than looking for long term solutions that may not pay off right away (for the most part, anyway).

ColoradoDarin
01-04-2011, 02:01 PM
So will Shanahan trade this years 1st plus a 5th plus next years 1st for #2 overall to select his QBOTF?

I hope so.

2KBack
01-04-2011, 02:05 PM
They looked improved at the beginning of the season, but they looked horrible over the last half of the season (sound familiar?). Shanny is a great coach, and would be fine if he would just stick to coaching and let someone qualified call the personnel shots. How is he going to improve the team this off season? He gutted their picks with the McNabb and Jamaal Brown trades (they don't have a single pick in rounds 2, 3 or 4), and neither of those players have worked out very well. Does he draft a QB in the 1st? It almost seems like he has to. He can't possibly move forward with Grossman as his QB long term. If he does draft a QB, how is he going to improve their mediocre WR corp or piss poor defense? If he's smart, he look to move down in order to replinish some of those lost picks. Unfortunately, Shanny the GM is too focused on finding the quick fix rather than looking for long term solutions that may not pay off right away (for the most part, anyway).

It's smoke an mirrors improvement anyway. Washington had a worse Points Deferential this season. In 2009 Wash scored 16.6 pts a game and allowed 21. In 2010 Wash Scored 18.9 and allowed 23.6. A 2 point increase in offense and a 2 point increase (which is bad) in defense. Hence a wash. Statistically Shanahan and McNabb were the same as Zorn and Campbell.

BroncoInferno
01-04-2011, 02:05 PM
So will Shanahan trade this years 1st plus a 5th plus next years 1st for #2 overall to select his QBOTF?

I hope so.

He's not going to have a shot at Luck even if he leaves school, but depending on which juniors declare and how the various offseason workouts go, there could be as many as four additional QBs with 1st round grades (Locker, Mallet, Newton, and Gabbard). Just a hunch, but Locker strikes me as the guy Shanny would key in on if he decides to pick a QB.

baja
01-04-2011, 02:07 PM
So will Shanahan trade this years 1st plus a 5th plus next years 1st for #2 overall to select his QBOTF?

I hope so.

that would be sweet. Throw in Haynesworth too.

OBF1
01-04-2011, 02:10 PM
I am going to cut and paste this thread and email it to Atlas :)

Rohirrim
01-04-2011, 02:10 PM
Seems to me this is a great argument for keeping HC and GM separate.

HC can go to the owner and say, "Hey! I didn't pick these ****ty players."

Of course, the GM can go to the owner and say, "These guys are good players, this coach sucks."

When you have both jobs, you've got no out.

Tombstone RJ
01-04-2011, 02:12 PM
Shanahan's best bet is to stick with McNabb and try and build a team around McNabb's strengths (believe it or not McNabb is a good QB).

Mike here's what you need to do: get the running game going with the best RB you can find in the draft. As for the rest of the draft, defense, defense and more defense (but let Allen do the picking and you just do the coaching).

Get the running game going (this you know how to do) and work off play action and the long ball with McNabb. Go with McNabb's strength's--making plays outside the pocket. Treat him like a rich man's Jake Plummer :) and don't over complicate your scheme.

Play great defense. You have a great defensive coordinator, let him do his job. You have to play smash mouth mistake free football. Don't over complicate your schemes, just execute your basic schemes with precision and dicipline. When the play breaks down, let McNabb be McNabb and improvise. On defense, play smart football.

If your lucky, you'll be in contention at the end of the year.

BroncoBuff
01-04-2011, 02:12 PM
Can't argue with much he said. Mike always thinks he's so very clever, when more often than not he outsmarts himself. Very similar to Al Davis actually.

2KBack
01-04-2011, 02:13 PM
Shanahan's best bet is to stick with McNabb and try and build a team around McNabb's strengths (believe it or not McNabb is a good QB).

Mike here's what you need to do: get the running game going with the best RB you can find in the draft. As for the rest of the draft, defense, defense and more defense (but let Allen do the picking and you just do the coaching).

Get the running game going (this you know how to do) and work off play action and the long ball with McNabb. Go with McNabb's strength's--making plays outside the pocket. Tread him like a rich man's Jake Plummer :)

Play great defense. You have a great defensive coordinator, let him do his job. Your has to play smash mouth mistake free football. Don't over complicate your schemes, just execute your basic schemes with precision and dicipline. When the play breaks down, let McNabb be McNabb and improvise. On defense, play smart football.

If your lucky, you'll be in contention at the end of the year.

Sorry he tried that in 2005 and for some reason hated it

Mile High Shack
01-04-2011, 02:15 PM
Stink speaks the truth, the downfall of Shanny was his lack of GM skills

the last few years when he relinquished a tad bit of control from the draft, it got better....but overall, when you pick guys like Middlebrooks, Tovessi, Lelie, it kinda shows he sucked at personnel matters

now, game day, I would be hard pressed to find a better coach

BroncoBuff
01-04-2011, 02:15 PM
Seems to me this is a great argument for keeping HC and GM separate.

When you have both jobs, you've got no out.

THANK you. And having just one job leaves you breathing room, or the feelling of breathing room anyway. The kind of breathing room a young, first-time head coach really needs.

Dedhed
01-04-2011, 02:18 PM
So will Shanahan trade this years 1st plus a 5th plus next years 1st for #2 overall to select his QBOTF?

I'd rather he packages that deal for Orton.

bendog
01-04-2011, 02:23 PM
Sorry he tried that in 2005 and for some reason hated it

hE HAD a great DC in 05? Really. Where is that guy coaching today?

Shanny gambled that having a really good def would let McNabb and a pretty lame stable of backs and wr's cobble out ten wins. But then he imploded the defense with the 3-4 switch pissing off Fat Albert, and he severely overrated McNabb's mental ability to make the reads in his offense.

Shanny always gambled on winning an extra game a year, but the fact that he inherited a good team, and only had to shore up a couple of positions from year to year covered for his crazy free agent ways until 05. He had to get a new qb because Plummer was a fail in terms of being a champion who didn't choke and simutaneously his oline all got injured: Lepsis, Hamilton and Nalen. There was nothing to mask the sucking sound on defense, and there was no way to say the sucking sound on defense could be fixed so long as he kept a deathgrip on hiring career position coaches to be marginal def coordinators and running off guys like Paymah and Foxworth for Dre Bly.

Tombstone RJ
01-04-2011, 02:23 PM
Sorry he tried that in 2005 and for some reason hated it

Yah, Shanny needs to look at his 2005 team and apply it to the Skins. Mike, you can do this!!

Tombstone RJ
01-04-2011, 02:26 PM
hE HAD a great DC in 05? Really. Where is that guy coaching today?

Shanny gambled that having a really good def would let McNabb and a pretty lame stable of backs and wr's cobble out ten wins. But then he imploded the defense with the 3-4 switch pissing off Fat Albert, and he severely overrated McNabb's mental ability to make the reads in his offense.

Shanny always gambled on winning an extra game a year, but the fact that he inherited a good team, and only had to shore up a couple of positions from year to year covered for his crazy free agent ways until 05. He had to get a new qb because Plummer was a fail in terms of being a champion who didn't choke and simutaneously his oline all got injured: Lepsis, Hamilton and Nalen. There was nothing to mask the sucking sound on defense, and there was no way to say the sucking sound on defense could be fixed so long as he kept a deathgrip on hiring career position coaches to be marginal def coordinators and running off guys like Paymah and Foxworth for Dre Bly.

Wasn't 2005 the year the Broncos went 13-3 with Coyer as the defensive coordinator?

bendog
01-04-2011, 02:26 PM
http://blogs.fredericksburg.com/redskinsjournal/2010/07/27/mark-schlereth-mike-shanahans-training-camp-is-about-tempo/

http://blog.redskins.com/2010/01/06/mark-schlereth-on-the-shanahan-hire/

any way the wind blows, doesn't really matter much to me....

bendog
01-04-2011, 02:27 PM
Wasn't 2005 the year the Broncos went 13-3 with Coyer as the defensive coordinator?

yep. he's with the colts now. Still a DC

Mile High Shack
01-04-2011, 02:28 PM
yep. he's with the colts now. Still a DC

and doing a pretty good job I must say

Requiem
01-04-2011, 02:40 PM
Nobody will ever, ****ING ever, forgive him for the Claw.

Can't forgive him for Clarett over Marion Barber III either. I started choking when that pick was announced.

Three defensive backs in a row. GTFO.

Mike sucked at FA and the Draft.

The only thing that saved his ass was riding out two Super Bowl wins that happened well over a decade ago.

PISS.

jhns
01-04-2011, 02:45 PM
They looked improved at the beginning of the season, but they looked horrible over the last half of the season (sound familiar?). Shanny is a great coach, and would be fine if he would just stick to coaching and let someone qualified call the personnel shots. How is he going to improve the team this off season? He gutted their picks with the McNabb and Jamaal Brown trades (they don't have a single pick in rounds 2, 3 or 4), and neither of those players have worked out very well. Does he draft a QB in the 1st? It almost seems like he has to. He can't possibly move forward with Grossman as his QB long term. If he does draft a QB, how is he going to improve their mediocre WR corp or piss poor defense? If he's smart, he look to move down in order to replinish some of those lost picks. Unfortunately, Shanny the GM is too focused on finding the quick fix rather than looking for long term solutions that may not pay off right away (for the most part, anyway).

I think Shanahan has a problem with personnel and needs to have the right personnel guys around him. He was drafting a LOT better in his last few years here after he found the Goodmans and gave them more power.

That being said. He still improved the team in his first year there. It is dumb to question him while he improves the team. If the team doesn't continue to improve next season, then would be the time to question him. How can you claim he is doing a bad job as they are getting better? It doesn't make sense at all.

Taco John
01-04-2011, 02:49 PM
George Foster -1st round draft choice, who was injured his last year in college with a broken wrist and really couldn't bend his wrist. A lot of people thought he'd be available in the 4th or 5th round and we took him with the 24th pick overall in the draft. I can go on and on and on.

I followed that draft pretty closely because I wanted one of the LTs in that draft. I read a lot of people who said Foster would be going in the top 6 if it weren't for that accident. I don't recall reading a single draft that said Foster would fall out of the upper second round.

Obviously, he didn't pan out. But to say that there were a lot of draftniks that had Foster going in the 4th or 5th round... I don't know where that's coming from.

Tombstone RJ
01-04-2011, 02:50 PM
Nobody will ever, ****ING ever, forgive him for the Claw.

Can't forgive him for Clarett over Marion Barber III either. I started choking when that pick was announced.

Three defensive backs in a row. GTFO.

Mike sucked at FA and the Draft.

The only thing that saved his ass was riding out two Super Bowl wins that happened well over a decade ago.

PISS.

Give Mike credit where credit is due. Mike Shanahan the GM got Mike Shanahan the coach fired. Mike Shanahan the coach is one of the best IMHO.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-04-2011, 02:50 PM
Popps, why do you hate the Broncos?

Popps, why are you a Raider fan?

Popps, how dare you ever question anyone involved or formerly involved with this franchise that isn't named Josh McDaniels?

jhns
01-04-2011, 02:52 PM
The only thing that saved his ass was riding out two Super Bowl wins that happened well over a decade ago.


That and going to the playoffs a lot. Oh, and that AFCCG. Oh yeah, and winning more than all but 4 franchises in his time here. Then, of course, there is the doing better post HOF QB than most franchises through history...

If you throw all that out, he was only here because of those SBs.

BroncoInferno
01-04-2011, 02:58 PM
I think Shanahan has a problem with personnel and needs to have the right personnel guys around him. He was drafting a LOT better in his last few years here after he found the Goodmans and gave them more power.

That being said. He still improved the team in his first year there. It is dumb to question him while he improves the team. If the team doesn't continue to improve next season, then would be the time to question him. How can you claim he is doing a bad job as they are getting better? It doesn't make sense at all.

Judging improvement goes beyond wins and losses. That's part of the equation, certainly, but I'd hardly call going from 4 to 6 wins proof that the team is going in the right direction. They lost 5 of their last 6 games, so it seems to me like it's tough to argue that they improved all that much. Also, it's hard to look at the QB situation and feel confident about the teams future prospects. Also, the defense got worse this season, allowing 2 more points per game. He only has one pick in the first 4 rounds of the draft to address their myriad of problems. He almost has to use the 1st rounder on a QB of the future. He does that, then there isn't much he can do to improve the defense, or the talent surrounding that QB. If he doesn't address QB in the draft, he probably has to go with Grossman as his QB, because he doesn't have the draft picks needed to trade for someone like Kolb. He's going to have to come up with a helluva personnel plan to have much chance of improving the team for next season. Judging by his recent history as a personnel man, it's hard to have confidence that he'll be able to cook up anything substantial.

Mile High Shack
01-04-2011, 03:02 PM
That and going to the playoffs a lot. Oh, and that AFCCG. Oh yeah, and winning more than all but 4 franchises in his time here. Then, of course, there is the doing better post HOF QB than most franchises through history...

If you throw all that out, he was only here because of those SBs.

he won one playoff game w/o Elway

Taco John
01-04-2011, 03:03 PM
Bruce Allen is the personnel man in Washington. According to what I've heard, he and Snyder forced McNabb's extension on Shanahan despite Shanahan's protests.

HAT
01-04-2011, 03:04 PM
Judging improvement goes beyond wins and losses. That's part of the equation, certainly, but I'd hardly call going from 4 to 6 wins proof that the team is going in the right direction. They lost 5 of their last 6 games, so it seems to me like it's tough to argue that they improved all that much. Also, it's hard to look at the QB situation and feel confident about the teams future prospects. Also, the defense got worse this season, allowing 2 more points per game. He only has one pick in the first 4 rounds of the draft to address their myriad of problems. He almost has to use the 1st rounder on a QB of the future. He does that, then there isn't much he can do to improve the defense, or the talent surrounding that QB. If he doesn't address QB in the draft, he probably has to go with Grossman as his QB, because he doesn't have the draft picks needed to trade for someone like Kolb. He's going to have to come up with a helluva personnel plan to have much chance of improving the team for next season. Judging by his recent history as a personnel man, it's hard to have confidence that he'll be able to cook up anything substantial.

So you're saying a Shanny coached team got worse in the 2nd half of the season? Who knew ???

I almost wish they had the ammo to trade for Kolb. Can you imagine the lulz of that? (And, yes, I realize you said 'a guy like Kolb')

bpc
01-04-2011, 03:08 PM
Any surprise resident shanahan hater popps showed up to post this? He's been in hiding ever since his idol mcd got thrown the **** out of town and only comes back to smear former broncos. A cowardly act by a desperate man.

BroncoInferno
01-04-2011, 03:23 PM
Bruce Allen is the personnel man in Washington. According to what I've heard, he and Snyder forced McNabb's extension on Shanahan despite Shanahan's protests.

The extension they gave him is pretty much worthless:

http://dc.sbnation.com/2010/7/1/1548087/donovan-mcnabb-redskins-contract-extension-nfl

The Redskins have reportedly agreed on a five-year, $78 million extension with Donovan McNabb, with $40 million guaranteed.However, the Redskins would only owe $3.75 million if they cut him after the season.

It was Shanny's call to trade 2nd and 3rd picks for a guy who is clearly washed up.

strafen
01-04-2011, 03:26 PM
Any surprise resident shanahan hater popps showed up to post this? He's been in hiding ever since his idol mcd got thrown the **** out of town and only comes back to smear former broncos. A cowardly act by a desperate man.That's poops for ya'.
He'd figures by pulling this stunt we're going to forget what McD left us with.
Popps has got nothing to say lately. That's what hppens when homerism gets in the way of reason.

Popps
01-04-2011, 03:35 PM
he won one playoff game w/o Elway

Yep. Will always be a big fan of Shanny's, but he just lost his way after those initial great years. I'm just glad we've moved on. Hopefully we'll give our next coach a chance to really gut this team and finish a rebuilding process.

TheProfessor
01-04-2011, 03:41 PM
Yep. Will always be a big fan of Shanny's, but he just lost his way after those initial great years. I'm just glad we've moved on. Hopefully we'll give our next coach a chance to really gut this team and finish a rebuilding process.

McDaniels already gutted this team...It was the building process he wasn't so good at.

Popps
01-04-2011, 03:46 PM
McDaniels already gutted this team...It was the building process he wasn't so good at.

As long as our next coach gets a real chance to rebuild this team, I'll be happy. We just can't get into the Raiders musical coaches nonsense.

TheReverend
01-04-2011, 03:50 PM
So you're saying a Shanny coached team got worse in the 2nd half of the season? Who knew ???

I almost wish they had the ammo to trade for Kolb. Can you imagine the lulz of that? (And, yes, I realize you said 'a guy like Kolb')

Trying to get an early jump on your complete wrongness quota for 2011?

Post superbowls: As far as those "second half collapses go", Denver is 44-33 in the first half 99-08, and 46-35 in the second half 99-08.

Record Offense Defense
W L Total PPG PYPG RYPG TO PPG PYG RYG TO
Q1: 25 14 39 23.21 213.67 136.72 1.59 19.67 200.15 104.49 1.64
Q2: 19 19 38 21.87 236.87 131.97 1.79 21.61 201.08 113.00 1.39
Q3: 20 14 34 24.15 220.88 121.09 1.53 21.71 231.79 85.91 2.47
Q4: 26 21 47 23.55 221.32 151.17 1.68 21.77 199.17 122.04 1.55
Total: 90 68 158 23.19 223.08 136.51 1.65 21.20 206.89 107.76 1.73

baja
01-04-2011, 03:55 PM
McDaniels already gutted this team...It was the building process he wasn't so good at.

I think he has left us with some pretty good players.

HAT
01-04-2011, 03:55 PM
Context, Rev, context. We are talking about the current Shanahan. Not the good one from the 90's.

And as for my 'complete wrongness'.....You really haven't figured it out in the past 2 years? Really??

frerottenextelway
01-04-2011, 03:56 PM
Why does this team need to be gutted?

baja
01-04-2011, 04:02 PM
Context, Rev, context. We are talking about the current Shanahan. Not the good one from the 90's.

And as for my 'complete wrongness'.....You really haven't figured it out in the past 2 years? Really??


I bet his MOS was sniper seeing as how he likes to hide in the bushes and take pot shots at people at large.

Rev. tries to say something really clever and cutting thinking he is showing everyone how clever he is. I bet he steams up that mirror he admires himself in to the point of rusting the frame.

TheProfessor
01-04-2011, 04:05 PM
I think he has left us with some pretty good players.


Who?

Defense is literally devoid of talent... with the exception of DJ and Champ (both from the previous FO)

As for the offense our best players are still the Shanny hold overs (Clady & Harris & Kuper) as for the rest of the "talent"

Cutler >Tebow
Marshall > DT
Hillis > Knowshon
Weigmann > Walton

The only real find that was strictly McDaniels was Lloyd and though I am extremely impressed with his season, lets see him do it for the 2nd time in his career.

McKidd and the job he did will go down in history as being one of the quickest most inefficient "rebuilds" ever.

Agamemnon
01-04-2011, 04:15 PM
I saw all this coming when Washington hired the guy. I think he's illustrated beyond a shadow of a doubt why it was time for him to go. Unfortunately we did a terrible job of replacing him.

Agamemnon
01-04-2011, 04:17 PM
Who?

Defense is literally devoid of talent... with the exception of DJ and Champ (both from the previous FO)

As for the offense our best players are still the Shanny hold overs (Clady & Harris & Kuper) as for the rest of the "talent"

Cutler >Tebow
Marshall > DT
Hillis > Knowshon
Weigmann > Walton

The only real find that was strictly McDaniels was Lloyd and though I am extremely impressed with his season, lets see him do it for the 2nd time in his career.

McKidd and the job he did will go down in history as being one of the quickest most inefficient "rebuilds" ever.

You're comparing three rookies to established players. Not sure how you think that makes any sense. And Tebow as a rookie >>>> Cutler as a rookie...

Tombstone RJ
01-04-2011, 04:20 PM
Who?

Defense is literally devoid of talent... with the exception of DJ and Champ (both from the previous FO)

As for the offense our best players are still the Shanny hold overs (Clady & Harris & Kuper) as for the rest of the "talent"

Cutler >Tebow
Marshall > DT
Hillis > Knowshon
Weigmann > Walton

The only real find that was strictly McDaniels was Lloyd and though I am extremely impressed with his season, lets see him do it for the 2nd time in his career.

McKidd and the job he did will go down in history as being one of the quickest most inefficient "rebuilds" ever.

Orton + Tebow + Quinn = to Cutler and maybe > than Cutler
DT + Decker > Marshall (and safer and way less $)
Moreno > Hillis (behind this oline)
Weigmann > Walton (but Walton is a rookie)

It's all in how you look at things. I'm of the opinion this team has about as much talent, give or take, as the team McD inherited. It's all just a matter of personal opinion...

TheProfessor
01-04-2011, 04:22 PM
You're comparing three rookies to established players. Not sure how you think that makes any sense. And Tebow as a rookie >>>> Cutler as a rookie...

If I we were playing in the NCAA I would agree with you. Unfortunately were not.

and before the rest of the torches come out, I like Tebow, hell cheering for the kid is like watching a rocky movie play out in front of me. But he is no where near the talent level of JC. Not for the pro-game at least.

You don't build a team by shipping out all the pro-bowl types and replace them with rookies who have "upside".

Like it or not, McKidd and the job he did are certifiable disasters.

Popps
01-04-2011, 04:25 PM
It's all in how you look at things. I'm of the opinion this team has about as much talent, give or take, as the team McD inherited. It's all just a matter of personal opinion...

Yup.

Which is why we have to commit to our next coach for more than a season and change. I hope Bowlen takes his time with this decision, and we don't start dumping coaches every time things look rough.

Popps
01-04-2011, 04:29 PM
Who?

Defense is literally devoid of talent... with the exception of DJ and Champ (both from the previous FO)

As for the offense our best players are still the Shanny hold overs (Clady & Harris & Kuper) as for the rest of the "talent"

Cutler >Tebow
Marshall > DT
Hillis > Knowshon
Weigmann > Walton

The only real find that was strictly McDaniels was Lloyd and though I am extremely impressed with his season, lets see him do it for the 2nd time in his career.

McKidd and the job he did will go down in history as being one of the quickest most inefficient "rebuilds" ever.


Cutler >Tebow/Orton - Jury is out, at best. Cuter has been between bad and average in two seasons as a Bear.

Marshall < Lloyd - Why wouldn't you make the correct comparison here?

Hillis > Knowshon - Jury is out, long-term. Hillis had a nice start as a starter in Cleveland, then finished 11th in rushing. Given proper blocking, Moreno is just as effective. But, I'll agree here because Moreno can't stay healthy.... but can Hillis? Thus far, neither have proven capable.


Weigmann > Walton - Walton is a rookie and may well be a long-term future starter. We had to make moves with these aging linemen at some point. Weigmann squeezed out one more season than most thought he would. But, that's hardly a ****-up, so much as it is moving towards the future.

TheProfessor
01-04-2011, 04:43 PM
Cutler >Tebow/Orton - Jury is out, at best. Cuter has been between bad and average in two seasons as a Bear.

I understand why, as a bronco fan, you would want to believe this. Unfortunately you and some others here are in the minority with that opinion. I doubt you could get even 1 general manager that would take Orton/tebow over Cutler

Marshall < Lloyd - Why wouldn't you make the correct comparison here?

Because Lloyd was already here when Brandon was here. DT (IMO) was picked to replace the size/speed combo that we lost when BM was traded.

Hillis > Knowshon - Jury is out, long-term. Hillis had a nice start as a starter in Cleveland, then finished 11th in rushing. Given proper blocking, Moreno is just as effective. But, I'll agree here because Moreno can't stay healthy.... but can Hillis? Thus far, neither have proven capable.

Again, I can see how a bronco fan would like to pretend this is the case. But Knowshon has proven absolutely nothing in his 2 years here. Hillis on the other hand was our leading rusher 1 year and made a strong case for the pro-bowl this season.

Weigmann > Walton - Walton is a rookie and may well be a long-term future starter. We had to make moves with these aging linemen at some point. Weigmann squeezed out one more season than most thought he would. But, that's hardly a ****-up, so much as it is moving towards the future.

Walton is crap... can he improve? Maybe, but as of today the kid is complete crap.

Too many people here are trying to convince themselves that what they saw this season isn't real. Josh McDaniels was an absolute disaster, why are people spending their time pretending he wasn't?

chawknz
01-04-2011, 04:47 PM
I like Stink a lot, despite him having to remind me that he has had 20+ surgeries every day. I always enjoy hearing his insight and what he had to say about Shanahan was interesting to read. Thanks!

I can't help but giggle now that I am reminded of some of the draft picks.

Agamemnon
01-04-2011, 04:48 PM
If I we were playing in the NCAA I would agree with you. Unfortunately were not.

and before the rest of the torches come out, I like Tebow, hell cheering for the kid is like watching a rocky movie play out in front of me. But he is no where near the talent level of JC. Not for the pro-game at least.

You don't build a team by shipping out all the pro-bowl types and replace them with rookies who have "upside".

Like it or not, McKidd and the job he did are certifiable disasters.

Stop talking about "talent", and register what I said. Tebow as a rookie >>>> Cutler as a rookie. I'd be willing to bet that pattern holds true for their entire careers.

TheProfessor
01-04-2011, 04:57 PM
Stop talking about "talent", and register what I said. Tebow as a rookie >>>> Cutler as a rookie. I'd be willing to bet that pattern holds true for their entire careers.

Again, you couldn't find 1 GM (other than the ex GM/coach that we just fired) that would take Tebow AND orton over Cutler.


As for you who was a better rookie crap... I ignored it because it isn't even close to being true.

Tebow - 41/82 50.0% 5 td 3 picks 82.1
Cutler - 81/137 59.1% 9td 5 picks 88.5

Agamemnon
01-04-2011, 05:13 PM
Did you watch Cutler as a rookie, or are you just going to put up some stats? I watched both, and Tebow has been, by far, better as a rookie. If you think stats prove otherwise you have no clue what you are talking about. Cutler took over a pretty talented team and couldn't win. Tebow took over one of the worst teams in the league and made them competitive.

As far as a GM taking Cutler over Tebow and Orton, let's just get Orton out of the discussion. He has very little value at this point. Now with Cutler vs. Tebow yes GMs are going to go with the 5 year, slightly above average starter over the unproven rookie. GMs don't keep their jobs by gambling like that. All the same, Tebow is going to be better than Cutler, and it's not going to even be close. As others have said, Tebow is a winner. Cutler? That definitely isn't the word I would use to describe him.

jhns
01-04-2011, 05:30 PM
Judging improvement goes beyond wins and losses. That's part of the equation, certainly, but I'd hardly call going from 4 to 6 wins proof that the team is going in the right direction. They lost 5 of their last 6 games, so it seems to me like it's tough to argue that they improved all that much. Also, it's hard to look at the QB situation and feel confident about the teams future prospects. Also, the defense got worse this season, allowing 2 more points per game. He only has one pick in the first 4 rounds of the draft to address their myriad of problems. He almost has to use the 1st rounder on a QB of the future. He does that, then there isn't much he can do to improve the defense, or the talent surrounding that QB. If he doesn't address QB in the draft, he probably has to go with Grossman as his QB, because he doesn't have the draft picks needed to trade for someone like Kolb. He's going to have to come up with a helluva personnel plan to have much chance of improving the team for next season. Judging by his recent history as a personnel man, it's hard to have confidence that he'll be able to cook up anything substantial.

No, wins are all that matters. If his team is winning more than before, they are improving. When that stops, they have stopped improving.

What is funny to me is the people who loved McDaniels as he never improved this team seem to be some of the more vocal about Shanahan failing as he improves that team. I'm not sure a lot of you understand what the coach and GMs job is....

TheProfessor
01-04-2011, 05:39 PM
Did you watch Cutler as a rookie, or are you just going to put up some stats? I watched both, and Tebow has been, by far, better as a rookie. If you think stats prove otherwise you have no clue what you are talking about. Cutler took over a pretty talented team and couldn't win. Tebow took over one of the worst teams in the league and made them competitive.

As far as a GM taking Cutler over Tebow and Orton, let's just get Orton out of the discussion. He has very little value at this point. Now with Cutler vs. Tebow yes GMs are going to go with the 5 year, slightly above average starter over the unproven rookie. GMs don't keep their jobs by gambling like that. All the same, Tebow is going to be better than Cutler, and it's not going to even be close. As others have said, Tebow is a winner. Cutler? That definitely isn't the word I would use to describe him.

Of course Orton has very little value... Fact is, he was another of Josh McDaniels bad decisions. So I'm more than comfortable "moving on"

As for your crap about tebow out playing cutler... what a laugh. I watched everyone of cutlers games. Arm strength, acuracy, his talent fits the pro-game, hell the only area Tebow beats cutler is in leadership with a tie in the mobility area. We will have to see if tebows off the charts leadership is enough to supplant his short commings. But sorry, tebows 3 games were not better than jays. Not by a long shot. Until Tebow can get his completion percentage above 60 he will never be considered a solid starter, let alone a franchise type.

But we will see how he does, lets just hope jay doesn't find himself in the superbowl this year.

gunns
01-04-2011, 05:50 PM
If Schlereth made statements publicly questioning Shanahan's decisions at the time they were made, then I must have missed them. I'm not trying to defend Shanahan, because obviously looking back, they were bad moves. But that's just it, hindsight is always 20/20, so Schlereth is no better than any of us bellyaching after the fact. And why didn't we pick Ed Reed? Blah, blah, blah.

Schlereth is in a job where he has to be somewhat objective, although he will say he doesn't think something will work. This was an interview where he can say what he thinks and I still think he was restrained. This has nothing to do with hindsight, a lot of us were thinking and saying the same thing when he did some of these things. Shanahan has been in panic mode since May 2, 1999. He's so bound and determined to show he can do it without Elway he's often made himself look like the fool (see Slowik). Many here often say "they know better and more than we do" and that's often not true. That's how stupid some of his decisions were.

Popps
01-04-2011, 05:51 PM
But we will see how he does, lets just hope jay doesn't find himself in the superbowl this year.

Well, rest assured he'll be doing everything in his power to make sure that doesn't happen.

TheProfessor
01-04-2011, 05:59 PM
Well, rest assured he'll be doing everything in his power to make sure that doesn't happen.

What ever helps you sleep at night.

BroncoInferno
01-04-2011, 06:38 PM
No, wins are all that matters. If his team is winning more than before, they are improving. When that stops, they have stopped improving.

What is funny to me is the people who loved McDaniels as he never improved this team seem to be some of the more vocal about Shanahan failing as he improves that team. I'm not sure a lot of you understand what the coach and GMs job is....

The Skins went from 4 wins to 6 wins (a modest jump, to say the least), they have an unsettled QB situation, they only have 1 pick in the first 4 rounds of the April draft, and they lost 5 of their final 6 games. If that represents to you a team on the upswing, you are welcome to think so. Here in reality, Shanny the coach is once again being undermined by Shanny the GM.

TheProfessor
01-04-2011, 06:40 PM
The Skins went from 4 wins to 6 wins (a modest jump, to say the least), they have an unsettled QB situation, they only have 1 pick in the first 4 rounds of the April draft, and they lost 5 of their final 6 games. If that represents to you a team on the upswing, you are welcome to think so. Here in reality, Shanny the coach is once again being undermined by Shanny the GM.

Not that I want to get in the middle of your fight, but since when is a 50% increase modest?

BroncoInferno
01-04-2011, 06:44 PM
Not that I want to get in the middle of your fight, but since when is a 50% increase is modest?

That's a nice way to spin it. Going from 1 to 2 wins would be a 100% increase. Going from 4 wins to 6 wins is a modest jump by any reasonable standard.

broncosteven
01-04-2011, 06:50 PM
You say tomato.

Just haven't heard many ex-players of a coach be so explicit about his opinions, particularly a guy who he won a SB with.

I remember a couple years back when Stink had been on radio about a year or so going off about Shanny not calling him since he retired.

I thought it was a strange think to hear a pro athelete attack a HC for considering he never said in the same rant if Joe Gibbs ever called him or not.

I think Stink likes to take a shot when he can at Shanny so he doesnt appear to be a big Bronco Homer but I have also heard him thank Shanny for the SB's and sticking by him with all the surgerys(sp?).

TheProfessor
01-04-2011, 06:51 PM
That's a nice way to spin it. Going from 1 to 2 wins would be a 100% increase. Going from 4 wins to 6 wins is a modest jump by any reasonable standard.

Thats not spin... thats math.

he improved the teams wins by 50%. In the world I live in, improvements like that are considered significant, not modest.

BroncoInferno
01-04-2011, 07:02 PM
Thats not spin... thats math.

he improved the teams wins by 50%. In the world I live in, improvements like that are considered significant, not modest.

You're an idiot. By your standard, a coach improving from 1 win to 2 wins has made an absolutely massive improvement....after all, he increased the total number of wins by 100%! I doubt there are many folks associated with the Redskins who would be swayed by your ridiculous "50% improvement" argument.

TheProfessor
01-04-2011, 07:03 PM
You're any idiot. By your standard, a coach improving from 1 win to 2 wins has made an absolutely massive improvement....after all, he increased the total number of wins by 100%! I doubt there are many folks associated with the Redskins who would be swayed by your ridiculous "50% improvement) argument.

Hilarious! you people are too much

BroncoInferno
01-04-2011, 07:09 PM
Hilarious! you people are too much

Yeah, so are you with your absolutely stupid argument that going from 4 wins to 6 wins represents a "significant" improvement because it's a 50% increase wins from the previous season. Of course, when you don't win many games, any number you go over that total the next season will represent a high percentage (1 win to 2 wins would a 100% increase, as I pointed out, and only a fool would call that a significant improvement). Since we won 4 games this season, I guess you will be absolutely thrilled with our next coach if he wins 6 games next season given the massive percentage increase?

TheProfessor
01-04-2011, 07:15 PM
Yeah, so are you with your absolutely stupid argument that going from 4 wins to 6 wins represents a "significant" improvement because it's a 50% increase wins from the previous season. Of course, when you don't win many games, any number you go over that total the next season will represent a high percentage (1 win to 2 wins would a 100% increase, as I pointed out, and only a fool would call that a significant improvement). Since we won 4 games this season, I guess you will be absolutely thrilled with our next coach if he wins 6 games next season given the massive percentage increase?

I think we will be lucky to win 6 games next year... so yes that 50% increase wouild be above my expectations. You might need to prepare yourself, this team is absolutely terrible.


Wait sorry... let me do this your way.


"you're any idiot"...I think we will be lucky to win 6 games next year... so yes that 50% increase wouild be above my expectations. You might need to prepare yourself, this team is absolutely terrible.


Hmmm, come to think of it maybe my point was made better without the name calling.

broncocalijohn
01-04-2011, 07:50 PM
Right, but you and I are dudes on a message board. Just somewhat surprising to hear this line of thought from an ex-player, even if it is his job to run his mouth.

I think you just answered your own question. They asked him because he is highly regarded on ESPN doing football, played under Shanny and played for the Redskins. Honesty is best heard instead of sugar coating his problems. Tell it like it is.

baja
01-04-2011, 08:00 PM
Thats not spin... thats math.

he improved the teams wins by 50%. In the world I live in, improvements like that are considered significant, not modest.

Dude do you even believe your own bull shiit?

An increase in football wins from 2 to 4 is a modest increase. At a 2 game a season increase 10 wins (usually a # needed to reach the playoffs) is three more seasons away. Any coach that does not reach the playoffs in 4 seasons is likely out of a job.

TheProfessor
01-04-2011, 08:07 PM
Dude do you even believe your own bull shiit?

An increase in football wins from 2 to 4 is a modest increase. At a 2 game a season increase 10 wins (usually a # needed to reach the playoffs) is three more seasons away. Any coach that does not reach the playoffs in 4 seasons is likely out of a job.

Yes I do believe that a 50% improvement is significant... and just to help your math out if he improves by 50% next year he will have 9 wins.

this year 9 wins would put them 1 game out of the playoffs in their division. Who knows what 9 wins would get next year.

So yes I do believe my bull shiit, and now that the math has been done for you, do you?

baja
01-04-2011, 08:15 PM
Yes I do believe that a 50% improvement is significant... and just to help you math out if he improves by 50% next year he will have 9 wins.

this year 9 wins would put them 1 game out of the playoffs in their division. Who knows what 9 wins would get next year.

So yes I do believe my bull shiit, and now that you have the math has been done for you, do you?

I knew you would go this route. Tell me how you logically ably the abstract % of increase to anything real for the Washington Redskins football team?

Do you think it is the norm for a team to experience the exponential (percentage) increase year after year, is this your argument?

A two game increase when it's from 2 to 4 is pedestrian professor by anyone's math.

TheProfessor
01-04-2011, 08:31 PM
I knew you would go this route. Tell me how you logically ably the abstract % of increase to anything real for the Washington Redskins football team?

Do you think it is the norm for a team to experience the exponential (percentage) increase year after year, is this your argument?

A two game increase when it's from 2 to 4 is pedestrian professor by anyone's math.

Oh i see whats going on here, I thought you were just crying over the mcdaniels firing.

To be complete you need reasurance that shanahan is a bust now that he is no longer a bronco. Trust me I'm sure that no one including shanahan is happy with the performance in DC this year, but the fact that Washington has been an absolute debacle for more than a decade seems lost on you. Sorry, but a team that is as much of a mess as washington is going to take more than one year to rebuild. Shanny did a good job of increasing their win total by 50% while rebuilding. Something McWaste failed at miserably

Lets hope our next coach is able to do that, 'cause we are a much bigger mess than most people around here are willing to admit to... and as much as this will hurt you to hear, McWaste might have done a decades worth of damage in less than 2 years.

~Crash~
01-04-2011, 08:43 PM
that would be sweet. Throw in Haynesworth too.

then add orton..

Taco John
01-04-2011, 08:48 PM
The Skins went from 4 wins to 6 wins (a modest jump, to say the least), they have an unsettled QB situation, they only have 1 pick in the first 4 rounds of the April draft, and they lost 5 of their final 6 games. If that represents to you a team on the upswing, you are welcome to think so. Here in reality, Shanny the coach is once again being undermined by Shanny the GM.

Bruce Allen is the GM of the Washington Redskins, and is in effect Dan Snyder's puppet.

baja
01-04-2011, 08:49 PM
Oh i see whats going on here, I thought you were just crying over the mcdaniels firing.

To be complete you need reasurance that shanahan is a bust now that he is no longer a bronco. Trust me I'm sure that no one including shanahan is happy with the performance in DC this year, but the fact that Washington has been an absolute debacle for more than a decade seems lost on you. Sorry, but a team that is as much of a mess as washington is going to take more than one year to rebuild. Shanny did a good job of increasing their win total by 50% while rebuilding. Something McWaste failed at miserably

Lets hope our next coach is able to do that, 'cause we are a much bigger mess than most people around here are willing to admit to... and as much as this will hurt you to hear, McWaste might have done a decades worth of damage in less than 2 years.

Dude you can make this about me and my disappointments if you like but the fact is going from 2 wins to 4 wins is not reason to consider Shanny coach of the year, it's not even a good job. Look at Atlanta's turn around (or even Detroit) that's what a good job looks like.

Taco John
01-04-2011, 08:52 PM
I remember a couple years back when Stink had been on radio about a year or so going off about Shanny not calling him since he retired.

I thought it was a strange think to hear a pro athelete attack a HC for considering he never said in the same rant if Joe Gibbs ever called him or not.

I think Stink likes to take a shot when he can at Shanny so he doesnt appear to be a big Bronco Homer but I have also heard him thank Shanny for the SB's and sticking by him with all the surgerys(sp?).

Schlereth has discussed his problems with the way contract negotiations went with Shanahan several times on the air. He says it left a bad taste in his mouth that Shanahan the coach would ask him to give his all on the field, while Shanahan the GM would pinch every penny he could. He's commented that it creates a disconnect that leaves players with mixed feelings about Shanahan.

TheProfessor
01-04-2011, 08:57 PM
Dude you can make this about me and my disappointments if you like but the fact is going from 2 wins to 4 wins is not reason to consider Shanny coach of the year, it's not even a good job. Look at Atlanta's turn around (or even Detroit) that's what a good job looks like.

Who called him "Coach of the Year"?... or is that just the natural hyperbole that comes out when you realize you are wrong?

Here maybe this will help...

Shanahan - Increasing the number of wins by 50% while rebuilding the team in his image is good.

McDaniels - Decreasing the number of wins by 50% while rebuilding the team in his image is bad.

baja
01-04-2011, 09:02 PM
Who called him "Coach of the Year"?... or is that just the natural hyperbole that comes out when you realize you are wrong?

Here maybe this will help...

Shanahan - Increasing the number of wins by 50% while rebuilding the team in his image is good.

McDaniels - Decreasing the number of wins by 50% while rebuilding the team in his image is bad.


McDaniels is another story we are talking about Shanny and his 2 win improvement. I can see joking with you is not going to fly (you will just call it hyperbole) so you enjoy your warm fuzzy 50% increase and I'll hold my opinion that going from 2 wins to 4 wins is not much f an accomplishment.

Think the average Skins fan agrees with you?

baja
01-04-2011, 09:03 PM
Schlereth has discussed his problems with the way contract negotiations went with Shanahan several times on the air. He says it left a bad taste in his mouth that Shanahan the coach would ask him to give his all on the field, while Shanahan the GM would pinch every penny he could. He's commented that it creates a disconnect that leaves players with mixed feelings about Shanahan.

That's a great point. I never looked at it that way. It's hard to be both good cop and bad cop.

TheProfessor
01-04-2011, 09:17 PM
McDaniels is another story we are talking about Shanny and his 2 win improvement. I can see joking with you is not going to fly (you will just call it hyperbole) so you enjoy your warm fuzzy 50% increase and I'll hold my opinion that going from 2 wins to 4 wins is not much f an accomplishment.

Think the average Skins fan agrees with you?

Well, he is still employed so snyder doesn't seem to think he is quite the wash-out that you do.

Personally, I think the average skin fan is tired of the last 10+ years of futility. But as I already said, I doubt anyone is happy right now in DC. If he increases his win total by 2 or 3 next year, then people will be "happier". If on the other hand he goes in the tank like our coach did... no, they will not be happy and shanny will probably be unemployed again.

But none of this changes the fact that he increased their win total from 4-6 while rebuilding the team.

Now on the other hand, I think he butchered the already significant problem that was Albert Haynesworth, and he didn't do himself any favors with the way McNabb was handled... but otherwise he did his job, something I wish his replacement here could have done.

Taco John
01-04-2011, 09:32 PM
In 1999, we went 6-10 under Shanahan, looking pretty hopeless. In 2000, we went 11-5.

baja
01-04-2011, 09:41 PM
In 1999, we went 6-10 under Shanahan, looking pretty hopeless. In 2000, we went 11-5.

See Professor that's improvement worth noting.

TheProfessor
01-04-2011, 09:44 PM
See Professor that's improvement worth noting.

Trust me, I haven't forgotten his resume. The man can flat out coach, but he has his work cut out for him. We will see if he can do it again somewhere else, but so far so good.

baja
01-04-2011, 09:45 PM
Well, he is still employed so snyder doesn't seem to think he is quite the wash-out that you do.

Personally, I think the average skin fan is tired of the last 10+ years of futility. But as I already said, I doubt anyone is happy right now in DC. If he increases his win total by 2 or 3 next year, then people will be "happier". If on the other hand he goes in the tank like our coach did... no, they will not be happy and shanny will probably be unemployed again.

But none of this changes the fact that he increased their win total from 4-6 while rebuilding the team.

Now on the other hand, I think he butchered the already significant problem that was Albert Haynesworth, and he didn't do himself any favors with the way McNabb was handled... but otherwise he did his job, something I wish his replacement here could have done.

I never said he was a wash out, just pointing out claiming a 50% improvement is some kind of big deal (under the circumstances, 2 to 4 wins) is misleading.

baja
01-04-2011, 09:48 PM
Trust me, I haven't forgotten his resume. The man can flat out coach, but he has his work cut out for him. We will see if he can do it again somewhere else, but so far so good.

I wish Mike well, hell he is a royal beatoch to fish with when he loses. ;D

Agamemnon
01-04-2011, 10:13 PM
Of course Orton has very little value... Fact is, he was another of Josh McDaniels bad decisions. So I'm more than comfortable "moving on"

As for your crap about tebow out playing cutler... what a laugh. I watched everyone of cutlers games. Arm strength, acuracy, his talent fits the pro-game, hell the only area Tebow beats cutler is in leadership with a tie in the mobility area. We will have to see if tebows off the charts leadership is enough to supplant his short commings. But sorry, tebows 3 games were not better than jays. Not by a long shot. Until Tebow can get his completion percentage above 60 he will never be considered a solid starter, let alone a franchise type.

But we will see how he does, lets just hope jay doesn't find himself in the superbowl this year.

A tie in the mobility area? Hilarious!

I stopped reading after that.

Taco John
01-04-2011, 10:16 PM
Josh McDaniels won three games this year and you were optimistic after losses. Now you're in here busting Shanahan's balls over 6 wins in his first year on a franchise that had 4 wins total last season?

There's no doubt, it's ugly over in Redskins land. They've been pretty terrible since 1992 when Joe Gibbs retired. Shanahan isn't going to come in and reverse two decades of futility overnight.

Agamemnon
01-04-2011, 10:21 PM
Josh McDaniels won three games this year and you were optimistic after losses. Now you're in here busting Shanahan's balls over 6 wins in his first year on a franchise that had 4 wins total last season?

There's no doubt, it's ugly over in Redskins land. They've been pretty terrible since 1992 when Joe Gibbs retired. Shanahan isn't going to come in and reverse two decades of futility overnight.

The problem is that he isn't reversing it at all. They won 2 more games, but does that really mean they are better? Right now they are worse off at QB, and Shanahan has completely wrecked what was a pretty decent defense before he arrived. Two more wins doesn't mean much. A team in more disarray than when he arrived does.

baja
01-04-2011, 10:22 PM
Josh McDaniels won three games this year and you were optimistic after losses. Now you're in here busting Shanahan's balls over 6 wins in his first year on a franchise that had 4 wins total last season?

There's no doubt, it's ugly over in Redskins land. They've been pretty terrible since 1992 when Joe Gibbs retired. Shanahan isn't going to come in and reverse two decades of futility overnight.

I hope you are not referring to me because I am certainly not busting Shanahan's anything. I wish him well. I do not think he will ever regain his former glory.

I also except Josh was not going to succeed here the way the FO was structured.

Taco John
01-04-2011, 10:52 PM
I hope you are not referring to me because I am certainly not busting Shanahan's anything. I wish him well. I do not think he will ever regain his former glory.

I also except Josh was not going to succeed here the way the FO was structured.


Not to mention the way his offense was structured.

Natedogg
01-04-2011, 10:53 PM
Sounds like Stink reads the Mane... lol.

wabbit??

baja
01-04-2011, 11:00 PM
Not to mention the way his offense was structured.

Do you think he left the team with some good players to build on?

Taco John
01-04-2011, 11:05 PM
Do you think he left the team with some good players to build on?


Sure. I am a big fan of Lloyd and Tebow, both McDaniels guys. I was also a fan of some of the players Wade Phillips left behind, but I didn't want him as a head coach anymore either.

HAT
01-04-2011, 11:36 PM
Do people here really think that Mike Shanahan will ever again make the playoffs as a head coach? Wow. The NFL passed him by years ago.

I like the guy though so hopefully he can ride some coat-tails as an OC later in life....Wouldn't mind it actually if he and Elway eventually got over their differences.

jhns
01-05-2011, 06:09 AM
The Skins went from 4 wins to 6 wins (a modest jump, to say the least), they have an unsettled QB situation, they only have 1 pick in the first 4 rounds of the April draft, and they lost 5 of their final 6 games. If that represents to you a team on the upswing, you are welcome to think so. Here in reality, Shanny the coach is once again being undermined by Shanny the GM.

LOL Wtf are you guys talking about? It is his first season with a top 5 pick team. He improved them. Of course he didn't take them to the playoffs. Do you really think anyone expected much more? Hell, staying the same while changing both systems would have been alright. He made them better while doing it in a single offseason.

Funny that most of the haters were also talking Josh up as he never once improved the team....

jhns
01-05-2011, 06:43 AM
I was just thinking about this and this thread seems to indicate our next head coach is screwed. All of you are going to claim he is a failure for not winning 8-12 games with this four win team. There is going to be a lot of crying on this message board next season as I expect the rebuild to take more than one offseason.

colonelbeef
01-05-2011, 07:29 AM
That's ripping?

Seriously.

Poops grasping at straws, yet again. Has he been right about anything this decade?

for every bad move that was made (and everyone makes bad moves, see Belichick drafting Maroney in the 1st round, total bust) there was an amazing great move made- the Champ Bailey trade, drafting Marshall, Dumervil, Hillis, Royal, Clady, on and on.

Hogan11
01-05-2011, 07:30 AM
Josh McDaniels won three games this year and you were optimistic after losses. Now you're in here busting Shanahan's balls over 6 wins in his first year on a franchise that had 4 wins total last season?

There's no doubt, it's ugly over in Redskins land. They've been pretty terrible since 1992 when Joe Gibbs retired. Shanahan isn't going to come in and reverse two decades of futility overnight.

or at all. Face it, the autocrat is about as done as when Gibbs returned after years of sucking exhaust fumes in NASCAR land.

The skins will never be right until Snyder sells the team....and I'm perfectly happy with that.

colonelbeef
01-05-2011, 07:31 AM
Do people here really think that Mike Shanahan will ever again make the playoffs as a head coach? Wow. The NFL passed him by years ago.

I like the guy though so hopefully he can ride some coat-tails as an OC later in life....Wouldn't mind it actually if he and Elway eventually got over their differences.

absolutely he will.

Remember, you thought Josh McDaniels was doing a good job in Denver.

colonelbeef
01-05-2011, 07:31 AM
Josh McDaniels won three games this year and you were optimistic after losses. Now you're in here busting Shanahan's balls over 6 wins in his first year on a franchise that had 4 wins total last season?

There's no doubt, it's ugly over in Redskins land. They've been pretty terrible since 1992 when Joe Gibbs retired. Shanahan isn't going to come in and reverse two decades of futility overnight.

exactly. the hypocrisy is embarrassing around here

CEH
01-05-2011, 07:45 AM
Who cares about Shanahan. We are now two coaches removed from Mike
Wonder why ppl want to keep bringing up the past?

Should I create a thread where Stink's partner in crime calls McD a bully and was the one who leaked a bogus report about Cutler not calling Bowlen back.


There are tons of stories that go on everyday

Worst case we discuss the errors made by Ellis and Bowlen when they have Spags top of thier list and do a dinner date for the interview instead of an actual formal interview

Makes me wonder what kind of rookie mistakes Elway will make.

I guess some will say his first mistake was to keep Xanders in a power position

Odysseus
01-05-2011, 09:04 AM
I know. He made his own bed. I just have a lot of respect for him and don't want him to do poorly.

People do not think about some of the obstacles Shanahan had to overcome to be whatever people want to say he was in Denver.

Schlereth gets paid to tell it like he sees it and his points are all valid.

I have nothing but respect for Shanahan and wish him the best. It was time for him to go in Denver. Halfway through his last season it was just getting silly.

BroncoInferno
01-05-2011, 09:14 AM
Bruce Allen is the GM of the Washington Redskins, and is in effect Dan Snyder's puppet.

Allen is the Skins GM in the same way that Sundquist was the GM under Shanny in Denver. Everyone knows Shanny calls the shots. He hand picked Allen to join him when he took the Skins job.

bronco militia
01-05-2011, 09:17 AM
Allen is the Skins GM in the same way that Sundquist was the GM under Shanny in Denver. Everyone knows Shanny calls the shots. He had picked Allen to join him when he took the Skins job.

probably....

shanny was given final say in personnel ....again

Tombstone RJ
01-05-2011, 01:50 PM
I was just thinking about this and this thread seems to indicate our next head coach is screwed. All of you are going to claim he is a failure for not winning 8-12 games with this four win team. There is going to be a lot of crying on this message board next season as I expect the rebuild to take more than one offseason.

funny how you are so patient with the incoming HC where as you were not willing to let McD finish what he started, video taping crap aside.

You're such a swell fan. I see the Mane is rubbing off on you...

jhns
01-05-2011, 02:07 PM
funny how you are so patient with the incoming HC where as you were not willing to let McD finish what he started, video taping crap aside.

You're such a swell fan. I see the Mane is rubbing off on you...

I would have given McDaniels time if he wasn't continually making some of the worst moves this franchise has ever seen...

Also, I have never even said anything about the taping other than to laugh at it. I honestly didn't care. It was what he was doing to the team that I cared about.