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View Full Version : If you didn't like Jake Plummer, how can you be a fan of Tebow?


bronco0608
01-04-2011, 12:14 PM
These two guys are amazingly similiar. When you talk Tebow, the one player on this planet that seems similiar to him was our very own Jake Plummer.

1) Both guys accuracy leave something to be desired for.

2) They are both great scramblers out of the pocket

3) They are both winners: Jake lost in the National Championship game to Ohio State, giving ASU its best season ever for that school. Plummer took the lowly, terrible Cardinals (probably the worst run organization in football at the time with their cheap owner Bidwell) to the playoffs and beat the Cowboys in the playoffs during that run.

Plummer then came to Denver and led them to three straight playoff births, an AFC championship game, and the teams second best winning percentage of all time over his stretch.

Tebow: 2 national championships at Florida, one as a starter.

4) Both players are tremendous leaders.

5) Both players fell in the draft due to questions about their accuracy and arm strength.

6) One guys praises Jesus, the other one looked like Jesus.

7) Both dudes play with a lot heart and passion for the game.

Tebow is Tebow, I get that. No one is exactly like him. But you have to admit, his game is a lot like Plummers.

Beantown Bronco
01-04-2011, 12:19 PM
Tebow throws a much better deep ball.

Inkana7
01-04-2011, 12:20 PM
I liked Jake. I like Tebow more.

Agamemnon
01-04-2011, 12:21 PM
Seriously? Do you really think Tebow plays anything like Plummer? Seriously?

bendog
01-04-2011, 12:21 PM
Jake was a flaky hippie. I always suspected he smelled of patchouli.

Taco John
01-04-2011, 12:21 PM
Which Plummer are you talking about:

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/2185/jakeplummerjakellhide.jpg


Who knows? It could be that Tebow has the same limitations as Plummer and will choke when the playoff pressure or big game is on. I don't think so though.

Smiling Assassin27
01-04-2011, 12:21 PM
One wore cardinal red, the other parted the Red Sea.

Drek
01-04-2011, 12:22 PM
He's a lot like Plummer if Jake was an inch taller, 30 pounds heavier, had all world natural athleticism, a strong arm, and excelled at dropping the deep ball on his receivers.

As for accuracy, Plummer's collegiate completion percentage was nearly 20% worse than Tebow's. Not exactly an apples to apples "he's not accurate" debate coming out of college. But Plummer's NFL rate did actually end up matching his collegiate rate. Wonder if Tebow's will too.

Ray Finkle
01-04-2011, 12:24 PM
He's a lot like Plummer if Jake was an inch taller, 30 pounds heavier, had all world natural athleticism, a strong arm, and excelled at dropping the deep ball on his receivers.

As for accuracy, Plummer's collegiate completion percentage was nearly 20% worse than Tebow's. Not exactly an apples to apples "he's not accurate" debate coming out of college. But Plummer's NFL rate did actually end up matching his collegiate rate. Wonder if Tebow's will too.

I doubt it. Tebow's mechanics prevent him from being a 67-68% passer at this point. I think you will see him around 60% which would be a vast improvement from the small sample size we have seen.

He seems to have an issue with the throws to the outside of the numbers.

jhns
01-04-2011, 12:25 PM
These two guys are amazingly similiar. When you talk Tebow, the one player on this planet that seems similiar to him was our very own Jake Plummer.

1) Both guys accuracy leave something to be desired for.

2) They are both great scramblers out of the pocket

3) They are both winners: Jake lost in the National Championship game to Ohio State, giving ASU its best season ever for that school. Plummer took the lowly, terrible Cardinals (probably the worst run organization in football at the time with their cheap owner Bidwell) to the playoffs and beat the Cowboys in the playoffs during that run.

Plummer then came to Denver and led them to three straight playoff births, an AFC championship game, and the teams second best winning percentage of all time over his stretch.

Tebow: 2 national championships at Florida, one as a starter.

4) Both players are tremendous leaders.

5) Both players fell in the draft due to questions about their accuracy and arm strength.

6) One guys praises Jesus, the other one looked like Jesus.

7) Both dudes play with a lot heart and passion for the game.

Tebow is Tebow, I get that. No one is exactly like him. But you have to admit, his game is a lot like Plummers.

I liked Plummer but not your comparison.

1) Tebow is WAYYYYY more accurate on deep ball. Plummer couldn't throw it deep to save his life. Plummer was pretty accurate on short and medium routes, and more so than Tebow is now, but he was also like a 10 year vet by the time we got him.

2) Jake was a good scrambler but doesn't come close to comparing to Tebow in this area.

3) Jake was a winner when it wasn't a big game and everything was going right. He also folded at the first sign that he had competition.

Mountain Bronco
01-04-2011, 12:26 PM
Jake didn't even like football. Didn't like to practice, only liked game days. Tebow lives and dies on every practice play, every game day play etc... Big difference IMO.

bronco0608
01-04-2011, 12:30 PM
He's a lot like Plummer if Jake was an inch taller, 30 pounds heavier, had all world natural athleticism, a strong arm, and excelled at dropping the deep ball on his receivers.

As for accuracy, Plummer's collegiate completion percentage was nearly 20% worse than Tebow's. Not exactly an apples to apples "he's not accurate" debate coming out of college. But Plummer's NFL rate did actually end up matching his collegiate rate. Wonder if Tebow's will too.

1) Tebow isn't a better athlete than Plummer. Plummer was fast. Tebow is bigger. They are just different athletes, imo. Both good though.

2) College passing completetion has risen dramatically since the days of Plummer. Even Elway at Stanford has similiar season's passing wise like Plummer in College. In both their third seasons in college, John and Jake both completed the same percentage of passes.

3) Deep ball? eh, I don't know yet. Tebow is better than plummer though. How good he is, only time will tell. He is not all world at it, though.

Taco John
01-04-2011, 12:36 PM
1) Tebow isn't a better athlete than Plummer. Plummer was fast. Tebow is bigger. They are just different athletes, imo. Both good though.

Tebow blows Plummer away in athleticism, IMO. I don't even see it as a close contest.

bendog
01-04-2011, 12:38 PM
Tebow blows Plummer away in athleticism, IMO. I don't even see it as a close contest.

Does he play a mean game of handball though?

bronco0608
01-04-2011, 12:38 PM
Who knows? It could be that Tebow has the same limitations as Plummer and will choke when the playoff pressure or big game is on. I don't think so though.

That is exactly what I'm saying. They both have the same limitations in their games.

As far as Plummer choking in the playoffs, he did beat two dynasty teams in Dallas and New England during his career. Elway's playoff stats will shock you if you look at it objectively, taking nothing else but his stats into consideration.

Drek
01-04-2011, 12:45 PM
1) Tebow isn't a better athlete than Plummer. Plummer was fast. Tebow is bigger. They are just different athletes, imo. Both good though.
Tebow was arguably the single best athlete in his entire draft class. WRs, DBs, RBs, etc.. He is the best athlete to enter the NFL at the QB position not named Michael Vick within the last 20 years.

2) College passing completetion has risen dramatically since the days of Plummer. Even Elway at Stanford has similiar season's passing wise like Plummer in College. In both their third seasons in college, John and Jake both completed the same percentage of passes.
John's career rate ended up pretty close to Plummer's as well, FYI.

Different era for sure, but its also a different era in the NFL. While most starting QBs have mild if any shifts in their completion rates from college to the pros we're suddenly supposed to believe that Tebow is the rare exception and that is completion rate will drop 20+ percent? That just doesn't pass the smell test.

3) Deep ball? eh, I don't know yet. Tebow is better than plummer though. How good he is, only time will tell. He is not all world at it, though.
Great. I do. He might not put everything together to go with it, but when Tebow actually has the chance to go deep to an open WR he throws a deep ball comparable to Aaron Rogers in form, trajectory, and accuracy. He has a rare talent for the deep ball that some refer to as "dropping it in the bucket". That ability to arc a deep pass into the outstretched hands of a WR. This is why Aaron Rogers, despite not having the best arm in the world, throws the best deep ball in the NFL today. It is a rare natural talent and if you watch Tebow throughout college, the pre-season, and his three starts in the regular season you can see that touch on deep passes.

This doesn't mean Tebow will be an elite deep passer, just that the natural ability to be one is there. He still needs the right offensive scheme, blocking, WRs, etc. to put it all together. But the natural ability to destroy defenses for letting a WR get behind them is present like very few others in the NFL.

Tebow compares to Jake Plummer well if you acknowledge that Tebow is basically Plummer 2.0 where all the biggest issues with Plummer have been replaced with strengths. Tebow is far from fully developed, but the package of skills he brings overall are more comparable to Steve Young than Jake Plummer.

Beantown Bronco
01-04-2011, 12:46 PM
As far as Plummer choking in the playoffs, he did beat two dynasty teams in Dallas and New England during his career.

Arizona's defense held Dallas to 7 pts. Plummer rewarded them by throwing 2 picks that game. He was along for the ride there.

Same against NE. The defense and special teams carried him in that game. Todd freaking Sauerbrun had more to do with it than Plummer did.

bronco0608
01-04-2011, 12:48 PM
Arizona's defense held Dallas to 7 pts. Plummer rewarded them by throwing 2 picks that game. He was along for the ride there.

Same against NE. The defense and special teams carried him in that game. Todd freaking Sauerbrun had more to do with it than Plummer did.

Then Elway's first super bowl win was because of Terrell Davis and our defense, right? Elway had like a 130 yards passing in that game.

I believe elway had a career 75 qb rating in the playoffs. Is that choking?

vancejohnson82
01-04-2011, 12:49 PM
you forgot that they both throw lefty at times

bendog
01-04-2011, 12:49 PM
That is exactly what I'm saying. They both have the same limitations in their games.

As far as Plummer choking in the playoffs, he did beat two dynasty teams in Dallas and New England during his career. Elway's playoff stats will shock you if you look at it objectively, taking nothing else but his stats into consideration.

<img src="http://images.mylot.com/userImages/images/postphotos/2283585.gif">

see bottom of page

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00/gamelog/

Popps
01-04-2011, 12:50 PM
Interesting thread, and I've made the comparison a few times around here.

I loved Jake. All he did was win games and put up a 2:1 TD/INT ratio while he was Denver. But, he had limitations of course.

Tebow absolutely reminds me of Jake. He'll have to work with a real offensive guru as a coach, and he'll need a game-plan tailored to his skill-set. He's not a prototypical NFL QB and probably won't be.

But as to the OP, c'mon... you know how this works. Most people disliked Jake because of a love for Griese. Then, those same people loved Cutler... despite his flaws, then hated Orton, despite him playing pretty well.

Don't look for logic around here.

I like Tebow and I think he's got a real shot to succeed if things are correctly put in place around him. Hopefully he'll be what Jake was to us back in the day... a guy who can spark this team to being a winner again.

http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Tim+Tebow+Pittsburgh+Steelers+v+Denver+Broncos+xoD VJGfYI-Cl.jpg

Uncle Bill
01-04-2011, 12:50 PM
Even though he had his flaws, there was a lot to like about Plummer. However, his one glaring weakness that couldn't be overcome was his pathetically weak arm on intermediate throws across the middle and to the sidelines. He was also pretty useless unless we rolled him out of the pocket. These shortcomings drastically limited our offense, and directly lead to Shanahan going with Cutler.

I'm not saying Tebow has the arm of Elway or Favre, b/c he doesn't. But it's plenty good enough to get the job done (above NFL average, IMO), and miles better than Plummer's.

Will Tebow pan-out in the long term? Who knows, but I'll take his combination of arm strength, size, athleticism, running ability, and determination any day of the week. Like him or not, he's either going to be a great QB or kill himself trying. I can get behind that for a few years--we're probably going to suck for a little while longer regardless, and at least with Tebow, the suckage will be fun to watch, and the risk/reward potential for giving him a chance is through the roof...

enjolras
01-04-2011, 12:50 PM
I doubt it. Tebow's mechanics prevent him from being a 67-68% passer at this point. I think you will see him around 60% which would be a vast improvement from the small sample size we have seen.

He seems to have an issue with the throws to the outside of the numbers.

?

I would guess that nearly 25% of his completions have come on out-routes. I've been much more disturbed by the lack of anything over the middle. In three games he hasn't thrown a single slant or drag over the middle that I can remember. You can't be successful in the NFL if you can't get a slant off in the face of a blitz.

But outside the numbers? He's been really good. Go watch the last TD drive against the Chargers. It was out-after-out. The pass to Decker was a roll-out.... but outside the numbers still.

Mile High Shack
01-04-2011, 12:52 PM
<img src="http://images.mylot.com/userImages/images/postphotos/2283585.gif">

see bottom of page

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00/gamelog/

yeah, the only thing that matters is 14 wins and only 8 losses in the playoffs

22 playoff games...wuff, that's a good career

Beantown Bronco
01-04-2011, 12:52 PM
Then Elway's first super bowl win was because of Terrell Davis and our defense, right? Elway had like a 130 yards passing in that game.

I believe elway had a career 75 qb rating in the playoffs. Is that choking?

Ummmm, I can at least cite games where Elway was SUPERB in the playoffs or in elimination games. One simply cannot do the same for Plummer. He sucked in every playoff game he lost and he sucked in every playoff game he won.

Did Elway choke in some playoff games? Sure. Did he choke in all of them? Nope. Would he have won the first one without TD in the lineup? Probably not. None of that changes my argument about Plummer above.

listopencil
01-04-2011, 12:52 PM
Tebow compares to Jake Plummer well if you acknowledge that Tebow is basically Plummer 2.0 where all the biggest issues with Plummer have been replaced with strengths. Tebow is far from fully developed, but the package of skills he brings overall are more comparable to Steve Young than Jake Plummer.


Good post, and this sums it up nicely. I agree.

bendog
01-04-2011, 12:54 PM
?

I would guess that nearly 25% of his completions have come on out-routes. I've been much more disturbed by the lack of anything over the middle. In three games he hasn't thrown a single slant or drag over the middle that I can remember. You can't be successful in the NFL if you can't get a slant off in the face of a blitz.

But outside the numbers? He's been really good. Go watch the last TD drive against the Chargers. It was out-after-out. The pass to Decker was a roll-out.... but outside the numbers still.

I've gotten the feeling that they're spoon feeding him on reads. He's reading man or zone, but I suspect he's not making the multiple route adjustments that McD's scheme entailed. He's got a coverage read, and 4 options with recievers running routes and maybe an outlet guy, and if he doesn't see anything it's "feets don't fail me now."

bronco0608
01-04-2011, 12:56 PM
Tebow was arguably the single best athlete in his entire draft class. WRs, DBs, RBs, etc.. He is the best athlete to enter the NFL at the QB position not named Michael Vick within the last 20 years.

Hardly. Joe Webb had better combine results than Tebow and just as good college stats than Tebow. And Webb went in the 6th round this year and started 2 games at qb this year. Tebow is a great athlete, but lets not get carried away.


John's career rate ended up pretty close to Plummer's as well, FYI.

Different era for sure, but its also a different era in the NFL. While most starting QBs have mild if any shifts in their completion rates from college to the pros we're suddenly supposed to believe that Tebow is the rare exception and that is completion rate will drop 20+ percent? That just doesn't pass the smell test.

See Brady Quinn. See Alex Smith. Plus a long line of other QBs whose accuracy went down when they reached the NFL. And I don't understand why you keep saying a 20% drop. Thats too much. Tebow completed like 65% of his passes in college. I'm not saying he is going to go down to 45%. No one is saying that. But a 10% drop with his long throwing motion and accuracy issues is legitimate speculation.

Tebow compares to Jake Plummer well if you acknowledge that Tebow is basically Plummer 2.0 where all the biggest issues with Plummer have been replaced with strengths. Tebow is far from fully developed, but the package of skills he brings overall are more comparable to Steve Young than Jake Plummer.

You think Tebow is closer to Steve Young, the all-time passing accuracy leader in NFL history than Jake Plummer. Wow, that is one hell of a statement and I can only hope you are right. That's just wow.

listopencil
01-04-2011, 12:57 PM
Interesting thread, and I've made the comparison a few times around here.

I loved Jake. All he did was win games and put up a 2:1 TD/INT ratio while he was Denver. But, he had limitations of course.

Tebow absolutely reminds me of Jake. He'll have to work with a real offensive guru as a coach, and he'll need a game-plan tailored to his skill-set. He's not a prototypical NFL QB and probably won't be.

But as to the OP, c'mon... you know how this works. Most people disliked Jake because of a love for Griese. Then, those same people loved Cutler... despite his flaws, then hated Orton, despite him playing pretty well.

Don't look for logic around here.

I like Tebow and I think he's got a real shot to succeed if things are correctly put in place around him. Hopefully he'll be what Jake was to us back in the day... a guy who can spark this team to being a winner again.


Yeah, I was going to post "What about people who liked Plummer and Tebow?" I liked Plummer and was pissed that the team drafted a QB. Cutler won me over with his athleticism, then lost me with his punk-ass bitch attitude. Orton actually reminds me of Plummer more than Tebow does though. I'd have to agree with Drek. Tebow reminds me more of Steve Young.

Taco John
01-04-2011, 01:00 PM
As far as Plummer choking in the playoffs, he did beat two dynasty teams in Dallas and New England during his career. Elway's playoff stats will shock you if you look at it objectively, taking nothing else but his stats into consideration.

Plummer did fine when he was leading a team with low expectations, and the pressure was low. When the pressure ratcheted up on a team with high expectations, he had a propensity to choke.

Saying that Plummer beat New England doesn't really jive. Plummer threw a game losing interception that Champ Bailey reversed.

Yes, Elway didn't have great postseason stats, but that had less to do with Elway than the fact that Elway carried most of those teams on his back further than they'd be able to go with a lesser quarterback at the helm.

theAPAOps5
01-04-2011, 01:01 PM
One major difference is Tebow lives to prepare and play football. Plummer lives to go play handball and hide in Idaho.

I liked Jake up until he checked out the last year after they drafted Cutler.

TheReverend
01-04-2011, 01:01 PM
This entire thread concept is ridiculous. The ONLY things they have in common are scrambling and leadership and quite frankly, Tebow dwarfs him in those areas as well.

Work ethic, arm strength, accuracy, pocket passing, size, football IQ are ALL advantage Tebow.

Beantown Bronco
01-04-2011, 01:02 PM
This entire thread concept is ridiculous. The ONLY things they have in common are scrambling and leadership and quite frankly, Tebow dwarfs him in those areas as well.

Work ethic, arm strength, accuracy, pocket passing, size, football IQ are ALL advantage Tebow.

The only glaring thing in Plummer's favor is that he seals the deal with hot cheerleaders. Tebow's got some work to do on that part of his game.

listopencil
01-04-2011, 01:03 PM
Ummmm, I can at least cite games where Elway was SUPERB in the playoffs or in elimination games. One simply cannot do the same for Plummer. He sucked in every playoff game he lost and he sucked in every playoff game he won.

Did Elway choke in some playoff games? Sure. Did he choke in all of them? Nope. Would he have won the first one without TD in the lineup? Probably not. None of that changes my argument about Plummer above.

No, Elway's passing stats weren't low because he choked. Elways' passing stats were low because the book on beating the Broncos in the playoffs had always been Stop Elway At All Costs. It was a great plan to beat us because Elway dragged those previous teams into the playoffs. He carried three teams to the Super Bowl that had absolutely no right to be there. When we finally had an actual team that was worthy of Super Bowl contention, we won.

Popps
01-04-2011, 01:03 PM
Tebow is far from fully developed, but the package of skills he brings overall are more comparable to Steve Young than Jake Plummer.

Can't totally agree here, Drek. While both Young and Tebow came out as mobile QBs, Steve Young threw for almost 4K yards his Sr. year and was a much more refined passer coming out of school. To me, Steve Young and Elway were very similar prospects. Tebow has the mobility and intangibles down... but is nowhere near the natural passer Young/Elway were coming out of school, imo.

Get past the first few runs, then watch him drop back into the pocket and zip the ball all over the field....

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/GyItiL7BoSk?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GyItiL7BoSk?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

I just haven't seen that side of Tim Tebow's game to this point. Not saying it can't be developed, but as a project... I don't think he compares well to Steve Young coming out.

frerottenextelway
01-04-2011, 01:04 PM
http://addins.wgem.com/blogs/sports/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/twins.jpg

Wish I was at home to Photoshop this.

OBF1
01-04-2011, 01:06 PM
If you mean 20 yards for Plummers "Deep Ball", then you are on to something.

listopencil
01-04-2011, 01:07 PM
I just haven't seen that side of Tim Tebow's game to this point. Not saying it can't be developed, but as a project... I don't think he compares well to Steve Young coming out.

Yeah, you make a good point, but he was throwing Young out there as an example of someone who has more in common with Tebow than Plummer does.

Popps
01-04-2011, 01:07 PM
Yeah, I was going to post "What about people who liked Plummer and Tebow?" I liked Plummer and was pissed that the team drafted a QB. Cutler won me over with his athleticism, then lost me with his punk-ass b**** attitude. Orton actually reminds me of Plummer more than Tebow does though. I'd have to agree with Drek. Tebow reminds me more of Steve Young.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Tebow fan and extremely hopeful he pans out. If nothing else, I just like rooting for the person. (Yes, that's old school and I'm fine with it.)

But, I still don't see the mechanics and comfort making all the throws from the pocket Steve Young showed coming out of school.

I think the Plummer comparison is more apt simply because they both came out with a couple of very strong elements to their game... but both need(ed) a real offensive guru to work with them and tailor a game-plan to their skills.

All that said, Tebow may well have intangibles that Plummer didn't have. I hope that's the case. He's sure fun to watch play. We'll see if that enthusiasm and fire can translate to the NFL level. Personally, I think it can.

Mile High Shack
01-04-2011, 01:08 PM
Hardly. Joe Webb had better combine results than Tebow and just as good college stats than Tebow. And Webb went in the 6th round this year and started 2 games at qb this year. Tebow is a great athlete, but lets not get carried away.




See Brady Quinn. See Alex Smith. Plus a long line of other QBs whose accuracy went down when they reached the NFL. And I don't understand why you keep saying a 20% drop. Thats too much. Tebow completed like 65% of his passes in college. I'm not saying he is going to go down to 45%. No one is saying that. But a 10% drop with his long throwing motion and accuracy issues is legitimate speculation.



You think Tebow is closer to Steve Young, the all-time passing accuracy leader in NFL history than Jake Plummer. Wow, that is one hell of a statement and I can only hope you are right. That's just wow.

so Tebow had
9285 yds passing 88 TDs 16 INTs 2974 yds rushing with 57 rushing TDs

compared to Joe Webb?
5771 yds passing 24 TDs 38 INTs 2774 yards rushing with 24 rushing TDs (http://min.scout.com/2/965380.html)

I stopped reading after I read that...you seriously made that comparison

Taco John
01-04-2011, 01:08 PM
Most people disliked Jake because of a love for Griese.


LOL

I can't decide which is funnier - the statement itself, or the fact that you actually believe it. That's a pretty warped take, but it's Popps so it's expected.

Nobody disliked Plummer because of any supposed love for Griese. I think everyone long understood that Griese was no longer starting material when he left Denver. Plummer burned his own bridge with Denver fans by choking in big games, and then flipping off fans and ranting to the media about how bad Denver fans are.

Watch Tebow in this last game and see the way that he threw the ball away when something wasn't there. In the playoffs, Jake Plummer would have forced those passes in for interceptions - if he didn't fumble them.

Plummer had a ten cent head (http://sports.outsidethebeltway.com/2006/05/jake-plummer-cited-for-alleged-road-rage/) and a work ethic to match it.

Jason in LA
01-04-2011, 01:09 PM
Jake didn't even like football. Didn't like to practice, only liked game days. Tebow lives and dies on every practice play, every game day play etc... Big difference IMO.

That right there is a huge difference. Plummer limited himself by not preparing properly. I like what I've seen from Tebow so far, even though I'm not totally sold yet. But I know that Tebow will do everything withing his power to make it work. When I found out about Plummer's practice habits it really pissed me off. No wonder he was so mistake prone.

bronco0608
01-04-2011, 01:10 PM
Work ethic, arm strength, accuracy, pocket passing, size, football IQ are ALL advantage Tebow.

Tebow completed 50% of his passes this year. Yet his accuracy is better than Plummer. I guess you are imagining additional completions to back what you are saying.

Pocket Passing? Even in Plummer's worst year in the NFL, he still completed a higher percentage of passes that Tebow.

Size: ok, I'll give you that.

Football IQ? How in the world do we know that? I don't know that. You don't know that. We won't know that until Tebow plays for a couple of years. What if he throws 20 ints next year? Have to wait on that one.

Arm Strength: Seem about the same to me. Could be Tebow, though. Jake Plummer did win the NFL QB challenge competition TWO YEARS IN ROW which tested accuracy and arm strength.

So think about it, half of what you wrote didn't even make a lick of sense.

Popps
01-04-2011, 01:11 PM
Oh and to the OP... of course you can be a fan of both. I mean, Jake was the last QB to win anything for us... and TT may be the next.

I'm a Broncos fan... so I'm a fan of both. Hopefully TT can take us a step further than Jake could.

55CrushEm
01-04-2011, 01:11 PM
Easy....because Tebow blows Plummer away on the work-ethic scale.

bronco0608
01-04-2011, 01:12 PM
so Tebow had
9285 yds passing 88 TDs 16 INTs 2974 yds rushing with 57 rushing TDs

compared to Joe Webb?
5771 yds passing 24 TDs 38 INTs 2774 yards rushing with 24 rushing TDs (http://min.scout.com/2/965380.html)

I stopped reading after I read that...you seriously made that comparison

Thats fine. You got me on that. But what about the rest of the post?

RaiderH8r
01-04-2011, 01:12 PM
Jake was a flaky hippie. I always suspected he smelled of patchouli.

And his mother smelled of elderberries.

Jason in LA
01-04-2011, 01:13 PM
You can dislike Plummer but still have hope for Tebow. They have a couple similarities, but I'd say that they are different players. And just because players are similar doesn't mean that they will be as good or as bad as each other. Some players can be really great with a certain style, and some really bad with the same exact style.

Kaylore
01-04-2011, 01:13 PM
Yeah Tebow is faster than Plummer.

I liked both QB's because they were my team's QB. I do have a soft spot for Plummer as he made Broncos football exciting again after watching lead-footed Brian Griese take sack after sack.

Tebow is a better leader than Plummer, though. He more natural charisma and is much more likable than Plummer. Right now, Plummer is the better pro QB. I hope Tebow will surpass him. It won't be hard to surpass Plummer's '06 season.

bronco0608
01-04-2011, 01:15 PM
Oh and to the OP... of course you can be a fan of both. I mean, Jake was the last QB to win anything for us... and TT may be the next.

I'm a Broncos fan... so I'm a fan of both. Hopefully TT can take us a step further than Jake could.

I don't get the hate for Plummer. When we weren't winning with Cutler AND Orton, they didn't get even get 1/10th of the hate that Plummer got when he was here taking us to the playoffs every year.

This is how it works: lose in the regular season, not choking.

Lose in the playoffs: choking

So a QB who can't win the regular season is incapable of choking, but the QB who leads a team to the playoffs somehow managed not to choke during the regular season, but loses a game in the playoffs chokes..

Its how you see things,I guess.

Popps
01-04-2011, 01:15 PM
Here are some highlights of our last wining QB for you all to enjoy...

:sunshine:

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/pl6QmrTeGE0?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/pl6QmrTeGE0?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

frerottenextelway
01-04-2011, 01:17 PM
I was at Plummers first game as a Bronco, anyone remember that? Could you imagine the noise if Tebow did that?

snowspot66
01-04-2011, 01:18 PM
?

I would guess that nearly 25% of his completions have come on out-routes. I've been much more disturbed by the lack of anything over the middle. In three games he hasn't thrown a single slant or drag over the middle that I can remember. You can't be successful in the NFL if you can't get a slant off in the face of a blitz.

But outside the numbers? He's been really good. Go watch the last TD drive against the Chargers. It was out-after-out. The pass to Decker was a roll-out.... but outside the numbers still.

That's just practice and reps. Unfortunately he hasn't had any. Our offense was as much limited by the coaching as it was by the fact that Tebow was running the scout team from the vast majority of the season.

Natedog24
01-04-2011, 01:33 PM
Jake Plummer is Jesus (http://jakeplummerisjesus.ytmnd.com/)

2KBack
01-04-2011, 01:36 PM
Jake Plummer is Jesus (http://jakeplummerisjesus.ytmnd.com/)

So we know that Tebow is a Plummer fan

snowspot66
01-04-2011, 01:48 PM
Tebow completed 50% of his passes this year. Yet his accuracy is better than Plummer. I guess you are imagining additional completions to back what you are saying.

Pocket Passing? Even in Plummer's worst year in the NFL, he still completed a higher percentage of passes that Tebow.

Size: ok, I'll give you that.

Football IQ? How in the world do we know that? I don't know that. You don't know that. We won't know that until Tebow plays for a couple of years. What if he throws 20 ints next year? Have to wait on that one.

Arm Strength: Seem about the same to me. Could be Tebow, though. Jake Plummer did win the NFL QB challenge competition TWO YEARS IN ROW which tested accuracy and arm strength.

So think about it, half of what you wrote didn't even make a lick of sense.

Tebow has a superior arm and it's not even close. As for accuracy Plummer's best year in College was 57%. Tebow averaged 67% and had his best year at 70%. He can drop a full 7% from his averages and still be a top 10 QB in the NFL. Tebow has been more accurate and I'm confident he will be more accurate in the future. Yeah he only completed 50% of his passes this year. He also had at least six dropped balls (dropped balls happen but not that often) and multiple throw aways in those games. He was not chucking it into the dirt every other play. He completes four more passes and he's sitting at 55% for his first three starts. If our receivers just held on to the damned ball we're not even having this conversation.

How about we have a little apples to apples comparison here. Plummers rookie year (his worst) was 53% completion. His first three starts? A grand total of 41/80 (51%) for 375 yards against the mighty 4-4 Oilers, the 4-5 Eagles, and the 5-5 Cowboys. That's a pathetic 4.68 yards per attempt and 9.14 yards per completion. Tebow threw it at 7.9 per attempt and 15 per completion. Plummer also threw 3 TDs and 5 INTs and ran for 100 yards and 0 TDs. Tebow took much better care of the ball, threw more TD's, and took just a little over one game to out do Plummer's rushing totals. So looking at that how could you possibly say Plummer is even in the same ball park as Tebow when it comes to throwing or running the ball.

Jason in LA
01-04-2011, 01:51 PM
Tebow completed 50% of his passes this year. Yet his accuracy is better than Plummer. I guess you are imagining additional completions to back what you are saying.

Pocket Passing? Even in Plummer's worst year in the NFL, he still completed a higher percentage of passes that Tebow.

Size: ok, I'll give you that.

Football IQ? How in the world do we know that? I don't know that. You don't know that. We won't know that until Tebow plays for a couple of years. What if he throws 20 ints next year? Have to wait on that one.

Arm Strength: Seem about the same to me. Could be Tebow, though. Jake Plummer did win the NFL QB challenge competition TWO YEARS IN ROW which tested accuracy and arm strength.

So think about it, half of what you wrote didn't even make a lick of sense.

He's started three games. Nobody expected him to complete 60+% of his passes. Comparing his three games to Plummer's career is silly.

TheReverend
01-04-2011, 01:58 PM
Tebow has a superior arm and it's not even close. As for accuracy Plummer's best year in College was 57%. Tebow averaged 67% and had his best year at 70%. He can drop a full 7% from his averages and still be a top 10 QB in the NFL. Tebow has been more accurate and I'm confident he will be more accurate in the future. Yeah he only completed 50% of his passes this year. He also had at least six dropped balls (dropped balls happen but not that often) and multiple throw aways in those games. He was not chucking it into the dirt every other play. He completes four more passes and he's sitting at 55% for his first three starts. If our receivers just held on to the damned ball we're not even having this conversation.

How about we have a little apples to apples comparison here. Plummers rookie year (his worst) was 53% completion. His first three starts? A grand total of 41/80 (51%) for 375 yards against the mighty 4-4 Oilers, the 4-5 Eagles, and the 5-5 Cowboys. That's a pathetic 4.68 yards per attempt and 9.14 yards per completion. Tebow threw it at 7.9 per attempt and 15 per completion. Plummer also threw 3 TDs and 5 INTs and ran for 100 yards and 0 TDs. Tebow took much better care of the ball, threw more TD's, and took just a little over one game to out do Plummer's rushing totals. So looking at that how could you possibly say Plummer is even in the same ball park as Tebow when it comes to throwing or running the ball.

This.

He's also including Plummer's passing outside of the pocket in that completion %. In the pocket Plummer was abysmal (and I'm a huge Plummer fan).

He's also not counting that 2/3 of Tebow's games were against the 1 and 2 ranked passing defenses in the NFL.

He's also not counting that Tebow was a rookie with no HC vs a vet under Mike Shanahan who has had not 1, but TWO Hall of Fame QBs give glowing praise to him and credit him for their development at their induction.

Gort
01-04-2011, 02:01 PM
These two guys are amazingly similiar.

nope.

Plummer is a quitter. when confronted with adversity, he packed up his bags and headed to Idaho to play handball.

Tebow is not a quitter. Tebow has been told at every level that he's not good enough to be a QB. he's responded to that adversity. he won 2 national championships and the Heisman trophy in college. he was a 1st round NFL draft pick. he played well as a rookie.

Gort
01-04-2011, 02:05 PM
I don't get the hate for Plummer.

it's easy to understand. he was a jerk. flipping off fans at Invesco. calling up a columnist and cursing her out after she wrote something he didn't like. he was arrested in college for sexual assault. etc. and then he basically quit when Cutler was drafted.

i'm not saying its all his fault. to be Shanny's whipping boy for every mistake had to have gotten old, but still... it's not like he was making minimum wage to play a game or anything.

lostknight
01-04-2011, 02:06 PM
1) Tebow isn't a better athlete than Plummer. Plummer was fast. Tebow is bigger. They are just different athletes, imo. Both good though.
As someone who watched both in camp and at practices, there is no question that Tebow's in another league.
[/QUOTE]

OrangeSe7en
01-04-2011, 02:06 PM
Easy. Its because they're not the same. For every reason the OP wants to say they're similar, you can come up with a reason for how they're different. And even if they have similar strengths, that doesn't mean, they're equally good at those strengths. So, in the end, its really easy to like Tebow and not Plummer.

BroncoSojia
01-04-2011, 02:06 PM
I don't get the hate for Plummer. When we weren't winning with Cutler AND Orton, they didn't get even get 1/10th of the hate that Plummer got when he was here taking us to the playoffs every year.

This is how it works: lose in the regular season, not choking.

Lose in the playoffs: choking

So a QB who can't win the regular season is incapable of choking, but the QB who leads a team to the playoffs somehow managed not to choke during the regular season, but imploded on himself during the playoffs.

Its how you see things,I guess.


Maybe it's because Plummer had a MUCH better team in the three years he "lead" us to the playoffs than Cutler or Orton had/have during their time here?

2005 Defense: 3rd in the NFL in PPG

2004 Defense: 4th in Yardage

2003 Defense: 4th in Yardage

We were top 4 in rushing each year that we made the playoffs with Plummer


So you're going to blame Cutler, a QB in his 2nd & 3rd year while he was here, for not making the playoffs in 07 and 08? (not counting 06)

07, his second year in the league (suffering from untreated diabetes for most of the year), we had the 28th ranked defense in points. The run game was very inconsistent with Henry being injured and scrubs running for us like Selvin Young, Andre Hall, Damien Nash. (rip) There's no way you can blame Cutler for how that year turned out.

08, we had the worst defense in franchise history: 29th in yards and 30th in PPG. We lost 7 RB throughout the season to injury and was without much of a run game until very late in the year, yet we finished a game out of first in the division due to Cutler and the offense.

Plummer had a much better team than Cutler while he was here and that's why he won more games. It's that simple and anyone who says otherwise is still blinded by hatred against Cutler.

Pick Six
01-04-2011, 02:22 PM
Here are some highlights of our last wining QB for you all to enjoy...

:sunshine:

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/pl6QmrTeGE0?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/pl6QmrTeGE0?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

You must have done something to alter the video. I was told, repeatedly, that Plummer can't throw the deep ball. It has to be someone else, with Plummer's head. Nice Photoshop work, Popps...;)

cutthemdown
01-04-2011, 02:23 PM
Plummer can't run or throw like Tebow. His arm wasn't as strong, he wasn't as fast or big.

cutthemdown
01-04-2011, 02:23 PM
Plummer could throw deep ball as long as he could wind up and step into the throw.

Drek
01-04-2011, 05:05 PM
Hardly. Joe Webb had better combine results than Tebow and just as good college stats than Tebow. And Webb went in the 6th round this year and started 2 games at qb this year. Tebow is a great athlete, but lets not get carried away.
At what? 40 times?

Because Tebow destroyed 200 pound RBs, WRs, and DBs in the shuttles, short yardage dashes, broad jumping, vertical, etc.. In everything but his 40 time Tebow was a top combine performer against players 20-40 pounds lighter than him.

I honestly don't get how people can see Tebow run for 94 yards against the #1 statistical defense in the league (San Diego) on less than 10 carries and yet somehow he's not an elite athlete.

If Tebow wasn't so naturally good at football he could be the star in Cirque De Soleil's headline act for the next decade.

See Brady Quinn. See Alex Smith. Plus a long line of other QBs whose accuracy went down when they reached the NFL. And I don't understand why you keep saying a 20% drop. Thats too much. Tebow completed like 65% of his passes in college. I'm not saying he is going to go down to 45%. No one is saying that. But a 10% drop with his long throwing motion and accuracy issues is legitimate speculation.
Failed QBs on bad teams played badly. What a shock. All I'm pointing out is the view that collegiate completion percentage is like minor league batting average in baseball, i.e. something that WILL go down, does not bare itself out in the NFL. It happens sometimes but with almost all your successful QBs it normalizes somewhere close to their collegiate level within a short time frame.

And Tebow's last year he had a 67.8% completion percentage. Some like to make up this whole "accuracy" canard based entirely off his 50% completion rate through his first three NFL starts with a mediocre OC and vanilla game planning. Its a joke. Its far more likely Tebow puts up a 60% completion rate next year than a 50% rate, statistically speaking.



You think Tebow is closer to Steve Young, the all-time passing accuracy leader in NFL history than Jake Plummer. Wow, that is one hell of a statement and I can only hope you are right. That's just wow.
So does Jim Harbaugh, the guy who just might be our future HC and the guy who developed the underclassman QB all the Tebow "realists" jerk off to.

ESPN Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5236931)

"I look at Tim Tebow's throwing motion and it doesn't look that much different than Steve Young's, if you put them next to each other,"

Similar throwing motion, similarly outstanding athlete (time relative) at the QB position. Both left handed. Both quarterbacked all world offenses in college. I could go on. Young struggled hard in the wrong systems, taking his lumps in the USFL and with Tampa, but ultimately he kicked ass. Tebow could do that too with the right coaching.

Agamemnon
01-04-2011, 05:39 PM
So Harbaugh's a Tebow fan? So much for him not wanting to coach the guy, or insisting we go for Luck...

epicSocialism4tw
01-04-2011, 05:48 PM
I liked Jake, liked Cutler, liked Orton, and like Tebow. I even liked Brister.

They're Denver Broncos, people.

Agamemnon
01-04-2011, 05:51 PM
I liked Jake, liked Cutler, liked Orton, and like Tebow. I even liked Brister.

They're Denver Broncos, people.

Until a player genuinely starts hurting the team with his play or off the field antics, I tend to have the same approach.

epicSocialism4tw
01-04-2011, 05:53 PM
Here are some highlights of our last wining QB for you all to enjoy...

:sunshine:

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/pl6QmrTeGE0?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/pl6QmrTeGE0?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

Love it.

Plummer was alot of fun.

Popps
01-04-2011, 05:56 PM
Love it.

Plummer was alot of fun.

Hopefully TT will bring back some of that excitement.

But, we've got to give him a real NFL defense and running game if we expect him to deliver.

ColoradoDarin
01-04-2011, 06:12 PM
I liked Jake. I like Tebow more.

Yep, and that's where the comparison ends.

Jake didn't like to work during the week yet played his butt off on Sundays. Tebow will work all week long and then play his butt off on Sundays.

epicSocialism4tw
01-04-2011, 06:15 PM
Hopefully TT will bring back some of that excitement.

But, we've got to give him a real NFL defense and running game if we expect him to deliver.

If we build a top 5 defense and let Tim and the offense develop over the course of the year, this team could make some noise late in the season and possibly make a push for the division title.

I think that by the quarter mark next year, that the team will be fully behind Tebow and will start trending upward. If the front office has the foresight to see that and decides to build a real and lasting defense, the sky is the limit for this bunch.

rocket88
01-04-2011, 06:26 PM
http://addins.wgem.com/blogs/sports/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/twins.jpg

Wish I was at home to Photoshop this.

http://i.imgur.com/WGwuK.jpg

epicSocialism4tw
01-04-2011, 06:28 PM
Until a player genuinely starts hurting the team with his play or off the field antics, I tend to have the same approach.

Tommy Maddox was a Steeler when I got to know him and figured out that I dont like him very much, but that was more of a personal thing. Ha!

Dude behaved like a trophy wife. It was weird.

Likwid Kerruj
01-04-2011, 06:30 PM
In far more attempts, Jake threw less interceptions left handed...

ColoradoDarin
01-04-2011, 06:30 PM
Can't totally agree here, Drek. While both Young and Tebow came out as mobile QBs, Steve Young threw for almost 4K yards his Sr. year and was a much more refined passer coming out of school. To me, Steve Young and Elway were very similar prospects. Tebow has the mobility and intangibles down... but is nowhere near the natural passer Young/Elway were coming out of school, imo.

Get past the first few runs, then watch him drop back into the pocket and zip the ball all over the field....

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/GyItiL7BoSk?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GyItiL7BoSk?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

I just haven't seen that side of Tim Tebow's game to this point. Not saying it can't be developed, but as a project... I don't think he compares well to Steve Young coming out.

Well, I would think that Tebow didn't throw for 4k yards because he never had to. Heck, he absolutely destroyed Cincy in the Sugar Bowl, threw for almost 500 yards and set the record for total yards in a BCS game (wrecked Vince Young's record there).

I'd love for my QB to never have to throw a pass because we're just running it down the defense's throat.

Popps
01-04-2011, 06:55 PM
Well, I would think that Tebow didn't throw for 4k yards because he never had to. Heck, he absolutely destroyed Cincy in the Sugar Bowl, threw for almost 500 yards and set the record for total yards in a BCS game (wrecked Vince Young's record there).

I'd love for my QB to never have to throw a pass because we're just running it down the defense's throat.

Sign me up for that, too.

footstepsfrom#27
01-04-2011, 07:23 PM
Hardly. Joe Webb had better combine results than Tebow and just as good college stats than Tebow.
Webb didn't compete at the combine and his college numbers lag far behind Tebows, in total offense by roughly 3,500 yards. Webb's pro day numbers would have put him #1 in the 40 and the long jump, and nothing is mentioned of the various short sprint/shuttle change of direction type stuff Tebow excelled at. Tebow's BP squashes Webb's by 17 reps.
See Brady Quinn. See Alex Smith. Plus a long line of other QBs whose accuracy went down when they reached the NFL. And I don't understand why you keep saying a 20% drop. Thats too much. Tebow completed like 65% of his passes in college. I'm not saying he is going to go down to 45%. No one is saying that. But a 10% drop with his long throwing motion and accuracy issues is legitimate speculation.
You can't possibly evaluate what Tebow's passing perentage is likely to be after 3 games in the NFL, especially given that he's still changing his delivery,etc...the idea is absurd.

db56
01-04-2011, 07:47 PM
I like'd Jake and dug the Outlaw Josey Wales look but he didnt love the game and at times showed that he really didnt give a crap either way.

imo, they are both scramblers and the comparisons stop there..

Taco John
01-04-2011, 09:55 PM
http://i.imgur.com/WGwuK.jpg

Nice...