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bloodsunday
01-04-2011, 08:55 AM
Much of the information we have now is based on "sources" and rumors so who knows if it's reliable. With that said, I HATE the way this off-season is going already.

First of all, you don't go get a coach and then FORCE Tim Tebow down his throat - no wonder Harbaugh doesn't want the gig. You hire a coach you trust to make the best decision for your organization. Not only have we in essence shackled a new head coach, but you've also limited your potential candidates down to "offensive-minded" head coaches. The risk inherent in this type of deal is crazy high. If Tebow fails, so does your new HC.

Second of all, I know Orton isn't Peyton Manning, but the guy deserves more. And the rest of the guys on the roster deserve more -- you know a chance to win next year not in 2012. Orton should be the starting QB of this team (not traded for a mid round pick we'll likely waste anyway) until Tebow EARNS the spot. Even if Tebow makes a huge leap -- and I hope he will -- during the offseason, Orton is a great insurance policy.

And finally, I'm not a big fan of all this rah-rah "Bronco way" BS and bring back players, coaches, and executives for nostalgia. McDaniels made some idiotic moves (and deserved to be fired for at least the spy-gate crap), but there was a reason Bowlen and Ellis liked him. They liked him because the "Bronco way", at least under Shanahan, wasn't getting it done anymore. We needed to re-evaluate the way we practiced, drafted/evaluated players, built a roster, etc... Ellis and Bowlen screwed up by giving McD too much power, not the other way around. We need to build on what McD was doing, not panic and trash it.

The best head coaching hires of the past 5 years have all been under-the-radar hires. So please, please for the the love of all Bronco fans, let's go get us a coach that can lead this team and this organization into the future and re-invent the Bronco way. And let's trust him to decide which QB gives us the best chance to win on Sundays. We don't need some rock star like Gruden, Harbaugh, or Cowher. We need a guy that can be creative, work with the talent we have, and mold a team that is greater than the sum of the parts.

2KBack
01-04-2011, 08:58 AM
What bothers me is that we are hearing rumors and rumblings about personnel moves, like trading Orton and reevaluating other on the roster....

AND WE DON'T EVEN HAVE A FREAKING FRONT OFFICE YET!

OBF1
01-04-2011, 09:00 AM
And we do not have enough talent for anyone to work with

bowtown
01-04-2011, 09:00 AM
What bothers me is that the offseason is only 2 days old, we've made exactly zero moves, and already the sky is falling.

Homer Simpson
01-04-2011, 09:01 AM
"you don't get a head coach and force Tebow down his throat, no wonder Harbaugh doesn't want the gig"

Yet you complain about speculation but use pure speculation as fact in your complaints!?

Taco John
01-04-2011, 09:02 AM
First of all, you don't go get a coach and then FORCE Tim Tebow down his throad - no wonder Harbaugh doesn't want the gig. You hire a coach you trust to make the best decision for your organization. Not only have we in essence shackled a new head coach, but you've also limited your potential candidates down to "offensive-minded" head coaches. The risk inherent in this type of deal is crazy high. If Tebow fails, so does your new HC.



I don't agree with this at all. We could have a guy like Ron Rivera come in and be the coach. It, of course, would make both the OC and the QB coach hires that much more important.

Taco John
01-04-2011, 09:04 AM
For what it's worth, "the right hire" is going to come to the Broncos with a plan on how they can win immediately. This means they'll be "saddling" themselves with Tebow.

No one is going to come into an interview saying "It'll take three full years to right this ship." They're going to come in and say that they believe we can be competing right away, and here's the plan...

bowtown
01-04-2011, 09:04 AM
For what it's worth, "the right hire" is going to come to the Broncos with a plan on how they can win immediately. This means they'll be "saddling" themselves with Tebow.

No one is going to come into an interview saying "It'll take three full years to right this ship." They're going to come in and say that they believe we can be competing right away, and here's the plan...

And if they aren't we'll run 'em out of town!

bloodsunday
01-04-2011, 09:06 AM
"you don't get a head coach and force Tebow down his throat, no wonder Harbaugh doesn't want the gig"

Yet you complain about speculation but use pure speculation as fact in your complaints!?

I'm not complaining about speculation. I complaining because we see enough evidence in the moves they have made (combined with sources) to know where this is going.

If I'm wrong -- for instance -- about them cramming Tebow down the throat of fans and the next HC, then I will happily eat some crow.

TonyR
01-04-2011, 09:06 AM
I actually think it's possible that Tebow reduces our options at head coach much the same way Elway reduces our options at GM. Some coaches might not want to be tied to Tebow, and very few if any GM candidates will want to answer to Elway. So I think the Broncos have tied their own hands on both fronts.

That being said, I disagree with the OP that Tebow has to "beat out" Orton. I think he's already done that. Tebow may not be the long term answer but it's time to move on from Orton regardless.

bronco militia
01-04-2011, 09:06 AM
i First of all, you don't go get a coach and then FORCE Tim Tebow down his throat


I'm having a flash back to February 2009.......I can't quite put my finger on it

tsiguy96
01-04-2011, 09:07 AM
and if they aren't we'll run 'em out of town!

Ha!

Taco John
01-04-2011, 09:07 AM
And if they aren't we'll run 'em out of town!

I've got my pitchfork being tuned.

frerottenextelway
01-04-2011, 09:08 AM
If Orton is the answer, you're asking the wrong question.

I don't think Orton gives us the best chance even now, much less in the long term.

Spider
01-04-2011, 09:08 AM
force Tebow down coaches throat ? Tebow is a Coaches wet dream ....

bronco militia
01-04-2011, 09:09 AM
force Tebow down coaches throat ? Tebow is a Coaches wet dream ....

who doesn't like a wet dream in their throat? Ha!

jhns
01-04-2011, 09:12 AM
Really? I would rather the coach doesn't get the say on who is on the roster. It is what made the last two coaches fail. That said, I would love to see a more experienced GM brought in. One that has been successful in evaluating and bringing in good players. Xanders only time being in charge of personnel was under McDaniels and it was by title only. McDaniels had the say just like Shanahan. That means Xanders still has never been in charge of personnel. With Elway being inexperienced, I would really like to see a proven GM brought in.

bloodsunday
01-04-2011, 09:13 AM
For what it's worth, "the right hire" is going to come to the Broncos with a plan on how they can win immediately. This means they'll be "saddling" themselves with Tebow.

No one is going to come into an interview saying "It'll take three full years to right this ship." They're going to come in and say that they believe we can be competing right away, and here's the plan...

I disagree with your first premise that the new HC will be saddling himself with Tebow. That's really one of the main points of what I've argued here. By putting all this out via sources -- the next HC candidate is going to embrace Tebow. However, he will embrace it only because it's the only way to land the job. Coaches with enough clout will reject this premise and go another way.

The fair way to do it is to let the guy present a plan to you on how he would improve this team. Most of them probably won't know until training camp ends which guy gives him the best chance to win. But if you put the candidate on the spot and make him choose today and he doesn't pick Orton, I don't think I'd want him as my coach next year. There is simply no way that you can convince me that Tebow gives this team a better chance to win right now. MAYBE after an off-season of hard work. But we'll have to see that unfold first.

DenverBrit
01-04-2011, 09:13 AM
What bothers me is that the offseason is only 2 days old, we've made exactly zero moves, and already the sky is falling.

Bingo!!

Kaylore
01-04-2011, 09:15 AM
I think rather than getting bent out of shape about no official moves by the front office, I would take heart that there hasn't been any official moves by the front office.

I always go back to what they said. Joe Ellis said in his press conference they have "some time" to get things worked out. I expect that they are going to be very methodical as they work their way through the candidates. Probably within a few weeks we'll finally hear on something official.

I do understand the frustration, but 4 win teams deal with a lot of that as they try to find their way back to civilization.

bloodsunday
01-04-2011, 09:16 AM
I actually think it's possible that Tebow reduces our options at head coach much the same way Elway reduces our options at GM. Some coaches might not want to be tied to Tebow, and very few if any GM candidates will want to answer to Elway. So I think the Broncos have tied their own hands on both fronts.

That being said, I disagree with the OP that Tebow has to "beat out" Orton. I think he's already done that. Tebow may not be the long term answer but it's time to move on from Orton regardless.

Good post.

That's why I said at the end that the Orton/Tebow debate depends on what you are interested in. If your position is to find a "franchise QB" at any cost, then yes it makes sense to move on from Orton. Of course this means that you embrace the risk that Tebow is not the guy and this becomes a multi-year effort to rebuild and find that QB. If your position is that we should build this team back to respectability and playoff potential while we develop a QB, then you have to have Orton on the roster next year. Tebow could be the better option 6 months from now, but if played a game on Sunday we HAD to win, I'd play Orton 10 out of 10 times.

tsiguy96
01-04-2011, 09:17 AM
the new GM is already on staff, he will just get a bigger role in the future.

RaiderH8r
01-04-2011, 09:20 AM
who doesn't like a wet dream in their throat? Ha!

My wife. To be fair that only started after she became my wife.

baja
01-04-2011, 09:21 AM
What if John Elway's first order of business is to rehire Josh McDaniels?

He has always said he was impressed with Josh.

Mile High Shack
01-04-2011, 09:21 AM
What bothers me is that the offseason is only 2 days old, we've made exactly zero moves, and already the sky is falling.

this....this whole microwave generation we got going on, wears on me sometimes

Ray Finkle
01-04-2011, 09:22 AM
Much of the information we have now is based on "sources" and rumors so who knows if it's reliable. With that said, I HATE the way this off-season is going already.

First of all, you don't go get a coach and then FORCE Tim Tebow down his throat - no wonder Harbaugh doesn't want the gig. You hire a coach you trust to make the best decision for your organization. Not only have we in essence shackled a new head coach, but you've also limited your potential candidates down to "offensive-minded" head coaches. The risk inherent in this type of deal is crazy high. If Tebow fails, so does your new HC.

Second of all, I know Orton isn't Peyton Manning, but the guy deserves more. And the rest of the guys on the roster deserve more -- you know a chance to win next year not in 2012. Orton should be the starting QB of this team (not traded for a mid round pick we'll likely waste anyway) until Tebow EARNS the spot. Even if Tebow makes a huge leap -- and I hope he will -- during the offseason, Orton is a great insurance policy.

And finally, I'm not a big fan of all this rah-rah "Bronco way" BS and bring back players, coaches, and executives for nostalgia. McDaniels made some idiotic moves (and deserved to be fired for at least the spy-gate crap), but there was a reason Bowlen and Ellis liked him. They liked him because the "Bronco way", at least under Shanahan, wasn't getting it done anymore. We needed to re-evaluate the way we practiced, drafted/evaluated players, built a roster, etc... Ellis and Bowlen screwed up by giving McD too much power, not the other way around. We need to build on what McD was doing, not panic and trash it.

The best head coaching hires of the past 5 years have all been under-the-radar hires. So please, please for the the love of all Bronco fans, let's go get us a coach that can lead this team and this organization into the future and re-invent the Bronco way. And let's trust him to decide which QB gives us the best chance to win on Sundays. We don't need some rock star like Gruden, Harbaugh, or Cowher. We need a guy that can be creative, work with the talent we have, and mold a team that is greater than the sum of the parts.

don't take this the wrong way BUT you've become a whiney bitch again.

nothing has happened. Harbaugh hasn't been offered the job or turned it down.

bloodsunday
01-04-2011, 09:23 AM
If Orton is the answer, you're asking the wrong question.

I don't think Orton gives us the best chance even now, much less in the long term.

BS. You think that a sub 80 passer rating (using only his 3 starts) with 50% completions and 10 rushing attempts per game is our best chance to win today? Those 10 rushing attempts alone mean that you are 1 play away from Brady Quinn as your starting QB.

And for the record, I never said that Orton is the best long-term answer. I think Orton is the best short to mid term answer. This franchise though enough of him AFTER drafting wonder boy to give him a contract extension.

I am not trying to be anti-Tebow at all. I like Tebow and I hope he works out. I just want to lower the stakes and give both Tebow and the new coach some room to grow over a season or two before just throwing him out there next year.

I see no reason not to keep BOTH guys. That's my point. Then see what kind of offense we build and what kind of off-season Tebow has before we decide.

Old Dude
01-04-2011, 09:24 AM
this....this whole microwave generation we got going on, wears on me sometimes

Hey, I'm still mourning the loss of rotary dial phones.

Inkana7
01-04-2011, 09:24 AM
Overreactive OP is overreactive.

ColoradoDarin
01-04-2011, 09:26 AM
if played a game on Sunday we HAD to win, I'd play Orton 10 out of 10 times.

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Garcia Bronco
01-04-2011, 09:26 AM
If the coach doesn't want Tebow then ****'em. Take your sorry butt up the road and coach elsewhere.

OrangeSe7en
01-04-2011, 09:26 AM
First of all, you don't go get a coach and then FORCE Tim Tebow down his throat - no wonder Harbaugh doesn't want the gig.

Yet people want a coach that doesnt control the personnel decisions. Also, hasnt there been a lesson learned from the Peyton Hillis fiasco? Someone should have been forcing Hillis down McDaniels' throat.

RaiderH8r
01-04-2011, 09:27 AM
Good post.

That's why I said at the end that the Orton/Tebow debate depends on what you are interested in. If your position is to find a "franchise QB" at any cost, then yes it makes sense to move on from Orton. Of course this means that you embrace the risk that Tebow is not the guy and this becomes a multi-year effort to rebuild and find that QB. If your position is that we should build this team back to respectability and playoff potential while we develop a QB, then you have to have Orton on the roster next year. Tebow could be the better option 6 months from now, but if played a game on Sunday we HAD to win, I'd play Orton 10 out of 10 times.

Orton HAD to win on this club on numerous occasions and fell short. He's no Manning. We tried to be, whether by choice or necessity, a pass first, pass second, pass third, maybe run, high scoring offense and failed miserably. Orton is no Manning. Orton is barely Orton.

Tebow gives this team a better chance to win than Orton any day of the week and twice on Sunday if for no other reason than Tebow represents a multiple threat option on third down. He can run, he can pass, he can scramble, he can turn chicken **** into chicken salad when the blocking breaks down. All Orton does is drop back and check down or go fetal, taking the sack. Orton has been figured out and we don't have the luxury of neglecting our defense for another year in an effort to accomodate Orton by drafting offensive weapons and dedicating more resources to that side of the ball. Tebow turns **** into shinola and with minimal investment can make tremendous strides.

We're not in a position to "have" to hire an offensive minded coach. We're in a position to hire a coach who recognizes the tools in the shed and has a clear vision of what is needed and how to best allocate resources. He needs an offensive minded OC with the mental agility to work to the strengths of the talent on hand. McKid always pissed me off because he insisted on running his running game without the proper front 5 personnel to pull it off instead of incorporating some of the ZB running game for which they were suited. We need a coach who doesn't micromanage everyone to the point of indifference. We need a coach who can steer the ship and manage the people doing the jobs for which they were hired and let them do their jobs.

Jason in LA
01-04-2011, 09:27 AM
I can see the point about hand cuffing a coach to Tebow, because to some degree it does limit them in terms of hiring coaches. But Orton, come on, dude is not the answer at all. If the Broncos want to go in a different direction than Tebow, okay, I can go with that as long as there is a good plan in place. But if that direction is with Orton, man, that would suck. The guy has earned his way some place else.

bloodsunday
01-04-2011, 09:27 AM
What bothers me is that the offseason is only 2 days old, we've made exactly zero moves, and already the sky is falling.

Wrong! Our off-season is now 4 weeks old as it started when we fired McDaniels. And the plan was revealed to us when they started Tebow.

This team has been playing for next year for a while now.

broncogary
01-04-2011, 09:28 AM
Hey, I'm still mourning the loss of rotary dial phones.

http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-VALENTINE-CARD-BLACK-ROTARY-DIAL-PHONE-CUTE-/120664843596?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c182f654c

jhns
01-04-2011, 09:28 AM
What if John Elway's first order of business is to rehire Josh McDaniels?

He has always said he was impressed with Josh.

I don't think anyone would have a problem with Josh being the new QB coach.

bloodsunday
01-04-2011, 09:30 AM
Yet people want a coach that doesnt control the personnel decisions. Also, hasnt there been a lesson learned from the Peyton Hillis fiasco? Someone should have been forcing Hillis down McDaniels' throat.

They aren't the same thing. Personnel decisions involve who's on your roster and who fits your system, etc....

Deciding who starts on Sunday is the job of the head coach.

sisterhellfyre
01-04-2011, 09:31 AM
There is simply no way that you can convince me that Tebow gives this team a better chance to win right now. MAYBE after an off-season of hard work. But we'll have to see that unfold first.

End of conversation.

RaiderH8r
01-04-2011, 09:31 AM
I don't think anyone would have a problem with Josh being the new QB coach.

Just put up one of those kiddie fences to keep him away from the front office or the DC's area. In fact, just keep him in a pack n' play when he's not coaching QBs and throw him some Gerber pureed carrots and peas and **** for awhile. Let Joe Ellis change his f'ing diapers though because F Joe Ellis.

TonyR
01-04-2011, 09:35 AM
I would rather the coach doesn't get the say on who is on the roster.

I agree. The coach shouldn't have "the" say but should have "a" say. Either way, it is possible that some candidates won't be interested in the Denver job because of Tebow.

bloodsunday
01-04-2011, 09:36 AM
Tebow gives this team a better chance to win than Orton any day of the week and twice on Sunday if for no other reason than Tebow represents a multiple threat option on third down. He can run, he can pass, he can scramble, he can turn chicken **** into chicken salad when the blocking breaks down. All Orton does is drop back and check down or go fetal, taking the sack. Orton has been figured out and we don't have the luxury of neglecting our defense for another year in an effort to accomodate Orton by drafting offensive weapons and dedicating more resources to that side of the ball. Tebow turns **** into shinola and with minimal investment can make tremendous strides.
First of all, you are giving Tebow too much credit. He lost 2 of 3 games. It may have been more fun than watching Orton, but the W/L total doesn't suggest it was any better. And if we are being honest, had it not been for a bunch of Oakland turnovers and some special teams gaffs by San Diego, neither of those loses would have been particularly close.

More importantly, you are making one of my central points. Tebow uses his running ability too much. He is very likely to get hurt. Then what? We don't have to choose one or the other. Why can't we have both guys on the roster and see how it plays out?

We're not in a position to "have" to hire an offensive minded coach. We're in a position to hire a coach who recognizes the tools in the shed and has a clear vision of what is needed and how to best allocate resources. He needs an offensive minded OC with the mental agility to work to the strengths of the talent on hand. McKid always pissed me off because he insisted on running his running game without the proper front 5 personnel to pull it off instead of incorporating some of the ZB running game for which they were suited. We need a coach who doesn't micromanage everyone to the point of indifference. We need a coach who can steer the ship and manage the people doing the jobs for which they were hired and let them do their jobs.
Argue it however you want. The new HC is going to be tied to Tebow. Yes there are scenarios where we could hire a defensive guy and get a strong-OC (ala Martz), but that seems unlikely based on how his is unfolding. The candidates mentioned thus far (and don't think Mike Klis just makes those lists up himself) are primarily offensive guys.

OrangeSe7en
01-04-2011, 09:36 AM
They aren't the same thing. Personnel decisions involve who's on your roster and who fits your system, etc....

Deciding who starts on Sunday is the job of the head coach.

No it is the same thing. Youre whining because someone is asserting authority over personnel in a way that supercedes the head coach. Its exactly the same thing.

bronco militia
01-04-2011, 09:37 AM
My wife. To be fair that only started after she became my wife.

Ha!LOL

HAT
01-04-2011, 09:37 AM
BS. You think that a sub 80 passer rating (using only his 3 starts) with 50% completions and 10 rushing attempts per game is our best chance to win today?

Since you bring up his completion % and rushing attempts as negatives.....Read this. (Starting with paragraph 7).

http://onemanfootball.com/2011/01/04/on-gunslinging-and-rookie-quarterbacks/

He also touches on Tebow's possible influence on the next HC. And the difference between a franchise QB and a franchise player.

As for Orton, his sole purpose for being a Bronco was to bridge the gap between Cutler and the next QBOTF. That purpose has been served whether or not Tebow turns out to actually be the QBOTF. For better or worse, 2011 is and always has been the time you go all in with Tebow. Quinn is a serviceable #2 in a pinch. Having Orton as a back up is a waste of resources & it's time to shop him as McD always intended.

bloodsunday
01-04-2011, 09:38 AM
don't take this the wrong way BUT you've become a whiney b**** again.

nothing has happened. Harbaugh hasn't been offered the job or turned it down.

Thanks. I don't take anything the wrong way coming from you.

As for Harbaugh, they won't offer him the job. The deal is already being worked through agents, sources, and side-conversations. If he's interviewed, he'll be the head coach. If not, then he wasn't interested. That's how it works these days.

jhns
01-04-2011, 09:44 AM
I agree. The coach shouldn't have "the" say but should have "a" say. Either way, it is possible that some candidates won't be interested in the Denver job because of Tebow.

Right. I would want them to still talk it out and make the group decisions like they have claimed they have been doing. I just would rather an experienced GM (and now Elway) would have the final say on who stays and who goes.

To me, I think Tebow has shown that he should be given a chance. We need so much other stuff that I really don't see the point in trying to replace Tebow right now. I also don't want to sit through another season of Orton failing. So if a coach is put off by Tebow, who cares? There are other coaches.

bloodsunday
01-04-2011, 09:48 AM
For better or worse, 2011 is and always has been the time you go all in with Tebow. Quinn is a serviceable #2 in a pinch. Having Orton as a back up is a waste of resources & it's time to shop him as McD always intended.

If your sitting in some office at Bronco HQ maybe this line of reasoning makes sense. But as a fan, I just watched the most wretched season of football in Broncos history and I didn't like it very much. That line of reasoning is more likely to make us the next version of Detroit or Buffalo then it is Green Bay or Atlanta.

If Tebow isn't the "QOTF", then what? We keep popping 50M on first round picks until we hit on a QB and Brady Quinn is the bridge to the next guy? F-that. Your friend in the article there makes no considering for the event that he's wrong. He suggests that there are only 3 players in the NFL that are "franchise" players and then asserts that Tebow is #4? Sorry if I don't want to gamble the next 3 - 5 years of this team by going all in on those odds.

This game of chasing your tail until you find a "franchise QB" never ends.

And for the 5th time, this isn't about hating on Tebow. I'm okay with the pick. I want them to invest in him. I want to see him succeed. This is not a Tebow hate thread. It's about doing this thing and intelligent way so that the organization and the next HC's success aren't tied exclusively to his success or failure.

maher_tyler
01-04-2011, 09:55 AM
What bothers me is that the offseason is only 2 days old, we've made exactly zero moves, and already the sky is falling.

Exactly! The playoffs haven't even started yet and people are trippin balls!! Calm the **** down!

colonelbeef
01-04-2011, 10:01 AM
I dont think any judgments can be made 2 days into the process.

Wait until something actually happens before you start to complain

bowtown
01-04-2011, 10:05 AM
Exactly! The playoffs haven't even started yet and people are trippin balls!! Calm the **** down!

If Mock was still around every post would be about how screwed we are because we haven't resigned any of our RFAs, brought in any FAs, and still don't have a coach.

bloodsunday
01-04-2011, 10:15 AM
Since you bring up his completion % and rushing attempts as negatives.....Read this. (Starting with paragraph 7).

http://onemanfootball.com/2011/01/04/on-gunslinging-and-rookie-quarterbacks/

He also touches on Tebow's possible influence on the next HC. And the difference between a franchise QB and a franchise player.

As for Orton, his sole purpose for being a Bronco was to bridge the gap between Cutler and the next QBOTF. That purpose has been served whether or not Tebow turns out to actually be the QBOTF. For better or worse, 2011 is and always has been the time you go all in with Tebow. Quinn is a serviceable #2 in a pinch. Having Orton as a back up is a waste of resources & it's time to shop him as McD always intended.

I read that entire article and I think that there are two major flaws in his arguments in projecting Tebow's success:

1) His minimizing of the importance of completion percentage. John Clayton just posted exactly the opposite on ESPN.com. The average QB in the playoffs is well above 60% and the elite guys are over 65%. What's more, guys like Bill Parcells just rushing attempts plus completed passes as a litmus test for success for a reason... you have to move the chains. Completing 50% of your passes means you aren't going to convert enough third downs.

2) He argues that there has never been another player like Tebow and that Tebow can run in the NFL without getting hurt. That's crap. Vick is more dynamic than Tebow as both a passer and a runner. Vick has missed tons of time due to injury. Steve Young dominated football before Tebow was even in high school. And more relevantly, Tebow got hurt in his first NFL game (preseason) by taking on a safety on a meaningless play. That play cost him valuable practice time and pre-season game experience. There is a precedent to think that he will have to dial back his running at the NFL level. Yes it's a good weapon to have, but he will not fulfill his potential as a QB until he learns to use his running ability strategically -- Steve Young would chew your ear off on this topic.

The rest of the article -- comparing him to recent rookies -- is good. And I liked the article by ColdHardFootballFacts.com (http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_3171_A_tale_of_six_quarterbacks.html). They give me hope that Tebow can make it in this league. That said, it's far from a given and I don't want to be a perennial doormat until we find out/give up.

baja
01-04-2011, 10:18 AM
Hey, I'm still mourning the loss of rotary dial phones.

What??? Mine works just fine


...and I have been giving my finger a ride back on the thing for years.

Tombstone RJ
01-04-2011, 10:23 AM
I read that entire article and I think that there are two major flaws in his arguments in projecting Tebow's success:

1) His minimizing of the importance of completion percentage. John Clayton just posted exactly the opposite on ESPN.com. The average QB in the playoffs is well above 60% and the elite guys are over 65%. What's more, guys like Bill Parcells just rushing attempts plus completed passes as a litmus test for success for a reason... you have to move the chains. Completing 50% of your passes means you aren't going to convert enough third downs.

2) He argues that there has never been another player like Tebow and that Tebow can run in the NFL without getting hurt. That's crap. Vick is more dynamic than Tebow as both a passer and a runner. Vick has missed tons of time due to injury. Steve Young dominated football before Tebow was even in high school. And more relevantly, Tebow got hurt in his first NFL game (preseason) by taking on a safety on a meaningless play. That play cost him valuable practice time and pre-season game experience. There is a precedent to think that he will have to dial back his running at the NFL level. Yes it's a good weapon to have, but he will not fulfill his potential as a QB until he learns to use his running ability strategically -- Steve Young would chew your ear off on this topic.

The rest of the article -- comparing him to recent rookies -- is good. And I liked the article by ColdHardFootballFacts.com (http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_3171_A_tale_of_six_quarterbacks.html). They give me hope that Tebow can make it in this league. That said, it's far from a given and I don't want to be a perennial doormat until we find out/give up.

You have to look at completion % and average pass yardage (how long were the actual passes?). If you have a high completion percentage but your average pass is 6 yards, then who gives a rats ass? A high completion percentage on dump offs and check downs is what is wrong with the NFL game, and in no way demonstrates the ability of a QB to score points or convert on 3rd downs or be productive in the redzone.

If you actually believe ESPN, then that's your first mistake.

Agamemnon
01-04-2011, 10:26 AM
God help us if we hire a coach that thinks replacing Tebow is the best way to get back to winning.

Taco John
01-04-2011, 11:06 AM
God help us if we hire a coach that thinks replacing Tebow is the best way to get back to winning.

Broncos fans won't need God's help to run that guy out of town.

Pandora is out of the box. This isn't as easy as getting rid of a sour-pussed diabetic with a strong arm and a strong liking for booze.

Agamemnon
01-04-2011, 11:12 AM
Broncos fans won't need God's help to run that guy out of town.

Pandora is out of the box. This isn't as easy as getting rid of a sour-pussed diabetic with a strong arm and a strong liking for booze.

Won't help us recover from the damage he's done...

ayjackson
01-04-2011, 11:17 AM
who doesn't like a wet dream in their throat? Ha!

I`ll pass.

Odysseus
01-04-2011, 11:22 AM
Much of the information we have now is based on "sources" and rumors so who knows if it's reliable. With that said, I HATE the way this off-season is going already.

First of all, you don't go get a coach and then FORCE Tim Tebow down his throat - no wonder Harbaugh doesn't want the gig. You hire a coach you trust to make the best decision for your organization. Not only have we in essence shackled a new head coach, but you've also limited your potential candidates down to "offensive-minded" head coaches. The risk inherent in this type of deal is crazy high. If Tebow fails, so does your new HC.

Second of all, I know Orton isn't Peyton Manning, but the guy deserves more. And the rest of the guys on the roster deserve more -- you know a chance to win next year not in 2012. Orton should be the starting QB of this team (not traded for a mid round pick we'll likely waste anyway) until Tebow EARNS the spot. Even if Tebow makes a huge leap -- and I hope he will -- during the offseason, Orton is a great insurance policy.

And finally, I'm not a big fan of all this rah-rah "Bronco way" BS and bring back players, coaches, and executives for nostalgia. McDaniels made some idiotic moves (and deserved to be fired for at least the spy-gate crap), but there was a reason Bowlen and Ellis liked him. They liked him because the "Bronco way", at least under Shanahan, wasn't getting it done anymore. We needed to re-evaluate the way we practiced, drafted/evaluated players, built a roster, etc... Ellis and Bowlen screwed up by giving McD too much power, not the other way around. We need to build on what McD was doing, not panic and trash it.

The best head coaching hires of the past 5 years have all been under-the-radar hires. So please, please for the the love of all Bronco fans, let's go get us a coach that can lead this team and this organization into the future and re-invent the Bronco way. And let's trust him to decide which QB gives us the best chance to win on Sundays. We don't need some rock star like Gruden, Harbaugh, or Cowher. We need a guy that can be creative, work with the talent we have, and mold a team that is greater than the sum of the parts.

Raiders brought back Art Shell. That year was a comedy of stupidity.

I don't care about name brand coaches. I want to see guys who can take mediocre players and teach them how to win. Broncos are not an east coast or big market team so they will always have to try harder or work with less. It's like our altitude. You just have to live with that.

You cannot always have the best players but if you give me an A coach with B players we will win games. You give me A players and a B coach we will lose games. Elway and Xanders are not coaches but they will end up being the support for whoever takes the helm. They need to lure talent to Denver. Elway might have the juice to pull in a coach but who knows.

Tebow is neither good nor bad until after the off season ahead. There is no rule against an incoming coach throwing some mentorship / competition at Tebow and forcing him to get better. The off season has not started yet.

bendog
01-04-2011, 11:25 AM
The "throat" and "tebow" thing just doesn't work for me. Actually it grosses me out a little bit, and worries me because if rumors are true, Parcells is our guy

Odysseus
01-04-2011, 11:25 AM
I know. Tebow is God. My bad. It had to be said sometime. Yes. I like Tebow. No. I don't think he should be replaced. Yes. I saw him play. Yes. I liked what I saw.

When did we become such pussies? Competition is about being the best not being ordained! Flame on if you must.

baja
01-04-2011, 11:27 AM
Broncos fans won't need God's help to run that guy out of town.

Pandora is out of the box. This isn't as easy as getting rid of a sour-pussed diabetic with a strong arm and a strong liking for booze.

You do have a way with words LOL

bendog
01-04-2011, 11:28 AM
I know. Tebow is God. My bad. It had to be said sometime. Yes. I like Tebow. No. I don't think he should be replaced. Yes. I saw him play. Yes. I liked what I saw.

When did we become such pussies? Competition is about being the best not being ordained! Flame on if you must.

There's not going to be any competition for the starting qb gig at camp in 2011, if there actually is a camp. Anyone they hire will want to work with Tebow. If they redo the Mcd lambchop thing, we'll be more dysfunctional than Oak and Cinny combined.

TonyR
01-04-2011, 11:31 AM
If you actually believe ESPN, then that's your first mistake.

Considering the top 4 guys in completion % this season were Brees, Manning, Rivers, and Brady I think there's a fairly compelling argument for the significance of the statistic, you ad hominem attack on ESPN notwithstanding.

Tombstone RJ
01-04-2011, 12:03 PM
Considering the top 4 guys in completion % this season were Brees, Manning, Rivers, and Brady I think there's a fairly compelling argument for the significance of the statistic, you ad hominem attack on ESPN notwithstanding.

Elway's career completion percentage is 56.9 my friend.

TonyR
01-04-2011, 12:10 PM
Elway's career completion percentage is 56.9 my friend.

So? That's close to 60%. And the game has changed, particularly since the earlier years of his career.

RaiderH8r
01-04-2011, 12:12 PM
Elway's career completion percentage is 56.9 my friend.

Pack it in, we're through. I don't even know why we bother having a franchise anymore.

Tombstone RJ
01-04-2011, 12:17 PM
So? That's close to 60%. And the game has changed, particularly since the earlier years of his career.

But we were talking about QBs "well above 60% and the elite guys over 65%" no? My caveat is that you have to look at the average length of the passes along with completion percentage in order to put completion percentage in its proper frame work.

TonyR
01-04-2011, 12:24 PM
My caveat is that you have to look at the average length of the passes along with completion percentage in order to put completion percentage in its proper frame work.

That's fair, but wouldn't this actually work against Tebow since he's thrown so many screen passes? I'm not condemning Tebow, we all know he's still a work in progress and has room to improve in several areas and the work ethic to do it. But you have to agree he's going to have to improve his completion %.

Rohirrim
01-04-2011, 12:29 PM
I like Harbaugh the most because I like that style of football the most.

Mile High Shack
01-04-2011, 12:32 PM
I like Harbaugh the most because I like that style of football the most.

yeah, winning, I dig that too

TheReverend
01-04-2011, 12:32 PM
That's fair, but wouldn't this actually work against Tebow since he's thrown so many screen passes? I'm not condemning Tebow, we all know he's still a work in progress and has room to improve in several areas and the work ethic to do it. But you have to agree he's going to have to improve his completion %.

Or the down and distance on called passing plays...

TheReverend
01-04-2011, 12:33 PM
Or the down and distance on called passing plays...

Or that 2/3 of the teams he played were ranked 1 and 2 against the pass this season...

jhns
01-04-2011, 12:39 PM
That's fair, but wouldn't this actually work against Tebow since he's thrown so many screen passes?

Nope. They only have the splits for his first two games but he threw 23 attempts that were 10 yards or less and 22 attempts thrown 11 or more yards. He attempts 10+ yard passes at a rate of 48.8 percent(through his first 2 games). He throws for an 8 yard average per attempt which is also pretty good(all 3 games for this stat).

To compare, Brady threw 343 attempts 10 yards or less and 133 of 11 or more yards (doesn't include week 17). That is only 27.9 percent of his passes that are 11 or more yards. He throws for a 7.93 average.

Manning threw 399 passes for 10 yards or less and 209 for 11 or more yards. That is 34.3 percent of passes thrown beyond 10 yards. He throws for a 6.92 average.

Looking at this it seems either we need to call different plays or Tebow needs to learn to look at the underneath guy more.

zdoor
01-04-2011, 12:54 PM
Or that 2/3 of the teams he played were ranked 1 and 2 against the pass this season...

This...

zdoor
01-04-2011, 12:56 PM
Good post.

That's why I said at the end that the Orton/Tebow debate depends on what you are interested in. If your position is to find a "franchise QB" at any cost, then yes it makes sense to move on from Orton. Of course this means that you embrace the risk that Tebow is not the guy and this becomes a multi-year effort to rebuild and find that QB. If your position is that we should build this team back to respectability and playoff potential while we develop a QB, then you have to have Orton on the roster next year. Tebow could be the better option 6 months from now, but if played a game on Sunday we HAD to win, I'd play Orton 10 out of 10 times.

I'd say we'd have gone 0-3 in those last 3 games with Orton...

TheReverend
01-04-2011, 01:00 PM
I think rather than getting bent out of shape about no official moves by the front office, I would take heart that there hasn't been any official moves by the front office.

I always go back to what they said. Joe Ellis said in his press conference they have "some time" to get things worked out. I expect that they are going to be very methodical as they work their way through the candidates. Probably within a few weeks we'll finally hear on something official.

I do understand the frustration, but 4 win teams deal with a lot of that as they try to find their way back to civilization.

100%

They need to formulate a plan before they can conduct interviews to see what coaches fit their plan, otherwise we end up with another Josh McFailure.

Tombstone RJ
01-04-2011, 01:04 PM
Brian Griese's career completion percentage is 63%, not bad.

CEH
01-04-2011, 01:07 PM
Chillax ppl.

Elway has had a personal service contract with the Broncos for the last 18 months so if you think they don't have a plan in place the minute Josh was fired then I can't help you

Everything starts rolling on Weds

Pioli wasn't hired until Jan 13 so they need to announce the GM first (Xanders?) then move on from there

bendog
01-04-2011, 01:09 PM
I'd say we'd have gone 0-3 in those last 3 games with Orton...

I think 0-2 and then the players would have been too hung over and depressed to show up at all for the SD game.

lostknight
01-04-2011, 01:10 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Harbaugh on the record as being a huge Tebow fan? Also on the record saying the only thing that keeps him up at night is playing against mobile quarterbacks? If Harbaugh comes here, it's because he wants to go to war with Tebow in his trenches.

lostknight
01-04-2011, 01:11 PM
Also note, that with a new GM, the only OM mindset that the coach can change QB's at will needs to go bye-bye. Just because Josh was a dick and destroyed the offense once doesn't mean the next team will. Anyone who comes in and immediately starts trading starters is gong to take some collateral damage.

bendog
01-04-2011, 01:16 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Harbaugh on the record as being a huge Tebow fan? Also on the record saying the only thing that keeps him up at night is playing against mobile quarterbacks? If Harbaugh comes here, it's because he wants to go to war with Tebow in his trenches.

And Mich is not a possibility, nor is Car, so the two hottest suitors in the nfl are Den and SF. Draft order:


1. Carolina Panthers

2. Denver Broncos

3. Buffalo Bills

4. Cincinnati Bengals.

5. Arizona Cardinals

6. Cleveland Browns

7. San Francisco 49ers

8. Tennessee Titans

9. Dallas Cowboys

10. Washington Redskins

Somebody in the 3-6 slots is going to take the second best QB, and Buff at 3 is a good bet. So, in SF the best he can do is hope Mallethead is still on the board or move up to get him, and that's paying more than where the guy will probably be rated.



Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/nfl/01/04/nfl-draft-order-2011/index.html#ixzz1A6U4VOAP

MaloCS
01-04-2011, 02:33 PM
I don't understand this whole Tebow/Coach relationship issue people keep bringing up. You guys are just repeating what the talking heads are saying on the radio.

First, just like any business, Bowlen (the owner of the team) must formalize a vision or business plan.

Second, once that vision has been established, he must hire staff that agree with and support that vision. You don't put the cart before the horse and allow a coach to create the vision; unless of course, that's part of Bowlen's vision.

Third, the staff, with a clear and concise blueprint, go out and assemble the pieces to execute the vision; whatever it may be.

If Tebow is part of the long term vision of the team then any GM or coach that gets hired must be on board with Tebow. The only way the vision is going to succeed is if every part of the machine supports it and believes it.

This philosophy may leave some qualified candidates on the table but as a business owner, I would rather have a person that agrees with the high level, direction of the team and is dedicated to succeeding. I forget who originally said it but from my experience in all walks of life the quote "It's not the best personnel, it's the right personnel." rings true. A well oiled machine with a common goal will always outperform a machine that is ripping itself apart at the seems because the pieces are pulling in different directions.

Again, if Tebow is part of the big picture then any coach or GM that comes in must be on board with Tebow. If Tebow's future with the Broncos is not a priority then all bets are off. I believe this decision must be Bowlen's and Bowlen's only; "Here's what I envision, now go get it done!"

Que
01-04-2011, 02:44 PM
Brian Griese's career completion percentage is 63%, not bad.

And Elway's was in the 50's. Elway's was also a Career 79 rating QB. Was slightly worse in the playoffs where the "games mattered".

Obviously Griese > Elway. Teehee. Which was exactly the absurdity you were trying to highlight me thinks...

Here is what I want in the priority that I want them:

1. Someone in the FO who knows how to evaluate defensive front 7 talent
2. A good QB coach
3. A defensive minded HC
4. An OC who likes to run the ball

Noticed I didn't toss in a new DC? When has getting a new DC ever helped us. I would be willing to give Wink another year to see what he can do with some talent. Color me nutty...

MaloCS
01-04-2011, 02:59 PM
Noticed I didn't toss in a new DC? When has getting a new DC ever helped us. I would be willing to give Wink another year to see what he can do with some talent. Color me nutty...

You may be onto something here. In my opinion, one of the greatest factors of success is stability. Stability which the Broncos haven't had from a defensive leadership perspective for many years. It may be beneficial for the Broncos to keep Wink as DC while focusing on adding players that can execute his scheme without relying on a "Type A" player to perform as a "Type B" player.

Sometimes I feel that the modern day coach has a tendency to outsmart themselves. Whether it's due to the pressure of winning or just a lack of patience these so called coaching geniuses always try and tinker with players and scheme which more often then not, leaves a lot to be desired from an execution standpoint. Sometimes, you just have to get the "right" players on the field and stop tinkering with schemes that require personnel to play out of their natural positions.

Tombstone RJ
01-04-2011, 03:04 PM
And Elway's was in the 50's. Elway's was also a Career 79 rating QB. Was slightly worse in the playoffs where the "games mattered".

Obviously Griese > Elway. Teehee. Which was exactly the absurdity you were trying to highlight me thinks...

Here is what I want in the priority that I want them:

1. Someone in the FO who knows how to evaluate defensive front 7 talent
2. A good QB coach
3. A defensive minded HC
4. An OC who likes to run the ball

Noticed I didn't toss in a new DC? When has getting a new DC ever helped us. I would be willing to give Wink another year to see what he can do with some talent. Color me nutty...

Nolan is the only guy I can think of that really, really helped the Broncos defense and after he left, well, you know the rest. That being said, the Broncos as a whole were in a state of transition...

Mile High Shack
01-04-2011, 03:08 PM
You may be onto something here. In my opinion, one of the greatest factors of success is stability. Stability which the Broncos haven't had from a defensive leadership perspective for many years. It may be beneficial for the Broncos to keep Wink as DC while focusing on adding players that can execute his scheme without relying on a "Type A" player to perform as a "Type B" player.

Sometimes I feel that the modern day coach has a tendency to outsmart themselves. Whether it's due to the pressure of winning or just a lack of patience these so called coaching geniuses always try and tinker with players and scheme which more often then not, leaves a lot to be desired from an execution standpoint. Sometimes, you just have to get the "right" players on the field and stop tinkering with schemes that require personnel to play out of their natural positions.

we had one of the worst defenses in the history of the NFL and you want to keep to DC just for continuity reasons?

pass

MaloCS
01-04-2011, 04:16 PM
we had one of the worst defenses in the history of the NFL and you want to keep to DC just for continuity reasons?

pass

Your "pass" is definitely an option and something that should be considered. I just believe in continuity and stability as factors that breed success.

Look, I don't care how great the schemes are if the personnel that's on the field can't execute those schemes. Today's coaches have a tendency to drink their own Kool-Aid and believe that the success of the team is a result of how they coach and the schemes they teach. I don't believe this to be true.

Football teams are successful because the players on the field are more talented then the opposing players. I don't care how sexy the X's and O's look on the chalkboard because all that matters is if your players beat the opposing players. Coaches seem to believe they can affect the outcome of the game in the same manner a chess Grandmaster commands his game pieces. This just isn't the case because there are too many variables involved and the X's and O's can't account for the God given talent and desire that defensive end has when he has a target on your quarterback.

In my opinion I would love to see some stability with an emphasis on quality personnel that supports the scheme. It just doesn't matter how good a coach is if the personnel he has on his squad can't play the game.

boppool
01-04-2011, 05:48 PM
First of all, you don't go get a coach and then FORCE Tim Tebow down his throat - no wonder Harbaugh doesn't want the gig. You hire a coach you trust to make the best decision for your organization. Not only have we in essence shackled a new head coach, but you've also limited your potential candidates down to "offensive-minded" head coaches. The risk inherent in this type of deal is crazy high. If Tebow fails, so does your new HC.

So, you're saying if you were Harbaugh, you'd rather go to place like Cleveland (Colt McCoy), San Francisco (Alex Smith) or Carolina (Andrew Luck?). Who knows how Tebow will turn out eventually, but he's very coachable, guy with the least character flaws and proven winner who'd do anything for his team. Heck, I think Tebow may be our biggest selling point!

Denver has always been still is, despite the recent struggle, as one of top jobs in NFL with its fanbase and rich tradition. If Harbaugh doesn't want to be the HC of Denver, it's not because of Tebow.

Odysseus
01-05-2011, 01:24 AM
There's not going to be any competition for the starting qb gig at camp in 2011, if there actually is a camp. Anyone they hire will want to work with Tebow. If they redo the Mcd lambchop thing, we'll be more dysfunctional than Oak and Cinny combined.

Good point. I keep forgetting how corporate the NFL has gotten. You are right. They just don't have the right mindset to pull that idea off and I need to just let that **** go.

Thanks.

Odysseus
01-05-2011, 01:28 AM
we had one of the worst defenses in the history of the NFL and you want to keep to DC just for continuity reasons?

pass

Our defense has been a misery for years. On good years it runs hot and cold.

bloodsunday
01-05-2011, 07:52 AM
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Harbaugh on the record as being a huge Tebow fan? Also on the record saying the only thing that keeps him up at night is playing against mobile quarterbacks? If Harbaugh comes here, it's because he wants to go to war with Tebow in his trenches.

Screw Harbaugh. He's playing this thing like Cowher and Gruden. I don't want a rock star. I want a guy ready to go to work.

bloodsunday
01-05-2011, 08:08 AM
You have to look at completion % and average pass yardage (how long were the actual passes?). If you have a high completion percentage but your average pass is 6 yards, then who gives a rats ass? A high completion percentage on dump offs and check downs is what is wrong with the NFL game, and in no way demonstrates the ability of a QB to score points or convert on 3rd downs or be productive in the redzone.

If you actually believe ESPN, then that's your first mistake.

You could slice and dice that a million ways. The bottom line is that 50% is WAY below the elite NFL QBs. It is an important stat, period. The modern NFL game uses the pass to set up the run or as an alternative to the run in certain situations, which is why completion percentages are higher now than they were during Elway's career. Our 3rd down conversion percentage was 32% (12/37) under Tebow. That's why completion percentage matters. Of the top 10

New Orleans 48.8 - Brees 68.1 (1st overall)
New England 48.2 - Brady 65.9 (4th overall)
Atlanta 46.7 - Matt Ryan 62.5 (12th overall)
San Diego 44.9 - Phillip Rivers 66.0 (3rd overall)
Indianapolis 44.6 - Peyton Manning 66.3 (2nd overall)
Pittsburgh 43.1 - Ben Roethlisberger 61.7 (15th overall)
Tampa Bay 42.2 - Josh Freeman 61.4 (17th overall)
Green Bay 41.5 - Aaron Rogers 65.7 (6th overall)
Houston 41.1 - Matt Schaub 63.6 (8th overall)
Dallas 40.8 - Jon Kitna 65.7 (5th overall)

So of the top 10 offenses at converting 3rd downs, not 1 QB was in the 50s in completion percentage. The average overall rank of those QBs in completion percentage was 7. And 6 of those teams were are in the playoffs with San Diego and Tampa Bay only 1 game away.

It matters.

Odysseus
01-05-2011, 08:52 AM
Screw Harbaugh. He's playing this thing like Cowher and Gruden. I don't want a rock star. I want a guy ready to go to work.

Roger that!

bloodsunday
01-06-2011, 07:37 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_17021315

Elway agrees with me (Tebow is far from a finished product):

Elway said the film he's watched shows Tebow to be "very raw," especially when it comes to the fundamentals of being a pocket passer and "anticipating throws."
"Those are the things that he has to get a lot better at," Elway said. "He's got the intangibles. He's going to make the plays that you can't coach, as he did against Houston. He's going to make those plays, but he's got to be able to, for us to win a championship, he's got those intangibles, but he's got to win it from within the pocket."


For those of you that still don't get it:Translation -- the offense he ran at Florida won't work in the NFL and you can't survive throwing 50% completion percentage no matter how far down the field you are throwing the ball.

Mile High Shack
01-06-2011, 07:38 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_17021315

Elway agrees with me (Tebow is far from a finished product):


For those of you that still don't get it:Translation -- the offense he ran at Florida won't work in the NFL and you can't survive throwing 50% completion percentage no matter how far down the field you are throwing the ball.

who says he still doesn't need work? I can't find one poster who thinks he is fine the way he is

I think we believe in his work ethic and talent to get him to be a great QB

bloodsunday
01-06-2011, 07:45 AM
who says he still doesn't need work? I can't find one poster who thinks he is fine the way he is

I think we believe in his work ethic and talent to get him to be a great QB

There are people in this thread that rationalized away his poor completion percentage and suggested that him running the ball 10 - 12 times a game is a sustainable way of running an offense. It took objection to both assertions.

bloodsunday
01-06-2011, 07:47 AM
More fuel for the fire:
http://www.denverpost.com/krieger/ci_17021568


If you're a football fan in, say, Kansas City, San Diego or Oakland, you might be scratching your head. The Broncos just hired a local icon who's a novice NFL executive. They're not doing a national search for a general manager. And three of their candidates for head coach have been fired by the Buffalo Bills.

Put the shoe on the other foot. What would you think if the Chiefs named Len Dawson to run their football operation? If the Chargers named Dan Fouts? If the Raiders went with Jim Plunkett?

RaiderH8r
01-06-2011, 08:00 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_17021315

Elway agrees with me (Tebow is far from a finished product):


For those of you that still don't get it:Translation -- the offense he ran at Florida won't work in the NFL and you can't survive throwing 50% completion percentage no matter how far down the field you are throwing the ball.

Well Ho LEE Sheet a rookie QB has areas in need of improvement? You sure you want to walk out on that limb? Seems tenuous.

TonyR
01-06-2011, 08:01 AM
More fuel for the fire:

Yup. As I said in another thread today, if we'd have hired Scott Pioli after Shanahan was fired we'd be talking about our upcoming playoff game right now.

Rohirrim
01-06-2011, 08:06 AM
More fuel for the fire:
http://www.denverpost.com/krieger/ci_17021568

Krieger is right about one thing: Xanders is the weak link going forward. I would have much, much preferred they bring in somebody like Eric Decosta. Elway is rolling the dice on Xanders. I don't feel confident in that bet at all.

bloodsunday
01-06-2011, 08:11 AM
Well Ho LEE Sheet a rookie QB has areas in need of improvement? You sure you want to walk out on that limb? Seems tenuous.

You are missing the point. Yes everyone acknolwedges that he needs to make strides. We are talking about very different degrees though:

Mine: My assertion is that we should keep Kyle Orton and see how far Tebow comes in the off season. The worst case scenario is that Kyle is an over-paid backup QB. But it's a better scenario than Tebow continuing to complete 50% of his passes OR that he gets hurt taking on a safety or LB for a meaningless extra yard and we have to go to Brady Quinn.

All-in-with-Tebow-crowd: The assertion of those that I am trying to refute is that Tebow's 50% completion percentage is not a big deal because his attempts are farther down field and that he can continue to run the ball 10 - 12 times a game at the NFL level because he's a unique QB like we've never seen before.

My reason for posting Elway's link is that it directly conflicts with the line of thinking for the "All-in-with-Tebow-crowd".

See I want to win NFL games next year. You play to win the game. :wave:

Caught up yet?

Cito Pelon
01-06-2011, 08:22 AM
Krieger is right about one thing: Xanders is the weak link going forward. I would have much, much preferred they bring in somebody like Eric Decosta. Elway is rolling the dice on Xanders. I don't feel confident in that bet at all.

Maybe Ellis wants Xanders left in place. Drek had some good points in the "Joe Ellis President" thread.

Ellis was driving the Bronco bus when Josh was hired, the Goodman's got fired, and Xanders took over the GM/scouting operation. So maybe Ellis is still driving the bus in that regard - had to fire Josh, but still has one of his guys in the chain of command.

TheReverend
01-06-2011, 08:54 AM
You are missing the point. Yes everyone acknolwedges that he needs to make strides. We are talking about very different degrees though:

Mine: My assertion is that we should keep Kyle Orton and see how far Tebow comes in the off season. The worst case scenario is that Kyle is an over-paid backup QB. But it's a better scenario than Tebow continuing to complete 50% of his passes OR that he gets hurt taking on a safety or LB for a meaningless extra yard and we have to go to Brady Quinn.

All-in-with-Tebow-crowd: The assertion of those that I am trying to refute is that Tebow's 50% completion percentage is not a big deal because his attempts are farther down field and that he can continue to run the ball 10 - 12 times a game at the NFL level because he's a unique QB like we've never seen before.

My reason for posting Elway's link is that it directly conflicts with the line of thinking for the "All-in-with-Tebow-crowd".

See I want to win NFL games next year. You play to win the game. :wave:

Caught up yet?

I think you're kinda holding somethings against Tim that aren't quite fair.

1. The play calling in his first game put him in a substantial amount of 3rd and very long situations against the #2 pass D in the league. It was such a blatant issue even Gaffney spoke out about it publicly.

2. 2 out of 3 of his games were against the #1 and #2 pass defenses in the league.

3. The one game that wasn't against a top pass defense, he faced an average of 3rd and NINE and still moved the chains at a higher rate than Kyle had.

4. The offense scored 20.7 ppg under Orton and an even 25 ppg under Tebow despite playing those tougher than the median defenses Kyle faced. That's over a 20% improvement and would be good enough to have us in the top 10 in scoring (#7 to be exact)

Side Note: I do agree that Kyle is better off being kept, though my opinion is based more off the poor compensation value I think we'd get for him.

bloodsunday
01-06-2011, 09:54 AM
I think you're kinda holding somethings against Tim that aren't quite fair.

1. The play calling in his first game put him in a substantial amount of 3rd and very long situations against the #2 pass D in the league. It was such a blatant issue even Gaffney spoke out about it publicly.

2. 2 out of 3 of his games were against the #1 and #2 pass defenses in the league.

3. The one game that wasn't against a top pass defense, he faced an average of 3rd and NINE and still moved the chains at a higher rate than Kyle had.

4. The offense scored 20.7 ppg under Orton and an even 25 ppg under Tebow despite playing those tougher than the median defenses Kyle faced. That's over a 20% improvement and would be good enough to have us in the top 10 in scoring (#7 to be exact)

Side Note: I do agree that Kyle is better off being kept, though my opinion is based more off the poor compensation value I think we'd get for him.

I'm not really holding anything against him. I want Tim Tebow to succeed. I like him as a prospect and I think it's in the best interest of our team to continue to develop him. I'm really not trying to belittle him or what he did in his final three games.

What I am saying, is that we haven't seen enough to go "all in" and risk writing off an entire season (or more) if he doesn't pan out, particularly with the risk of injury playing as aggressively as he does. And I agree the compensation we'll get for Orton no where near offsets the value he could add next year.

I don't believe that the quest to find a franchise QB or franchise player at the expense of winning games now is a good strategy for NFL teams to undertake. I think that strategy is what leads to you drafting in the Top 10 every year for a decade. You make the most of the players on your current roster -- and Orton is definitely 1 of the top 10 players on our roster -- and try to win with what you have until you can develop more players.

As Elway pointed out -- Tebow is "very raw". That means that hoping he can lead us to an 8 - 10 win season next year (particularly with holes seemingly everywhere) is unlikely at best. I know some people are prepared to have a "rebuilding phase" and wait it out 2 -3 years IF Tebow isn't an over night success. But that's just not smart IMHO. It puts the footing of our next coach in jeopardy. It puts the sell out streak and attendance at Invesco in jeopardy, which in turn puts pressure on the coach and the franchise.

TheReverend
01-06-2011, 10:05 AM
I'm not really holding anything against him. I want Tim Tebow to succeed. I like him as a prospect and I think it's in the best interest of our team to continue to develop him. I'm really not trying to belittle him or what he did in his final three games.

What I am saying, is that we haven't seen enough to go "all in" and risk writing off an entire season (or more) if he doesn't pan out, particularly with the risk of injury playing as aggressively as he does. And I agree the compensation we'll get for Orton no where near offsets the value he could add next year.

I don't believe that the quest to find a franchise QB or franchise player at the expense of winning games now is a good strategy for NFL teams to undertake. I think that strategy is what leads to you drafting in the Top 10 every year for a decade. You make the most of the players on your current roster -- and Orton is definitely 1 of the top 10 players on our roster -- and try to win with what you have until you can develop more players.

As Elway pointed out -- Tebow is "very raw". That means that hoping he can lead us to an 8 - 10 win season next year (particularly with holes seemingly everywhere) is unlikely at best. I know some people are prepared to have a "rebuilding phase" and wait it out 2 -3 years IF Tebow isn't an over night success. But that's just not smart IMHO. It puts the footing of our next coach in jeopardy. It puts the sell out streak and attendance at Invesco in jeopardy, which in turn puts pressure on the coach and the franchise.

Then why is your POV on the conversation so skewed?

You mentioned Tebow going 12/37 on 3rd down (32%), but didn't bother to mention a higher quality of opposition OR the fact that Kyle Orton was 55/170 (32%) on 3rd down against a lower average of defensive opposition.

Facts remain, we were hands down more competitive, scored more against tougher competition and moved the chains at the same rate (hell, we even netted 18 first downs against the NFL's #1 defense, 16 under Orton), all with an interim head coach and McCoy playcalling. That's a pretty significant endorsement.

Final inflamatory note: I'd take raw talent over polished **** every day of the weak Ha!

jhns
01-06-2011, 10:31 AM
I'm not really holding anything against him. I want Tim Tebow to succeed. I like him as a prospect and I think it's in the best interest of our team to continue to develop him. I'm really not trying to belittle him or what he did in his final three games.

What I am saying, is that we haven't seen enough to go "all in" and risk writing off an entire season (or more) if he doesn't pan out, particularly with the risk of injury playing as aggressively as he does. And I agree the compensation we'll get for Orton no where near offsets the value he could add next year.

I don't believe that the quest to find a franchise QB or franchise player at the expense of winning games now is a good strategy for NFL teams to undertake. I think that strategy is what leads to you drafting in the Top 10 every year for a decade. You make the most of the players on your current roster -- and Orton is definitely 1 of the top 10 players on our roster -- and try to win with what you have until you can develop more players.

As Elway pointed out -- Tebow is "very raw". That means that hoping he can lead us to an 8 - 10 win season next year (particularly with holes seemingly everywhere) is unlikely at best. I know some people are prepared to have a "rebuilding phase" and wait it out 2 -3 years IF Tebow isn't an over night success. But that's just not smart IMHO. It puts the footing of our next coach in jeopardy. It puts the sell out streak and attendance at Invesco in jeopardy, which in turn puts pressure on the coach and the franchise.

Why haven't we seen enough to go all in with Tebow for next season? He is already outplaying Orton. How does it make sense to say that we need to keep Orton because you want to win? So if our offense is not nearly as good, we have a better chance at winning?

Keeping Orton and that salary could be the difference of us keeping Champ or letting him walk. Elway already said they have to work the budget to see if they can find room for Champ.

Tebow has shown enough that he should get the starting job next season. If he doesn't improve and the team is horrible, we can use the next top 5 pick on another QB. It isn't like Orton will make us any better. The guy is horrible. He was outplayed by a project rookie... Not that this needs argued. Elway has made it pretty clear that Tebow will be starting. He said if the next coach doesn't want Tebow, he probably isn't the coach they want.

MaloCS
01-06-2011, 10:38 AM
My reason for posting Elway's link is that it directly conflicts with the line of thinking for the "All-in-with-Tebow-crowd".

What you're missing or what you're choosing to overlook are the comments made by John Elway about the new coach's acceptance of Tim Tebow. John said, "I don't think that's going to happen. If it does then maybe that coach isn't the right person for the job."

Add to John's quote about Tebow what Ellis said last night in an interview on Sandy's show. Ellis said (paraphrasing), "I hope and want Tebow to succeed."

To me, it sounds like the Broncos are behind Tebow and dedicated to helping him mature into a great QB. It all depends on how you choose to perceive the comments.

Cito Pelon
01-06-2011, 11:04 AM
What you're missing or what you're choosing to overlook are the comments made by John Elway about the new coach's acceptance of Tim Tebow. John said, "I don't think that's going to happen. If it does then maybe that coach isn't the right person for the job."
Add to John's quote about Tebow what Ellis said last night in an interview on Sandy's show. Ellis said (paraphrasing), "I hope and want Tebow to succeed."

To me, it sounds like the Broncos are behind Tebow and dedicated to helping him mature into a great QB. It all depends on how you choose to perceive the comments.

That was a good quote to support a Tebow is the man argument.

Tombstone RJ
01-06-2011, 11:30 AM
You could slice and dice that a million ways. The bottom line is that 50% is WAY below the elite NFL QBs. It is an important stat, period. The modern NFL game uses the pass to set up the run or as an alternative to the run in certain situations, which is why completion percentages are higher now than they were during Elway's career. Our 3rd down conversion percentage was 32% (12/37) under Tebow. That's why completion percentage matters. Of the top 10

New Orleans 48.8 - Brees 68.1 (1st overall)
New England 48.2 - Brady 65.9 (4th overall)
Atlanta 46.7 - Matt Ryan 62.5 (12th overall)
San Diego 44.9 - Phillip Rivers 66.0 (3rd overall)
Indianapolis 44.6 - Peyton Manning 66.3 (2nd overall)
Pittsburgh 43.1 - Ben Roethlisberger 61.7 (15th overall)
Tampa Bay 42.2 - Josh Freeman 61.4 (17th overall)
Green Bay 41.5 - Aaron Rogers 65.7 (6th overall)
Houston 41.1 - Matt Schaub 63.6 (8th overall)
Dallas 40.8 - Jon Kitna 65.7 (5th overall)

So of the top 10 offenses at converting 3rd downs, not 1 QB was in the 50s in completion percentage. The average overall rank of those QBs in completion percentage was 7. And 6 of those teams were are in the playoffs with San Diego and Tampa Bay only 1 game away.

It matters.

Never said it didn't matter, I just said it's not the end-all, be-all of judging a QB. You are correct in that the league is catering more to the passing offense (DBs are flagged way more for incedental contact) but just like QB rating, it's a stat that can be over emphasized if not put into its proper context.

Tebow has work to do no doubt, but so does every rookie QB not named Dan Marino that comes into the NFL.

Oh, and BTW, Dan Marino's career completion percentage is a whopping 59.4%.

bloodsunday
01-06-2011, 11:53 AM
Then why is your POV on the conversation so skewed?

It's not skewed. It seems skewed because I am having to defend my position, which is to keep both of them. I defend that position by suggesting that Orton's numbers are fine and that Tebow's show a need to improve. You interpret that as me saying I don't like Tebow.

Orton may only be a polished Turd in the eyes of some, but he's won a lot of NFL games. There's a reason that Denver thinks they can garner a 2nd round pick for him -- and it's not because he sucks.

TheReverend
01-06-2011, 11:55 AM
It's not skewed. It seems skewed because I am having to defend my position, which is to keep both of them. I defend that position by suggesting that Orton's numbers are fine and that Tebow's show a need to improve. You interpret that as me saying I don't like Tebow.

Orton may only be a polished Turd in the eyes of some, but he's won a lot of NFL games. There's a reason that Denver thinks they can garner a 2nd round pick for him -- and it's not because he sucks.

I agree with your keeping him position, but I vehemently disagree that he can garner a 2nd. I will literally dance for 2 days straight if we can get a 2nd round pick for Kyle Orton.

bloodsunday
01-06-2011, 11:55 AM
Oh, and BTW, Dan Marino's career completion percentage is a whopping 59.4%.

Come on man. Different era. That's not different than quoting Elway's. Elway's completion % was 60% after Reeves.

bloodsunday
01-06-2011, 11:58 AM
I agree with your keeping him position, but I vehemently disagree that he can garner a 2nd. I will literally dance for 2 days straight if we can get a 2nd round pick for Kyle Orton.

I doubt we get a 2nd pick either. But the reason Denver can even entertain that thought is because he is not, by definition, a turd. He's an experienced QB capable of winning NFL games and well liked by his teammates. That's all I'm saying.

bloodsunday
01-06-2011, 12:01 PM
If he doesn't improve and the team is horrible, we can use the next top 5 pick on another QB. It isn't like Orton will make us any better. The guy is horrible. He was outplayed by a project rookie... Not that this needs argued. Elway has made it pretty clear that Tebow will be starting. He said if the next coach doesn't want Tebow, he probably isn't the coach they want.

Here is where we part ways. I don't want to keep picking in the Top 5 and chasing the next sexy QB every year. That's a bad recipe.

If you think Orton doesn't make us better and that somehow he's linked to the reason that we sucked this year, then you just don't know football. Orton had a legit shot at being a Pro Bowl alternate (which is good considering the company that occupies the top 3 spots) had we not derailed things by firing McD and putting in Tebow.

TheReverend
01-06-2011, 12:04 PM
Here is where we part ways. I don't want to keep picking in the Top 5 and chasing the next sexy QB every year. That's a bad recipe.

If you think Orton doesn't make us better and that somehow he's linked to the reason that we sucked this year, then you just don't know football. Orton had a legit shot at being a Pro Bowl alternate (which is good considering the company that occupies the top 3 spots) had we not derailed things by firing McD and putting in Tebow.

By definition he didn't make us better... What games were you watching?

jhns
01-06-2011, 12:16 PM
Here is where we part ways. I don't want to keep picking in the Top 5 and chasing the next sexy QB every year. That's a bad recipe.

If you think Orton doesn't make us better and that somehow he's linked to the reason that we sucked this year, then you just don't know football. Orton had a legit shot at being a Pro Bowl alternate (which is good considering the company that occupies the top 3 spots) had we not derailed things by firing McD and putting in Tebow.

I don't know football and you are endorsing Orton as making this team better. The guy who got outplayed by a project rookie QB...

You need to learn to look past yards. Orton was horrible any time the game was close, in the red zone, and on 3rd downs. We will never be a good team with Orton under center.

TheReverend
01-06-2011, 12:19 PM
I don't know football and you are endorsing Orton as making this team better. The guy who got outplayed by a project rookie QB...

You need to learn to look past yards. Orton was horrible any time the game was close, in the red zone, and on 3rd downs. We will never be a good team with Orton under center.

Actually, Tebow was superior there, too.

Orton netted 288.5 yards per game.

Tebow netted 293.7 yards per game.

jhns
01-06-2011, 12:24 PM
Actually, Tebow was superior there, too.

Orton netted 288.5 yards per game.

Tebow netted 293.7 yards per game.

Yeah, I just meant that yards don't mean Orton played well. Garbage time stats are for fantasy football nerds.

We are so close to being back on the right track. The only thing left to do is run Orton and Ellis out of town.

jhns
01-06-2011, 12:29 PM
I will add that I think Orton would be a great backup. I just don't think it would be worth keeping him at that price if it costs us other players like Champ. I would rather spend the money on good starters.

bloodsunday
01-06-2011, 01:28 PM
We are so close to being back on the right track. The only thing left to do is run Orton and Ellis out of town.

We had one of the 5 worst defenses of all time. We were 26th in the league running the football. We were 31st in the league stopping the run.

But man if ONLY we had played Tebow sooner to push us over the top!

Like I said, you don't know football. I would say we are as far off track as this organization has EVER been. We just got turned down by a coach no one around here even wanted!

jhns
01-06-2011, 01:33 PM
We had one of the 5 worst defenses of all time. We were 26th in the league running the football. We were 31st in the league stopping the run.

But man if ONLY we had played Tebow sooner to push us over the top!

Like I said, you don't know football. I would say we are as far off track as this organization has EVER been. We just got turned down by a coach no one around here even wanted!

I don't know football as you are claiming a QB that was outplayed by a project rookie is a good one.

LOL

TheReverend
01-06-2011, 01:40 PM
We had one of the 5 worst defenses of all time. We were 26th in the league running the football. We were 31st in the league stopping the run.

But man if ONLY we had played Tebow sooner to push us over the top!

Like I said, you don't know football. I would say we are as far off track as this organization has EVER been. We just got turned down by a coach no one around here even wanted!

Rushing:
Orton 90 ypg #30 in the NFL
Tebow 126 ypg #8 in the NFL

And Mularkey didn't turn us down btw.