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View Full Version : Anyone else getting this sh*t from Tebow haters too?


Doggcow
01-03-2011, 12:40 AM
"Tim Tebow's Rushing yards don't count"
-Why not? They're still yards. They still count in the stats. These are generally the kids sucking off vick too.

"Rushing TD's don't count for Tebow"
- What the ****? Why not? THEY COUNT FOR 6 POINTS ON THE BOARD? They count for RB's? Just because he has an element to his game that a lot of people don't, it "doesn't count"? Jagoff.


"Tebow's only completing 50% of his passes, and he played against houston!"
- He played against SD #1 pass d, and Oakland #5 pass d... too...

"Tebow couldn't beat Oakland/SD"
-He did a damn fine job of keeping us in the game single handedly though.

loborugger
01-03-2011, 12:47 AM
I dont argue with folks on the interwebz too much, so no.

As a new converted Tebow supporter, I share your enthusiasm. He is the only reason I watched the last 3 games this season. Kids got fire & wants to win. He is the freshly stamped face of the franchise.

Saying all that, let the haters hate. Not much else you can. Kid seems like a winner. He does have some issue. However, the kid is a rook. Doesnt anyone cut a rook a little slack any more. Your points are valid as are theirs. Dont get too wrapped up in it.

The worst thing about Tebow starting the season in game 13 is that we now have to wait 9 months to watch him again. I hope and pray for good things. Until then, I dont plan on arguing with the haters.

Doggcow
01-03-2011, 12:49 AM
Not on the internet... I know Seahawks fans are about as retarded as they come, so I understand the assumption though :)

Archer81
01-03-2011, 12:51 AM
I have a feeling we will be hearing these arguments for awhile. Tebow is a unique quarterback. He presents multiple problems for defenses. Build a competent defense and get him a security blanket TE and either a big back or a pure speed RB and watch his development. Its going to be fun, which is something the team has been lacking for awhile now.

:Broncos:

loborugger
01-03-2011, 12:55 AM
I have a feeling we will be hearing these arguments for awhile. Tebow is a unique quarterback. He presents multiple problems for defenses. Build a competent defense and get him a security blanket TE and either a big back or a pure speed RB and watch his development. Its going to be fun, which is something the team has been lacking for awhile now.

:Broncos:

Ya.

The kid is like Vick in the ATL before the dogs and all that. Where Vick got all wrapped up in himself and Ron Mexico and got lazy, I dont think Tebow will. And look at Vick now that the dude has his feces amalgamated - or at least a lot more together than he ever did in Atlanta. He is on fire. If anyone can turn his unique talents into something special, its a humble hardworking person like Tebow.

Cito Pelon
01-03-2011, 12:55 AM
There's a lot of ignorant people around. The people I know consider Tebow pretty dang good.

Doggcow
01-03-2011, 01:04 AM
I think people just want to hate Tebow, because his potential is limitless.

broncocalijohn
01-03-2011, 01:05 AM
I think most Broncos fans know he needs to get his passing game in order and we are willing to give it some time since he is a rookie. There is potential to be a superstar in the NFL. With Orton, he might be manageable but is there excitement building behind him for a 4-12 team? No way! Seems Tebow has done his thing since High School and he beats the criticism put upon him. Not too many fans of ****ty teams are excited about the offseason but I know we are.

Cito Pelon
01-03-2011, 01:07 AM
If I was an NFL player I would love to be on the team with Tebow.

Kaylore
01-03-2011, 06:57 AM
This is what Vick haters hear and he has the Eagles in the playoffs at home so who cares? They can talk about how their yards and TD's "don't count" while their team is at home.

RunSilentRunDeep
01-03-2011, 07:19 AM
Your answer is, "Yes, Tebow sucked yesterday but it a good learning experience. Oh by the way, he generated more yards and points than Peyton Manning did against the same defense -- but with two fewer interceptions"

jhns
01-03-2011, 07:44 AM
You should see if they thought Orton was any good. Tebow the rookie has us scoring more points while not having McDaniels game plans. Tebow gets it done.

Anyways, who cares what haters say? They don't matter. Just point and laugh at them.

TotallyScrewed
01-03-2011, 07:57 AM
There's a lot of ignorant people around. The people I know consider Tebow pretty dang good.

So you're saying that the ignorant people you know consider Tebow pretty dang good?!?!









J/K

Steve Sewell
01-03-2011, 07:57 AM
I have a feeling we will be hearing these arguments for awhile. Tebow is a unique quarterback. He presents multiple problems for defenses. Build a competent defense and get him a security blanket TE and either a big back or a pure speed RB and watch his development. Its going to be fun, which is something the team has been lacking for awhile now.

:Broncos:

I agree wholeheartedly.

I think Tebow (and the Broncos) would thrive by building a solid defense and emphasizing the running game. I don't think Tebow is ever going to be a 65% completion short passing game manager type. He has a GREAT deep ball and an ability to improvise and move the chains on his own. Surround him with a solid supporting cast focused on running and stopping the run while making 2-3 big plays in the passing game, and you've got a Broncos team that will be very difficult to play against.

Heck, if the Broncos had any sort of competent defense, they would have crushed San Diego yesterday.

TotallyScrewed
01-03-2011, 08:02 AM
Here's the thing for me...

1) In year's past, we thought we knew what we had going int the next season but radical changes changed that.

2) We don't even know who the coach or complete FO is going to be or whether they will like Tebow.

3) Tebow has had a very small sample size of NFL experience. The kid needs to work on some things and every QB does.

4) It's a long offseason and who really gives a crap what other fans think?!?! Are they ever more correct than we are? No way. Not that we're correct either. It is a moron who takes advise from a horses' ass.

TonyR
01-03-2011, 08:06 AM
I haven't been getting any business from "Tebow haters". I love Tebow and think he's a great kid with off the charts intangibles. He's a great football player but don't think he's a very good QB yet. His long term future cannot be running the way he did yesterday. He has to develop a passing game to be the long term answer at QB for the Broncos.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 08:18 AM
I haven't been getting any business from "Tebow haters". I love Tebow and think he's a great kid with off the charts intangibles. He's a great football player but don't think he's a very good QB yet. His long term future cannot be running the way he did yesterday. He has to develop a passing game to be the long term answer at QB for the Broncos.

Ahhhh sanity but only at post #16.... The main's tebowner is lasting longer than 4hrs and doc should be consulted.

Mile High Shack
01-03-2011, 08:21 AM
I'm just letting it roll off my back, for some reason, people either love or hate Tebow.

I HATED the draft pick, I mean hated, with a passion, I thought Tebow would be a great Tight End in the NFL, that's it.

These last 3 games have changed my mind about him...like I keep saying
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mmBw3uzPnJI/S_5IHGcf5II/AAAAAAABSjk/9PsNThMctCM/s1600/Haters_Gonna_Hate_03.jpg

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 08:29 AM
I'm just letting it roll off my back, for some reason, people either love or hate Tebow.

I HATED the draft pick, I mean hated, with a passion, I thought Tebow would be a great Tight End in the NFL, that's it.

These last 3 games have changed my mind about him...like I keep saying
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mmBw3uzPnJI/S_5IHGcf5II/AAAAAAABSjk/9PsNThMctCM/s1600/Haters_Gonna_Hate_03.jpg

You had me at the first two lines cause that is exactly where I was. But please attempt to articulate what you saw in 3 starts that shows a) he is going to be player that can take us to the next level and b) that he was effectively worth the draft compensation of a Brandon Marshall.

I see an overwhelming desperational latch-on by a fan base where Tebow is the first thing that that looks even remotely positive after watching moves that continually only looked like steps in the wrong direction... Understandable from the general fan base but really shocking for the Mane, at least at these levels.

Mile High Shack
01-03-2011, 08:35 AM
You had me at the first two lines cause that is exactly where I was. But please attempt to articulate what you saw in 3 starts that shows a) he is going to be player that can take us to the next level and b) that he was effectively worth the draft compensation of a Brandon Marshall.

he's had 3 starts in the NFL, THREE, that's it. He's only going to get better, so far in THREE NFL starts he's

40/84 for 651 4 TDs 3 INTs 199 yards rushing and 3 rushing TDs

for a guy that has only started 3 NFL games in his career, that's a pretty promising start

look at what Sam Bradford did last night, against the 30th ranked defense in the NFL, the learning curve for a rookie QB is huge.

then there is the factor of his passion and his work ethic, there is nothing that has scared me away from Tebow right now, he will continue to work and get better. I'm a converted hater

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 08:53 AM
he's had 3 starts in the NFL, THREE, that's it. He's only going to get better, so far in THREE NFL starts he's

40/84 for 651 4 TDs 3 INTs 199 yards rushing and 3 rushing TDs

for a guy that has only started 3 NFL games in his career, that's a pretty promising start

look at what Sam Bradford did last night, against the 30th ranked defense in the NFL, the learning curve for a rookie QB is huge.

then there is the factor of his passion and his work ethic, there is nothing that has scared me away from Tebow right now, he will continue to work and get better. I'm a converted hater

How about explaining what you saw in game situations, not stats that made you a believer. I dont want to read a stat line from a QB who in 3 games basically where the game was nearly over by the half each time (well 2 of them).

Lets not kid ourselves about each of the 3 performances.

Against OAK, the D gets 3 TOs in OAK territory in the first half. The initial 40yd TD run is a bit of a fluke and catches OAK off guard. Solid performance considering the circumstances but nothing than noting the Tebow is certainly different, and at a minimum, entertaining.

Against HOU, the offense does **** in the 1st half where Tebow mostly tries to be a pocket passer. Realizing that in the 2nd half, we resort to basically Gator football with mostly shotgun and little screen passes with several designed runs against a POROUS D. And give the kid credit, we won because of his 2nd half and the D saving the day with a late pick.

And finally yesterday, where through 3 quarters, the game thread and any honest observer sees a TERRIBLE performance. And much like the HOU game, once the OC decides run more of a Gator offense late in the 3rd with several design runs and short passes out of the shotgun, we put together a couple of late scores to make the score look much closer than what anyone who watched the game would tell you.

I see a QB who isnt anytime soon going to be able to stand back in the pocket and beat any team. To be successful, they will have to employ more of what he did at FLA with several designed runs. And as I posted in other threads, it will be fun to watch Tebow for a few year run (5 tops). In that window I see contending for division titles but nothing more than getting past the WC round. Then after about 5 years of all these games with 10 or so runs by Tebow, the beating takes its toll and his career effectively ends prematurely.

Some of you may just be perfectly happy with that 5 year scenario. I am not b/c we will probably drag it out to 7yrs where the last 2 are a waste.

bronco militia
01-03-2011, 08:56 AM
before the interwebs, fans and media used to talk **** about elway until he finally won a SuperBowl.

get used to it

Old Dude
01-03-2011, 08:59 AM
he's had 3 starts in the NFL, THREE, that's it. He's only going to get better, so far in THREE NFL starts he's

40/84 for 651 4 TDs 3 INTs 199 yards rushing and 3 rushing TDs

for a guy that has only started 3 NFL games in his career, that's a pretty promising start

look at what Sam Bradford did last night, against the 30th ranked defense in the NFL, the learning curve for a rookie QB is huge.

then there is the factor of his passion and his work ethic, there is nothing that has scared me away from Tebow right now, he will continue to work and get better. I'm a converted hater


I haven't decided if I'm a Tebow hater or not, because I'm too busy hating our defense. I only have so much hate to go around and the worst D in the NFL is keeping it pretty busy.

Mile High Shack
01-03-2011, 09:00 AM
How about explaining what you saw in game situations, not stats that made you a believer. I dont want to read a stat line from a QB who in 3 games basically where the game was nearly over by the half each time (well 2 of them).

Lets not kid ourselves about each of the 3 performances.

Against OAK, the D gets 3 TOs in OAK territory in the first half. The initial 40yd TD run is a bit of a fluke and catches OAK off guard. Solid performance considering the circumstances but nothing than noting the Tebow is certainly different, and at a minimum, entertaining.

Against HOU, the offense does **** in the 1st half where Tebow mostly tries to be a pocket passer. Realizing that in the 2nd half, we resort to basically Gator football with mostly shotgun and little screen passes with several designed runs against a POROUS D. And give the kid credit, we won because of his 2nd half and the D saving the day with a late pick.

And finally yesterday, where through 3 quarters, the game thread and any honest observer sees a TERRIBLE performance. And much like the HOU game, once the OC decides run more of a Gator offense late in the 3rd with several design runs and short passes out of the shotgun, we put together a couple of late scores to make the score look much closer than what anyone who watched the game would tell you.

I see a QB who isnt anytime soon going to be able to stand back in the pocket and beat any team. To be successful, they will have to employ more of what he did at FLA with several designed runs. And as I posted in other threads, it will be fun to watch Tebow for a few year run (5 tops). In that window I see contending for division titles but nothing more than getting past the WC round. Then after about 5 years of all these games with 10 or so runs by Tebow, the beating takes its toll and his career effectively ends prematurely.

Some of you may just be perfectly happy with that 5 year scenario. I am not b/c we will probably drag it out to 7yrs where the last 2 are a waste.

it's a free country and you can chose to see the negative if you wish, I for one see a kid, when the game is on the line, steps his game up

He's got something you can't coach and that something is going to make him a pretty good QB

Mile High Shack
01-03-2011, 09:01 AM
I haven't decided if I'm a Tebow hater or not, because I'm too busy hating our defense. I only have so much hate to go around and the worst D in the NFL is keeping it pretty busy.

pretty much the worst defense in modern day professional football......when you are ranked in almost every category dead last, it's time to hit cntrl + alt + del on the defense

Phantom
01-03-2011, 09:03 AM
First QB (evarrr) to have a Rushing TD in each of his first three starts. (Two QBs did it in their first 2 starts). Soooo, there is that..... :afro:

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 09:04 AM
it's a free country and you can chose to see the negative if you wish, I for one see a kid, when the game is on the line, steps his game up

He's got something you can't coach and that something is going to make him a pretty good QB

How about a honest attempt for a take on what I posted? :wave:

Dont put up some **** about haters gonna hate but then when someone backs it up, you come back with that.

Mile High Shack
01-03-2011, 09:07 AM
Sam Bradford's first 3 NFL starts

69/117 655 4 TDs 5 INTs 2 yards rushing

I'm not comparing the two, b/c I think Sam Bradford is going to be a better QB, but I'm just pointing out that rookies struggle

Mile High Shack
01-03-2011, 09:09 AM
How about a honest attempt for a take on what I posted? :wave:

Dont put up some **** about haters gonna hate but then when someone backs it up, you come back with that.

stats are stats, like I said, you can break down every single throw and criticize, but the last 2 games, when the game was on the line, Tebow was money

I'll take his first 3 rookie games against any other rookie QB

does he have work to do? yes, do I think he will get better? yes

what more can I say, sure some of his passes were off, but again, he's still learning, he won't be an all star in 3 starts

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 09:11 AM
stats are stats, like I said, you can break down every single throw and criticize, but the last 2 games, when the game was on the line, Tebow was money

I'll take his first 3 rookie games against any other rookie QB

does he have work to do? yes, do I think he will get better? yes

what more can I say, sure some of his passes were off, but again, he's still learning, he won't be an all star in 3 starts

Would I surmise your response correctly as you think the spread offense with 10 or so Tebow runs per game (aka Gator Football) is going to cut it in the NFL? How many playoff appearances are we going make with that???

Rascal
01-03-2011, 09:12 AM
Would I surmise your response correctly as you think the spread offense with 10 or so Tebow runs per game (aka Gator Football) is going to cut it in the NFL? How many playoff appearances are we going make with that???

With this defense it doesn't matter what Tebow does.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 09:14 AM
With this defense it doesn't matter what Tebow does.

No disagreement there. We need 9 new starters on D and 10 b/c I the boat has left on Champ unfortunately. But that isnt the point of this thread.

There are Tebow haters for who he is, but I am looking at what I see on the field and how it best translates to W's.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-03-2011, 09:18 AM
Would I surmise your response correctly as you think the spread offense with 10 or so Tebow runs per game (aka Gator Football) is going to cut it in the NFL? How many playoff appearances are we going make with that???

Your Houston "gator football" second half comment is ****ing absurd on a few levels. 1) He was throwing the ball all over the field that game. Shall we remember his 50 yard strike to Gaffney and the 20 yard comebacks to lloyd? How about that throw to lloyd on the last drive where he escaped the pocket and showed off the arm? 2) Who the **** cares how the broncos scored points against houston, THEY SCORED POINTS. Tebow pretty much put the team on his shoulders and engineered what i think was the biggest broncos comeback ever in a second half (thats what the announcers said anyway).

And we were out of yesterdays game? We were a different bounce off a hail mary away from winning it. And he played terribly all game and still found a way to get us back in it (he looked nice that last drive) Under Tebow, i think the offense scored 24,24,21 points. You give him a competent defense in there, he's gonna win some games. And its only his 3rd ****ing start. cripes.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 09:22 AM
Your Houston "gator football" second half comment is ****ing absurd on a few levels. 1) He was throwing the ball all over the field that game. Shall we remember his 50 yard strike to Gaffney and the 20 yard comebacks to lloyd? How about that throw to lloyd on the last drive where he escaped the pocket and showed off the arm? 2) Who the **** cares how the broncos scored points against houston, THEY SCORED POINTS. Tebow pretty much put the team on his shoulders and engineered what i think was the biggest broncos comeback ever in a second half (thats what the announcers said anyway).

And we were out of yesterdays game? We were a different bounce off a hail mary away from winning it. And he played terribly all game and still found a way to get us back in it (he looked nice that last drive) Under Tebow, i think the offense scored 24,24,21 points. You give him a competent defense in there, he's gonna win some games. And its only his 3rd ****ing start. cripes.

So perhaps you didnt read the part where I said I saw them contending for division titles with Tebow for the next 5 years or so?

And bullshiaat on Gator ball in the HOU game. Did Tebow NEVER throw it deep at FLA. No, it was just rare and it wasnt how they attacked their opponents.

And yes, we were out of the game yesterday for nearly a full 3/4ths of it. Dont kid yourself. If SD is little more effective with TDs instead of FGs, the 26-7 is much uglier.

Mile High Shack
01-03-2011, 09:24 AM
So perhaps you didnt read the part where I said I saw them contending for division titles with Tebow for the next 5 years or so?

And bullshiaat on Gator ball in the HOU game. Did Tebow NEVER throw it deep at FLA. No, it was just rare and it wasnt how they attacked their opponents.

put the Utah game on and you will see you are wrong

Rascal
01-03-2011, 09:24 AM
No disagreement there. We need 9 new starters on D and 10 b/c I the boat has left on Champ unfortunately. But that isnt the point of this thread.

There are Tebow haters for who he is, but I am looking at what I see on the field and how it best translates to W's.

I think it's pretty obvious he is a leader and has an incredible drive to improve himself and his team. The team has rallied around him and his energy has gone to other players. In clutch situations he has stepped up and performed admirably. Far better than his predecessor, Kyle Orton.

He makes some wrong reads and has a tendency to lock onto WRs, but it's his third start and as he gets more experience he improve in those areas.

I don't think he will turn into a Brady, Manning, or Brees. But I think he can be a top 10 QB stat wise who performs well under clutch situations.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 09:26 AM
put the Utah game on and you will see you are wrong

No thanks, I'll take the balance of all of his performances in college.

jhns
01-03-2011, 09:26 AM
How about explaining what you saw in game situations, not stats that made you a believer. I dont want to read a stat line from a QB who in 3 games basically where the game was nearly over by the half each time (well 2 of them).

Lets not kid ourselves about each of the 3 performances.

Against OAK, the D gets 3 TOs in OAK territory in the first half. The initial 40yd TD run is a bit of a fluke and catches OAK off guard. Solid performance considering the circumstances but nothing than noting the Tebow is certainly different, and at a minimum, entertaining.

Against HOU, the offense does **** in the 1st half where Tebow mostly tries to be a pocket passer. Realizing that in the 2nd half, we resort to basically Gator football with mostly shotgun and little screen passes with several designed runs against a POROUS D. And give the kid credit, we won because of his 2nd half and the D saving the day with a late pick.

And finally yesterday, where through 3 quarters, the game thread and any honest observer sees a TERRIBLE performance. And much like the HOU game, once the OC decides run more of a Gator offense late in the 3rd with several design runs and short passes out of the shotgun, we put together a couple of late scores to make the score look much closer than what anyone who watched the game would tell you.

I see a QB who isnt anytime soon going to be able to stand back in the pocket and beat any team. To be successful, they will have to employ more of what he did at FLA with several designed runs. And as I posted in other threads, it will be fun to watch Tebow for a few year run (5 tops). In that window I see contending for division titles but nothing more than getting past the WC round. Then after about 5 years of all these games with 10 or so runs by Tebow, the beating takes its toll and his career effectively ends prematurely.

Some of you may just be perfectly happy with that 5 year scenario. I am not b/c we will probably drag it out to 7yrs where the last 2 are a waste.

Wow....

Oakland was his first game and they put in a pathetic game plan. Tebow still played great doing what they asked him to. They are also a good defense. The run wasn't a fluke either. He just ran all over a top defense. I would say he has proven that he can run at this level...

Against Houston, we ran most of the screens in the first half and hardly threw any in the second half. What are you watching? Tebow was making great down field throws that game. He brought the team back from down by 17. He won the game for us....

You are complaining that he is inconsistent.... He is a rookie..

The rest of your post is you just being a hater. It is all speculation and it is all guessing that he can't improve at all as a passer. Then you go on to speculate that he will also have a short career because of the way he plays. Like there aren't guys like Vick. As if there aren't other players that have 10+ year careers while taking beatings. Why don't we just stop questioning his toughness and how long his body will last until he gives us a reason to question it?

Anyways, it is still funny to me how much people were on Ortons nuts all season. We have scored more in every game Tebow has started than what our season average with Orton was. I would say Tebow has already proven he can play the position. Now he just needs time to improve on what he's doing. He has proven he can make every NFL throw. He just neeeds some time in a system so that he knows exactly where everyone is at all times.

Mile High Shack
01-03-2011, 09:26 AM
No thanks, I'll take the balance of all of his performances in college.

then don't say a qualifier like NEVER when it's complete BS

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 09:30 AM
then don't say a qualifier like NEVER when it's complete BS

I posted in reference to someone talking about 2-3 specific deep throws in the HOU game and someone oversimplified my take as that FLA didn't throw it deep. They did, but it wasnt how they attacked their opponents primarily.

Peoples Champ
01-03-2011, 09:32 AM
give it time

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 09:32 AM
Wow....

Against Houston, we ran most of the screens in the first half and hardly threw any in the second half. What are you watching? Tebow was making great down field throws that game. He brought the team back from down by 17. He won the game for us....



Actually the number of screens in the 1st half and 2nd were relatively similar. The yardage gained on screens in the 2nd half was MUCH higher.

Rascal
01-03-2011, 09:32 AM
I posted in reference to someone talking about 2-3 specific deep throws in the HOU game and someone oversimplified my take as that FLA didn't throw it deep. They did, but it wasnt how they attacked their opponents primarily.

lol

You said "Tebow NEVER threw it deep in FLA"

You are obviously wrong as the game tape against Utah shows otherwise. Admit you were wrong, like a man, and move on.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 09:35 AM
Then you go on to speculate that he will also have a short career because of the way he plays. Like there aren't guys like Vick. As if there aren't other players that have 10+ year careers while taking beatings. Why don't we just stop questioning his toughness and how long his body will last until he gives us a reason to question it?

So your telling you can cite several examples of NFL QBs that have made it in the mold of Tebow? Could Tebow be the first guy to run it 10+ times a game and make a career of it? With a potential 18 game schedule coming and a clear change in the size and speed of players compared to you whomever you are going to cite outside of Vick? ROFL!

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 09:36 AM
lol

You said "Tebow NEVER threw it deep in FLA"

You are obviously wrong as the game tape against Utah shows otherwise. Admit you were wrong, like a man, and move on.

Actually you missed the answer by one word!! :wave:

"Did Tebow NEVER throw it deep? No,..." is how it went or at least how it was intended. Havent finished the first cup of coffee this morning.

Rascal
01-03-2011, 09:36 AM
FACT: Denver has scored ~4.5 more points per game under Tebow than Kyle Orton. For a rookie QB to come in, with the worst defense in the league and one of the worst rushing offenses in the league, and do that gives me hope for the future.

jhns
01-03-2011, 09:38 AM
Actually the number of screens in the 1st half and 2nd were relatively similar. The yardage gained on screens in the 2nd half was MUCH higher.

Actually, we threw a lot more screens in the first half. About twice as many in fact....

Its alright though. Who needs a real analysis when you can make **** up? I really hope you thought Orton was horrible because he has been outplayed by a project rookie.

Rascal
01-03-2011, 09:43 AM
So your telling you can cite several examples of NFL QBs that have made it in the mold of Tebow? Could Tebow be the first guy to run it 10+ times a game and make a career of it? With a potential 18 game schedule coming and a clear change in the size and speed of players compared to you whomever you are going to cite outside of Vick? ROFL!

Tebow will have to adjust his game. Nobody denies that. I would say his rushing totals this season are more of an indication at how inept our run game is than his qualities as a QB.

BTW, a similar QB would be Randall Cunningham. Although he may be too old for you.

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 09:44 AM
How about a honest attempt for a take on what I posted? :wave:

Dont put up some **** about haters gonna hate but then when someone backs it up, you come back with that.

An honest take? How about you be honest. The kid had multiple throws from the pocket in each game that were NFL throws.

Of course he thrived when we got him moving around more. That's what he is used to. We can't expect him to step up and be able to complete timing throws when he's had minimal practice doing it. He hasn't been the starter and when he finally was the starter we had a lame duck coaching staff. Nobody is denying the kid needs work but all that negativity won't change that he did a lot of good things too.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 09:45 AM
Actually, we threw a lot more screens in the first half. About twice as many in fact....

Its alright though. Who needs a real analysis when you can make **** up? I really hope you thought Orton was horrible because he has been outplayed by a project rookie.

How far does the WR need to run before you dont call it a screen anymore?

jhns
01-03-2011, 09:48 AM
So your telling you can cite several examples of NFL QBs that have made it in the mold of Tebow? Could Tebow be the first guy to run it 10+ times a game and make a career of it? With a potential 18 game schedule coming and a clear change in the size and speed of players compared to you whomever you are going to cite outside of Vick? ROFL!

Who says that is going to be Tebows career? There have been multiple QBs that started their careers running a lot and ended passing from the pocket. Vick is running all over at age 30 and he isn't near Tebows size. Tebow has also been clearly learning to go down or out of bounds to avoid big hits. He had one big hit on him last game and that was a designed run in which we needed to convert.

The real question is, how many times have you seen Tebow unable to handle a full NFL season while playing like he does?

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 09:50 AM
Tebow will have to adjust his game. Nobody denies that. I would say his rushing totals this season are more of an indication at how inept our run game is than his qualities as a QB.

BTW, a similar QB would be Randall Cunningham. Although he may be too old for you.

Probably older than you but that doesnt really matter. Of course I remember Randall Cunningham. And that is probably as good a comp as there is, although Randall runs more like Vick does - relying on avoiding contact as opposed to Tebow who is going to lower his shoulder.

Maybe I dont remember but you could remind me how many playoff games Randall won? Probably not zero but it wasnt many

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 09:51 AM
Who says that is going to be Tebows career? There have been multiple QBs that started their careers running a lot and ended passing from the pocket. Vick is running all over at age 30 and he isn't near Tebows size. Tebow has also been clearly learning to go down or out of bounds to avoid big hits. He had one big hit on him last game and that was a designed run in which we needed to convert.

The real question is, how many times have you seen Tebow unable to handle a full NFL season while playing like he does?

As usual, Jhns goes to the straw man argument. Consistent play.

jhns
01-03-2011, 09:55 AM
How far does the WR need to run before you dont call it a screen anymore?

How far the receiver runs doesn't matter. I'm not sure you know what a screen is with a line like that. We ran something like 9 screens in the first half of that game. It was almost every throw in the first half. We went to throwing down the field in the second half. We didn't let the d-linemen go unblocked all the time and didn't have set blockers running out infront of those receivers when we started throwing down the field more. We didn't run nearly as many screens in the second half of that game.

jhns
01-03-2011, 09:57 AM
As usual, Jhns goes to the straw man argument. Consistent play.

No, it is called reality. Tebow isn't some other guy that didn't last in the league. Tebow is Tebow...

What, like your imaginary "he won't last because I say so" is any better? Or maybe the "he can't improve as a passer, no QB ever does that!"...

Steve Sewell
01-03-2011, 09:59 AM
Some folks are talking like Tebow has reached his full potential and won't develop any further...like what you see now is what you'll get for his entire career.

The last 3 games are just a glimpse. They gameplanned to his current strengths and he did well in those gameplans when you consider that he is a rookie.

However, in those games he made some top level NFL caliber throws that tell me that he hasn't even scratched the surface of what he's capable of. Several of the deep outs and comebacks that he threw tell me that he's got the arm strength and accuracy that will only improve as he refines his mechanics and footwork. His deep ball is already NFL caliber, IMO.

Now add to that his intangibles, athleticism, and ability to make plays and he looks to me like he'll be a very successful NFL QB with a proper supporting cast. For the first time in a VERY long time (since Elway) I had the feeling that we were "in the game" the last few weeks regardless of the deficit.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 10:05 AM
How far the receiver runs doesn't matter. I'm not sure you know what a screen is with a line like that. We ran something like 9 screens in the first half of that game. It was almost every throw in the first half. We went to throwing down the field in the second half. We didn't let the d-linemen go unblocked all the time and didn't have set blockers running out infront of those receivers when we started throwing down the field more. We didn't run nearly as many screens in the second half of that game.

Per the game log on ESPN:
1st qtr: 5
2nd qtr: 4
3rd qtr: 4
4th qtr: 8

jhns
01-03-2011, 10:05 AM
The simple fact is Tebow has shown he can develope into a good passing QB. He has shown that he can make every NFL throw in his first three starts. He has shown that he is great at extending plays and even looks down the field while scrambling, as a rookie. That is impressive as most young mobile QBs take a long time to learn that. He has already brought the team back late in two games and won one of them. He has shown that he gets better as the game goes on. He has a 300 yard passing game in his first three starts...

Lastly, the offense has scored like 25 points a game with a rookie Tebow starting. That would make us a top 10 offense right now, with rookie Tebow. End of discussion. Tebow gets it done. Your opinion doesn't matter because this is a fact.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 10:06 AM
No, it is called reality. Tebow isn't some other guy that didn't last in the league. Tebow is Tebow...

What, like your imaginary "he won't last because I say so" is any better? Or maybe the "he can't improve as a passer, no QB ever does that!"...

So you're advocating a precedent setting type of player. He very well could be. But the odds are that he isnt because there never has been anyone quite like him. Could, possibly, maybe, be reason for that

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 10:08 AM
The simple fact is Tebow has shown he can develope into a good passing QB. He has shown that he can make every NFL throw in his first three starts. He has shown that he is great at extending plays and even looks down the field while scrambling, as a rookie. That is impressive as most young mobile QBs take a long time to learn that. He has already brought the team back late in two games and won one of them. He has shown that he gets better as the game goes on. He has a 300 yard passing game in his first three starts...

Lastly, the offense has scored like 25 points a game with a rookie Tebow starting. That would make us a top 10 offense right now, with rookie Tebow. End of discussion. Tebow gets it done. Your opinion doesn't matter because this is a fact.

Again straw man jhns! I am not knocking that he cant be successful in the short term. And watching him is play is no doubt exciting. But I only see his success predicated on a game with a steady dose of designed runs for him. I see that as career shorting and during a span where he wont put us over the Brady's Manning's and Ben's of the AFC. That is the bottom line.

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 10:09 AM
So your advocating a precedent setting type of player. He very well could be. But the odds are that he isnt because there never has been anyone quite like him. Could, possibly, maybe, be reason for that

He will use his legs while he adjusts to passing more. Like all running QB's do.

jhns
01-03-2011, 10:09 AM
Per the game log on ESPN:
1st qtr: 5
2nd qtr: 4
3rd qtr: 4
4th qtr: 8

I'm looking at it right now. Where exactly does it tell you how many screens were run? Not even the play by play says anything about screens.

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 10:09 AM
Again straw man jhns! I am not knocking that he cant be successful in the short term. And watching him is play is no doubt exciting. But I only see his success predicated on a game with a steady dose of designed runs for him. I see that as career shorting and during a span where he wont put us over the Brady's Manning's and Ben's of the AFC.

Why do you not see him able to throw? He's clearly shown he can make those throws. Do you not believe he can improve?

Rascal
01-03-2011, 10:10 AM
Again straw man jhns! I am not knocking that he cant be successful in the short term. And watching him is play is no doubt exciting. But I only see his success predicated on a game with a steady dose of designed runs for him. I see that as career shorting and during a span where he wont put us over the Brady's Manning's and Ben's of the AFC. That is the bottom line.

Where is the "straw man" coming from in his post?

I don't think it means what you think it means.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 10:11 AM
I'm looking at it right now. Where exactly does it tell you how many screens were run? Not even the play by play says anything about screens.

It classifies the pass/route and yardage.

A fair conclusion is that they were about the same.

Rascal
01-03-2011, 10:11 AM
Probably older than you but that doesnt really matter. Of course I remember Randall Cunningham. And that is probably as good a comp as there is, although Randall runs more like Vick does - relying on avoiding contact as opposed to Tebow who is going to lower his shoulder.

Maybe I dont remember but you could remind me how many playoff games Randall won? Probably not zero but it wasnt many

www.google.com

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 10:14 AM
It classifies the pass/route and yardage.

A fair conclusion is that they were about the same.

I doubt that. Tebow hit a lot of check downs. You're probably counting those. We definitely did not throw 25 screens.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 10:15 AM
Where is the "straw man" coming from in his post?

I don't think it means what you think it means.

Straw man is simply attaching something to your argument that doesnt directly assess what the other person is saying and often asserts a simliar yet unequal position.

The straw man in that the point about what the offense has put up over Orton. Something I havent pointed out in this thread or any other.

jhns
01-03-2011, 10:15 AM
It classifies the pass/route and yardage.

A fair conclusion is that they were about the same.

No it wouldn't....

You clearly have no idea what a screen pass is. Short passes do not equal screen passes...

TailgateNut
01-03-2011, 10:17 AM
No disagreement there. We need 9 new starters on D and 10 b/c I the boat has left on Champ unfortunately. But that isnt the point of this thread.

There are Tebow haters for who he is, but I am looking at what I see on the field and how it best translates to W's.


Can I be both? If any other QB (rookie or not) had tossed those int's yesterday, they would have been boooo'ed off the field.

sonsofkraftybob
01-03-2011, 10:18 AM
I wanted the Pats to draft tebow. Make him Brady's protege. The kid is the real deal.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 10:18 AM
No it wouldn't....

You clearly have no idea what a screen pass is. Short passes do not equal screen passes...

Pretty much every pass in our playbook is some sort of WR/RB/bubble screen pass or a deep bomb. Or have you not been paying attention?

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 10:21 AM
www.google.com

Best I could find:

"The big knock against Randall is that he never won or even made it to a Super Bowl. Moreover, he never distinguished himself in the playoffs. Aside from the stunning loss to Atlanta in the 1998 NFC Championship game, which Gary Anderson and the Vikings D blew, Cunningham's most memorable playoff moment was probably the 1988 Fog Bowl loss to the Bears, where he somehow threw for 407 yards but also threw for three crucial INTs. He was actually benched by Buddy during a 1990 playoff loss to the Redskins."

http://www.slate.com/?id=2070146

bronco militia
01-03-2011, 10:24 AM
Can I be both? If any other QB (rookie or not) had tossed those int's yesterday, they would have been boooo'ed off the field.

which one of these home games did cutler get booed?


http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7760/gamelog;_ylt=An.d3p_Vv8QZ0pGTSNFALdn.uLYF?year=200 6

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 10:26 AM
Can I be both? If any other QB (rookie or not) had tossed those int's yesterday, they would have been boooo'ed off the field.

That is total garbage and you know it.

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 10:27 AM
Pretty much every pass in our playbook is some sort of WR/RB/bubble screen pass or a deep bomb. Or have you not been paying attention?

Obviously you haven't if you think that is true.

peacepipe
01-03-2011, 10:28 AM
Can I be both? If any other QB (rookie or not) had tossed those int's yesterday, they would have been boooo'ed off the field.

somehow if you don't believe Tebow can walk on water or turn water into wine you're suddenly a hater.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 10:29 AM
That is total garbage and you know it.

I do recall some booing at 17-0 going into the half in the Hou game. Probably need to check with jhns though to be sure.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 10:30 AM
Obviously you haven't if you think that is true.

With Tebow in there, that is absolutely true. Moreso than Orton IMO

jhns
01-03-2011, 10:30 AM
Pretty much every pass in our playbook is some sort of WR/RB/bubble screen pass or a deep bomb. Or have you not been paying attention?

Yeah, I'm the one not paying attention. I have the Houston game recorded. Maybe I will count the screens some time and give a real count.

Anyways, the thing I'm not understanding about your argument is why exactly do you think Tebow won't develope more into a passer? He has clearly shown he can make every throw, throw it away, extend plays, and lead. What is missing that would prevent him, even a little, from turning into a great passer?

Mile High Shack
01-03-2011, 10:31 AM
Can I be both? If any other QB (rookie or not) had tossed those int's yesterday, they would have been boooo'ed off the field.

was Elway boo'd off the field?

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00/gamelog/1983/

underrated29
01-03-2011, 10:33 AM
Good running QBs:

Benny Roth
Vick
VY
David Gerrard
Aaron Rodgers
Matt Ryan-to an extent
Tony Romo



Qbs- who take a pounding (sacks) just like being hit while running

Benny Roth
Aaron Rodgers
any QB against the Giants
Tony Romo
Jay Cutler







Now- why dont you tell us again, how Tebow will only last 5 years. Because as of right now-those QBs say you and your theory are full of crap.

Rohirrim
01-03-2011, 10:34 AM
The Mane doesn't allow gray area. You are a lover or a hater. To have the slightest question about Tebow's godhood is sacrilege.

jhns
01-03-2011, 10:34 AM
I do recall some booing at 17-0 going into the half in the Hou game. Probably need to check with jhns though to be sure.

To me, it looked like the play calling is what got booed.

Anyways, he sure didn't get booed off the field for interceptions...

jhns
01-03-2011, 10:36 AM
The Mane doesn't allow gray area. You are a lover or a hater. To have the slightest question about Tebow's godhood is sacrilege.

As it should be.

Mile High Shack
01-03-2011, 10:37 AM
The Mane doesn't allow gray area. You are a lover or a hater. To have the slightest question about Tebow's godhood is sacrilege.

anyone who doesn't have some doubt about Tebow doesn't know football, but I have enough hope to overcome this doubt

Now if he stinks it up in every game next year, then yeah, I will be off the bandwagon

TD4HOF
01-03-2011, 10:38 AM
Can't we just enjoy some hope? *ducks*

TailgateNut
01-03-2011, 10:41 AM
somehow if you don't believe Tebow can walk on water or turn water into wine you're suddenly a hater.

No shiate, just because I didn't like what Tebow cost us during the draft, and just because I want to see him do more than run like a scared chicken when his first read doesn't pan out, and just because I refuse to CROWN him as the next Bronco savior (see previous saviors: Griese, ****ler), I automatically am a hater.

Actually I don't give a flying **** what the TebowNutSackHuggers think. They can live in their mythical make believe world that all will be ok with Tebow at the helm.

jhns
01-03-2011, 10:44 AM
No shiate, just because I didn't like what Tebow cost us during the draft, and just because I want to see him do more than run like a scared chicken when his first read doesn't pan out, and just because I refuse to CROWN him as the next Bronco savior (see previous saviors: Griese, ****ler), I automatically am a hater.

Actually I don't give a flying **** what the TebowNutSackHuggers think. They can live in their mythical make believe world that all will be ok with Tebow at the helm.

First post: "Can't I hate him for who he is and what he does?"

Second post: "No crap, why do people call me a hater?"

Way to make sense...

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-03-2011, 10:45 AM
How about explaining what you saw in game situations, not stats that made you a believer. I dont want to read a stat line from a QB who in 3 games basically where the game was nearly over by the half each time (well 2 of them).

Lets not kid ourselves about each of the 3 performances.

Against OAK, the D gets 3 TOs in OAK territory in the first half. The initial 40yd TD run is a bit of a fluke and catches OAK off guard. Solid performance considering the circumstances but nothing than noting the Tebow is certainly different, and at a minimum, entertaining.

Against HOU, the offense does **** in the 1st half where Tebow mostly tries to be a pocket passer. Realizing that in the 2nd half, we resort to basically Gator football with mostly shotgun and little screen passes with several designed runs against a POROUS D. And give the kid credit, we won because of his 2nd half and the D saving the day with a late pick.

And finally yesterday, where through 3 quarters, the game thread and any honest observer sees a TERRIBLE performance. And much like the HOU game, once the OC decides run more of a Gator offense late in the 3rd with several design runs and short passes out of the shotgun, we put together a couple of late scores to make the score look much closer than what anyone who watched the game would tell you.

I see a QB who isnt anytime soon going to be able to stand back in the pocket and beat any team. To be successful, they will have to employ more of what he did at FLA with several designed runs. And as I posted in other threads, it will be fun to watch Tebow for a few year run (5 tops). In that window I see contending for division titles but nothing more than getting past the WC round. Then after about 5 years of all these games with 10 or so runs by Tebow, the beating takes its toll and his career effectively ends prematurely.

Some of you may just be perfectly happy with that 5 year scenario. I am not b/c we will probably drag it out to 7yrs where the last 2 are a waste.

This is an excellent post, and really well stated. Just so you're aware, you're going to be branded as a blind Tebow hater, even if everything you said was true.

I like Tebow. I want him to be great, and I want him to be great in Denver. I just haven't seen anything from him that makes me believe it's a guarantee.

peacepipe
01-03-2011, 10:46 AM
Thankfully or should I say the FO are more objective about the team then it's base.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 10:52 AM
Good running QBs:

Benny Roth
Vick
VY
David Gerrard
Aaron Rodgers
Matt Ryan-to an extent
Tony Romo



Qbs- who take a pounding (sacks) just like being hit while running

Benny Roth
Aaron Rodgers
any QB against the Giants
Tony Romo
Jay Cutler







Now- why dont you tell us again, how Tebow will only last 5 years. Because as of right now-those QBs say you and your theory are full of crap.


The only player on your list that RELIES on running is Vick. And he doesnt look for contact when he runs. Tebow would be the first of that breed in the modern NFL. I am resting on the precedent that nobody has done it before and there is probably a realistic reason for that.

Steve Sewell
01-03-2011, 10:53 AM
Why do you not see him able to throw? He's clearly shown he can make those throws. Do you not believe he can improve?

That's exactly what he's saying. Its pretty absurd if you think about it. The guy is a rookie with 3 starts under his belt, but hdtech the qb-guru's assessment is that he will never be more than a run and screen pass QB, even though he's shown flashes of being able to make throws that NFL caliber QBs are expected to make (i.e. deep outs)

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 10:55 AM
Yeah, I'm the one not paying attention. I have the Houston game recorded. Maybe I will count the screens some time and give a real count.

Anyways, the thing I'm not understanding about your argument is why exactly do you think Tebow won't develope more into a passer? He has clearly shown he can make every throw, throw it away, extend plays, and lead. What is missing that would prevent him, even a little, from turning into a great passer?

My reply is lost in space...

Basically, I said that he will improve as a passer. He has to.

He will win games and have us contending for the division for the next several years (although probably pass next year as D will probably still be garbage).

We differ on whether he will last long playing Tim's type of game. I think you would agree that is what he needs to do win and it is what makes the potential special player that he is. I think he has a short career for it during a time where we dont get past the rest of the talent in the AFC.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-03-2011, 10:57 AM
That's exactly what he's saying. Its pretty absurd if you think about it. The guy is a rookie with 3 starts under his belt, but hdtech the qb-guru's assessment is that he will never be more than a run and screen pass QB, even though he's shown flashes of being able to make throws that NFL caliber QBs are expected to make (i.e. deep outs)

Okay, but fair is fair. He's shown flashes of good and flashes of bad. I don't think it's a crime to weigh the good with the bad when it comes to the future of this franchise.

Do I think he can overcome some of these things? I think he has the work ethic to do it. And I know he's athletic enough. But those two things are not a guarantee of future success.

Fact is, it's been a year since he worked on his throwing motion, and while it's better, it's still one of the ugliest windups I've ever seen. The problem is, guys are able to jump routes and linemen are able to get their hands up when they see Tebow start to wind up. This. Is. An issue.

There were several passes yesterday where defensive backs were able to break on the ball and knock down a pass because of the windup. It MUST go away, and soon.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 10:58 AM
That's exactly what he's saying. Its pretty absurd if you think about it. The guy is a rookie with 3 starts under his belt, but hdtech the qb-guru's assessment is that he will never be more than a run and screen pass QB, even though he's shown flashes of being able to make throws that NFL caliber QBs are expected to make (i.e. deep outs)

Why dont you want to read everything that I wrote??? Are you skipping the part where I say he makes us contend for the division for the next 3-4 years but Tim's style will make his career not last as long as everyone expects.

jhns
01-03-2011, 10:59 AM
My reply is lost in space...

Basically, I said that he will improve as a passer. He has to.

He will win games and have us contending for the division for the next several years (although probably pass next year as D will probably still be garbage).

We differ on whether he will last long play Tim's type of game. I think you would agree that is what he needs to do win and it is what makes the potential special player that he is. I think he has a short career for it during a time where we dont get past the rest of the talent in the AFC.

That isn't what I was asking. I was asking what you think is stopping him from having a Moreno type career. Rely on his legs early as he developes into a passer. As he developes, he would then stop running as much. This has been the common theme of running QBs that make it in the NFL. Run around until you develope into a good passer.

Tombstone RJ
01-03-2011, 11:00 AM
"Tim Tebow's Rushing yards don't count"
-Why not? They're still yards. They still count in the stats. These are generally the kids sucking off vick too.

"Rushing TD's don't count for Tebow"
- What the ****? Why not? THEY COUNT FOR 6 POINTS ON THE BOARD? They count for RB's? Just because he has an element to his game that a lot of people don't, it "doesn't count"? Jagoff.


"Tebow's only completing 50% of his passes, and he played against houston!"
- He played against SD #1 pass d, and Oakland #5 pass d... too...

"Tebow couldn't beat Oakland/SD"
-He did a damn fine job of keeping us in the game single handedly though.

When people start dissing Tebow, I punch them square in the kisser...:approve:

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 11:04 AM
That isn't what I was asking. I was asking what you think is stopping him from having a Moreno type career. Rely on his legs early as he developes into a passer. As he developes, he would then stop running as much. This has been the common theme of running QBs that make it in the NFL. Run around until you develope into a good passer.

I dont know why you would intentionally plan to take away the X factor in his game. If we have seen anything in the first 3 games, which is kind of where this thread is going, you cant knock the Xfactor as a bone fide outcome.

Do I think he will be able to ever pick apart a D like Brady or Manning? Nothing has shown me that. If you think that, then you are inserting hope into your analysis. Nothing wrong with that but then I shouldnt have to defend why he is going to develop something he hasnt shown he has been able to do anywhere. There are plenty of QBs that were prolific passers in college and not in the NFL. But there arent many who go the other way.

It appears many believe that Tim can simply will himself to do anything...

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 11:06 AM
This is an excellent post, and really well stated. Just so you're aware, you're going to be branded as a blind Tebow hater, even if everything you said was true.

I like Tebow. I want him to be great, and I want him to be great in Denver. I just haven't seen anything from him that makes me believe it's a guarantee.

Branding applied.... scarred for life

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 11:09 AM
Okay, but fair is fair. He's shown flashes of good and flashes of bad. I don't think it's a crime to weigh the good with the bad when it comes to the future of this franchise.

Do I think he can overcome some of these things? I think he has the work ethic to do it. And I know he's athletic enough. But those two things are not a guarantee of future success.

Fact is, it's been a year since he worked on his throwing motion, and while it's better, it's still one of the ugliest windups I've ever seen. The problem is, guys are able to jump routes and linemen are able to get their hands up when they see Tebow start to wind up. This. Is. An issue.

There were several passes yesterday where defensive backs were able to break on the ball and knock down a pass because of the windup. It MUST go away, and soon.

It's because he made the decision to throw late. He's a rookie and his decision making process isn't fast enough yet. That is what he really needs to work on and get used to doing. His fraction of a second longer throwing motion is nothing and irrelevant compared to his multiple second delay in deciding where to throw. There were multiple examples of him making the correct read and an excellent accurate throw. It was just there too late because he didn't make the decision to throw it soon enough. The throw to Thomas that got picked and a few of the throws to the sidelines are good examples.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-03-2011, 11:11 AM
It's because he made the decision to throw late. He's a rookie and his decision making process isn't fast enough yet. That is what he really needs to work on and get used to doing. His fraction of a second longer throwing motion is nothing and irrelevant compared to his multiple second delay in deciding where to throw. There were multiple examples of him making the correct read and an excellent accurate throw. It was just there too late because he didn't make the decision to throw it soon enough. The throw to Thomas that got picked and a few of the throws to the sidelines are good examples.

I honestly think it's a combination of the two factors. Yes, he made his decision to throw late on some of those balls. However, in several cases, his decision was made and it just took too long to get the ball out.

People want to compare him to Vick, but Vick's motion is so compact he can get the ball out in a fraction of the time that it takes Tim. Same with every elite passer in this game.

If he wants to become a good passing QB, and something more than just a college QB who runs people over in the open field, he's going to have to figure something out. The fact that it's been a year and he's still reverting to that pitcher's windup really concerns me.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 11:13 AM
His fraction of a second longer throwing motion is nothing and irrelevant compared to his multiple second delay in deciding where to throw.

I couldnt disagree more. Not only does it allow the DL and DB to anticipate his throw, Tim tends to over throw the ball to compensate for the slow release.

However, I think his mechanics can be improved. It really is about getting a shorter release. People knock Rivers ugly motion, but one thing it has going for it is the release.

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 11:14 AM
I dont know why you would intentionally plan to take away the X factor in his game. If we have seen anything in the first 3 games, which is kind of where this thread is going, you cant knock the Xfactor as a bone fide outcome.

Do I think he will be able to ever pick apart a D like Brady or Manning? Nothing has shown me that. If you think that, then you are inserting hope into your analysis. Nothing wrong with that but then I shouldnt have to defend why he is going to develop something he hasnt shown he has been able to do anywhere. There are plenty of QBs that were prolific passers in college and not in the NFL. But there arent many who go the other way.

It appears many believe that Tim can simply will himself to do anything...

Who's saying he needs to do that? You can be a good pocket passer and not be on the level of Brady, Manning, and Brees. Those guys are the absolute best at pocket passing. Hall of Fame quality. We just need him to be good at it (he's proven he can make the necessary throws to be good so it just comes down to effort and the mental aspects) and to allow his outside the pocket passing to bolster his game like Plummer and Rothlisberger.

bronco militia
01-03-2011, 11:15 AM
I don't think his release is a problem yet. He looked like any other roookie QB that can run: Late on his reads, late on his throws, and was too quick to tuck the ball and run.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-03-2011, 11:16 AM
Who's saying he needs to do that? You can be a good pocket passer and not be on the level of Brady, Manning, and Brees. Those guys are the absolute best at pocket passing. Hall of Fame quality. We just need him to be good at it (he's proven he can make the necessary throws to be good so it just comes down to effort and the mental aspects) and to allow his outside the pocket passing to bolster his game like Plummer and Rothlisberger.

Every quarterback you named there has a much shorter release time. I would guess Tim's is the slowest release IN THE NFL.

It's got to get better. I hope it does. I have seen no evidence to guarantee that it will.

2KBack
01-03-2011, 11:18 AM
I couldnt disagree more. Not only does it allow the DL and DB to anticipate his throw, Tim tends to over throw the ball to compensate for the slow release.

However, I think his mechanics can be improved. It really is about getting a shorter release. People knock Rivers ugly motion, but one thing it has going for it is the release.

The same thing was said about Elway's obsessive habit of patting the ball right before throwing it. It was argued that the defense could anticipate the throw.

Steve Sewell
01-03-2011, 11:20 AM
Why dont you want to read everything that I wrote??? Are you skipping the part where I say he makes us contend for the division for the next 3-4 years but Tim's style will make his career not last as long as everyone expects.

Tim's "style" of play right now is very similar to that of John Elway early in his career. Elway was a playmaker with a big arm and lots of athleticism, and had to make a lot of plays with his legs. He was also wildly inaccurate at times and would stink up Mile High for 3 quarters and then put it together in the 4th. A lot of people forget this. The physical abuse he took early on in his career was insane. How many years did he last in the NFL? How many years did Brett Favre last in the NFL?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-03-2011, 11:21 AM
The same thing was said about Elway's obsessive habit of patting the ball right before throwing it. It was argued that the defense could anticipate the throw.

Fair enough, but that's COMPLETELY different than Tim locking on a receiver and giving the defender a full second to make a move on the ball. COMPLETELY different.

Patting a ball in your hand is not even close to the same sign that the start of a windup is. And further, Elway's release was SO much faster than Tim's, it's not even on the same planet.

bronco militia
01-03-2011, 11:22 AM
Fair enough, but that's COMPLETELY different than Tim locking on a receiver and giving the defender a full second to make a move on the ball. COMPLETELY different.

Patting a ball in your hand is not even close to the same sign that the start of a windup is. And further, Elway's release was SO much faster than Tim's, it's not even on the same planet.

this is true.....Elways release was almost a 1 second quicker than the 'great' Cutler

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-03-2011, 11:23 AM
Tim's "style" of play right now is very similar to that of John Elway early in his career. Elway was a playmaker with a big arm and lots of athleticism, and had to make a lot of plays with his legs. He was also wildly inaccurate at times and would stink up Mile High for 3 quarters and then put it together in the 4th. A lot of people forget this. The physical abuse he took early on in his career was insane. How many years did he last in the NFL? How many years did Brett Favre last in the NFL?

Can we please -- PLEASE -- stop comparing him to Elway and Favre? Please? I mean, it's just insanity.

Know who else was an athletic QB who made a lot of mistakes early in his career? Akili Smith. ALSO not a fair comparison.

Really. It's nuts. And it's WAY more pressure than we should be applying to Tim anyway.

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 11:23 AM
I couldnt disagree more. Not only does it allow the DL and DB to anticipate his throw, Tim tends to over throw the ball to compensate for the slow release.

However, I think his mechanics can be improved. It really is about getting a shorter release. People knock Rivers ugly motion, but one thing it has going for it is the release.

Well we'll have to disagree on that. It is literally just fractions of a second longer. That is not long enough for conscious thought.

I'm far more interested in him improving his decision making skills, reading defenses, and footwork.

yerner
01-03-2011, 11:24 AM
Can we please -- PLEASE -- stop comparing him to Elway and Favre? Please? I mean, it's just insanity.

Know who else was an athletic QB who made a lot of mistakes early in his career? Akili Smith. ALSO not a fair comparison.

Really. It's nuts. And it's WAY more pressure than we should be applying to Tim anyway.

No. Tebow is a left handed John Elway. End of Story.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-03-2011, 11:26 AM
Well we'll have to disagree on that. It is literally just fractions of a second longer. That is not long enough for conscious thought.

I'm far more interested in him improving his decision making skills, reading defenses, and footwork.

When did NFL players become capable of conscious thought? I guarantee you that a defensive back knows to break on the ball as soon as he see's Tim start his windup.

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 11:26 AM
Fair enough, but that's COMPLETELY different than Tim locking on a receiver and giving the defender a full second to make a move on the ball. COMPLETELY different.

Patting a ball in your hand is not even close to the same sign that the start of a windup is. And further, Elway's release was SO much faster than Tim's, it's not even on the same planet.

Double patting the ball, no matter how fast the release, still slows it down just as much as Tebow's longer throwing motion. Again, we'll have to disagree on this point, I think the slightly longer throwing motion is irrelevant. It's going to come down to the decision making.

TailgateNut
01-03-2011, 11:26 AM
no. Tebow is a left handed john elway. End of story.


lol

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 11:27 AM
Tim's "style" of play right now is very similar to that of John Elway early in his career. Elway was a playmaker with a big arm and lots of athleticism, and had to make a lot of plays with his legs. He was also wildly inaccurate at times and would stink up Mile High for 3 quarters and then put it together in the 4th. A lot of people forget this. The physical abuse he took early on in his career was insane. How many years did he last in the NFL? How many years did Brett Favre last in the NFL?

How many games did John ever rush more than 10 times?

And while you look that up, how many would guess were design runs vs tuck and runs? Remember that numerous of the Tebow runs are designs that way.

But you do make an excellent point about John having many games of being ineffective for 2 or 3 quarters only to light it up late and pull it out.

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 11:29 AM
When did NFL players become capable of conscious thought? I guarantee you that a defensive back knows to break on the ball as soon as he see's Tim start his windup.

And he'll either be in position to defend it or he won't be regardless of how fast the release is. If he's in position then it's going to come down to Tebow putting it in a place where only the receiver can get the ball.

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 11:29 AM
How many games did John ever rush more than 10 times?

And while you look that up, how many would guess were design runs vs tuck and runs? Remember that numerous of the Tebow runs are designs that way.

And they won't be in the future if we have a competent OC.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-03-2011, 11:30 AM
Double patting the ball, no matter how fast the release, still slows it down just as much as Tebow's longer throwing motion. Again, we'll have to disagree on this point, I think the slightly longer throwing motion is irrelevant. It's going to come down to the decision making.

You can think that all you want. It's wrong.

Why was his motion an issue in last year's draft, if it's not an issue?

It's like sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalalalalala" in order not to hear what's right in front of you.

2KBack
01-03-2011, 11:32 AM
Fair enough, but that's COMPLETELY different than Tim locking on a receiver and giving the defender a full second to make a move on the ball. COMPLETELY different.

Patting a ball in your hand is not even close to the same sign that the start of a windup is. And further, Elway's release was SO much faster than Tim's, it's not even on the same planet.

Receiver locking is totally a rookie thing. For all the screams for levity when evaluating Tebow, it is important to remember he has played 3 total games in his career, and has done it under a pretty crap coaching staff IMO. All you can do at this stage is look for the flashes. I've seem far more flashes of good than bad. His ability to rally the team and almost personally will the team to be competitive late in games is something that cannot be taught. Every flaw that people want to point out is fixable.

I'm no expert on release times, and to be honest I think it's more buzzword than legitimate evaluation tool.

frerottenextelway
01-03-2011, 11:33 AM
Haters should be honest about their hatred, nobody buys the strawman defenses.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 11:33 AM
And they won't be in the future if we have a competent OC.

Again, why would someone come in here and take away what has been the most effective part of Tebow's game? Good coaching uses the assets the team has.

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 11:33 AM
You can think that all you want. It's wrong.

Why was his motion an issue in last year's draft, if it's not an issue?

It's like sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalalalalala" in order not to hear what's right in front of you.

Because people wanted to make it an issue? They had nothing else to rag on him for so it had to be something.

And I would put money on double patting a ball will delay it just as much as Tebow's natural motion. We are talking fractions of a second here not full seconds.

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 11:35 AM
Again, why would someone come in here and take away what has been the most effective part of Tebow's game? Good coaching uses the assets the team has.

What idiot, besides our OC, would do multiple called runs up the middle with their QB?

If all the runs stay in they will be the runs like we had with Plummer getting him to the outside where his athleticism will allow him to beat the defender and avoid the big hits.

The stuff up the middle should be almost all improvised.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-03-2011, 11:36 AM
Because people wanted to make it an issue? They had nothing else to rag on him for so it had to be something.

And I would put money on double patting a ball will delay it just as much as Tebow's natural motion. We are talking fractions of a second here not full seconds.

Guh.

You're not getting this.

Double patting isn't as recognizeable to a guy in coverage 20 yards down field as a full pitcher's motion. It's not even close. If you blink, you can miss a double pat. You won't miss Tebow's motion in a blink because it's long and drawn out.

If it was just a complaint for complaint's sake, why did Tim even bother trying to fix it? If he knew it wasn't an issue, why did he take strides to correct it?

TonyR
01-03-2011, 11:36 AM
Isn't it both funny and interesting how a lot of the people who blindly hated McDaniels now blindly love and defend Tim Tebow? And vice versa?

maher_tyler
01-03-2011, 11:37 AM
This all assuming he'll never get better and stay the same his entire career! Assuming he'll always tuck it, run and try to truck guys the rest of his career. You really think he'll do that his entire career?? Considering how horrible this team is..with out a head coach to boot..i think he's shown me enough to at least give me some hope that he can develop into a good pocket passer or into a Vick type player!! If Vick can do it..why not Tebow??

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-03-2011, 11:38 AM
Isn't it both funny and interesting how a lot of the people who blindly hated McDaniels now blindly love and defend Tim Tebow? And vice versa?

I don't think it's that cut and dry. I think people legitimately see something in Tebow, good or bad, just like they legitimately saw something in McDaniels, good or bad.

It's not "blind." It's differing opinions.

bronco militia
01-03-2011, 11:39 AM
Isn't it both funny and interesting how a lot of the people who blindly hated McDaniels now blindly love and defend Tim Tebow? And vice versa?

maybe Xanders drafted Tebow? :clown:

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 11:41 AM
I don't think it's that cut and dry. I think people legitimately see something in Tebow, good or bad, just like they legitimately saw something in McDaniels, good or bad.

It's not "blind." It's differing opinions.

I see a fan base desperate to jump the first positive thing after so many negatives with McD. Koolaid fully kicking in now. Understandable but admittedly surprising to me from some posters who I thought looked at things pretty objectively.

TonyR
01-03-2011, 11:41 AM
I don't think it's that cut and dry.

Agree. I'm over simplifying. I just think people should have learned their lessons. I was a McD supporter and I clung to positives and ignored/dismissed to many of the negatives. I'm not going to make that same "mistake" with Tebow. I see a lot of people here who badly need some hope and because of that are seeing too much of the positives of Tebow without noticing the question marks. He's a huge work in progress and we really don't know what we have yet. Kid is a winner and a leader and he's hard not to like but he's not an NFL QB yet.

TonyR
01-03-2011, 11:44 AM
I see a fan base desperate to jump the first positive thing after so many negatives with McD. Koolaid fully kicking in now. Understandable but admittedly surprising to me from some posters who I thought looked at things pretty objectively.

Yup, you're seeing what I'm seeing. My eyes are wide open now. Cutler was a huge question mark. McD was a huge question mark. Moreno is a huge question mark. Etc. And now Tebow.

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 11:49 AM
Guh.

You're not getting this.

Double patting isn't as recognizeable to a guy in coverage 20 yards down field as a full pitcher's motion. It's not even close. If you blink, you can miss a double pat. You won't miss Tebow's motion in a blink because it's long and drawn out.

If it was just a complaint for complaint's sake, why did Tim even bother trying to fix it? If he knew it wasn't an issue, why did he take strides to correct it?

And why would a throw be that much more recognizable? There are ten 270 to 320 pound men all 6 feet 2 inches plus standing in front of him and around him. Most of the guys covering down field won't even be looking at him until after the ball is thrown (if he gets that timing down like all successful QB's need to do) assuming our receivers are even half competent at running routes (when pocket passing). Which leaves the safeties or a dropped linebacker into coverage and if those guys can see the throw all the way and are in a location to make the play we're ****ed regardless of release speed because that means Tebow got fooled and is about make a mistake just by throwing the ball in the first place.

As for why he would try to fix it? Because he was told he needed to so he did. That's the kind of guy he is. Some people say it has sped things up a little bit. I don't know either way.

2KBack
01-03-2011, 11:50 AM
I see a fan base desperate to jump the first positive thing after so many negatives with McD. Koolaid fully kicking in now. Understandable but admittedly surprising to me from some posters who I thought looked at things pretty objectively.

I'm not too sure what objectivity has to do with it. I was as big a Kyle Orton supporter as there was here, but you cannot deny the difference in how the team has responded since the switch to Tebow. 1-2 isn't a great record by any measure, but even with Tim having typical rookie struggles the team went from being blown out by AZ to being a hail mary from beating a top statistical team that has absolutely owned us recently (not to mention the 17 point comeback the week before).

Positives are supposed to be jumped on btw, why would the fan base jump on something negative? You build on something positive, you don't tear it down.

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 11:51 AM
Yup, you're seeing what I'm seeing. My eyes are wide open now. Cutler was a huge question mark. McD was a huge question mark. Moreno is a huge question mark. Etc. And now Tebow.

None of the supporters are denying that he has work to do. A lot of it. What we do deny is that he is somehow an inferior QB prospect.

zdoor
01-03-2011, 11:53 AM
It's because he made the decision to throw late. He's a rookie and his decision making process isn't fast enough yet. That is what he really needs to work on and get used to doing. His fraction of a second longer throwing motion is nothing and irrelevant compared to his multiple second delay in deciding where to throw. There were multiple examples of him making the correct read and an excellent accurate throw. It was just there too late because he didn't make the decision to throw it soon enough. The throw to Thomas that got picked and a few of the throws to the sidelines are good examples.

It's also relavent that he's had very few reps with DT but I agree with your points completely.

Steve Sewell
01-03-2011, 11:55 AM
Can we please -- PLEASE -- stop comparing him to Elway and Favre? Please? I mean, it's just insanity.

Know who else was an athletic QB who made a lot of mistakes early in his career? Akili Smith. ALSO not a fair comparison.

Really. It's nuts. And it's WAY more pressure than we should be applying to Tim anyway.

I was responding to a question about QB durability and the notion that Tebow's career would be shortened due to his style of play.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 11:55 AM
Yeah, I'm the one not paying attention. I have the Houston game recorded. Maybe I will count the screens some time and give a real count.



Just a little help for you
27826

Most attempted pass is behind the line. I dont care what you want to define it as but its effectively a screen in my book. And I think a few of the 1-10 yarders are also likely candidates as screens.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=13200

Take a look also at how many passes are considered "over the middle." Most everything is the left and left sidelines (expected for lefty). I feel pretty confident in my statements of how the play calling has been in these last 3 starts.

TonyR
01-03-2011, 11:57 AM
What we do deny is that he is somehow an inferior QB prospect.

And I don't think that. I think it's possible that he'll be really good. I'm just not as sold as many seem to be. He cannot make a career out of being a "running QB". It never works. It didn't work for Vick, and now that he's changed his game notice how a guy everybody thought was washed up is now a candidate for league MVP. Tebow has a lot to prove as a passer. And I'll be rooting for him to prove it.

zdoor
01-03-2011, 11:57 AM
Isn't it both funny and interesting how a lot of the people who blindly hated McDaniels now blindly love and defend Tim Tebow? And vice versa?

Actually I thought the same thing. I also saw several posts where an argument was made that we need a coach who will leave the offense alone and focus on our weaknesses, the D, from previous McD supporters. I found that pretty comical as well considering that is the problem a lot of people had with McD...

Regardless as a guy who was not fond of McD for the reason above, I am a Tebow homer...

jhns
01-03-2011, 12:01 PM
I dont know why you would intentionally plan to take away the X factor in his game. If we have seen anything in the first 3 games, which is kind of where this thread is going, you cant knock the Xfactor as a bone fide outcome.

Do I think he will be able to ever pick apart a D like Brady or Manning? Nothing has shown me that. If you think that, then you are inserting hope into your analysis. Nothing wrong with that but then I shouldnt have to defend why he is going to develop something he hasnt shown he has been able to do anywhere. There are plenty of QBs that were prolific passers in college and not in the NFL. But there arent many who go the other way.

It appears many believe that Tim can simply will himself to do anything...

So you are just a hater then. Got it.

Why would you claim he won't last more than 5 years rushing like he does and then ask why he would go away from it? Why wouldn't he develope just like every other rushing QB that has been successful and start throwing more, while running less, as his career progresses?

No one here is claiming he is becomming one of the greatest effer. Why are you comparing him to Brady and Manning? Wtf?

Why can't he be a threat passing? It was his passing that won the Houston game. He has shown he can make every NFL throw. He has shown that he is willing to throw it away. He has shown that he can extend plays. He has shown the ability to do everything that every successful passer does. He is inconsistent as a rookie. That is expected. What exactly are the Tebow haters arguing anyways? Do you not think he has earned himself a shot at starting next season? That is all anyone here has claimed.

Steve Sewell
01-03-2011, 12:03 PM
How many games did John ever rush more than 10 times?

And while you look that up, how many would guess were design runs vs tuck and runs? Remember that numerous of the Tebow runs are designs that way.

But you do make an excellent point about John having many games of being ineffective for 2 or 3 quarters only to light it up late and pull it out.

I'm not "looking that up", I watched the damn games. Elway took a **** load of physical abuse throughout his career, especially early on. They weren't designed runs but he ran a lot.

Do you really think that coaches are going to allow the number of designed runs that they've called for Tebow in the last few games in future games?

The kid has shown an ability to make NFL quality throws, and will continue to hone his mechanics and skills as a passer. What can't be taught are leadership skills, athleticism, and the ability to extend plays, all things that Tebow has with abundance.

jhns
01-03-2011, 12:03 PM
Guh.

You're not getting this.

Double patting isn't as recognizeable to a guy in coverage 20 yards down field as a full pitcher's motion. It's not even close. If you blink, you can miss a double pat. You won't miss Tebow's motion in a blink because it's long and drawn out.

If it was just a complaint for complaint's sake, why did Tim even bother trying to fix it? If he knew it wasn't an issue, why did he take strides to correct it?

His "issue" is so bad that he outperformed Orton with horrible game plans. This offenses average in Tebow games makes us a top 10 scoring offense (like 6 or 7) this year.

I would say you haters are going a little overboard with the Tebow is flawed thing. Every QB has flaws...

zdoor
01-03-2011, 12:04 PM
Agree. I'm over simplifying. I just think people should have learned their lessons. I was a McD supporter and I clung to positives and ignored/dismissed to many of the negatives. I'm not going to make that same "mistake" with Tebow. I see a lot of people here who badly need some hope and because of that are seeing too much of the positives of Tebow without noticing the question marks. He's a huge work in progress and we really don't know what we have yet. Kid is a winner and a leader and he's hard not to like but he's not an NFL QB yet.

What adds to the hope people have in Tebow, is many are enamored with the heart he shows for the game and are optimistic that his work ethic will carry him further than most. That coupled with the abyss we've been in for the past few years make people want to reach for something positive and a winner with heart is easy to root for. He's a work in progress but he's earned a chance to start 2011 as the opening QB IMO and I'm down with seeing where he takes us. I think we've seen at least as much positive as negative but I can respect a differing opinion.

I would rather not squander picks on another QB prospect, regardless of how highly touted when we are among the worst D's of all time and have been awful for many years now.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 12:04 PM
So you are just a hater then. Got it.
Nope. just not sold on him as QBOTF. I love how you think I am hating when I say that he will put as a legit division contender. Yup, I hate him.

Probably the only thing in me that is partly hater-esque is that I dont like the the Brandon Marshall equivalent trade bounty we paid to get him. That still has me burned so maybe my expectations are a little high?


Why can't he be a threat passing? It was his passing that won the Houston game. He has shown he can make every NFL throw. He has shown that he is willing to throw it away. He has shown that he can extend plays. He has shown the ability to do everything that every successful passer does. He is inconsistent as a rookie. That is expected. What exactly are the Tebow haters arguing anyways? Do you not think he has earned himself a shot at starting next season? That is all anyone here has claimed.

I would trade for Luck if the price wasnt too high. The most I would part with is the #2, MiaRd2/#3 and Tebow. If the price is higher than that, then I want to stick with Tebow and have an exciting 4-5 year run where I dont think we will advance past the WC round.

BroncosMT
01-03-2011, 12:06 PM
I would rather not squander picks on another QB prospect, regardless of how highly touted when we are among the worst D's of all time and have been awful for many years now.[/QUOTE]

This!

frerottenextelway
01-03-2011, 12:09 PM
Just a little help for you
27826

Most attempted pass is behind the line. I dont care what you want to define it as but its effectively a screen in my book. And I think a few of the 1-10 yarders are also likely candidates as screens.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=13200

Take a look also at how many passes are considered "over the middle." Most everything is the left and left sidelines (expected for lefty). I feel pretty confident in my statements of how the play calling has been in these last 3 starts.

They had a stat on last night that 26 of Bradford's 30 passes (at that point) were 10 yards or less.

Not that anyone was talking about Bradford, but it's good for comparison sake.

jhns
01-03-2011, 12:09 PM
Just a little help for you
27826

Most attempted pass is behind the line. I dont care what you want to define it as but its effectively a screen in my book. And I think a few of the 1-10 yarders are also likely candidates as screens.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=13200

Take a look also at how many passes are considered "over the middle." Most everything is the left and left sidelines (expected for lefty). I feel pretty confident in my statements of how the play calling has been in these last 3 starts.

You don't know what a screen is. Stop talking about it.

Every QB throws far more short passes than mid to long passes. Short passes are not screens. Screens are where you let defenders rush the QB and send your blockers out in front of the intended receiver. We did not do that 90 times in the Houston game...

Beantown Bronco
01-03-2011, 12:09 PM
Anyone know where one could find the official "average starting field position" statistics for the last three weeks, and the season as a whole? I keep hearing about how our scoring has gone up since Tebow took over, but nobody is mentioning one possibility for this: the fact that our defense and special teams all of a sudden have been providing short fields for the offense to work with.

Just basing it off of memory, it seems that most of our scoring drives the past 3 weeks have come on extremely short fields, but was looking to verify it with hard data.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 12:11 PM
You don't know what a screen is. Stop talking about it.

Every QB throws far more short passes than mid to long passes. Short passes are not screens. Screens are where you let defenders rush the QB and send your blockers out in front of the intended receiver. We did not do that 90 times in the Houston game...

It says behind the line of scrimmage???? Do you not see that as a screen? Hilarious!

jhns
01-03-2011, 12:12 PM
It says behind the line of scrimmage???? Do you not see that as a screen? Hilarious!

Again, you have no clue what a screen is. You prove it with every post.

Tombstone RJ
01-03-2011, 12:12 PM
Anyone know where one could find the official "average starting field position" statistics for the last three weeks, and the season as a whole? I keep hearing about how our scoring has gone up since Tebow took over, but nobody is mentioning one possibility for this: the fact that our defense and special teams all of a sudden have been providing short fields for the offense to work with.

Just basing it off of memory, it seems that most of our scoring drives the past 3 weeks have come on extremely short fields, but was looking to verify it with hard data.

Turnovers have something to do with that too. The defense seemed to be playing with more fire the last three games.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 12:14 PM
Again, you have no clue what a screen is. You prove it with every post.

Okay enlighten us.... How is pass that that is completed behind the line of scrimmage IN OUR ****ING OFFENSE not a screen.

You are plain stupid and it is easy to see why many posters have you on iggy.

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 12:14 PM
And I don't think that. I think it's possible that he'll be really good. I'm just not as sold as many seem to be. He cannot make a career out of being a "running QB". It never works. It didn't work for Vick, and now that he's changed his game notice how a guy everybody thought was washed up is now a candidate for league MVP. Tebow has a lot to prove as a passer. And I'll be rooting for him to prove it.

Except for a few I don't think anybody is sold. I'm still nervous about him. He has a lot of work to do mentally, as all rookie QBs do, to succeed. That's not something you can see or measure.

Steve Sewell
01-03-2011, 12:16 PM
I don't see what the dust-up over screens is all about. Screen plays are a big part of the NFL offensive game for every team.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 12:16 PM
Except for a few I don't think anybody is sold. I'm still nervous about him. He has a lot of work to do mentally, as all rookie QBs do, to succeed. That's not something you can see or measure.

So your nervous and its cool but other are maybe a little more nervous and we are haters huh?

Tombstone RJ
01-03-2011, 12:16 PM
can you feel the love on the board today, I know I'm feeling it...

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 12:18 PM
Anyone know where one could find the official "average starting field position" statistics for the last three weeks, and the season as a whole? I keep hearing about how our scoring has gone up since Tebow took over, but nobody is mentioning one possibility for this: the fact that our defense and special teams all of a sudden have been providing short fields for the offense to work with.

Just basing it off of memory, it seems that most of our scoring drives the past 3 weeks have come on extremely short fields, but was looking to verify it with hard data.

We've had better returns. Also, I recall a stat that we had our first scoring drive of the year over 10 plays or something like that with Tebow.

broncocalijohn
01-03-2011, 12:18 PM
Isn't it both funny and interesting how a lot of the people who blindly hated McDaniels now blindly love and defend Tim Tebow? And vice versa?

Why is that funny? While your love for McD can show some negative points on the former coach, we can also see what he did do correctly. I think he also made Orton a more excitable passer for the NFL. While not close to perfect, he helped his game from comparison to him being with the Bears.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 12:18 PM
I don't see what the dust-up over screens is all about. Screen plays are a big part of the NFL offensive game for every team.

Screens are relevant to those who think that a successful NFL Tebow offense will look a lot like the gators. And to spell that out for jhns, that is lots of screens, short outs, designed runs and some blend of improvising. Little over the middle and deep other than to keep them honest.

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 12:19 PM
So your nervous and its cool but other are maybe a little more nervous and we are haters huh?

You see me calling anybody a hater?

Also, I'm nervous about things like the mental aspect of the game not his throwing motion. I couldn't give a **** about that. The mental side is something that everybody agrees is important and something that you can't measure. You just have to see it happen in front of you.

Every time we have a young QB that's what I worry about most because that's what makes or breaks a QB. Manning is not a godly athlete but he's the best QB to every play the game in regards to the mental aspects of football.

jhns
01-03-2011, 12:19 PM
Okay enlighten us.... How is pass that that is completed behind the line of scrimmage IN OUR ****ING OFFENSE not a screen.

You are plain stupid and it is easy to see why many posters have you on iggy.

Easy. Dump offs...

Could be a pass straight out to the receiver because the corner is playing off.

It could be many things. It isn't a screen unless the blockers go out in front of the receiver and allow the pass rush to go free.

Now can we test my knowledge with something that isn't so elementary?

frerottenextelway
01-03-2011, 12:22 PM
I would like to see the percent of deep throws by Tebow in comparison to others. Someone post that.

jhns
01-03-2011, 12:22 PM
I can't edit my last post but I guess you don't really have to let the pass rush run free for a screen. You do need to have guys that go setup blocking before the pass is thrown for it to be a screen though. Screens are a VERY small fraction of short passes in this league.

Steve Sewell
01-03-2011, 12:23 PM
Screens are relevant to those who think that a successful NFL Tebow offense will look a lot like the gators. And to spell that out for jhns, that is lots of screens, short outs, designed runs and some blend of improvising. Little over the middle and deep other than to keep them honest.

Hmm I didn't see the Broncos exclusively running the spread option with Tebow behind center.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 12:24 PM
Easy. Dump offs...

Could be a pass straight out to the receiver because the corner is playing off.

It could be many things. It isn't a screen unless the blockers go out in front of the receiver and allow the pass rush to go free.

Now can we test my knowledge with something that isn't so elementary?

I cant recall a straight out pass to the receiver yet for Tebow yet. I cant believe you are trying to defend this. Most of the these short passes are these quick WR screens as I recall.

Again this is still the Josh McD offense here which uses probably the WR screen more than any other offense. I should say top 5 because you will want to tear that down too.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 12:26 PM
Hmm I didn't see the Broncos exclusively running the spread option with Tebow behind center.

They practically are when it they want to move the ball, ie 2nd half. Tim's stats in shotgun are much better than under center.

For all the things are talking about what can improve and what cant improve, I dont see this part of his game changing. Under center will improve but never as good as the shotgun

Steve Sewell
01-03-2011, 12:27 PM
I can't edit my last post but I guess you don't really have to let the pass rush run free for a screen. You do need to have guys that go setup blocking before the pass is thrown for it to be a screen though. Screens are a VERY small fraction of short passes in this league.

I can't believe I'm agreeing with jhns on something, but yes a "screen" is called a screen because it is a play designed to pass the ball to a player with a "screen" of blockers already in place out in front of the receiver.

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 12:27 PM
I would like to see the percent of deep throws by Tebow in comparison to others. Someone post that.

Now obviously he doesn't have as many attempts as the other QB's in the league but his yards per attempt through those three games would put him 5th in the league with 7.97 P/A and he's sitting at over 15 yards per completion.

Either our screen game is really rocking the house or Tebow is showing he can put it down the field. Honestly it's probably both. He's opened up both aspects of the game in ways Orton never could.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 12:30 PM
I can't believe I'm agreeing with jhns on something, but yes a "screen" is called a screen because it is a play designed to pass the ball to a player with a "screen" of blockers already in place out in front of the receiver.

Why yes, yes they are. And you only see very few if any run since Tebow has been in.

Steve Sewell
01-03-2011, 12:32 PM
They practically are when it they want to move the ball, ie 2nd half. Tim's stats in shotgun are much better than under center.

For all the things are talking about what can improve and what cant improve, I dont see this part of his game changing. Under center will improve but never as good as the shotgun

You don't think Tebow can improve taking snaps under center? Are you serious or just trolling? He's played in 3 NFL games and has been practicing as the 2nd string QB for most of the season.

Also, every QB at every level of football is more effective taking a snap from shotgun as opposed to under center. The problem with taking a snap from shotgun is that it limits what you can do in the run game and play action, which is why taking snaps from under center is so important in the NFL particularly.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 12:33 PM
You don't think Tebow can improve taking snaps under center? Are you serious or just trolling? He's played in 3 NFL games and has been practicing as the 2nd string QB for most of the season.

Also, every QB at every level of football is more effective taking a snap from shotgun as opposed to under center. The problem with taking a snap from shotgun is that it limits what you can do in the run game and play action, which is why taking snaps from under center is so important in the NFL particularly.

read the next ****ing sentence after your bolding please. thanks for paying attention.

frerottenextelway
01-03-2011, 12:35 PM
Now obviously he doesn't have as many attempts as the other QB's in the league but his yards per attempt through those three games would put him 5th in the league with 7.97 P/A and he's sitting at over 15 yards per completion.

Either our screen game is really rocking the house or Tebow is showing he can put it down the field. Honestly it's probably both. He's opened up both aspects of the game in ways Orton never could.

Hard posting from the phone, but I did a search on Brady and 343 of his 492 attempts were 10 yards or less. I think some misread these type of stats.

Steve Sewell
01-03-2011, 12:37 PM
read the next ****ing sentence after your bolding please. thanks for paying attention.

I stopped reading after the sentence I bolded because it was so absurd.

Care to respond to the rest of my post or are you just here to attack the areas that you think you can while ignoring the rest?

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 12:39 PM
I stopped reading after the sentence I bolded because it was so absurd.

Care to respond to the rest of my post or are you just here to attack the areas that you think you can while ignoring the rest?

You came back and agreed with what I said? Ha!

Not my fault you didnt read the whole post

Archer81
01-03-2011, 12:41 PM
We have a defense that gave up over 6,000 yards and 400+ points. A QB in the first round will definately fix that, wont it.

Jesus Christ on a cracker...

:Broncos:

Gutless Drunk
01-03-2011, 12:41 PM
Hard posting from the phone, but I did a search on Brady and 343 of his 492 attempts were 10 yards or less. I think some misread these type of stats.

I wouldn't be surprised. Brady is a dink-n-dunk master and everybody thinks he is the greatest. More than one way to get it done.

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 12:42 PM
We have a defense that gave up over 6,000 yards and 400+ points. A QB in the first round will definately fix that, wont it.

Jesus Christ on a cracker...

:Broncos:

Oh my God, is that a record?

jhns
01-03-2011, 12:42 PM
Hard posting from the phone, but I did a search on Brady and 343 of his 492 attempts were 10 yards or less. I think some misread these type of stats.

Where did you find that? I was going to do a comparison but on ESPN where is shows the attempts by how far it was thrown, it only shows Brady with 476 attempts, when he had 492. It only shows like 40 attempts for Tebow in the splits by distance thrown and 82 attempts on his normal stat page. They are off somewhere.

Archer81
01-03-2011, 12:43 PM
Oh my God, is that a record?


According to another thread, its 6th worst all time...thats right. All time.


:Broncos:

Steve Sewell
01-03-2011, 12:44 PM
You came back and agreed with what I said? Ha!

Not my fault you didnt read the whole post

Why should I take the time to read entire posts from someone who says one thing and then contradicts himself in the very next sentence?

jhns
01-03-2011, 12:44 PM
Nevermind, the splits on ESPN just don't include the last game.

Kaylore
01-03-2011, 12:45 PM
Hard posting from the phone, but I did a search on Brady and 343 of his 492 attempts were 10 yards or less. I think some misread these type of stats.

And probably a third of his passes are screen passes.

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 12:46 PM
Hard posting from the phone, but I did a search on Brady and 343 of his 492 attempts were 10 yards or less. I think some misread these type of stats.

I wouldn't doubt it. The short passing game based on quick decisions is a very high percentage throw. It's damn near impossible to defend. You can only hope to limit it.

People may not like it but that's a big part of NFL offenses these days.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 12:48 PM
Why should I take the time to read entire posts from someone who says one thing and then contradicts himself in the very next sentence?

How is it a contradiction to say that so far he is better in the shotgun than under center. Then in the next sentence, under center will improve but out of the shotgun will be Tebow's bread and butter.

I think most agree with that idea. I dont view it as a negative either really.

bronco militia
01-03-2011, 12:50 PM
http://dpphoto.slideshowpro.com/albums/005/474/album-178140/cache/day150194.sJPG_900_540_0_95_1_50_50.sJPG?129407987 8

broncocalijohn
01-03-2011, 12:50 PM
Where did you find that? I was going to do a comparison but on ESPN where is shows the attempts by how far it was thrown, it only shows Brady with 476 attempts, when he had 492. It only shows like 40 attempts for Tebow in the splits by distance thrown and 82 attempts on his normal stat page. They are off somewhere.

They didnt include week 17 as i think he went 10/16 (Brady).

Steve Sewell
01-03-2011, 12:50 PM
How is it a contradiction to say that so far he is better in the shotgun than under center. Then in the next sentence, under center will improve but out of the shotgun will be Tebow's bread and butter.

I think most agree with that idea. I dont view it as a negative either really.

Fair enough.

So lets just get this out of the way so we can put an end to the argument.

What do you think the Broncos should do, from a personnel standpoint, and given current team needs/draft position, at the quarterback position?

TailgateNut
01-03-2011, 12:55 PM
Okay enlighten us.... How is pass that that is completed behind the line of scrimmage IN OUR ****ING OFFENSE not a screen.

You are plain stupid and it is easy to see why many posters have you on iggy.


It took you a while to figure that out, but you'll live a happier life without the arrogant ignoramous in your life.

Fedaykin
01-03-2011, 01:15 PM
Tebow is just the inverse of Cutler.

Great intangibles, poor passing skills.

I like the kid and he's fun to watch, but if he doesn't develop a solid passing game, he won't amount to squat. He's benefited these three games from no one having film on him, and even with that his passing skills are still way behind the curve (he had at least 10 throws in the SD game that looked like throw aways even though they weren't). Once teams have some film on a offense designed for his skillset -- his running game will come back to earth as well. He'll still make a lot of plays with his legs, but won't be racking up nearly 1000yd/season as his current averages suggest.

Here's to hoping he can deliver in the passing game before he gets beat up.

zdoor
01-03-2011, 01:16 PM
Probably already posted but liked this quote from Lloyd (stolen from DPO):

Lloyd gave his endorsement to Tebow as the Broncos' quarterback of the future, saying that it would help Tebow's confidence to go into the offseason as the starter.

"The intangibles — you probably won't see another quarterback with those kind of intangibles — the heart, the desire, the passion, the will to make one single play work, and then continue to do it," Lloyd said. "It's incredible. I think it's special, and once he gets the technical aspect of being a quarterback down, it's going to be unreal."


Read more: QB still work in progress - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16996371#ixzz1A0O3CrWO
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

Beantown Bronco
01-03-2011, 01:16 PM
Either our screen game is really rocking the house or Tebow is showing he can put it down the field. Honestly it's probably both. He's opened up both aspects of the game in ways Orton never could.

Let's not get carried away now. Orton was leading the league for most of the year in deep passing plays.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 01:42 PM
Fair enough.

So lets just get this out of the way so we can put an end to the argument.

What do you think the Broncos should do, from a personnel standpoint, and given current team needs/draft position, at the quarterback position?

Cool... That is more fun.

First and foremost, pray that someone is in love with someone to make #2 tradeable. We need picks and plenty. If not, I am not sure but maybe Peterson. Havent watched enough on him to endorse yet.

QB:
I at least sniff around what the price is for Luck. CAR may have their own impressive Tebowner and would take #2 and Tebow for Luck. I would offer bit more but not much. And in the end, that probably doesnt get it done so we ride out Tebow and watch him put us in contention for the next 4-5 year for the division (skipping next year). I stand by the shortened career line of thinking....

As for the rest of the team...
Misc O:
On OL, we need to re-eval everyone but Clady. Walton and Beatles probably have to get another year by default and I am not sold on Kuper although we are paying like that so I guess he is staying. I would be looking for Harris replacement, esp now that he is blind side for Tebow.

Further on O, I love Thomas but if he remains injury prone, then you need a WR of similar physical stature since nobody else has that in our corp.

Deperately need TE that could be Tebow security blanket but to be honest, I havent read up much on the prospects since McD system wasnt TE friendly. But havent looked since McD was fired.

Need another back with Knowshon. Would see if we could get Williams or Stewart from CAR. They cant keep all 3 (Goodsen). Buck, Maroney, Ball and White can all GTFU.

Defense:
The only starter(s) on D is Doom and Champ. Champ wont be resigned (bad move IMO) so that leaves with 10 potential positions to change over for starts. You cant do that in 1 year so you probably end up with guys like Cox & Ayers starting next year. Not ready to declare Ayers a bust. But fear that is coming.

Would love to trade DJ if we could get a 3rd for him and had a DL/ILB we highly covet available. Wouldnt mind Dhani Jones as an FA replacement for DJ or next to DJ if he cant get good trade value for him.

Unless you see some great 3-4 DL talent in the draft, I think for now you focus just working with what you have and adding the largest humans possible to the rotation. Emulate Bmore and mostly just occupy the opposing OL and let your LB make plays (yes, Bmore DL is more than that though). Would have loved Mt Cody last year...

Very interested in getting S at #34. Moore would be a steal there. Picks of interest include S, CB, ILB, OLB (Doom compliment) and only a DL guy you think has a chance to be more than just part of the rotation.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 01:44 PM
Here's to hoping he can deliver in the passing game before he gets beat up.

Welcome to the group known as the Haters. If you dont believe he is the answer then you arent watching hard enough:spit:

Mile High Shack
01-03-2011, 01:57 PM
Welcome to the group known as the Haters. If you dont believe he is the answer then you arent watching hard enough:spit:

no, he is hoping he can develop, you are on record as saying he has no chance and thinks he can only be an H back in this league

so no, don't try to lump him in with you

there is no one saying he's going to be an NFL all timer, but I think he can be good enough to lead a team in the playoffs

frerottenextelway
01-03-2011, 02:00 PM
People can tell the haters from the non-haters, and saying Tebow has areas he needs to improve in isn't the hating.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 02:02 PM
no, he is hoping he can develop, you are on record as saying he has no chance and thinks he can only be an H back in this league

so no, don't try to lump him in with you

Pre-draft last year, that is exactly what I thought. And I was dead wrong about him not being able to play QB at passable level. Was he worth equivalent of what we got for BMarsh? Not sure yet but still dont think so.

And there still could be an arguement for Tebow to be a dominating H-Back that gets a few wrinkle plays per game where he throws. I think it would be a longer career... But that boat has sailed so no point digging into it.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 02:06 PM
People can tell the haters from the non-haters, and saying Tebow has areas he needs to improve in isn't the hating.

What about has "area XYZ" to improve and doesnt think he will be able to improve it enough to take us to the next level. That's where I am and XYZ is pocket passing or more crudely put, succeeding outside of running what amounts to a derivations of Gator football.

Maybe I'm slow and have a tebowner disfunction. When I see otherwise, I got no problem standing up and saying, 'called that one wrong.' Its OK...

footstepsfrom#27
01-03-2011, 02:06 PM
Tebow's already learning to run out of bounds rather than try for a meaningless extra yard, so I don't get the fear that he'll be beaten up in the NFL. The guy's mobility only gives him the opportunity to avoid punishment if he keeps that mentality. In any case he's built like a fullback I think he'll survive the physical side better than just about any QB out there. Once he really learns what he's doing with some of these defensive reads, he's going to get more accurate as he gets better in this offense. Even Orton didn't start to really thrive in this offense till his second year. Then again we don't even know what system we're in next season...

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 02:12 PM
Tebow's already learning to run out of bounds rather than try for a meaningless extra yard, so I don't get the fear that he'll be beaten up in the NFL. The guy's mobility only gives him the opportunity to avoid punishment if he keeps that mentality. In any case he's built like a fullback I think he'll survive the physical side better than just about any QB out there. Once he really learns what he's doing with some of these defensive reads, he's going to get more accurate as he gets better in this offense. Even Orton didn't start to really thrive in this offense till his second year. Then again we don't even know what system we're in next season...

How does this jive with the notion that there has never been successful modern NFL QB that averages about 10 carries per game with the Vick exception isnt looking to lower his shoulder.

Are you foreseeing a paradigm shift in the NFL? Or is simply luck that nobody has had a talent like Tebow run this type of offense?

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 02:16 PM
Let's not get carried away now. Orton was leading the league for most of the year in deep passing plays.

Poor wording on my part. Just meant that as good as Orton was he didn't have the ability to open up both aspects of the game at once as Tebow has done so far. Our deep ball remains strong but our screen game has become extremely effective with Tebow.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 02:17 PM
Our deep ball remains strong but our screen game has become extremely effective with Tebow.

Did you check with jhns?:notworthy

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 02:17 PM
How does this jive with the notion that there has never been successful modern NFL QB that averages about 10 carries per game with the Vick exception isnt looking to lower his shoulder.

Are you foreseeing a paradigm shift in the NFL? Or is simply luck that nobody has had a talent like Tebow run this type of offense?

Why do you think he will continue to average ten carries a game? All we have to do is get rid of the moronic up the gut runs when everybody is expecting it and that will drastically reduce his carries.

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 02:19 PM
Did you check with jhns?:notworthy

On our legitimate screens, as in letting the defense past the blockers, we have been far more effective with Tebow. A short throw is not automatically a screen.

jhns
01-03-2011, 02:22 PM
How does this jive with the notion that there has never been successful modern NFL QB that averages about 10 carries per game with the Vick exception isnt looking to lower his shoulder.

Are you foreseeing a paradigm shift in the NFL? Or is simply luck that nobody has had a talent like Tebow run this type of offense?

There have been. Where you are getting lost is that those QBs stopped rushing as much as they learned to pass better. You are making this weird assumption that this won't happen with Tebow.

Why exactly do you think he can't develope as a passer and run less?

jhns
01-03-2011, 02:38 PM
Also, Steve Young, who is much smaller than Tebow, ran for 5+ times a game in many of his seasons. He ran for tons of TDs over his career. He is just one of the QBs that didn't have a short career due to running being a big part of his game. Elway did the same. He didn't exactly avoid contact either. I'm sure we all have seen the helicopter.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 02:40 PM
On our legitimate screens, as in letting the defense past the blockers, we have been far more effective with Tebow. A short throw is not automatically a screen.

Get over it already. I am talking about the play we run seems like at least once per series where is quick step and right over to the WR from a trips formation and the other 2 block that usually produces 3-7 yards. Everyone I know calls that a WR screen. And we run many (top 5) if not the the MOST (NE close too). And last season, when we never threw deep, we had to have set an NFL record that play.

We can get jhns to verify this for us. he has the game tape and all the stats

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 02:42 PM
Also, Steve Young, who is much smaller than Tebow, ran for 5+ times a game in many of his seasons. He ran for tons of TDs over his career. He is just one of the QBs that didn't have a short career due to running being a big part of his game. Elway did the same. He didn't exactly avoid contact either. I'm sure we all have seen the helicopter.

You know, I have to give you Steve Young. Cant knock it too much. Probably closest example of where Tebow can take his game lefty and all. My only barb would be that I dont recall Young initiating contact like Tebow has done initially.

But I have now been assured we wont call those plays anymore, even though they were some of the most successful and in many cases, drive saving plays!

*Edit - Steve Young Career reg season starts: 169
Number of games with 10 or more carries: 7 by my count

Tebow Starts: 3
10+: 2

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 02:45 PM
Why exactly do you think he can't develope as a passer and run less?

Because one of Tebow's best assets (an intangible i guess), is making something out of nothing. I see him continuing to have an element to his game where he doesnt see what he wants and just takes off. And see more continued designed runs as long as the keep working.

Missouribronc
01-03-2011, 02:46 PM
You know, I have to give you Steve Young. Cant knock it too much. Probably closest example of where Tebow can take his game lefty and all. My only barb would be that I dont recall Young initiating contact like Tebow has done initially.

But I have now been assured we wont call those plays anymore, even though they were some of the most successful and in many cases, drive saving plays!

That's because Young was 6-2, 215. Tebow is 6-3, 245.

I think the 30-pound difference is probably the reason you didn't see Young initiating contact.

Rohirrim
01-03-2011, 02:48 PM
Here's my question: Why does Tebow spend all that time sitting in an ice bath? I watched this film on him showing his insane training regimen (hitting truck tires with sledge hammers, etc.) and one of the things he does is work out really hard and then sit in an ice bath. He says he manages to sit in it for seven minutes. What's that all about?

frerottenextelway
01-03-2011, 02:51 PM
McNair ran a lot, had 100 carries his first year starting. Seemed to be a lot of physical carries with him too.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 02:55 PM
That's because Young was 6-2, 215. Tebow is 6-3, 245.

I think the 30-pound difference is probably the reason you didn't see Young initiating contact.

Well good... As long as he can become the passer Steve Young was, we are good to go. Yes, while Young was a threat to run, he primarily a prolific passer. At this point, we cant say that about Tebow.

How many people really think he will have a career anywhere near Steve Young? That would be awesome.

colonelbeef
01-03-2011, 02:58 PM
This is what Vick haters hear and he has the Eagles in the playoffs at home so who cares? They can talk about how their yards and TD's "don't count" while their team is at home.

Can say the same about the Cutler haters :strong:

Rohirrim
01-03-2011, 02:59 PM
Vick has done something that deserves hate.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 03:00 PM
McNair ran a lot, had 100 carries his first year starting. Seemed to be a lot of physical carries with him too.

That is a good fit running but you cant argue that it was successful. That team was 8-8 and McNair didnt exactly have impressive stat line. But to credit what others have been telling me, he rushed less and passed more in subsequent years and was marginally more successful (in terms of W/L).

Had several runs in 1999 year to the SB. So again, another point against me. I would have to say that Tebow's upside is questionable in my mind but I expect him to get to a better level than McNair was as a passer

Maybe that rush of blood is finally going to reach my Tebowner...

Chris
01-03-2011, 03:04 PM
Here's my question: Why does Tebow spend all that time sitting in an ice bath? I watched this film on him showing his insane training regimen (hitting truck tires with sledge hammers, etc.) and one of the things he does is work out really hard and then sit in an ice bath. He says he manages to sit in it for seven minutes. What's that all about?

Well many NFL players do this after a game to reduce the amount of bruising / swelling that comes up the next day. As far as post workout goes... I'm not sure.

Tombstone RJ
01-03-2011, 03:07 PM
Here's my question: Why does Tebow spend all that time sitting in an ice bath? I watched this film on him showing his insane training regimen (hitting truck tires with sledge hammers, etc.) and one of the things he does is work out really hard and then sit in an ice bath. He says he manages to sit in it for seven minutes. What's that all about?

That's known as polar bearing. It helps with circulation.

colonelbeef
01-03-2011, 03:12 PM
McNair ran a lot, had 100 carries his first year starting. Seemed to be a lot of physical carries with him too.

I like the McNair comparison a lot. Young was more like Vick, smaller and more of a scat back, whereas Tebow has some speed but is much more of a bruiser.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 03:17 PM
I like the McNair comparison a lot. Young was more like Vick, smaller and more of a scat back, whereas Tebow has some speed but is much more of a bruiser.

Yeah, actually I am warming more to this idea just thinking about it more and more. Although McNair's game was heavy passing at Alcorn St but at that level of comp, hard to say it really means much. Probably the best Tebow comp.

You have to still label me more on the skeptical side but, I can now more clearly see a plausible path with Tebow.

Tombstone RJ
01-03-2011, 03:20 PM
I made up the whole polar bearing thingy, but I'm sure it has something to do with swelling.

frerottenextelway
01-03-2011, 03:38 PM
Yeah, actually I am warming more to this idea just thinking about it more and more.

You have to still label me more on the skeptical side but, I can now more clearly see a plausible path with Tebow.

Welcome to the cult. ;)

zdoor
01-03-2011, 03:39 PM
Here's my question: Why does Tebow spend all that time sitting in an ice bath? I watched this film on him showing his insane training regimen (hitting truck tires with sledge hammers, etc.) and one of the things he does is work out really hard and then sit in an ice bath. He says he manages to sit in it for seven minutes. What's that all about?

There are several theories to the benefits of ice baths in resistance training and all of them pretty much revolve around shortening recovery time allowing increasing volume without overtraining.

One theory is when an ice bath is taken, it slows the heart rate and pulse quickly reducing the effect of lactic acid developed during a workout being pumped around the body causing your muscles to be stiff, sore and tired.

Another theory is with an ice bath you are actually trying to remove any excess lactic acid and other toxins from the muscle. When you exit the ice bath and return your body to normal temperature the brain reacts by trying to return the blood flow in the area back to normal. Theoretically, in practice the blood flow is over-compensated and too much blood is sent which then causes another adjustment. The idea is this mechanism creates a kind of pulsating of blood flow which should in theory help remove toxins and generate a higher blood flow to aid the healing process.

I've known several college-level athletes and pro bodybuilders who believe strongly in ice training as an aid to training. It's hard to say whether it really works but no doubt it aids in reducing soreness on many levels and I've often used it myself to recover from injuries at various times. Most guy's who train at really high levels will use just about any type of "edge" to allow themselves to do a little more than most...

Tombstone RJ
01-03-2011, 03:44 PM
There are several theories to the benefits of ice baths in resistance training and all of them pretty much revolve around shortening recovery time allowing increasing volume without overtraining.

One theory is when an ice bath is taken, it slows the heart rate and pulse quickly reducing the effect of lactic acid developed during a workout being pumped around the body causing your muscles to be stiff, sore and tired.

Another theory is with an ice bath you are actually trying to remove any excess lactic acid and other toxins from the muscle. When you exit the ice bath and return your body to normal temperature the brain reacts by trying to return the blood flow in the area back to normal. Theoretically, in practice the blood flow is over-compensated and too much blood is sent which then causes another adjustment. The idea is this mechanism creates a kind of pulsating of blood flow which should in theory help remove toxins and generate a higher blood flow to aid the healing process.

I've known several college-level athletes and pro bodybuilders who believe strongly in ice training as an aid to training. It's hard to say whether it really works but no doubt it aids in reducing soreness on many levels and I've often used it myself to recover from injuries at various times. Most guy's who train at really high levels will use just about any type of "edge" to allow themselves to do a little more than most...

It's known as polar bearing. It's helps with circulation. :wiggle:

TailgateNut
01-03-2011, 03:44 PM
Here's my question: Why does Tebow spend all that time sitting in an ice bath? I watched this film on him showing his insane training regimen (hitting truck tires with sledge hammers, etc.) and one of the things he does is work out really hard and then sit in an ice bath. He says he manages to sit in it for seven minutes. What's that all about?


Blue balls!

Rohirrim
01-03-2011, 03:46 PM
There are several theories to the benefits of ice baths in resistance training and all of them pretty much revolve around shortening recovery time allowing increasing volume without overtraining.

One theory is when an ice bath is taken, it slows the heart rate and pulse quickly reducing the effect of lactic acid developed during a workout being pumped around the body causing your muscles to be stiff, sore and tired.

Another theory is with an ice bath you are actually trying to remove any excess lactic acid and other toxins from the muscle. When you exit the ice bath and return your body to normal temperature the brain reacts by trying to return the blood flow in the area back to normal. Theoretically, in practice the blood flow is over-compensated and too much blood is sent which then causes another adjustment. The idea is this mechanism creates a kind of pulsating of blood flow which should in theory help remove toxins and generate a higher blood flow to aid the healing process.

I've known several college-level athletes and pro bodybuilders who believe strongly in ice training as an aid to training. It's hard to say whether it really works but no doubt it aids in reducing soreness on many levels and I've often used it myself to recover from injuries at various times. Most guy's who train at really high levels will use just about any type of "edge" to allow themselves to do a little more than most...

Thanks. They had video of him sitting in the thing. Didn't look like fun to me. ;D

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 03:51 PM
Get over it already. I am talking about the play we run seems like at least once per series where is quick step and right over to the WR from a trips formation and the other 2 block that usually produces 3-7 yards. Everyone I know calls that a WR screen. And we run many (top 5) if not the the MOST (NE close too). And last season, when we never threw deep, we had to have set an NFL record that play.

We can get jhns to verify this for us. he has the game tape and all the stats

So what exactly is your point?

Last year is irrelevant and now this year is irrelevant in regards to what plays we called. Last year we didn't throw deep. This year we could have lead the league in throwing deep.

I didn't pay close enough attention. Was there a point or was it really just an argument over the definition of a screen pass?

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 03:55 PM
So what exactly is your point?

Last year is irrelevant and now this year is irrelevant in regards to what plays we called. Last year we didn't throw deep. This year we could have lead the league in throwing deep.

I didn't pay close enough attention. Was there a point or was it really just an argument over the definition of a screen pass?

Simply that I am not sold on Tebow as QBOTF, but with some good debate, I am more optimistic than I was on the first post. Still a skeptic, just less... I see a path, but it is still a path that requires Tebow to be better drop back passer and there I see more faith than evidence of his capability of doing it.

And I am more willing to ride a year out of Tebow and see what happens.

Doggcow
01-03-2011, 03:57 PM
Simply that I am not sold on Tebow as QBOTF, but with some good debate, I am more optimistic than I was on the first post. Still a skeptic, just less... I see a path, but it is still a path that requires Tebow to be better drop back passer and there I see more faith than evidence of his capability of doing it.

He is a rookie. He will develop more in the next few years. The things people see in tebow are his ability, and drive, and all around makes-whole-team-better-ness.

TailgateNut
01-03-2011, 04:01 PM
He is a rookie. He will develop more in the next few years. The things people see in tebow are his ability, and drive, and all around makes-whole-team-better-ness.

Especially his Shot-Put throws! They're awesome. Wind up and chuck!

I think he'd be a great tight end or maybe a HB.

zdoor
01-03-2011, 04:01 PM
Simply that I am not sold on Tebow as QBOTF, but with some good debate, I am more optimistic than I was on the first post. Still a skeptic, just less... I see a path, but it is still a path that requires Tebow to be better drop back passer and there I see more faith than evidence of his capability of doing it.

Well, whether or not you are sold yet there is little doubt he will work at 150% to get as good as he can be. I'm excited to have a guy with that kind of work ethic and passion for the game as our potential QBOTF. He may fail but I will be rooting for the guy the whole way.

Rohirrim
01-03-2011, 04:05 PM
Especially his Shot-Put throws! They're awesome. Wind up and chuck!

I think he'd be a great tight end or maybe a HB.

If we get Harbaugh and Luck, Tebow can be our Marecic. :thumbs:

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 04:11 PM
Well, whether or not you are sold yet there is little doubt he will work at 150% to get as good as he can be. I'm excited to have a guy with that kind of work ethic and passion for the game as our potential QBOTF. He may fail but I will be rooting for the guy the whole way.

Forgive me if I dont find that part of the rah-rah stuff compelling...

Doggcow
01-03-2011, 04:12 PM
Especially his Shot-Put throws! They're awesome. Wind up and chuck!

I think he'd be a great tight end or maybe a HB.

Does it matter that much? He creates so much more time with his legs, that he the amount of time he has to throw is like 10x what Orton or other QB's have.

TailgateNut
01-03-2011, 04:13 PM
If we get Harbaugh and Luck, Tebow can be our Marecic. :thumbs:

Works for me. I just don't see him making it as a full time starting QB in the NFL. He's stop-gap and the only reason he's starting right now is because he can run like a scared chicken.
I can't believe how gullible this fanbase has become. I thought I was watching a gator game (or any college game) yesterday (on the field and in the stands). That **** isn't going to cut it in the NFL.
The only damn reason he's had any success is because teams don't have any film on the kid.

bendog
01-03-2011, 04:40 PM
Forgive me if I dont find that part of the rah-rah stuff compelling...

why not? you prefer Jeff George or Ryan Leaf? People wrote off Drew Brees.

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 04:47 PM
Forgive me if I dont find that part of the rah-rah stuff compelling...

Well it matters. The QB with the most success in Denver since Elway was Plummer and he was probably the worst pure Quarterback out of that bunch. But guys loved him and would do anything for him. We have that in Tebow but Tebow is also willing to put in all that extra work that Plummer couldn't ever be bothered with. Also, Tebow can actually throw a football.

Requiem
01-03-2011, 05:04 PM
I guess rushing yards didn't matter for Randall Cunningham, Steve McNair and Michael Vick either. :(

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 07:23 PM
I guess rushing yards didn't matter for Randall Cunningham, Steve McNair and Michael Vick either. :(

Sure they do. It helped them be successful in the NFL. Nobody has posted in here that we should overlook that. So you defeated an argument presented by nobody.

I think what has been posted is that there have been few who you could compare Tebow to style wise. These fit as does Steve Young. I agree with who posted that McNair was most similar. Both McNair and Young made it to the SB so that is the refutation of the idea that Tebow's style cant take us all the way, which I posted but now I cant argue with that data.

From a ceiling standpoint, I see Tebow likely to be a better passer than McNair was, but asking him to get remotely close to Young's level (who was helped by an amazing cast) is a bit much. Some have the faith, many blindly,.... and others have some skepticism, myself included.

I think many are latching on to the most positive thing possible after watching probably the worst Broncos team and general episode (McD) ever.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 07:26 PM
Well it matters. The QB with the most success in Denver since Elway was Plummer and he was probably the worst pure Quarterback out of that bunch. But guys loved him and would do anything for him. We have that in Tebow but Tebow is also willing to put in all that extra work that Plummer couldn't ever be bothered with. Also, Tebow can actually throw a football.

That's great because clearly nobody else in the league works hard at their craft to become better. In Tebow, we have the first ever player who can simply out-want-it over the competition. Good to know.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-03-2011, 07:35 PM
why not? you prefer Jeff George or Ryan Leaf? People wrote off Drew Brees.

I am saying that that the added intangible that he wants it & will work tirelessly is certainly nice and I would rather have it than not. Nobody is questioning his immense intangibles.

There are questions about his ability to drop back and pass the ball 35 times when the team needs him to. It will have to happen at some point if our goal is to win a championship, especially as long as our running game as inept as it is. Some have seen enough to say that he will do it be able to do it. Some think he could do it now which is nonsense. I haven't seen enough on the field to be convinced. And nobody has posted anything outside convincing reason why he will be able to outside of Young was able to do it and Tebow wants to do it really bad. Sorry but that sounds like homerism to me.

El Minion
01-03-2011, 08:14 PM
There are several theories to the benefits of ice baths in resistance training and all of them pretty much revolve around shortening recovery time allowing increasing volume without overtraining.

One theory is when an ice bath is taken, it slows the heart rate and pulse quickly reducing the effect of lactic acid developed during a workout being pumped around the body causing your muscles to be stiff, sore and tired.

Another theory is with an ice bath you are actually trying to remove any excess lactic acid and other toxins from the muscle. When you exit the ice bath and return your body to normal temperature the brain reacts by trying to return the blood flow in the area back to normal. Theoretically, in practice the blood flow is over-compensated and too much blood is sent which then causes another adjustment. The idea is this mechanism creates a kind of pulsating of blood flow which should in theory help remove toxins and generate a higher blood flow to aid the healing process.

I've known several college-level athletes and pro bodybuilders who believe strongly in ice training as an aid to training. It's hard to say whether it really works but no doubt it aids in reducing soreness on many levels and I've often used it myself to recover from injuries at various times. Most guy's who train at really high levels will use just about any type of "edge" to allow themselves to do a little more than most...

Interesting, IIRC, I read an article a few years ago about a couple of Stanford researchers doing some research for the military I think about fatigue and ways to combat it and reduce it. What they came up with was a glove attached to there experimental apparatus that one wears that reduces their blood temperature so that when excessive exertion raises your body's temperature the glove counteracts and regulates your body's temperature so that you don't overheat and you can continue with extended periods of physical exertion at peak performance. So if one could only do pull-ups for 5 minutes before tiring, for example, after wearing the glove he would be able to continue doing the exercise for like over an hour.

It was also able to allow someone in extreme cold to not be in any discomfort, the glove allowed your body temps to be acclimated to the surrounding cold. They even had the reporter sit in an ice bath at first normally with his body naturally reacting negatively to the cold and then activated the glove and he reported to feeling only mild slight discomfort in the ice bath, as if he was in room with a cool breeze flowing over him.

Crazy

snowspot66
01-03-2011, 08:26 PM
That's great because clearly nobody else in the league works hard at their craft to become better. In Tebow, we have the first ever player who can simply out-want-it over the competition. Good to know.

That wasn't the point but do you honestly believe Tebow won't try to work harder than anybody to get better?

And it is common knowledge that Plummer was only in it for Sunday. Monday through Saturday was a grind he couldn't stand. Tebow actually enjoys that grind. That is hugely important.

Peyton Manning isn't great because he's an amazing athlete. He's great because he loves football and immerses himself in football like no other. I'd swear he was autistic but instead of numbers it's football with him.