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broncoblue
01-02-2011, 02:03 PM
that td (first....only i hope) by the chugs is why imho we need to sort the D in the draft and not Luck.

Dagmar
01-02-2011, 02:07 PM
Defense all the way.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-02-2011, 02:08 PM
I'd take defense, but if Luck falls to us at 2, it's AWFULLY hard to pass him up.

broncoblue
01-02-2011, 02:12 PM
if he falls ,take him and say listen who wants him..and get more D .! ;)

snowspot66
01-02-2011, 02:12 PM
Defense. Defense. Defense. Four weeks ago I would have been on the fence. But I think we've seen enough from Tebow to say that we need to give him a chance.

Garcia Bronco
01-02-2011, 02:12 PM
Defensive or Offensive LINE or Badass TE or Badass Saftey.

TDmvp
01-02-2011, 02:13 PM
Anything on D and no Qb...

Natedog24
01-02-2011, 02:15 PM
I'd take defense, but if Luck falls to us at 2, it's AWFULLY hard to pass him up.

Agreed... You have to consider what a QB driven league the NFL is. As much as I love the way that Tebow is playing right now he still has a long way to go as a passer, its very tempting to go with Luck who looks about as low risk a QB prospect to ever come out of College. I'd still personally go defense though because I think Tebow is going to be a great QB.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-02-2011, 02:24 PM
Defense. Defense. Defense. Four weeks ago I would have been on the fence. But I think we've seen enough from Tebow to say that we need to give him a chance.

Really?

snowspot66
01-02-2011, 02:26 PM
Really?

Yes really. He's a rookie QB, he's made some great throws, he has all the intangibles. What more do you want?

footstepsfrom#27
01-02-2011, 02:38 PM
if he falls ,take him and say listen who wants him..and get more D .! ;)
This

Mile High Shack
01-02-2011, 02:45 PM
if he even comes out, he's not going any lower than #1

OrangeCrush2724
01-02-2011, 02:47 PM
Agreed... You have to consider what a QB driven league the NFL is. As much as I love the way that Tebow is playing right now he still has a long way to go as a passer, its very tempting to go with Luck who looks about as low risk a QB prospect to ever come out of College. I'd still personally go defense though because I think Tebow is going to be a great QB.

I agree. Taking Luck will set us back a couple of years. But you can't pass on a "Manning" type of player, regardless of how much you need defense. The Colts have gone to the playoffs 9 straight years now...and thats not a coincidence. Tebow has showed potential, but thats about it. Can he sit back in the pocket and throw, I'm still not sure. I do know that if we play a great defense (who contains the rollouts and qb sneaks) Tebow will be in for a long day, plummer style.

ayjackson
01-02-2011, 02:48 PM
I`d give up our no.1 and Tebow....but no more. Might want a future conditional pick as well.

When you have a reasonable chance at a QB like Luck, you have to take it.

ayjackson
01-02-2011, 02:50 PM
I agree. Taking Luck will set us back a couple of years. But you can't pass on a "Manning" type of player, regardless of how much you need defense. The Colts have gone to the playoffs 9 straight years now...and thats not a coincidence. Tebow has showed potential, but thats about it. Can he sit back in the pocket and throw, I'm still not sure. I do know that if we play a great defense (who contains the rollouts and qb sneaks) Tebow will be in for a long day, plummer style.

Yeah, I don`t know how much we can be set back from 4-12. Bradford hasn`t set StL back at all.

Mile High Shack
01-02-2011, 02:50 PM
seriously you guys, you mine as well talk about winning a million dollars

LUCK IS NOT FALLING PAST #1, good grief, get it through your heads - assuming he even comes out

zdoor
01-02-2011, 02:58 PM
Depends on what is offered for him

OrangeCrush2724
01-02-2011, 02:58 PM
Yeah, I don`t know how much we can be set back from 4-12. Bradford hasn`t set StL back at all.

What I meant by that comment was that picking Luck we might be set couple of years back (not because of his rookie growing pains, but because by picking defense we might be better in the short run, but not in the long run).

maven
01-02-2011, 02:59 PM
that td (first....only i hope) by the chugs is why imho we need to sort the D in the draft and not Luck.

No, I'll take Luck.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-02-2011, 03:04 PM
Defense. Defense. Defense. Four weeks ago I would have been on the fence. But I think we've seen enough from Tebow to say that we need to give him a chance.

he's now completed 1/3 of his passes. He has two picks and one touchdown.

But we should avoid a top notch QB if he falls to us in the draft.

:strong:

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-02-2011, 03:04 PM
Yes really. He's a rookie QB, he's made some great throws, he has all the intangibles. What more do you want?

Where are those great throws today? I only ask because they seem to be missing.

Prodigal19
01-02-2011, 03:05 PM
Id definitely take luck but theres no way he falls to us

snowspot66
01-02-2011, 03:06 PM
Where are those great throws today? I only ask because they seem to be missing.

Holy **** a rookie QB having a rough day against one of the top defenses in the league. That never happens!

CEH
01-02-2011, 03:06 PM
36 points by SD and we get to call this defense the worst in Broncos history since the 16 game schedule

Gee let's trade more picks for offense

Mile High Shack
01-02-2011, 03:08 PM
36 points by SD and we get to call this defense the worst in Broncos history since the 16 game schedule

Gee let's trade more picks for offense

this, for crying out loud people

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-02-2011, 03:10 PM
Holy **** a rookie QB having a rough day against one of the top defenses in the league. That never happens!

Holy ****, people giving him a pass because he has a 300 yard day against one of the league's worst defenses. That never happens.

I think you've got to take a long look at Luck. You have to consider it.

snowspot66
01-02-2011, 03:11 PM
Why did it have to be Grahm to catch that. Anybody else and maybe they break a tackle.

snowspot66
01-02-2011, 03:12 PM
Holy ****, people giving him a pass because he has a 300 yard day against one of the league's worst defenses. That never happens.

I think you've got to take a long look at Luck. You have to consider it.

No we don't. We need defense. Badly.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-02-2011, 03:15 PM
No we don't. We need defense. Badly.

Our quarterback has completed how many passes today? I'd say we need a host of things. This is a QB league. Tim Tebow is playing like an H-Back.

Mile High Shack
01-02-2011, 03:16 PM
Our quarterback has completed how many passes today? I'd say we need a host of things. This is a QB league. Tim Tebow is playing like an H-Back.

he almost looks as bad as Orton did when we played the Bolts earlier this year

snowspot66
01-02-2011, 03:18 PM
Our quarterback has completed how many passes today? I'd say we need a host of things. This is a QB league. Tim Tebow is playing like an H-Back.

He's a rookie QB having a poor, not horrible, day against one of the leagues top defenses. That happens.

No reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

He's the most productive college player EVER. We'd be fools to not at least try him out and attempt to build a team around him.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-02-2011, 03:19 PM
he almost looks as bad as Orton did when we played the Bolts earlier this year

Yet people defend him like there's nothing wrong. It's the polar opposite of what took place with Orton in that way.

Mile High Shack
01-02-2011, 03:19 PM
Yet people defend him like there's nothing wrong. It's the polar opposite of what took place with Orton in that way.

he's a rookie in his 3rd start you moron

maven
01-02-2011, 03:19 PM
No we don't. We need defense. Badly.

This team needs everything.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-02-2011, 03:20 PM
He's a rookie QB having a poor, not horrible, day against one of the leagues top defenses. That happens.

No reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

/facepalm

And we have a chance to move up and draft a can't-miss pro-style QB. But we're not supposed to because "tebow has shown us enough." I disagree.

But to each his own, I guess.

This is a defense we play twice a year. A team we have to beat. We need the excuses to stop and the good plays to begin.

Broncos4Life
01-02-2011, 03:20 PM
You people calling for luck are straight up stupid! Get over it! Its not gonna happen!

snowspot66
01-02-2011, 03:20 PM
Yet people defend him like there's nothing wrong. It's the polar opposite of what took place with Orton in that way.

That is ****ing bull****. People want to see what he's capable of and build a legitimate defense in Denver since the early half of the previous decade.

snowspot66
01-02-2011, 03:21 PM
/facepalm

And we have a chance to move up and draft a can't-miss pro-style QB. But we're not supposed to because "tebow has shown us enough." I disagree.

But to each his own, I guess.

This is a defense we play twice a year. A team we have to beat. We need the excuses to stop and the good plays to begin.

And that is bull**** too.

maven
01-02-2011, 03:22 PM
You people calling for luck are straight up stupid! Get over it! Its not gonna happen!

How the **** do you know? The draft is 4 months away and I haven't seen this org slobbering all over Tebow's nuts.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-02-2011, 03:23 PM
That is ****ing bull****. People want to see what he's capable of and build a legitimate defense in Denver since the early half of the previous decade.

Wrong. You're defending him, using last week's performance to justify this week's. It doesn't work that way.

The more he plays, the more questions arise. But let's pass on a great prospect for a guy who is a TOTAL project with obviously a LONG way to go.

Last time I checked, there was more than one round in the NFL draft.

maven
01-02-2011, 03:25 PM
Last time I checked, there was more than one round in the NFL draft.

Some people clearly cannot understand stand this. This team needs multiple drafts to get out of the gutter.

Mile High Shack
01-02-2011, 03:28 PM
Wrong. You're defending him, using last week's performance to justify this week's. It doesn't work that way.

The more he plays, the more questions arise. But let's pass on a great prospect for a guy who is a TOTAL project with obviously a LONG way to go.

Last time I checked, there was more than one round in the NFL draft.

wait..what? Did you say something?

I think Tebow just took the offense on his back and got us a TD

snowspot66
01-02-2011, 03:29 PM
Wrong. You're defending him, using last week's performance to justify this week's. It doesn't work that way.

The more he plays, the more questions arise. But let's pass on a great prospect for a guy who is a TOTAL project with obviously a LONG way to go.

Last time I checked, there was more than one round in the NFL draft.

Bull****. I haven't even referenced that game. What I have referenced is him stepping up and making throws that he needs to make in the pros. Yeah he's had a rough game this week. But that doesn't eliminate his ability to make those throws and you act as if he can't improve at all. Everybody has commented on how improved he's been in just one season of back up duty.

Luck can't beat him in mobility. Luck can't beat him in passion or desire. Luck can't beat him in physical strength. Luck can't beat him in college production. He can at best match those attributes Luck has only mechanics to hold over Tebow.

At this point in time BOTH QB's are as likely to succeed as any top QB prospect. Why would we give up resources to get a new QB when we so desperately need defense.

serious hops
01-02-2011, 03:29 PM
Defense, please. Regardless of who we have playing quarterback, we're not going to be successful if we need them to put up thirty-plus every frickin' week.

Broncos4Life
01-02-2011, 03:31 PM
How the **** do you know? The draft is 4 months away and I haven't seen this org slobbering all over Tebow's nuts.

So you think taking another qb is gonna turn this team around? Plenty of holes to fill, and its obvious that qb is not one. Mock would be having a fit with this thread!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-02-2011, 03:35 PM
So you think taking another qb is gonna turn this team around? Plenty of holes to fill, and its obvious that qb is not one. Mock would be having a fit with this thread!

QB isn't a hole to fill? Are you ****ing kidding me?

Are you even watching the same game?

As for his touchdown, neato. He's still thrown two picks, and that entire drive was predicated on him running the ball. That is not going to cut it week in/week out in the NFL. I'm sorry. I know this is going to break snowspot's heart. But your boy STILL has MILES to go to become a competent pro QB. And I'm saying this as someone who LIKES his intangibles and competitive fire.

maven
01-02-2011, 03:38 PM
So you think taking another qb is gonna turn this team around? Plenty of holes to fill, and its obvious that qb is not one. Mock would be having a fit with this thread!

If Luck is there I take him. If it's possible to make a trade I do it. This team has holes everywhere and it's going to take multiple drafts and offseasons to fix it.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-02-2011, 03:38 PM
For the record, I hope I'm wrong on Tebow. I really do. Because I don't think we have a shot at Luck without a trade up, and I don't want us to do that. But if he falls to 2, by some miracle...

Hey, a guy can dream.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-02-2011, 03:39 PM
QB isn't a hole to fill? Are you ****ing kidding me?

Are you even watching the same game?

As for his touchdown, neato. He's still thrown two picks, and that entire drive was predicated on him running the ball. That is not going to cut it week in/week out in the NFL. I'm sorry. I know this is going to break snowspot's heart. But your boy STILL has MILES to go to become a competent pro QB. And I'm saying this as someone who LIKES his intangibles and competitive fire.

He's playing poorly, but based on his 3 games as an NFL starter, im not sure you throw the baby out with the bathwater based solely on today. A lot of mistakes have been mental (and you have to assume those will ease over time), he's gotta work on the accuracy though. Arms plenty strong. There's something about him that i really like. I think with a strong defense, Tim could be the perfect QB for the Broncos.

CEH
01-02-2011, 03:40 PM
QB isn't a hole to fill? Are you ****ing kidding me?

Are you even watching the same game?

As for his touchdown, neato. He's still thrown two picks, and that entire drive was predicated on him running the ball. That is not going to cut it week in/week out in the NFL. I'm sorry. I know this is going to break snowspot's heart. But your boy STILL has MILES to go to become a competent pro QB. And I'm saying this as someone who LIKES his intangibles and competitive fire.

QB is not #1 on my list right now. 2nd a 22 on the 15 and the defense lets Sproles go for 25. Would have been nice to back SD up and make them punt don't u think no matter the QB.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-02-2011, 03:41 PM
He's playing poorly, but based on his 3 games as an NFL starter, im not sure you throw the baby out with the bathwater based solely on today. A lot of mistakes have been mental (and you have to assume those will ease over time), he's gotta work on the accuracy though. Arms plenty strong. There's something about him that i really like. I think with a strong defense, Tim could be the perfect QB for the Broncos.

I sincerely hope you're right.

serious hops
01-02-2011, 03:42 PM
If Luck is there I take him. If it's possible to make a trade I do it. This team has holes everywhere and it's going to take multiple drafts and offseasons to fix it.

How much would you give up? Would you include future picks? The Panthers aren't going to flip spots for the price of a third, and every good pick you have to package is one more hole elsewhere that won't get filled.

maven
01-02-2011, 03:45 PM
How much would you give up? Would you include future picks? The Panthers aren't going to flip spots for the price of a third, and every good pick you have to package is one more hole elsewhere that won't get filled.

I'm thinking two #1's, 3rd, and a player. I am think something around there.

BroncosSR
01-02-2011, 03:46 PM
Do whatever we can to acquire Luck, including offering Tebow.

snowspot66
01-02-2011, 03:47 PM
I'm thinking two #1's, 3rd, and a player. I am think something around there.

We don't have a player worth anything to send them. Unless you mean Tebow. Which means we'll have given them the equivalent of three #1's and a third.

That is not how you build a good team.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
01-02-2011, 03:54 PM
Anyone have their draft chart in front of them? What's the difference between the first and the second pick, points wise?

BroncosSR
01-02-2011, 03:54 PM
We don't have a player worth anything to send them. Unless you mean Tebow. Which means we'll have given them the equivalent of three #1's and a third.

That is not how you build a good team.

Just because Tebow was picked in the first doesn't equate the "equivalent" of a 1st round pick. Very few people had him going in the 1st round and he probably shouldn't have if it weren't for McDouche.

snowspot66
01-02-2011, 03:55 PM
Just because Tebow was picked in the first doesn't equate the "equivalent" of a 1st round pick. Very few people had him going in the 1st round and he probably shouldn't have if it weren't for McDouche.

We spent one on him so it's a first.

Broncos4Life
01-02-2011, 04:11 PM
QB isn't a hole to fill? Are you ****ing kidding me?

Are you even watching the same game?

As for his touchdown, neato. He's still thrown two picks, and that entire drive was predicated on him running the ball. That is not going to cut it week in/week out in the NFL. I'm sorry. I know this is going to break snowspot's heart. But your boy STILL has MILES to go to become a competent pro QB. And I'm saying this as someone who LIKES his intangibles and competitive fire.

Are you ****ing kidding me? Did Payton Manning ever have a rough game in his 3-13 rookie season, moron! He is not going to face top defensive units week in and week out either. ITS HIS 3RD GAME! I didn't know rookie qbs that play against Top 3 defenses were supposed light them up....

epicSocialism4tw
01-02-2011, 04:19 PM
We don't have a player worth anything to send them. Unless you mean Tebow. Which means we'll have given them the equivalent of three #1's and a third.

That is not how you build a good team.

Thats exactly how we became talent-deficient.

Its shocking that people want to do some more of that nonsense after the same thing dropped the bottom out of this franchise in less than two years.

manchambo
01-02-2011, 04:23 PM
I pass on luck. If im in position to get him I trade the pick.

Tebow has shown me enough to say you should do everything you can to improve the defense and give tebow a chance to run the offense.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 04:36 PM
Every single person on this thread that wants Luck is an imbecile. Period.

scttgrd
01-02-2011, 04:43 PM
Every single person on this thread that wants Luck is an imbecile. Period.

Just because you have a man crush on Tebow doesn't mean he is the future. If there is any chance at getting Luck or any NFL style QB, you do it. Going forward with a slow, poor mans Vick is not a long term solution.

ayjackson
01-02-2011, 04:43 PM
Thats exactly how we became talent-deficient.

Its shocking that people want to do some more of that nonsense after the same thing dropped the bottom out of this franchise in less than two years.

two years? where you been? we've been trending to this point for 6 years at least. We haven't had a defence in eons. Did McDaniels somehow become Shanny's scapegoat.

As far as Luck goes, the only way we get him is if he engineers the trade - hints strongly he'll go back to school rather than go to Carolina and Carolina takes the opportunity to switch picks and take Tebow.

No way I offer multiple picks for him.

jebures
01-02-2011, 04:44 PM
I sincerely hope you're right.

Peyton Manning had 28 ints his first year, tebow throws 2 more tds than ints and scores on 6 runs and you are saying he is crap. I am not sold either but jeezus you have high standards.

Broncosfreak_56
01-02-2011, 04:46 PM
Defense.

Los Broncos
01-02-2011, 04:46 PM
Defense, no doubt.

Likwid Kerruj
01-02-2011, 04:47 PM
The Broncos should take Luck if he falls to them.

He's younger and already miles ahead of Tebow as a passer.

mhgaffney
01-02-2011, 04:47 PM
I watched some of the Luck videos -- on the web. The guy is flat out amazing.

He is the next Elway -- with no weaknesses.

As well as Tebow has played -- we are on the horns of a dilemma.

Given that we pick second -- you have to wonder....

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 04:47 PM
Just because you have a man crush on Tebow doesn't mean he is the future. If there is any chance at getting Luck or any NFL style QB, you do it. Going forward with a slow, poor mans Vick is not a long term solution.

This isn't just about Tebow. This is about wasting the 2nd overall pick on another QB prospect when we have a sieve for a defense. We need to address our completely broken defense rather than drafting a "can't miss" prospect that has a very good chance of missing (top 3 picks used on QBs miss far more often than they hit).

If you think this is a good idea you are an imbecile. The point remains.

NYBronco
01-02-2011, 04:48 PM
This team needs defense and has for the past 5 years. Defense all the way. Tebow played well vs the leagues highly rated charger defense.

No to Luck!

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 04:49 PM
Just because you have a man crush on Tebow doesn't mean he is the future. If there is any chance at getting Luck or any NFL style QB, you do it. Going forward with a slow, poor mans Vick is not a long term solution.

With Tebow in the lineup, the team went from scoring 6 and 13 points under a QB who was having a borderline pro bowl season, to scoring 24, 23, and 28 points under a rookie in his first 3 starts.

Seriously, I find it hard to believe the offense would have really been that much better with Bradford, Luck, or whoever, especially given the teams problems on defense.

snowspot66
01-02-2011, 04:49 PM
I pass on luck. If im in position to get him I trade the pick.

Tebow has shown me enough to say you should do everything you can to improve the defense and give tebow a chance to run the offense.

I agree. There is no way to know if Luck will be the next Manning, the next Ryan Leaf, or anything in between. Granted we don't know that about Tebow either. Both have the same chance of success at this point in time.

What we do know is that all time greats like Marino and Kelly have 0 rings and the great Manning himself has one courtesy of Bob Sanders. Just being great is no guarantee of success. Even if Luck turns into the next Manning, and lets be honest that's a pretty big ****ing if, he won't win sh*t with this pathetic excuse for a team we have.

We need to run the course with Tebow to see what he has and invest in defense. If he turns out to be another Rothlisberger instead of a Brady I'll be ok with that. Obviously you can win Super Bowls with that. If Tebow falls flat we'll be in a position to pick the next greatest QB to come along in a decade.

All you have to do is look at a list of QB's taken in the draft these last 15 years and you will find in almost every single draft there was a really good QB taken, often in the middle or late first round, and for the few years there's nothing but sh*tty QB's there's always a year with multiple good QB's to balance it out.

If Tebow fails, but we build a good team in the mean time, I guarantee there will be a QB there for the taking that will have a legitimate chance at success. Especially so if we have a legitimate team built around them.

The investment in Tebow has been made. It's time to wait it out.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 04:49 PM
two years? where you been? we've been trending to this point for 6 years at least. We haven't had a defence in eons. Did McDaniels somehow become Shanny's scapegoat.

As far as Luck goes, the only way we get him is if he engineers the trade - hints strongly he'll go back to school rather than go to Carolina and Carolina takes the opportunity to switch picks and take Tebow.

No way I offer multiple picks for him.

And even then we still use up our 1st round pick on a QB and hurt our ability to rebuild this defense.

mhgaffney
01-02-2011, 04:51 PM
Sure we need D but you build a team around a franchise QB.

TDmvp
01-02-2011, 04:51 PM
He is the next Elway -- with no weaknesses.
..

no such thing ... comparing Luck because he is good in college , to John Elway who is a HOF super bowl winning Qb is shorting John Elway...


I can make a list as long as my house of so called can't miss next so in so's...

I live in Cincinnati , I've heard all about guys who can't miss.

I also think college is so watered down that a lot of QB's would look great in Jim's system playing who they play...

TD4HOF
01-02-2011, 04:53 PM
Gimme a break. I say we start a McCarthy-ish committee to investigate and persecute Tebow blasphemers.

Taco John
01-02-2011, 04:53 PM
We have no hole to fill at QB. Even if you're not sold on Tebow at this point, the bottom line is that he gives us enough at the position that we can invest our pick in defense. Luck vs. Tebow is masturbation. The real debate is Peterson vs. Bowers (or fill in your DL of preference).

snowspot66
01-02-2011, 04:55 PM
Sure we need D but you build a team around a franchise QB.

And we might have one. We have to figure that out first.

Lots of teams have missed on top QB picks. But they tried it out a year or two to decide on if they were a bust.

Archer81
01-02-2011, 04:55 PM
We have no hole to fill at QB. Even if you're not sold on Tebow at this point, the bottom line is that he gives us enough at the position that we can invest our pick in defense. Luck vs. Tebow is masturbation. The real debate is Peterson vs. Bowers (or fill in your DL of preference).


Yup.

Defense, please.

:Broncos:

TDmvp
01-02-2011, 04:56 PM
Gimme a break. I say we start a McCarthy-ish committee to investigate and persecute Tebow blasphemers.


There just might be a

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/15/29751274562f8aefd2ce.jpg

TD4HOF
01-02-2011, 04:57 PM
I wouldn't be upset if we trade down for more picks. I hate top 5 picks...they are far, far, far, far from a sure thing.

snowspot66
01-02-2011, 04:57 PM
We have no hole to fill at QB. Even if you're not sold on Tebow at this point, the bottom line is that he gives us enough at the position that we can invest our pick in defense. Luck vs. Tebow is masturbation. The real debate is Peterson vs. Bowers (or fill in your DL of preference).

I have to agree.

At the very very least I expect Tebow to be a significantly more motivated version of Plummer and Plummer was pretty damn good for us when the coaching was good. And I'm much more comfortable with Tebow throwing from the pocket than I ever was with Plummer.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 04:57 PM
Sure we need D but you build a team around a franchise QB.

Which we very well may have right now. The guy has broken records in every one of his first three starts. He's made some incredible plays with his feet and with his arm. He's struggled a fair bit as well, but that's to be expected from a rookie.

Tebow's first 3 starts > the first three starts of Manning, Elway, and Steve Young to name just a few.

If you think he hasn't shown enough to warrant excitement then I really have to wonder if you've watched a rookie QB play before.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-02-2011, 04:58 PM
And we might have one. We have to figure that out first.

Lots of teams have missed on top QB picks. But they tried it out a year or two to decide on if they were a bust.

We might have one. But our bluff is effectively being called at this point because you are 1 pick away from being able to get the biggest cant-miss QB prospect since Peyton Manning. Them there are some big stakes on the table.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 04:59 PM
Gimme a break. I say we start a McCarthy-ish committee to investigate and persecute Tebow blasphemers.

Or you could just pull your head out of your ass...

TDmvp
01-02-2011, 04:59 PM
I have to agree.

At the very very least I expect Tebow to be a significantly more motivated version of Plummer and Plummer was pretty damn good for us when the coaching was good. And I'm much more comfortable with Tebow throwing from the pocket than I ever was with Plummer.

:thumbsup:

Pretty much so ... And he will work like a sob to fix his issues that's for sure.
You give that kid a shot and build a D ... Hell if the Ravens can win a super bowl with Dilfer we can win with Tim and a great D

ayjackson
01-02-2011, 05:02 PM
Or you could just pull your head out of your ass...

Welcome to the Mane. You'll fit right in.

Smells like the offseason around here.

snowspot66
01-02-2011, 05:03 PM
We might have one. But our bluff is effectively being called at this point because you are 1 pick away from being able to get the biggest cant-miss QB prospect since Peyton Manning. Them there are some big stakes on the table.

And if that is truly the case with Luck, I think we have to ask ourselves why we are arguing about this because why the **** would Carolina trade that pick for anything? If you can lock down the most important position on the field for 15 years with a guy you think is a potential Hall of Famer why would you trade that away for any number of picks/players?

We at least have another legitimate option to try out who has everything, if not more, than Luck has except for flawless mechanics. The Panthers have **** at QB.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 05:03 PM
We might have one. But our bluff is effectively being called at this point because you are 1 pick away from being able to get the biggest cant-miss QB prospect since Peyton Manning. Them there are some big stakes on the table.

He is not a can't miss prospect....

Do people really believe this nonsense? Ryan Leaf was rated higher than Manning by many experts. Many claimed he was a more "pro-ready". How'd that work out? There is no such thing as a can't miss prospect at any position, especially QB. It's a complete myth. Most top QB prospects bust, and many of those busts are called "can't miss" prospects before being drafted.

Archer81
01-02-2011, 05:03 PM
We might have one. But our bluff is effectively being called at this point because you are 1 pick away from being able to get the biggest cant-miss QB prospect since Peyton Manning. Them there are some big stakes on the table.


Peyton Manning was far from being "cant miss". People bagged on him because they believed he reached the ceiling of what he was capable of in college and believed Leaf had more upside.

Any time you hear anyone ever say a player is can't miss, that player usually ends up not meeting expectations. Robert Gallery was a "can't miss" offensive tackle for example.

:Broncos:

BroncoInferno
01-02-2011, 05:04 PM
This is the thing with Tebow. I'm convinced he will be an exciting, quality NFL QB, but I am concerned about his accuracy. I heard Steve Young talking about how you can coach a guy up in terms of mechanics and the mental aspects of the game, but with accuracy you either have it or you don't. I'm worried Tebow might be similar to Vick in that he's good enough to win games and will play exciting football but ultimately, when you need him to win a game for you in the pocket, he will let you down. That being said, if Luck declares (and it's still a big "if"...Harbaugh thinks he's staying), I seriously doubt Carolina will trade out of the spot. If they do, it will likely cost an arm and a leg just to move up one spot. Even though I still have concerns, I say either stay at #2 or trade down and build the defense and give Tebow the chance to be the starter for a full season.

mhgaffney
01-02-2011, 05:05 PM
It's an interesting dilemma -- and it is not going to go away over the next weeks.

We have a guy in Tebow who is a winner -- and shows a lot of talent and heart.

Nonetheless, I suggest you skeptics need to go watch the Luck vidoes.

It is not just the passing talent. You see Luck make huge huge defensive plays -- in the clutch. LIke making a shoe string tackle to prevent a TD after a fumble.

We will never be closer than we are now to trading up one spot for probable a HOF QB

So this is the dilemma.

epicSocialism4tw
01-02-2011, 05:05 PM
With Tebow in the lineup, the team went from scoring 6 and 13 points under a QB who was having a borderline pro bowl season, to scoring 24, 23, and 28 points under a rookie in his first 3 starts.

Seriously, I find it hard to believe the offense would have really been that much better with Bradford, Luck, or whoever, especially given the teams problems on defense.

Thats an excellent point that will no doubt be looked at by NFL coaches. They'll look at that, they'll see that Tebow was productive in accomplishing that, and they'll move forward trying to build on his strengths to further seize that advantage that he provides.

orinjkrush
01-02-2011, 05:08 PM
more D please sir

Archer81
01-02-2011, 05:09 PM
It's an interesting dilemma -- and it is not going to go away over the next weeks.

We have a guy in Tebow who is a winner -- and shows a lot of talent and heart.

Nonetheless, I suggest you skeptics need to go watch the Luck vidoes.

It is not just the passing talent. You see Luck make huge huge defensive plays -- in the clutch. LIke making a shoe string tackle to prevent a TD after a fumble.

We will never be closer than we are now to trading up one spot for probable a HOF QB

So this is the dilemma.


Because you are for Luck, I am more commited to being against him being drafted by the Broncos.

Dilemma my ass. Keep what you have and build where you are weak. QB is not a Broncos weakness.

:Broncos:

snowspot66
01-02-2011, 05:09 PM
This is the thing with Tebow. I'm convinced he will be an exciting, quality NFL QB, but I am concerned about his accuracy. I heard Steve Young talking about how you can coach a guy up in terms of mechanics and the mental aspects of the game, but with accuracy you either have it or you don't. I'm worried Tebow might be similar to Vick in that he's good enough to win games and will play exciting football but ultimately, when you need him to win a game for you in the pocket, he will let you down. That being said, if Luck declares (and it's still a big "if"...Harbaugh thinks he's staying), I seriously doubt Carolina will trade out of the spot. If they do, it will likely cost an arm and a leg just to move up one spot. Even though I still have concerns, I say either stay at #2 or trade down and build the defense and give Tebow the chance to be the starter for a full season.

The guys lowest completion % in college was 64. He's obviously got a history of putting the ball where it can be caught.

epicSocialism4tw
01-02-2011, 05:10 PM
He is not a can't miss prospect....

Do people really believe this nonsense? Ryan Leaf was rated higher than Manning by many experts. Many claimed he was a more "pro-ready". How'd that work out? There is no such thing as a can't miss prospect at any position, especially QB. It's a complete myth. Most top QB prospects bust, and many of those busts are called "can't miss" prospects before being drafted.

Jake Locker was considered a sure thing heading into this season. He became less of a sure thing playing against PAC 10 weakness for a year.

Any player you draft is an uncertainty.

Its time that the Broncos started investing talent in the defensive side of the ball.

elsid13
01-02-2011, 05:11 PM
The guys lowest completion % in college was 64. He's obviously got a history of putting the ball where it can be caught.

In a system that designed for short easy completion. I posted all the QB that have been/under the Myers style spread option and they averaged about 62% (that includes Alex Smith, Leak, the Utah QBs).

Taco John
01-02-2011, 05:12 PM
There is no way in hell that Tebow is leaving Denver. Denver locals will burn John Elway's house to the ground if he trades him. JOHN ELWAY.

It's not going to happen.

Archer81
01-02-2011, 05:13 PM
If you have a good to great defense...you can win with Dilfer at QB. This has been proven. Build the ****ing defense.

****.

:Broncos:

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 05:14 PM
This is the thing with Tebow. I'm convinced he will be an exciting, quality NFL QB, but I am concerned about his accuracy. I heard Steve Young talking about how you can coach a guy up in terms of mechanics and the mental aspects of the game, but with accuracy you either have it or you don't. I'm worried Tebow might be similar to Vick in that he's good enough to win games and will play exciting football but ultimately, when you need him to win a game for you in the pocket, he will let you down. That being said, if Luck declares (and it's still a big "if"...Harbaugh thinks he's staying), I seriously doubt Carolina will trade out of the spot. If they do, it will likely cost an arm and a leg just to move up one spot. Even though I still have concerns, I say either stay at #2 or trade down and build the defense and give Tebow the chance to be the starter for a full season.

Tebow's accuracy is fine. His issues and mis-throws are far more the result of hesitancy, over-cautiousness, and issues reading NFL defenses. Rookie QBs always have poor completion percentages and a lot of errant throws relative to what they produce as veterans. Peyton Manning had a 54 completion percentage in his first three starts. That seems to have worked out fine.

elsid13
01-02-2011, 05:15 PM
There is no way in hell that Tebow is leaving Denver. Denver locals will burn John Elway's house to the ground if he trades him. JOHN ELWAY.

It's not going to happen.

If Elway (who most consider the Denver Broncos), say he trading Tebow for the betterment of the team, no one going to question him. Elway has more clout then any current player on the heartstrings of the fans.

frerottenextelway
01-02-2011, 05:16 PM
There is no way in hell that Tebow is leaving Denver. Denver locals will burn John Elway's house to the ground if he trades him. JOHN ELWAY.

It's not going to happen.

Elway is a smart man, I imagine he'll keep floating the possibility of Luck for draft reasons with 0 intentions of having anyone but Tebow playing QB here.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 05:17 PM
It's an interesting dilemma -- and it is not going to go away over the next weeks.

We have a guy in Tebow who is a winner -- and shows a lot of talent and heart.

Nonetheless, I suggest you skeptics need to go watch the Luck vidoes.

It is not just the passing talent. You see Luck make huge huge defensive plays -- in the clutch. LIke making a shoe string tackle to prevent a TD after a fumble.

We will never be closer than we are now to trading up one spot for probable a HOF QB

So this is the dilemma.

It's not about being skeptics. It's about realizing that we need defense far more than we need to replace our promising rookie QB with another promising rookie QB.

Archer81
01-02-2011, 05:17 PM
D E F E N S E...

That is all.

:Broncos:

SoCalBronco
01-02-2011, 05:18 PM
There isn't a dilemma at all. Carolina has the first pick we don't. They would demand a King's Ransom and it would be completely irrational to pay that. In fact, even if it was a reasonable offer, I would decline it. We've got a talented prospect at QB. We can run a creative offense that will be difficult to prepare for and difficult to defend. Tebow's maturation from Year 1 to Year 2 will also be pretty good I bet. I'm very satisfied with that position.

Take that No. 2 pick and trade it down to like 9 or 10 and amass at least a couple more quality draft choices. I would like to be able to add at least one more second rounder and one more third rounder in addition to staying in the first round. If we can do that, we would have 6 picks in the first three rounds which would allow us to hit the DL twice, the LB spot once, the DBs twice and the (interior) OL spot once all in the first three rounds. We can TOTALLY remake the roster in those first three rounds....just move down and get those two more picks.

jsco70
01-02-2011, 05:18 PM
Tebow's accuracy is fine. His issues and mis-throws are far more the result of hesitancy, over-cautiousness, and issues reading NFL defenses. Rookie QBs always have poor completion percentages and a lot of errant throws relative to what they produce as veterans. Peyton Manning had a 54 completion percentage in his first three starts. That seems to have worked out fine.

Agree 100%.

BroncoInferno
01-02-2011, 05:19 PM
If you have a good to great defense...you can win with Dilfer at QB. This has been proven. Build the ****ing defense.

****.

:Broncos:

Well, you can win with Dilfer if you have one of the best defenses of all-time, anyway. I don't doubt we can win divisions and go to the playoffs with Tebow, but when we get to the playoffs and a good to great defense takes the run away from Tebow, will he have the accuracy to win the game from the pocket? Atlanta played good D with Vick and won a lot of games, but come playoff time Vick's accuracy would eventually become a problem for them taking the next step. Again, Tebow in mind has proven he can play in the NFL and win games, but I am still not sure if he has the accuracy to win games come playoff time from the pocket. Still, I agree with the notion of giving him a chance and drafting primarily defense (I'd like to see us use a 2nd or 3rd rounder on a TE who can catch the ball). And I don't think we'll have a realistic chance to get Luck anyway, because Carolina probably won't pass on him if he's available.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 05:19 PM
If Elway (who most consider the Denver Broncos), say he trading Tebow for the betterment of the team, no one going to question him. Elway has more clout then any current player on the heartstrings of the fans.

I would question him. He was a great QB in his day. That doesn't mean he has a clue in this case. I'm still not sure how hiring him, lacking in any real qualifications as far as rebuilding a team goes, was a good idea. I'm hoping for the best, but I can't help but think we hired another guy with no real clue and gave him too much power.

Likwid Kerruj
01-02-2011, 05:23 PM
Some other team could trade up with Carolina to take Luck anyway.

There are several others in the top 10 that have question marks at QB as well.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 05:23 PM
There isn't a dilemma at all. Carolina has the first pick we don't. They would demand a King's Ransom and it would be completely irrational to pay that. In fact, even if it was a reasonable offer, I would decline it. We've got a talented prospect at QB. We can run a creative offense that will be difficult to prepare for and difficult to defend. Tebow's maturation from Year 1 to Year 2 will also be pretty good I bet. I'm very satisfied with that position.

Take that No. 2 pick and trade it down to like 9 or 10 and amass at least a couple more quality draft choices. I would like to be able to add at least one more second rounder and one more third rounder in addition to staying in the first round. If we can do that, we would have 6 picks in the first three rounds which would allow us to hit the DL twice, the LB spot once, the DBs twice and the (interior) OL spot once all in the first three rounds. We can TOTALLY remake the roster in those first three rounds....just move down and get those two more picks.

You sir know what you're talking about, and to take the thought one step further, if Luck somehow does fall to us we can demand the King's Ransom Carolina was too stupid to. It isn't going to happen, but it'd be nice.

SoCalBronco
01-02-2011, 05:24 PM
If Elway (who most consider the Denver Broncos), say he trading Tebow for the betterment of the team, no one going to question him.

Really? Prepare to be shocked. I (and I'm sure many others) am going to question him at every instance. He has ZERO clout whatsoever. He is completely and utterly unqualified to be the chief decisionmaker, especially in personnel decisions. John Elway telling me that a decision he made was in the best interest of the team plus 75 cents could get you a mediocre cup of coffee. He has no credentials so I don't give a flying **** what he or his little cabana boy Xanders has to say.

If he is willing to give up a huge lot just to get his boy Luck and ignore the real needs here, that will confirm the obvious: that he's in way over his head and that his boss needs to be put in the Betty Ford clinic....permanently.

jsco70
01-02-2011, 05:26 PM
If he is willing to give up a huge lot just to get his boy Luck and ignore the real needs here, that will confirm the obvious: that he's in way over his head and that his boss needs to be put in the Betty Ford clinic....permanently.

A little harsh...but true.

epicSocialism4tw
01-02-2011, 05:27 PM
Elway is a smart man, I imagine he'll keep floating the possibility of Luck for draft reasons with 0 intentions of having anyone but Tebow playing QB here.

Thats what will happen.

I imagine that the Broncos will look to trade back and pick up more selections in the process.

This is a team trying to rebuild itself from the ground up with talent. They'll be looking to gain picks to use on positions of need, not expending them to put all of their eggs in the basket of a player who plays one of the few positions on the Broncos roster that has a quality starter in place.

scttgrd
01-02-2011, 05:27 PM
Tebow is more a cult of personality than a great QB. Teaching a QB to throw, or getting a QB that can make all the passes but needs a bit of seasoning. Not much of a choice there.

elsid13
01-02-2011, 05:28 PM
Really? Prepare to be shocked. I (and I'm sure many others) am going to question him at every instance. He has ZERO clout whatsoever. He is completely and utterly unqualified to be the chief decisionmaker, especially in personnel decisions. John Elway telling me that a decision he made was in the best interest of the team plus 75 cents could get you a mediocre cup of coffee. He has no credentials so I don't give a flying **** what he or his little cabana boy Xanders has to say.

If he is willing to give up a huge lot just to get his boy Luck and ignore the real needs here, that will confirm the obvious: that he's in way over his head and that his boss needs to be put in the Betty Ford clinic....permanently.

Socal, I am sure that you already have 15 inch Hiv spitting cobra packed and just trying to figure out if you send it UPS or FEDEX, but the 99% of the fan base won't question Elway in his first couple of years. Hiring Elway gives Bowlen 3 to 4 years to fix this disaster.

randomtask
01-02-2011, 05:28 PM
Defense.

The first pick, both second's, and the third.

Whoever is the best Defensive player, take 'em. Peterson, Fairly, Bowers, Dareus, I don't care.

Just make sure that it's defense.

BroncoInferno
01-02-2011, 05:28 PM
Tebow's accuracy is fine. His issues and mis-throws are far more the result of hesitancy, over-cautiousness, and issues reading NFL defenses. Rookie QBs always have poor completion percentages and a lot of errant throws relative to what they produce as veterans. Peyton Manning had a 54 completion percentage in his first three starts. That seems to have worked out fine.

Well, I hope so, but your saying so doesn't convince me. Accuracy was one of the knocks against him coming into the draft, so it goes beyond just the usual rookie issues I think. He seems to place the deep ball well, but his short to mid range accuracy needs some work. And, again, I'm not sure accuracy issues can been cured if you believe what Young says.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 05:29 PM
Really? Prepare to be shocked. I (and I'm sure many others) am going to question him at every instance. He has ZERO clout whatsoever. He is completely and utterly unqualified to be the chief decisionmaker, especially in personnel decisions. John Elway telling me that a decision he made was in the best interest of the team plus 75 cents could get you a mediocre cup of coffee. He has no credentials so I don't give a flying **** what he or his little cabana boy Xanders has to say.

If he is willing to give up a huge lot just to get his boy Luck and ignore the real needs here, that will confirm the obvious: that he's in way over his head and that his boss needs to be put in the Betty Ford clinic....permanently.

I salute you sir.

Elway the quarterback I love and venerate. Elway the FO bigshot I have serious misgivings about. Men who are hired for who they are rather than what they have accomplished rarely succeed. I can only hope Elway is an exception.

Old Dude
01-02-2011, 05:29 PM
Looks like 2, 36, and 66.

And not sure about Miami's second rounder but it looks like they'll be drafting somewhere from 14 to 16, depending on outcome of Rams & Hawks tonight. I'm assuming the Fins had a tougher sos than either of those NFC west teams, so that would make them last in line in the first round, but first in line in the second (because teams flip-flop).

Looks like #46 or 47 then.

anyone have anything official?

Archer81
01-02-2011, 05:29 PM
Well, you can win with Dilfer if you have one of the best defenses of all-time, anyway. I don't doubt we can win divisions and go to the playoffs with Tebow, but when we get to the playoffs and a good to great defense takes the run away from Tebow, will he have the accuracy to win the game from the pocket? Atlanta played good D with Vick and won a lot of games, but come playoff time Vick's accuracy would eventually become a problem for them taking the next step. Again, Tebow in mind has proven he can play in the NFL and win games, but I am still not sure if he has the accuracy to win games come playoff time from the pocket. Still, I agree with the notion of giving him a chance and drafting primarily defense (I'd like to see us use a 2nd or 3rd rounder on a TE who can catch the ball). And I don't think we'll have a realistic chance to get Luck anyway, because Carolina probably won't pass on him if he's available.


Tebow put the ball in spots Orton would not even consider doable. I have 0 concerns about his accuracy at this point in his career. In college for a "running" QB his accuracy was pretty damn good. I expect that to continue into his pro career.

As a comparison, Elway did not complete 60% of his passes until 1993.
1983: 47.5%
1984: 56.3%
1985: 54%
1986: 55.6%
1987: 54.6%
1988: 55.2%
1989: 53.6%
1990: 58.6%
1991: 53.7%
1992: 55.1%
1993: 63.2%

Note, I am not bagging on Elway, but some of the arguments about Tebow's lack of accuracy or his ability to be successful is a bit ridiculous. Elway made 4 superbowl appearances completing less then 60% of his throws. I wouldnt doubt if history repeats itself with Tebow.

:Broncos:

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 05:33 PM
Well, I hope so, but your saying so doesn't convince me. Accuracy was one of the knocks against him coming into the draft, so it goes beyond just the usual rookie issues I think. He seems to place the deep ball well, but his short to mid range accuracy needs some work. And, again, I'm not sure accuracy issues can been cured if you believe what Young says.

Like arm strength was a knock? You still believe that one?

Seriously the "experts" are complete morons when it comes to Tebow. The guy was the highest rated passer in SEC history, had a 67% completion rate with well over 9 yards per attempt, and only threw 15 Ints to 88 TDs. He wasn't inaccurate in college. He was laser precise in fact. I'm not sure what they were looking at, but it wasn't his actual play.

Cito Pelon
01-02-2011, 05:34 PM
I'd take defense, but if Luck falls to us at 2, it's AWFULLY hard to pass him up.

What, to trade him?

Denver's D has given up 20+ yd plays galore this year, and the year before that, and the year before that .. . . . . ..

SoCalBronco
01-02-2011, 05:35 PM
Socal, I am sure that you already have 15 inch Hiv spitting cobra packed and just trying to figure out if you send it UPS or FEDEX, but the 99% of the fan base won't question Elway in his first couple of years. Hiring Elway gives Bowlen 3 to 4 years to fix this disaster.

The Cobra is DEFINITELY ready to be busted out. :)

Actually...I think you underestimate our fan base....especially on this forum. Even alot of homers here were kind of wary of the idea that Elway and Xanders were the right answer....most people kind of preferred a proven independent person from the outside (such as DeCosta) for example. I think most fans will give them one summer...that's it. Even that might be a little generous. I'm really kind of shocked at how dumb Bowlen thinks people are..."here...I hired Elway, so be quiet". A little too much Black Label, maybe.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 05:39 PM
The Cobra is DEFINITELY ready to be busted out. :)

Actually...I think you underestimate our fan base....especially on this forum. Even alot of homers here were kind of wary of the idea that Elway and Xanders were the right answer....most people kind of preferred a proven independent person from the outside (such as DeCosta) for example. I think most fans will give them one summer...that's it. Even that might be a little generous. I'm really kind of shocked at how dumb Bowlen thinks people are..."here...I hired Elway, so be quiet". A little too much Black Label, maybe.

I'm already sick to my stomach over the Elway/Xanders combo. It just feels like McD 2.0 to (in the sense of hiring inexperienced individuals when more experienced options are available), but this time with the nice shiny cover of our most beloved player of all time. I have grave misgivings, and if Tebow is traded and we somehow acquire Luck, those misgivings will quickly turn to despair.

SoCalBronco
01-02-2011, 05:41 PM
I'm already sick to my stomach over the Elway/Xanders combo. It just feels like McD 2.0 to (in the sense of hiring inexperienced individuals when more experienced options are available), but this time with the nice shiny cover of our most beloved player of all time. I have grave misgivings, and if Tebow is traded and we somehow acquire Luck, those misgivings will quickly turn to despair.

Me too...man. This whole thing has the strong potential to tarnish Elway's legacy and I really don't want to see that. We'll see how it goes. BTW, welcome to the forum. :)

peacepipe
01-02-2011, 05:41 PM
Like arm strength was a knock? You still believe that one?

Seriously the "experts" are complete morons when it comes to Tebow. The guy was the highest rated passer in SEC history, had a 67% completion rate with well over 9 yards per attempt, and only threw 15 Ints to 88 TDs. He wasn't inaccurate in college. He was laser precise in fact. I'm not sure what they were looking at, but it wasn't his actual play.

As good as the SEC is,it's not the NFL.

BroncoInferno
01-02-2011, 05:41 PM
Tebow put the ball in spots Orton would not even consider doable. I have 0 concerns about his accuracy at this point in his career. In college for a "running" QB his accuracy was pretty damn good. I expect that to continue into his pro career.

As a comparison, Elway did not complete 60% of his passes until 1993.
1983: 47.5%
1984: 56.3%
1985: 54%
1986: 55.6%
1987: 54.6%
1988: 55.2%
1989: 53.6%
1990: 58.6%
1991: 53.7%
1992: 55.1%
1993: 63.2%

Note, I am not bagging on Elway, but some of the arguments about Tebow's lack of accuracy or his ability to be successful is a bit ridiculous. Elway made 3 superbowl appearances completing less then 60% of his throws. I wouldnt doubt if history repeats itself with Tebow.

:Broncos:

Completion percentage does not tell you all you need to know about accuracy. Guys in today's era tend to complete a much higher percentage just by virtue of the fact that most offenses utilize the short passing game a great deal more, plus the rules that don't allow the defender to touch receivers downfield helps as well. You'll note that Elway's completion percentage spiked when he got to play in more modern offenses with Fassel and Shanny. You have to look a little deeper. Maybe it won't be an issue, and as I said I am convinced at this point that Tebow won't be a complete washout and we'll be able to win with him paired with a quality D and running game. But will he be able to beat a time like, say, Pittsburgh in January if they are able to contain him in the pocket? I'm not convinced of that yet.

elsid13
01-02-2011, 05:42 PM
The Cobra is DEFINITELY ready to be busted out. :)

Actually...I think you underestimate our fan base....especially on this forum. Even alot of homers here were kind of wary of the idea that Elway and Xanders were the right answer....most people kind of preferred a proven independent person from the outside (such as DeCosta) for example. I think most fans will give them one summer...that's it. Even that might be a little generous. I'm really kind of shocked at how dumb Bowlen thinks people are..."here...I hired Elway, so be quiet". A little too much Black Label, maybe.

Remember we need to see the plan before we go crazy. But the original post by TJ, that I responded to was the "fact" that there no way Denver could trade Tebow. But if Luck falls to us at #2, we draft him then turn around and trade Tebow for another 2nd and 4th, plus whatever the get for Orton and this team could be reset quickly. And the fan base would have no problem with Tebow trade.

Archer81
01-02-2011, 05:43 PM
Completion percentage does not tell you all you need to know about accuracy. Guys in today's era tend to complete a much higher percentage just by virtue of the fact that most offenses utilize the short passing game a great deal more, plus the rules that don't allow the defender to touch receivers downfield helps as well. You'll note that Elway's completion percentage spiked when he got to play in more modern offenses with Fassel and Shanny. You have to look a little deeper. Maybe it won't be an issue, and as I said I am convinced at this point that Tebow won't be a complete washout and we'll be able to win with him paired with a quality D and running game. But will he be able to beat a time like, say, Pittsburgh in January if they are able to contain him in the pocket? I'm not convinced of that yet.


Jesus Christ dude...

Elway only completed 60% of his passes in 3 of his 16 seasons. Clearly a high completion % has nothing to do with how good a QB is nor dictate how capable of moving the offense he is.

That is the point. Tebow can do it. Elway did it.

:Broncos:

BroncoInferno
01-02-2011, 05:44 PM
Me too...man. This whole thing has the strong potential to tarnish Elway's legacy and I really don't want to see that. We'll see how it goes. BTW, welcome to the forum. :)

It was only like a month ago that Elway flat out stated that he didn't want personnel decision making responsibilities because he had no experience with it, so hopefully he will stick by that and allow a GM to run the personnel side of things (hopefully not Xanders, but I'd be willing to give him a chance since he's never gotten a shot at that before). If Elway takes a large role on the personnel side of things, I have practically no hope of things ending well.

misturanderson
01-02-2011, 05:46 PM
Jake Locker was considered a sure thing heading into this season. He became less of a sure thing playing against PAC 10 weakness for a year.

Any player you draft is an uncertainty.

Its time that the Broncos started investing talent in the defensive side of the ball.

The Jake Locker talk was all hyperbole last year. That guy was dropping out of the top 5 no matter what happened once people actually started analyzing his sub-par stats against weak competition.

Luck has no such problems. He dominates in college and looks like a pro-ready QB. His stats are what are expected and he looks good when he plays too. The guy is the complete package barring injury.

I still think we should go defense all day in the draft and maybe should even trade down from #2 (even without Luck being there) to pick up some more picks to use on defense, OL, RB and TE. No QB can win a superbowl without a team around them and right now we have 1/2 a team at best.

SoCalBronco
01-02-2011, 05:47 PM
Remember we need to see the plan before we go crazy. But the original post by TJ, that I responded to was the "fact" that there no way Denver could trade Tebow. But if Luck falls to us at #2, we draft him then turn around and trade Tebow for another 2nd and 4th, plus whatever the get for Orton and this team could be reset quickly. And the fan base would have no problem with Tebow trade.

We will never "see the plan". No FO lays out their specific plan in advance to the fanbase for obvious reasons. We'll see what they do at each juncture and judge them accordingly. They have nothing good to hang their hat on so far, so there's no reason to give them a honeymoon. We'll see what they do at each juncture and go from there. I'm not going to "wait and hold off on criticism" for any specified period of time. If they do something I like, I'll give them props, if they do something I don't, I have no reason not to criticize them.

BTW, there is no way Luck will fall to No. 2 and I don't think too many other teams would give us a 2nd and 4th for Tebow (except for maybe JAX, for selling ticket purposes).

Cito Pelon
01-02-2011, 05:50 PM
I agree. Taking Luck will set us back a couple of years. But you can't pass on a "Manning" type of player, regardless of how much you need defense. The Colts have gone to the playoffs 9 straight years now...and thats not a coincidence. Tebow has showed potential, but thats about it. Can he sit back in the pocket and throw, I'm still not sure. I do know that if we play a great defense (who contains the rollouts and qb sneaks) Tebow will be in for a long day, plummer style.

I'm sorry, but I'm sick and tired of this Luck talk. Luck hasn't accomplished jackcrap in college, but he's the next Peyton Manning? Please. Kid is a redshirt sophomore, but he's gonna tear the NFL a new one? Jebus.

Hercules Rockefeller
01-02-2011, 05:50 PM
Remember we need to see the plan before we go crazy. But the original post by TJ, that I responded to was the "fact" that there no way Denver could trade Tebow. But if Luck falls to us at #2, we draft him then turn around and trade Tebow for another 2nd and 4th, plus whatever the get for Orton and this team could be reset quickly. And the fan base would have no problem with Tebow trade.

Luck. Is. Not. Falling. To. #. 2.

Stop. It's not happening. Throwing it out as a hypothetical is retarded.

strafen
01-02-2011, 05:52 PM
Remember we need to see the plan before we go crazy. But the original post by TJ, that I responded to was the "fact" that there no way Denver could trade Tebow. But if Luck falls to us at #2, we draft him then turn around and trade Tebow for another 2nd and 4th, plus whatever the get for Orton and this team could be reset quickly. And the fan base would have no problem with Tebow trade.That could be a viable option with minimum collaretal damages.

The fact that Elway will/may be talking to Harbaugh about the head cosvhing position in Denver doesn't necessarily assume we're going after Luck.
I believe Harbaugh will be able to work with Tebow just as well.
While Tebow and Luck are similar athletic wise, Luck may be more of a pure pocket passer than Tebow could ever be...

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 05:52 PM
But will he be able to beat a time like, say, Pittsburgh in January if they are able to contain him in the pocket? I'm not convinced of that yet.

None of us can really know that yet. Three games on a team in total disarray isn't much to go on one way or the other. Based on his drive to win I tend to believe he will be the kind of guy to make those plays, but only time will tell.

elsid13
01-02-2011, 05:52 PM
Luck. Is. Not. Falling. To. #. 2.

Stop. It's not happening. Throwing it out as a hypothetical is retarded.

I agree he not falling, but I do enjoy watching everyone getting excited because Tebow might not be the "QB":approve:

BroncoInferno
01-02-2011, 05:53 PM
Jesus Christ dude...

Elway only completed 60% of his passes in 3 of his 16 seasons. Clearly a high completion % has nothing to do with how good a QB is nor dictate how capable of moving the offense he is.

That is the point. Tebow can do it. Elway did it.

:Broncos:

Elway played in a different era. There has not been a QB since Dilfer who won the Super Bowl and didn't complete over 60% of his passes. Elway played in a different era when QBs in general had lower completion rates. You'll note that the 3 times he went over 60% were in the latter part of his career when he played with Fassel and Shanny. You think he all of a sudden became more accurate as a 10 year vet? Of course not. He simply got into scheme designed to complete a higher percentage than what he worked with under Reeves. And, again, it isn't just about the completion percentage. It's part of the equation, certainly, but that doesn't tell the whole story when it comes to accuracy.

EDIT: I was wrong...Eli completed less than 60% in 2007, BUT completed more the 60% in the playoffs.

Boltjolt
01-02-2011, 05:53 PM
I dont know what the consesus in here is but first, i have doubts Luck even comes out unless Harbaugh leaves.

I do like Tebow. He has what you cant teach and thats fire to win and learn and be the best he can be. Many QB's with more talent didnt have that and failed in the NFL.

He didnt have a great game throwing the ball today only completing 44% but he keeps plays alive with his mobility to make something happen. Hard to defend once he starts passing better, and he will.

He will be a pain in the AFC Wests ass for a while and ill admit that. Never understood why some here hates Rivers because he is good. I appreciate good players.

Tebow has upside but so does Luck. He is more like Brees IMO because he isnt a running QB but he can run and scramble but is more a passing QB with mobility.

Depends on who you hire as HC. If the next HC is a Tebow fan, he will be your QB. If he isnt, i guess Luck is your guy if he comes out.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 05:54 PM
Luck. Is. Not. Falling. To. #. 2.

Stop. It's not happening. Throwing it out as a hypothetical is retarded.

People are going to keep hoping until Luck states that's he's staying in school or until draft day.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 05:56 PM
Elway played in a different era. There has not been a QB since Dilfer who won the Super Bowl and didn't complete over 60% of his passes. Elway played in a different era when QBs in general had lower completion rates. You'll note that the 3 times he went over 60% were in the latter part of his career when he played with Fassel and Shanny. You think he all of a sudden became more accurate as a 10 year vet? Of course not. He simply got into scheme designed to complete a higher percentage than what he worked with under Reeves. And, again, it isn't just about the completion percentage. That doesn't tell the whole story when it comes to accuracy.

He actually got quite a bit more accurate in his later years. I watched it happen. It happened around the same time he stopped trying to throw the laces of the ball every time he threw.

Archer81
01-02-2011, 05:56 PM
Elway played in a different era. There has not been a QB since Dilfer who won the Super Bowl and didn't complete over 60% of his passes. Elway played in a different era when QBs in general had lower completion rates. You'll note that the 3 times he went over 60% were in the latter part of his career when he played with Fassel and Shanny. You think he all of a sudden became more accurate as a 10 year vet? Of course not. He simply got into scheme designed to complete a higher percentage than what he worked with under Reeves. And, again, it isn't just about the completion percentage. That doesn't tell the whole story when it comes to accuracy.


And somehow Tebow is incapable of being accurate why?

:Broncos:

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 05:59 PM
I'm sorry, but I'm sick and tired of this Luck talk. Luck hasn't accomplished jackcrap in college, but he's the next Peyton Manning? Please. Kid is a redshirt sophomore, but he's gonna tear the NFL a new one? Jebus.

Heh, pretty much. Whenever I hear "can't miss" in connection with a prospect I tend to start thinking "certain miss"...

strafen
01-02-2011, 06:02 PM
None of us can really know that yet. Three games on a team in total disarray isn't much to go on one way or the other. Based on his drive to win I tend to believe he will be the kind of guy to make those plays, but only time will tell.

The way this 3-game stint went with Tebow was expected.
You can sum up what everybody has said of Tebow, this way: Damn if he does, and damn if he doesn't.

If he does something well or proves he can do things people thought he couldn't, then people would be quickly to point out at other flaws they saw, like, accuracy?!

The guy has not played with this linep all season long before 2 weeks ago.
It takes time to develop chemistry and learn the receivers tendencies to be on the same page. That's something only Lloyd has been able to do better than most because he has a great sense anticipation...

BroncoInferno
01-02-2011, 06:03 PM
And somehow Tebow is incapable of being accurate why?

:Broncos:

That's what I'm getting at with the quote from Young...he says accuracy is something that you either have or you don't. Tebow had questions about his accuracy coming out of college, and so far he hasn't been as accurate as one would hope. Could it be rookie growing pains? Sure. But we don't know yet. Again, I'm not saying Tebow CAN'T be that kind of guy, just that I'm not convinced of it. What the hell is unreasonable about that? Can't some of us have reasonable concerns about the guy? Do we all have to be 100% sold after 3 starts?

HAT
01-02-2011, 06:04 PM
And somehow Tebow is incapable of being accurate why?

:Broncos:

Because he was the most accurate QB in SEC history.....Duh.

****, I hate the SEC.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 06:08 PM
That's what I'm getting at with the quote from Young...he says accuracy is something that you either have or you don't. Tebow had questions about his accuracy coming out of college, and so far he hasn't been as accurate as one would hope. Could it be rookie growing pains? Sure. But we don't know yet. Again, I'm not saying Tebow CAN'T be that kind of guy, just that I'm not convinced of it. What the hell is unreasonable about that? Can't some of us have reasonable concerns about the guy? Do we all have to be 100% sold after 3 starts?

No, that's all very reasonable. I'm not sure of that either. I tend to believe he'll be fine accuracy-wise, but I can't say I'm sure of it.

By the way, I completely disagree with Young. Accuracy can be developed. Michael Vick proves that conclusively.

Cito Pelon
01-02-2011, 06:09 PM
Remember we need to see the plan before we go crazy. But the original post by TJ, that I responded to was the "fact" that there no way Denver could trade Tebow. But if Luck falls to us at #2, we draft him then turn around and trade Tebow for another 2nd and 4th, plus whatever the get for Orton and this team could be reset quickly. And the fan base would have no problem with Tebow trade.

This Luck love is goofy to me. Kid does not have enough games under his belt to play in the NFL.

AmericanBroncFan
01-02-2011, 06:29 PM
Our defense has been the joke of the league way to long. We aren't winning anything without the right coaching staff or defense. Give Tebow an offseason and training camp. If he fails, let's not have the defense to blame it on. He has energized a 4-12 fanbase like no other.

BroncoInferno
01-02-2011, 06:33 PM
No, that's all very reasonable. I'm not sure of that either. I tend to believe he'll be fine accuracy-wise, but I can't say I'm sure of it.

By the way, I completely disagree with Young. Accuracy can be developed. Michael Vick proves that conclusively.

Vick has been more accurate this season, for sure. We will see if that holds up in the playoffs. Also, Vick, by his own admission was not a very hard worker or very disciplined earlier in his career. So, I am sure that didn't help his accuracy. We know Tebow will put in the work...we don't know if he has that innate ability to place the ball exactly where it needs to be. I admit that it may not be a problem, but I am concerned about it. That's all I'm saying.

Boltjolt
01-02-2011, 06:35 PM
Completion percentage does not tell you all you need to know about accuracy. Guys in today's era tend to complete a much higher percentage just by virtue of the fact that most offenses utilize the short passing game a great deal more, plus the rules that don't allow the defender to touch receivers downfield helps as well. You'll note that Elway's completion percentage spiked when he got to play in more modern offenses with Fassel and Shanny. You have to look a little deeper. Maybe it won't be an issue, and as I said I am convinced at this point that Tebow won't be a complete washout and we'll be able to win with him paired with a quality D and running game. But will he be able to beat a time like, say, Pittsburgh in January if they are able to contain him in the pocket? I'm not convinced of that yet.

It has a lot to do with the 5 yard rule and the fact you cant touch the WR seems at all during a pass either. Wasnt like that in Elway or Fouts era. That has a ton to do with the completion percentages in that era.

I remember watching a Steelers/Raiders game and the Raiders CB George Atknson was on Swann and the play went away from them on the other side of the field and Atkinson hit Swann in the back of the head with his forearm knocking him to the ground and gave Swann a concussion and he was obviously out of the game. No penalty was called.

Now you do that, you get ejected and fined.

AmericanBroncFan
01-02-2011, 06:44 PM
Completion percentage does not tell you all you need to know about accuracy. Guys in today's era tend to complete a much higher percentage just by virtue of the fact that most offenses utilize the short passing game a great deal more, plus the rules that don't allow the defender to touch receivers downfield helps as well. You'll note that Elway's completion percentage spiked when he got to play in more modern offenses with Fassel and Shanny. You have to look a little deeper. Maybe it won't be an issue, and as I said I am convinced at this point that Tebow won't be a complete washout and we'll be able to win with him paired with a quality D and running game. But will he be able to beat a time like, say, Pittsburgh in January if they are able to contain him in the pocket? I'm not convinced of that yet.

There might be only 2 or 3 QB's that can beat Pitt in January as it is. What's your point?

Hamrob
01-02-2011, 06:50 PM
It was only like a month ago that Elway flat out stated that he didn't want personnel decision making responsibilities because he had no experience with it, so hopefully he will stick by that and allow a GM to run the personnel side of things (hopefully not Xanders, but I'd be willing to give him a chance since he's never gotten a shot at that before). If Elway takes a large role on the personnel side of things, I have practically no hope of things ending well.It's already a done deal with Xanders. Xanders is now the GM with full GM responsibilities reporting to Elway. Haven't you read the news?

Bronco Yoda
01-02-2011, 06:54 PM
Defense

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 06:56 PM
It's already a done deal with Xanders. Xanders is now the GM with full GM responsibilities reporting to Elway. Haven't you read the news?

The Elway hire still isn't totally official, so I wouldn't get too far ahead of yourself there.

Hamrob
01-02-2011, 06:57 PM
Orton only threw for a 58% completion percentage. Elway was 57% for his career. And both Bradford and Freeman are only at 60%.

I think with the right game plan and with a full offseason with the #1 offense...Tim Tebow will be a 60% + passer.

You heard it here first.

For the record...Tim Tebow was a 66% completion percentage QB over 4yrs in College.

Cito Pelon
01-02-2011, 06:59 PM
Vick has been more accurate this season, for sure. We will see if that holds up in the playoffs. Also, Vick, by his own admission was not a very hard worker or very disciplined earlier in his career. So, I am sure that didn't help his accuracy. We know Tebow will put in the work...we don't know if he has that innate ability to place the ball exactly where it needs to be. I admit that it may not be a problem, but I am concerned about it. That's all I'm saying.

That's fine with me. I can see how there is room for skepticism. But I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Archer81
01-02-2011, 07:01 PM
Orton only threw for a 58% completion percentage. Elway was 57% for his career. And both Bradford and Freeman are only at 60%.

I think with the right game plan and with a full offseason with the #1 offense...Tim Tebow will be a 60% + passer.

You heard it here first.

For the record...Tim Tebow was a 66% completion percentage QB over 4yrs in College.


Completion % means nothing!

Rabble rabble rabble!

:Broncos:

dbroncos31
01-02-2011, 07:03 PM
Posted this in another thread, but it works here too.

For an idea of what Tebow could do next year, I projected Tebow's stats from his three starts this year into a 16 game season, pro-rating his passing numbers to 30 attempts per game. I then compared him him to other QBs. This is after playing defenses rated 7, 14, and 30) by Football Outsiders weighted defensive DVOA (non-weighted ranks are 5, 18, and 31). Because these three defenses hold an average weighted rank of 17 (basically average), we do not need to adjust based on defenses.

Tim Tebow (NFL Rank)
480 Attempts (13)
237 Completions (22)
3,858 Yards (7)
49.4% Completion Percentage (33)
8.04 Yards/Att (5)
16.28 Yards/Comp (1)
24 TDs (12)
18 Ints (16) [among QBs with >400 attempts]

144 Carries (34, 1 among QB)
1083 Yards (14, 1 among QB)
7.5 Yards/Carry (1 among players with >100 attempts)
16 TDs (1)

So he most likely won't put up these numbers next year, but I think the fact that we have a QB who did put up these type of numbers in his only starts means we need to see what he can do over a 16 game season. Clearly needs to work on his completion percentage, but all of the other numbers look fantastic.

DO NOT trade up for Luck. DEFENSE DEFENSE DEFENSE

driver
01-02-2011, 07:06 PM
I`d give up our no.1 and Tebow....but no more. Might want a future conditional pick as well.

When you have a reasonable chance at a QB like Luck, you have to take it.

I heard the same things said about Ryan leaf, etc, etc "can't miss" "sure thing"
funny but I think it was the same bunch of dufuses talking about Leaf and George and last year it was Clausen. Build a damn defense.

backup qb
01-02-2011, 07:07 PM
Defense, defense, and more defense. Oh, and a TE that can catch.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 07:08 PM
LOL at 24 passing TDs and 16 rushing TDs...that really is a different kind of QB in the NFL...

Hamrob
01-02-2011, 07:10 PM
The Elway hire still isn't totally official, so I wouldn't get too far ahead of yourself there.F-off and learn to read:

VP of Ops: John Elway
GM: Xanders
HC: Harbaugh

Elway set to run Broncos:Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on January 2, 2011, 9:32 AM EST
John Elway is ready to run the football operations of the Denver Broncos.

Adam Schefter of ESPN reports that Elway and the Broncos have reached agreement on a deal that will make Elway an executive VP of the team. The Denver Post reported all week that Elway’s hiring was imminent and wrote Sunday morning that Elway will get the title of VP of football operations. That’s the same title Mike Shanahan held in Denver when he wielded total authority over all things Broncos for more than a decade.

G.M. Brian Xanders will reportedly answer to Elway and Schefter reports the first order of business for Elway will be to try to hire Jim Harbaugh from Stanford. (Wonder if Elway has any connections there?)

Everyone around the team insists this is more than a P.R. move and Elway will truly be running the show despite no NFL experience.

That’s exactly what has the rest of the NFL smiling and nodding.


Near Certainty, Harbaugh leaves StanfordPosted by Gregg Rosenthal on January 2, 2011, 12:33 PM EST
Jim Harbaugh is on his way out of Stanford; the only question is where he will go.

That’s the news, according to ESPN’s Adam Schefter. The 49ers and Broncos will go after Harbaugh hard, although San Francisco’s lack of success (and lack of a quarterback) will reportedly make Harbaugh pause before taking the gig. Schefter thinks Harbaugh will decide shortly after coaching Stanford in the Orange Bowl and could be a NFL head coach by the middle of next week.

Carolina is not expected to go after Harbaugh, instead looking for an established NFL assistant coach.

Harbaugh’s decision to leave Stanford could affect the NFL in another big way. It would seemingly open the door for Stanford quarterback Andrew Luck to go pro.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 07:14 PM
F-off and learn to read:

VP of Ops: John Elway
GM: Xanders
HC: Harbaugh

Elway set to run Broncos:Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on January 2, 2011, 9:32 AM EST
John Elway is ready to run the football operations of the Denver Broncos.

Adam Schefter of ESPN reports that Elway and the Broncos have reached agreement on a deal that will make Elway an executive VP of the team. The Denver Post reported all week that Elway’s hiring was imminent and wrote Sunday morning that Elway will get the title of VP of football operations. That’s the same title Mike Shanahan held in Denver when he wielded total authority over all things Broncos for more than a decade.

G.M. Brian Xanders will reportedly answer to Elway and Schefter reports the first order of business for Elway will be to try to hire Jim Harbaugh from Stanford. (Wonder if Elway has any connections there?)

Everyone around the team insists this is more than a P.R. move and Elway will truly be running the show despite no NFL experience.

That’s exactly what has the rest of the NFL smiling and nodding.


Near Certainty, Harbaugh leaves StanfordPosted by Gregg Rosenthal on January 2, 2011, 12:33 PM EST
Jim Harbaugh is on his way out of Stanford; the only question is where he will go.

That’s the news, according to ESPN’s Adam Schefter. The 49ers and Broncos will go after Harbaugh hard, although San Francisco’s lack of success (and lack of a quarterback) will reportedly make Harbaugh pause before taking the gig. Schefter thinks Harbaugh will decide shortly after coaching Stanford in the Orange Bowl and could be a NFL head coach by the middle of next week.

Carolina is not expected to go after Harbaugh, instead looking for an established NFL assistant coach.

Harbaugh’s decision to leave Stanford could affect the NFL in another big way. It would seemingly open the door for Stanford quarterback Andrew Luck to go pro.

Do you understand what the word "official" means? None of that is official...

Hamrob
01-02-2011, 07:15 PM
Do you understand what the word "official" means? None of that is official...You must be new to the Broncos scene? Adam Schefter is reporting it....it's a done deal!:approve:

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 07:19 PM
You must be new to the Broncos scene? Adam Schefter is reporting it....it's a done deal!:approve:

Except for the times he's wrong...

Anyway, my point is more that all the official details have yet to come out. Xanders job is far from guaranteed at this point.

Hamrob
01-02-2011, 07:28 PM
Except for the times he's wrong...

Anyway, my point is more that all the official details have yet to come out. Xanders job is far from guaranteed at this point.If you believe that...I have some ocean front property in AZ I'll sell you for truly terriffic price???

Cito Pelon
01-02-2011, 07:34 PM
I heard the same things said about Ryan leaf, etc, etc "can't miss" "sure thing"
funny but I think it was the same bunch of dufuses talking about Leaf and George and last year it was Clausen. Build a damn defense.

Yup.

epicSocialism4tw
01-02-2011, 07:38 PM
Kijana Carter, Steve Emtman, Todd Marinovich, Dan McGwire...all sure things.

BroncosSR
01-02-2011, 07:41 PM
The guys lowest completion % in college was 64. He's obviously got a history of putting the ball where it can be caught.

You kidding right? His repertoire in college was the screen pass... He's never been an accurate passer, even in college.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 07:44 PM
You kidding right? His repertoire in college was the screen pass... He's never been an accurate passer, even in college.

He had more deep passes than pretty much anyone I've ever seen in college, but hey you're the expert. Hilarious!

BroncosSR
01-02-2011, 07:46 PM
He had more deep passes than pretty much anyone I've ever seen in college, but hey you're the expert. Hilarious!

Well apparently you seem to be. Do you go to church with him?

Boltjolt
01-02-2011, 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by driver http://www.orangemane.com/BB/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=3066877#post3066877)
I heard the same things said about Ryan leaf, etc, etc "can't miss" "sure thing"
funny but I think it was the same bunch of dufuses talking about Leaf and George and last year it was Clausen. Build a damn defense.


You might be surprised to know that Leaf won his first two NFL starts.

epicSocialism4tw
01-02-2011, 07:47 PM
Well apparently you seem to be. Do you go to church with him?

How do you like the "hater" label?

BroncosSR
01-02-2011, 07:48 PM
He had more deep passes than pretty much anyone I've ever seen in college, but hey you're the expert. Hilarious!

Oh hell, as long as it's pretty much anyone you've ever seen in college, I'll take it as fact then.

BroncosSR
01-02-2011, 07:50 PM
How do you like the "hater" label?

I actually don't hate him one bit. I think what he's done in the last few games is great. Despite that, I personally am not ready to mortgage the future of the QB position on Tebow.

If that makes me a hater, so be it...

Cito Pelon
01-02-2011, 07:55 PM
Build the dang D. Denver used to kick ass on D for many a year. It's been way too long since Denver was known for the kickass D.

NFLBRONCO
01-02-2011, 07:58 PM
I look at it this way we locked up the 2nd pick today. Now we need to see who declares on the 15th and who we hire as HC next.

As of today I think DL is a lock at 2.

Imo Denver should move down to 6 or so. We could use more picks for rebuild and still get a quality player.

Durango
01-02-2011, 07:58 PM
If Luck is there you take him without a second thought, then you can draft defense until the cows come home. You don't get a chance at the John Elway caliber QB's very often, if ever for most teams. If you're even within range of drafting one of these guys, you bend heaven and earth to get him.

epicSocialism4tw
01-02-2011, 08:03 PM
I actually don't hate him one bit. I think what he's done in the last few games is great. Despite that, I personally am not ready to mortgage the future of the QB position on Tebow.

If that makes me a hater, so be it...

The future of the QB position is already mortaged on Tebow. The Broncos did that when they spent a handful of picks to move into the first round to draft him. All of this after trading away Cutler.

Tebow is the Broncos future QB.

There are no magical machinations in conspiratorial starchambers that will change that.

Just strap in and enjoy the ride.

Cito Pelon
01-02-2011, 08:07 PM
I look at it this way we locked up the 2nd pick today. Now we need to see who declares on the 15th and who we hire as HC next.

As of today I think DL is a lock at 2.

Imo Denver should move down to 6 or so. We could use more picks for rebuild and still get a quality player.

That's what I'm thinking right now. We'll see how it plays out.

Cito Pelon
01-02-2011, 08:09 PM
If Luck is there you take him without a second thought, then you can draft defense until the cows come home. You don't get a chance at the John Elway caliber QB's very often, if ever for most teams. If you're even within range of drafting one of these guys, you bend heaven and earth to get him.

So then you trade Tebow? Or do you trade Luck? One of them has to go for picks.

Dedhed
01-02-2011, 08:10 PM
I actually don't hate him one bit. I think what he's done in the last few games is great. Despite that, I personally am not ready to mortgage the future of the QB position on Tebow.


How exactly would we be mortgaging anything to go forward with Tebow? I don't think you understand the concept of a mortgage.

Trading picks that could be used to build a defense to get Luck would be the definition of mortgaging the future.

We already own Tebow, we don't have to mortgage anything.

BroncosSR
01-02-2011, 08:11 PM
The future of the QB position is already mortaged on Tebow. The Broncos did that when they spent a handful of picks to move into the first round to draft him. All of this after trading away Cutler.

Tebow is the Broncos future QB.

There are no magical machinations in conspiratorial starchambers that will change that.

Just strap in and enjoy the ride.

True, if McD was still the coach. After running this organization into the ground, he is no longer the coach. Now if the new coach doesn't believe Tebow is the future, he will be shown the door as quick as Cutler was with McD. It's the same situation. The new coach will install a system and QB of his liking, irregardless of who is currently on the roster.

BroncosSR
01-02-2011, 08:17 PM
How exactly would we be mortgaging anything to go forward with Tebow? I don't think you understand the concept of a mortgage.

Trading picks that could be used to build a defense to get Luck would be the definition of mortgaging the future.

We already own Tebow, we don't have to mortgage anything.

Yes, I do understand the concept of a mortgage. Do you? If not, let me elaborate...

I don't personally feel completely secure with Tebow as the QB of the future. Therefore, with the opportunity to acquire Luck, staying with Tebow is a risk to me. The defense will not be built with one draft pick in the 1st round.

epicSocialism4tw
01-02-2011, 08:18 PM
True, if McD was still the coach. After running this organization into the ground, he is no longer the coach. Now if the new coach doesn't believe Tebow is the future, he will be shown the door as quick as Cutler was with McD. It's the same situation. The new coach will install a system and QB of his liking, irregardless of who is currently on the roster.

A coach in Denver will not be able to destroy resources like that any time soon.

The resources are what is important, not the coach. You can always get another coach. You cannot replace resources at will.

Durango
01-02-2011, 08:20 PM
So then you trade Tebow? Or do you trade Luck? One of them has to go for picks.

Trade Tebow. From the looks of Chad Henne, Miami would love to have him, plus he would sell tickets.

I like Tebow. This is not any disrespect for him whatsoever. It's just a replay of the old argument that the NFL is a QB driven league and when you get a shot at one of the premier talents at the position, you take it and never look back.

epicSocialism4tw
01-02-2011, 08:21 PM
Wow, ok, so I'll spell it out for you.

I don't personally feel completely secure with Tebow as the QB of the future. Therefore, with the opportunity to acquire Luck, staying with Tebow is a risk to me. The defense will not be built with one draft pick in the 1st round.

There is no opportunity to acquire Luck.

Thats a fantasy.

Nor is there a need to acquire Luck.

That's mismanagement.

BroncosSR
01-02-2011, 08:21 PM
A coach in Denver will not be able to destroy resources like that any time soon.

The resources are what is important, not the coach. You can always get another coach. You cannot replace resources at will.

How can you not replace resources? Isn't that the entire point of free agency and the draft?

epicSocialism4tw
01-02-2011, 08:22 PM
Trade Tebow. From the looks of Chad Henne, Miami would love to have him, plus he would sell tickets.

I like Tebow. This is not any disrespect for him whatsoever. It's just a replay of the old argument that the NFL is a QB driven league and when you get a shot at one of the premier talents at the position, you take it and never look back.

You are convinced that Luck is better than Tebow by having worse results over a shorter period of time against inferior opponents?

Tebow has been outstanding in the NFL as a rookie, and you want to throw that away to take a flier on a one-hit wonder?

misturanderson
01-02-2011, 08:22 PM
Yes, I do understand the concept of a mortgage. Do you? If not, let me elaborate...

I don't personally feel completely secure with Tebow as the QB of the future. Therefore, with the opportunity to acquire Luck, staying with Tebow is a risk to me. The defense will not be built with one draft pick in the 1st round.

It's going to take more than 1 draft pick to get Luck. That was guaranteed as soon as we won our 3rd game.

epicSocialism4tw
01-02-2011, 08:24 PM
How can you not replace resources? Isn't that the entire point of free agency and the draft?

Thats why we dont have any talent right now, dude.

Its completely insane to want the team to do that to itself for the third year in a row.

BroncosSR
01-02-2011, 08:25 PM
There is no opportunity to acquire Luck.

Thats a fantasy.

Nor is there a need to acquire Luck.

That's mismanagement.

You call it a mismanagement, others might call it righting a wrong. Listen, we can argue all day. I was simply stating that a QB like Luck comes out very rarely. And in no way do I believe it's a fantasy. Hell, after McD trading Cutler, I think anything is possible. We have Tebow and/or Orton to dangle in front of Carolina with our 2nd pick. Stranger things have happened. Remember Elway getting drafted? Or even more recently, Rivers/Manning?

BroncosSR
01-02-2011, 08:26 PM
It's going to take more than 1 draft pick to get Luck. That was guaranteed as soon as we won our 3rd game.

I understand that. This was all under the presumption that there was an **opportunity** to acquire him...

epicSocialism4tw
01-02-2011, 08:26 PM
You call it a mismanagement, others might call it righting a wrong. Listen, we can argue all day. I was simply stating that a QB like Luck comes out very rarely. And in no way do I believe it's a fantasy. Hell, after McD trading Cutler, I think anything is possible. We have Tebow and/or Orton to dangle in front of Carolina with our 2nd pick. Stranger things have happened. Remember Elway getting drafted? Or even more recently, Rivers/Manning?

A QB better than Luck came out last year.

Make that two, because Luck has yet to take an NFL snap.

He might play QB like Betty White for all you know.

BroncosSR
01-02-2011, 08:30 PM
Thats why we dont have any talent right now, dude.

Its completely insane to want the team to do that to itself for the third year in a row.

We have no talent right now because McD traded talent for system guys a la Maroney, etc. Clearly this is not what I'm saying.

Dedhed
01-02-2011, 08:31 PM
Yes, I do understand the concept of a mortgage. Do you? If not, let me elaborate...

I don't personally feel completely secure with Tebow as the QB of the future. Therefore, with the opportunity to acquire Luck, staying with Tebow is a risk to me. The defense will not be built with one draft pick in the 1st round.

You should have just said that in the first place instead of misusing the term "mortgage", which you don't understand.

Dedhed
01-02-2011, 08:33 PM
We have no talent right now because McD traded talent for system guys a la Maroney, etc. Clearly this is not what I'm saying.
We have no talent right now because the leaders of this franchise have refused to build a defense in favor of going after glowing offensive players who have flopped.

epicSocialism4tw
01-02-2011, 08:35 PM
We have no talent right now because McD traded talent for system guys a la Maroney, etc. Clearly this is not what I'm saying.

Thats exactly what you're asking for.

You are asking for the Broncos to 1) waste its largest asset on a position with a promising rook + a solid vet, and 2) to waste even more assets in moving into a position to draft that player...who plays one of the few already strong positions.

Basically you are asking the Broncos to burn up their best assets to draft an already strong position. Hence, wasting assets that absolutely need to be used on the defense to potentially ruin your QB strengths.

Not. Smart.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 08:40 PM
We have no talent right now because the leaders of this franchise have refused to build a defense in favor of going after glowing offensive players who have flopped.

We actually do have talent. It's almost all on offense, and it's probably only average in that case.

We have virtually no talent on defense. That is why we went 4-12 this year. That and a dash of choking by our starting QB.

BroncosSR
01-02-2011, 08:40 PM
You should have just said that in the first place instead of misusing the term "mortgage", which you don't understand.

Damn your right. I thought I meant applying for a 30-year fixed rate loan at a rate of 4.3%.

Now go read a book.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 08:41 PM
Thats exactly what you're asking for.

You are asking for the Broncos to 1) waste its largest asset on a position with a promising rook + a solid vet, and 2) to waste even more assets in moving into a position to draft that player...who plays one of the few already strong positions.

Basically you are asking the Broncos to burn up their best assets to draft an already strong position. Hence, wasting assets that absolutely need to be used on the defense to potentially ruin your QB strengths.

Not. Smart.

Indeed. What's the opposite of smart again? :~ohyah!:

misturanderson
01-02-2011, 08:43 PM
A QB better than Luck came out last year.

Make that two, because Luck has yet to take an NFL snap.

He might play QB like Betty White for all you know.

Yet another OU homer not understanding that Bradford's success this year in no way makes Luck a worse PROSPECT than Bradford was coming out last year.

Luck is THE BEST QB PROSPECT to come out in 10 years due to his physical skills, mental skills, those skills' ability to be translated to the NFL game and his work (and dominance) in a pro-style system, without much elite talent around him, in college. Bradford was a system QB in college with serious injury concerns coming out of college, he played well this year, but he was not even close to as good a prospect as Luck is.

The draft is about POTENTIAL, something Luck has more of than Bradford did coming out of school, none of these players are guaranteed to do well. And Bradford's success (for a rookie) doesn't change Luck's potential.

BroncosSR
01-02-2011, 08:43 PM
Thats exactly what you're asking for.

You are asking for the Broncos to 1) waste its largest asset on a position with a promising rook + a solid vet, and 2) to waste even more assets in moving into a position to draft that player...who plays one of the few already strong positions.

Basically you are asking the Broncos to burn up their best assets to draft an already strong position. Hence, wasting assets that absolutely need to be used on the defense to potentially ruin your QB strengths.

Not. Smart.

Here's where we diverge. You feel we are already strong at this position. I do not.

End of discussion.

Cosmo
01-02-2011, 08:43 PM
I don't understand all this trade Tebow talk.

Let's examine the scenario.

We have the 2nd pick of the draft, not the first, nor is it known whether Luck is coming out or not.

Let's assume he is coming out. Can we trade Tebow before the draft assuming we get Luck? Hell no.

Ok, so let's see if we can draft Luck and then trade Tebow....oh wait, then everyone knows we want to move Tebow and can't get a stick of gum and a cracker jack toy. We've lost enough players with talent over the last 2 years, we'd be stupid to do it again on the gamble that Luck will pan out as he's supposed to.

How many QB's taken in the first 5 picks become anything? Is there a sure way of knowing?

All I know is this, if I was a coach (let's say similar to Harbaugh) I don't plan on Luck falling, nor do I shake Tebow's world by letting on that you even might. I'd go as far as to publically announce that Tebow is our man. Then, if Luck falls, you do your best to work out a trade (saying Tebow is your QB doesn't make your position less strong, because if Luck is passed, everyone needing a QB will be knocking on our door). You draft Defense and install a proper running game with free agency (Mauling RT, perhaps a better guard), give Moreno one more shot. You then let Tebow develop around a good running game and play action (Imagine Tebow on the bootleg).

Anyways, the thought of drafting Luck isn't appealing. Unless everyone on defense in the senior bowl and the combine look like trash, its not even an option in my opinion. Dilfer won with a good defense and he had about 20% of the talent and work ethic that Tebow has. Dominant D + running game + Tebow = better team than Luck + crappy D. Luck would probably get killed with our O line anyhow. With the current rookie contract reconfiguration, we'd be lucky to fix the O-line for him by the time he hits Free agency.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 08:46 PM
I don't understand all this trade Tebow talk.

Let's examine the scenario.

We have the 2nd pick of the draft, not the first, nor is it known whether Luck is coming out or not.

Let's assume he is coming out. Can we trade Tebow before the draft assuming we get Luck? Hell no.

Ok, so let's see if we can draft Luck and then trade Tebow....oh wait, then everyone knows we want to move Tebow and can't get a stick of gum and a cracker jack toy. We've lost enough players with talent over the last 2 years, we'd be stupid to do it again on the gamble that Luck will pan out as he's supposed to.

How many QB's taken in the first 5 picks become anything? Is there a sure way of knowing?

All I know is this, if I was a coach (let's say similar to Harbaugh) I don't plan on Luck falling, nor do I shake Tebow's world by letting on that you even might. I'd go as far as to publically announce that Tebow is our man. Then, if Luck falls, you do your best to work out a trade (saying Tebow is your QB doesn't make your position less strong, because if Luck is passed, everyone needing a QB will be knocking on our door). You draft Defense and install a proper running game with free agency (Mauling RT, perhaps a better guard), give Moreno one more shot. You then let Tebow develop around a good running game and play action (Imagine Tebow on the bootleg).

Anyways, the thought of drafting Luck isn't appealing. Unless everyone on defense in the senior bowl and the combine look like trash, its not even an option in my opinion. Dilfer won with a good defense and he had about 20% of the talent and work ethic that Tebow has. Dominant D + running game + Tebow = better team than Luck + crappy D. Luck would probably get killed with our O line anyhow. With the current rookie contract reconfiguration, we'd be lucky to fix the O-line for him by the time he hits Free agency.

To be fair, Luck is very mobile.

I agree with everything you said otherwise.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 08:47 PM
Here's where we diverge. You somehow are saying he our largest asset. I am not.

End of discussion.

Umm, I think he was referring to the #2 pick...

BroncosSR
01-02-2011, 08:48 PM
I don't understand all this trade Tebow talk.

Let's examine the scenario.

We have the 2nd pick of the draft, not the first, nor is it known whether Luck is coming out or not.

Let's assume he is coming out. Can we trade Tebow before the draft assuming we get Luck? Hell no.

Ok, so let's see if we can draft Luck and then trade Tebow....oh wait, then everyone knows we want to move Tebow and can't get a stick of gum and a cracker jack toy. We've lost enough players with talent over the last 2 years, we'd be stupid to do it again on the gamble that Luck will pan out as he's supposed to.

How many QB's taken in the first 5 picks become anything? Is there a sure way of knowing?

All I know is this, if I was a coach (let's say similar to Harbaugh) I don't plan on Luck falling, nor do I shake Tebow's world by letting on that you even might. I'd go as far as to publically announce that Tebow is our man. Then, if Luck falls, you do your best to work out a trade (saying Tebow is your QB doesn't make your position less strong, because if Luck is passed, everyone needing a QB will be knocking on our door). You draft Defense and install a proper running game with free agency (Mauling RT, perhaps a better guard), give Moreno one more shot. You then let Tebow develop around a good running game and play action (Imagine Tebow on the bootleg).

Anyways, the thought of drafting Luck isn't appealing. Unless everyone on defense in the senior bowl and the combine look like trash, its not even an option in my opinion. Dilfer won with a good defense and he had about 20% of the talent and work ethic that Tebow has. Dominant D + running game + Tebow = better team than Luck + crappy D. Luck would probably get killed with our O line anyhow. With the current rookie contract reconfiguration, we'd be lucky to fix the O-line for him by the time he hits Free agency.


What's to say we couldn't do this all at the same time?? With the same team??

Carolina's needs are very similar to ours. We hang Tebow/Orton in front of them with our 2nd and possibly a later pick.

Cosmo
01-02-2011, 08:49 PM
To be fair, Luck is very mobile.

I agree with everything you said otherwise.

I realize this, but he doesn't have Tebow's Feet or physique (yes, I know he is 235 lbs).

BroncosSR
01-02-2011, 08:49 PM
Umm, I think he was referring to the #2 pick...

You're right, I read that wrong. Fixed above.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 08:51 PM
Yet another OU homer not understanding that Bradford's success this year in no way makes Luck a worse PROSPECT than Bradford was coming out last year.

Luck is THE BEST QB PROSPECT to come out in 10 years due to his physical skills, mental skills, those skills' ability to be translated to the NFL game and his work (and dominance) in a pro-style system, without much elite talent around him, in college. Bradford was a system QB in college with serious injury concerns coming out of college, he played well this year, but he was not even close to as good a prospect as Luck is.

The draft is about POTENTIAL, something Luck has more of than Bradford did coming out of school, none of these players are guaranteed to do well. And Bradford's success (for a rookie) doesn't change Luck's potential.

Luck's "dominance" is predicated on a powerful run game and a lot of very weak opponents. It's a mirage. He may end up being great, but it'll have little to do with his "dominance" at a rather pedestrian level of competition. Sorry, but there is nothing about Luck that makes him any more sure a thing than all the other sure things that have fallen flat after being drafted with a top draft pick.

Cosmo
01-02-2011, 08:51 PM
What's to say we couldn't do this all at the same time?? With the same team??

Carolina's needs are very similar to ours. We hang Tebow/Orton in front of them with our 2nd and possibly a later pick.

Perhaps, still doesn't solve our Defensive woes or how to protect Luck.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 08:54 PM
I realize this, but he doesn't have Tebow's Feet or physique (yes, I know he is 235 lbs).

I've always doubted that weight. The eyes tell me the difference is quite a bit more than 10 pounds.

BroncosSR
01-02-2011, 08:56 PM
Perhaps, still doesn't solve our Defensive woes or how to protect Luck.

Completely agree. I'd be hoping that we can find some D talent with our other picks and **gasp*** a new defensive coordinator...

misturanderson
01-02-2011, 08:59 PM
Luck's "dominance" is predicated on a powerful run game and a lot of very weak opponents. It's a mirage. He may end up being great, but it'll have little to do with his "dominance" at a rather pedestrian level of competition. Sorry, but there is nothing about Luck that makes him any more sure a thing than all the other sure things that have fallen flat after being drafted with a top draft pick.

Have fun believing that. I agree that the PAC 10 is a weak conference compared to the SEC (not compared to any other conference though), but Luck also has very little elite talent around him. He plays at a school with some of the most stringent acceptance requirements in the country. It's not like he is playing at an SEC/Big 12 school that lets anyone with a pulse in.

The PAC 10 isn't any worse than any other conference outside of the SEC, so maybe nobody should be drafted until everyone that played in SEC is drafted first. Would that make the most sense?

I'm not advocating taking Luck over defense because I don't think any QB will have success until we fix our D, but I won't be horribly upset if we end up getting Luck because of how good he is as a prospect.

tsiguy96
01-02-2011, 08:59 PM
still cant believe people are playing the "no talent" card because mcd traded it all. shanahan won more, but the players were as bad or worse when he was here. i know you all want to say "OMG RECORD!!!1!" but its true, look objectively at the players now vs the players then.

ayjackson
01-02-2011, 09:03 PM
I don't understand all this trade Tebow talk.

Dilfer won with a good defense and he had about 20% of the talent and work ethic that Tebow has.

I don`t really have a problem with anything you said, but I`ve seen `you can win with Dilfer`in a few places and I have to object. It really is a rarity that you win with a mediocre QB....

1. Brees
2. Rothlisberger
3. Manning
4. Manning
5. Rothlisberger
6. Brady
7. Brady
8. Johnson
9. Brady
10. Dilfer
11. Warner
12. Elway
13. Elway
14. Favre
15. Aikman
16. Young
17. Aikman
18. Aikman

BroncosSR
01-02-2011, 09:04 PM
still cant believe people are playing the "no talent" card because mcd traded it all. shanahan won more, but the players were as bad or worse when he was here. i know you all want to say "OMG RECORD!!!1!" but its true, look objectively at the players now vs the players then.

Shanahan was here 13+ years.

McD was here >2.

I'm not sure where you are going with this...

Cosmo
01-02-2011, 09:07 PM
If I had to share my dream scenario, here it is (keep in mind, this can change as the offseason progresses):

Coach: Harbaugh
OC: Whoever Harbaugh sees fit
DC: Whoever Harbaugh sees fit

QB: Tebow
RB: Moreno, let all others go, sign a Bruiser (i.e. Michael Bush) and either a low round pick or an all purpose vet.
WR: Leave as is, resign Lloyd
OL: Sign RT, let Harris go.
DL: Both 2nd rounders.
LB: Some good free agents, if we get Harbaugh, we keep 3-4, sign Rudd or another MLB to complement DJ.
CB: Resign Champ, draft Peterson (play at FS if we keep Goodie and Cox doesn't go to jail, takes over for Goodie or Champ otherwise), let the young S's and CB's step up.

I'd say if we can follow this, we can easily put up a nice 9-7 season barring injuries. If we draft Luck, we'd probably be looking at 6-10. 2nd year we make playoffs.

Again, just my current pipe dream.

Cosmo
01-02-2011, 09:09 PM
I don`t really have a problem with anything you said, but I`ve seen `you can win with Dilfer`in a few places and I have to object. It really is a rarity that you win with a mediocre QB....

1. Brees
2. Rothlisberger
3. Manning
4. Manning
5. Rothlisberger
6. Brady
7. Brady
8. Johnson
9. Brady
10. Dilfer
11. Warner
12. Elway
13. Elway
14. Favre
15. Aikman
16. Young
17. Aikman
18. Aikman

Here's the thing though, no one says Tebow can't be elite, its all about when he gets better (good, great or elite). We'd be lucky to make playoffs in 2 years with Luck, we have that shot fixing the D and staying with Tebow.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-02-2011, 09:09 PM
Except for the times he's wrong...

Anyway, my point is more that all the official details have yet to come out. Xanders job is far from guaranteed at this point.

You must really be new here huh?
ROFL!


Questioning Schef is a not generally a wise bet with NFL news in general considering his peers, and his Broncos record is generally never wrong.

footstepsfrom#27
01-02-2011, 09:09 PM
What's to say we couldn't do this all at the same time?? With the same team??

Carolina's needs are very similar to ours. We hang Tebow/Orton in front of them with our 2nd and possibly a later pick.
And they laugh in our faces. They'll get significantly better offers than that for a guy NFL people think is the next Manning. Bottom line...he's to expensive, to risky and to inconvenient given the crying need for defense.

peacepipe
01-02-2011, 09:12 PM
Luck's "dominance" is predicated on a powerful run game and a lot of very weak opponents. It's a mirage. He may end up being great, but it'll have little to do with his "dominance" at a rather pedestrian level of competition. Sorry, but there is nothing about Luck that makes him any more sure a thing than all the other sure things that have fallen flat after being drafted with a top draft pick.USC,Oregon, & washington are week opponents? last I checked wash. just beat Neb. in their bowl game & Oregon is playing Auburn for the national championship.

tsiguy96
01-02-2011, 09:13 PM
Shanahan was here 13+ years.

McD was here >2.

I'm not sure where you are going with this...

shanahan had 10 years to build the team, and he left with marquand manuel, marlon mcree, jamie winborn, nate website and niko koutasomething as starters. are you serious?

snowspot66
01-02-2011, 09:15 PM
You kidding right? His repertoire in college was the screen pass... He's never been an accurate passer, even in college.

All I know is 64 to 70%, his range of completion percentages in college, isn't all screen passes. And that doesn't change the fact that to hit a screen you still have to throw it accurately. So what is it? He can't throw it short or he can't throw it long? Because apparently he can throw it short all day long if he threw that many screens and we've seen him hit a lot of longer throws pretty well in his three pro games.

*edit*

Just looked up the stats. Jake "Can't hit a barn" Plummer managed the break 60% with us twice. I would be stunned if Tebow can't out do that. Jake Plummer is the definition of a QB that isn't accurate and doesn't have an arm and we not only won with him but had our best season of an entire decade with him.

peacepipe
01-02-2011, 09:15 PM
And they laugh in our faces. They'll get significantly better offers than that for a guy NFL people think is the next Manning. Bottom line...he's to expensive, to risky and to inconvenient given the crying need for defense.then he's worth the price.

Tombstone RJ
01-02-2011, 09:16 PM
Yet another OU homer not understanding that Bradford's success this year in no way makes Luck a worse PROSPECT than Bradford was coming out last year.

Luck is THE BEST QB PROSPECT to come out in 10 years due to his physical skills, mental skills, those skills' ability to be translated to the NFL game and his work (and dominance) in a pro-style system, without much elite talent around him, in college. Bradford was a system QB in college with serious injury concerns coming out of college, he played well this year, but he was not even close to as good a prospect as Luck is.

The draft is about POTENTIAL, something Luck has more of than Bradford did coming out of school, none of these players are guaranteed to do well. And Bradford's success (for a rookie) doesn't change Luck's potential.

Oh really? Most people had never even heard of Luck before this season. All of a sudden he's the best QB in the last 10 years? Not buying it.

Bradford was a better prospect.

BroncosSR
01-02-2011, 09:18 PM
shanahan had 10 years to build the team, and he left with marquand manuel, marlon mcree, jamie winborn, nate website and niko koutasomething as starters. are you serious?

I'm just saying it's hard to compare talent levels between the two when Shanny had 13+ years worth of players come and go and McD had less than 2.

Shanny somehow managed to win 2 superbowls in there as well.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 09:18 PM
Oh really? Had anyone even heard of Luck before this season? Nope. All of a sudden he's the best QB in the last 10 years? Not buying it.

Bradford was a better prospect.

No, Luck has been known as a potential prospect before this year.

Cosmo
01-02-2011, 09:20 PM
Also, not sure about you guys but I'm not willing to give up Tebow's Red Zone ability. We've been like 90% efficient in the red zone with him in there. His middle game will come with time.

misturanderson
01-02-2011, 09:21 PM
Oh really? Had anyone even heard of Luck before this season? Nope. All of a sudden he's the best QB in the last 10 years? Not buying it.

Bradford was a better prospect.

Anyone that follows the draft closely heard of Luck last year. He was on the radar as probably the best QB propect going forward along with Mallet (and some idiots that followed Kiper's ideas thought that Locker would be good despite crap stats).

You don't know what you're talking about, but if you think that a guy surrounded by elite talent, playing against mostly crap defenses, in a system made to put up ridiculous stats and that injured, and had surgery, on his throwing shoulder instead of playing his last year in college is a better prospect than Luck...well, at least some OU homers will agree with you. Nobody else will though.

Clockwork Orange
01-02-2011, 09:22 PM
shanahan had 10 years to build the team, and he left with marquand manuel, marlon mcree, jamie winborn, nate website and niko koutasomething as starters. are you serious?

And how exactly is it so much better now? Shanahan did a **** job of building this defense over the past several years of his tenure here (specifically the front seven) but McDaniels seemed very dedicated to carrying on that tradition. One of the reasons his teams sucked so badly and why he's currently out of a job.

misturanderson
01-02-2011, 09:24 PM
And how exactly is it so much better now? Shanahan did a **** job of building this defense over the past several years of his tenure here (specifically the front seven) but McDaniels seemed very dedicated to carrying on that tradition. One of the reasons his teams sucked so badly and why he's currently out of a job.

He's saying that the meme that McDaniels depleted our team of talent is a joke because we had no talent when he got here and he didn't improve, nor worsen that talent level. He wasn't claiming that we are significantly better than when Shanahan left, just not significantly worse.

strafen
01-02-2011, 09:26 PM
Oh really? Most people had never even heard of Luck before this season. All of a sudden he's the best QB in the last 10 years? Not buying it.

Bradford was a better prospect.I understand if you didn't like Luck, but to say Bradford was a better prospect is going a bit too far...

tsiguy96
01-02-2011, 09:26 PM
And how exactly is it so much better now? Shanahan did a **** job of building this defense over the past several years of his tenure here (specifically the front seven) but McDaniels seemed very dedicated to carrying on that tradition. One of the reasons his teams sucked so badly and why he's currently out of a job.

read following post. people say mcd destroyed this team and got rid of all the talent. he didnt. did he fix it all? no, but he definitely didnt make this team significantly worse in the talent department. just a story made up by the media because its easy to harp on without actually thinking.

Clockwork Orange
01-02-2011, 09:26 PM
He's saying that the meme that McDaniels depleted our team of talent is a joke because we had no talent when he got here and he didn't improve, nor worsen that talent level. He wasn't claiming that we are significantly better than when Shanahan left, just not significantly worse.

I believe that meme was more aimed at the offensive side of the ball, seeing as our defense was a cruel joke in Shanahan's last year too.

epicSocialism4tw
01-02-2011, 09:28 PM
Anyone that follows the draft closely heard of Luck last year. He was on the radar as probably the best QB propect going forward.

You don't know what you're talking about, but if you think that a guy surrounded by elite talent, playing against mostly crap defenses, in a system made to put up ridiculous stats and that injured, and had surgery, on his throwing shoulder instead of playing his last year in college is a better prospect than Luck...well, at least some OU homers will agree with you. Nobody else will though.

Um...not really.

Bradford's Pro Day Leaves Crowd in Awe - Best Pro Day Since Aikman
http://blogs.nfl.com/2010/03/29/bradfords-pro-day-workout-leaves-crowd-in-awe/

Bradford Awes Observers
http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/29/bradford-awes-observers-in-pro-day-workout/

Bradford Pro Day Nearly Perfect
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/36084032/sports/player_news

...and on and on and....

peacepipe
01-02-2011, 09:28 PM
Oh really? Most people had never even heard of Luck before this season. All of a sudden he's the best QB in the last 10 years? Not buying it.

Bradford was a better prospect.With the exception that about every team thought he might be injury prone.

Clockwork Orange
01-02-2011, 09:28 PM
read following post. people say mcd destroyed this team and got rid of all the talent. he didnt. did he fix it all? no, but he definitely didnt make this team significantly worse in the talent department. just a story made up by the media because its easy to harp on without actually thinking.

No, he just made the team significantly worse in the standings. You can sit here and go on about talent all day, but if you don't win, it doesn't matter if you've assembled an all star team.

tsiguy96
01-02-2011, 09:29 PM
I believe that meme was more aimed at the offensive side of the ball, seeing as our defense was a cruel joke in Shanahan's last year too.

even the offense, im talking about the entire teams collective talent. we have better WR, pretty good RB now, oline is similar to shannys but with young C and LG, TEs suck. QB is obviously a huge debate for about 95% of the other threads on this forum, but cutler for a lot of stuff plus tebow and whatever orton fetches us this offseason isnt a bad trade at all.

Jekyll15Hyde
01-02-2011, 09:29 PM
If I had to share my dream scenario, here it is (keep in mind, this can change as the offseason progresses):

Coach: Harbaugh
OC: Whoever Harbaugh sees fit
DC: Whoever Harbaugh sees fit

QB: Tebow
RB: Moreno, let all others go, sign a Bruiser (i.e. Michael Bush) and either a low round pick or an all purpose vet.
WR: Leave as is, resign Lloyd
OL: Sign RT, let Harris go.
DL: Both 2nd rounders.
LB: Some good free agents, if we get Harbaugh, we keep 3-4, sign Rudd or another MLB to complement DJ.
CB: Resign Champ, draft Peterson (play at FS if we keep Goodie and Cox doesn't go to jail, takes over for Goodie or Champ otherwise), let the young S's and CB's step up.

I'd say if we can follow this, we can easily put up a nice 9-7 season barring injuries. If we draft Luck, we'd probably be looking at 6-10. 2nd year we make playoffs.

Again, just my current pipe dream.


Continuing this. I see your Tebow theory as plausible. I think they contend for division for 3-4yrs with 9-7/10-6 record. But we wont do anything past WC round. I dont see Tebow's style lasting effectively for much more than 5yr. He will probably rush for nearly 1000yds for at least 1 of those years. But the workload will prematurely end his career. As it was said best earlier, 'is that the NFL we are going to have?'

With Luck, I see more ability over the long term. I mean like 10yr+ LT. And by the 3-4yr, Luck would have the team at same ability but greater big game play against the Bradys, Mannings, and Rothlesiberger. Not completely sold he could beat anyone the 3 but still a better place to be. I have seen enough standford games to know that when they are winning in the PAC10, something isnt the norm. I suspect nearly all you haven't actually seen him play. Watch the film. It is pretty easy to see.

And yes the D needs basically 9 new starters and will be 10 b/c they wont resign Champ. but I am not sold on any OL other then Clady and maybe Kuper. Need TE, FB and WR if Thomas continues to be injured often. That is a lot of holes in the boat at as many as 64% of the starters need replacing. Not much diff than 68%. If you could get them to only take only Tebow plus #2 and nothing else, then you are only adding one more hole to boat aint going anywhere for a few years. We need talent by the truckloads and have few draft picks...
*edit. I forgot RB so those numbers are wrong. But whatever, the point remains.

And what can we get for DJ? I would take a 2nd or 3rd for him in heartbeat. Not sure if that is a realistic comp or not. Somebody could be a sucker... Wonder if Shanny would trade for him.

tsiguy96
01-02-2011, 09:30 PM
No, he just made the team significantly worse in the standings. You can sit here and go on about talent all day, but if you don't win, it doesn't matter if you've assembled an all star team.

now you are ducking the argument, falling back on the records argument. im talking about the collective talent level of this team, as were you, until you realized taht you are wrong, and changed the argument to start talking about the record of the team.

epicSocialism4tw
01-02-2011, 09:30 PM
With the exception that about every team thought he might be injury prone.

Not really.

After he had his shoulder checked out by NFL doctors, all systems were go.

Clockwork Orange
01-02-2011, 09:33 PM
now you are ducking the argument, falling back on the records argument. im talking about the collective talent level of this team, as were you, until you realized taht you are wrong, and changed the argument to start talking about the record of the team.

Oh please, you're such a ****ing tool. You want so badly to at least claim to be partially right about your failed little hero that you stoop to "HE IMPROVED TEH TALENTZ!!!!11!!1!!" to try and feel better about his abject failure as a head coach.

His teams sucked and yes, the W/L record reflects that. If it makes you feel better when you're putting on your Josh McDaniels footie pajamas to scream to anyone who'll listen that he somehow improved the talent on this team while simultaneously running the team into the toilet, you go right ahead and run with it. I'll be over here in reality where the Broncos are going to be picking the highest in the draft in their franchise history thanks to your idol's ineptitude.

misturanderson
01-02-2011, 09:34 PM
Not really.

After he had his shoulder checked out by NFL doctors, all systems were go.

Like I said. An OU homer will agree that Bradford was a better prospect, but nobody else will.

epicSocialism4tw
01-02-2011, 09:37 PM
Like I said. An OU homer will agree that Bradford was a better prospect, but nobody else will.

Except for all of those scouts who were "in awe" at the links I provided.

Tombstone RJ
01-02-2011, 09:42 PM
Anyone that follows the draft closely heard of Luck last year. He was on the radar as probably the best QB propect going forward along with Mallet (and some idiots that followed Kiper's ideas thought that Locker would be good despite crap stats).

You don't know what you're talking about, but if you think that a guy surrounded by elite talent, playing against mostly crap defenses, in a system made to put up ridiculous stats and that injured, and had surgery, on his throwing shoulder instead of playing his last year in college is a better prospect than Luck...well, at least some OU homers will agree with you. Nobody else will though.

I'm calling BS on this. If you can provide a link or some kind of proof to show that Luck, as a sophomore, was on the NFL draft radar I will humbly apologize. Otherwise, not buying it.

Bradford, on the other hand, was on the radar NFL draft radar screen for two full years. Bradfords only liability was his shoulder but that is nothing he could control. Bradford was the better prospect, is the better prospect and has proven to be worthy number 1 pick.

misturanderson
01-02-2011, 09:47 PM
Except for all of those scouts who were "in awe" at the links I provided.

The list of people that have "wowed" scouts at their pro-days, throwing to open receivers in shorts with no defensive pressure, is long and full of people that weren't even as good of prospects as Bradford. If that is your "convincing" argument you'll need to try a hell of a lot harder.

The only thing that pro day did was prove that Bradford could actually throw a football after his surgery (since he wouldn't work out for scouts before then). It was enough to convince a team that had absolutely nothing at QB who also happened to have the #1 overall pick that he was worth the risk. Good for Bradford and it seems to have worked out well for the rams (assuming he is able to stay healthy and improve significantly on a good rookie campaign), doesn't prove a things about his being a better prspect than Luck.