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Rohirrim
01-02-2011, 11:43 AM
... wouldn't they want him to play safety? After seeing what Ed Reed and Polamalu are doing on the field today, I think that makes the most sense. A guy with Peterson's athleticism and skills should be able to play all over the field. Put him just man on man and the QB just throws to somebody else. Put him at safety and he can be killing all over the place.

TheReverend
01-02-2011, 11:48 AM
No

Rohirrim
01-02-2011, 11:52 AM
No

I always look forward to your incisive and well thought out input. :spit:

GoBroncos84
01-02-2011, 12:07 PM
I think you would put him at cornerback first. I am still hoping we keep Champ. If teams try to avoid Peterson, they are throwing at Bailey. If they try to avoid Bailey they are throwing at Peterson. Sounds win-win. If we do keep Champ, there is also the plan to move him to safety in a few years. The only reason to put Peterson at safety is if he can't beat out the top 2 corners on the team but would beat out one of the starting safeties.

TheReverend
01-02-2011, 12:07 PM
I always look forward to your incisive and well thought out input. :spit:

That's fine. I certainly don't look forward to your poorly thought out threads.

A corner with his talent or a Champ Bailey or Revis' impact certainly IS being felt all across the field. It's not so "he can throw to someone else".

First of all, we play a good dosing of zones which puts even more responsibility on corners to affect the play, considering they have similar/more difficult zone responsibilities and more difficult run/pass reads and contain responsibility.

Secondly, even if you're not seeing them "make the play" their presence and impact commonly is causing it. Having to game plan against your own top receiver and KNOWING the defenders now have the freedom to double and bracket your #2 option and/or blitz an extra defender to cause matchup problems with your blocking schemes are big deals.

But... sure... let's toss him to safety because you shallowly see Polamalu and Reed make some highlight plays.

Rohirrim
01-02-2011, 12:13 PM
That's fine. I certainly don't look forward to your poorly thought out threads.

A corner with his talent or a Champ Bailey or Revis' impact certainly IS being felt all across the field. It's not so "he can throw to someone else".

First of all, we play a good dosing of zones which puts even more responsibility on corners to affect the play, considering they have similar/more difficult zone responsibilities and more difficult run/pass reads and contain responsibility.

Secondly, even if you're not seeing them "make the play" their presence and impact commonly is causing it. Having to game plan against your own top receiver and KNOWING the defenders now have the freedom to double and bracket your #2 option and/or blitz an extra defender to cause matchup problems with your blocking schemes are big deals.

But... sure... let's toss him to safety because you shallowly see Polamalu and Reed make some highlight plays.

No, I see Reed and Polamalu making game changing plays - INTs that turn games around - plays that win games. How many games has Champ turned around this year? How many games has any CB turned around or won on a single play this year? Reed and Troy do it almost every game they play. Peterson has that kind of talent. You could put him in the box, have him rush, go deep, play man - and the offense would never know where he's going to line up.

You made more sense when you were ****ing inflatable toys.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 12:15 PM
I would probably want him to play both as situations demanded. Versatility is never bad.

bpc
01-02-2011, 12:17 PM
Safeties have a short shelf life while ELITE CB's can go on and on. You take a guy like Peterson and you let him play CB and find somebody else to fill the lane.

Vegas_Bronco
01-02-2011, 12:20 PM
Cox will be much better also with a season of he'll under his belt. This team is in need of a new perspective and some better coaching (emphasizing the defensive side of the ball).

bpc
01-02-2011, 12:22 PM
Cox is going to jail. Might as well count that dude out.

Dedhed
01-02-2011, 12:28 PM
... wouldn't they want him to play safety? After seeing what Ed Reed and Polamalu are doing on the field today, I think that makes the most sense. A guy with Peterson's athleticism and skills should be able to play all over the field. Put him just man on man and the QB just throws to somebody else. Put him at safety and he can be killing all over the place.

I think they would find out where his talents have the greatest impact, and play him there.

It's possible that would be at safety. He certainly has the physical tools to be a Polomalu/Reed type, but there's no guarantee that his talent would translate as well to the Safety position.

Dagmar
01-02-2011, 12:30 PM
Cox is going to jail. Might as well count that dude out.

There has been a lack of news or movement in that case, any idea what is happening?

bpc
01-02-2011, 12:32 PM
No clue, just know his ass is going to get grilled here pretty soon. I dont' get some of these athletes now a'days.

Vegas_Bronco
01-02-2011, 12:41 PM
McDaniels' policy/system to target players with very high character. Lendale White -4 game suspension/drug
Robert Ayers -aggravated assault
Knowshon Moreno -Faced charges for punching a UGA student in the face
Jamal Williams -DUI
Ronald Fields -Arrested for unlawfully carrying a loaded gun
Correll Buckhalter -Linked to a major drug dealer in Philadelphia
Richard Quinn -Charged with harassment and domestic violence charges
Jabar Gaffney -Charged with carry a loaded weapon

Perrish Cox -Sexual Assault....however this case has been sealed and the 'victims' name is protected by the court with the court date tbd after cox is finished with his obligations with the Broncso this season. Siting the above cases, highest probability would be that he plays again next season for denver after serving a suspension if found guilty.

Drek
01-02-2011, 12:45 PM
... wouldn't they want him to play safety? After seeing what Ed Reed and Polamalu are doing on the field today, I think that makes the most sense. A guy with Peterson's athleticism and skills should be able to play all over the field. Put him just man on man and the QB just throws to somebody else. Put him at safety and he can be killing all over the place.

No.

You see Polamalu or Reed get a pick and take it back to the house. Great. That impacts one game. The next week they might not do anything. How much of an impact did Polamalu's over pursing ass have in the Super Bowl against Arizona? Didn't see anything there but Fitzgerald doing work on Pittsburgh's mediocre corners, even when they were given Polamalu as safety help.

A guy like Champ, Revis, Deon Sanders, etc. is a 16 game changer. He alters the opposition's game plans and he has a cascading effect throughout your D. Suddenly you have one corner who doesn't need safety help over the top. Who can cover a zone significantly larger than any other corner and therefore not in need of as much nickel/dime CB help. The list goes on.

An elite corner completely alters the complexion of how your team plays defense week to week and how the opposition tries to attack you week to week. With the style of offenses ran in the NFL today (and how the officials call games) most defenses find themselves in a situation where they're being dictated to by the opposition. Shut down CBs are one of few ways a single player can take some of that power back for you.

I was considering the benefits of having him split time at CB and S a few weeks ago, but when you consider Goodman's precipitous downhill slide there really isn't any reason for that now either.

ICON
01-02-2011, 12:49 PM
... wouldn't they want him to play safety? After seeing what Ed Reed and Polamalu are doing on the field today, I think that makes the most sense. A guy with Peterson's athleticism and skills should be able to play all over the field. Put him just man on man and the QB just throws to somebody else. Put him at safety and he can be killing all over the place.

Why? You'd be taking him from his strongest position in order to fill a weakness, that's something you just don't do.

Given that combined with his absurd range, athleticism and ballhawking ability he would probably be able to flourish right off the bat at either strong or free safety, though at SS he could utilize his size and ability to come up into the box and help out in run support.

But cornerback is a much more valuable position, and if he can correct his few issues he's going to be a major problem for NFL receivers.

Requiem
01-02-2011, 12:50 PM
Nah. Keep him at CB, for the reasons bpc and Drek mentioned.

The real question is: Do you play him in the return game? :)

gtown
01-02-2011, 12:55 PM
With multi-WR sets common in the league, as well as a slew of great TEs in the AFC, a CB like Peterson can be avoided. At safety, we would be taking advantage of his versatility.

elsid13
01-02-2011, 12:57 PM
Nah. Keep him at CB, for the reasons bpc and Drek mentioned.

The real question is: Do you play him in the return game? :)

Hell no. (And Bey-Bey shouldn't be back there either)

Rohirrim
01-02-2011, 01:00 PM
No.

You see Polamalu or Reed get a pick and take it back to the house. Great. That impacts one game. The next week they might not do anything. How much of an impact did Polamalu's over pursing ass have in the Super Bowl against Arizona? Didn't see anything there but Fitzgerald doing work on Pittsburgh's mediocre corners, even when they were given Polamalu as safety help.

A guy like Champ, Revis, Deon Sanders, etc. is a 16 game changer. He alters the opposition's game plans and he has a cascading effect throughout your D. Suddenly you have one corner who doesn't need safety help over the top. Who can cover a zone significantly larger than any other corner and therefore not in need of as much nickel/dime CB help. The list goes on.

An elite corner completely alters the complexion of how your team plays defense week to week and how the opposition tries to attack you week to week. With the style of offenses ran in the NFL today (and how the officials call games) most defenses find themselves in a situation where they're being dictated to by the opposition. Shut down CBs are one of few ways a single player can take some of that power back for you.

I was considering the benefits of having him split time at CB and S a few weeks ago, but when you consider Goodman's precipitous downhill slide there really isn't any reason for that now either.

It depends on the pass rush. With the pass rush we have, we probably have no option - he would have to play CB. Peterson is so large and fast that it seems to me that it would be limiting his impact to simply put him on one receiver for a game. Sure, he shuts down one guy, but if we had an effective pass rush, you could put him all over the place on the field. That would drive OCs and QBs crazy.

Drek
01-02-2011, 01:37 PM
It depends on the pass rush. With the pass rush we have, we probably have no option - he would have to play CB. Peterson is so large and fast that it seems to me that it would be limiting his impact to simply put him on one receiver for a game. Sure, he shuts down one guy, but if we had an effective pass rush, you could put him all over the place on the field. That would drive OCs and QBs crazy.

No, it would let them have their #1 WR back periodically throughout the game.

What do you think would drive the Chiefs more crazy, having Dwayne Bowe taken completely out of the game and having to throw to guys like Copper, or Cassel having to read where Peterson is at but having Bowe coming open periodically throughout the game against whomever may be covering him?

I know if we were given that same option I'd want to see Lloyd get the second tier CB as often as possible. I think Tebow has the football skills to recognize that his #1 WR is being covered by an average CB, not a shut down monster.

Peterson's size and speed come into play in the fact that he's one of the few CB prospects athletic enough to hang with the Calvin Johnsons of the world. WRs have gotten bigger and faster over the last several years and CB prospects have not kept pace. Peterson is that rare exception. On top of that he's a crusher in run support. This team has seen the MASSIVE benefits of Champ's run support skills. Imagine what he'd do if he was 20 pounds heavier and those hits didn't take such a tole on him.

footstepsfrom#27
01-02-2011, 01:44 PM
... wouldn't they want him to play safety? After seeing what Ed Reed and Polamalu are doing on the field today, I think that makes the most sense. A guy with Peterson's athleticism and skills should be able to play all over the field. Put him just man on man and the QB just throws to somebody else. Put him at safety and he can be killing all over the place.
Taking the oppositions top receiver out of the game is pretty sweet, don't you think? But you're point is valid...he'd be an incredible safety for sure. The question is, would you rather have a 222 pound guy who can shut down the other team's best WR and stuff the run also or a safety who can range the entire field...a nice dilemna for sure.

If Champ would stay around, we'd have two lockdown CB's which helps the pass rush significantly.

enjolras
01-02-2011, 05:18 PM
Taking the oppositions top receiver out of the game is pretty sweet, don't you think? But you're point is valid...he'd be an incredible safety for sure. The question is, would you rather have a 222 pound guy who can shut down the other team's best WR and stuff the run also or a safety who can range the entire field...a nice dilemna for sure.

If Champ would stay around, we'd have two lockdown CB's which helps the pass rush significantly.

A corner is a luxury, a safety is a necessity.

It seems to me that strong defenses are always strong down the middle. You need good tackles, good inside linebackers, and good safeties. Corners are the wide receiver of the defense. They make flashy plays and they get a lot of buzz. Safety is were it's at, and it's the weakest position on our team. We were at our best with Atwater running around back there.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 05:20 PM
If The Broncos Were To Draft Peterson...


...he would be trying to chase around San Diego's receivers for 8 seconds just like our less esteemed DBs today were.

KipCorrington25
01-02-2011, 05:25 PM
Cox is going to jail. Might as well count that dude out.

That's what she said...

his accuser at least.

Jetmeck
01-02-2011, 05:29 PM
No clue, just know his ass is going to get grilled here pretty soon. I dont' get some of these athletes now a'days.

In other words you know nothing like the rest of us yet you have him guilty already.................

jsco70
01-02-2011, 05:32 PM
A corner is a luxury, a safety is a necessity.

It seems to me that strong defenses are always strong down the middle. You need good tackles, good inside linebackers, and good safeties. Corners are the wide receiver of the defense. They make flashy plays and they get a lot of buzz. Safety is were it's at, and it's the weakest position on our team. We were at our best with Atwater running around back there.

I don't know whether Peterson could play safety or not. What I do know is that Denver has been in need of a safety for a numbers of years. I recognize what Dawkins has done, but this has been a need since before Lynch left. Denver has passed on a quite a few good ones over the past few years. I see these guys like Huff, Nelson, Earl Thomas making plays every Sunday. Denver MUST upgrade this position. There's a huge hole that Hill, Bruton, McBath, and Jones simply cannot fill.

chanesaw
01-02-2011, 05:33 PM
Peterson will be the best CB in the league. We shouldn't take anybody else with our #2 pick.

Use our 3 2nd rounders (one from trading Orton) to sure up the D.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 05:34 PM
Peterson will be the best CB in the league. We shouldn't take anybody else with our #2 pick.

Use our 3 2nd rounders (one from trading Orton) to sure up the D.

And he'll be overpaid because of no pass rush.

Bad idea.

Jetmeck
01-02-2011, 05:35 PM
Peterson will be the best CB in the league. We shouldn't take anybody else with our #2 pick.

Use our 3 2nd rounders (one from trading Orton) to sure up the D.


Seriously is this guy really that good ?

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 05:36 PM
Seriously is this guy really that good ?

Even if he is, it won't matter without a pass rush.

elsid13
01-02-2011, 05:36 PM
Seriously is this guy really that good ?

He is. He reminds me a lot of Sean Taylor, able to play CB or Safety and be All-Pro at either.

Jetmeck
01-02-2011, 05:37 PM
Even if he is, it won't matter without a pass rush.

Yes I agrre but unless there is an outstanding DL guy there at 2 then we should not pass on this guy if he is as good as advertised ?

Bigdawg26
01-02-2011, 05:38 PM
Pretty sure Doom will give some pass rush and we can grab a good pass rusher in the second along with a NT and ILB (who can be a vocal leader). Peterson is a special player and can help with match ups if champ comes back. He can learn how to be a pro and match up against a gates and other big receivers.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 05:39 PM
Yes I agrre but unless there is an outstanding DL guy there at 2 then we should not pass on this guy if he is as good as advertised ?

There are 2 defensive linemen that are considered to be top 10 or even top 5.

footstepsfrom#27
01-02-2011, 05:40 PM
... wouldn't they want him to play safety? After seeing what Ed Reed and Polamalu are doing on the field today, I think that makes the most sense. A guy with Peterson's athleticism and skills should be able to play all over the field. Put him just man on man and the QB just throws to somebody else. Put him at safety and he can be killing all over the place.
Why not play him at both spots?

Have you seen the stats on Pittsburgh's defense with and without Troy P? Despite their great front 7, the dropoff withou TP is huge. They are not the same team without that guy. Here's the thing; this guy can play both positions. You could literally move him to safety if you wanted to cover Gates, or keep him in to take on Vincent Jackson as a press corner. He's big and fast enough with the reflexes that whoever gets him can play him in both spots if they wish.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 05:41 PM
Pretty sure Doom will give some pass rush and we can grab a good pass rusher in the second along with a NT and ILB (who can be a vocal leader). Peterson is a special player and can help with match ups if champ comes back. He can learn how to be a pro and match up against a gates and other big receivers.

Who will be there in the 2nd round that will be as good as what is there in the top 10?

Jetmeck
01-02-2011, 05:41 PM
decisions............decisions

RhymesayersDU
01-02-2011, 05:41 PM
And he'll be overpaid because of no pass rush.

Bad idea.

Exactly. Drafting a CB seems like a bad idea to me. We need a pass rusher that can get in. QBs face and force a bad throw. We need to get pressure without blitzing everybody.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 05:46 PM
Why not play him at both spots?

Have you seen the stats on Pittsburgh's defense with and without Troy P? Despite their great front 7, the dropoff withou TP is huge. They are not the same team without that guy. Here's the thing; this guy can play both positions. You could literally move him to safety if you wanted to cover Gates, or keep him in to take on Vincent Jackson as a press corner. He's big and fast enough with the reflexes that whoever gets him can play him in both spots if they wish.

Pittsburgh also already has two legitimate edge rushers and a good nose tackle.

elsid13
01-02-2011, 05:46 PM
Who will be there in the 2nd round that will be as good as what is there in the top 10?

It depends if we are running a 4-3 or 3/4. If Denver sticks with 3/4 which I hope, there are number DE/NT that could come in a hold the POA for Doom and Ayers. Example include Crick (NEB), Taylor (Baylor-NT), Christian Ballard, (DE-IOWA), etc

footstepsfrom#27
01-02-2011, 05:47 PM
If The Broncos Were To Draft Peterson...


...he would be trying to chase around San Diego's receivers for 8 seconds just like our less esteemed DBs today were.
He would blanket Vincent Jackson. When did Rivers have 8 seconds BTW? I seem to remember seeing him on his ass a few times or running for his life as well. There was a pass rush today for a change.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 05:48 PM
It depends if we are running a 4-3 or 3/4. If Denver sticks with 3/4 which I hope, there are number DE/NT that could come in a hold the POA for Doom and Ayers. Example include Crick (NEB), Taylor (Baylor-NT), Christian Ballard, (DE-IOWA), etc

No it doesnt. On passing downs everyone is one gapping. Denver's big problem today was getting off the field on 3rd downs. And with the possible exception of early last year, it has been a huge problem over the past 3 years.

footstepsfrom#27
01-02-2011, 05:49 PM
Pittsburgh also already has two legitimate edge rushers and a good nose tackle.
My point is, their defense is dramatically better when TP is on the field. Without him in there, they are not the same defence by a long shot.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 05:50 PM
He would blanket Vincent Jackson. When did Rivers have 8 seconds BTW? I seem to remember seeing him on his ass a few times or running for his life as well. There was a pass rush today for a change.

You must be joking. Its been like a shooting gallery for Rivers the past 3 years against us (with the exception of a multiple sack game from Doom in the first game last year) and that has been with Champ on the field.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 05:53 PM
My point is, their defense is dramatically better when TP is on the field. Without him in there, they are not the same defence by a long shot.

I know what your point was. But again, Pittsburgh has been equipped with the personnel up front to put Polamalu in positions to make plays. They stop the run and can generate a pass rush. Truthfully, asied from Polamalu, their DBs are awful but they still have a great defense because of how good their front seven is.

footstepsfrom#27
01-02-2011, 05:55 PM
Peterson will be the best CB in the league. We shouldn't take anybody else with our #2 pick.

Use our 3 2nd rounders (one from trading Orton) to sure up the D.
Let's say we only get a 3rd for Orton to be on the safe side. We could still add it to one of our #2's to make a move up into the first round and possibly still get a good D-line guy or another front 7 player if someone we like slips. In fact we could moving up like that would allow us to probably draft 3 D-line guys within the first 64 picks, not to mention we have our own 3rd rounder which is almost a 2nd rounder. We're in position to draft D-line accross the board after Peterson if we want to.

footstepsfrom#27
01-02-2011, 05:57 PM
I know what your point was. But again, Pittsburgh has been equipped with the personnel up front to put Polamalu in positions to make plays. They stop the run and can generate a pass rush. Truthfully, asied from Polamalu, their DBs are awful but they still have a great defense because of how good their front seven is.
Yet if we take TP off that defense, it's not that great anymore.

footstepsfrom#27
01-02-2011, 05:57 PM
You must be joking. Its been like a shooting gallery for Rivers the past 3 years against us (with the exception of a multiple sack game from Doom in the first game last year) and that has been with Champ on the field.
I was talking about today.

Jesterhole
01-02-2011, 05:59 PM
If we drafted him, our best back field would be him and Goodman at corner, with Dawkins and Bailey as safety. If we could get any kind of front seven together, that would be fairly formidable.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 05:59 PM
Yet if we take TP off that defense, it's not that great anymore.

And if all you had was Polamalu, it would be garbage. Its still a good defense because of the front 7 even with out him. It takes a good front 7 for Polamalu to have that kind of an impact though.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 06:01 PM
I was talking about today.

Yeah, and there were several times today when Rivers had all day to throw. He either had all day to throw or the WRs were ridiculously wide open that it was like a shooting gallery.

broncosteven
01-02-2011, 06:07 PM
I didn't have time to read through this whole thread but I would rather see them try to resign Champ and draft the best DL in the draft.

I don't know if there is a guy like Suh out there this year but we have neglected the DL for so long and all have seen that even the Best CB in the game can't cover forever if the DL or our bust 1st round LB can't get to the QB.

Rohirrim
01-02-2011, 06:08 PM
A corner is a luxury, a safety is a necessity.

It seems to me that strong defenses are always strong down the middle. You need good tackles, good inside linebackers, and good safeties. Corners are the wide receiver of the defense. They make flashy plays and they get a lot of buzz. Safety is were it's at, and it's the weakest position on our team. We were at our best with Atwater running around back there.

That's what I'm thinking. The Broncos were once famous for kick ass safeties - Dennis Smith, Steve Atwater. Peterson is 6'1" and 222. Seems to me he could be a monster in the middle.

Polster60
01-02-2011, 06:20 PM
Give me Patrick Peterson everyday of the week. He is a pure playmaker, a game changer. Everyone that references the steelers defense as being a model to replicate needs to understand that its not just players, but also coaching and fundamentals. That defensive unit has been together for awhile with one of the best defensive coordinators in the league. They haven't placed a large emphasis on d line in the draft like many suggest. They have two first round draft picks playing for them on the front three; Casey Hampton from 2001 and Ziggy Hood from 2009. They instead look to the positions that create immediate impact- LB and DB. Look at their drafts and you will see this.

Our defense lacks playmakers right now. the only playmaker that I consider to be on that defense is Champ and he might be gone next season. Tell me who outside of Champ and an aging Dawkins really is capable of altering a game by making one play??? People keep screaming for pressure, and while i definitely don't disagree with that sentiment, I do feel that can be achieved through better drafting as a whole round one through seven. That doesn't mean reaching for a player inside the top 5 just to justify those needs. Take the player that you can build around, then support him with good players. something that we have failed to do for Champ bailey!!

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 06:28 PM
Give me Patrick Peterson everyday of the week. He is a pure playmaker, a game changer. Everyone that references the steelers defense as being a model to replicate needs to understand that its not just players, but also coaching and fundamentals. That defensive unit has been together for awhile with one of the best defensive coordinators in the league. They haven't placed a large emphasis on d line in the draft like many suggest. They have two first round draft picks playing for them on the front three; Casey Hampton from 2001 and Ziggy Hood from 2009. They instead look to the positions that create immediate impact- LB and DB. Look at their drafts and you will see this.

Our defense lacks playmakers right now. the only playmaker that I consider to be on that defense is Champ and he might be gone next season. Tell me who outside of Champ and an aging Dawkins really is capable of altering a game by making one play??? People keep screaming for pressure, and while i definitely don't disagree with that sentiment, I do feel that can be achieved through better drafting as a whole round one through seven. That doesn't mean reaching for a player inside the top 5 just to justify those needs. Take the player that you can build around, then support him with good players. something that we have failed to do for Champ bailey!!

Bad idea. In the end, with their front 7, they get pressure and stop the run regardless of how. Unless Dick LeBeau is coming to Denver to scheme pressure, the better use of the draft pick is to draft someone who can get pressure on passing downs. Without pressure, Peterson becomes just another defensive back.

Polster60
01-02-2011, 06:37 PM
Do tell where I said I don't want a better front seven. The only player I would consider drafting on defense for the front seven in this draft is Dareus and that is because he is a natural fit for the 3-4. But do not draft for need. Champ is aging and a free agent, whose to say he will be here next year?? Is a secondary of goodman, Cox (?), Hill, and McBath good enough?? would that unit be better than this years horrible dline? I would argue no. There will be players available in the second and third rounds that can offer better value at a lower cost. paying top 2 money to a 5 tech in a 3-4 defense is crazy.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 06:39 PM
Do tell where I said I don't want a better front seven. The only player I would consider drafting on defense for the front seven in this draft is Dareus and that is because he is a natural fit for the 3-4. But do not draft for need. Champ is aging and a free agent, whose to say he will be here next year?? Is a secondary of goodman, Cox (?), Hill, and McBath good enough?? would that unit be better than this years horrible dline? I would argue no. There will be players available in the second and third rounds that can offer better value at a lower cost. paying top 2 money to a 5 tech in a 3-4 defense is crazy.

OK, but you want Peterson on the basis of what he can do on passing downs (by virtue of him being a DB), yet when it comes to passing downs, you ignore that all the defensive linemen are one gapping.

That makes no sense.

Polster60
01-02-2011, 06:40 PM
In the end, with their front 7, they get pressure and stop the run regardless of how. Unless Dick LeBeau is coming to Denver to scheme pressure, the better use of the draft pick is to draft someone who can get pressure on passing downs.

Exactly my point. We need a good defensive coordinator, consistency in the scheme. You said yourself they find ways to create pressure and stop the run, even though they have invested only 2 draft picks on their D-line in the last 10 drafts.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 06:43 PM
Exactly my point. We need a good defensive coordinator, consistency in the scheme. You said yourself they find ways to create pressure and stop the run, even though they have invested only 2 draft picks on their D-line in the last 10 drafts.

OK, but youre using Pittsburgh as an excuse to draft Peterson because of what Polamalu does for them. LeBeau is one of the best all time at generating pressure. To assume youre going to get another LeBeau and to say that serves as the basis for taking a DB, is flawed.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 06:44 PM
Give me Patrick Peterson everyday of the week. He is a pure playmaker, a game changer.


I'm not so sure about that. He hasn't made all that many plays at the college level honestly. I see him more as a shutdown corner than a playmaker. He'll take away an opponent's #1, and occasionally grab an Int. At least that's his potential. In other words a bigger, stronger, if slightly slower Champ.

Kaylore
01-02-2011, 06:45 PM
You guys realize Dumervil is coming back next year, right? We will get a great pass rusher back, and since they let put him on IR, he's going it heal right and be ready to go. That doesn't mean we don't need help on our D-line, but getting a guy like Peterson back would be a boon, especially if Cox goes to jail and Bailey walks our secondary will consist of Syd'Quan and some guys. It's more of a need than you think.

I would rather take the sure fire hall of fame pick who is the best player at his position and potentially best player in the draft, then take the gamble on a position of need.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 06:47 PM
You guys realize Dumervil is coming back next year, right? We will get a great pass rusher back, and since they let put him on IR, he's going it heal right and be ready to go. That doesn't mean we don't need help on our D-line, but getting a guy like Peterson back would be a boon, especially if Cox goes to jail and Bailey walks our secondary will consist of Syd'Quan and some guys. It's more of a need than you think.

I would rather take the sure fire hall of fame pick who is the best player at his position and potentially best player in the draft, then take the gamble on a position of need.

This is the kind of rationalization that leads to having a weak front 7. At some point, you have to bite the bullet and invest in a defensive linemen and not talk yourself out of it because there's a sexy defensive back.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 06:47 PM
You guys realize Dumervil is coming back next year, right? We will get a great pass rusher back, and since they let put him on IR, he's going it heal right and be ready to go. That doesn't mean we don't need help on our D-line, but getting a guy like Peterson back would be a boon, especially if Cox goes to jail and Bailey walks our secondary will consist of Syd'Quan and some guys. It's more of a need than you think.

I would rather take the sure fire hall of fame pick who is the best player at his position and potentially best player in the draft, then take the gamble on a position of need.

Andre Goodman is a good corner. That said if we lose Champ and Cox, you're very right. At that point I'd be all for taking Peterson at #2. He really is the best player in this draft overall in my opinion.

Polster60
01-02-2011, 06:47 PM
Our defense has not been a one gap defense though. That is not our scheme. This teams Dline is not suited to passing the rusher, it occupies lineman and tries to create pressure by bringing an extra or multiple blitzers to create pressure. Do we change that scheme? maybe so. But until then I look to what this defense needs immediately and that is a playmaker. If champ leaves we will have an even more difficult time in the secondary. Champ and peterson creates match up problems. We can draft players like Watt or cameron in the second to improve our DLine.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 06:50 PM
Our defense has not been a one gap defense though. That is not our scheme. This teams Dline is not suited to passing the rusher, it occupies lineman and tries to create pressure by bringing an extra or multiple blitzers to create pressure. Do we change that scheme? maybe so. But until then I look to what this defense needs immediately and that is a playmaker. If champ leaves we will have an even more difficult time in the secondary. Champ and peterson creates match up problems. We can draft players like Watt or cameron in the second to improve our DLine.

It has been a one gap defense on passing downs. Getting off the field on 3rd downs because of no pass rush has been a critical shortcoming of this team for 3 years now. When Nolan was in Denver he was able to scheme pressure with Doom but Doom is just one guy. Pittsburgh has at least two guys who can rush the quarterback. Denver has one and thats it.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 06:51 PM
This is the kind of rationalization that leads to having a weak front 7. At some point, you have to bite the bullet and invest in a defensive linemen and not talk yourself out of it because there's a sexy defensive back.

Very true. Barring the loss of both Cox and Bailey, I just don't see it as the best move possible. Even if we lose them, it's likely a better idea to trade down and grab some corners in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. It's a tough call though. Losing Champ and Cox leaves us open to having a Houston-bad pass D next year.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 06:53 PM
It has been a one gap defense on passing downs. Getting off the field on 3rd downs because of no pass rush has been a critical shortcoming of this team for 3 years now. When Nolan was in Denver he was able to scheme pressure with Doom but Doom is just one guy. Pittsburgh has at least two guys who can rush the quarterback. Denver has one and thats it.

This points out the problem. We have needs at virtually every defensive position. A true pass-rushing OLB is one of them. As are dominant lineman. As are safeties. As are corners if Champ and Cox are gone next year. It's such a mess that it boggles the mind.

Polster60
01-02-2011, 06:54 PM
getting a guy like Peterson back would be a boon, especially if Cox goes to jail and Bailey walks our secondary will consist of Syd'Quan and some guys

Exactly what I'm thinking. Scary thought. Think how much worse this defense is over the course of 16 games with a poor secondary and poor dline. Focus on the best player, also happens to be a position that can help immediately. find supporting players in the second and third. but most importantly get someone that can evaluate talent better. let us not waste so many picks on players that never realize their potential

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 06:54 PM
Our defense has not been a one gap defense though. That is not our scheme. This teams Dline is not suited to passing the rusher, it occupies lineman and tries to create pressure by bringing an extra or multiple blitzers to create pressure. Do we change that scheme? maybe so. But until then I look to what this defense needs immediately and that is a playmaker. If champ leaves we will have an even more difficult time in the secondary. Champ and peterson creates match up problems. We can draft players like Watt or cameron in the second to improve our DLine.

No one knows what defensive scheme we'll end up playing next year...

Kaylore
01-02-2011, 07:00 PM
This is the kind of rationalization that leads to having a weak front 7. At some point, you have to bite the bullet and invest in a defensive linemen and not talk yourself out of it because there's a sexy defensive back.

This is such a myth. The best defenses in the league don't have anyone that was taken in the top three on their D-line. There are a few first round picks, and they are probably all nose tackles taken no earlier than the teens. You don't just take a guy second overall to take him and "bite the bullet" and ignore value or what kind of player he's going to be. That's completely ludicrous. We can probably find a good D-lineman worth taking that high after the combine sorts things out, but you don't just close your eyes and say "D-linemen! only D-linemen no matter what!"

Polster60
01-02-2011, 07:00 PM
This points out the problem. We have needs at virtually every defensive position. A true pass-rushing OLB is one of them. As are dominant lineman. As are safeties. As are corners if Champ and Cox are gone next year. It's such a mess that it boggles the mind.

It definitely is a mess. But my feeling is to not draft for need, especially in the top 2. If we trade down then that is a very different story. Value wise I think Peterson may just be the best player in this draft.

But to the original topic of this thread. I feel you keep peterson at Corner. He effectively takes away half the field. Make the opposition try to decide between him and champ (if he stays around). that alone can cause coverage sacks.

Polster60
01-02-2011, 07:10 PM
We can probably find a good D-lineman worth taking that high after the combine sorts things out, but you don't just close your eyes and say "D-linemen! only D-linemen no matter what!"

Spot on. Paul toviessi(??), Jarvis moss, ashley lelie, george foster, anyone?? Drafting for need over best player available is a disaster. Everyone of those palyers were taken ahead of players (many do not need to be mentioned here) that were considered to be better players.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 07:12 PM
This is such a myth. The best defenses in the league don't have anyone that was taken in the top three on their D-line. There are a few first round picks, and they are probably all nose tackles taken no earlier than the teens. You don't just take a guy second overall to take him and "bite the bullet" and ignore value or what kind of player he's going to be. That's completely ludicrous. We can probably find a good D-lineman worth taking that high after the combine sorts things out, but you don't just close your eyes and say "D-linemen! only D-linemen no matter what!"

Its not really a myth. They get pressure regardless of how or where their guys were drafted. Thats how important getting pressure is. And you can use the "we can draft a good defensive linemen" ratonale every year. Theres a good chance you'll end up in the same place. Talk about myths. Embracing the failed model of "you can draft a good defensive lineman later" is what one could call being a slave to a myth. What you're advocating is the definition of insanity.

brncs_fan
01-02-2011, 07:13 PM
This is such a myth. The best defenses in the league don't have anyone that was taken in the top three on their D-line. There are a few first round picks, and they are probably all nose tackles taken no earlier than the teens. You don't just take a guy second overall to take him and "bite the bullet" and ignore value or what kind of player he's going to be. That's completely ludicrous. We can probably find a good D-lineman worth taking that high after the combine sorts things out, but you don't just close your eyes and say "D-linemen! only D-linemen no matter what!"

Word.

Especially when you have a defense like ours in which you might keep 6 starters. You have to address the defense as a whole. If we stay at 2 and Peterson is there, then take Peterson and go d-line later. Why do you pass on a for real corner this year to load up on d-line when you don't know who the DB selections are for next year? If your team has multiple needs like ours does, then you draft the BPA in the position of need. CB is a position of need.

brncs_fan
01-02-2011, 07:14 PM
Its not really a myth. They get pressure regardless of how or where their guys were drafted. Thats how important getting pressure is. And you can use the "we can draft a good defensive linemen" ratonale every year. Theres a good chance you'll end up in the same place. Talk about myths. Embracing the failed model of "you can draft a good defensive lineman later" is what one could call being a slave to a myth.

You seem to have contradicted yourself there.

Finger Roll
01-02-2011, 07:15 PM
Picking Fairley 2 is a reach and Bowers isn't a 3-4 guy. Peterson is the only player worth picking number 2

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 07:17 PM
You seem to have contradicted yourself there.

No. There was an ongoing discussion about Pittsburgh before. Someone pointed out Dick LeBeau can scheme pressure which alleviates the need to draft 3-4 DEs in the first. But we dont have Dick LeBeau. And one of our critical weaknesses is getting off the field on third downs. Since we dont have Dick LeBeau, the focus shifts to personnel who can get pressure independent of scheme.

mhgaffney
01-02-2011, 07:18 PM
Don't forget -- Peterson is a two-fer.

You also get a return specialist who can take it to the house.

Denver724
01-02-2011, 07:19 PM
Peterson reminds me of Lenny Walls. Tall CB's just don't make it. Watch the Patriots try to package their two first rounders and trade into the top 10 to take Prince who will turn into the next Champ. I can't believe that they took McCourtey in the late 20's last year and he made the pr-bowl.

brncs_fan
01-02-2011, 07:20 PM
No. There was an ongoing discussion about Pittsburgh before. Someone pointed out Dick LeBeau can scheme pressure which alleviates the need to draft 3-4 DEs in the first. But we dont have Dick LeBeau. And one of our critical weaknesses is getting off the field on third downs. Since we dont have Dick LeBeau, the focus shifts to personnel who can get pressure independent of scheme.

So we should put the majority of our picks this year in the d-line basket and hope they all pan out in three years when d-lineman usually begin to pan out and in the meantime not address any other need on the team especially when we have a glaring need at CB?

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 07:21 PM
Don't forget -- Peterson is a two-fer.

You also get a return specialist who can take it to the house.

Not a chance you put the #2 overall pick in on returns. Unless you just like playing Russian Roulette.

BroncoSojia
01-02-2011, 07:21 PM
Peterson reminds me of Lenny Walls. Tall CB's just don't make it. Watch the Patriots try to package their two first rounders and trade into the top 10 to take Prince who will turn into the next Champ. I can't believe that they took McCourtey in the late 20's last year and he made the pr-bowl.

How tall is Nnamdi?

peacepipe
01-02-2011, 07:22 PM
Peterson reminds me of Lenny Walls. Tall CB's just don't make it. Watch the Patriots try to package their two first rounders and trade into the top 10 to take Prince who will turn into the next Champ. I can't believe that they took McCourtey in the late 20's last year and he made the pr-bowl.

the difference being Lenny walls couldn't out run a mule. walls ran the 40 in 4.7 as opposed to the 4.37 peterson runs it. and also went against better talent.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 07:23 PM
So we should put the majority of our picks this year in the d-line basket and hope they all pan out in three years when d-lineman usually begin to pan out and in the meantime not address any other need on the team especially when we have a glaring need at CB?

Not ignore but its all about stopping the run and getting pressure with your front seven. You can fill in with free agent DBs but you need to invest in your defensive line.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 07:23 PM
Peterson reminds me of Lenny Walls. Tall CB's just don't make it. Watch the Patriots try to package their two first rounders and trade into the top 10 to take Prince who will turn into the next Champ. I can't believe that they took McCourtey in the late 20's last year and he made the pr-bowl.

Peterson reminds you of Lenny Walls? Hilarious!

Hercules Rockefeller
01-02-2011, 07:23 PM
Peterson reminds me of Lenny Walls. Tall CB's just don't make it. Watch the Patriots try to package their two first rounders and trade into the top 10 to take Prince who will turn into the next Champ. I can't believe that they took McCourtey in the late 20's last year and he made the pr-bowl.

Peterson isn't as tall and outweighs Walls by probably 30 lbs.

Fail.

Polster60
01-02-2011, 07:23 PM
Lenny was 6'4 with stiff hips. Peterson is a fluid athlete.

brncs_fan
01-02-2011, 07:25 PM
Not ignore but its all about stopping the run and getting pressure with your front seven. You can fill in with free agent DBs but you need to invest in your defensive line.

Ok. So who are some free agent DBs that we can bring in then?

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 07:29 PM
Ok. So who are some free agent DBs that we can bring in then?

My internet is slow tonight. Im waiting for the free agent list to load.

Eidt-- http://www.kffl.com/static/nfl/features/freeagents/fa.php?option=DB&y=2011

Take your pick. I would go with someone solid but nothing that breaks the bank. Maybe Eric Wright.

Smelvin
01-02-2011, 07:29 PM
What we want is for Cam Newton to look like a world beater in the Nat'l Champ game and thus create a bidding war for the #2 pick (assuming Carolina stays at #1 and picks Luck).

Behind us, yet still in the top 7, are a bunch of QB hungry teams (AZ, Cinci, SF) and potentially even Buffalo. With that said, assuming Luck and Newton declare, they'll need to trade into #2 to guarantee a shot at Newton.

I'm not sure Newton's stock will rise that high, but it's certainly possible. And a lights out performance in the title game will go a long way.

If we can trade down yet still stay in the top 5-7...now that looks pretty attractive to me. But it really depends on Newton IMO. Luck's value is there, if Cam can rival it, we'll be sitting pretty.

McDman
01-02-2011, 07:30 PM
What is the word on the Prince kid out of Nebraska? I've been seeing him rated right behind Peterson.

gunns
01-02-2011, 07:32 PM
... wouldn't they want him to play safety? After seeing what Ed Reed and Polamalu are doing on the field today, I think that makes the most sense. A guy with Peterson's athleticism and skills should be able to play all over the field. Put him just man on man and the QB just throws to somebody else. Put him at safety and he can be killing all over the place.

I think safety is a need as much as the DL and has been forever. I watch the teams with great safeties and they help that defense dominate. When people were proposing Peterson I wondered if he could play safety but I don't know if drafting a guy who's primary position is CB to do another job. I'd prefer to get a guy who is that dominant at the safety position.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 07:35 PM
Ok. So who are some free agent DBs that we can bring in then?

1. Brent Grimes
2. Carlos Rodgers
3. Johnathan Joseph
4. Antonio Cromartie
5. Ike Taylor
6. Richard Marshall

To name a few...

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 07:37 PM
I think safety is a need as much as the DL and has been forever. I watch the teams with great safeties and they help that defense dominate. When people were proposing Peterson I wondered if he could play safety but I don't know if drafting a guy who's primary position is CB to do another job. I'd prefer to get a guy who is that dominant at the safety position.

Unfortunately this is a very weak draft for safeties. Peterson could probably play FS, but the question is whether that's the best use of his skills. An outstanding man-coverage corner playing deep zones? Hmm...he could become a great ballhawk at the position, but I wonder...

He would eat TEs alive now that I think of it. That wouldn't be fair at all...

brncs_fan
01-02-2011, 07:38 PM
My internet is slow tonight. Im waiting for the free agent list to load.

Eidt-- http://www.kffl.com/static/nfl/features/freeagents/fa.php?option=DB&y=2011

Take your pick. I would go with someone solid but nothing that breaks the bank. Maybe Eric Wright.

Eric Wright is coming off a season ending knee injury. Pass.

Still not buying it. There isn't anyone on that list (except for Champ of course) that I would want more than Peterson.

footstepsfrom#27
01-02-2011, 07:42 PM
Give me Patrick Peterson everyday of the week. He is a pure playmaker, a game changer. Everyone that references the steelers defense as being a model to replicate needs to understand that its not just players, but also coaching and fundamentals. That defensive unit has been together for awhile with one of the best defensive coordinators in the league. They haven't placed a large emphasis on d line in the draft like many suggest. They have two first round draft picks playing for them on the front three; Casey Hampton from 2001 and Ziggy Hood from 2009. They instead look to the positions that create immediate impact- LB and DB. Look at their drafts and you will see this.

Our defense lacks playmakers right now. the only playmaker that I consider to be on that defense is Champ and he might be gone next season. Tell me who outside of Champ and an aging Dawkins really is capable of altering a game by making one play??? People keep screaming for pressure, and while i definitely don't disagree with that sentiment, I do feel that can be achieved through better drafting as a whole round one through seven. That doesn't mean reaching for a player inside the top 5 just to justify those needs. Take the player that you can build around, then support him with good players. something that we have failed to do for Champ bailey!!
Exactly. We can still draft D-line help by either moving back into the first round or even sitting pat and drafting D-linemen in the 2nd. Peterson is not an typical corner. He's a guy you can do all kinds of things with that we can't do right now. He can cover big receivers or TE's, support the run like a linebacker or rush the QB from the edge. He can play CB or safety and he's a huge return threat.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 07:43 PM
Eric Wright is coming off a season ending knee injury. Pass.

Still not buying it. There isn't anyone on that list (except for Champ of course) that I would want more than Peterson.

If its purely a choice of who would I rather have at CB, Id also rather have Peterson over all of those guys. Unfortunately, this is a choice that does not exist in a vacuum. Choosing Peterson means sacrificing in other areas that are more important.

Like I said, its about stopping the run and pressuring the passer.

footstepsfrom#27
01-02-2011, 07:44 PM
He would eat TEs alive now that I think of it. That wouldn't be fair at all...
We could cover Antonio Gates 1 on 1...think on that one.

footstepsfrom#27
01-02-2011, 07:46 PM
If its purely a choice of who would I rather have at CB, Id also rather have Peterson over all of those guys. Unfortunately, this is a choice that does not exist in a vacuum. Choosing Peterson means sacrificing in other areas that are more important.

Like I said, its about stopping the run and pressuring the passer.
We could actually move back into the first round for a DT if we want to with those two 2nds we have some flexibility.

ICON
01-02-2011, 07:47 PM
Peterson reminds me of Lenny Walls. Tall CB's just don't make it. Watch the Patriots try to package their two first rounders and trade into the top 10 to take Prince who will turn into the next Champ. I can't believe that they took McCourtey in the late 20's last year and he made the pr-bowl.

epic fail.... Peterson was laser-timed in the 40-yard dash at 4.37 seconds.

Peterson can squat 535 pounds and bench press 335 pounds. Has register an 11-feet, 1-inch broad jump.

Peterson will be a top 5 pick . He is the best cornerback prospect in the country. The fact that Joe Haden went #7 overall only solidifies my stance on Peterson, who is a lot better prospect than Haden.

http://media.nola.com/lsu_impact/photo/patrick-petersonjpg-15b1d065b43d61f2_large.jpg

baja
01-02-2011, 07:47 PM
What if the Panthers take Peterson at #1

brncs_fan
01-02-2011, 07:49 PM
If its purely a choice of who would I rather have at CB, Id also rather have Peterson over all of those guys. Unfortunately, this is a choice that does not exist in a vacuum. Choosing Peterson means sacrificing in other areas that are more important.

Like I said, its about stopping the run and pressuring the passer.

We are not talking about a vacuum. We are talking about a football team with a bunch of needs. Ignoring all others and going for broke on one position is not going to make you better.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 07:49 PM
We could cover Antonio Gates 1 on 1...think on that one.

Cover him? He'd shut him out completely. The guy would flat-out vanish. This safety idea is starting to appeal to me...

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 07:52 PM
What if the Panthers take Peterson at #1

Is this with Luck coming out? I don't really see the need. But who knows. He's the best player in the draft if you ask me.

Rascal
01-02-2011, 07:52 PM
My offseason plan (not my money so why not):

Draft: Peterson (stick him at SS, or CB if we can find a decent SS), and then BPA on defensive side throughout.
FA: Resign Champ and put him at FS. Sign Greenway @ ILB which will make our LBs be DJ, Doom, Ayers, and Greenway. Sign Marcus Spears @ DE. Hire a damn DC.

Ray Finkle
01-02-2011, 07:52 PM
Peterson reminds me of Lenny Walls. Tall CB's just don't make it. Watch the Patriots try to package their two first rounders and trade into the top 10 to take Prince who will turn into the next Champ. I can't believe that they took McCourtey in the late 20's last year and he made the pr-bowl.

Peterson can sink his hips and turn and run. Walls could only sink his teeth into a fat burger.....

Rascal
01-02-2011, 07:54 PM
What if the Panthers take Peterson at #1

Then we collect a horde of draft picks when everybody tries to move up to take Luck. We send a thank you basket to Carolina and open the champagne.

It aint happening (although they made trade out)

maven
01-02-2011, 07:54 PM
... wouldn't they want him to play safety? After seeing what Ed Reed and Polamalu are doing on the field today, I think that makes the most sense. A guy with Peterson's athleticism and skills should be able to play all over the field. Put him just man on man and the QB just throws to somebody else. Put him at safety and he can be killing all over the place.

That's a lot of money for a safety(#2 overall). And also, CB's make more money than safety so he doesn't want to change.

maven
01-02-2011, 07:55 PM
What if the Panthers take Peterson at #1

CB #1 overall?

peacepipe
01-02-2011, 07:55 PM
Why would you convert a CB that could be the next Champ or dieon to safety? it would be like drafting walter payton and telling him; "you have the skills to be a HOF RB but we're going to go ahead and move you to fullback."

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 07:57 PM
We are not talking about a vacuum. We are talking about a football team with a bunch of needs. Ignoring all others and going for broke on one position is not going to make you better.

And you're advocating an approach that has proven to be a failure.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 07:59 PM
Why would you convert a CB that could be the next Champ or dieon to safety? it would be like drafting walter payton and telling him; "you have the skills to be a HOF RB but we're going to go ahead and move you to fullback."

The idea is that at safety its harder to avoid him and because of that, you can allow him to have a greater impact.

brncs_fan
01-02-2011, 08:04 PM
And you're advocating an approach that has proven to be a failure.

And your advocating an approach that more often than not proves to be a failure. If the draft was a sure thing then we wouldn't have to worry about having this conversation. If there was a great D-line prospect like there was last year (Suh, Cody) then I would agree with you. But their isn't a great d-line prospect yet this year.

Instead, I would rather go with the more sure fire athlete with our pick and add a much needed component and go for the less sure linemen in the second round where a flop selection isn't as bad.

baja
01-02-2011, 08:04 PM
CB #1 overall?

Well they got Jimmy Clawson that they invested the 48th pick on and I hear Peterson is the best player in the draft so who knows. Their situation is very similar to ours.

This is what I think will happen, Buffalo will pay a dear price to move to #1 and draft Luck.

peacepipe
01-02-2011, 08:06 PM
The idea is that at safety its harder to avoid him and because of that, you can allow him to have a greater impact.it's not that simple, look at it this way with peterson on one side & champ on the other it would free up others to blitz more. we went to the AFCCG with a blitz happy defense because we were able to cover man to man.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 08:08 PM
And your advocating an approach that more often than not proves to be a failure. If the draft was a sure thing then we wouldn't have to worry about having this conversation. If there was a great D-line prospect like there was last year (Suh, Cody) then I would agree with you. But their isn't a great d-line prospect yet this year.

Instead, I would rather go with the more sure fire athlete with our pick and add a much needed component and go for the less sure linemen in the second round where a flop selection isn't as bad.

Investing in the front 7 is a proven failure? Huh?

Honestly, Fairley has been just as disruptive as Suh was last year. That doesnt mean he's the same prospect but there has been a clear difference between him and the other defensive linemen this year.

brncs_fan
01-02-2011, 08:15 PM
Investing in the front 7 is a proven failure? Huh?

Honestly, Fairley has been just as disruptive as Suh was last year. That doesnt mean he's the same prospect but there has been a clear difference between him and the other defensive linemen this year.

That's not what I said.

D-lineman taken in the first round do not have a great track record of panning out. Yet the argument is that we should put all our trust in a d-lineman. Which lineman? Who knows? people on this board can't even agree and it isn't like someone is out of reach for us here.

What most everyone can agree on is that Peterson is an almost sure bet to be a star in the NFL. Everyone can also agree that CB is a glaring need for us. So why reach on a lineman and miss the stud CB when you can address the need later in the draft, especially with the absence of a clear determination as to whether we will be a 3-4 or 4-3 next year.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 08:17 PM
That's not what I said.

D-lineman taken in the first round do not have a great track record of panning out. Yet the argument is that we should put all our trust in a d-lineman. Which lineman? Who knows? people on this board can't even agree and it isn't like someone is out of reach for us here.

What most everyone can agree on is that Peterson is an almost sure bet to be a star in the NFL. Everyone can also agree that CB is a glaring need for us. So why reach on a lineman and miss the stud CB when you can address the need later in the draft, especially with the absence of a clear determination as to whether we will be a 3-4 or 4-3 next year.

You still have to invest in them. Every year youll rationalize not taking a defensive lineman in favor of a more sexy cant miss defensive back if you follow this reasoning. And you'll likely continue to have a flawed model.

brncs_fan
01-02-2011, 08:21 PM
You still have to invest in them. Every year youll rationalize not taking a defensive lineman in favor of a more sexy cant miss defensive back if you follow this reasoning.

It's not like I am trying to create some economic or dogmatic theory here. It's actually quite simple. Peterson is a better prospect. Peterson represents a position of need. There is no sure fire lineman this year that are going to be immediate game changers for us. If there was, I would advocate picking him. Peterson is the BPA at a need position. Therefore, Peterson should be the pick at #2.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 08:29 PM
It's not like I am trying to create some economic or dogmatic theory here. It's actually quite simple. Peterson is a better prospect. Peterson represents a position of need. There is no sure fire lineman this year that are going to be immediate game changers for us. If there was, I would advocate picking him. Peterson is the BPA at a need position. Therefore, Peterson should be the pick at #2.

On the contrary. Because of a lack of pass rush, Champ Bailey's value has been minimized. Thats over 10 million dollars of salary. We currently have a lot invested in Doom. If a defensive lineman produces, he makes every one behind him better and therefore, their value is more maximized. Peterson, on the other hand, would be greatly reliant on the front 7 for him to maximize his value (just like Champ), and if you dont have it, it becomes an issue of economics. Put another way, a good defensive lineman makes more people better than a good defensive back does.

brncs_fan
01-02-2011, 08:34 PM
On the contrary. Because of a lack of pass rush, Champ Bailey's value has been minimized. Thats over 10 million dollars of salary. We currently have a lot invested in Doom. If a defensive lineman produces, he makes every one behind him better and therefore, their value is more maximized. Peterson, on the other hand, would be greatly reliant on the front 7 for him to maximize his value (just like Champ), and if you dont have it, it becomes an issue of economics. Put another way, a good defensive lineman makes more people better than a good defensive back does.

So who do we draft then that is going to instantly maximize the potential of everyone behind him?

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 08:38 PM
So who do we draft then that is going to instantly maximize the potential of everyone behind him?

Im not focused on instantly. We've already covered this. The defensive line is an investment.

brncs_fan
01-02-2011, 08:40 PM
Im not focused on instantly. We've already covered this. The defensive line is an investment.

So invest everything in the d-line so we can be the exact same team next year.

Sounds awesome.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 09:09 PM
So invest everything in the d-line so we can be the exact same team next year.

Sounds awesome.

Were you under the impression that we're not at a rebuild stage?

Clockwork Orange
01-02-2011, 09:18 PM
Peterson is a no brainer for me. A true difference maker and quite possibly the best player in this draft. He's been a starter since his freshman year at LSU and has a pretty lengthy list of achievements.

2010 Bednarik Award Winner (Nation's Top Defender)
2010 Thorpe Award Winner (Nation's Top Defensive Back)
2010 Consensus All-America
2010 First-Team All-America (AP, AFCA Coaches, Walter Camp, Football Writers Association of America, CBSsports.com, Rivals.com, SI.com, CollegeFootballNews.com)
2010 Southeastern Conference Defensive Player of the Year (Coaches)
2010 Southeastern Conference Special Teams Player of the Year (Coaches)
2010 First-Team All-Southeastern Conference Defense (AP, Coaches)
2010 First-Team All-Southeastern Conference Special Teams (Coaches)
2010 Second-Team All-Southeastern Conference All-Purpose (AP)
2010 SEC Special Teams Player of the Week (vs. North Carolina, vs. West Virginia)
2010 Lott IMPACT Player of the Week (vs. North Carolina, vs. Alabama)
2010 Hornung Award Versatile Performance (vs. North Carolina)
2010 Jim Thorpe Award Player of the Week (vs. Mississippi State)
2009 Second-Team All-America (Sporting News)
2009 First-Team All-SEC (ESPN)
2009 Second-Team All-SEC (AP, Coaches)

Take the difference maker at #2 overall and then start filling in the front seven with our high 2nd rounder, mid 2nd rounder and high 3rd rounder. It's not going to fix all of our problems overnight, but it's one hell of a start.

footstepsfrom#27
01-02-2011, 09:35 PM
Peterson is a no brainer for me. A true difference maker and quite possibly the best player in this draft. He's been a starter since his freshman year at LSU and has a pretty lengthy list of achievements.

2010 Bednarik Award Winner (Nation's Top Defender)
2010 Thorpe Award Winner (Nation's Top Defensive Back)
2010 Consensus All-America
2010 First-Team All-America (AP, AFCA Coaches, Walter Camp, Football Writers Association of America, CBSsports.com, Rivals.com, SI.com, CollegeFootballNews.com)
2010 Southeastern Conference Defensive Player of the Year (Coaches)
2010 Southeastern Conference Special Teams Player of the Year (Coaches)
2010 First-Team All-Southeastern Conference Defense (AP, Coaches)
2010 First-Team All-Southeastern Conference Special Teams (Coaches)
2010 Second-Team All-Southeastern Conference All-Purpose (AP)
2010 SEC Special Teams Player of the Week (vs. North Carolina, vs. West Virginia)
2010 Lott IMPACT Player of the Week (vs. North Carolina, vs. Alabama)
2010 Hornung Award Versatile Performance (vs. North Carolina)
2010 Jim Thorpe Award Player of the Week (vs. Mississippi State)
2009 Second-Team All-America (Sporting News)
2009 First-Team All-SEC (ESPN)
2009 Second-Team All-SEC (AP, Coaches)

Take the difference maker at #2 overall and then start filling in the front seven with our high 2nd rounder, mid 2nd rounder and high 3rd rounder. It's not going to fix all of our problems overnight, but it's one hell of a start.
We could also trade up into the 1st round again if there's another D-line guy worth moving up for. We can have Peterson AND at least two D-line guys drafted before the 3rd round if we want to go that route.

Clockwork Orange
01-02-2011, 09:37 PM
We could also trade up into the 1st round again if there's another D-line guy worth moving up for. We can have Peterson AND at least two D-line guys drafted before the 3rd round if we want to go that route.

I could absolutely get on board with that.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 09:38 PM
We could also trade up into the 1st round again if there's another D-line guy worth moving up for. We can have Peterson AND at least two D-line guys drafted before the 3rd round if we want to go that route.

Or we could have more impactful defensive linemen and then draft a CB in the 2nd or 3rd. Thats probably the more sensible way to go. Good defensive linemen make everyone else better. Good DBs, not so much, they need the help of those in front of them.

Kaylore
01-02-2011, 10:07 PM
Its not really a myth. They get pressure regardless of how or where their guys were drafted. Thats how important getting pressure is. And you can use the "we can draft a good defensive linemen" ratonale every year. Theres a good chance you'll end up in the same place. Talk about myths. Embracing the failed model of "you can draft a good defensive lineman later" is what one could call being a slave to a myth. What you're advocating is the definition of insanity.

Insanity? How about making my point for me and then saying it's wrong in the same paragraph?

So you're saying that the only answer is draft high, regardless of other players there, because "we cant get dik lebow!!!!!!!11!!"

Maybe there is a third option? And that would be take the best defender available and get a good coach? Dick LeBeau isn't the only defensive coordinator in the world and he isn't the only one who can make this a good defense again.

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 10:12 PM
Insanity? How about making my point for me and then saying it's wrong in the same paragraph?

So you're saying that the only answer is draft high, regardless of other players there, because "we cant get dik lebow!!!!!!!11!!"

Maybe there is a third option? And that would be take the best defender available and get a good coach? Dick LeBeau isn't the only defensive coordinator in the world and he isn't the only one who can make this a good defense again.

What was your point again other than a defensive lineman in the 2nd is just as good as one in the 1st? Right. That was an awesome point.

Yeah, insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. The model you're promoting has been proven to not work. If anyone should know that, its Broncos fans.

Peterson is a nice player but it's about pressure and stopping the run.

Requiem
01-02-2011, 10:15 PM
Vercing and Orange seem to have a lot of similar qualities!

misturanderson
01-02-2011, 10:54 PM
Vercing and Orange seem to have a lot of similar qualities!
Could they both be Lex?

Requiem
01-02-2011, 11:00 PM
Could they both be Lex?

Pretty much sound identical, especially regarding their talk on DL and the draft.

Orange Se7en also started posted the day after Vercing stopped, so -- yeah. Probably.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 11:15 PM
Why would you convert a CB that could be the next Champ or dieon to safety? it would be like drafting walter payton and telling him; "you have the skills to be a HOF RB but we're going to go ahead and move you to fullback."

Dominant safeties are just as game changing as dominant corners. The position generally requires less physically speaking so those that are able to play the position are more common. Those who are able to play the position at an elite level however are far from common. Safeties can take over a game in ways that corners can only dream of. You remember Steve Atwater in SB XXXII don't you? He dominated that game on defense almost as much as TD did on offense.

extralife
01-02-2011, 11:40 PM
I like the argument that safeties are more valuable than corners. Look at the paychecks, kids. I don't think the people that actually make these decisions agree with you.

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 11:46 PM
I like the argument that safeties are more valuable than corners. Look at the paychecks, kids. I don't think the people that actually make these decisions agree with you.

Wow, that's quite the analysis there. I said that dominant safeties are on the same level as dominant corners. Dominant safeties are very rare though. most safeties are just failed corners with less athleticism. Besides the position of corner is the most over-valued and over-paid position in the game. I know it's probably a bit difficult for you to understand, but the pay structure of the NFL is not always logical. Just look at high-end rookie contracts. Using your logic, rookies are more valuable than veterans...

ZONA
01-02-2011, 11:53 PM
Nope - you don't draft a CB in the top 5 and make him a safety. There is a reason why the CB position is valued higher then a safety. It's harder to play and dominate at then the safety position. Although both positions are in the defensive backfield, they are quite different. If you moved Troy P over to CB, he'd get worked real fast. He's a lagit safety and a great one. But if you are going to spend the coin on a shut down CB (and he would still have to prove in the NFL he can be just that), you keep him at CB.

extralife
01-02-2011, 11:54 PM
Wow, that's quite the analysis there. I said that dominant safeties are on the same level as dominant corners. Dominant safeties are very rare though. most safeties are just failed corners with less athleticism. Besides the position of corner is the most over-valued and over-paid position in the game. I know it's probably a bit difficult for you to understand, but the pay structure of the NFL is not always logical. Just look at high-end rookie contracts. Using your logic, rookies are more valuable than veterans...

well ****, it must be true then.

t-diddy
01-03-2011, 12:17 AM
You still have to invest in them. Every year youll rationalize not taking a defensive lineman in favor of a more sexy cant miss defensive back if you follow this reasoning. And you'll likely continue to have a flawed model.

I don't think anybody is saying to not invest in the D line... just that you don't make that investment with the #2 pick when there is no clear front-runner DE/DT that would justify being taken that high.

There are other ways to "invest" in the D line. We can do it through free agency or through the rest of the draft. Just because we don't do it at #2 doesn't mean we are not investing in it.

In the absence of a "Suh-like" prospect at 2, you take the BPA. It just so happens that this BPA fills a major need.

Agamemnon
01-03-2011, 02:41 AM
I don't think anybody is saying to not invest in the D line... just that you don't make that investment with the #2 pick when there is no clear front-runner DE/DT that would justify being taken that high.

There are other ways to "invest" in the D line. We can do it through free agency or through the rest of the draft. Just because we don't do it at #2 doesn't mean we are not investing in it.

In the absence of a "Suh-like" prospect at 2, you take the BPA. It just so happens that this BPA fills a major need.

Or you trade down, and get more picks. Yeah I'm thinking that's the best way to go...

Drek
01-03-2011, 04:22 AM
Wow, that's quite the analysis there. I said that dominant safeties are on the same level as dominant corners. Dominant safeties are very rare though. most safeties are just failed corners with less athleticism. Besides the position of corner is the most over-valued and over-paid position in the game. I know it's probably a bit difficult for you to understand, but the pay structure of the NFL is not always logical. Just look at high-end rookie contracts. Using your logic, rookies are more valuable than veterans...

The draft is not free market economics at work. In a free market system (free agency) CBs get paid significantly more than safeties because teams value him significantly more than safeties.

How exactly is corner the most over-valued and over-paid position? Corners are the only defender who is asked to play on an island play after play. Elite corners change the entire way teams approach your defense. I could go on, but there is a reason why in a free market environment corners get paid more than safeties, by a large margin.