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footstepsfrom#27
12-31-2010, 08:32 PM
Nearly all the discussion I hear on the D-line guys people want us to trade down for invove either Nick Fairley or Marcell Dareus but Clemson's Da'Quan Bowers led the nation in sacks with 15 and finished 2nd in TFL with 25. He's 6'4", 280, expected to go very high. I'm still coveting Patrick Peterson, but would like to hear arguments for this guy...

Go.

Requiem
12-31-2010, 08:41 PM
Great fit for the 4-3. Not for the 3-4. Beastmode.

GoBroncos84
12-31-2010, 08:47 PM
If we switch back to the 4-3 imagine this: We are able to sign a top FA DT like Brandon Mebane. We draft Bowers. We have a DE rotation of Doom, Ayers and Bowers with Mebane and Bannen starting in the middle. Quite a formidable defensive line.

Lots of variables, obviously. We might not get a top flight DT in free agency. We might win this week and slip a few spots in the draft and not have a shot at Bowers or Peterson. It's just a "what if" thought that I have had.

Killericon
12-31-2010, 08:51 PM
If we switch back to the 4-3 imagine this: We are able to sign a top FA DT like Brandon Mebane. We draft Bowers. We have a DE rotation of Doom, Ayers and Bowers with Mebane and Bannen starting in the middle. Quite a formidable defensive line.

Lots of variables, obviously. We might not get a top flight DT in free agency. We might win this week and slip a few spots in the draft and not have a shot at Bowers or Peterson. It's just a "what if" thought that I have had.

Bannan, starting in the middle? Nothing formidable about that.

SouthStndJunkie
12-31-2010, 08:51 PM
For those who have not seen Da'Quan Bowers play:

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epicSocialism4tw
12-31-2010, 08:58 PM
He seems like a good kid and he has some room to get stronger. He's a good athlete and he's a good physical specimen.

The key with these DL'men is finding the ones who have the drive in them to dominate. You dont want a physical specimen who got by on his God-given ability and didnt put in the effort. You want a guy who will work. I dont know if DaQuan is one of those guys or not. Its too bad that Suh isnt around this year. He's exactly what we need.

KevinJames
12-31-2010, 09:27 PM
Seems like a freak athlete who just dominates weaker opposition, I think he has huge bust potential when I look at DL I look at their get off and how fast they can jump the snap, thats what separates the men from the boys in the NFL and Bowers does not have that first step he seems to lag behind a bit, great run stopper tho I am afraid in the NFL his pass rush would be a bit limited.

The Julius Peppers comparisons I am hearing are way off ......


On the subject of guys with a great first step that boy Fairley definitely does have that but I still prefer Patrick Peterson as our pick.

Hamrob
12-31-2010, 09:32 PM
I watched the clemson Bowl game. He was hardly noticable. I know he's on Kiper's board as the #2 overall talent...but, I'm not sold. I'd rather go DT first...even if we do go back to a 4-3...then, pick up a kid like Krick or Watts later on in the 2nd round.

epicSocialism4tw
12-31-2010, 09:36 PM
Seems like a freak athlete who just dominates weaker opposition, I think he has huge bust potential when I look at DL I look at their get off and how fast they can jump the snap, thats what separates the men from the boys in the NFL and Bowers does not have that first step he seems to lag behind a bit, great run stopper tho I am afraid in the NFL his pass rush would be a bit limited.

The Julius Peppers comparisons I am hearing are way off ......


On the subject of guys with a great first step that boy Fairley definitely does have that but I still prefer Patrick Peterson as our pick.

Julius Peppers is literally the first player that came to my mind watching his highlight video. The comparisons are deserved.

Broncos_OTM
12-31-2010, 10:39 PM
Great fit for the 4-3. Not for the 3-4. Beastmode.

I like Bowers as a one gap DE in a 3-4. The major thing i have isses with him is that his motor. I do however like you think he is better fit in the 43.

Broncos_OTM
12-31-2010, 10:43 PM
I watched the clemson Bowl game. He was hardly noticable. I know he's on Kiper's board as the #2 overall talent...but, I'm not sold. I'd rather go DT first...even if we do go back to a 4-3...then, pick up a kid like Krick or Watts later on in the 2nd round.

I think Watt is a top twenty guy. i like him better then allen, heyward. clayborn.

Crick had a very good year. and i wouldnt doubt him going in the first. He proved to me this year that he could do it wiht out Suh.

Boomhauer
01-01-2011, 12:31 AM
Bowers? Neither dominant nor double teamed yesterday. Dropped into coverage a few times for the RB release, but that looked like his limit. Probably just another over-hyped, scrub 1st-Rnd pick like Ayers.

pricejj
01-01-2011, 12:48 AM
Definitely not beastmode in the bowl game. All the guys on the Clemson D-Line (4-3) averaged 55 tackles this year. He is never double-teamed and seems to just be "a guy" from what I saw. If we pick #2 I say Fairley, but hopefully we pick #5 or #6...

meangene
01-01-2011, 02:23 AM
I think Watt is a top twenty guy. i like him better then allen, heyward. clayborn.

Crick had a very good year. and i wouldnt doubt him going in the first. He proved to me this year that he could do it wiht out Suh.

I'm a huge fan of Watt also - I think he is a top 10 talent who is underrated.

Jesterhole
01-01-2011, 03:09 AM
Outside of QB, DE is probably the hardest position to draft for. So many kids can look good against college linemen, any kind of superior athlete can make 12-15 plays in a year against them for sacks, and all of a sudden you have first round potential. I'm not saying that's the case here, but how many DE's taken in the top 10 have made any kind of impact?

The problem with this draft is that there seems to be no slam dunk #2 guy this year, like there was last year with Suh. Now THAT is a player you can build a defense around.

footstepsfrom#27
01-01-2011, 04:58 AM
Outside of QB, DE is probably the hardest position to draft for. So many kids can look good against college linemen, any kind of superior athlete can make 12-15 plays in a year against them for sacks, and all of a sudden you have first round potential.
Wait..."any" kind of superior athlete can get 12-15 sacks in a year? Then why don't they? ??? This guy led the nation with 15 to go with 25 TFL...I'm pretty sure that there are a bunch of superior athletes at that postion who came nowhere close to that. 12-15 sacks sounds like justification for that first round status IMO.
I'm not saying that's the case here, but how many DE's taken in the top 10 have made any kind of impact?
I don't know...but I hear this argument constantly like it's some kind of unspoken axiom, so I'd like to actually hear the answer. How many? I suspect nobody knows...but it sounds good to say this because it's been repeated so often.
The problem with this draft is that there seems to be no slam dunk #2 guy this year, like there was last year with Suh. Now THAT is a player you can build a defense around.
Not true. Peterson is the clear #2 guy, it's just that nobody wants to accept that since he's a corner. I have no problem taking him but want to hear all arguments against it in favor of D-line too.

I don't know if this kid's the truth or not, but he's being dismissed pretty easily for a guy who is 1) still a junior and, 2) put up eye popping numbers at a position we could use help at. Any player can have an off game, and he must be doing something right to post these kind of numbers against Divison I competition.

Can someone who has spent some time watching Clemson specifically because they're a Tiger fan or because they've been keeping an eye on him respond with a breakdown? Most of the comments so far seem out of wack with what I've read on him and seem thrown together just for this thread. Who has actually spent time studying this kid's game? If you have...weigh in please.

footstepsfrom#27
01-01-2011, 05:06 AM
Reading a bit on this kid, he lost his father in August who he was very close to, and there was some speculation this may have had some impact on him at times this season, which is understandable. It's amazing he overcame that to have a breakout season though, which along is impressive. From what I'm reading so far, he's considered a top 10 pick and we don't know at this point if we're in the 3-4 or the 4-3 so we might as well discuss both options.

Drek
01-01-2011, 05:14 AM
Julius Peppers is literally the first player that came to my mind watching his highlight video. The comparisons are deserved.

Peppers coming out was on a completely different athletic level than Bowers.

He looks like one of the best 4-3 DE prospects in the last few years. Great size for that role, already solid against the run, and is developing as a pass rusher. But his pass rush is all about burst and power, very little technique. I don't think he'll get by with the same bull rush move in the NFL quite so easily.

To me he's something of a wild card still. If he shows off some good technique in work outs and Carolina isn't sold on a QB (i.e. Luck and Newton don't come out) he could go #1 overall. If he is unable to show the next level of pass rushing skills and a lot of big name juniors jump with him he could fall down into the middle of the first, maybe even later.

footstepsfrom#27
01-01-2011, 06:00 AM
I can't see a guy with 15 sacks/25 TFL and running 4.75 in the forty at 275-280 pounds slipping to the middle of the first round. Besides, technique is what they're supposed to be coaching for these guys, so whether he's got it yet or not, that doesn't seem like a big factor knocking him out of the top 10. Fact is...nobody knows if we're going to be a 4-3 or a 3-4...so we shouldn't be limiting our scope of inquiry to only the 3-4 guys. I want Peterson at #2, but if we trade down and he's there along with Fairley and Dareus he's going to merit some consideration. The biggest issue with switching back to the 3-4 IMO is that Elvis is a much better OLB than he is a 4-3 DE...and since he's our only proven pass rusher...but is that enough reason to stick with the 3-4 when we don't have a NT to make it go?

bpc
01-01-2011, 07:24 AM
I think Bowers is legit. I wouldn't have an issue drafting him but he's not my top guy. Sorry, i'm still sticking to BPA, especially since Lloyd is a FA.

1. Peterson - CB
2. AJ Green - WR
3. Bowers/Fairley - Push

I've seen Bowers stand up in a two point stance and run with some athletes in coverage. VERY impressive. You know the guy can rush the passer, and I disagree with those that say he doesn't have a very good first step. Look at some of those sacks on that video... he beat the OT out of his stance.

I agree with Req that he looks like a 4-3 guy but I think he could play in the 3-4 and i'm not opposed to drafting him for that opposite of Doom. As mentioned above, the guy can rush the passer, or he can stand up and cover. That's pretty awesome for a guy his size. He could be another Demarcus Ware. I think with Robert Ayers, he's had a limited impact for numerous reasons and while I still think he has upside at OLB, we could just as easily put on weight and play on the line. I think he would do very well there too. Two birds, one stone. It's all about getting the best 11 on the field.

HAT
01-01-2011, 07:34 AM
Bust city

montrose
01-01-2011, 08:13 AM
Id rather miss on a pass rusher than hit on a CB, that's how tired I am of getting pushed around up front. In 2009 we passed up the "bust-risky" pass rusher in Brian Orakpo for the "safer BPA" in Knowshon Moreno and have regretted it ever since. I don't want to make that mistake again.

TonyR
01-01-2011, 09:18 AM
...especially since Lloyd is a FA.


I think Lloyd is under contract for one more year.

HEAV
01-01-2011, 09:26 AM
Bowers could be a beast. I'm hoping for him...but it depends on the new staff.

HEAV
01-01-2011, 09:38 AM
I think Lloyd is under contract for one more year.

3/5/2010: Signed a two-year, $2.05 million contract. The deal included a $500,000 signing bonus. Lloyd's second-year salary can increase to $1.4 million if he makes the 2010 Pro Bowl. 2010: $755,000, 2011: $795,000, 2012: Free Agent


1.4 Mill for B-Lloyd in 2011! Now we know why he busted his ass in 2010

GoBroncos84
01-01-2011, 11:33 AM
3/5/2010: Signed a two-year, $2.05 million contract. The deal included a $500,000 signing bonus. Lloyd's second-year salary can increase to $1.4 million if he makes the 2010 Pro Bowl. 2010: $755,000, 2011: $795,000, 2012: Free Agent


1.4 Mill for B-Lloyd in 2011! Now we know why he busted his ass in 2010

Quite a bargain for his production. I'm glad he gets that extra bonus

gyldenlove
01-01-2011, 11:58 AM
No, one year wonder pass rushers have an incredible bust rate. If he stays and plays well next year then sign me up, but how many of these junior pass rushers ever pan out?

We need big men, we are getting rag dolled in the middle with the guys we have now and adding people on the outside won't change that.

Bigdawg26
01-01-2011, 12:32 PM
I know we can always use a pass rusher but I think we are forgetting we still have a great one in doom. We don't have to spend our top pick on one (maybe in the second or third round). I think we need a game changer like Peterson that can be used as a shut down corner or safety. Then we can grab a run stuffer and pass rusher in the second.

HEAV
01-01-2011, 02:45 PM
I know we can always use a pass rusher but I think we are forgetting we still have a great one in doom. We don't have to spend our top pick on one (maybe in the second or third round). I think we need a game changer like Peterson that can be used as a shut down corner or safety. Then we can grab a run stuffer and pass rusher in the second.

Take the best talent available on (Your) board and move along. Drafting for need over talent is always a sure fire way to fail.

Have to be smart with this pick. Bowers would help out the front line. Peterson could replace Champ. We earned this 2nd overall spot, let's not waste it.

oubronco
01-01-2011, 02:57 PM
Dareus or Fairley would be alot better

briane
01-01-2011, 03:07 PM
Bust city

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brings back bad...sick....memories.

dont watch it all...you will get sick.

bpc
01-01-2011, 03:11 PM
I think Lloyd is under contract for one more year.

Good call.

broncocalijohn
01-01-2011, 03:14 PM
I know we can always use a pass rusher but I think we are forgetting we still have a great one in doom. We don't have to spend our top pick on one (maybe in the second or third round). I think we need a game changer like Peterson that can be used as a shut down corner or safety. Then we can grab a run stuffer and pass rusher in the second.

You do realize that we had Doom last year and still needed help with the run stuff correct? We need DL pronto and we can argue which guy but if we dont go front 7 in the first 2 to 3 picks, we will continue to have the same nagging problems the last 5 season.

broncocalijohn
01-01-2011, 03:17 PM
Take the best talent available on (Your) board and move along. Drafting for need over talent is always a sure fire way to fail.

Have to be smart with this pick. Bowers would help out the front line. Peterson could replace Champ. We earned this 2nd overall spot, let's not waste it.

Yes, because that always worked for the Lions and even the Raiders. How many stud WRs did Lions need to draft to finally realize that wasnt their need? If you think your "need" isnt up to where you are selecting, trade down, pick up some picks and select to get your need. If Tebow is our guy, there is no reason to pick a guy like Luck and have two first round QBs. One will be hailed as the starter and the other a bust when you try to trade him.

Requiem
01-01-2011, 03:25 PM
Please don't compare Bowers to Moss.

Jesterhole
01-01-2011, 04:01 PM
Wait..."any" kind of superior athlete can get 12-15 sacks in a year? Then why don't they? ??? This guy led the nation with 15 to go with 25 TFL...I'm pretty sure that there are a bunch of superior athletes at that postion who came nowhere close to that. 12-15 sacks sounds like justification for that first round status IMO.

I give you Moss and Ayers. Two guys we drafted in the first round who had one good season, enough to put them into the first round.

I don't know...but I hear this argument constantly like it's some kind of unspoken axiom, so I'd like to actually hear the answer. How many? I suspect nobody knows...but it sounds good to say this because it's been repeated so often.


Tyson Jackson, Aaron Maybin, Chris Long, Derrick Harvey, Gaines Adams, Jamal Anderson, and Mario Williams were the DE taken in the top 10 in the past few years. Mario Williams is the only one who has had a good deal of success for far, and that really hasn't helped the Texan's D the past 5 years.

Not true. Peterson is the clear #2 guy, it's just that nobody wants to accept that since he's a corner. I have no problem taking him but want to hear all arguments against it in favor of D-line too.

I don't know if this kid's the truth or not, but he's being dismissed pretty easily for a guy who is 1) still a junior and, 2) put up eye popping numbers at a position we could use help at. Any player can have an off game, and he must be doing something right to post these kind of numbers against Divison I competition.

Eye popping numbers against average college talent for one year, exactly like Ayers.

I'm not sure he is being dismissed, but he isn't a sure thing, and that is what you need if you're going to give someone #2 money.

ICON
01-01-2011, 04:26 PM
He takes obvious plays off. You want that in top 5 pick? Not me. I would shy away from giving players tons of money who can't motivate themselves to give it their all. I don't even want to sniff DaQuan Bowers, he has potential bust written all over him every few plays he takes a snooze.

If we move to a 4-3 Patrick Peterson or Nick Fairley are the pick. No other debate necessary !

Bowers has question with his enthusiasm and motor, which is a bad sign for a defender.Odds are we will have needs at every level of the defense .

If we stay in the 3-4, Dareus or Patrick Peterson have to be the pick.

oubronco
01-01-2011, 04:48 PM
I do not want Bowers

TonyR
01-01-2011, 05:37 PM
I'm not sure he is being dismissed, but he isn't a sure thing, and that is what you need if you're going to give someone #2 money.

Good post, Jester. I really think if we have the 2nd pick in the draft we have to get as close to a "sure thing" as possible, and that player is probably Peterson. Then hopefully use both 2nd round picks and the 3rd round pick on front 7.

pricejj
01-01-2011, 07:59 PM
I give you Moss and Ayers. Two guys we drafted in the first round who had one good season, enough to put them into the first round.


Robert Ayers: Tennessee SOLB/DE 6-3 270 lbs 4.77 forty time
Year Age Tackles Sacks
2007 22 33 4
2008 23 49 3

Ayers DID NOT have "eye-popping" college numbers. Was a late riser in the draft, and a real reach. Has a paltry 54 tackles and 1.5 sacks in two years at SOLB as a Denver Bronco. Likely projection as a decent starting SILB in a 3-4. Pass rush ability is undeveloped. Playing out of position in 2010. The Broncos need to generate a pass rush with WOLB and SOLB.

Da'Quan Bowers: Clemson SOLB/DE 6-4 280 lbs 4.65 forty time
Year Age Tackles Sacks
2009 19 46 3
2010 20 67 15.5

Awesome Junior year at Clemson playing in a dominant Clemson 4-3 D-line. Not double-teamed. Check his production levels and age compared to Ayers. I was not impressed in his bowl game performance, but he is young, need to check more tape. WAY more productive than Ayers in college. To me, doesn't seem worthy of a top 5 pick. I don't know that he has the open field lateral movement to be an effective pass rusher from the LB position.

Nick Fairley: Auburn DE/DT 6-4 315 lbs 4.92 forty time
Year Age Tackles Sacks
2009 20 28 1
2010 21 55 11

Dominant this year from what I see in highlights. Continually pushes his man into the backfield. Often double-teamed. Bowl game is Jan. 10 for BCS Championship. Nasty and emotional. Basically a one-year statline at Auburn, but only started playing football as a senior in high-school, then one-year JUCO, started coming on at the end of last year at Auburn. Reminds me of Gerard Warren, would make our D-Line instantly better at #2 overall, but still a little high for his worth compared to years past. Cheap shot artist. All-American DT

If we are forced to pick at #2 or #5, go Fairley. But why? We have all the leverage. There isn't a Haloti Ngata (6-4 340, #12 overall) or Terrell Suggs (6-3 260 #10 overall) in this draft. WE NEED A PASS RUSH. How about we trade down and get two All-American pass rusher's for the price of one (plus Orton)? There must be somebody willing to trade up for Cam Newton or Ryan Mallett...

Ryan Kerrigan: Purdue SOLB/DE 6-4 263 lbs 4.8 forty time
Year Age Tackles Sacks
2008 20 56 7
2009 21 66 12
2010 22 70 13

Consistent pass rusher, would be ideal at the SOLB position in our 3-4, ala Karl Mecklenburg. Projected mid-teens. All-American DE

Jared Crick: Nebraska DE/DT 6-6 298 lbs 4.96 forty time
Year Age Tackles Sacks
2009 20 70 9
2010 21 70 10

Double-teamed this year with the absence of Suh on the Nebraska D-Line. Produced ton of tackles and good sack numbers consistently. Solid against the run. Projected late first round. 2nd team All-American DE

epicSocialism4tw
01-01-2011, 08:32 PM
Tyson Jackson, Aaron Maybin, Chris Long, Derrick Harvey, Gaines Adams, Jamal Anderson, and Mario Williams were the DE taken in the top 10 in the past few years. Mario Williams is the only one who has had a good deal of success for far, and that really hasn't helped the Texan's D the past 5 years.

Chris Long is a good player for St. Louis, and a cornerstone in the successful rebuild of their defense.

Just about all of those guys get reps and would probably start in Denver.

peacepipe
01-01-2011, 08:41 PM
Chris Long is a good player for St. Louis, and a cornerstone in the successful rebuild of their defense.

Just about all of those guys get reps and would probably start in Denver.

outside of mario williams you can get that kind of production in the 2nd round. fortunately we got 2 2nds.

epicSocialism4tw
01-01-2011, 08:44 PM
outside of mario williams you can get that kind of production in the 2nd round. fortunately we got 2 2nds.

Fortunately for us, we'll be taking a blue-chip defensive player in the first round.

We want Fairley.

footstepsfrom#27
01-01-2011, 10:34 PM
I give you Moss and Ayers. Two guys we drafted in the first round who had one good season, enough to put them into the first round.
Neither Moss not Ayers ever posted 15 sacks in a single season. Moss had 15 for his college career, and if memory serves, Ayers had maybe 8 or 9 his last season. Ayers however, is not the best guy to use for your example, since very few D-line guys produce in year one, and the guy is starting now. He's hardly a bust, let alone should he be mentioned with Moss, or as a counteracting argument to taking a guy with 40 plays last season that resulted in opposition losing yardage. And how do either of the examples you point out even come close to proving that "any" superior athlete can get 15 sacks? In fact you just proved my point...neither of them did so and both are excellent athetes in their own right.
Tyson Jackson, Aaron Maybin, Chris Long, Derrick Harvey, Gaines Adams, Jamal Anderson, and Mario Williams were the DE taken in the top 10 in the past few years. Mario Williams is the only one who has had a good deal of success for far, and that really hasn't helped the Texan's D the past 5 years.
Tyson Jackson is in his 2nd year and playing in the 3-4 where he's expected to occupy blockers so the jury is out on him, and if I go look closer than you did, I'll bet I can find examples of stud DE's taken in the top 10 just as you found some busts. I hardly think a DE is more rather than less likely to make it because he was drafted in the 4th round instead of the top 10 picks.
Eye popping numbers against average college talent for one year, exactly like Ayers
Ayers did not have eye popping numbers. As far as college talent being inferior to the NFL...so what? You can say that about every player drafted...it's a meaningless argument.
I'm not sure he is being dismissed, but he isn't a sure thing, and that is what you need if you're going to give someone #2 money.
As I said, and you should know since I posted the thread on wanting Peterson in the firsrt place, I'm not advocating he be taken #2 (even though Kiper has him ranked there), I'm asking what people (mainly those who actually followed him all year) think of him if we trade down...that's the whole point, is he worth trading down for?

footstepsfrom#27
01-01-2011, 10:46 PM
Da'Quan Bowers: Clemson SOLB/DE 6-4 280 lbs 4.65 forty time
Year Age Tackles Sacks
2009 19 46 3
2010 20 67 15.5

Awesome Junior year at Clemson playing in a dominant Clemson 4-3 D-line. Not double-teamed. Check his production levels and age compared to Ayers. I was not impressed in his bowl game performance, but he is young, need to check more tape. WAY more productive than Ayers in college. To me, doesn't seem worthy of a top 5 pick. I don't know that he has the open field lateral movement to be an effective pass rusher from the LB position.
I've read numerous things on the web that indicate he was double teamed all year. Admittedly I didn't watch him, but that point is made so often, if it's untrue, I'd like you to link to something on that, because it's a major point. Also, the kid openly stated that he wasn't working as hard as he could his first two years in school. Losing his dad who he was very close to apparently caused the light to go on. He's only a junior, so it's hardly fair to expect him to have multiple years of big time production at this point.
Nick Fairley: Auburn DE/DT 6-4 315 lbs 4.92 forty time
Year Age Tackles Sacks
2009 20 28 1
2010 21 55 11
Is Fairly this big? I've seen him listed at about 285-290 but not 315....where is this info from?

footstepsfrom#27
01-01-2011, 10:49 PM
Good post, Jester. I really think if we have the 2nd pick in the draft we have to get as close to a "sure thing" as possible, and that player is probably Peterson. Then hopefully use both 2nd round picks and the 3rd round pick on front 7.
Again...the question was not about Peterson or Bowers at #2, the question is about Peterson at #2 or Bowers somewhere in the top 10 PLUS whatever we get in return for trading down. Peterson is my first choice...just want some informed opinions on this guy too in case we do trade down.

pricejj
01-02-2011, 01:06 AM
I've read numerous things on the web that indicate he was double teamed all year. Admittedly I didn't watch him, but that point is made so often, if it's untrue, I'd like you to link to something on that, because it's a major point.

From all of the highlights that I've watched of Bowers on Youtube I see NO sacks coming from a double team. He moves extremely well, and is lean and quick. Very active. He also plays in the ACC, and has recorded big sack games against weaker opponents. He is the top 4-3 DE in this draft. Did NOT play OLB in college.

In contast, Fairley's Youtube highlights show him beating double teams consistently in the SEC, and has 2 sacks from a triple-team this year (according to AU fan boards). He is the top 3-4 DE/4-3 DT in this draft, but has character issues. Even if Fairley is available when we pick, I would be highly interested in trading down. There are plenty impact 3-4 DE and SOLB in this draft.



Is Fairly this big? I've seen him listed at about 285-290 but not 315....where is this info from?

http://football.about.com/od/playerprofiles/p/Nick-Fairley.htm

Don't know where the guy got his number, but I used it. Auburn's website has him listed as 298, which I assume was taken at the start of the year. I will go with 298 lbs until further concrete data becomes available.

footstepsfrom#27
01-02-2011, 01:21 AM
From all of the highlights that I've watched of Bowers on Youtube I see NO sacks coming from a double team. He moves extremely well, and is lean and quick. Very active. He also plays in the ACC, and has recorded big sack games against weaker opponents. He is the top 4-3 DE in this draft. Did NOT play OLB in college.

In contast, Fairley's Youtube highlights show him beating double teams consistently in the SEC, and has 2 sacks from a triple-team this year (according to AU fan boards). He is the top 3-4 DE/4-3 DT in this draft, but has character issues. Even if Fairley is available when we pick, I would be highly interested in trading down. There are plenty impact 3-4 DE and SOLB in this draft.

http://football.about.com/od/playerprofiles/p/Nick-Fairley.htm

Don't know where the guy got his number, but I used it. Auburn's website has him listed as 298, which I assume was taken at the start of the year. I will go with 298 lbs until further concrete data becomes available.
Interesting...but I would hesitate in using YouTube highlights as any kind of definitive evaluation tool. I like both Frailey and the Bama kid, as well as this guy. I don't know what playing in the ACC has to do with it though. No it's not the SEC, but that doesn't mean you won't find stud players there.

I notice alot of people seeking 3-4 players...let's remember we have no idea which system we'll be playing next year. I want playmakers more than anything, which is why I was interested in a guy who had 40 plays last season in which he created negative yardage for the opposition. Thnk about that number...it's pretty impressive. I'm pretty sure that's higher than what Dumervil had when he led the nation in sacks.

At the end of the day, I want Peterson because I think he's got superstar talent, but we ought to be able to come out of this draft with significant defensive help no matter how we slice it. Even if we stay put at #2, we can still draft two D-line guys in the 2nd round, or we could package and move up for a guy they targeted...maybe the Samoan kid at Oregon who looks like a block of granite in the middle.

pricejj
01-02-2011, 02:36 AM
You bring up some good points. Bowers is a nice player, but has one year of stats and racked up some sacks against North Texas (2), Maryland (3), and Wake Forest (2). Pretty low caliber opponents. I would get him at #10 or lower, but only if we're running a 4-3.

Peterson is great, but if Champ stays around, we could get a starting CB in the 3rd.

The last elite talent that we drafted on the DL was Trevor Pryce at #28 in 1997.

I am excited about the depth on the DL in this draft. :)

bpc
01-02-2011, 03:18 AM
I have to admit I have a soft-spot for Nick Fairley. Dude is a mix between Trevor Pryce and Richard Seymore. I'm not sure if he immediately comes on the scene and dominates in multiple defenses though. I know his value in a 4-3. Can't say the same in the 3-4.

Peterson could be a once in a decade CB like Champ, Revis, or Asomugha. Hard to pass on a guy like that, especially if we can resign Champ who still has a good two or three years of quality CB play in him.

I'm still leaving this out there... Aj Green is a stud!

OrangeSe7en
01-02-2011, 03:34 AM
I have to admit I have a soft-spot for Nick Fairley. Dude is a mix between Trevor Pryce and Richard Seymore. I'm not sure if he immediately comes on the scene and dominates in multiple defenses though. I know his value in a 4-3. Can't say the same in the 3-4.

Peterson could be a once in a decade CB like Champ, Revis, or Asomugha. Hard to pass on a guy like that, especially if we can resign Champ who still has a good two or three years of quality CB play in him.

I'm still leaving this out there... Aj Green is a stud!

He wouldnt be two-gapping on passing downs. It's more important to pressure the QB. People should know this from the past few years.

Drek
01-02-2011, 04:27 AM
nobody knows if we're going to be a 4-3 or a 3-4...so we shouldn't be limiting our scope of inquiry to only the 3-4 guys.

If we go to a 4-3 we have Doom and Ayers for the two DEs. At that point we're looking at Bannan and nobody else for the interior. Bowers isn't an interior player.

If we're going back to a 4-3 your DL target needs to be Fairley, high risk and all, because he can rotate between UT and DE while we lock Bannan in at NT.

If you're staying 3-4 there is no place for Bowers once again, and your best DL move in the top 10 is to get Marcell Dareus hoping for a dominant end.

epicSocialism4tw
01-02-2011, 12:05 PM
Draft Nick Fairley.

oubronco
01-02-2011, 12:07 PM
Draft Marcel Dareus

Play2win
01-02-2011, 12:33 PM
Draft Marcel Dareus

Watching that bowl game the other night, he looked like EXACTLY what we needed!!

He was active on almost every play, and more times than not, blowing up the pocket. It would great to finally get a big guy that actually performed on our D-Line.

oubronco
01-02-2011, 12:35 PM
Watching that bowl game the other night, he looked like EXACTLY what we needed!!

He was active on almost every play, and more times than not, blowing up the pocket. It would great to finally get a big guy that actually performed on our D-Line.

He's been doing it his whole career :strong:

elsid13
01-02-2011, 01:02 PM
I don't want Bowers, he remind me to much of Clemson DE that Miami drafted and traded to Chicago.

Play2win
01-02-2011, 01:08 PM
He's been doing it his whole career :strong:

Sounds like just what the doctor ordered. We need strength inside, and the ability to blow the pocket up. Seems like Dareus would go a long ways in getting us going in that direction. :thumbsup:

footstepsfrom#27
01-02-2011, 01:39 PM
If we go to a 4-3 we have Doom and Ayers for the two DEs. At that point we're looking at Bannan and nobody else for the interior. Bowers isn't an interior player.
Except that Doom has not proven he can be an every down DE without wearing down...he's much better at OLB, and Ayers hasn't proven anything at all yet.

Drek
01-02-2011, 01:46 PM
Except that Doom has not proven he can be an every down DE without wearing down...he's much better at OLB, and Ayers hasn't proven anything at all yet.

Are you suggesting that we play Doom at OLB in a 4-3 defense?

Its not like we're trading him. He's got over $40M in guaranteed money on his new deal.

And he's one dimensional in the same skill set that makes Bowers valuable, rushing the passer.

And Ayers was actually emerging as a solid starter prior to getting hurt, and his biggest weakness is probably pass pro. As a DE he doesn't need to worry about that many more.

If we go 4-3 you put Doom back on the weak side at DE, Ayers puts some of that college wait back on to get up to ~280 or so and you put him on the strong side. Get a combo like Fairley and Paea in the draft and let them rotate with Bannan while Hunter takes time with Doom and Ayers at DE.

The problem with us going back to a 4-3 isn't our ends. Its our DTs. Same reason why we suck in a 3-4. We're real short on 300+ pound crushers who win the battle at the LOS, not 265-280 rushers.

He just doesn't fit here over a guy like Fairley or Dareus. He might be a comparable prospect (and that is a strong emphasis on "might") but even if he is he doesn't fill nearly the same need on this team.

The only reason you consider Peterson over Dareus or Fairley is because he is such an otherworldly freak at CB. There's a good chance come draft day he's viewed as the single best talent in the entire class. And CB is a bigger need than 4-3 DE/3-4 OLB is for this team.

footstepsfrom#27
01-02-2011, 02:27 PM
Are you suggesting that we play Doom at OLB in a 4-3 defense?
No I'm suggesting Ayers has proven nothing. I don't think he's a 4-3 OLB obviously, but in the 3-4 he might bulk up to DE and Bowers might be that guy instead. Bowers could plat either the 4-3 DE or the 3-4 OLB I think...I realize that's a risky thing but so is putting Ayers in at OLB in the 3-4. Bowers has shown he can cover downfield, and he's faster than Ayers, running a 4.65 at last report. Bowers might be a good enough athlete to play any LB spot in the 3-4. Keep in mind...he might be what's left if we win this game today.
And he's one dimensional in the same skill set that makes Bowers valuable, rushing the passer.
He's not one dimensional if he's shown he can cover downfield, which he reportedly has. Ayers cannot do that, which to me makes him a better DE candidate in the 4-3 than he is a 3-4 OLB candidate. I don't think at this point he has the same pass rushing skill set that Bowers has, and if he does, he certainly didn't demonstrate it in college by his sack numbers. Right now...we have one pass rusher who doesn't suck and he's best in the 3-4 defense as an OLB. I suggest we need another, whether that's Ayers or Bowers it doesnt' matter, but we definitely need another outside pass rusher in the 3-4.
And Ayers was actually emerging as a solid starter prior to getting hurt, and his biggest weakness is probably pass pro. As a DE he doesn't need to worry about that many more.
I don't think he's big enough to play DE in the 3-4 and even as a 4-3 DE I'd prefer a guy about 290 on the strong side. I wonder if he and Bowers could both start in 3-4 LB spots? We'd have an LB corp the size of the Steelers.
If we go 4-3 you put Doom back on the weak side at DE, Ayers puts some of that college wait back on to get up to ~280 or so and you put him on the strong side. Get a combo like Fairley and Paea in the draft and let them rotate with Bannan while Hunter takes time with Doom and Ayers at DE.
Doom wears down at the DE spot, that's the whole point. He was the NFL's sack leader at OLB, why move him to DE where he struggles with the run and tallies half as many sacks? The problem is we don't have a legit NT to make the 3-4 work, so it's either sacrifice some of Doom's effectiveness and more to the 4-3 or draft a legit NT and hope he can contribute as a rookie. There are two in this draft that might fit...the Samoan kid at Oregon and the Powe kid at Mississippi. I think both are gone in the mid to late first not the 2nd like some people think. There's a premium on these interior D-line guys and somebody will snap one or both up before we draft again in the 2nd IMO.
The problem with us going back to a 4-3 isn't our ends. Its our DTs. Same reason why we suck in a 3-4. We're real short on 300+ pound crushers who win the battle at the LOS, not 265-280 rushers.
All well and good if there's a guy there at the #2 pick that fits talent-wise, but most people think there isn't. Do you pass on a probable all pro CB who might be the next Sanders for a pretty good D-line guy? At the top of the draft I think you look for playmakers...nobody made more plays in the front 7 than Bowers did...40 plays in whicch he created negative yardage last season. That's by far the highest figure in the nation. Considering Elvis is suited only for the OLB spot, are you willing to bet that either Frailey or the Bama kid are going to be a NT in the NFL? Because I think you won't see either of the other two interior guys past the late first round.
He just doesn't fit here over a guy like Fairley or Dareus. He might be a comparable prospect (and that is a strong emphasis on "might") but even if he is he doesn't fill nearly the same need on this team.
Kiper has him ranked 2nd overall...yes I know it's Kiper but others have him in the top 5 so let's quit acting like he's way behind those guys...he might be ahead of both of them on some boards.
The only reason you consider Peterson over Dareus or Fairley is because he is such an otherworldly freak at CB. There's a good chance come draft day he's viewed as the single best talent in the entire class. And CB is a bigger need than 4-3 DE/3-4 OLB is for this team.
Agreed on this...especially if Champ leaves. But by the same token, you're assuming that either Dareus or Fairley can play NT at 300 pounds or smaller...unless you think Powe or Pea last till the 2nd, which I don't. That means if you take either Fairley or Dareus, you're probably risking them at either NT or DE in the 3-4...I think they're both to small for NT and drafting a DE that high in the 3-4 doesnt' make sense if you want playmakers that high in the draft.

Screw it...just take Peterson and we have a CB for 10 years who can cover the Bowes and Vincent Jacksons of the world easily. I hope I'm wrong on the two interior guys but I expect them both to go by 20-28 in this draft.

KevinJames
01-02-2011, 05:34 PM
lol @ Bowers being a 3-4 OLB ROFL!

Gcver2ver3
01-02-2011, 05:39 PM
If we go to a 4-3 we have Doom and Ayers for the two DEs.

i wouldnt let robert ayers prevent me from drafting an impact player such as bowers...

if bowers is the bpa, then i'd grab him...

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 05:43 PM
I wouldn't be sad if we went with Bowers. That said I tend to feel our pass rush is less of a concern than our run defense. So I naturally prefer a dominate d-lineman. Actually I prefer trading down and amassing picks for a full on rebuild. But yeah, if we take Bowers I'll be okay with that.

footstepsfrom#27
01-02-2011, 06:54 PM
We have two 2nds and should add at least an extra 3rd for Orton, leaving us with 4 picks in those two rounds. We ought to be able to either sit tight and still do well with some front 7 talent or we could trade back into the first round and nab a higher ranked D-line guy as well as one after that. We could wind up with Peterson and 3 D-line guys all drafted no lower than the 2nd round if we wanted to do that.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-02-2011, 06:55 PM
I wouldn't be sad if we went with Bowers. That said I tend to feel our pass rush is less of a concern than our run defense. So I naturally prefer a dominate d-lineman. Actually I prefer trading down and amassing picks for a full on rebuild. But yeah, if we take Bowers I'll be okay with that.

If we had linebackers who understood gap discipline at all, it'd be a lot better

Agamemnon
01-02-2011, 07:01 PM
If we had linebackers who understood gap discipline at all, it'd be a lot better

So true. It's been killing me all year, how often these guys are completely out of position on running plays. No wonder we have the second worst run d in the league.

McDman
01-02-2011, 08:14 PM
Doom wears down at the DE spot, that's the whole point. He was the NFL's sack leader at OLB, why move him to DE where he struggles with the run and tallies half as many sacks? The problem is we don't have a legit NT to make the 3-4 work, so it's either sacrifice some of Doom's effectiveness and more to the 4-3 or draft a legit NT and hope he can contribute as a rookie. There are two in this draft that might fit...the Samoan kid at Oregon and the Powe kid at Mississippi. I think both are gone in the mid to late first not the 2nd like some people think. There's a premium on these interior D-line guys and somebody will snap one or both up before we draft again in the 2nd IMO.


Doom was pretty damn effective in the 4-3 his first two years. If we go back to a 4-3 we cannot have Doom as a LBer, it just doesn't make sense.

footstepsfrom#27
01-02-2011, 08:50 PM
Doom was pretty damn effective in the 4-3 his first two years. If we go back to a 4-3 we cannot have Doom as a LBer, it just doesn't make sense.
Doom had half as many sacks at the DE spot and half this board was complaining about him not being able to play the run when he lined up at DE. He's an elite pass rusher from the OLB spot, and a pretty good/not great one from the DL spot.

Dagmar
01-02-2011, 08:55 PM
Am I the only person that thinks Bannan and Vickerson are pretty good on the DL?

HEAV
01-02-2011, 09:02 PM
Am I the only person that thinks Bannan and Vickerson are pretty good on the DL?

Vickerson is more a rotation type guy. Bannan is slighlty above that.

I still think Bowers @ DE is the fix. He would provide rush and still manage the run, along with allowing Ayers & Doom single blocking.

Dagmar
01-02-2011, 09:03 PM
Don't get me wrong, I don't think they should be starting every week.

McDman
01-02-2011, 09:08 PM
Doom had half as many sacks at the DE spot and half this board was complaining about him not being able to play the run when he lined up at DE. He's an elite pass rusher from the OLB spot, and a pretty good/not great one from the DL spot.

He's an elite rusher from the OLB spot if we are in a 3-4. If we go back to a 4-3 it renders him useless if we keep him and LB. Good 4-3 teams generate pressure with their front four, if we keep him at LB that means we have ti blitz damn near every time and that leaves us extremely vulnerable.

rugbythug
01-02-2011, 09:12 PM
He's an elite rusher from the OLB spot if we are in a 3-4. If we go back to a 4-3 it renders him useless if we keep him and LB. Good 4-3 teams generate pressure with their front four, if we keep him at LB that means we have ti blitz damn near every time and that leaves us extremely vulnerable.

he would play end in the nickle. Just like last year.

DarkHorse
01-02-2011, 09:46 PM
Just want to be on record as wanting Peterson with our #2 pick. There's just too many of you very technical guys on here that cannot agree on a clear cut DL prospect with the #2 pick but everybody, including 'experts', that say Peterson is an NFL ready stud waiting to hit the field.


And, we need a safety prospect/corner if Champ leaves. Peterson would fill a need and is a 'can't miss prospect'.


So i'm told.


Peterson for me.