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Bronco Rob
12-31-2010, 07:28 PM
Talent-deprived Broncos facing major makeover



By Jeff Legwold
The Denver Post
Posted: 12/31/2010 01:00:00 AM MST


The logo on their helmets is an orange-maned horse, but the Broncos might as well slap a big orange question mark in its place.

"Nobody knows who's going to be here, who's going to be making the decisions, who stays, who goes," Broncos cornerback Champ Bailey said. "Nobody knows what kind of team this will be."

The first steps will be taken next week, when the team's assistant coaches are expected to be apprised of their futures and Hall of Fame quarterback John Elway joins the team in a front-office position. Evaluations of Broncos players hint at the second total makeover of the team since Josh McDaniels arrived in 2008.

The Denver Post contacted personnel executives from eight NFL teams to determine how they rank Denver personnel and how much work they believe the Broncos have in front of them in a multiyear rebuilding job.

It is something Broncos chief operating officer Joe Ellis alluded to when he said: "We know we have work to do."

Those personnel executives see an aging, thin roster facing a large talent deficit. Some of it is because of the number of moves McDaniels and the team's personnel department made with the more than three dozen players who were brought in or sent packing in his 22 months on the job.

Of the 53 players on the Broncos' roster, 40 arrived in the last two seasons. That's 74 percent of the roster, and there are another five players on injured reserve who were brought in by the team since the start of 2009.

The personnel execs also say that when the Broncos, under McDaniels, traded away players such as Jay Cutler, Peyton Hillis, Brandon Marshall and Alphonso Smith, they didn't get comparably ranked talent in return.

Teams, and some respected longtime talent consultants such as Mike Giddings, use a color-coding system to rank players. Often, a blue rating represents the elite at a position. Two teams said Bailey was the only Broncos player with such a rating. The other six said the Broncos do not have a "blue" player. On average, a successful playoff team will have three or more "blue" players.

The next level down is Pro Bowl level. The consensus was that Bailey, guard Chris Kuper, outside linebacker Elvis Du- mervil and left tackle Ryan Clady were the only Broncos on this tier.

All four of those players are holdovers from Mike Shana- han's tenure. Several teams said Clady did not quite play to that level this season because of offseason knee surgery, but they expect him to improve with another offseason to improve his leg strength.

The next tier down is that of a solid starter, a capable player who can be productive. None of those surveyed gave the Broncos more than 12 players on this





Read more: Talent-deprived Broncos facing major makeover - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16978932#ixzz19kbEpE4F
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

Requiem
12-31-2010, 07:35 PM
Yeah, we are a mess.

Killericon
12-31-2010, 07:37 PM
I must admit, in the dark recesses of my mind, I cannot help but think that at the very least, if there's a lockout, it couldn't've been any more well timed for us.

broncosteven
12-31-2010, 07:43 PM
Rookie quarterback Tim Te- bow and running back Know- shon Moreno, who was Mc- Daniels' first draft pick in 2009, were among players the personnel executives said they wanted to see more from. Most of those surveyed said they would put Moreno and Tebow just below the level of solid starter with the potential to move up.

Below that are the role players who add depth and can help a team play situational football. On this level, those surveyed agreed on running back Correll Buckhalter; wide receivers Jabar Gaffney and Eric Decker; linebackers Robert Ayers, Mario Haggan and Wesley Woodyard; safety Brian Dawkins; cornerback Syd'Quan Thompson; and cornerback/safety Nate Jones.

Read more: Talent-deprived Broncos facing major makeover - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16978932#ixzz19keJUuyb
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

KM is rated just below the level of solid starter and Ayers is a depth guy. I guess they could have been complete out right busts. Would have been nice to get more out of our 1st round picks, maybe the next HC can get them to their true potential.

broncosteven
12-31-2010, 07:45 PM
On a positive note, I think Kuper would be a starter on any team in the NFL.

vanbrugh
12-31-2010, 07:47 PM
Happy new year to you jeff too!

You know it's not as bad as it seems.....it never is!

Happy new year - god bless:super:

gunns
12-31-2010, 07:51 PM
I can't wait till next week. Should begin to create another off season of Orange Mane meltdowns and be very interesting to see the direction they go. Should be a quick off season.

GoBroncos84
12-31-2010, 07:52 PM
Which is why I think it's so imperative that Champ Bailey finishes his career a Bronco. He is a very critical and reliable piece we can build around. Dumervil coming back from injury makes us instantly better. Those are the cornerstone pieces on defense. The rest of that unit needs an overhaul. Some players, like D.J. and Ayers, can flourish if we improve our defensive line. That would also improve our secondary just by improving the pass rush. But if we lose Bailey, that gives us one truly premiere player on defense to build on. And if we go back to a 4-3 that would somewhat hinder his impact as well. Offensively, I think we are much closer. Beadles and Walton will improve, they have shown flashes of what they can be but overall they've been inconsistent and lacked dominance, like most rookies. Clady and Harris can be bookends if they are both healthy. Injuries are a trend for Harris, unfortunately, but he is tough and tries to play through them. We are very deep and talented at receiver. Five deep, definitely a position of strength. Moreno is a difference maker and all around talent when he is healthy, which as we know has been an issue. We lack a vertical threat at tight end, and can't even really count on our tight ends in the receiving game at all. Could upgrade at fullback, improve depth and talent behind Moreno. Then it just depends on how Tebow develops. That side of the ball isn't nearly as dire. Three first round picks in the last two years dedicated to offensive skill positions. This team just needs massive upgrades on defense. That has to be the priority this offseason, no matter who is coaching or coordinating or in the front office.

Broncoman13
12-31-2010, 08:32 PM
But tsiguy told me that there was plenty of talent on this team???

OrangenBlueOhio
12-31-2010, 08:42 PM
But tsiguy told me that there was plenty of talent on this team???

He meant talent like "America's Got Talent".:clown:

TonyR
12-31-2010, 08:46 PM
This might be the most disappointing part of the article:

At this level, there was some disagreement with a few teams offering that rookie center J.D. Walton and rookie guard Zane Beadles have potential to make a jump for next season, but none of the teams rank Walton or Beadles as long-term starters. The two rookies have started every game for the Broncos.

Read more: Talent-deprived Broncos facing major makeover - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16978932#ixzz19kuhFAZL

snowspot66
12-31-2010, 11:22 PM
This might be the most disappointing part of the article:

At this level, there was some disagreement with a few teams offering that rookie center J.D. Walton and rookie guard Zane Beadles have potential to make a jump for next season, but none of the teams rank Walton or Beadles as long-term starters. The two rookies have started every game for the Broncos.

Read more: Talent-deprived Broncos facing major makeover - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16978932#ixzz19kuhFAZL

Walton was the second center taken in the entire draft. How about these front office people give the kid a little time before they go making bold predictions?

Boomhauer
01-01-2011, 12:39 AM
Walton was the second center taken in the entire draft. How about these front office people give the kid a little time before they go making bold predictions?

I agree with the idea Walton could make a jump next season. He seems to have all the abilities, just isn't consitent, let alone dominant, yet. Beadles is another story. Big guy off the snap with the quickness to pull well, but very poor feet and balance. He's a liability in protection and can't engage when he does pull. ie: On Tebow's running TD against Houston, Tebow probably reversed because of Beadles' embaressing block ... or should I say stumble.

snowspot66
01-01-2011, 12:47 AM
I agree with the idea Walton could make a jump next season. He seems to have all the abilities, just isn't consitent, let alone dominant, yet. Beadles is another story. Big guy off the snap with the quickness to pull well, but very poor feet and balance. He's a liability in protection and can't engage when he does pull. ie: On Tebow's running TD against Houston, Tebow probably reversed because of Beadles' embaressing block ... or should I say stumble.

I think a big part of the problem is coaching. Who the hell do we even have "coaching" these guys?

Cito Pelon
01-01-2011, 02:06 AM
"It is always darkest before the dawn."

There is some potential with the 2010 draftees.

maher_tyler
01-01-2011, 07:21 AM
Brandon Loyd?? Thomas??

TonyR
01-01-2011, 08:56 AM
Brandon Loyd?? Thomas??

The next tier down is that of a solid starter, a capable player who can be productive. None of those surveyed gave the Broncos more than 12 players on this level, far fewer than a playoff hopeful. This list includes quarterback Kyle Orton; wide receivers Eddie Royal, Demaryius Thomas and Brandon Lloyd; linebacker D.J. Williams; nose tackle Jamal Williams; cornerback Andre Goodman; and tight end Daniel Graham.

Read more: Talent-deprived Broncos facing major makeover - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16978932#ixzz19nsfImvn

LonghornBronco
01-01-2011, 09:38 AM
Well obviously some people consider Lloyd Pro Bowl level...

Hamrob
01-01-2011, 10:00 AM
I think they put too much into what they believe to be talent and what is not. Both Walton and Beadles were in Mayocks top 5 for their positions...and last year was a deep draft. Everyone hate's Tebow...but, he just happened to be perhaps the best college football player of all time. Where do you think these idiots would have placed Ed McCaffery and Rod Smith?

Personally, I don't buy this crap...that it will take us years to turn this around.

Offensively: I think our offense is rich with talent...we need to improver our stable of RB's, draft a pass catching TE and allow our Oline to play together for another offseason. That can be achieved in 1 offseason!

Defensively: I think we can bring in a couple free agents to go with 4-5 rookies and the guys we currently have (DJ, Mays, Ayers, Mcbath, Bruton, Cox, Doom, Vickerson etc.). We should resign Champ to a 3yr deal. And ensure that 2-3 of those rookies can contribute right away. If we do this, this defense will go from last in the NFL to 10-15 in the NFL.

Special Teams: This area was not bad this year and should be even better next year.

So, with a top 10 offense, a much improved defense and quality special teams. I really feel we can challenge for the division and the playoffs next year. Sure, a couple years should make us even better...but, we can get back into this next year if we work hard at achieving it the right way. Screw all these "Other Teams" personnel evaluators!!!

strafen
01-01-2011, 10:05 AM
But tsiguy told me that there was plenty of talent on this team???

And that we were signing studs left and right! Ha!

19Morton77
01-01-2011, 10:27 AM
But tsiguy told me that there was plenty of talent on this team???

Well, thanks to McDaniels, we are totally stacked!

Broncoman13
01-01-2011, 10:32 AM
I think they put too much into what they believe to be talent and what is not. Both Walton and Beadles were in Mayocks top 5 for their positions...and last year was a deep draft. Everyone hate's Tebow...but, he just happened to be perhaps the best college football player of all time. Where do you think these idiots would have placed Ed McCaffery and Rod Smith?

Personally, I don't buy this crap...that it will take us years to turn this around.

Offensively: I think our offense is rich with talent...we need to improver our stable of RB's, draft a pass catching TE and allow our Oline to play together for another offseason. That can be achieved in 1 offseason!

Defensively: I think we can bring in a couple free agents to go with 4-5 rookies and the guys we currently have (DJ, Mays, Ayers, Mcbath, Bruton, Cox, Doom, Vickerson etc.). We should resign Champ to a 3yr deal. And ensure that 2-3 of those rookies can contribute right away. If we do this, this defense will go from last in the NFL to 10-15 in the NFL.

Special Teams: This area was not bad this year and should be even better next year.

So, with a top 10 offense, a much improved defense and quality special teams. I really feel we can challenge for the division and the playoffs next year. Sure, a couple years should make us even better...but, we can get back into this next year if we work hard at achieving it the right way. Screw all these "Other Teams" personnel evaluators!!!


Mmmkay. And how exactly do you "ensure" rookies contribute?

Hamrob
01-01-2011, 10:37 AM
Mmmkay. And how exactly do you "ensure" rookies contribute?You draft studs and you plug them in! We should be able to get at least 2 of those guys in this draft.

On another note:

Here's an article on Walton and Beadles:



http://www.dailycamera.com/broncos-nfl/ci_16985555?source=rss

Broncoman13
01-01-2011, 10:53 AM
Still a crapshoot Hamrob. You never know how a rookie is going to perform at the next level. Aaron Curry was considered a can't miss prospect and would be a plug and play guy from day one... he struggled. Just over 50 tackles from the #4 overall pick and a guy that most considered the "safest" can't miss prospect.

The list of Defensive Lineman that couldn't come in and contribute as rookies is long as well. I mean, look at Dwayne Robertson.

rovolution
01-01-2011, 11:06 AM
Walton was the second center taken in the entire draft. How about these front office people give the kid a little time before they go making bold predictions?



Pro Football Focus has him ranked as the 2nd worst center in the NFL

Hamrob
01-01-2011, 11:23 AM
Still a crapshoot Hamrob. You never know how a rookie is going to perform at the next level. Aaron Curry was considered a can't miss prospect and would be a plug and play guy from day one... he struggled. Just over 50 tackles from the #4 overall pick and a guy that most considered the "safest" can't miss prospect.

The list of Defensive Lineman that couldn't come in and contribute as rookies is long as well. I mean, look at Dwayne Robertson.I agree Broncoman13. It can be a crapshoot...but, I also thing coaching has alot to do with it. Our defense is our glaring problem...but, how many 3 and outs did our offense produce? Don't you think it's amazing that we didn't have a drive that lasted for more than 10 plays until Tebow got the call? I really think we are under valueing what a good running game can provide.

When I look back at this year...I really don't see much of a difference from the past 3yrs. We still have a top notch Offense (Lacking a feature back and a receiving TE)...Oline has vastly improved over the season. They're extremely young and talented overall.

We were missing our best defensive player...maybe best overall player in Doom and we still competed in most games. 4 of our losses were by 8 or few points and those games really could have went either way. Additionally, there were another 3-4 that were two-touchdown games that we hung in there for most of the game. There were really only 3 games where we got it handed to us (Oak, SD, AZ). All that and with such little talent?

Look we are a 4-5 win football team. But, for the most part we are a competetive team.

I really wonder...how much of a factor...poor coaching has been to this team? And by that, I don't mean...not knowing the x's and o's (McD), but how well were we at game planning and motivating players to perform on Sunday's?

If we can:


Improve the Run Game (Oline/Tebow)
Improve the pass Rush (Doom)
Improve the run defense (Draft)
Find a pass catching TE (Free agent/Draft)
Hire the right Coaching Staff

Then, I can see us being a 10 win team next year. And, I really don't think we need to improve 100% in each of those areas. I think a little improvement in each area will make the whole 100% better.

I'm not saying we'll be a Superbowl contender...but, I think we can challenge the Charges, Cheifs & Raiders in our division.

Plus...our schedule is going to be pretty nice comparitively!

Beantown Bronco
01-01-2011, 11:25 AM
The list of Defensive Lineman that couldn't come in and contribute as rookies is long as well. I mean, look at Dwayne Robertson.

Bad example. He started all 16 games his rookie year.

Broncoman13
01-01-2011, 11:48 AM
Bad example. He started all 16 games his rookie year.

So had JD Walton... What was your point again?

I made the assumption that he meant solid contributions, not warm body in the line up contributions.

Hamrob
01-01-2011, 11:51 AM
Pro Football Focus has him ranked as the 2nd worst center in the NFLOf course, he's a rookie. How many other rookies are starting at center? Pouncey and who else?

Do you think that the Steeler's offense is as complicated as ours is? I don't.

What I've seen with Walton...is that he's looking pretty good right now and he's still learning.

Hamrob
01-01-2011, 11:55 AM
So had JD Walton... What was your point again?

I made the assumption that he meant solid contributions, not warm body in the line up contributions.First off, I think Center is probably the most difficult position to come in and play...next to QB.

And, yes, I do mean solid contributors...not pro bowl level....but starting and contributing. We need our 1st pick...be it, Peterson, Fairley, Dareus or whomever...to start immediately and contribute. We also need one of our 2nd's to do the same and the rest of our rookies to contribute in some fashion as well.

It's a crapshoot, no doubt...but, with any luck and a little coaching...it's certainly doable.

Beantown Bronco
01-01-2011, 11:59 AM
So had JD Walton... What was your point again?

I made the assumption that he meant solid contributions, not warm body in the line up contributions.

By definition he contributed and did fine until they switched to the 3-4 and neutered him. He was made for the 4-3.

Sorry, but I just found it funny that you had literally HUNDREDS of names of well known or familiar Dlinemen to choose from who LITERALLY did next to nothing or nothing at all for their teams the first year or two (like say a Bertrand Berry or Justin Tuck) and instead you chose to go with a guy who actually started and contributed his entire rookie year. You may not have liked what he did or believed it lived up to what a rookie first rounder should do, but to say he didn't contribute is factually inaccurate.

Popps
01-01-2011, 12:10 PM
I think this team will show to have a lot more talent than people are giving us credit for going forward. There are a lot of young, potential contributors on this team. Certainly we're in need of a talent infusion on defense, but we're not totally bare there, either.

It's amazing the difference a few players can make. Should be interesting.

Broncoman13
01-01-2011, 02:11 PM
By definition he contributed and did fine until they switched to the 3-4 and neutered him. He was made for the 4-3.

Sorry, but I just found it funny that you had literally HUNDREDS of names of well known or familiar Dlinemen to choose from who LITERALLY did next to nothing or nothing at all for their teams the first year or two (like say a Bertrand Berry or Justin Tuck) and instead you chose to go with a guy who actually started and contributed his entire rookie year. You may not have liked what he did or believed it lived up to what a rookie first rounder should do, but to say he didn't contribute is factually inaccurate.

Bert Berry and Justin Tuck weren't picked in the top 4 or 5 spots of the draft. My point is pretty simple, you can't seem to understand it though. No use trying to explain to you that I don't consider a player that is drafted in the top 5 that produces 1.5 sacks as a solid contributor.

Whatever floats your boat bro. You can hope for the Broncos to get the next Dwayne Robertson... sounds foolish to me though.

btw, he was more productive in the 3-4 than he was in the 4-3.

Tombstone RJ
01-01-2011, 02:17 PM
Talent-deprived Broncos facing major makeover



By Jeff Legwold
The Denver Post
Posted: 12/31/2010 01:00:00 AM MST


The logo on their helmets is an orange-maned horse, but the Broncos might as well slap a big orange question mark in its place.

"Nobody knows who's going to be here, who's going to be making the decisions, who stays, who goes," Broncos cornerback Champ Bailey said. "Nobody knows what kind of team this will be."

The first steps will be taken next week, when the team's assistant coaches are expected to be apprised of their futures and Hall of Fame quarterback John Elway joins the team in a front-office position. Evaluations of Broncos players hint at the second total makeover of the team since Josh McDaniels arrived in 2008.

The Denver Post contacted personnel executives from eight NFL teams to determine how they rank Denver personnel and how much work they believe the Broncos have in front of them in a multiyear rebuilding job.

It is something Broncos chief operating officer Joe Ellis alluded to when he said: "We know we have work to do."

Those personnel executives see an aging, thin roster facing a large talent deficit. Some of it is because of the number of moves McDaniels and the team's personnel department made with the more than three dozen players who were brought in or sent packing in his 22 months on the job.

Of the 53 players on the Broncos' roster, 40 arrived in the last two seasons. That's 74 percent of the roster, and there are another five players on injured reserve who were brought in by the team since the start of 2009.

The personnel execs also say that when the Broncos, under McDaniels, traded away players such as Jay Cutler, Peyton Hillis, Brandon Marshall and Alphonso Smith, they didn't get comparably ranked talent in return.

Teams, and some respected longtime talent consultants such as Mike Giddings, use a color-coding system to rank players. Often, a blue rating represents the elite at a position. Two teams said Bailey was the only Broncos player with such a rating. The other six said the Broncos do not have a "blue" player. On average, a successful playoff team will have three or more "blue" players.

The next level down is Pro Bowl level. The consensus was that Bailey, guard Chris Kuper, outside linebacker Elvis Du- mervil and left tackle Ryan Clady were the only Broncos on this tier.

All four of those players are holdovers from Mike Shana- han's tenure. Several teams said Clady did not quite play to that level this season because of offseason knee surgery, but they expect him to improve with another offseason to improve his leg strength.

The next tier down is that of a solid starter, a capable player who can be productive. None of those surveyed gave the Broncos more than 12 players on this





Read more: Talent-deprived Broncos facing major makeover - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16978932#ixzz19kbEpE4F
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

This is misleading. The Broncos are not that devoid of talent. Rating D. Thomas as a mid level back up talent is dubious at best. As for the offensive line guys, I'm betting much of their problem is based on coaching, not talent.

Beantown Bronco
01-01-2011, 05:33 PM
Bert Berry and Justin Tuck weren't picked in the top 4 or 5 spots of the draft. My point is pretty simple, you can't seem to understand it though. No use trying to explain to you that I don't consider a player that is drafted in the top 5 that produces 1.5 sacks as a solid contributor.

Nice add of the word "solid" when it wasn't there before. Cute.

No use trying to explain to you the foolishness of grading a rookie nose tackle solely on sack numbers.