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Jesterhole
12-30-2010, 07:10 AM
Broncos wide receiver Brandon Lloyd is a Josh McDaniels guy. In an interview with 104.3 The Fan in Denver, he said he loved “McDaniels to death” and that he’s a “hell of a coach.”

Lloyd was asked if he thinks McDaniels might still be around if he went to Tim Tebow at quarterback before he was fired.

“I think so because that was the pick that everybody was betting the house on and if that would have materialized early in a productive offensive manner where we could throw, we could run, he could throw, he could run, and then maybe if we didn’t win but we were close in games and hovering around .500 or something, I think he still woulda been here.”


More at the link:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/12/29/brandon-lloyd-mcdaniels-may-still-be-coach-if-he-went-to-tim-tebow/

supermanhr9
12-30-2010, 07:16 AM
agree 100%. I bet McD goes after B Lloyd.

I also agree that McD is a hell of a coach,,, just maybe not a head coach yet.

Requiem
12-30-2010, 07:17 AM
Pretty sure Lloyd is with us for another year even if he doesn't get a contract redone.

jhns
12-30-2010, 07:18 AM
I agree with him. I don't even think we would have had to be around .500 like he said. There are three different moves that each could have been handled differently to save McDaniels. If he didn't trade Cutler, he would be here. If he didn't run off Nolan, he would be here. If he would have played Tebow at any time, he would still be here. Any one of these would have helped him keep his job.

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 07:25 AM
Well, duh.

1. He probably would still be with us if we were hovering at .500 regardless of the QB.

2. Yeah, Kyle Orton killed McDaniels. No ****. Btw, did anyone start the "Kyle Orton is a budding coach killer" thread?

Jesterhole
12-30-2010, 07:31 AM
Even those of us that hated McDaniels agreed he is a good coach. Just not ready to run the show, and for sure not ready to be a GM/coach. But that is more Bowlen's fault than Josh's.

In any case, so long, thanks for the all fish!

worm
12-30-2010, 07:33 AM
I would love him to death too if he helped resurrect my career and handed me a winning lottery ticket.

If team wins matter...then maybe you have a less rosy opinion.

Dagmar
12-30-2010, 07:52 AM
Well, duh.

1. He probably would still be with us if we were hovering at .500 regardless of the QB.

2. Yeah, Kyle Orton killed McDaniels. No ****. Btw, did anyone start the "Kyle Orton is a budding coach killer" thread?

Are you still bitter about Cutler?? Hilarious! Hilarious!

:giggle: :giggle:




:kiss:

bronco militia
12-30-2010, 08:08 AM
I don't agree....orton was mostly playing well enough to keep Tebow on the bench

IMO, if had used draft picks to fix the defense instead of replacing the players he traded, he'd still be here

Dr. Broncenstein
12-30-2010, 08:10 AM
If McDaniels would have used Tebow as a short-yardage / red zone specialist, he probably would still be here. You know... instead of calling such an idea ridiculous, eventually using it with 100% success, and predictably abandoning it after proving successful.

Gort
12-30-2010, 08:13 AM
if McD had gone to Bowlen directly the same afternoon he found out about the 49ers walkthrough tape (before ever holding a closed door coaches only meeting) and explained EXACTLY what had happened, what steps he had taken to rectify the situation, and asked Bowlen how he wanted the problem handled, he'd still be here.

it's the secretive BS that went on once the problem was discovered that got him fired. he learned all the secretive BS from Belichick.

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 08:15 AM
Are you still bitter about Cutler?? Hilarious! Hilarious!

:giggle: :giggle:

:kiss:

Define "bitter"?

Are we back on the right track behind Tebow and do I like him as a person exponentially more than Jay Cutler? Absolutely.

Would Josh not only still have a job with Cutler under center, Nolan calling the defense and another quality defender or two? Definitely, and the Denver Broncos would be significantly further ahead of where they are today.

So if "honest" = "bitter" then sure. I'm "bitter".

oubronco
12-30-2010, 08:17 AM
McD would probably still be here if it wasn't for spygate 2

Kaylore
12-30-2010, 08:45 AM
McD would still be here if he wasn't fired.

BroncosMT
12-30-2010, 09:13 AM
McD would probably still be here if it wasn't for spygate 2

I would tend to agree with this....I think this really hurt Bowlen and how he was viewed as he didn't want any part of that here. That was the straw IMO. I think McD would have lasted the year at least if not for that

SonOfLe-loLang
12-30-2010, 09:18 AM
If McDaniels would have used Tebow as a short-yardage / red zone specialist, he probably would still be here. You know... instead of calling such an idea ridiculous, eventually using it with 100% success, and predictably abandoning it after proving successful.

I dont recall him abandoning it at all. I do recall us not seeing the red zone much period though. Well 5 yards to go

bowtown
12-30-2010, 09:22 AM
McD would still be here if he wasn't fired.

Hmmmm... not sure about this one. You may be right or may be wrong. Guess we'll never know.

Garcia Bronco
12-30-2010, 09:26 AM
what got him ****canned was the video tape.

Los Broncos
12-30-2010, 09:26 AM
I think the spygate thing did him in, so starting Tebow wouldn't have mattered.

Bowlen doesn't like to be absolute embarrass.

Beantown Bronco
12-30-2010, 09:30 AM
SpyGate was a factor, but not the final straw. Losing three games in a row after SpyGate, along with the escalating fan uproar, are what finally did him in.

Pony Boy
12-30-2010, 09:33 AM
I dont recall him abandoning it at all. I do recall us not seeing the red zone much period though. Well 5 yards to go

I think what Doc is saying is it should of been automatic when we approached the red zone to bring the Tebow package in the game, almost like bringing the field goal unit on the field on 4th down. In other words don't wait till Orton screws the pooch and then bring Tebow in.

Pony Boy
12-30-2010, 09:36 AM
Lloyd wouldn't be in the pro bowl if Tebow started more games (and that't not a slam on Lloyd).

SonOfLe-loLang
12-30-2010, 09:47 AM
What got McD fired was a **** record. If the Broncos were in first place, the spygate BS wouldnt have mattered.

ColoradoDarin
12-30-2010, 09:50 AM
McDaniels got fired because he didn't bring in any competition at the punter spot when Colquitt had it locked up.

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 09:53 AM
Lloyd wouldn't be in the pro bowl if Tebow started more games (and that't not a slam on Lloyd).

Lloyd ypg with Orton: 84.5

Lloyd ypg with Tebow: 95

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 09:54 AM
Lloyd ypg with Orton: 84.5

Lloyd ypg with Tebow: 95

^ That includes two 169 yard (losing efforts) with Kyle.

Gcver2ver3
12-30-2010, 09:54 AM
i went to PFT and read some of Brandon's other remarks...

their kind of interseting to me...



“It’s not Tebow’s place to say anything to the team because he’s still a rookie,” Lloyd said via SportsRadioInterviews.com. “He’s a rookie, we are the veterans on the team, and our veterans speak. Brian Dawkins speaks . . . What I find funny about the whole Tebow thing is how well his passion has translated to the fans. We feel it as the players, but at the same time, he’s just another player to us. He’s not how the public views him and not how you guys view him as being the instant leader. . . . There’s no animosity towards his popularity. “


i could be reading too much into this, but with him saying there isnt animosity towards his popularity, is he actually showing that maybe there is...at least a little?...

i am a big Lloyd supporter, but i don't quite know how i feel about him saying Tebow isn't an instant leader because he's a rook...in the film of Tebow mic'd up, the coaches are telling Tebow to lead us...so is he the leader or not?...

personally i think Tebow IS an instant leader by how he carries himself and by how he inspires the team...i don't believe his age or years in the league to overshadow that...

perhaps i'm wrong but it looks to me like there is just a tad bit of jealousy in Lloyd's statement...maybe jealousy is too strong of a word though...

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-30-2010, 09:57 AM
Lloyd ypg with Orton: 84.5

Lloyd ypg with Tebow: 95

No difference in that sample size though.

Hilarious!

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 10:03 AM
No difference in that sample size though.

Hilarious!

So your point is "sample size" when Lloyd's production has actually increased over 10% with a rookie "project" under center and an interim head coach? Speaks volumes about KO and Josh then...

Hamrob
12-30-2010, 10:05 AM
i went to PFT and read some of Brandon's other remarks...

their kind of interseting to me...



i could be reading too much into this, but with him saying there isnt animosity towards his popularity, is he actually showing that maybe there is...at least a little?...

i am a big Lloyd supporter, but i don't quite know how i feel about him saying Tebow isn't an instant leader because he's a rook...in the film of Tebow mic'd up, the coaches are telling Tebow to lead us...so is he the leader or not?...

personally i think Tebow IS an instant leader by how he carries himself and by how he inspires the team...i don't believe his age or years in the league to overshadow that...

perhaps i'm wrong but it looks to me like there is just a tad bit of jealousy in Lloyd's statement...maybe jealousy is too strong of a word though...Yeah, I mentioned this in another thread. It makes me think that Lloyd amongst others are still extremely loyal to Kyle Orton.

Orton was on his way to records, before he was benched, so that we (the fans) could see what we have in Tebow.

Hopefully Lloyd can get on board...because I don't think he wants to be the guy measuring his worth against that of Tebow. He had a great year and is a talented receiver....but, hey...I'd kind of like to see what Thomas and Decker can do next year anyway. So, if he wants to continue making stupid comments like the ones above...let him run his mouth.

And, by the way, he ought to listen to Champ and Dawkins speak about Tebow...

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-30-2010, 10:07 AM
So your point is "sample size" when Lloyd's production has actually increased over 10% with a rookie "project" under center and an interim head coach? Speaks volumes about KO and Josh then...

Two games.

Versus 13.

The point is that these things tend to average out over time. I don't think, on an entire season's timeline, Lloyd's production will magically increase by 10% because Tebow is his QB. If it does, that's fine, but you're comparing two different things.

bowtown
12-30-2010, 10:09 AM
Anyone know if Champ or Dawkins have weighed in on Tebow yet?

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 10:10 AM
Two games.

Versus 13.

The point is that these things tend to average out over time. I don't think, on an entire season's timeline, Lloyd's production will magically increase by 10% because Tebow is his QB. If it does, that's fine, but you're comparing two different things.

We're absolutely comparing two different things.

Tebow has the deck stacked against him and Kyle didn't. Wouldn't you agree?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-30-2010, 10:18 AM
We're absolutely comparing two different things.

Tebow has the deck stacked against him and Kyle didn't. Wouldn't you agree?

Not really, no. We haven't been able to run the ball all season, and with Orton that is a problem. Teams have been selling out against the pass. Orton still put up remarkable numbers in spite of this.

I'm not sure why Tebow had the deck stacked against him. He's a first round draft pick. Favorite son of everyone in Denver. A good arm, and the ability to make plays with his legs. The number of doubters is smaller than the number of true believers.

Contrast that with Orton. A fourth-round afterthought. Resented since he walked in the door of Dove Valley by a large portion of fans. An underrated arm, but gets ripped for his arm strength. Doesn't make plays with his feet, making him a sitting duck behind a questionable offensive line. The number of doubters is still much greater than the number of supporters.

I don't think either one really has a "me against the world" kind of outlook, and I certainly wouldn't think that Tebow had the deck stacked against him.

Perhaps I don't understand what you're getting at. Kindly explain if I've missed the point.

BroncoInferno
12-30-2010, 10:23 AM
We're absolutely comparing two different things.

Tebow has the deck stacked against him and Kyle didn't. Wouldn't you agree?

How does Tebow have the deck stacked against him? We were already out of the playoff picture when he took over, so there was little pressure on to him to actually win games, he just needed to avoid being a total disaster. I mean, there were plenty on this very board who were saying that the ideal scenario would be for Tebow to play well, but for us to lose to maintain a high draft positioning. Anything beyond that was gravy. And if he played bad, well, he's got the excuse of being a rookie playing for a team in disarray. No, I don't think he had the deck stacked aganist him at all compared to Kyle, who played in meaningful games with the pressue to win and had a fanbase ready to throw him under the bus despite solid play in favor of the hot-shot rookie.

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 10:31 AM
How does Tebow have the deck stacked against him? We were already out of the playoff picture when he took over, so there was little pressure on to him to actually win games, he just needed to avoid being a total disaster. I mean, there were plenty on this very board who were saying that the ideal scenario would be for Tebow to play well, but for us to lose to maintain a high draft positioning. Anything beyond that was gravy. And if he played bad, well, he's got the excuse of being a rookie playing for a team in disarray. No, I don't think he had the deck stacked aganist him at all compared to Kyle, who played in meaningful games with the pressue to win and had a fanbase ready to throw him under the bus despite solid play in favor of the hot-shot rookie.

Not really, no. We haven't been able to run the ball all season, and with Orton that is a problem. Teams have been selling out against the pass. Orton still put up remarkable numbers in spite of this.

I'm not sure why Tebow had the deck stacked against him. He's a first round draft pick. Favorite son of everyone in Denver. A good arm, and the ability to make plays with his legs. The number of doubters is smaller than the number of true believers.

Contrast that with Orton. A fourth-round afterthought. Resented since he walked in the door of Dove Valley by a large portion of fans. An underrated arm, but gets ripped for his arm strength. Doesn't make plays with his feet, making him a sitting duck behind a questionable offensive line. The number of doubters is still much greater than the number of supporters.

I don't think either one really has a "me against the world" kind of outlook, and I certainly wouldn't think that Tebow had the deck stacked against him.

Perhaps I don't understand what you're getting at. Kindly explain if I've missed the point.

How does Tebow have the deck stacked against him?!?!?!?

Let's see...

No actual headcoach?

McCoy calling his plays?

Rookie year vs 2nd year in system?

Knowshon injured both his games?

First game was on the road in one of the most hostile environments in pro sports against one of the NFLs top defenses?

You guys really can't see this?

Hilarious!

BroncoInferno
12-30-2010, 10:40 AM
How does Tebow have the deck stacked against him?!?!?!?

Let's see...

No actual headcoach?

McCoy calling his plays?

Rookie year vs 2nd year in system?

Knowshon injured both his games?

First game was on the road in one of the most hostile environments in pro sports against one of the NFLs top defenses?

You guys really can't see this?

Hilarious!

I didn't say he had it easy. But you made the comparison to Kyle Orton. Yes, in comparison to Orton, Tebow had it easy:

1) Actually played in meaningful games with pressue to win. Tebow just need to play well and not look horrible. If he did that and we lost, great, we maintain our high draft positioning.

2) Had a fan base that would blame him for losses in games despite generally good play and having no running game or defense to support him.

3) Had a 1st round QB sitting behind him to fend off.

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 10:47 AM
I didn't say he had it easy. But you made the comparison to Kyle Orton. Yes, in comparison to Orton, Tebow had it easy:

1) Actually played in meaningful games with pressue to win. Tebow just need to play well and not look horrible. If he did that and we lost, great, we maintain our high draft positioning.

2) Had a fan base that would blame him for losses in games despite generally good play and having no running game or defense to support him.

3) Had a 1st round QB sitting behind him to fend off.

We've been out of meaningful games for a while, bro. Kyle choked all of those too.

I thought he didn't care about fan perception and just needed wins? I thought he was a competitor?

By the way, in regards to your extremely weak argument... what kind of pressure do you think Tebow was under considering all of the NFL prognosticators called him a project, an H back, a TE, a FB, etc. What kind of pressure do you think Tebow was under when even his preseason games got national attention so people could put his throwing motion and reads under the microscope?

But, yeah, I'm so sorry Kyle had to play and lose "meaningful games" in September while the whole country watched Tebow to see if he can play QB in the NFL.

I repeat:

How does Tebow have the deck stacked against him?!?!?!?

Let's see...

No actual headcoach?

McCoy calling his plays?

Rookie year vs 2nd year in system?

Knowshon injured both his games?

First game was on the road in one of the most hostile environments in pro sports against one of the NFLs top defenses?

That's a stacked decked in comparison BY DEFINITION.

Quoydogs
12-30-2010, 10:51 AM
McD would still be here if he wasn't fired.

This Hilarious!

Gcver2ver3
12-30-2010, 11:09 AM
Yeah, I mentioned this in another thread. It makes me think that Lloyd amongst others are still extremely loyal to Kyle Orton.

Orton was on his way to records, before he was benched, so that we (the fans) could see what we have in Tebow.

Hopefully Lloyd can get on board...because I don't think he wants to be the guy measuring his worth against that of Tebow. He had a great year and is a talented receiver....but, hey...I'd kind of like to see what Thomas and Decker can do next year anyway. So, if he wants to continue making stupid comments like the ones above...let him run his mouth.

And, by the way, he ought to listen to Champ and Dawkins speak about Tebow...

excellent insight, and i agree wholeheartedly....

listopencil
12-30-2010, 12:13 PM
Well, duh.

1. He probably would still be with us if we were hovering at .500 regardless of the QB.

2. Yeah, Kyle Orton killed McDaniels. No ****. Btw, did anyone start the "Kyle Orton is a budding coach killer" thread?

Really? Kyle Orton killed McD? Is that your final answer?

SoCalBronco
12-30-2010, 01:31 PM
Are you still bitter about Cutler?? Hilarious! Hilarious!

:giggle: :giggle:




:kiss:

Why would he be bitter? He's right. Rev ended up being right. Jay Cutler is a complete stud. He's had (another) terrific season, he won a division title and will be going to the postseason (which people here said was never going to happen), dramatically cut down on his interceptions while keeping his TD's high and has repeatedly come up big in big games. He's a certified stud. Go Jay!

SoCalBronco
12-30-2010, 01:33 PM
How does Tebow have the deck stacked against him?!?!?!?

Let's see...

No actual headcoach?

McCoy calling his plays?

Rookie year vs 2nd year in system?

Knowshon injured both his games?

First game was on the road in one of the most hostile environments in pro sports against one of the NFLs top defenses?

You guys really can't see this?

Hilarious!

Just the "McCoy calling his plays" part alone would have made your argument, everything else is just gravy.

Beantown Bronco
12-30-2010, 01:37 PM
Just the "McCoy calling his plays" part alone would have made your argument, everything else is just gravy.

To be fair, it became pretty apparent after watching the "Tebow-mic'd up" clip that McCoy stopped calling the plays when it mattered and simply let Tebow run the show. :)

Drek
12-30-2010, 01:48 PM
Why would he be bitter? He's right. Rev ended up being right. Jay Cutler is a complete stud. He's had (another) terrific season, he won a division title and will be going to the postseason (which people here said was never going to happen), dramatically cut down on his interceptions while keeping his TD's high and has repeatedly come up big in big games. He's a certified stud. Go Jay!

Really?

Because I see a QB who's been turned into Rex Grossman 2.0. Don't shoot the defense and special teams in the foot and we'll win is how he's been handled this year. Having guys like Hester and Forte turn dump off passes into monster gains does definitely help the numbers though.

So far all I see out of Cutler is what I've expected to see out of him. A guy who still hasn't matured beyond his '08 season. Still makes a lot of the same mistakes. Give him a great defense, great special teams, and a good running game and he'll win. But you can say the same for a LOT of QBs in the NFL.

Playing in a division that has fallen to pieces sure didn't hurt either.


i am a big Lloyd supporter, but i don't quite know how i feel about him saying Tebow isn't an instant leader because he's a rook...in the film of Tebow mic'd up, the coaches are telling Tebow to lead us...so is he the leader or not?...

personally i think Tebow IS an instant leader by how he carries himself and by how he inspires the team...i don't believe his age or years in the league to overshadow that....

It sounds like Lloyd is just saying he isn't the leader who puts guys in their place when needed and the like. He's not the vocal leader of the locker room.

That doesn't mean his attitude and work on the field isn't a big leadership boost for the club. I'm sure it is. More than anything the kind of leader this team needs is someone who makes plays happen close and late. That is Tebow. Him doing things like he did against Houston, escaping a sack and running for a first down, escaping a sack to throw the ball away instead of lose yardage, rolling out and running in a TD.

All of that motivates a team on both sides of the ball. The defense knows that as long as they keep the offense in the game good things will happen. The other offensive players know that even if a play isn't working out it doesn't mean they're screwed, play to the whistle and Tebow might just pull something off.

bowtown
12-30-2010, 01:52 PM
http://cdn.ksk.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/cutler-sack7.jpg

Stud.

Vegas_Bronco
12-30-2010, 01:53 PM
If it weren't for mcd, crisco would not exist but coconut oil would reign. I love 'if then' threads...they are truly space for factual data and emotion meet.

TonyR
12-30-2010, 01:54 PM
Jay Cutler is a complete stud. He's had (another) terrific season, he won a division title and will be going to the postseason (which people here said was never going to happen), dramatically cut down on his interceptions while keeping his TD's high and has repeatedly come up big in big games. He's a certified stud.

Just out of curiousity, how does one qualify for "complete stud" status? Because Jay Cutler is not a top 10 NFL QB. He's not top 10 in any major statistic. He's matured and improved, he's had a nice year, and perhaps most importantly his team has won (largely because his team has allowed the 4th fewest point in the league). But if you measure "complete stud" by being a top 10 QB he's not there yet. Maybe some day.

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 01:59 PM
Just out of curiousity, how does one qualify for "complete stud" status? Because Jay Cutler is not a top 10 NFL QB. He's not top 10 in any major statistic. He's matured and improved, he's had a nice year, and perhaps most importantly his team has won (largely because his team has allowed the 4th fewest point in the league). But if you measure "complete stud" by being a top 10 QB he's not there yet. Maybe some day.

Serious, non-inflamatory question: How strong a team do you feel they'll be next year if they add a strong OL and receiver or two in the off-season?

BroncoInferno
12-30-2010, 01:59 PM
Why would he be bitter? He's right. Rev ended up being right. Jay Cutler is a complete stud. He's had (another) terrific season, he won a division title and will be going to the postseason (which people here said was never going to happen), dramatically cut down on his interceptions while keeping his TD's high and has repeatedly come up big in big games. He's a certified stud. Go Jay!

Um, no. Chicage had to turn him into a game-manager in order to keep him from throwing games away like he did last season. He is riding the coattails of the Bears D and special teams this season. He's pretty good, but any objective person would correctly conclude that he is not in the upper echleon of NFL QBs.

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 02:04 PM
Just out of curiousity, how does one qualify for "complete stud" status? Because Jay Cutler is not a top 10 NFL QB. He's not top 10 in any major statistic. He's matured and improved, he's had a nice year, and perhaps most importantly his team has won (largely because his team has allowed the 4th fewest point in the league). But if you measure "complete stud" by being a top 10 QB he's not there yet. Maybe some day.

Also, #4 in 1st %, #5 in ypa, and JUST outside the top 10 in multiple other categories only due to missing to 1.5 games thanks to the protection issues landing him with a concussion.

Drek
12-30-2010, 02:05 PM
Serious, non-inflamatory question: How strong a team do you feel they'll be next year if they add a strong OL and receiver or two in the off-season?

I think they'll be a strong team within what will likely be a rebounding powerful division. Its unlikely Green Bay gets raped with injuries again next year and Detroit given another off-season and a healthy Stafford could be very dangerous. Hell, the Vikings are literally just a QB away from being a powerhouse again.

But that strength lies more with the defense, special teams, and game breakers they've surrounded Cutler with. He's having an almost identical season to his first year starting in '07 statistically. He shows a lot of those same flaws this year as well. He hasn't progressed to an elite level by any stretch. He's just found a comfort level similar to the '07 and '08 seasons with a much better overall team around him.

The Bears once carried Rex Grossman to the Super Bowl on defense and special teams.

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 02:09 PM
Cutler since Thanksgiving when the best teams are turning it on for the post season race:

122 attempts, 74 completions, 1042 yards, 11 TDs, 4 INTs, 105 QB rating, 4 wins, 1 loss

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/511/785/106887341_display_image.jpg?1290063901

Stud

BroncoInferno
12-30-2010, 02:12 PM
We've been out of meaningful games for a while, bro. Kyle choked all of those too.

I thought he didn't care about fan perception and just needed wins? I thought he was a competitor?

By the way, in regards to your extremely weak argument... what kind of pressure do you think Tebow was under considering all of the NFL prognosticators called him a project, an H back, a TE, a FB, etc. What kind of pressure do you think Tebow was under when even his preseason games got national attention so people could put his throwing motion and reads under the microscope?

But, yeah, I'm so sorry Kyle had to play and lose "meaningful games" in September while the whole country watched Tebow to see if he can play QB in the NFL.

I repeat:

How does Tebow have the deck stacked against him?!?!?!?

Let's see...

No actual headcoach?

McCoy calling his plays?

Rookie year vs 2nd year in system?

Knowshon injured both his games?

First game was on the road in one of the most hostile environments in pro sports against one of the NFLs top defenses?

That's a stacked decked in comparison BY DEFINITION.

Wrong. Tebow had no pressue to win games like Orton, had lower expectations than Orton in terms of what the quality of his performance should be (the "rookie" excuse), and had the support of the fan base. Orton had folks like you blaming him for losses when any OBJECTIVE person would rightly have judged Orton's performances this season as, on the balance, very solid at worse and rightly pointed the finger at our putird defense and running game for our woes. But, no, it was always "Kyle sucks" even though that was false by any reasonable standard. In the meantime, Tebow makes two great throws and two great runs in the Oakland game and guys like you and footsteps are fellating him and chastising anyone with even the mildest of criticism. Hey, I like Tebow and I'm very optimistic about his future. But Kyle pretty much had the deck stacked against him from the moment he got here (people angry about the Cutler trade at the beginning and refusing to give him a fair shake or judge his performances objectively, then having a 1st round pick breathing down his neck). The argument that Tebow had the deck stacked against him more so than Orton is laughably weak.

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 02:13 PM
I think they'll be a strong team within what will likely be a rebounding powerful division. Its unlikely Green Bay gets raped with injuries again next year and Detroit given another off-season and a healthy Stafford could be very dangerous. Hell, the Vikings are literally just a QB away from being a powerhouse again.

But that strength lies more with the defense, special teams, and game breakers they've surrounded Cutler with. He's having an almost identical season to his first year starting in '07 statistically. He shows a lot of those same flaws this year as well. He hasn't progressed to an elite level by any stretch. He's just found a comfort level similar to the '07 and '08 seasons with a much better overall team around him.

The Bears once carried Rex Grossman to the Super Bowl on defense and special teams.

You briefly answered the question and then redirected the discussion to pure speculation and some intellectual fallacies. Yes, the Bears did once carry Rex Grossman to the superbowl on defense and special teams. That was a much better defense and special teams in a weaker NFC North and in a much weaker NFC.

See those are FACTS

Inkana7
12-30-2010, 02:14 PM
You briefly answered the question and then redirected the discussion to pure speculation and some intellectual fallacies. Yes, the Bears did once carry Rex Grossman to the superbowl on defense and special teams. That was a much better defense and special teams in a weaker NFC North and in a much weaker NFC.

See those are FACTS

Haha, really?

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 02:17 PM
Wrong. Tebow had no pressue to win games like Orton, had lower expectations than Orton in terms of what the quality of his performance should be (the "rookie" excuse), and had the support of the fan base. Orton had folks like you blaming him for losses when any OBJECTIVE person would rightly have judged Orton's performances this season as, on the balance, very solid at worse and rightly pointed the finger at our putird defense and running game for our woes. But, no, it was always "Kyle sucks" even though that was false by any reasonable standard. In the meantime, Tebow makes two great throws and two great runs in the Oakland game and guys like you and footsteps are fellating him and chastising anyone with even the mildest of criticism. Hey, I like Tebow and I'm very optimistic about his future. But Kyle pretty much had the deck stacked against him from the moment he got here (people angry about the Cutler trade at the beginning and refusing to give him a fair shake or judge his performances objectively, then having a 1st round pick breathing down his neck). The argument that Tebow had the deck stacked against him more so than Orton is laughably weak.

This is ridiculous. You literally have ZERO justification for saying Orton had it harder. I laid out multiple different points for you, and you can't refute any of them, so you just decide to turn it on the fan base and claim that's why he choked?

Really? The fans made Orton bad?

Did the fans give him such an abysmal third down rating? Because despite being a rookie, with a poor play caller, an interim head coach, and the sports world watching to see if he'll fail as an NFL QB, Tebow was FANTASTIC on 3rd down and kept drives alive.

Come back with some facts and we can talk. Until then, you should really re-examine your "argument".

SoCalBronco
12-30-2010, 02:18 PM
Cutler since Thanksgiving when the best teams are turning it on for the post season race:

122 attempts, 74 completions, 1042 yards, 11 TDs, 4 INTs, 105 QB rating, 4 wins, 1 loss

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/511/785/106887341_display_image.jpg?1290063901

Stud

I think people are just upset that he ended up being a great player. I understand the psychological aspect of it....it somehow makes us look worse and more importantly feel worse about ourselves when the guy that people hate is still throwing TD's, winning games, cutting down on INT's all the while with little offensive support, and we're 4-11. People are reduced to hiding behind photoshops and the like, but it would be more respectable if they just owned up. This kid is a beast and he'll always be a beast. Thank God we were able to recover from Bowlen's mistake and find ourselves another beast, I'm very grateful to Josh for that parting gift, at least he somewhat made up for his own **** ups in that area.

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 02:19 PM
Haha, really?

Yes. The next best NFC team that season was 10-6.

This season 2 other teams have already crested that total, with another poised to crack it and THREE more ready to tie it.

Also that season, the rest of the NFC North had a combined 17 wins. This season the rest of the NFC North has 20 wins with a week left to play.

Like I said, facts.

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 02:21 PM
I think people are just upset that he ended up being a great player. I understand the psychological aspect of it....it somehow makes us look worse and more importantly feel worse about ourselves when the guy that people hate is still throwing TD's, winning games, cutting down on INT's all the while with little offensive support, and we're 4-11. People are reduced to hiding behind photoshops and the like, but it would be more respectable if they just owned up. This kid is a beast and he'll always be a beast. Thank God we were able to recover from Bowlen's mistake and find ourselves another beast, I'm very grateful to Josh for that parting gift, at least he somewhat made up for his own **** ups in that area.

The part I don't understand is that Josh proved to be a failure and washed out in horrendous fashion within two years! It's crystal clear who the Denver Broncos villain is, especially after guys like Nolan, Turner, Dennison headed for the hills and we even have Xanders selling McD down the river now!

Yet Cutler still gets the wrap from some people?

More power to ya, I guess. We have Tebow and that should be celebrated, but we don't have to bemoan a former Bronco competing for a championship.

TonyR
12-30-2010, 02:22 PM
Serious, non-inflamatory question: How strong a team do you feel they'll be next year if they add a strong OL and receiver or two in the off-season?

Chicago is a good team now, and they'll be that much better. Cutler is a good QB, and if he continues to progress the way he has this year he may become a great one. I just don't think the "great" word applies to him yet. And I don't mean that as a criticism.

Gutless Drunk
12-30-2010, 02:23 PM
The real question is whether Matt Ryan is overrated. How can anyone make the Pro Bowl with a lower QBR than frickin' Cutler?


27807

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 02:26 PM
Chicago is a good team now, and they'll be that much better. Cutler is a good QB, and if he continues to progress the way he has this year he may become a great one. I just don't think the "great" word applies to him yet. And I don't mean that as a criticism.

It's okay. I was asking your opinion and your response was perfectly fair.

I believe I fully agree as I'd only term Manning, Brady and maybe Brees as great, and I'd also grudgingly place Rivers firmly above and MAYBE a couple others above him, at the moment.

He cracks my top 10 for certain, and you can see the steady progress in Mike Martz's system as the season has gone on.

Gutless Drunk
12-30-2010, 02:27 PM
and what the hell is this "Matty Ice" crap? In the 4th quarter within 7 points Matty Ice is completing 65.7% with 5 tds and 3 ints and 88.3 Rating.

Cutler is 62.5% with 5 tds and 2 ints and rating of 100.5.

"Cutty Ice"?

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 02:31 PM
and what the hell is this "Matty Ice" crap? In the 4th quarter within 7 points Matty Ice is completing 65.7% with 5 tds and 3 ints and 88.3 Rating.

Cutler is 62.5% with 5 tds and 2 ints and rating of 100.5.

"Cutty Ice"?

**** happens when you're balls deep in Kristin Cavallari.

:)

BroncoInferno
12-30-2010, 02:32 PM
This is ridiculous. You literally have ZERO justification for saying Orton had it harder. I laid out multiple different points for you, and you can't refute any of them, so you just decide to turn it on the fan base and claim that's why he choked?

Really? The fans made Orton bad?

Did the fans give him such an abysmal third down rating? Because despite being a rookie, with a poor play caller, an interim head coach, and the sports world watching to see if he'll fail as an NFL QB, Tebow was FANTASTIC on 3rd down and kept drives alive.

Come back with some facts and we can talk. Until then, you should really re-examine your "argument".

No, the fans didn't make Orton bad, because Orton was NOT a bad QB by any reasonable standard. Your drivel above pretty much proves my point, which is that Orton never got a fair shake from a lot of people. Also, the 3rd downs aren't really related to who had the deck stacked against them. Of course Orton was bad on 3rd downs. We couldn't run the ball and he is a statue in the pocket, so what did you expect to happen on 3rd and long? I was not arguing that Orton was an elite player (I don't think he is) or that Tebow does not have the potential to be elite himself (I think he clearly does)...that isn't the argument. And why would I argue with the points you made when I agree with most of them? My argument is not that he had it easy, just easy in comparison to Orton. And I'm right.

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 02:37 PM
No, the fans didn't make Orton bad, because Orton was NOT a bad QB by any reasonable standard. Your drivel above pretty much proves my point, which is that Orton never got a fair shake from a lot of people. Also, the 3rd downs aren't really related to who had the deck stacked against them. Of course Orton was bad on 3rd downs. We couldn't run the ball and he is a statue in the pocket, so what did you expect to happen on 3rd and long? I was not arguing that Orton was an elite player (I don't think he is) or that Tebow does not have the potential to be elite himself (I think he clearly does)...that isn't the argument. And why would I argue with the points you made when I agree with most of them? My argument is not that he had it easy, just easy in comparison to Orton. And I'm right.

So let me get this straight...

No actual headcoach,
McCoy calling his plays
Rookie year
Knowshon injured both his games
First game was on the road in one of the most hostile environments in pro sports against one of the NFLs top defenses
The entire sports media analyzing every millimeter of your throwing motion

Is easier than:

Being a veteran in your second year in the system
Josh McDaniels calling your plays and designing your gameplan
Fan pressure and a 1st round quarterback behind you on the depth chart


???????????

You really want to go with this?

TonyR
12-30-2010, 02:41 PM
Of course Orton was bad on 3rd downs. We couldn't run the ball and he is a statue in the pocket, so what did you expect to happen on 3rd and long?

That's actually a very fair, and very good, point. Orton isn't "clutch", and he'll never be "elite", but all things considered he did a pretty damn good job this year. Performed better than should be expected with no defense, a young/banged up O-line, no running game, no TE, and after losing a top 10 WR in the offseason.

BroncoInferno
12-30-2010, 02:46 PM
So let me get this straight...

No actual headcoach,
McCoy calling his plays
Rookie year
Knowshon injured both his games
First game was on the road in one of the most hostile environments in pro sports against one of the NFLs top defenses
The entire sports media analyzing every millimeter of your throwing motion

Is easier than:

Being a veteran in your second year in the system
Josh McDaniels calling your plays and designing your gameplan
Fan pressure and a 1st round quarterback behind you on the depth chart


???????????

You really want to go with this?

You're skimming my argument and exaggerating the merits of your own. No one expects much of a rookie QB taking over with an interim staff in place. Read posts on this board for proof...people were just hoping he wouldn't look like a total bust and give us some hope going forward. You're lying if you deny that. In the meantime, any performance of Orton's that wasn't completely flawless was proof that he "sucked." No matter how solid his production, folks like you stood by the "Kyle sucks" mantra. Nothing short of morphing into Peyton Manning would have won a lot of you over. But Tebow comes in and completes two downfield passes against Oakland and you're slobbering all over him. If you can't see the wild disproportion there, then there is no point trying to convince you otherwise.

BroncoInferno
12-30-2010, 02:47 PM
That's actually a very fair, and very good, point. Orton isn't "clutch", and he'll never be "elite", but all things considered he did a pretty damn good job this year. Performed better than should be expected with no defense, a young/banged up O-line, no running game, no TE, and after losing a top 10 WR in the offseason.

Exactly.

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 02:49 PM
That's actually a very fair, and very good, point. Orton isn't "clutch", and he'll never be "elite", but all things considered he did a pretty damn good job this year. Performed better than should be expected with no defense, a young/banged up O-line, no running game, no TE, and after losing a top 10 WR in the offseason.

...and how many misses did he have on 3rd down?

...and how many 3rd and longs did HE PUT HIMSELF INTO with delay of game penalties?

...and how many more on illegal formations?

...and why was Tim 6 of 11 on 3rd down (a whopping 80% in the 2nd half too)?

Drek
12-30-2010, 02:49 PM
You briefly answered the question and then redirected the discussion to pure speculation and some intellectual fallacies. Yes, the Bears did once carry Rex Grossman to the superbowl on defense and special teams. That was a much better defense and special teams in a weaker NFC North and in a much weaker NFC.

See those are FACTS

I'm not claiming a very brief breakdown of the division as fact, just mentioning it because it is of paramount importance to the strength of the Bears in 2011, which is a relative assessment.

However, you trying to pawn off the "NFC North and NFC were much weaker in '06" argument as fact is where we get into intellectual fallacy. Their NFC North rivals were two games better in '06 out of conference than they were this year and the NFC as a whole had one more team at or above .500 in '06 than they will this year. This for a Bears team that is finishing at least one game worse than the '06 squad, and if they lose to Green Bay will finish 2 games worse than that '06 squad.

Also, while the '06 team had a slightly better defense (3rd in pts/g and 5th in yrds/g) compared to 2010 (4th in pts/g and 10th in yrds/g) the '06 offense also was significantly better (2nd in pts/g and 15th in yrds/g, as opposed to 18th in pts/g and 30th in yds/g).

Kinda sad if an "elite" QB is leading the 18th best scoring offense and 30th best yardage offense despite having one of the best defenses and special teams in the entire NFL setting him up.

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 02:50 PM
You're skimming my argument and exaggerating the merits of your own. No one expects much of a rookie QB taking over with an interim staff in place. Read posts on this board for proof...people were just hoping he wouldn't look like a total bust and give us some hope going forward. You're lying if you deny that. In the meantime, any performance of Orton's that wasn't completely flawless was proof that he "sucked." No matter how solid his production, folks like you stood by the "Kyle sucks" mantra. Nothing short of morphing into Peyton Manning would have won a lot of you over. But Tebow comes in and completes two downfield passes against Oakland and you're slobbering all over him. If you can't see the wild disproportion there, then there is no point trying to convince you otherwise.

No, no, this isn't about fan perception and what the fans would've judged as passable. That's how you're looking at it. It's about who was actually in a more difficult situation. That's the part you're blatantly ignoring.

frerottenextelway
12-30-2010, 02:50 PM
It seems people want to make excuses for Ortons failures and for Tebows successes. At some point the results just speak for themselves.

TonyR
12-30-2010, 02:51 PM
No one expects much of a rookie QB taking over with an interim staff in place. Read posts on this board for proof...people were just hoping he wouldn't look like a total bust and give us some hope going forward. You're lying if you deny that. In the meantime, any performance of Orton's that wasn't completely flawless was proof that he "sucked." No matter how solid his production, folks like you stood by the "Kyle sucks" mantra.

The fact that Tebow was praised after Denver got blown out by Oakland supports this point. Tebow did a fine job for a first start but if Orton had the same performance he would've been slammed, fair or not.

BroncoInferno
12-30-2010, 02:52 PM
...and how many misses did he have on 3rd down?

...and how many 3rd and longs did HE PUT HIMSELF INTO with delay of game penalties?

...and how many more on illegal formations?

...and why was Tim 6 of 11 on 3rd down (a whopping 80% in the 2nd half too)?

Two reasons: 1) we ran the ball better in that game than we have on the balance of the season, thus few 3rd and longs and 2) Tebow was able to buy time in the pocket with his mobility to find an open man downfield. He has more talent than Orton. That isn't what we are arguing.

Beantown Bronco
12-30-2010, 02:56 PM
The real question is whether Matt Ryan is overrated.

Yes, extremely overrated by some. It's not a coincidence that the guy performs well when Turner is lighting up opponents and sucks when Turner is either ineffective or out injured.

Drek
12-30-2010, 02:59 PM
The part I don't understand is that Josh proved to be a failure and washed out in horrendous fashion within two years! It's crystal clear who the Denver Broncos villain is, especially after guys like Nolan, Turner, Dennison headed for the hills and we even have Xanders selling McD down the river now!

Yet Cutler still gets the wrap from some people?

More power to ya, I guess. We have Tebow and that should be celebrated, but we don't have to bemoan a former Bronco competing for a championship.

You do know that this isn't an either/or debate right?

McDaniels did a ****ty job with this team overall, no debating that. But that still doesn't mean he didn't have Cutler and Cook trying to hang an albatross contract around his neck two years before Cutler reached FA. It also doesn't change the fact that Cutler was traded at Bowlen's behest, not McDaniels.

McDaniels ****ing up doesn't automatically make Cutler right. It just makes them both douche bags.

But as you said, thankfully now we're blessed with a QB who isn't a douche bag.

I wish Cutler all the success in the world. If that defense can carry him to title then he should live it up. I would only wish the Broncos were so lucky that we could get by with a middle of the road QB and win a title.

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 03:05 PM
Two reasons: 1) we ran the ball better in that game than we have on the balance of the season, thus few 3rd and longs and 2) Tebow was able to buy time in the pocket with his mobility to find an open man downfield. He has more talent than Orton. That isn't what we are arguing.

Third downs:

3-7-DEN 44 (8:56) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow pass short left to 10-J.Gaffney to HST 45 for 11 yards (31-B.Pollard).

3-15- (6:43) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow pass short right to 19-E.Royal to HST 41 for 9 yards (30-J.Allen).

3-10-DEN 41 (1:17) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow scrambles up the middle to DEN 42 for 1 yard (99-T.Jamison).

3-6-DEN 37 (9:44) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow pass short left to 19-E.Royal to 50 for 13 yards (29-G.Quin).

3-4-HOU 44 (7:40) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow pass incomplete short right to 19-E.Royal.

3-6-DEN 13 (4:20) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow pass incomplete short left to 10-J.Gaffney (30-J.Allen). DEN-10-J.Gaffney was injured during the play.

3-8-HOU 9 (7:16) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow pass incomplete short right to 19-E.Royal.

3-9-HOU 49 (13:56) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow pass deep right to 84-B.Lloyd to HST 31 for 18 yards (31-B.Pollard).

3-14-HOU 23 (11:05) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow pass short left to 28-C.Buckhalter for 23 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

3-10-DEN 24 (6:49) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow pass short right to 28-C.Buckhalter to DEN 46 for 22 yards (29-G.Quin).

That's an average of 3rd and 8.9

If you tried could you be more wrong in this discussion?

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 03:06 PM
You do know that this isn't an either/or debate right?

McDaniels did a ****ty job with this team overall, no debating that. But that still doesn't mean he didn't have Cutler and Cook trying to hang an albatross contract around his neck two years before Cutler reached FA. It also doesn't change the fact that Cutler was traded at Bowlen's behest, not McDaniels.

McDaniels ****ing up doesn't automatically make Cutler right. It just makes them both douche bags.

But as you said, thankfully now we're blessed with a QB who isn't a douche bag.

I wish Cutler all the success in the world. If that defense can carry him to title then he should live it up. I would only wish the Broncos were so lucky that we could get by with a middle of the road QB and win a title.

You took his feud with McDaniels very hard (especially the Bus Cook situation), so it really doesn't surprise me you're clinging to this drivel. That's your personal choice though, so good for you.

strafen
12-30-2010, 03:08 PM
You're skimming my argument and exaggerating the merits of your own. No one expects much of a rookie QB taking over with an interim staff in place. Read posts on this board for proof...people were just hoping he wouldn't look like a total bust and give us some hope going forward. You're lying if you deny that. In the meantime, any performance of Orton's that wasn't completely flawless was proof that he "sucked." No matter how solid his production, folks like you stood by the "Kyle sucks" mantra. Nothing short of morphing into Peyton Manning would have won a lot of you over. But Tebow comes in and completes two downfield passes against Oakland and you're slobbering all over him. If you can't see the wild disproportion there, then there is no point trying to convince you otherwise.
What would it take for you to understand that Kyle Orton is a fraud. The guy flat out sucks. Yes, he sucks!
Just because he's a Bronco you can't call it like it is?
Seriously. Is he a franchise QB?
No.
Can he get you to the play-offs and win games for you without a strong supporting cast around him?
No.
Does he inspire confidence in you that we're in good hands with him?
No.
Believe me, the rest of the NFL knows that too. And if you think we'd get a 3rd round pick for him, I'll be shocked!

There you have it.
What good is the guy for?
He's a back-up QB at best.
One of the reasons he toughed it out last year at insisting on playing hurt was precisely because of that. He knew if somebody took his spot for a couple of consecutive games that he would never see the field again.
Lucky for him, Simms sucked worse than he did

At the end, his biggest nightmare became true. He's got hurt, Tebow is in, and Orton will never see the field again as the Denver Broncos starting QB.
Next...

AZorange1
12-30-2010, 03:12 PM
If McDaniels would have used Tebow as a short-yardage / red zone specialist, he probably would still be here. You know... instead of calling such an idea ridiculous, eventually using it with 100% success, and predictably abandoning it after proving successful.

I would love to hear that conversation between Orton and McDaniels. Like "Ok Kyle, thanks for gettin' us to the 20, now go sit down and watch". By the way, your that kid with the loud motorcycle, aren't you?

Dr. Broncenstein
12-30-2010, 03:40 PM
I would love to hear that conversation between Orton and McDaniels. Like "Ok Kyle, thanks for gettin' us to the 20, now go sit down and watch". By the way, your that kid with the loud motorcycle, aren't you?

That scenario would also include 3rd and 3 or less, 4th down attempts, and two-point conversions.

Hamrob
12-30-2010, 03:42 PM
You do know that this isn't an either/or debate right?

McDaniels did a ****ty job with this team overall, no debating that. But that still doesn't mean he didn't have Cutler and Cook trying to hang an albatross contract around his neck two years before Cutler reached FA. It also doesn't change the fact that Cutler was traded at Bowlen's behest, not McDaniels.

McDaniels ****ing up doesn't automatically make Cutler right. It just makes them both douche bags.

But as you said, thankfully now we're blessed with a QB who isn't a douche bag.

I wish Cutler all the success in the world. If that defense can carry him to title then he should live it up. I would only wish the Broncos were so lucky that we could get by with a middle of the road QB and win a title. I'd say that's a little unfair. Cutler is playing pretty amazing right now and he's only just learning Martz's offense. Add to that, that his Oline is less than stellar and his receivers are only so-so...I'd say, he's doing pretty exceptional. Give him another year in Martz's offense...watch out.

And, if the Chicago Bears have any chance at winning a Championship...it will be because of Jay Cutler...not despite of him. The Defense will get them to the dance...but QB play is what will get them to the championship.

Drek
12-30-2010, 03:44 PM
You took his feud with McDaniels very hard (especially the Bus Cook situation), so it really doesn't surprise me you're clinging to this drivel. That's your personal choice though, so good for you.

Sure. I heard the entire time about how McDaniels was responsible and its his fault he didn't promise Jay the sun, the moon, and the stars to make him happy. All the while being told that Jay doesn't want to be traded and it had nothing to do with money.

Then Cutler has Cook formally request a trade. Once he gets it he denied ever asking for it. A few months later he's got a fat new contract.

I don't blame Cutler, I just don't like the disingenuous tactics employed by his agent (whom he chooses to employ).

He obviously felt betrayed when both Shanahan and Bates were shown the door. He's never been a big Marshall fan so that pairing wasn't going to keep him in town. The new coach wasn't willing to give him a big fat new contract.

From a career standpoint there was zero motivation for him to stay here. In the end he got traded to his favorite team as a child and got the fat new contract extension he wanted. Its win/win for him.

I work in a rather specialized field and when I don't feel appropriately compensated and unhappy with the organizational direction and/or staffing I do shop around. Who wouldn't? But you should do it with a certain level of integrity and not wage a local media war just to get your wish. Thats the Bus Cook MO though.

OrangeSe7en
12-30-2010, 03:46 PM
I'd say that's a little unfair. Cutler is playing pretty amazing right now and he's only just learning Martz's offense. Add to that, that his Oline is less than stellar and his receivers are only so-so...I'd say, he's doing pretty exceptional. Give him another year in Martz's offense...watch out.

And, if the Chicago Bears have any chance at winning a Championship...it will be because of Jay Cutler...not despite of him. The Defense will get them to the dance...but QB play is what will get them to the championship.

The interesting irony with the Bears is that theyve been winning by Jay tempering his gunslinger tendencies and being more diligent about running the ball. But in the post season, the Bears may find themselves in a situation where it takes Jay being a gunslinger at some point to advance.

This was something that occurred to me after they played the Eagles. The Bears won by converting and minimizing mistakes. But if the Eagles would have played their 'A' game, it probably would have required Jay to be a gunslinger to win.

Drek
12-30-2010, 03:49 PM
I'd say that's a little unfair. Cutler is playing pretty amazing right now and he's only just learning Martz's offense. Add to that, that his Oline is less than stellar and his receivers are only so-so...I'd say, he's doing pretty exceptional. Give him another year in Martz's offense...watch out.

And, if the Chicago Bears have any chance at winning a Championship...it will be because of Jay Cutler...not despite of him. The Defense will get them to the dance...but QB play is what will get them to the championship.

He's done well recently against the Vikings (hopelessly lost team at the moment who didn't find a spark this season until they put Webb on the field Tuesday night) and the Jets (pass defense was completely exposed by the Patriots just a couple weeks before and a team heading in the wrong direction come playoff time).

He completely **** the bed against a mediocre Patriots defense not too long before that but I guess thats not a convenient sample.

The Bears won their first title with defense. They got to their second Super Bowl thanks to defense. Defense is what has traditionally done it for the Bears in post-season.

He's the same guy we had in '07 and '08. Thats a pretty solid QB, but its not franchise QB material. Labeling him a "stud" doesn't really fit at this point when he's leading a mediocre scoring offense and the third worst yardage offense in the NFL.

SoCalBronco
12-30-2010, 03:52 PM
Sure. I heard the entire time about how McDaniels was responsible and its his fault he didn't promise Jay the sun, the moon, and the stars to make him happy. All the while being told that Jay doesn't want to be traded and it had nothing to do with money.

Then Cutler has Cook formally request a trade. Once he gets it he denied ever asking for it. A few months later he's got a fat new contract.

I don't blame Cutler, I just don't like the disingenuous tactics employed by his agent (whom he chooses to employ).

He obviously felt betrayed when both Shanahan and Bates were shown the door. He's never been a big Marshall fan so that pairing wasn't going to keep him in town. The new coach wasn't willing to give him a big fat new contract.

From a career standpoint there was zero motivation for him to stay here. In the end he got traded to his favorite team as a child and got the fat new contract extension he wanted. Its win/win for him.

I work in a rather specialized field and when I don't feel appropriately compensated and unhappy with the organizational direction and/or staffing I do shop around. Who wouldn't? But you should do it with a certain level of integrity and not wage a local media war just to get your wish. Thats the Bus Cook MO though.

Please. Let's not pretend that Bus Cook was the only one engaging in bush league tactics. This organization was downright shameful in the methods they employed. Ofcourse the player is going to take advantage when they have the coach behind the 8 ball. The team was just as dirty and in fact, MUCH worse. We heard very, very little in the mainstream media about Cutler and drinking until after this crisis and when it was clear the team was getting RAPED in the PR war, we suddenly started hearing these things. I wonder how this stuff got fed to writers?

And it was extremely hypocritical for Bowlen to act offended by the fact that Jay wouldnt return his phone calls when he REFUSED TO GET OFF HIS ASS and walk 100 feet to another room in the complex when Jay came to a face to face meeting. He waived ALL issues and all complaints after that. Don't tell me you want to talk when I'm in the other room and you won't come in there. That's bull****. Bowlen is nothing more than a two faced piece of ****. Don't tell me he wanted to "let Josh work it out with Jay", either. It was painfully obvious by that point that they couldn't do it on their own and every time they tried either through the press or otherwise, it turned into a dick measuring contest, so its the owner's job to intervene and help especially with the two principals ARE BOTH IN THE BUILDING. I don't want to hear Pat crying crocodile tears ever again about anything. The organization showed an extreme lack of class and common sense throughout the entire episode.

BroncoInferno
12-30-2010, 04:02 PM
We heard very, very little in the mainstream media about Cutler and drinking until after this crisis and when it was clear the team was getting RAPED in the PR war, we suddenly started hearing these things. I wonder how this stuff got fed to writers?

You know perfectly well that long before McD's arrival Kaylore and montrose had posted several times about Jay heavily drinking around town the night before games. That wasn't something new that the front office just made up, and you certainly have literally zero proof that they had any part in putting out that info, it's merely what you want to believe because you made your mind up that the front office were the villans in the confrontation.

SoCalBronco
12-30-2010, 04:05 PM
You know perfectly well that long before McD's arrival Kaylore and montrose had posted several times about Jay heavily drinking around town the night before games. That wasn't something new that the front office just made up, and you certainly have literally zero proof that they had any part in putting out that info, it's merely what you want to believe because you made your mind up that the front office were the villans in the confrontation.

I'm not talking about Kaylore and montrose posting stuff on the Mane...I said the mainstream media. We started hearing about these things a great deal more after the crisis had first erupted. I'm sure that was purely a coincidence, though. I don't have to have a video of Xanders meeting with Peter King in the parking lot and giving him drunk photos of Jay. It's called Res Ipsa Loquitur.

OrangeSe7en
12-30-2010, 04:08 PM
It kind of feels like Tebow was orphaned by McDaniels not playing him and now we're Tebow's proud parents. Tebow has quickly gone from being "McDaniels guy" to "our guy".

Drek
12-30-2010, 04:19 PM
Please. Let's not pretend that Bus Cook was the only one engaging in bush league tactics.

Wasn't saying he was the only one. I think Ellis is an incredibly conniving, unscrupulous asshole who likely did everything he could to sabotage Cutler's image when it became convenient to his views.

But that doesn't change the fact that Cutler employed an agent who's specialty in recent years was helping clients relocate and Cutler just so happened to have need of those services. The tactics used just so happened to mirror those used when Cook got both McNair and Favre moved. Media war, paint the organization as the bad guy, etc..

Same thing as using McDaniels failure as proof of trading Cutler being a mistake. Just because one side behaved like **** doesn't mean the other is off the hook for it.

However, that in no way jades my perception of Cutler as a solid QB who has shown little to no growth since his first year as an every game starter in '07. Nor does it change the view I had of him well before he was traded or Shanahan was even fired, which is that he lacks the ability to close out when games matter the most. He's walked to an easy divisional win this year thanks to the Packers and Vikings falling apart. It'll be interesting to see how he fares in his first playoff action.

Rohirrim
12-30-2010, 04:35 PM
I expect another collapse and a mighty pout.

Drek
12-30-2010, 05:02 PM
I expect another collapse and a mighty pout.

I personally hope he proves me wrong and that last year was the massive serving of humble pie he needed to start showing the maturity needed to elevate his game.

I like watching good football. The most exciting thing about Cutler's game right now is the roll of the dice on if he's going to let himself be a game manager or if he's going to say **** it, I'm going deep and throw three picks and get sacked a half dozen times.

OABB
12-30-2010, 05:03 PM
I personally hope he proves me wrong and that last year was the massive serving of humble pie he needed to start showing the maturity needed to elevate his game.

I like watching good football. The most exciting thing about Cutler's game right now is the roll of the dice on if he's going to let himself be a game manager or if he's going to say **** it, I'm going deep and throw three picks and get sacked a half dozen times.

citditc!

(chuck it deep into triple coverage)

Gort
12-30-2010, 05:14 PM
I expect another collapse and a mighty pout.

jeez. can you imagine how smug the cutler doublechinhuggers are going to be if the Bears luck into facing the NFC West champs in their first playoff game? ugh. they'll have their HOF ballots filled out before the game even starts.

KipCorrington25
12-30-2010, 05:16 PM
Yep, just another example of McDaniels making the wrong decision, it was sort of like a pattern.

It's the George Costanza philosophy, if you want to make the right choice do the opposite of McCheat.

HAT
12-30-2010, 08:55 PM
There are three different moves that each could have been handled differently to save McDaniels. If he didn't trade Cutler, he would be here. If he didn't run off Nolan, he would be here. If he would have played Tebow at any time, he would still be here. Any one of these would have helped him keep his job.

Goes to show how much integrity the dude had.......All of us work with managers who would take the easy way out to save their own skin. Pretty refreshing to see somebody stick to their guns.

Hopefully Bowlen learns a life lesson here. So far he's simply let an irrelevant coach stay years beyond his prime and fired another one before he hit his stride.

footstepsfrom#27
12-30-2010, 09:18 PM
Well, duh.

1. He probably would still be with us if we were hovering at .500 regardless of the QB.

2. Yeah, Kyle Orton killed McDaniels. No ****. Btw, did anyone start the "Kyle Orton is a budding coach killer" thread?
How ironic is it that McDaniels two greatest achievements in Denver, reclaiming Kyle Orton's career and having the foresight to recognize what Tebow could be and going after him in the draft...those were the two things that probably worked together and ended his tenure here. Had either of them not taken place, he'd probaly still be here. If he hadn't drafted Tebow, the fanbase wouldn't have clamored for him, and Orton's performance would be taking a distant 2nd place at water cooler conversations behind the issues on defense. If he hadn't helped Orton get to the next level, fans wouldn't be debating if it was necessary to draft a QB in the first round. McD victimized himself with his own success as well as the failures. Bowlen should have known from the get-go that a 32 year old guy just wasn't ready yet.

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 09:24 PM
Goes to show how much integrity the dude had.......All of us work with managers who would take the easy way out to save their own skin. Pretty refreshing to see somebody stick to their guns.

Hopefully Bowlen learns a life lesson here. So far he's simply let an irrelevant coach stay years beyond his prime and fired another one before he hit his stride.

Hilarious!

Nice to see you keeping up the HAT status quo, but you already hit your quota for asinine statements for the year by a large margin with gems such as:

I bet the defense improves without Nolan
I bet anyone Kyle Orton goes to the probowl

And other gems!

Hamrob
12-30-2010, 09:32 PM
He's done well recently against the Vikings (hopelessly lost team at the moment who didn't find a spark this season until they put Webb on the field Tuesday night) and the Jets (pass defense was completely exposed by the Patriots just a couple weeks before and a team heading in the wrong direction come playoff time).

He completely **** the bed against a mediocre Patriots defense not too long before that but I guess thats not a convenient sample.

The Bears won their first title with defense. They got to their second Super Bowl thanks to defense. Defense is what has traditionally done it for the Bears in post-season.

He's the same guy we had in '07 and '08. Thats a pretty solid QB, but its not franchise QB material. Labeling him a "stud" doesn't really fit at this point when he's leading a mediocre scoring offense and the third worst yardage offense in the NFL.Look, I'm not saying that Cutler is an elite QB right now. But, there's little doubt that he's got it in him to become elite. He's learning yet another complicated offense and things are starting to click for him.

Mike Mayock was talking about Cutler yesterday and said that he was impressed and that the biggest thing that the Bears have done to become more competetive...was completely revamp their offensive line. They benched their right tackle and plugged in a rookie, the benched their right guard and moved their left guard to right guard and then moved a new guy into the lineup at Left Guard. The result? Cutler was sacked 30+ times in the first half of the year and that has been cut to less than half during the 2nd half of the season.

Mayock said that there is simply no way for Cutler to be successful with such an abysmal Oline.

Rod Woodson just spoke about the Bears poor Oline and subpar receivers and said that the Bears are only as good as Cutler can make them...and with what he has to work with...he just doesn't see it happening. Then he went on to say...he didn't think that the Bears would be able to beat the Packers this weekend.

footstepsfrom#27
12-30-2010, 09:34 PM
You do know that this isn't an either/or debate right?

McDaniels did a ****ty job with this team overall, no debating that. But that still doesn't mean he didn't have Cutler and Cook trying to hang an albatross contract around his neck two years before Cutler reached FA. It also doesn't change the fact that Cutler was traded at Bowlen's behest, not McDaniels.

McDaniels ****ing up doesn't automatically make Cutler right. It just makes them both douche bags.

But as you said, thankfully now we're blessed with a QB who isn't a douche bag.

I wish Cutler all the success in the world. If that defense can carry him to title then he should live it up. I would only wish the Broncos were so lucky that we could get by with a middle of the road QB and win a title.
I usually like to read your takes because they're generally well thought out and logically constructed in a way that makes your argument pretty well, but hanging onto the notion he's a middle of the road guy really lowers your credibility. Over the last 6 weeks or so, Cutler's been terrific for the Bears and he's getting better. I'm glad we have Tebow and I wouldn't trade him now for Cutler, but Cutler is a great, great talent who will probably win titles before he's done, as will Tebow.

Hamrob
12-30-2010, 09:34 PM
Look, I'm not saying that Cutler is an elite QB right now. But, there's little doubt that he's got it in him to become elite. He's learning yet another complicated offense and things are starting to click for him.

Mike Mayock was talking about Cutler yesterday and said that he was impressed and that the biggest thing that the Bears have done to become more competetive...was completely revamp their offensive line. They benched their right tackle and plugged in a rookie, the benched their right guard and moved their left guard to right guard and then moved a new guy into the lineup at Left Guard. The result? Cutler was sacked 30+ times in the first half of the year and that has been cut to less than half during the 2nd half of the season.

Mayock said that there is simply no way for Cutler to be successful with such an abysmal Oline.

Rod Woodson just spoke about the Bears poor Oline and subpar receivers and said that the Bears are only as good as Cutler can make them...and with what he has to work with...he just doesn't see it happening. Then he went on to say...he didn't think that the Bears would be able to beat the Packers this weekend.So, yes the Bears defense is good and it helped get them to the playoffs...but, if they want to go anywhere in the playoffs...that will depend on Jay Cutler and whether he can pull a rabbit out of a hat.

HAT
12-30-2010, 09:40 PM
Hilarious!

Nice to see you keeping up the HAT status quo, but you already hit your quota for asinine statements for the year by a large margin with gems such as:

I bet the defense improves without Nolan
I bet anyone Kyle Orton goes to the probowl

And other gems!

A) The pro bowl hasn't been played yet.

B) I said Brady, Manning & Rivers would be voted.

C) SB QB can't play in PB

D) I am/was counting on Big Ben not being named an alternate b/c he missed 4 games and it'll look bad for the league to reward a rapist

E) Schaub, Flacco, & Orton were the most logical choices last summer to slide in.

F) Injuries were always a factor in my handicapping, that's why I got 4-1 odds

G) Go **** a lobster.

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 10:12 PM
A) The pro bowl hasn't been played yet.

B) I said Brady, Manning & Rivers would be voted.

C) SB QB can't play in PB

D) I am/was counting on Big Ben not being named an alternate b/c he missed 4 games and it'll look bad for the league to reward a rapist

E) Schaub, Flacco, & Orton were the most logical choices last summer to slide in.

F) Injuries were always a factor in my handicapping, that's why I got 4-1 odds

G) Go **** a lobster.

Correct. The pro bowl hasn't been played yet.

Let's look at Kyle's chances amongst AFC competitors (not even the whole NFL):

Tied for 7th in ypa
6th in yardage
9th in rating (bottom half, lol)
10th in passing TDs (bottom half, lol)
11th in 1st down % (bottom half, lol)
12th in completion % (bottom half, lol)

So..... yeah.... in his best category... there's FIVE other AFC QBs ahead of him. The majority of categories, MOST other AFC QBs are beating him in. Not to mention he's been benched for a rookie "project" and being vastly outperformed by him, despite missing his playcaller/coach.

This is very consistent with your god awful HAT analysis, such as your Nolan claim.

2 Summations:

1. You're one of the bigger OM dumb****s as evidenced above

2. You're my lobster, you stupid b****.

HAT
12-30-2010, 10:42 PM
Correct. The pro bowl hasn't been played yet.

Let's look at Kyle's chances amongst AFC competitors (not even the whole NFL):

Tied for 7th in ypa
6th in yardage
9th in rating (bottom half, lol)
10th in passing TDs (bottom half, lol)
11th in 1st down % (bottom half, lol)
12th in completion % (bottom half, lol)



You can backfit it all you want. A healthy Orton, coached by McD, for 16 games, would be in Hawaii without a doubt. It was always fairly likely that Orton would miss a game or two due to injury. That's what odds are for.

My bad luck that his injury happened at the tail of the season and just as McD was fired.

Bottom line....I had the best of it pre-flop. My top pair got cracked on the turn...Let's see what the river brings. :thumbs:

bowtown
12-30-2010, 11:10 PM
If Orton had stayed healthy through the entire season he would have made at least first alternate. The biggest problem with Orton is that he isn't capable of a full healthy season.

Dagmar
12-31-2010, 08:03 AM
Rev needs to lay off the steroids, every time he gets into an argument he thinks the only way to attempt to win is a ****ing dick measuring contest Ha!

TheReverend
12-31-2010, 08:28 AM
Rev needs to lay off the steroids, every time he gets into an argument he thinks the only way to attempt to win is a ****ing dick measuring contest Ha!

Yup. All me.

G) Go **** a lobster.

Can't say I would've expected literacy from European schools :)

Dagmar
12-31-2010, 08:32 AM
Yup. All me.
Can't say I would've expected literacy from European schools :)

USA and the UK are tied for 21st on the planet http://forum.football365.com/images/smiley_icons/santatoppa.gif

TonyR
12-31-2010, 08:42 AM
Mike Mayock was talking about Cutler yesterday and said that he was impressed and that the biggest thing that the Bears have done to become more competetive...was completely revamp their offensive line.

I was surprised and impressed with how much time Cutler had in the pocket against the Jets last weekend. He had a day to stand back there and the commentators noted it a few times. I thought that O-line was going to get Cutler killed in the Martz offense this season, and earlier in the year it looked like I was going to be right about that. But they've really turned it around. Their O-line looked better than ours in that game.

Drek
12-31-2010, 10:03 AM
I usually like to read your takes because they're generally well thought out and logically constructed in a way that makes your argument pretty well, but hanging onto the notion he's a middle of the road guy really lowers your credibility. Over the last 6 weeks or so, Cutler's been terrific for the Bears and he's getting better. I'm glad we have Tebow and I wouldn't trade him now for Cutler, but Cutler is a great, great talent who will probably win titles before he's done, as will Tebow.

His offense is 18th in scoring, 30th in yardage. Even after this last 6 game span he's still 21st in passing yards per game. He's 13th in QB rating. 16th in completion percentage. He's 11th in both interceptions and touchdowns.

Jay Cutler in 2010 is by definition a middle of the road quarterback. He looks a LOT like 2007 Jay Cutler actually, his first year as a full time starter.

Cutler has all world potential. But potential alone doesn't make you elite, or even good. If a six game stretch was all it takes to become an elite QB then Kyle Orton has proven himself elite. I wouldn't agree with that assessment of Orton, would you?

Jesterhole
12-31-2010, 10:30 AM
As much as I love Cutler and his talent, he comes off as someone that doesn't have elite drive to be great. He certainly has all the tools, mental and physical, to be the best QB playing today. If you put Tim's intangibles inside Jay, you'd have the best QB who ever existed.

I'd still rather Jay had never been traded, but now that we have Tim and we have a complete and utter gamer and football player at QB again, it's hard to imagine going back.

AtlantaBronco
12-31-2010, 10:58 AM
The bottom line is no matter who is QB is there won't be wins because the supporting cast is lacking. In less than 2 years McDaniels destroyed the talent level on the team. McDaniels trades and moves resulted in losing more talent than was brought in. Just look at what he did at QB. He trades Hillis for Quinn. Then he trades draft picks to trade up to draft Tebow. This was after he traded draft picks to move up to get Thomas. Not to mention Thomas was hurt when he was drafted and is still hurt. Does anyone consider Thomas or Tebow can miss pros? Because really you should only give up draft picks to move up if a guy is a can't miss. It is almost like McDaniels adopted a burn the bridges strategy to where if he doesn't coach the team then nobody else will want to either because of the moves he made.

There doesn’t seem to be a clear vision of what the Broncos want to be. Under Shanahan it was pretty clear. To be the best team at the end of the year and be a first class organization. Fault Shanahan all you want but the organization's vision was never unclear. This has to be Bowlen's (if he is of clear mind) first act of rebuilding. What does he want the organization to be? After that the pieces can be built and put in place. But from what I have seen this is going to be a very long rebuilding process because of what McDaniels did.