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steeledude
12-29-2010, 12:59 PM
I know McD changed the way our line blocks and suddenly we went from a great line to one of the worst. Ryan Harris was considered amazing a couple of years ago, and Clady didn't look like his usual self. Of course there are many possible factors here, injuries are a strong possibility, but with Kuper, Clady, and Harris all playing beneath the level they'd played at just a couple of years ago, I have often wondered if the power blocking scheme was to blame.

I understood the idea behind the scheme change on the oline--we were terrible in the redzone. But we still are. And now our runningbacks don't look half as good.

I think we have personnel perfectly suited for the zoneblocking scheme, and this could also help someone like Moreno not bust out. I am worried about how good he is going to be.

The question would be--with Dennison gone, are there any coaching candidates out there who can come back in and implement it? Would it be worth doing so?

If the scheme change plays to the strengths of Harris and Kuper that saves us a lot of trouble in terms of the draft allowing us to focus more on defense.

Ray Finkle
12-29-2010, 01:04 PM
I know McD changed the way our line blocks and suddenly we went from a great line to one of the worst. Ryan Harris was considered amazing a couple of years ago, and Clady didn't look like his usual self. Of course there are many possible factors here, injuries are a strong possibility, but with Kuper, Clady, and Harris all playing beneath the level they'd played at just a couple of years ago, I have often wondered if the power blocking scheme was to blame.

I understood the idea behind the scheme change on the oline--we were terrible in the redzone. But we still are. And now our runningbacks don't look half as good.

I think we have personnel perfectly suited for the zoneblocking scheme, and this could also help someone like Moreno not bust out. I am worried about how good he is going to be.

The question would be--with Dennison gone, are there any coaching candidates out there who can come back in and implement it? Would it be worth doing so?

If the scheme change plays to the strengths of Harris and Kuper that saves us a lot of trouble in terms of the draft allowing us to focus more on defense.

all teams zone block....Denver even did it last game. A team that relies on total ZBS will not survive against 3-4 Defenses and physical teams. Chaulk the injuries up to Kuper, Clady, and Harris as well as the inexperience of Beatles and Walton as to the poor line play. They have improved as the season has gone on.

bronco militia
12-29-2010, 01:09 PM
I think our OL is nothing but a bunch of fat guys that get beat at the snap, and dominated at the point of attack.

Mr
12-29-2010, 01:17 PM
I think our OL is nothing but a bunch of fat guys that get beat at the snap, and dominated at the point of attack.

Yup.
They need to get either fatter or faster.
They're on the fence, and the fence wobbles.

Kaylore
12-29-2010, 01:21 PM
Hey Steeldude! How have you been? :)

AlienBronco
12-29-2010, 01:22 PM
We need to sign Mike Tice away from the Bears!

listopencil
12-29-2010, 01:22 PM
A big part of O-Line success is continuity. It's a team within the team. First and foremost we need to have the same 5 guys, with at least average ability, play/practice together week in and week out. Other than that we have to have good coaching and solid blocking assignments. I don't think it's so much scheme as execution.

SonOfLe-loLang
12-29-2010, 01:48 PM
actually since they started the 1st and goal tebow situations, have we been bad in the redzone?

Pony Boy
12-29-2010, 01:50 PM
I do miss the borderline cut blocks and watching Chiefs cry to the refs......

bronco militia
12-29-2010, 01:51 PM
I do miss the borderline cut blocks and watching Chiefs cry to the refs......

;D yeah me too.

Dedhed
12-29-2010, 02:13 PM
I have often wondered if the power blocking scheme was to blame.


The scheme isn't to blame, but the transition. The same guys would have the same issues if they had been man blocking all their lives and were asked to zone block exclusively.

Great OL play is as much about coordination as a unit as it is about the individual parts.

Between the change in the scheme and the rotating personnel, there was very little coordination across the OL for the first half of the season. There has been noticeable improvement since then.

With the development of Beadles and Walton and another year in the scheme I expect much better play from the OL from week 1.

Harris to me is the real question mark. If we can only count on him for 8-9 games a year, I think we're better off trying to pick up another RT either trough the draft or FA.

snowspot66
12-29-2010, 02:20 PM
actually since they started the 1st and goal tebow situations, have we been bad in the redzone?

We've been tearing up the red zone lately.

cmhargrove
12-29-2010, 02:21 PM
Great running backs make even average linemen look good.

Just sayin...



I'll second the previous statement about every team running some plays with zone blocking, and some with straight up man or power blocking schemes. It's also a problem with becoming too predictable. When a defense figures out your scheme too easily, they can find ways to pulverize you.

I think we need a speedy homerun threat RB, and a quick, pass catching TE. If we are moving forward with Tebow, let's just install the whole Florida package...

Caveat Lector
12-29-2010, 02:25 PM
I think Michael Lombardi summed up the ZBS very well in one of his articles a while back -

"I am not a big fan of the zone running scheme being employed in Seattle, Washington and Houston. It had its place in the late 90s, and sure individual rushers like Arian Foster this season can have success. ...But now it has become pretty much obsolete in this sense: When a team running the zone scheme gets behind in the game and the defense knows they have to pass, their offensive line cannot pass protect and they end up getting further behind. The longer the game goes, the lack of size and physical toughness of their line wears down. The entire team becomes soft, and the defense lacks the ability to handle power. The system might have worked back in the day, but being a small offensive line -- or a light line -- does not win when the opponent knows it's a passing game."

What he just described was Denver's offense 2001-2008.

colonelbeef
12-29-2010, 02:35 PM
all teams zone block....Denver even did it last game. A team that relies on total ZBS will not survive against 3-4 Defenses and physical teams. Chaulk the injuries up to Kuper, Clady, and Harris as well as the inexperience of Beatles and Walton as to the poor line play. They have improved as the season has gone on.

If that is true, how on earth did the Broncos regularly beat the Patriots during the Shanahan tenure? How did Shanahan go in to Pittsburgh and beat the Cowher Steelers in 97? How did he beat the Packers in the super bowl?

Saying that it "cant work" or "will not survive" is silly. It's a proven system that can work, given the right personnel.

Ray Finkle
12-29-2010, 02:47 PM
If that is true, how on earth did the Broncos regularly beat the Patriots during the Shanahan tenure? How did Shanahan go in to Pittsburgh and beat the Cowher Steelers in 97? How did he beat the Packers in the super bowl?

Saying that it "cant work" or "will not survive" is silly. It's a proven system that can work, given the right personnel.

wow...you pick what, 5 games out Shanahan's 14 years as validation? Let's remember that the 97 team had 3 HOF and probably a few borderline HOF's on offense.

Bronco Boy
12-29-2010, 02:53 PM
Great running backs make even average linemen look good.

Just sayin...



I think you have that backwards.

bowtown
12-29-2010, 03:02 PM
Hey Steeldude! How have you been? :)

Uh oh. Now you've done it.

fontaine
12-30-2010, 03:14 PM
The problem is not with the scheme, it's with the personnel running it.

The reason why ZBS is attractive to some is that because it's only used largely by very few teams, the kind of OL that fit the bill for it can be found later in the draft. Those guys take a few years to develop but provide a pretty good investment for return where they were drafted.

If teams used high round picks on OL that were BOTH athletic and physically able to dominate (ie Ryan Clady) then the ZBS would be just as effective down the stretch as man blocking schemes.

Ultimately coaching also plays a big part. You don't have to have 5 stud OL to run good plays. Just the ability to recognize talent and use it in the right scheme like using an athletic G to pull or get to the 2nd level rather than insisting they stay at home and go toe to toe against 330 lb DTs which most guards can't do alone regardless of schemes.

Conversely you could have idiot coaches who dump OL talent, then insist on going into the season with a rookie C and cast off practice squad OL at Guard and end up with trash up front because you're a fist pumping moron.

Doggcow
12-30-2010, 03:28 PM
My Brother has an idea about ZBS.

It works better in Denver because of the altitude. Those Smaller guys can run longer, and do more, and take bigger advantage of their athleticism than big guys can in the environment.

OrangeSe7en
12-30-2010, 03:32 PM
The problem is not with the scheme, it's with the personnel running it.

The reason why ZBS is attractive to some is that because it's only used largely by very few teams, the kind of OL that fit the bill for it can be found later in the draft. Those guys take a few years to develop but provide a pretty good investment for return where they were drafted.

If teams used high round picks on OL that were BOTH athletic and physically able to dominate (ie Ryan Clady) then the ZBS would be just as effective down the stretch as man blocking schemes.

Ultimately coaching also plays a big part. You don't have to have 5 stud OL to run good plays. Just the ability to recognize talent and use it in the right scheme like using an athletic G to pull or get to the 2nd level rather than insisting they stay at home and go toe to toe against 330 lb DTs which most guards can't do alone regardless of schemes.

Conversely you could have idiot coaches who dump OL talent, then insist on going into the season with a rookie C and cast off practice squad OL at Guard and end up with trash up front because you're a fist pumping moron.

This is correct. When people see a small guy get shoved around, they incorrectly come to the conclusion that its a system problem and not a personnel problem. The truth is that there are players who are strong enough, technical enough, and mobile enough to run it without getting pushed around so much. This system has functioned well at the goal line for various teams and continues to.

Broncos_OTM
12-30-2010, 03:55 PM
Fu ZBS. Fu to changeing the scheme again. We need continuoty

broncosteven
12-30-2010, 04:21 PM
I think Michael Lombardi summed up the ZBS very well in one of his articles a while back -



What he just described was Denver's offense 2001-2008.

When you have the kind of OL we had from 95-2000 with a mobile QB the ZBS is a great fit. With guys like Orton it would be EPIC FAIL but now that we have Tebow who can be a legit threat at the goalline I would like to see a return to the ZBS.

DLineman can't catch KM 20 yards down field if they are on the ground.

mkporter
12-30-2010, 04:29 PM
When you have the kind of OL we had from 95-2000 with a mobile QB the ZBS is a great fit. With guys like Orton it would be EPIC FAIL but now that we have Tebow who can be a legit threat at the goalline I would like to see a return to the ZBS.

DLineman can't catch KM 20 yards down field if they are on the ground.


Tend to agree some here. If your oline can't hold up in known passing situations, you'd better have a mobile QB. Not sure we need to go back to heavy ZBS though. I think we'll be fine, as long as we maintain continuity.

mkporter
12-30-2010, 04:29 PM
actually since they started the 1st and goal tebow situations, have we been bad in the redzone?

I think we are #1 in goal to go situations this year. Tebow time!

elsid13
12-30-2010, 04:38 PM
There is nothing wrong with ZBS system. You need two good healthy experienced guards and center to effective. That is something that Denver was missing in last five years.

fontaine
12-30-2010, 04:57 PM
When you have the kind of OL we had from 95-2000 with a mobile QB the ZBS is a great fit. With guys like Orton it would be EPIC FAIL but now that we have Tebow who can be a legit threat at the goalline I would like to see a return to the ZBS.

DLineman can't catch KM 20 yards down field if they are on the ground.

I disagree. Our OL looks better largely because Harris/Clady are playing healthy and better. When Tebow takes off running ad hoc, it's been mostly to the left side where Clady has been effective. On a couple of plays the DE just plain lost backside contain and others Clady just stoned his man to the ground allowing Tebow to run unchallenged.

Beadles and in particular, Walton still are pretty weak. Watch them in run blocking where they are especially inept at targetting defenders in the 2nd level. They just run around missing defenders although they do force would be tacklers to change their angles allowing to a little more yardage. But if Walton/Beadles were more effective they would be hitting guys allowing for home run plays. Harris is probably our best blocker on the move right now.

Sooner or later front 7's will learn to be more disciplined against Tebow making the DEs protect the outside limiting what Tebow can do and that's where the inside running game and pass plays should be effective if we had a strong interior. Won't happen this year but next season we'll see if Walton/Beadles pick it up.

strafen
12-30-2010, 05:04 PM
I know McD changed the way our line blocks and suddenly we went from a great line to one of the worst. Ryan Harris was considered amazing a couple of years ago, and Clady didn't look like his usual self. Of course there are many possible factors here, injuries are a strong possibility, but with Kuper, Clady, and Harris all playing beneath the level they'd played at just a couple of years ago, I have often wondered if the power blocking scheme was to blame.

I understood the idea behind the scheme change on the oline--we were terrible in the redzone. But we still are. And now our runningbacks don't look half as good.

I think we have personnel perfectly suited for the zoneblocking scheme, and this could also help someone like Moreno not bust out. I am worried about how good he is going to be.

The question would be--with Dennison gone, are there any coaching candidates out there who can come back in and implement it? Would it be worth doing so?

If the scheme change plays to the strengths of Harris and Kuper that saves us a lot of trouble in terms of the draft allowing us to focus more on defense.

You've got to have the right personnel for the system you want to run.
I thought McDaniels will bring different guys in
Our OL was the same from the the last 3+ years, at least thru McDaniels' first season and a part of this one, and they were doing things that perhaps they didn't feel comfortable about executing it.

That was an area I was surprised McD didn't bring the right people aboard, and I thought that was killer not to have the OL be the cornerstone of your offense during the building process.

Likwid Kerruj
12-30-2010, 05:35 PM
There is nothing wrong with ZBS system. You need two good healthy experienced guards and center to effective. That is something that Denver was missing in last five years.

As well as a great cutback runner (Davis/Portis) who can accelerate upfield instantly off the cut.

elsid13
12-30-2010, 06:08 PM
As well as a great cutback runner (Davis/Portis) who can accelerate upfield instantly off the cut.

We don't need a "great" cutback runner, just one that understand to press the hole and has good feet in the mess.

broncosteven
12-30-2010, 06:17 PM
We don't need a "great" cutback runner, just one that understand to press the hole and has good feet in the mess.

Yep, that is why Shanny got alot of yards out of guys like Olandis Gary and MA and Drones(sp)

~Crash~
12-30-2010, 06:39 PM
I know McD changed the way our line blocks and suddenly we went from a great line to one of the worst. Ryan Harris was considered amazing a couple of years ago, and Clady didn't look like his usual self. Of course there are many possible factors here, injuries are a strong possibility, but with Kuper, Clady, and Harris all playing beneath the level they'd played at just a couple of years ago, I have often wondered if the power blocking scheme was to blame.

I understood the idea behind the scheme change on the oline--we were terrible in the redzone. But we still are. And now our runningbacks don't look half as good.

I think we have personnel perfectly suited for the zoneblocking scheme, and this could also help someone like Moreno not bust out. I am worried about how good he is going to be.

The question would be--with Dennison gone, are there any coaching candidates out there who can come back in and implement it? Would it be worth doing so?

If the scheme change plays to the strengths of Harris and Kuper that saves us a lot of trouble in terms of the draft allowing us to focus more on defense.

That is why I would like to bring back Nailen as the OL coach and have Alex gibbs to work two days a week to help with the game plans and blocking Schemes .

~Crash~
12-30-2010, 06:42 PM
We need to sign Mike Tice away from the Bears!

LOL the bears line still sucks...Hilarious!

~Crash~
12-30-2010, 06:52 PM
I think Michael Lombardi summed up the ZBS very well in one of his articles a while back -



What he just described was Denver's offense 2001-2008.

He was really talking the NFL rule changes 2001. I will say this we never changed when the NFL DL got 20 pounds heavier. We need to get bigger I think you can get bigger and still run the system you just need to invest higher picks . thing is we used smaller guys for other reasons they can be Had late in the draft and there are guys that are naturally strong and are small Hamilton was one of them sure but to anchor you need more size .

broncosteven
12-30-2010, 07:19 PM
I disagree. Our OL looks better largely because Harris/Clady are playing healthy and better. When Tebow takes off running ad hoc, it's been mostly to the left side where Clady has been effective. On a couple of plays the DE just plain lost backside contain and others Clady just stoned his man to the ground allowing Tebow to run unchallenged.

Beadles and in particular, Walton still are pretty weak. Watch them in run blocking where they are especially inept at targetting defenders in the 2nd level. They just run around missing defenders although they do force would be tacklers to change their angles allowing to a little more yardage. But if Walton/Beadles were more effective they would be hitting guys allowing for home run plays. Harris is probably our best blocker on the move right now.

Sooner or later front 7's will learn to be more disciplined against Tebow making the DEs protect the outside limiting what Tebow can do and that's where the inside running game and pass plays should be effective if we had a strong interior. Won't happen this year but next season we'll see if Walton/Beadles pick it up.

I agree the interior is weak right now. Considering there are 2 rookies starting I hope the next HC/GM combo can find a way to upgrade or bring in someone who can push the rooks.

I still love watching the ZBS when I see GB, Houston, Seahags, and Deadskins play.

I watch a lot of duh bears here in Chi-town and it seems that Forte breaks his biggest runs on the outside, they struggle to run inside with Taylor.

I like having the option to run a counter and trap to keep D's honest but it would be nice to see defenders back on the ground while KM picks up more than 20 yards a pop.

Dean
12-31-2010, 06:26 AM
We need to sign Mike Tice away from the Bears!

Against the Giants Tice's O-line was playing at what I believe was a record breajing level. They gave up 9 sacks in one half! Hilarious!

AlienBronco
12-31-2010, 07:22 AM
LOL the bears line still sucks...Hilarious!

Yes, the bears line is still bad, but I am impress by how Martz, and yes Mike Tice Adjusted and got this O-line to produce in the bears running game and pass blocking after the second half of the season. Especially with the talent level on the bears O-line.

fontaine
01-01-2011, 04:49 PM
I agree the interior is weak right now. Considering there are 2 rookies starting I hope the next HC/GM combo can find a way to upgrade or bring in someone who can push the rooks.

I still love watching the ZBS when I see GB, Houston, Seahags, and Deadskins play.

I watch a lot of duh bears here in Chi-town and it seems that Forte breaks his biggest runs on the outside, they struggle to run inside with Taylor.

I like having the option to run a counter and trap to keep D's honest but it would be nice to see defenders back on the ground while KM picks up more than 20 yards a pop.

Well, it just comes down to coaching pure and simple for us right now.

As soon as DEs/OLBs start maintaining their backside responsibilities to keep Tebow in the pocket we should have our RB's coach/OC prepared to call interior pull run plays because there will be less traffic inside with Lloyd stretching the D outside deep. To be fair McCoy did some of this in giving Tebow the option to dump it Buck and run screens. It's not that the interior is doing a much better job than before under Orton, just that Tebow forced Houston's front 7 to honor the outside protection.

It's going to be interesting the direction of the offense/run game in the offseason because there's a lot of options out there but more than anything I hope we get someone who's willing to be balanced and allow to Tebow to learn from his mistakes in passing the ball rather than just playing it safe like we've seen from McCoy so far.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
01-01-2011, 05:33 PM
"I am not a big fan of the zone running scheme being employed in Seattle, Washington and Houston. It had its place in the late 90s, and sure individual rushers like Arian Foster this season can have success. ...But now it has become pretty much obsolete in this sense: When a team running the zone scheme gets behind in the game and the defense knows they have to pass, their offensive line cannot pass protect and they end up getting further behind. The longer the game goes, the lack of size and physical toughness of their line wears down. The entire team becomes soft, and the defense lacks the ability to handle power. The system might have worked back in the day, but being a small offensive line -- or a light line -- does not win when the opponent knows it's a passing game."

WTF is he talking about? I mean '08 we were what atleast top 5 in sacks allowed. Or even as far back as the Griese era we weren't terrible in pass pro. How does this guy get on TV? Blackmail, incredible BJ's? What!?!

What's weird is that all the teams he names have soft DEFENSES. Not soft offenses. Check your $h!*.

listopencil
01-01-2011, 10:00 PM
I think Michael Lombardi summed up the ZBS very well in one of his articles a while back -


"I am not a big fan of the zone running scheme being employed in Seattle, Washington and Houston. It had its place in the late 90s, and sure individual rushers like Arian Foster this season can have success. ...But now it has become pretty much obsolete in this sense: When a team running the zone scheme gets behind in the game and the defense knows they have to pass, their offensive line cannot pass protect and they end up getting further behind. The longer the game goes, the lack of size and physical toughness of their line wears down. The entire team becomes soft, and the defense lacks the ability to handle power. The system might have worked back in the day, but being a small offensive line -- or a light line -- does not win when the opponent knows it's a passing game."


What he just described was Denver's offense 2001-2008.


I can see his points, but that bold part is just stupid. I don't buy that a light O-Line is a malignant cancer that spreads to the Defense.

footstepsfrom#27
01-01-2011, 10:11 PM
People who want to return to the SZB system forget two things; 1) It matters who is coaching it, and the master is gone. When Alex Gibbs was here, we did it better than anyone...later, not as much. 2) When TD was running behind the ZBS, how many other teams were using it? I believe it was just us, maybe Atlanta a little later. That's important, since it means that in any single NFL draft, we were once the only team fishing in the pond that contained the talent needed to man the ZBS. Now we have at least half a dozen teams fishing that pond, and the talent pool has been diluted accordingly. You can no longer count on getting ZBS linemen and backs in the 5th or 6th round. I also agree with Lombardi about the pass blocking. Denver succeded with it because Elway was so mobile, but a guy like Orton would get killed. We could do it with Tebow, but I'd rather just build a nasty, dominating power running game to go with our 250 pound wrecking ball playing QB.

uplink
01-02-2011, 12:08 AM
speaking of the OL, here is a recent article about the rookies
http://www.dailycamera.com/broncos-nfl/ci_16985555?source=rss

pricejj
01-02-2011, 01:40 AM
You can no longer count on getting ZBS linemen and backs in the 5th or 6th round. I also agree with Lombardi about the pass blocking. Denver succeded with it because Elway was so mobile, but a guy like Orton would get killed. We could do it with Tebow, but I'd rather just build a nasty, dominating power running game to go with our 250 pound wrecking ball playing QB.

I heard an interview of Tom Nalen on 87.7 The Ticket a few days ago, he said:

1. He got tired of playing for Gibbs, because Gibbs was difficult to be around.
2. Dennison teaches the exact same thing, but is a more likeable guy (look at how successful he is in Houston with ZBS).
3. He said, "What is Power Blocking? Looks like they were just running more traps and stuff..." He obviously thinks the current O-Line coach just doesn't teach scheme well.
4. He definitely wants to be the O-Line coach.

Shanahan's main weakness was drafting elite talent along the trenches. He always believed you could have an effective line by getting 5th and 6th rounders and teaching them superior scheme, not true. He thought he could turn everyone into Tom Nalen's, who was a late round draft pick. Ex-Broncos say Tom Nalen was the most powerful human they ever met. Usually, the biggest, fastest and most powerful O-Line and D-Lineman go early in the draft just like any other position. You need a powerful line to consistently score in the red zone by running the football. However, Shanahan did prove that effective RB's can be found late in the draft.

Bring in Dennison as HC, and Nalen as Offensive Line Coach to reinstill ZBS. Challenge Walton, Harris, and Beadles with free agents for now...

Still need an OC and the best DAMN Defensive staff we can find :)

footstepsfrom#27
01-02-2011, 02:00 AM
I heard an interview of Tom Nalen on 87.7 The Ticket a few days ago, he said:

1. He got tired of playing for Gibbs, because Gibbs was difficult to be around.
2. Dennison teaches the exact same thing, but is a more likeable guy (look at how successful he is in Houston with ZBS).
3. He said, "What is Power Blocking? Looks like they were just running more traps and stuff..." He obviously thinks the current O-Line coach just doesn't teach scheme well.
4. He definitely wants to be the O-Line coach.
Well we don't have either one do we? First I've heard that Nalen would like to coach here...did he directly say that?
Shanahan's main weakness was drafting elite talent along the trenches. He always believed you could have an effective line by getting 5th and 6th rounders and teaching them superior scheme, not true. He thought he could turn everyone into Tom Nalen's, who was a late round draft pick. Ex-Broncos say Tom Nalen was the most powerful human they ever met. Usually, the biggest, fastest and most powerful O-Line and D-Lineman go early in the draft just like any other position. You need a powerful line to consistently score in the red zone by running the football. However, Shanahan did prove that effective RB's can be found late in the draft.

Bring in Dennison as HC.
Well actually Shanahan relied more on bringing in vets in the O-line than he did drafting late round guys, the the point about scheme isn't true. The scheme wasn't the problem, it was great. The problem was the rest of the NFL started mimicing his success with the ZBS and suddenly instead of having the pick of the litter in the 5th round for backs or linemen that fit his system, he had to share those guys with other teams.. He chose vets though not rookies for most of his linemen choices, picking up Zim, Tony Jones and Stink that way as well as Brian Habib, all of whom started. Nalen of course came in as a late round pick and you can add Dan Neil who came in the draft but he came in the 3rd round. He got Hamilton in the 4th later on. We all know he failed misserably with George Foster, his only #1 pick in the line and the one guy who did fit the power blocker profile. None of these other guys could be considered big power blocker types, including Nalen who was nasty but undersized, as were the others on those lines. Remember than Shanny's team led the NFL in rushing during the course of his stay here, which certainly validates his rep as an offensive guru and a coach who knew how to run the ball, and that certainly WAS about scheme. But as with anything, success is frequently copied, and now that we have numerous other teams selecting from the same kind of talent pool Denver used under Shanny for their linemen and backs, the available talent is much harder to get.

The ZBS was wonderful while it lasted and was unique enough to give most teams trouble, but it's no longer unique, and other teams see it enough to be ready for it. On top of that the advantages of seeking players that fit that system from a pool of players other teams were ignoring is now gone for good. We need to celebrate the ZBS as part of Bronco history and lore, but lets move on and get big, strong, and physical so we don't get manhandled by teams like San Diego any more.

dsmoot
01-02-2011, 05:07 AM
wow...you pick what, 5 games out Shanahan's 14 years as validation? Let's remember that the 97 team had 3 HOF and probably a few borderline HOF's on offense.

Exactly. We had elite talent on the OL. As soon as the retirements started the cracks showed up. We have beat this one to death.

bendog
01-02-2011, 10:24 AM
wow...you pick what, 5 games out Shanahan's 14 years as validation? Let's remember that the 97 team had 3 HOF and probably a few borderline HOF's on offense.

No, shanny's zone blocking scheme was 5-3 against billicheats 3-4. You post that the zone blocking scheme can't succeed against the 3-4, yet it did, and then when you're called on it, you post this? Shanny AVERAGED nine wins a year post elway with the ZBS. come on. Even if there was some merit to Lombardi's link, which has been linked before on this forum btw, as opposed to the whining of a fat failure who doesn't like Den or Shanny and can't get a FO job, your post doesn't support it.

The ZBS won't work if a team is not a running team, but that's sort of an oxymoron

pricejj
01-02-2011, 11:08 AM
First I've heard that Nalen would like to coach here...did he directly say that?
Well actually Shanahan relied more on bringing in vets in the O-line than he did drafting late round guys, the the point about scheme isn't true. The scheme wasn't the problem, it was great.


Yes Nalen did directly say he wanted to coach the O-Line here. Right now he coaches for South High School in Denver.

I know the scheme was great, I am not disputing that. Zimmerman, Tony Jones, Mark Schlereth, were elite free agents and came here to play with Elway to win a Superbowl. Nalen was a great pick at center. That line was great, and continued to stay good until Shanahan's departure. The problem later on in Shanahan's tenure was his inability to punch it in in the redzone which I believe is directly attributable to the lack of talent and size on the offensive line. The Broncos could run it up and down the field all day long between the 20's, but the lack of size prevented us from scoring TD's in the red zone. The scheme is what we need back in Denver, with an emphasis on talent in the trenches.

footstepsfrom#27
01-02-2011, 11:16 AM
Yes Nalen did directly say he wanted to coach the O-Line here. Right now he coaches for South High School in Denver.

I know the scheme was great, I am not disputing that. Zimmerman, Tony Jones, Mark Schlereth, were elite free agents and came here to play with Elway to win a Superbowl. Nalen was a great pick at center. That line was great, and continued to stay good until Shanahan's departure. The problem later on in Shanahan's tenure was his inability to punch it in in the redzone which I believe is directly attributable to the lack of talent and size on the offensive line. The Broncos could run it up and down the field all day long between the 20's, but the lack of size prevented us from scoring TD's in the red zone. The scheme is what we need back in Denver, with an emphasis on talent in the trenches.
You do realize that by it's nature the ZBS is going to use smaller linemen who can't drive block in short yardage situations right? I don't disagree that we need talent in the trenches, but by patterning your line after a ZBS system, you are almost inevitably excludilng the bigger players. In rare instances like Ryan Clady, you have a guy who is both big and super mobile, and run blocking isn't his strength either. We can't have it both ways...either draft bruisers to play in the line and smash people or return to the finesse ways of the past...but just remember that if we go back to the ZBS, we're no longer the only team drafting for that skill set. That means instead of the pick of the litter for that system, we're likely just to get lots of litter.

pricejj
01-02-2011, 12:26 PM
You do realize that by it's nature the ZBS is going to use smaller linemen who can't drive block in short yardage situations right?

You are awesome footsteps...but you are wrong in this case.

NFL Rank Yards Rushing 2010
1. Kansas City Chiefs (ZBS)
2. Oakland Raiders (ZBS)
3. Philadelphia Eagles (Man, Vick has 676 yards)
4. Jacksonville Jaguars (ZBS)

3 out of the top 4 rushing teams in the NFL this year use ZBS. The Jacksonville Jaguars starting guards are 333 lbs and 318 lbs respectively. Shanahan never had huge, powerful, and quick guards, which was pretty much his only problem on the O-Line, and made it difficult to score rushing the ball in the red zone.

fontaine
01-02-2011, 01:13 PM
You are awesome footsteps...but you are wrong in this case.

NFL Rank Yards Rushing 2010
1. Kansas City Chiefs (ZBS)
2. Oakland Raiders (ZBS)
3. Philadelphia Eagles (Man, Vick has 676 yards)
4. Jacksonville Jaguars (ZBS)

3 out of the top 4 rushing teams in the NFL this year use ZBS. The Jacksonville Jaguars starting guards are 333 lbs and 318 lbs respectively. Shanahan never had huge, powerful, and quick guards, which was pretty much his only problem on the O-Line, and made it difficult to score rushing the ball in the red zone.

Exactly. Shanahan was too busy drafting DBs to dedicate 1/2 round picks on OL that were athletic and big.

When he did address the OL high with Harris/Clady it turns out they played at a very high level in the ZBS and now in a more man blocking scheme because they are finally healthy.

I will say that with Walton at Center we can't go back to running the ZBS fulltime. The guy is very limited athletically in his agility.