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footstepsfrom#27
12-29-2010, 10:09 AM
I won't even try to sell this or describe it...it just stands on it's own I think...amazing.

<EMBED height=385 type=application/x-shockwave-flash width=640 src=http://www.youtube.com/v/S1oqIK9cMTY?fs=1&hl=en_US allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always"></EMBED>

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 10:16 AM
He looks good...and definitely worth the pick...but, is he the next Champ? I'm not sold.

SouthStndJunkie
12-29-2010, 10:19 AM
If Denver wants to draft the best player available at their draft pick, then Patrick Peterson should be the choice.

Taco John
12-29-2010, 10:20 AM
That was a hell of a highlight reel. Peterson has got some serious body control.

TheReverend
12-29-2010, 10:20 AM
PerfectAthlete/10

Jesterhole
12-29-2010, 10:21 AM
Looks like a stud, but we need front 7 help worse than anything else.

TheReverend
12-29-2010, 10:22 AM
I could pass on the techno requiem for a dream though...

outdoor_miner
12-29-2010, 10:22 AM
I've learned not to get too excited about highlight videos. :) With that being said, I think this team needs talent more than anything, and if he is head and shoulders above any DL available at our spot, I am fine with taking BPA on defense.

SoDak Bronco
12-29-2010, 10:24 AM
Have we ever drafted the OMANE favorite? I think 60-70% of Posters would be happy with this pick, if we are able to grab him at #2.

footstepsfrom#27
12-29-2010, 10:25 AM
He looks good...and definitely worth the pick...but, is he the next Champ? I'm not sold.
The next Champ? He's Champ with 30 pounds. Elite coverage skills, ultra superior body control, explosive speed, leaps like a jack-rabbit, bigger than Steve Atwater. Did you see the pick on the sidelines? He moves with the grace of a ballerina and the speed of a greyhound. He's going to be a huge threat for someone in the return game as well. He would instantly become the most talented defensive player ever to wear Bronco colors. What i love most about this kid is that you can tell he wants to dominate his opponent.

That's what I want on this defense, guys that want to dominate the opponent.

razorwire77
12-29-2010, 10:26 AM
He reminds me a lot of Charles Woodson when he was at Michigan. The top end speed, body control, supreme confidence is all there. Only thing is he's bigger. Draft this kid, resign Champ and this defense will improve a lot more than reaching for a 1 year wonder D-Lineman at pick # 2. Draft one or two of the many DE/DT that will be available at the top half of the 2nd round.

SoDak Bronco
12-29-2010, 10:28 AM
Can he play safety in the NFL or not? The guy looks too big for a corner

footstepsfrom#27
12-29-2010, 10:28 AM
Peterson has SWAGGA! When's the last time our D had some SWAGGA? ???

TheReverend
12-29-2010, 10:29 AM
he reminds me a lot of charles woodson when he was at michigan. The top end speed, body control, supreme confidence is all there. Only thing is he's bigger. Draft this kid, resign champ and this defense will improve a lot more than reaching for a 1 year wonder d-lineman at pick # 2. Draft one or two of the many de/dt that will be available at the top half of the 2nd round.

^5

bowtown
12-29-2010, 10:30 AM
I could pass on the techno requiem for a dream though...

That's probably always going to be one of his drawbacks. It's a risk.

outdoor_miner
12-29-2010, 10:31 AM
Peterson has SWAGGA! When's the last time our D had some SWAGGA? ???

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/041x5gG3Hp943/340x.jpg

footstepsfrom#27
12-29-2010, 10:31 AM
Can he play safety in the NFL or not? The guy looks too big for a corner
He's over 220 pounds and moves like a guy whose 190. He can play anywhre he wants to. The closest thing I rememver to him was Ronnie Lott, who also had the talent to play both CB and safety, but this kid's 20 pounds bigger than Lott was.

Kaylore
12-29-2010, 10:31 AM
The next Champ? He's Champ with 30 pounds. Elite coverage skills, ultra superior body control, explosive speed, leaps like a jack-rabbit, bigger than Steve Atwater. Did you see the pick on the sidelines? He moves with the grace of a ballerina and the speed of a greyhound. He's going to be a huge threat for someone in the return game as well. He would instantly become the most talented defensive player ever to wear Bronco colors. What i love most about this kid is that you can tell he wants to dominate his opponent.

That's what I want on this defense, guys that want to dominate the opponent.

This is pretty accurate.

Taco John
12-29-2010, 10:34 AM
Just to play devil's advocate...

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Taco John
12-29-2010, 10:36 AM
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ColoradoDarin
12-29-2010, 10:36 AM
He reminds me a lot of Charles Woodson when he was at Michigan. The top end speed, body control, supreme confidence is all there. Only thing is he's bigger. Draft this kid, resign Champ and this defense will improve a lot more than reaching for a 1 year wonder D-Lineman at pick # 2. Draft one or two of the many DE/DT that will be available at the top half of the 2nd round.

Seriously was thinking Charles Woodson while watching the video. I can't imagine having him paired with Champ. We have the ammunition to get back into the first round for a DL, or take a pair in the 2nd.

gtown
12-29-2010, 10:38 AM
I'm sold on this guy. Having watched some LSU games this year and looking at the various highlight videos out there, this guy is a stud. Even if he struggles as an NFL CB, which I don't think he will, he can also excel at safety and as a KR/PR. He has the size and speed to be an asset all over the place.

If you look back at the past ten years of draft and look how many bust DL there have been out there, it is a bit scary. We would be better served looking to fill those gaps in the 2nd and 3rd rounds and bringing in some proven FAs.

peacepipe
12-29-2010, 10:39 AM
Can he play safety in the NFL or not? The guy looks too big for a cornerThe guy ran a 4.37 40 at an LSU work out this past may. That's a damn good 40 time. No need for him to move to safety.

SoDak Bronco
12-29-2010, 10:40 AM
The guy ran a 4.37 40 at an LSU work out this past may. That's a damn good 40 time. No need for him to move to safety.

I'm just saying Safety bc they can have more of an impact on the field, ala Troy Palamu and Ed Reed. Revis Island, Champ are great, but they don't have to account for them if they don't pass there way.

snowspot66
12-29-2010, 10:40 AM
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/041x5gG3Hp943/340x.jpg

Posting pictures of him should be a bannable offense.

Taco John
12-29-2010, 10:41 AM
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footstepsfrom#27
12-29-2010, 10:41 AM
Just to play devil's advocate...

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No more Quinns on this team please! :giggle:

Mile High Shack
12-29-2010, 10:41 AM
you can be the best cornerback in the world and it won't matter if the opposing QB has 10 seconds to throw the ball

He looks good, but our front 7 is just so bad, we can get average cornerbacks and be good if we just manage to put pressure on the QB

Ray Finkle
12-29-2010, 10:43 AM
I really wish they'd trade back and get more picks....

I thought Leslie Ashley would be good....what the f**k to I know.

Pony Boy
12-29-2010, 10:45 AM
No doubt Peterson is a great player but I will continue to beat the same drum.

Our first goal is to win our division and to do that we must put pressure on Rivers and Cassel. You could have Champ at one corner and Peterson at the other and Rivers will still beat our brains out if we give him all day to find a receiver.

snowspot66
12-29-2010, 10:45 AM
you can be the best cornerback in the world and it won't matter if the opposing QB has 10 seconds to throw the ball

He looks good, but our front 7 is just so bad, we can get average cornerbacks and be good if we just manage to put pressure on the QB

None of this is false. However, Champs two best seasons with us were 2005 and 2006. He was dominating every single game and had 8 picks in 05 and 10 in 06. He didn't have any pass rush whatsoever in those years and yet he still had 18 picks and was and still is a great run stopping CB in open space.

If this kid is the closest thing to a sure fire Pro Bowl/Hall of Fame talent you can get in the draft I don't see how you can not draft him. He may never reach that level but you have to try.

I say get Peterson and put the next three picks on the front seven. As bad as our defense is that would probably net us four full starters.

Taco John
12-29-2010, 10:47 AM
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Bronco Vixen
12-29-2010, 10:48 AM
If Denver wants to draft the best player available at their draft pick, then Patrick Peterson should be the choice.

I believe he absolutely should be our top pick. Despite my hatred of the term "shut down corner," when on does live up to the description (as we have had the good grace to experience with champ), they completely change what can be done on defense. Taking away half the field cannot be overstated enough. Plus, these guys tend to play forever.

From what I've been reading, Peterson is the real deal and cannot be passed up. Particularly with a fairly deep DL draft.

Pick Six
12-29-2010, 10:48 AM
Peterson would have to change his number. That's a fact...

LRtagger
12-29-2010, 10:49 AM
I will be upset if we don't land him. IMO he will be the best corner to come out since Champ and/or Woodson (over 10 years ago) and the best kick returner since Hester. You might be talking about the best all around playmaker on defense/special teams since Deion Sanders who was the 5th overall pick over 20 years ago.

This is a very special player.

razorwire77
12-29-2010, 10:51 AM
you can be the best cornerback in the world and it won't matter if the opposing QB has 10 seconds to throw the ball

He looks good, but our front 7 is just so bad, we can get average cornerbacks and be good if we just manage to put pressure on the QB

If we could draft a plug and play defensive lineman (like Suh) in the top 5 that would be ideal, but there isn't a kid we can take that high without substantial risk. Might as well take the bpa. CB is a huge question mark on this team too with the possibility of Champ leaving, Cox doing his best Ben Rothlisberger impression, and Goodman being made of glass.

There are a number of intriguing front 7 prospects that we can draft in the 2nd round that have a lower risk/reward. Players like Jerrell Powe, Bruce Carter, Justin Houston and Allen Bailey to name a few.

Bronco Vixen
12-29-2010, 10:55 AM
you can be the best cornerback in the world and it won't matter if the opposing QB has 10 seconds to throw the ball

He looks good, but our front 7 is just so bad, we can get average cornerbacks and be good if we just manage to put pressure on the QB

This is an excellent point. Hopefully with Elvis & Mays back next year applying pressure at LB and, again, a pretty decently deep DL class coming out, we could still land talent on the line. That said, the CB class is also pretty impressive this year, but Peterson is just jaw-dropping.

bronco_diesel
12-29-2010, 10:55 AM
you can be the best cornerback in the world and it won't matter if the opposing QB has 10 seconds to throw the ball

He looks good, but our front 7 is just so bad, we can get average cornerbacks and be good if we just manage to put pressure on the QB

This is the argument I had been advocating to my friends. However, with the number of holes we have on defense I have come to agree that you take the BPA. I think Peterson is that guy.

Mile High Shack
12-29-2010, 10:55 AM
None of this is false. However, Champs two best seasons with us were 2005 and 2006. He was dominating every single game and had 8 picks in 05 and 10 in 06. He didn't have any pass rush whatsoever in those years and yet he still had 18 picks and was and still is a great run stopping CB in open space.

If this kid is the closest thing to a sure fire Pro Bowl/Hall of Fame talent you can get in the draft I don't see how you can not draft him. He may never reach that level but you have to try.

I say get Peterson and put the next three picks on the front seven. As bad as our defense is that would probably net us four full starters.

we had 35 sacks in 2006 and 27 in 2005, not great, but not bad either.

If I remember, we blitzed a helluva lot too those years so we had pressure on the QB, even if we didn't sack him.

so I'm not so sure I totally agree with you, I think the correlation of pressure and a great CB came together those 2 years if you ask me

Mile High Shack
12-29-2010, 10:57 AM
This is an excellent point. Hopefully with Elvis & Mays back next year applying pressure at LB and, again, a pretty decently deep DL class coming out, we could still land talent on the line. That said, the CB class is also pretty impressive this year, but Peterson is just jaw-dropping.

I'd be fine with getting the kid at our position and then drafting front 7 after that....

I guess if no other Dline player is worth the pick we have, no reason not to take him. We have to address our front 7 so badly though, but with Elvis and Ayers at it, maybe we will be ok enough we can take the kid.

I wouldn't be upset if we took him, that's for sure.

Mediator12
12-29-2010, 10:58 AM
Peterson is the real deal, Period. He is that good and worth a top 5 pick to a team that has a DL IMHO. Is that DEN, HELL NO!

This is an incredible DL class already coming out and should be amazing if the underclassmen like Fairley declare. The DL continues to lack playmakers and DEN finally has a chance to get a top DL. If they stay 3-4, I want Marcel Dareus who is the most Versatile DL with a top Grade. Otherwise, there are several great players later. This is the year to trade down people, I just hope the new CBA is done or no one will even consider it unless the new rookie contract structure is in place.

Smiling Assassin27
12-29-2010, 11:00 AM
Wow, did the guy get beat at all in his college career? How'd those plays look, out of curiosity?

Taco John
12-29-2010, 11:01 AM
I'm going to keep my mind open for awhile. We don't even know which defensive formation we're going to be using next season, so our needs are very much in the air. We actually might have the makings of a pretty good 4-3 if we were to nab a big pressure DE. That would help out our pass coverage too.

Sacks are sexy too.

kdissette
12-29-2010, 11:01 AM
to be honest i dont know how his speed and size is gonna add up in the nfl...seems to me by just looking at him that he has the speed and power of a safety....i could see him getting burned deep in man coverage against some of the faster wrs in the league

Taco John
12-29-2010, 11:04 AM
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uplink
12-29-2010, 11:04 AM
got to take an elite player like Peterson when you have the chance. Fairly is not too bad, but Peterson looks like the real deal - Pro-bowl level defender.

snowspot66
12-29-2010, 11:07 AM
we had 35 sacks in 2006 and 27 in 2005, not great, but not bad either.

If I remember, we blitzed a helluva lot too those years so we had pressure on the QB, even if we didn't sack him.

so I'm not so sure I totally agree with you, I think the correlation of pressure and a great CB came together those 2 years if you ask me

Don't let our defense this year fool you with it's horrible perspective. The 28 in 2005 was damn near dead last in the league and the 35 in 06 was a marginal enough improvement to tie us with several other teams for 15th (just one sack ahead of being 23rd). Our pass rush was bad those years. It's level of suck this year is beyond belief.

*edit* Ultimately I think we'll all be happy with whoever we get. We're so bad in the talent department it'll be pretty damned hard to not upgrade this team even if we just draft the water boy.

~Crash~
12-29-2010, 11:08 AM
I will say this at some point all teams seem to need pass rush and do not get it done. Peterson will help at that point.

footstepsfrom#27
12-29-2010, 11:11 AM
to be honest i dont know how his speed and size is gonna add up in the nfl...seems to me by just looking at him that he has the speed and power of a safety....i could see him getting burned deep in man coverage against some of the faster wrs in the league
He was laser timed by the NFL at 4.37 and reportedly has run as fast as 4.3 flat, and he's still just a junior. He looks like a big Mike Haynes to me.

outdoor_miner
12-29-2010, 11:12 AM
Peterson is the real deal, Period. He is that good and worth a top 5 pick to a team that has a DL IMHO. Is that DEN, HELL NO!

This is an incredible DL class already coming out and should be amazing if the underclassmen like Fairley declare. The DL continues to lack playmakers and DEN finally has a chance to get a top DL. If they stay 3-4, I want Marcel Dareus who is the most Versatile DL with a top Grade. Otherwise, there are several great players later. This is the year to trade down people, I just hope the new CBA is done or no one will even consider it unless the new rookie contract structure is in place.

The problem is - what if they can't trade down? Is Dareus really worth the #2 pick? It just seems like if they stay in a 3-4, and end up at #2, the right DL might not be there to justify the pick...

HorseHead
12-29-2010, 11:14 AM
yes please! Me likey...

Popps
12-29-2010, 11:20 AM
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Yes please.


Let's do the math...

We've had arguably the best CB in the league for years, and our defenses have been swiss cheese with the exception of a year or two, and even those years... we had big problems stopping the run and rushing the passer in the playoffs.

If we draft Peterson, it likely means Champ is gone. (No way we're tying up that kind of $ at CB, alone.) So, we essentially swap out a lock-down CB with a rookie who may eventually be a lock-down CB.

In other words, we're right were we are. This is like cutting Clady and drafting the best LT prospect at #3.

We've got to land a difference-maker in the front 7. I liked the Ayers addition. I think Vickerson and Bannan are keepers. Doom will be back. But, we've GOT to get more talented up front.

As has been pointed out, when you've got an unspectacular defense with a star CB... offenses just simply avoid the star CB. NFL offenses are too wide open these days. Teams can kill you with their TE's, or their 2nd receiver. (Not to mention, of course... their running game.)

Look at the difference Suh has made in Detroit this season. They were dead last in defense, and they moved up something like 10 spots in total D. Still struggling, but if you watch them play, they stay in games because of that pass-rush and disruption up front.

crush17
12-29-2010, 11:24 AM
Isn't there a huge thread already dedicated to Patrick Peterson?

Drek
12-29-2010, 11:29 AM
Peterson is the real deal, Period. He is that good and worth a top 5 pick to a team that has a DL IMHO. Is that DEN, HELL NO!

This is an incredible DL class already coming out and should be amazing if the underclassmen like Fairley declare. The DL continues to lack playmakers and DEN finally has a chance to get a top DL. If they stay 3-4, I want Marcel Dareus who is the most Versatile DL with a top Grade. Otherwise, there are several great players later. This is the year to trade down people, I just hope the new CBA is done or no one will even consider it unless the new rookie contract structure is in place.

Of course the first thing we need to do is trade down. Trading down is almost always the best move a team can make with a top 5 draft pick. But assuming we can't, is the risk associated with Fairley or Dareus worth taking on just to address need at DL?

The only thing this team can afford less than ignoring the DL for yet another draft is selecting a bust at the highest pick in organizational history. Peterson is the least likely to bust candidate in this draft and he's arguably got the highest ceiling.

Beantown Bronco
12-29-2010, 11:31 AM
Isn't there a huge thread already dedicated to Patrick Peterson?

We've got 100 threads dedicated to each of Jay Cutler, Peyton Hillis and Tim Tebow, but you're worried about having 2 for Peterson? :)

Popps
12-29-2010, 11:36 AM
Of course the first thing we need to do is trade down. Trading down is almost always the best move a team can make with a top 5 draft pick. But assuming we can't, is the risk associated with Fairley or Dareus worth taking on just to address need at DL?

The only thing this team can afford less than ignoring the DL for yet another draft is selecting a bust at the highest pick in organizational history. Peterson is the least likely to bust candidate in this draft and he's arguably got the highest ceiling.

But, again... isn't a billion-dollar cornerback a luxury better-suited for a front-seven-rich team?

I just can't see the fervor around drafting the next Champ Bailey RIGHT NOW. I love champ.... he's my favorite. We've got two of his jerseys in the house. But, logically speaking... swapping out Champ for the next Champ at this point just doesn't make sense to me. Not with the problems we're having up front.

peacepipe
12-29-2010, 11:44 AM
to be honest i dont know how his speed and size is gonna add up in the nfl...seems to me by just looking at him that he has the speed and power of a safety....i could see him getting burned deep in man coverage against some of the faster wrs in the league

He runs a 4.37 40, what recievers do you see outrunning him?

footstepsfrom#27
12-29-2010, 11:48 AM
But, again... isn't a billion-dollar cornerback a luxury better-suited for a front-seven-rich team?

I just can't see the fervor around drafting the next Champ Bailey RIGHT NOW. I love champ.... he's my favorite. We've got two of his jerseys in the house. But, logically speaking... swapping out Champ for the next Champ at this point just doesn't make sense to me. Not with the problems we're having up front.
More than anything else this defense needs playmakers. This guy is a playmaker extraordinaire. You don't get many opportunities to add this kind of talent to your team. Two D-line guys in the 2nd sounds good to me.

Rohirrim
12-29-2010, 11:49 AM
The great thing about getting a guy like Peterson (and I do agree he is a phenomenal athlete) is that Broncos fans will be able to see him use those skills right away, chasing receivers all over the field for ten seconds on every play.

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 11:51 AM
I'd rather trade back, pick up a 2nd plus more and take a shot at getting one of Fairley, Dareus or even Quinn as an OLB. Quinn opposite of Doom would be amazing. We could move Ayers to the middle with DJW. That would be one hell of a LBing group. Fairley or Dareus would instantly upgrade our biggest weakness...the Dline.

broncocalijohn
12-29-2010, 11:55 AM
That was a hell of a highlight reel. Peterson has got some serious body control.

I think that highlight reel is before 2010 season! It stated, coming Fall of 2010 so that would mean everything before this season. Dude plays ST and cornerback so another aved position. Our problem is we have so many holes, does this make us that much better of a team defensively? Would a DT or bad ass LB be more of an answer to that question?

broncocalijohn
12-29-2010, 11:57 AM
The great thing about getting a guy like Peterson (and I do agree he is a phenomenal athlete) is that Broncos fans will be able to see him use those skills right away, chasing receivers all over the field for ten seconds on every play.

That will be one tired pup but I see where you are going with this. If Elvis is back, make it 8 seconds only.

Drek
12-29-2010, 11:57 AM
But, again... isn't a billion-dollar cornerback a luxury better-suited for a front-seven-rich team?

I just can't see the fervor around drafting the next Champ Bailey RIGHT NOW. I love champ.... he's my favorite. We've got two of his jerseys in the house. But, logically speaking... swapping out Champ for the next Champ at this point just doesn't make sense to me. Not with the problems we're having up front.

Who's our #2 cornerback right now? An aging Andre Goodman. Its not like we're replacing an good starting corner. Goodman fell off an age related cliff this season and neither Thompson or Vaughn is currently suited for more than nickel and dime duty. Cox is obviously in serious legal limbo.

Drafting Peterson offers an immediate upgrade to the defense. Its not a luxury, its making sure your new multi-million dollar draft baby is going to be an elite level talent.

Bronco Vixen
12-29-2010, 11:58 AM
Yes please.


Let's do the math...

We've had arguably the best CB in the league for years, and our defenses have been swiss cheese with the exception of a year or two, and even those years... we had big problems stopping the run and rushing the passer in the playoffs.

If we draft Peterson, it likely means Champ is gone. (No way we're tying up that kind of $ at CB, alone.) So, we essentially swap out a lock-down CB with a rookie who may eventually be a lock-down CB.

In other words, we're right were we are. This is like cutting Clady and drafting the best LT prospect at #3.

We've got to land a difference-maker in the front 7. I liked the Ayers addition. I think Vickerson and Bannan are keepers. Doom will be back. But, we've GOT to get more talented up front.

As has been pointed out, when you've got an unspectacular defense with a star CB... offenses just simply avoid the star CB. NFL offenses are too wide open these days. Teams can kill you with their TE's, or their 2nd receiver. (Not to mention, of course... their running game.)

Look at the difference Suh has made in Detroit this season. They were dead last in defense, and they moved up something like 10 spots in total D. Still struggling, but if you watch them play, they stay in games because of that pass-rush and disruption up front.

Another very excellent point. I guess the question becomes, will the difference that one of the three DL studs make over and above the second tier guys be larger than than the difference that Peterson can make over and above another CB prospect.

What do people think?

And for those better educated than me, if we're going DL, why not Bowers - who at least on paper seems the most versatile? I don't care for Fairley myself, never liked those with "dirty" label - fair or unfair. Dareus would be hard to pass up as well.

Rohirrim
12-29-2010, 12:00 PM
Well, we could always take the route Shanahan took when he had Elway: HOF QB, best Oline in franchise history, HOF RB - and just score over thirty points every game, usually before half time. For that, you only need an average defense. ;D

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 12:01 PM
Peterson has a shot at being great...but, I'd rather trade back (still get a blue chip player for our biggest weakness [Dline]) and pick up a 2nd and maybe even a 3rd as well. Check out the value chart:

http://www.drafttek.com/tradechart.html

The 2nd pick should be worth a top 10 pick, plus a 2nd and a 3rd. We sure as hell could use those other picks...because they too can end up starting for us. While at the same time...we get a kid like Dareus or Quinn...Wow. That's what the best scenario is in my book.

Now, if you simply can't find anyone to trade back with...then, yes, I think you take the BPA...but, I think when you are as bad as we are on Defense...you have to try and trade back for additional picks!!!

Hercules Rockefeller
12-29-2010, 12:03 PM
If you have a chance to take someone like Peterson, who is the true once-in-a-decade prospect if he declares, then you do it.

You have 2 2nds and a 3rd this year to take Front 7, and there's also the 2012 draft too because this defense is going to take awhile to rebuild.

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 12:03 PM
Another very excellent point. I guess the question becomes, will the difference that one of the three DL studs make over and above the second tier guys be larger than than the difference that Peterson can make over and above another CB prospect.

What do people think?

And for those better educated than me, if we're going DL, why not Bowers - who at least on paper seems the most versatile? I don't care for Fairley myself, never liked those with "dirty" label - fair or unfair. Dareus would be hard to pass up as well.Bowers projects to a 4-3 DE...and poorly to the 3-4. Quinn is a better fit in a 3-4 as an OLB like Doom.

Rohirrim
12-29-2010, 12:04 PM
Peterson has a shot at being great...but, I'd rather trade back (still get a blue chip player for our biggest weakness [Dline]) and pick up a 2nd and maybe even a 3rd as well. Check out the value chart:

http://www.drafttek.com/tradechart.html

The 2nd pick should be worth a top 10 pick, plus a 2nd and a 3rd. We sure as hell could use those other picks...because they too can end up starting for us. While at the same time...we get a kid like Dareus or Quinn...Wow. That's what the best scenario is in my book.

Now, if you simply can't find anyone to trade back with...then, yes, I think you take the BPA...but, I think when you are as bad as we are on Defense...you have to try and trade back for additional picks!!!

I doubt the Broncos will find a trading partner for the #2 pick (if that's what we end up with) unless the Panthers don't take Luck. Then, the barn doors blow open. I doubt anybody would trade up to the 2 spot for Locker or Mallett. The #2 pick is ridiculously expensive. I can't imagine we'll be able to get out of it.

BroncosMT
12-29-2010, 12:05 PM
I doubt the Broncos will find a trading partner for the #2 pick (if that's what we end up with) unless the Panthers don't take Luck. Then, the barn doors blow open. I doubt anybody would trade up to the 2 spot for Locker or Mallett. The #2 pick is ridiculously expensive. I can't imagine we'll be able to get out of it.


You make a valid point....who is available after Luck that even holds that kind of a appeal to trade up? I guess we will know more after the combine but I think trading down and getting value for it won't happen.

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 12:06 PM
If you have a chance to take someone like Peterson, who is the true once-in-a-decade prospect if he declares, then you do it.

You have 2 2nds and a 3rd this year to take Front 7, and there's also the 2012 draft too because this defense is going to take awhile to rebuild.I disagree...seldom do you ever spend a top 5 pick on a CB. Deon Sanders...sure. Champ Bailey...hmm...maybe. Peterson...hmm...maybe.

But, not when you are the worst defense in the NFL and have holes everywhere...and that 2nd pick can be turned into 3 picks with one being a blue chip dline guy!

Hercules Rockefeller
12-29-2010, 12:09 PM
I disagree...seldom do you ever spend a top 5 pick on a CB. Deon Sanders...sure. Champ Bailey...hmm...maybe. Peterson...hmm...maybe.

But, not when you are the worst defense in the NFL and have holes everywhere...and that 2nd pick can be turned into 3 picks with one being a blue chip dline guy!

I'll take the once-in-a-decade prospect and deal with filling the other holes with other picks.

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 12:10 PM
You make a valid point....who is available after Luck that even holds that kind of a appeal to trade up? I guess we will know more after the combine but I think trading down and getting value for it won't happen.If the CBA includes a salary cap for rookies...then several teams will be willing to trade up. It could be a team like NE who has a top 10 pick and several 2's and 3's to play with. They may want a kid like Fairley or Dareus and know he's not going to be there when they pick.

Or...by the time the draft finally gets here...a guy like Newton or Locker may look like a 1b QB to Luck. That very well could happen. Both Newton and Locer will blow it up at the combine. Watch.

broncocalijohn
12-29-2010, 12:10 PM
Yes please.


Let's do the math...

We've had arguably the best CB in the league for years, and our defenses have been swiss cheese with the exception of a year or two, and even those years... we had big problems stopping the run and rushing the passer in the playoffs.

If we draft Peterson, it likely means Champ is gone. (No way we're tying up that kind of $ at CB, alone.) So, we essentially swap out a lock-down CB with a rookie who may eventually be a lock-down CB.

In other words, we're right were we are. This is like cutting Clady and drafting the best LT prospect at #3.

We've got to land a difference-maker in the front 7. I liked the Ayers addition. I think Vickerson and Bannan are keepers. Doom will be back. But, we've GOT to get more talented up front.

As has been pointed out, when you've got an unspectacular defense with a star CB... offenses just simply avoid the star CB. NFL offenses are too wide open these days. Teams can kill you with their TE's, or their 2nd receiver. (Not to mention, of course... their running game.)

Look at the difference Suh has made in Detroit this season. They were dead last in defense, and they moved up something like 10 spots in total D. Still struggling, but if you watch them play, they stay in games because of that pass-rush and disruption up front.

I normally dont bump a whole thread with it being on the same page but this is pretty much how I see it. We have Gooodman/Cox on one side and if we lose Champ, we are downgrading for the next season at CB (if we choose him). We need to get Bailey signed and go front 7.

Hercules Rockefeller
12-29-2010, 12:10 PM
You make a valid point....who is available after Luck that even holds that kind of a appeal to trade up? I guess we will know more after the combine but I think trading down and getting value for it won't happen.

Depending on where Buffalo is (their's and Cincy's SOS are pretty close at this point), someone looking to jump them if Locker or Mallett solidfy themselves as Top 5 picks.

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 12:11 PM
I'll take the once-in-a-decade prospect and deal with filling the other holes with other picks.If there was a once in a decade prospect available...maybe. But, that's not Peterson. Many talent evaluators have the "Prince" rated higher than him!

LRtagger
12-29-2010, 12:11 PM
If you have a chance to take someone like Peterson, who is the true once-in-a-decade prospect if he declares, then you do it.

You have 2 2nds and a 3rd this year to take Front 7, and there's also the 2012 draft too because this defense is going to take awhile to rebuild.

Exactly. Peterson has the potential to be an elite corner for 10-15 years. I would take that all day over reaching for a position of need that has a lesser chance of panning out.

Peterson is as close to a sure thing as there is and thats what you want when you are paying top 3 draft money.

If we decide to trade back, thats fine...but if we reach for a DLman like KC did with Ty Jackson I will be pissed.

Rohirrim
12-29-2010, 12:12 PM
If you have a chance to take someone like Peterson, who is the true once-in-a-decade prospect if he declares, then you do it.

You have 2 2nds and a 3rd this year to take Front 7, and there's also the 2012 draft too because this defense is going to take awhile to rebuild.

That's the best argument I've heard (besides just the BPA argument) for taking Peterson. We're going to need multiple drafts anyway.

Bronco Vixen
12-29-2010, 12:18 PM
Exactly. Peterson has the potential to be an elite corner for 10-15 years. I would take that all day over reaching for a position of need that has a lesser chance of panning out.

Peterson is as close to a sure thing as there is and thats what you want when you are paying top 3 draft money.

If we decide to trade back, thats fine...but if we reach for a DLman like KC did with Ty Jackson I will be pissed.

Yes! Again, these guys seem to be able to play forever without getting injured. Their half-life just seems to be so much longer, which would in combination with being the BPA (short-term gains) and long career (long-term investment) seems most appealing to me. I also think that again, with having a healthy linebacking crew, shutting down half the field, and hopefully getting a decent DL with a later pick, we're going to see huge improvement in the defense overall.

Hercules Rockefeller
12-29-2010, 12:21 PM
If there was a once in a decade prospect available...maybe. But, that's not Peterson. Many talent evaluators have the "Prince" rated higher than him!

Who? Which real talent evaluators have Prince ahead of Peterson?

And by real I'm not talking about every random Internet draft site that pretends to be a real talent evaluator. Hell, the Sporting News has Prince going 17th and Jimmy Smith going at 20th.

Hercules Rockefeller
12-29-2010, 12:21 PM
If the CBA includes a salary cap for rookies...

There's already a salary cap for rookies

Dedhed
12-29-2010, 12:23 PM
you can be the best cornerback in the world and it won't matter if the opposing QB has 10 seconds to throw the ball

He looks good, but our front 7 is just so bad, we can get average cornerbacks and be good if we just manage to put pressure on the QB

I get so tired of this response.

BroncosMT
12-29-2010, 12:26 PM
I get so tired of this response.


Just curious how you would defend that? Seems to make sense....just not sure how you think about it

Dedhed
12-29-2010, 12:26 PM
Many talent evaluators have the "Prince" rated higher than him!

Name two.

TheReverend
12-29-2010, 12:27 PM
I get so tired of this response.

Because it's so wrong?

nickademus
12-29-2010, 12:31 PM
The #2 pick is not going to break the bank this year. The one thing owners and players seem to agree on is that there needs to be a rookie cap that is modeled after the nba. rookies are going to take a huge paycut compaired to previous years. it will be a sloted system making rookies siging easier as well.

Drek
12-29-2010, 12:33 PM
I disagree...seldom do you ever spend a top 5 pick on a CB. Deon Sanders...sure. Champ Bailey...hmm...maybe. Peterson...hmm...maybe.

But, not when you are the worst defense in the NFL and have holes everywhere...and that 2nd pick can be turned into 3 picks with one being a blue chip dline guy!

Of course if we can trade back we should. But there is little guarantee that we can.

Ideal world we trade back to the middle of the top ten, netting a 2012 1st and a 2011 2nd or at least 3rd. Then take someone like Dareus, having missed out on Peterson already, and stock up on future talent. Hell, if we did that I'd strongly be in favor of trading the newly gained 2012 1st come that draft for a 2013 1st and an extra 2nd.

This is why the Patriots own the draft. They continue to deal for picks in future years, let them mature to full market worth, and then trade them off again, all the while gaining a plethora of 2nd and 3rd round value to build depth with.

zdoor
12-29-2010, 12:35 PM
He's a freak of nature. Would really like to see him a Bronco but would also like to see Champ resigned and mentor the kid for a year or 2 with a move to safety for Champ down the road...

BroncosMT
12-29-2010, 12:37 PM
He's a freak of nature. Would really like to see him a Bronco but would also like to see Champ resigned and mentor the kid for a year or 2 with a move to safety for Champ down the road...

I agree with you on that front....just don't think the dollars will match up....as I think Champ would also fill a need at safety that we have so we could kill two birds....just don't think dollars will allow it

Rohirrim
12-29-2010, 12:39 PM
The interesting question is, what if Peterson doesn't come out? And what if Luck doesn't come out? Then, I suppose Locker would climb up the boards (depending on the Combine). I still don't see us being able to trade out of the two spot.

BTW, Peterson says the best forty he ever ran was 4.2 flat.

Pony Boy
12-29-2010, 12:40 PM
If Doom is not 100% we are in trouble and must go DL, and we also need Lendale White back to share the work load with our show pony Moreno. It sure makes the bowl games more interesting when you are shopping with a high draft pick in hand.

bowtown
12-29-2010, 12:41 PM
The interesting question is, what if Peterson doesn't come out? And what if Luck doesn't come out? Then, I suppose Locker would climb up the boards (depending on the Combine). I still don't see us being able to trade out of the two spot.

BTW, Peterson says the best forty he ever ran was 4.2 flat.

What a coincidence, that's what I say my best 40 time is too!

Pony Boy
12-29-2010, 12:42 PM
The interesting question is, what if Peterson doesn't come out? And what if Luck doesn't come out? Then, I suppose Locker would climb up the boards (depending on the Combine). I still don't see us being able to trade out of the two spot.

BTW, Peterson says the best forty he ever ran was 4.2 flat.

Don't forget Cam Newton there will be teams foaming at the mouth to get him.

bronco militia
12-29-2010, 12:43 PM
What a coincidence, that's what I say my best 40 time is too!

Hilarious!

Taco John
12-29-2010, 12:46 PM
Isn't there a huge thread already dedicated to Patrick Peterson?

Get used to that. We're going to see a lot of Patrick Peterson posts on this forum in the next five months... Or forever.


Patrick Peeeeeeetersooooooon!

Dedhed
12-29-2010, 12:46 PM
Just curious how you would defend that? Seems to make sense....just not sure how you think about it

I think it's entirely equal parts. I don't think having a great front 7 is any more important than having a great secondary. What we need is great players, and Peterson is by far the best defensive prospect coming out this year.

Rohirrim
12-29-2010, 12:47 PM
Don't forget Cam Newton there will be teams foaming at the mouth to get him.

If you think Tebow has an awkward motion, watch Cam. Maybe some team with a wildcat hard-on will go for him, but I won't be at all surprised if he drops on draft day. Of course, just his size might keep him high on some boards. I would be shocked if he cracked the top ten.

Pony Boy
12-29-2010, 12:48 PM
What a coincidence, that's what I say my best 40 time is too!

But can you chug a Beer In Under 4.2 Seconds!

Dedhed
12-29-2010, 12:48 PM
Because it's so wrong?

Yes.

Rohirrim
12-29-2010, 12:48 PM
What a coincidence, that's what I say my best 40 time is too!

Sure that's not pecker length?

Dedhed
12-29-2010, 12:50 PM
If you think Tebow has an awkward motion, watch Cam. Maybe some team with a wildcat hard-on will go for him, but I won't be at all surprised if he drops on draft day. Of course, just his size might keep him high on some boards. I would be shocked if he cracked the top ten.

Cam is going to be the next Vince Young. There are more than a couple of things that would concern me with Cam if I were drafting. His throwing motion is only one of them.

snowspot66
12-29-2010, 12:50 PM
But can you chug a Beer In Under 4.2 Seconds!

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CqAPGbBi22w?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CqAPGbBi22w?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Rohirrim
12-29-2010, 12:50 PM
I think it's entirely equal parts. I don't think having a great front 7 is any more important than having a great secondary. What we need is great players, and Peterson is by far the best defensive prospect coming out this year.

The other thing to take into account about Peterson is his ability on STs. For the first time in a long time, the Broncos would have a player where, every time he catches a punt, the crowd would hold its breath.

bronco militia
12-29-2010, 12:51 PM
The other thing to take into account about Peterson is his ability on STs. For the first time in a long time, the Broncos would have a player where, every time he catches a punt, the crowd would hold its breath.

You don't think eddie can go the distance at any moment?

Rohirrim
12-29-2010, 12:51 PM
Cam is going to be the next Vince Young. There are more than a couple of things that would concern me with Cam if I were drafting. His throwing motion is only one of them.

I'd be afraid his daddy would sell his play book.

Rohirrim
12-29-2010, 12:54 PM
You don't think eddie can go the distance at any moment?

I love Eddie, but I think Peterson adds a size and physicality that Eddie can't match, and at the same speed.

Pony Boy
12-29-2010, 12:54 PM
If you think Tebow has an awkward motion, watch Cam. Maybe some team with a wildcat hard-on will go for him, but I won't be at all surprised if he drops on draft day. Of course, just his size might keep him high on some boards. I would be shocked if he cracked the top ten.

He does makes a lot of awkward throws flat footed or even off the wrong foot but they hit the target. There will be lots of talk about tweaking him and turning him into a super-sized Vick.

bronco militia
12-29-2010, 12:56 PM
I'd be afraid his daddy would sell his play book.

:giggle:

Dutch
12-29-2010, 01:41 PM
He's a freak of nature. Would really like to see him a Bronco but would also like to see Champ resigned and mentor the kid for a year or 2 with a move to safety for Champ down the road...

^this. I was waiting for someone to toss this out there. My 'Bro is an LSU alum. We've been watching this kid since he arrived at LSU and both think he will end up THE next dominant CB in the NFL. His return game is powerful and electric (love Eddie, but this kid is strong as an ox as well). As for his speed and coverage ability, he shut down A.J. Green and Julio Jones every time he faced them...last I checked they were two of the top wideout prospects in the upcoming draft. If by chance Cox can stay out of jail (doubt it) and Squid develops into a starting quality CB (think he ends up a great nickle guy myself) then we could always pair him with Bailey at Safety when other teams run the spread or the no-huddle. Woodson was the last Defensive player to win the Heisman, Peterson was in the mix this year. Kid is worthy of a top 5 pick. He is also a great leader on the field and in the locker room. Complete package. Get him.

Drek
12-29-2010, 01:57 PM
The interesting question is, what if Peterson doesn't come out? And what if Luck doesn't come out? Then, I suppose Locker would climb up the boards (depending on the Combine). I still don't see us being able to trade out of the two spot.

BTW, Peterson says the best forty he ever ran was 4.2 flat.

Peterson coming out is one of the worst kept secrets in college football. Last I heard his own teammates were basically treating it like fact.

Dude is jumping, hopefully straight into Broncos orange and blue.

fdf
12-29-2010, 02:03 PM
I could pass on the techno requiem for a dream though...

The first 60 seconds were kind of overdone. I really don't care if he can give tough looks at a camera and draw a slash across his face with his finger . . . over and over.

Exciting player though once you got thru the drama.

Kaylore
12-29-2010, 02:20 PM
Get used to that. We're going to see a lot of Patrick Peterson posts on this forum in the next five months... Or forever.


Patrick Peeeeeeetersooooooon!

:giggle:

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 02:31 PM
There's already a salary cap for rookiesNot in terms of what an individual rookie can make. Bradford became the highest paid NFL player. That isn't going to be the case any more. There will be a limit placed on how much a rookie can make.

Mountain Bronco
12-29-2010, 02:34 PM
I know we need front 7 help, but this kid is a once in 5 year talent. if he is there I think you have to take him.

listopencil
12-29-2010, 02:35 PM
I REALLY, REALLY want a D draft, heavy on D-Line. But some people have already pointed out you can't make a guy be top 5 quality just by picking him in the top 5. From what I have read the only DL in that range wouldn't fit a 3-4. If we were to get this Petersen kid with our first pick and go D-Line with the second I wouldn't be unhappy.

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 02:35 PM
Who? Which real talent evaluators have Prince ahead of Peterson?

And by real I'm not talking about every random Internet draft site that pretends to be a real talent evaluator. Hell, the Sporting News has Prince going 17th and Jimmy Smith going at 20th.Fair enough. You are correct...most have Peterson ahead.

http://walterfootball.com/draftdata.php

I'm just not sold on this kid. He's got all the talent...but how about the brain? For some reason, he reminds me of Laron Landry. Good player...but, hardly great in the NFL.

I'm not saying that I'd pass on him if we had to pick at #2....I'm just saying...

I think we should do everything we can do to trade back and pick up more picks. I actually liked what McD did last year. We ended up with both Thomas and Tebow for our #11 pick. Excellent.

The only thing better (to me) would have been Pauncey/Tebow.

If we can do the same/similar dealing this year...I'm all for it.

listopencil
12-29-2010, 02:38 PM
The first 60 seconds were kind of overdone. I really don't care if he can give tough looks at a camera and draw a slash across his face with his finger . . . over and over.

Exciting player though once you got thru the drama.



Yeah, this. I also hate it when 5 minutes of an 8 minute highlight reel are just repeating plays in slo-mo. I also don't like the clip of that D-Lineman. Fairley? It never shows pre-snap. I can't see what kind of blocking he is going against.

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 02:41 PM
Peterson reminds me of this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKZgHhdrgQk&feature=related

Good pro...but, great...once in a decade???

NO!

peacepipe
12-29-2010, 02:45 PM
Peterson reminds me of this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKZgHhdrgQk&feature=related

Good pro...but, great...once in a decade???

NO!
Your comparing apples & oranges, Landry played safety in college. two differant positions.

Mediator12
12-29-2010, 02:52 PM
If there was a once in a decade prospect available...maybe. But, that's not Peterson. Many talent evaluators have the "Prince" rated higher than him!

Who ???

You should immediately cross that person off your reading list. Prince is real good too, but he is nowhere near the same talent, playmaking ability, and return guy that peterson is!

HILife
12-29-2010, 02:52 PM
He runs a 4.37 40, what recievers do you see outrunning him?

deion sanders, don't he run like a 4.2

Smiling Assassin27
12-29-2010, 02:52 PM
let's just hope he isn't this guy:

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/football/nfl/players/6199.jpg

TheReverend
12-29-2010, 02:56 PM
Yes.

Fully agree.

A game changer is a game changer.

The best DB in the world doesn't matter when you have to cover for 10 seconds, and the best DL in the world doesn't matter when you can't cover for three.

A guy with Peterson's tools brings JUST AS MUCH to the table as someone like Suh (I know, DB4life, shut up :) )

Mediator12
12-29-2010, 03:03 PM
Peterson is worth a top 5 pick to a team with a real DL and the ability to control the LOS in run or pass situations. DEN is NOT NOT NOT that team! Period.

This team needs elite talent on the DL and since Dumervil is a one dimensional OLB in the current system or in a 4-3, they are still in search of the top DL they have needed since Pryce thought he could play LDE better than Under tackle. This defense has had little success since they lost the elite DL that teams had to account. They have had the top CB in the league for several years and that was nowhere near enough.

Please, for the Love of God can they use the top pick on a DL that is actually worth the pick! There are several if they can just figure out which scheme they are going to use before the draft. I can think of 4-5 guys that should be worth the top 10 selections if the juniors declare.

elsid13
12-29-2010, 03:04 PM
Peterson is the real deal, Period. He is that good and worth a top 5 pick to a team that has a DL IMHO. Is that DEN, HELL NO!

This is an incredible DL class already coming out and should be amazing if the underclassmen like Fairley declare. The DL continues to lack playmakers and DEN finally has a chance to get a top DL. If they stay 3-4, I want Marcel Dareus who is the most Versatile DL with a top Grade. Otherwise, there are several great players later. This is the year to trade down people, I just hope the new CBA is done or no one will even consider it unless the new rookie contract structure is in place.

I understand your reasoning, but I just cannot make the case in my mind that Dareues is that much better then DEs behind him to be our top selection. With Peterson, there is no question that he head and shoulder above the CB also coming out.


What we really need is a staff in Dove Valley so the scouts can start finding right type of folks for whatever system is installed.

Drek
12-29-2010, 03:20 PM
Please, for the Love of God can they use the top pick on a DL that is actually worth the pick! There are several if they can just figure out which scheme they are going to use before the draft. I can think of 4-5 guys that should be worth the top 10 selections if the juniors declare.

Will any of those DL offer the same level of immediate impact Peterson offers?

We can draft DL twice in the second and again in the third. We could trade all three picks to move up into the first and grab a DL if necessary.

What we can't do is take back a bad pick at #2 overall. Peterson is to the cornerback position what guys like Calvin Johnson and Suh were to their respective positions. This is the first time in almost two decades that this team has had a shot at that kind of talent. Passing on it for a lesser player based entirely on need is acting like all our DL problems are going to disappear once we add a single rookie.

If we can trade back, passing on Peterson in the process, then of course we should do it. But if we're picking between guys like Fairley and Dareus at #2 or taking Peterson the talent gap is just too massive not to take Peterson.

The new FO should do everything possible to trade down. if that means taking 75 cents on the dollar then do it. Get down a few spots, get more picks, then grab DL. But don't overpick DL and pass on a guy like Peterson to do it.

HAT
12-29-2010, 03:22 PM
In 5 days, Denver might not even be in a position to draft PP. Hopefully, they are and do. I'd even go so far as say I'd rather they draft PP than trade down and acquire extra picks.

Yes, we need quantity but like Herc said this isn't a one year build on defense. They can round out the DL with the two 2nd rounders and still be picking in the late 60's at the top of the 3rd round. With Doom coming back and a yet TBD 2011 FA class, I can live with a return to merely 'servicable' with the front 7. (Hopefully targeting a bad ass ILB in the 20's in 2012)

Denver needs to hit with as many selections as possible. They need studs and stars and Peterson fits that bill.

Like Taco alluded to earlier in the thread....This pick has the potential of making everybody completely forget the Reed meme.

LRtagger
12-29-2010, 03:28 PM
Fully agree.

A game changer is a game changer.

The best DB in the world doesn't matter when you have to cover for 10 seconds, and the best DL in the world doesn't matter when you can't cover for three.

A guy with Peterson's tools brings JUST AS MUCH to the table as someone like Suh (I know, DB4life, shut up :) )

On top of that, when you have a corner with Peterson's ability, you can do other things with your safeties and bring more pressure with blitzes because you dont have to worry about providing help to your corner. It's what we did in 05 and 06 with Champ.

SoDak Bronco
12-29-2010, 03:32 PM
Do we have a date for the 2011 NFL draft?

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 03:32 PM
Your comparing apples & oranges, Landry played safety in college. two differant positions.I'm comparing a guy...who happened to come from LSU who was thought to have been a can't miss, elite talent.

Is he? Well, sure...he's good. Is he a difference maker...no. He certainly was at LSU....he, was well Peterson Like...but, once he hit the big leagues...he's good...but, not great.

Peterson is a 220lb monster CB with alot of talent. Will he ever be in the category of a Champ Bailey. I don't think so.

SoDak Bronco
12-29-2010, 03:36 PM
I'm comparing a guy...who happened to come from LSU who was thought to have been a can't miss, elite talent.

Is he? Well, sure...he's good. Is he a difference maker...no. He certainly was at LSU....he, was well Peterson Like...but, once he hit the big leagues...he's good...but, not great.

Peterson is a 220lb monster CB with alot of talent. Will he ever be in the category of a Champ Bailey. I don't think so.

Well everything I've read is that Peterson is once in a decade type talent. Landry was def. not that highly regarded when he came out of LSU. He may not be a Champ Bailey, but he may be a PP.

peacepipe
12-29-2010, 03:37 PM
I'm comparing a guy...who happened to come from LSU who was thought to have been a can't miss, elite talent.

Is he? Well, sure...he's good. Is he a difference maker...no. He certainly was at LSU....he, was well Peterson Like...but, once he hit the big leagues...he's good...but, not great.

Peterson is a 220lb monster CB with alot of talent. Will he ever be in the category of a Champ Bailey. I don't think so.Outside of reed & polomalue safetys rarely ever make a big impact in the NFL,if any impact at all.

HAT
12-29-2010, 03:42 PM
Do we have a date for the 2011 NFL draft?

Not officially but I'd imagine 4/28. It's usually the last weekend in April and now that the draft ends on a Saturday...That Saturday is 4/30.

Maybe they move it up to 4/21 though since that 'weekend' (Sunday) is in May.

Easter is on 4/24 though so who knows?

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 03:58 PM
Outside of reed & polomalue safetys rarely ever make a big impact in the NFL,if any impact at all.

Deion sanders - went 5th
Champ Bailey - went 7th
Rod Woodson - went 10th
Darrell Revis - went 14th
Charles Woodson - went 4th
Nnamdi Asomugha - went 31st

Rarely...ever does a CB go in the top 5. And going #2 is unheard of....and a major REACH!

Kiper gets it:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/insider/news/story?id=5966850&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl %2fdraft2011%2finsider%2fnews%2fstory%3fid%3d59668 50

Fairley is our guy! He's the perfect 5 technique player and a top 5 pick!

HILife
12-29-2010, 04:00 PM
Peterson reminds me of this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKZgHhdrgQk&feature=related

Good pro...but, great...once in a decade???

NO!

It's been well established that he can't cover. Peterson can cover.

oubronco
12-29-2010, 04:04 PM
We passed on Ed Reed do we really want to pass on another great DB/S

peacepipe
12-29-2010, 04:16 PM
Deion sanders - went 5th
Champ Bailey - went 7th
Rod Woodson - went 10th
Darrell Revis - went 14th
Charles Woodson - went 4th
Nnamdi Asomugha - went 31st

Rarely...ever does a CB go in the top 5. And going #2 is unheard of....and a major REACH!

Kiper gets it:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/insider/news/story?id=5966850&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl %2fdraft2011%2finsider%2fnews%2fstory%3fid%3d59668 50

Fairley is our guy! He's the perfect 5 technique player and a top 5 pick!I don't think so,not at #2. now that would be an overreach. if we trade down to 5 or 6 than maybe.

Hercules Rockefeller
12-29-2010, 04:18 PM
Not in terms of what an individual rookie can make. Bradford became the highest paid NFL player. That isn't going to be the case any more. There will be a limit placed on how much a rookie can make.

Yes, that's called a rookie wage scale and that's not a salary cap. Again, there is already a rookie cap in place.

Hercules Rockefeller
12-29-2010, 04:21 PM
Deion sanders - went 5th
Champ Bailey - went 7th
Rod Woodson - went 10th
Darrell Revis - went 14th
Charles Woodson - went 4th
Nnamdi Asomugha - went 31st

Rarely...ever does a CB go in the top 5. And going #2 is unheard of....and a major REACH!


Champ might have gone 7th, but if IIRC, he was the 1st defensive player drafted that year.

Karenin
12-29-2010, 04:24 PM
Deion sanders - went 5th
Champ Bailey - went 7th
Rod Woodson - went 10th
Darrell Revis - went 14th
Charles Woodson - went 4th
Nnamdi Asomugha - went 31st

Rarely...ever does a CB go in the top 5. And going #2 is unheard of....and a major REACH!

Kiper gets it:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/insider/news/story?id=5966850&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl %2fdraft2011%2finsider%2fnews%2fstory%3fid%3d59668 50

Fairley is our guy! He's the perfect 5 technique player and a top 5 pick!

Are you retarded? Don't answer that, you are. If the 1999 draft happened again, do you not think that Cleveland might pick Champ 1st instead of Tim Couch? Or Cincinnati might take him 3rd instead of Akili Smith? Just because he wasn't drafted 3rd overall doesn't mean he doesn't have the talent to be drafted in that spot.

Again, do you think the Lions may have wished they drafted Asoumagha 2nd overall instead of Charles Rogers? Or the Jets 4th overall instead of Dwayne Robertson? I could go on and on.

Your point is horrible and you are an idiot.

TheReverend
12-29-2010, 04:32 PM
Peterson is worth a top 5 pick to a team with a real DL and the ability to control the LOS in run or pass situations. DEN is NOT NOT NOT that team! Period.

This team needs elite talent on the DL and since Dumervil is a one dimensional OLB in the current system or in a 4-3, they are still in search of the top DL they have needed since Pryce thought he could play LDE better than Under tackle. This defense has had little success since they lost the elite DL that teams had to account. They have had the top CB in the league for several years and that was nowhere near enough.

Please, for the Love of God can they use the top pick on a DL that is actually worth the pick! There are several if they can just figure out which scheme they are going to use before the draft. I can think of 4-5 guys that should be worth the top 10 selections if the juniors declare.

I swear I'm going to drive up there and smack you in the face, Matt. :kiss:

This team needs elite TALENT on the defensive side of the ball, regardless of position... period.

Beantown Bronco
12-29-2010, 04:39 PM
This pick has the potential of making everybody completely forget the Reed meme.

Or make it 10x worse....for two reasons:

"We coulda had a DB threesome of Champ, Peterson and Reed!"

or

"We coulda had [name anyone picked after the #2 pick in 2011 that has a great rookie year]"

Think about it. We were picking around #20 when Lelie was picked over Reed. At least we didn't have to worry about "passing" on the top 19 or so guys and having to hear all the what if's. Picking at #2? God help us if our pick busts because unless every pick in the 2011 pick is a bust, someone will play the "But Ed Reed" game.

elsid13
12-29-2010, 04:56 PM
Deion sanders - went 5th
Champ Bailey - went 7th
Rod Woodson - went 10th
Darrell Revis - went 14th
Charles Woodson - went 4th
Nnamdi Asomugha - went 31st

Rarely...ever does a CB go in the top 5. And going #2 is unheard of....and a major REACH!

Kiper gets it:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/insider/news/story?id=5966850&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl %2fdraft2011%2finsider%2fnews%2fstory%3fid%3d59668 50

Fairley is our guy! He's the perfect 5 technique player and a top 5 pick!

If you are going to cite helmet head as an expert, I recommend you read what he writes:

"Fairley has simply dominated. He often was a force even while not 100 percent. Epitomizes ideal penetrating 4-3 tackle."

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 05:04 PM
Are you retarded? Don't answer that, you are. If the 1999 draft happened again, do you not think that Cleveland might pick Champ 1st instead of Tim Couch? Or Cincinnati might take him 3rd instead of Akili Smith? Just because he wasn't drafted 3rd overall doesn't mean he doesn't have the talent to be drafted in that spot.

Again, do you think the Lions may have wished they drafted Asoumagha 2nd overall instead of Charles Rogers? Or the Jets 4th overall instead of Dwayne Robertson? I could go on and on.

Your point is horrible and you are an idiot.**** off idiot! Hindsite doesn't mean **** before the pick happens. My point is...you don't spend a top 5 pick on a CB. And, Patrick Peterson is not a sure thing.

Our biggest need (by far) for the past 15yrs, has been DLINE. Every year, there are idiots like you who cry for something else. And every year, we have the worst DLINE in the NFL. You don't change that with just 2nd/3rd round picks. You change that with 1st round talent.

We've had the best CB in the league for quite some time...and right along with him...we've had one of the worst defenses in the league. Why?

Zero pass rush and terrible run defense. We have a chance to get one of the best DLINEMAN...and we're going to take a CB.

Gawd I hope not EINSTEIN!

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 05:06 PM
If you are going to cite helmet head as an expert, I recommend you read what he writes:

"Fairley has simply dominated. He often was a force even while not 100 percent. Epitomizes ideal penetrating 4-3 tackle."He recognizes that Fairley is a top 5 talent. Sure, he projects him to a 4-3...but, others say he's the best 5 technique guy in the draft...even better than Dareus. Of which, I'd take either guy!!!

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 05:08 PM
Yes, that's called a rookie wage scale and that's not a salary cap. Again, there is already a rookie cap in place.The point was and is...that with a CAP on rookie salaries....there will be more willingness to trade up into the top 10.

Is that clear enough for you?

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 05:10 PM
I don't think so,not at #2. now that would be an overreach. if we trade down to 5 or 6 than maybe.Agreed. I think we need to trade down as well.

The big question is...whether Carolina flushes Clausen already. If not, then, we will have a pick of trade partners.

Same goes...if Locker regains his preseason hype or if someone falls in love with Cam Newton.

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 05:11 PM
The irony about all of this?

We will beat the Chargers this weekend!

And, then we'll see who is the best #5 pick in the draft.

broncswin
12-29-2010, 05:38 PM
If we can get him...then it is real simple...YOU GET HIM...if we let this guy get away, he will haunt us in our dreams. I was not in love with the pick when I first heard the idea, but after reading up on the guy and watching highlight reels I am on board 110%. Like another poster mentioned earlier, we need some swagger back on this team, some dirty, some "I'm gonna knock you the fuc out and eat your damn family". I am sick of missed tackles and losing the physical battle every week!!

Bronco Yoda
12-29-2010, 05:45 PM
I want to build an elite D-line with depth as our #1 priority. Anything else is the same old BS.

LRtagger
12-29-2010, 05:52 PM
Kiper gets it:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/insider/news/story?id=5966850&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl %2fdraft2011%2finsider%2fnews%2fstory%3fid%3d59668 50

Fairley is our guy! He's the perfect 5 technique player and a top 5 pick!

Oh you mean the same Kiper that said Tebow is a 4th round Hback? The same Kiper that said Jamarcus Russel is the next John Elway? That Kiper? I wouldnt trust anything that clown says.

Before last year, DT's were not traditionally taken in the top 5, either (and the ones that have been have not been very good)...but there were two of them taken in the top 3 in 2010 - because they were elite talents. You dont pass on elite talent just because they arent traditionally taken that high. Most boards have him as the 2nd or 3rd best player in the draft.

If they dont have him rated as the best player when they pick, then whatever...but if he's rated as our bpa and we pass just because he's a corner and corners dont get taken in the top 5 traditionally, then we didnt hire the right guys to run the personel side of this organization.

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 06:08 PM
Oh you mean the same Kiper that said Tebow is a 4th round Hback? The same Kiper that said Jamarcus Russel is the next John Elway? That Kiper? I wouldnt trust anything that clown says.

Before last year, DT's were not traditionally taken in the top 5, either (and the ones that have been have not been very good)...but there were two of them taken in the top 3 in 2010 - because they were elite talents. You dont pass on elite talent just because they arent traditionally taken that high. Most boards have him as the 2nd or 3rd best player in the draft.

If they dont have him rated as the best player when they pick, then whatever...but if he's rated as our bpa and we pass just because he's a corner and corners dont get taken in the top 5 traditionally, then we didnt hire the right guys to run the personel side of this organization.I understand your logic...but, let me ask you this.

Most boards have Green listed as a top 5 pick. Some have him higher than Peterson. So, if Green is still there when we pick...and he is rated as a higher talent than Peterson etc....do you take Green?

peacepipe
12-29-2010, 06:15 PM
**** off idiot! Hindsite doesn't mean **** before the pick happens. My point is...you don't spend a top 5 pick on a CB. And, Patrick Peterson is not a sure thing.
Our biggest need (by far) for the past 15yrs, has been DLINE. Every year, there are idiots like you who cry for something else. And every year, we have the worst DLINE in the NFL. You don't change that with just 2nd/3rd round picks. You change that with 1st round talent.

We've had the best CB in the league for quite some time...and right along with him...we've had one of the worst defenses in the league. Why?

Zero pass rush and terrible run defense. We have a chance to get one of the best DLINEMAN...and we're going to take a CB.

Gawd I hope not EINSTEIN!

there's no such thing as a sure thing regardless of position or where a player is drafted.

Requiem
12-29-2010, 06:20 PM
I see Hamrob is hitting the bottle hard.

Peterson is a superior prospect to any of the defensive lineman coming out as of right now. Dareus is the only one anyone could make a legitimate argue for drafting that early because he actually fits the 3-4 and has a lot of versatility. The others, not so much.

I can't believe people are so short-sighted. Getting Peterson at #2 doesn't mean our DL is ignored. We have three other early picks to invest on DL. And what kind if impact do you expect a rookie defensive lineman to have? Just curious.

Requiem
12-29-2010, 06:22 PM
Most boards have Green listed as a top 5 pick. Some have him higher than Peterson. So, if Green is still there when we pick...and he is rated as a higher talent than Peterson etc....do you take Green?

No, because our wide receivers clearly aren't a problem whereas our secondary is. Any other brain busters?

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 06:27 PM
No, because our wide receivers clearly aren't a problem whereas our secondary is. Any other brain busters?Our secondary is only a problem...because we have zero pass rush! Add to that...the fact that we can't stop the run....and it's clear where our primary needs fall.

I hope that doesn't bust your brain!

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 06:28 PM
I see Hamrob is hitting the bottle hard.

Peterson is a superior prospect to any of the defensive lineman coming out as of right now. Dareus is the only one anyone could make a legitimate argue for drafting that early because he actually fits the 3-4 and has a lot of versatility. The others, not so much.

I can't believe people are so short-sighted. Getting Peterson at #2 doesn't mean our DL is ignored. We have three other early picks to invest on DL. And what kind if impact do you expect a rookie defensive lineman to have? Just curious.You called it! :giggle:

Requiem
12-29-2010, 06:39 PM
Our secondary is only a problem...because we have zero pass rush! Add to that...the fact that we can't stop the run....and it's clear where our primary needs fall.

I hope that doesn't bust your brain!

So what prospects are you advocating for taking on the DL at #2 overall.

Please don't tell me you want Nick Fairley, a premier 1 gap player in a nickel defense as a pass-rusher to fix our woes in a 3-4.

Mediator12
12-29-2010, 06:52 PM
I swear I'm going to drive up there and smack you in the face, Matt. :kiss:

This team needs elite TALENT on the defensive side of the ball, regardless of position... period.

Peterson may well be the best CB to come out since Champ, I believe that is fair. However, I am going to go directly to dove Valley and smack someone in the head if they pick a shutdown CB over one of the many DL available in this draft who needs to be picked.

Seriously, I love CB's but the best CB's in the league are still getting toasted when they have DL that are average and below. See, Asomugha, Revis, Champ, Woodson. How many of those guys have a ring? How many have ever taken their team to a SB? They are difference makers, but not the key cog in a defense, despite it being a passing league.

Asomugha has never seen the playoffs in 8 years, let alone the SB. Revis has a slim chance for the SB this year. Champ has missed the playoffs four years running and the times he did with DEN Manning still scored over 40+ on them and Pit threw all over them in the AFCCG. Woodson has never tasted it, in fact his closest was with the Raiders and the Tuck game in Foxboro.

I get the lets draft the once in a lifetime Defensive player or BPA argument, I believe in that wholeheartedly. I also believe in exceptions to the rule, and this is one of them. This would be a HUGE waste of talent again if this kid comes to DEN without a better DL. I would pick him in a heartbeat if they had ONE SINGLE PIECE on the DL in place and could keep building for the future. The problem is they still just have guys and they are not better than the sum of their parts.

There are some amazing Junior DL in Dareus, Fairley, JJ Watt. There are also seniors like Adrian Clayborn, Cameron Jordan, and Stephen Paea. If the juniors declare that is a ton of readily available DL talent that would severely upgrade this teams total talent. If they pass on another draft with the ability to secure the trenches on the defensive side of the ball, and pick a Shutdown CB I will quit watching them. They have been abused on the DL for 7 damn years and its time to learn the lesson.

Drek
12-29-2010, 07:05 PM
Med, which of those DL worth a top 5 pick do you think can step in and play at a high level from day one?

I have serious reservations about Fairley myself. Very little track record to work from there. Lot to like in Dareus, especially if we stay with a 3-4, but is he a difference maker from day one a la Suh?

If as many juniors jump out it only increases the chances that we find guys like Clayborn or Paea sliding to the early 2nd where we'll have two picks waiting to make a move.

The goal first and foremost should be to trade down to where one of the DL is better value and recoup some additional value in the process. When that is not an option is when this conundrum comes up.

Atwater His Ass
12-29-2010, 07:07 PM
It just amazing with the proven history of this team on the defensive side of the ball, that people are advocating taking a CB over DL or even LB.

Dagmar
12-29-2010, 07:13 PM
It just amazing with the proven history of this team on the defensive side of the ball, that people are advocating taking a CB over DL or even LB.

The concern is we are going to be picking very high and we are going to reach for need. I'd rather trade down gain lots of picks in the 1st three rounds and pick a bunch of excellent prospects.

oubronco
12-29-2010, 07:15 PM
A perfect example would be the Vikings D-line destroying the Eagles

oubronco
12-29-2010, 07:16 PM
The concern is we are going to be picking very high and we are going to reach for need. I'd rather trade down gain lots of picks in the 1st three rounds and pick a bunch of excellent prospects.

Amen Brotha but if there is a dominating D-linemen you have to take him now who that is I don't know exactly

Mediator12
12-29-2010, 07:19 PM
Med, which of those DL worth a top 5 pick do you think can step in and play at a high level from day one?

I have serious reservations about Fairley myself. Very little track record to work from there. Lot to like in Dareus, especially if we stay with a 3-4, but is he a difference maker from day one a la Suh?

If as many juniors jump out it only increases the chances that we find guys like Clayborn or Paea sliding to the early 2nd where we'll have two picks waiting to make a move.

The goal first and foremost should be to trade down to where one of the DL is better value and recoup some additional value in the process. When that is not an option is when this conundrum comes up.

Dareus and JJ Watt in the current system because of their versatility. Dareus played the whole year on a bad ankle, yet still was heads an shoulders above healthy players. Both can two gap or penetrate from the nickel rush packages. They are both complete DL. There are others if they change schemes again.

However, I really do hope they can trade back like you said. The top 3 picks are usually QB and OT happy. This year the talent is deep in the DL and dropping back gives you ammo to trade up for another DL which they need.

oubronco
12-29-2010, 07:21 PM
I really like Dareus as he is schooled in the 5 tech DE spot and excells there and that's definitely a need for us

ohiobronco2
12-29-2010, 07:25 PM
Amen Brotha but if there is a dominating D-linemen you have to take him now who that is I don't know exactly

I don't believe there is a Suh in this draft. That's the unfortunate thing. I'll wait till after the combine to make some determinations. I fear the one year wonder tag could apply to Fairley. From what I've been told Dareus hasn't really lived up to expectations this year either. Luckily, many of these prospects will be on display over the next couple of weeks. At this point, I'd trade back a little and take the best D lineman available. Being a Big 10 fan I'm a little biased, but I'd actually like to trade back and take a player like Watt, then try and add Kerrigan with our next pick. He'd boost our pass rush. What are people's opinions on Ayers, would he be decent with Doom on the other side?

Taco John
12-29-2010, 07:38 PM
I REALLY, REALLY want a D draft, heavy on D-Line. But some people have already pointed out you can't make a guy be top 5 quality just by picking him in the top 5. From what I have read the only DL in that range wouldn't fit a 3-4. If we were to get this Petersen kid with our first pick and go D-Line with the second I wouldn't be unhappy.


I'll be shocked and suprised if we don't switch back to a 4-3 next season to better take advantage of the talent that we already have on the roster. We are nowhere close to fielding an even middle of the pack 3-4 right now.

Bronco Yoda
12-29-2010, 07:44 PM
A perfect example would be the Vikings D-line destroying the Eagles

That was fun watching that unit. Now THATS what I'm talking about.

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 07:47 PM
So what prospects are you advocating for taking on the DL at #2 overall.

Please don't tell me you want Nick Fairley, a premier 1 gap player in a nickel defense as a pass-rusher to fix our woes in a 3-4.Fairley plays the 5 technique at Auburn and would greatly upgrade our Dline. I like Dareus too.

Like I've said...I'd try my very best to trade back and pick up more picks. That should be the gameplan.

I would even consider trading out of the top 10 if the value is there...2 1's and a 2nd. Quinn would be a dynamite OLB opposite of Doom and we could move Ayers inside where he can specialize in stopping the run.

oubronco
12-29-2010, 07:49 PM
Fairley plays the 5 technique at Auburn and would greatly upgrade our Dline. I like Dareus too.

Like I've said...I'd try my very best to trade back and pick up more picks. That should be the gameplan.

I would even consider trading out of the top 10 if the value is there...2 1's and a 2nd. Quinn would be a dynamite OLB opposite of Doom and we could move Ayers inside where he can specialize in stopping the run.

That's interesting I haven't heard anyone suggest this

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 07:52 PM
I'll be shocked and suprised if we don't switch back to a 4-3 next season to better take advantage of the talent that we already have on the roster. We are nowhere close to fielding an even middle of the pack 3-4 right now.If that truly is the case Taco...then the hell with Peterson...let's trade down and get both Bowers and Quinn!!!

Taco John
12-29-2010, 07:55 PM
If that truly is the case Taco...then the hell with Peterson...let's trade down and get both Bowers and Quinn!!!

I guess we'll see if that's the case. That's one of the major questions to be answered this offseason. I expect a 3-4 vs. 4-3 debate to heat up once some of the fog clears on the Elway announcement and the subsequent head coach search.

broncocalijohn
12-29-2010, 08:03 PM
The concern is we are going to be picking very high and we are going to reach for need. I'd rather trade down gain lots of picks in the 1st three rounds and pick a bunch of excellent prospects.

We dont have to fall very far in the first round to get a 2nd round pick (or more). I want defense galore with a RB thrown in in late 2nd but prefer a 3rd round if we get one in trade.

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 08:16 PM
I guess we'll see if that's the case. That's one of the major questions to be answered this offseason. I expect a 3-4 vs. 4-3 debate to heat up once some of the fog clears on the Elway announcement and the subsequent head coach search.

What will Fassel do? Weren't we running a 3-4 when Fassel was here? And, weren't both the Giants and Ravens running a 3-4?

SoDak Bronco
12-29-2010, 08:23 PM
He recognizes that Fairley is a top 5 talent. Sure, he projects him to a 4-3...but, others say he's the best 5 technique guy in the draft...even better than Dareus. Of which, I'd take either guy!!!

YOU DON"T DRAFT A 5 Tech in the top 5. UNLESS YOU THINK TYSON JACKSON WAS A GOOD PICK. NO NO NO

elsid13
12-29-2010, 08:24 PM
What will Fassel do? Weren't we running a 3-4 when Fassel was here? And, weren't both the Giants and Ravens running a 3-4?

It was base 4-3 with cover 2 look for both the giants and broncos during Fassel time.

Requiem
12-29-2010, 08:37 PM
Fairley plays the 5 technique at Auburn and would greatly upgrade our Dline.

No he does not. Stop talking out your ass, because your mouth knows better.

Drek
12-29-2010, 08:38 PM
Dareus and JJ Watt in the current system because of their versatility. Dareus played the whole year on a bad ankle, yet still was heads an shoulders above healthy players. Both can two gap or penetrate from the nickel rush packages. They are both complete DL. There are others if they change schemes again.

However, I really do hope they can trade back like you said. The top 3 picks are usually QB and OT happy. This year the talent is deep in the DL and dropping back gives you ammo to trade up for another DL which they need.

To me trading down is the first option, even if it means taking 75 cents on the dollar. You hear all the time how teams can't trade back but then you hear after the draft they wanted full chart value for that top 5 pick.

If they think Dareus is the best option available (very possible) for their needs but are aware that Peterson is the best player available at their position (or someone else like Cam Newton) then why just overpick Dareus? If all we get from moving back out of #2 to say #5 is an extra second but we get Dareus AND an extra second then thats obviously better than just taking Dareus #2.

That said, if they're too stubborn to give up "chart value" to gain real world value that is when I'd rather take the best guy we can slot into a starting job (Peterson in this case) instead of passing on a guy like that simply based on need (however massive it might be).

What I'm really hoping though is that all of this is irrelevant after this Sunday when Tebow leads the Broncos to his first divisional win over San Diego, so we're sitting at ~#5 which is a great time to grab Dareus.

strafen
12-29-2010, 09:00 PM
Can he play safety in the NFL or not? The guy looks too big for a corner

No kiddin' man. I thought he was a safety.
The guy will make a great safety, I'd bet

Los Broncos
12-29-2010, 09:07 PM
Yeah he does look big for a corner, he could make a good safety like an Ed Reed type.

strafen
12-29-2010, 09:10 PM
Yeah he does look big for a corner, he could make a good safety like an Ed Reed type.

Kind of like him.
Not to say he should be a safety, but Denver has had a solid history of great safeties.
I'd definitely like his chances to be great...

Los Broncos
12-29-2010, 09:13 PM
Kind of like him.
Not to say he should be a safety, but Denver has had a solid history of great safeties.
I'd definitely like his chances to be great...

But really we need defensive line help not a corner.

No more of this picking up practice guys or scrubs from other teams.

Rother8
12-29-2010, 09:16 PM
Ever since I realized that the Bengals have two of the best corners in the league, I don't want to draft a CB top 5/10. DT please.

strafen
12-29-2010, 09:20 PM
But really we need defensive line help not a corner.

No more of this picking up practice guys or scrubs from other teams.I agree. We need a shot of youth and talent up front.
Auburn is yet to play for the national title. (Jan. 10th)
A chance for some of us to take a first look at Nick Fairley

ColoradoDarin
12-29-2010, 09:44 PM
I'll be shocked and suprised if we don't switch back to a 4-3 next season to better take advantage of the talent that we already have on the roster. We are nowhere close to fielding an even middle of the pack 3-4 right now.

I'd really be surprised if we did switch back. Our best defensive player is a 3-4 OLB, who in a 4-3 is relegated to only 3rd down passing situations.

Dedhed
12-29-2010, 09:47 PM
Fairley is our guy! He's the perfect 5 technique player and a top 5 pick!

Taking Fairley over Peterson would be absurd.

Dutch
12-29-2010, 09:58 PM
I'd really be surprised if we did switch back. Our best defensive player is a 3-4 OLB, who in a 4-3 is relegated to only 3rd down passing situations.

I think you're selling Doom short. IF (depending on HC/DC) we go back to a 4-3, I don't see why Ayers/Doom couldn't be our version of Indy's Mathis/Freeney. Doom has improved as a player against the run and I don't feel like he is the liability there that he was in his first couple of seasons.

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 09:59 PM
Taking Fairley over Peterson would be absurd.


Read this:
http://www.drafttek.com/CMDRound1.asp

Dutch
12-29-2010, 10:02 PM
Taking Fairley over Peterson would be absurd.

Agreed. Fairley is also an ass and a violation/suspension waiting to happen. I live in SEC country. The Alabama game and ESPN have turned Fairley into a wonder. I've seen games where he vanished. I'll be interrested to see what he will do against Oregon. I think that game may turn out to be the best one of the bowl season.

Dutch
12-29-2010, 10:05 PM
Read this:
http://www.drafttek.com/CMDRound1.asp

Who the F is Scott Nelson?

Taco John
12-29-2010, 10:10 PM
I'd really be surprised if we did switch back. Our best defensive player is a 3-4 OLB, who in a 4-3 is relegated to only 3rd down passing situations.

I can see where people are coming from with that perspective too, but whether he's in a 3-4 or a 4-3, Dumervil is very good at one thing: getting to the quarterback on 1st and 3rd downs. So whether that happens in a 3-4 defense, or in a 4-3 defense (as a pass rush specialist ala DT), I don't see where the formation matters so much where Elvis is concerned. Just point the guy in the right direction on the right down.

schaaf
12-29-2010, 10:12 PM
We need d-line help BAD!!!! with that said how often does a d lineman that is picked in the top 5 even turn out?? look at Tyson Jackson. Suh and Mario Williams are about the only ones that have turned out.

Peterson will be a star in this league. We can easily devote our second round picks to line.

We need D-line help but we also need help at safety/corner look at Dawkins and Hill.
Dawkins isn't getting younger and Mcbath (who I think could be a player) can't stay on the field for more than a half

Dedhed
12-29-2010, 10:13 PM
Read this:
http://www.drafttek.com/CMDRound1.asp

One Mock Draft where Fairley goes ahead of Peterson is hardly proof of anything.

Requiem
12-29-2010, 10:17 PM
One Mock Draft where Fairley goes ahead of Peterson is hardly proof of anything.

That is also a computer simulated mock draft. Hamrob doesn't get it.

Lev Vyvanse
12-29-2010, 10:19 PM
I can see where people are coming from with that perspective too, but whether he's in a 3-4 or a 4-3, Dumervil is very good at one thing: getting to the quarterback on 1st and 3rd downs. So whether that happens in a 3-4 defense, or in a 4-3 defense (as a pass rush specialist ala DT), I don't see where the formation matters so much where Elvis is concerned. Just point the guy in the right direction on the right down.

So...rushing the passer as a 4-3 DE is th same as a 3-4 OLB? That's absurd.

Taco John
12-29-2010, 10:20 PM
So...rushing the passer as a 4-3 DE is th same as a 3-4 OLB? That's absurd.



Absurd? How?

Lev Vyvanse
12-29-2010, 10:22 PM
Absurd? How?

He has done both, so we could start with production.

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 10:29 PM
One Mock Draft where Fairley goes ahead of Peterson is hardly proof of anything.http://www.drafthuddle.com/2011MockDraft.html

Here's another. This isn't so much about Peterson to me. It's about our biggest need...which is the Defensive Line. An area we seldom if ever address and I sure as hell hope we use our top pick on this year!!!

Yes, I think we need to trade back a few picks...if we can. But, I wouldn't use our top pick on a flippen CB! We've had the best in the league the past 6-7 years while we have also had one of the worst defenses in the entire NFL.

Why has it been so poor? Because we cannot rush the passer or stop the run. How do you solve that problem? With 1st round talent being used on the front 7!!!

Taco John
12-29-2010, 10:30 PM
He has done both, so we could start with production.

So now it's not that it's absurd, but it's that he was more productive in one than the other?

He is a very productive pass rusher regardless of what defense you put him in. He's not very productive outside of the role of pass rusher.

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 10:31 PM
That is also a computer simulated mock draft. Hamrob doesn't get it.I do get it. We need to improve our front 7. We don't have the luxury to pick a CB. We need to ge pressure on the QB and to stop the run. You do that with 1st round talent being used on the front 7! NOT A CB!

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 10:33 PM
Agreed. Fairley is also an ass and a violation/suspension waiting to happen. I live in SEC country. The Alabama game and ESPN have turned Fairley into a wonder. I've seen games where he vanished. I'll be interrested to see what he will do against Oregon. I think that game may turn out to be the best one of the bowl season.I agree...this should be a great game and a great indication of Fariley's talent. He does have 18 TFL and 7.5 sacks. Not bad for a big fella.

rocket88
12-29-2010, 10:34 PM
Just about anywhere you look with our defense is a need. Champ is probably gone. Most think Dawkins is gone. We don't know what we have with Andre Goodman anymore because of age/injuries. Cox will be wearing a different shade of orange next year. McBath can't stay on the field.

Dedhed
12-29-2010, 10:36 PM
Here's another. This isn't so much about Peterson to me. It's about our biggest need...which is the Defensive Line. An area we seldom if ever address and I sure as hell hope we use our top pick on this year!!!

Yes, I think we need to trade back a few picks...if we can. But, I wouldn't use our top pick on a flippen CB! We've had the best in the league the past 6-7 years while we have also had one of the worst defenses in the entire NFL.

Why has it been so poor? Because we cannot rush the passer or stop the run. How do you solve that problem? With 1st round talent being used on the front 7!!!
You can post 10 more mocks like that, and I could post 200 where Fairley goes well later than Peterson. Mocks are stupid.

Taking Fairley over Peterson because of need is exactly how you end up with Players like Lelie, Moss, Middlebrooks instead of guys like Ed Reed.

Because it's crazy to take a Safety in the first round just likes it's crazy to take a CB in the top five, right?

Lev Vyvanse
12-29-2010, 10:37 PM
So now it's not that it's absurd, but it's that he was more productive in one than the other?

He is a very productive pass rusher regardless of what defense you put him in. He's not very productive outside of the role of pass rusher.

A 260 pound guy is going to have more problems lined up with his hand down. His main attribute is quickness and agility. Why would you want a 330 pound guy to get his hands on him? And yeah, I think production matters.

strafen
12-29-2010, 10:37 PM
Agreed. Fairley is also an ass and a violation/suspension waiting to happen. I live in SEC country. The Alabama game and ESPN have turned Fairley into a wonder. I've seen games where he vanished. I'll be interrested to see what he will do against Oregon. I think that game may turn out to be the best one of the bowl season.To bring nastiness to a defense, you have to bring some nasty players.
It comes with the territory. This is not about a punter of a kicker we're talking about here...
I too want to see what is he all about on the field...

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 10:55 PM
You can post 10 more mocks like that, and I could post 200 where Fairley goes well later than Peterson. Mocks are stupid.

Taking Fairley over Peterson because of need is exactly how you end up with Players like Lelie, Moss, Middlebrooks instead of guys like Ed Reed.

Because it's crazy to take a Safety in the first round just likes it's crazy to take a CB in the top five, right?Well...let's see...if we're truly going to take BPA...let's snatch Green...his talent is off the charts!

Taco John
12-29-2010, 10:57 PM
A 260 pound guy is going to have more problems lined up with his hand down. His main attribute is quickness and agility. Why would you want a 330 pound guy to get his hands on him? And yeah, I think production matters.


He doesn't seem to have a hard time with it:

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Lev Vyvanse
12-29-2010, 11:02 PM
He doesn't seem to have a hard time with it:

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vl1NFZncpBE?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vl1NFZncpBE?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

Did you watch that video?Hilarious!

Lev Vyvanse
12-29-2010, 11:12 PM
Okay you win. We should change back to the 4-3. Then when that doesn't work work next year we should get a new D coordinator again. Then when that doesn't work we should switch back to the 3-4. Then when that doesn't work work we should get a new D coordinator again. Then year after year we can wonder "why the **** can't we stop somebody?"

Taco John
12-29-2010, 11:12 PM
Did you watch that video?Hilarious!

Yeah. It showed Elvis Dumervil playing with both a two point and a three point stance and getting to the quarterback. Did you watch it?

Lev Vyvanse
12-29-2010, 11:14 PM
Yeah. It showed Elvis Dumervil playing with both a two point and a three point stance and getting to the quarterback. Did you watch it?

He can only do one of those things as a DE.

Taco John
12-29-2010, 11:16 PM
Okay you win. We should change back to the 4-3. Then when that doesn't work work next year we should get a new D coordinator again. Then when that doesn't work we should switch back to the 3-4. Then when that doesn't work work we should get a new D coordinator again. Then year after year we can wonder "why the **** can't we stop somebody?"

This is a bad rationalization for maintianing a defense that we are nowhere near staffed to field. We are nowhere close to being a good 3-4 unit. We have the beginning of a very intriguing 4-3.

Dedhed
12-29-2010, 11:23 PM
Well...let's see...if we're truly going to take BPA...let's snatch Green...his talent is off the charts!
Peterson shut him down. You haven't put much research into this have you?

Dedhed
12-29-2010, 11:34 PM
We have the beginning of a very intriguing 4-3.

No we don't.

peacepipe
12-29-2010, 11:46 PM
No kiddin' man. I thought he was a safety.
The guy will make a great safety, I'd betConsidering how big WRs are now compared to 10 yrs ago, it isn't a stretch to think bigger CBs are on the horizon. Peterson is a CB,you'd waste his talents and skills putting him at safety.

footstepsfrom#27
12-29-2010, 11:54 PM
Considering how big WRs are now compared to 10 yrs ago, it isn't a stretch to think bigger CBs are on the horizon. Peterson is a CB,you'd waste his talents and skills putting him at safety.
This team currently has nobody who can cover San Diego's big receivers or Bowe either, especially if Champ leaves. Denver's smallilsh DB's are going to struggle alot with teams that have big WR's but Peterson would go a long wayto solving this.

Hamrob
12-30-2010, 12:26 AM
This team currently has nobody who can cover San Diego's big receivers or Bowe either, especially if Champ leaves. Denver's smallilsh DB's are going to struggle alot with teams that have big WR's but Peterson would go a long wayto solving this.You can have 5'2" cb's covering wideouts...if you have a team that can put heat on the QB!

peacepipe
12-30-2010, 12:33 AM
You can have 5'2" cb's covering wideouts...if you have a team that can put heat on the QB!

I'm going to have to call BS on that.

Drek
12-30-2010, 07:15 AM
I can see where people are coming from with that perspective too, but whether he's in a 3-4 or a 4-3, Dumervil is very good at one thing: getting to the quarterback on 1st and 3rd downs. So whether that happens in a 3-4 defense, or in a 4-3 defense (as a pass rush specialist ala DT), I don't see where the formation matters so much where Elvis is concerned. Just point the guy in the right direction on the right down.

He's a real liability in the run game as a 4-3 DE. As a 3-4 OLB he already showed progress in that area last year, and very possibly would have shown more this year if he was healthy enough to play.

That is the big X factor for Doom in a 3-4 as opposed to the 4-3. He's just too small to be helpful in the run in a 4-3. As a 3-4 OLB he's got good size and could become a solid if not spectacular run stopper.

Flipping the scheme again hoping and praying for a quick fix isn't going to help this team. It makes a guy like Joe Mays practically worthless here for example, while he might have a real future as a 3-4 SILB.

I will say though that if we can get an excellent 4-3 defensive coach like John Fox as opposed to retaining someone like Martindale and staying in a 3-4 I'd much rather take the better coach and make the switch.

Missouribronc
12-30-2010, 07:38 AM
This team currently has nobody who can cover San Diego's big receivers or Bowe either.

Huh?

Bowe had zero catches for zero yards. The San Diego receivers and Phillip Rivers beat the crap out of this defense because the front seven couldn't get any pressure, not because the coverage sucked.

Broncos4tw
12-30-2010, 08:09 AM
Line or Corner.. it doesn't matter. If we don't pick up a QB, I think we'll be taking the best available defensive player.. possibly in every round. I don't see them handpicking positions when we have so many needs.

oubronco
12-30-2010, 08:14 AM
This Defense sucks so bad we need help everywhere

LRtagger
12-30-2010, 08:22 AM
Well...let's see...if we're truly going to take BPA...let's snatch Green...his talent is off the charts!

When you draw up your draft board, need factors into the grades you give them. Green will be on our top 10 probably, but he will be lower on our board bc WR is not a position of need.

CB is a position of need. I would imagine Peterson will be either #1 or #2 on our big board depending on whether the next FO considers us set with Tebow. If they do not, then Luck will be #1 and Peterson will be #2.

BPA means when you select, you pick the highest guy rated on your board thats available...it doesn't mean you select the guy who is highest on Kiper's big board.

We will not have an offensive player outside of Luck in our top 5 I would imagine...and Luck will be gone when we pick...so hopefully we will be selecting the defensive player we have rated the highest - which hopefully will be Peterson.

If Peterson is our highest rated player available when we select and we pick someone we have rated lower, then it's a dumb move. That's not how you build the best defense you can for the future. You build the best defense you can for the future by picking up the best defensive players that are available to you.

SoDak Bronco
12-30-2010, 08:31 AM
So what is the lowest we pick in the NFL draft? is it 9 or 5?

CEH
12-30-2010, 08:32 AM
When you draw up your draft board, need factors into the grades you give them. Green will be on our top 10 probably, but he will be lower on our board bc WR is not a position of need.

CB is a position of need. I would imagine Peterson will be either #1 or #2 on our big board depending on whether the next FO considers us set with Tebow. If they do not, then Luck will be #1 and Peterson will be #2.

BPA means when you select, you pick the highest guy rated on your board thats available...it doesn't mean you select the guy who is highest on Kiper's big board.

We will not have an offensive player outside of Luck in our top 5 I would imagine...and Luck will be gone when we pick...so hopefully we will be selecting the defensive player we have rated the highest - which hopefully will be Peterson.

If Peterson is our highest rated player available when we select and we pick someone we have rated lower, then it's a dumb move. That's not how you build the best defense you can for the future. You build the best defense you can for the future by picking up the best defensive players that are available to you.

Then if you factor in need it's not truly BPA. It's BPA according to team needs

If we pick say #4 It's highly likely the BPA on the board in every NFL draft board if you ranked players 1-365 on BPA will be AJ Green. At #4, His grade regardless of postion far outweighs any other defensive player in the draft.

Do you take him? BPA proponents say yes. Going be a very hard sell to Broncos nation

peacepipe
12-30-2010, 08:48 AM
Then if you factor in need it's not truly BPA. It's BPA according to team needs

If we pick say #4 It's highly likely the BPA on the board in every NFL draft board if you ranked players 1-365 on BPA will be AJ Green. At #4, His grade regardless of postion far outweighs any other defensive player in the draft.

Do you take him? BPA proponents say yes. Going be a very hard sell to Broncos nationBPA is the best player available, need doesn't factor into it. When your picking as high as #2 you either take the BPA or trade down to get the player of need.

peacepipe
12-30-2010, 08:58 AM
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by Taco John http://www.orangemane.com/BB/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=3062127#post3062127)
I can see where people are coming from with that perspective too, but whether he's in a 3-4 or a 4-3, Dumervil is very good at one thing: getting to the quarterback on 1st and 3rd downs. So whether that happens in a 3-4 defense, or in a 4-3 defense (as a pass rush specialist ala DT), I don't see where the formation matters so much where Elvis is concerned. Just point the guy in the right direction on the right down.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Stick to a 3-4,he's alot better fit at OLB. in the 4 or 5 yrs he played DE in a 4-3 his best yr was 12.5 sacks. he was in single didgits(sp) other yrs. His 1st yr in a 3-4 he gets 17.5 sacks & you think we should go back to a 4-3?

LRtagger
12-30-2010, 09:07 AM
Then if you factor in need it's not truly BPA. It's BPA according to team needs

If we pick say #4 It's highly likely the BPA on the board in every NFL draft board if you ranked players 1-365 on BPA will be AJ Green. At #4, His grade regardless of postion far outweighs any other defensive player in the draft.

Do you take him? BPA proponents say yes. Going be a very hard sell to Broncos nation


I'm talking BPA on the BRONCOS draft board. On a team's draft board, need typically factors into player grades. I swear I've seen an equation by some scouting dept, but they create a grade based on skill/talent and then have a multiplier for need. Obviously if the Rams had the #1 overall pick again, they would not take Luck even if their philosophy is BPA.

If Green is the top player available on the board in the Broncos war room when their pick comes up, then my guess is they will do everything they can to trade down...but IMO he will not be the top player on their board when we select.

CEH
12-30-2010, 09:12 AM
BPA is the best player available, need doesn't factor into it. When your picking as high as #2 you either take the BPA or trade down to get the player of need.

I'm talking BPA on the BRONCOS draft board. On a team's draft board, need typically factors into player grades. I swear I've seen an equation by some scouting dept, but they create a grade based on skill/talent and then have a multiplier for need. Obviously if the Rams had the #1 overall pick again, they would not take Luck even if their philosophy is BPA.

If Green is the top player available on the board in the Broncos war room when their pick comes up, then my guess is they will do everything they can to trade down...but IMO he will not be the top player on their board when we select.



Again address my scenerio of picking at #4 (we win on SUnday) and you can't trade down (takes two to trade not always a given) . BPA is Green based on whatever calculations you want to use you take him correct?

LRtagger
12-30-2010, 09:15 AM
Again address my scenerio of picking at #4 (we win on SUnday) and you can't trade down (takes two to trade not always a given) . BPA is Green you take him correct?

If he is head and shoulders the best player available I dont see how you dont...but if you have a grading system of 0-100 and Green is a 99 and say Fairly is a 98, then you factor in need and pick Fairly if you have no trade partners.

But if Green is a 99 and the next best player on your board has a grade of 94 or something, then I don't see how you dont pick Green.

bowtown
12-30-2010, 09:18 AM
BPA is the best player available, need doesn't factor into it. When your picking as high as #2 you either take the BPA or trade down to get the player of need.

Of course need factors into it. BPA is not some objective thing, it's going to be different for every team, every evaluator, every draft "expert." Your team needs are going to factor into who you think the best player available is, like it or not. That's why the whole theory of BPA is such a stupid one. You are always taking who your team feels is the best player available, but there are a lot factors that go into that and one of them is need. If you are picking only who Kiper or Mayok have at your spot, you are an idiot and should be fired for not doing your job, but at the same time if you are selecting soley on need then chances are you are reaching. MVPA (most valuable player available) is really how every team drafts. BPA doesn't actually really mean anything.

Beantown Bronco
12-30-2010, 09:27 AM
If you are picking only who Kiper or Mayok have at your spot, you are an idiot and should be fired for not doing your job

I'd argue that Bowlen (and most other owners actually) would probably have been better off the last 5-10 years if he simply fired his entire scouting department and literally went with Mayock's board year in and year out.

Mediator12
12-30-2010, 09:29 AM
The thing about the draft is its not that simple. People talk about BPA or need drafting like that is what teams do exclusively. Every team in the NFL takes a completely different approach to the draft and that is why a players value is so speculative. Anyone here see JAX taking Tyson Alualu @ 10 last year? I sure did not. Neither did ANY of the other draft "NON-Experts". The Only real experts are the teams who track the draft process.

The draft process is so damn complex to the average fan, they simply spout out the lowest common denominator arguments of BPA or need drafting without ever taking into consideration all that REALLY goes into the teams making draft picks. Things that are commonly missed on the internet:

1. Every team assigns more than one grade to a player. They do an overall grade to attempt to have a draft value for that player and a scheme grade to see how that player should impact in their system. Teams use the overall grade to gauge where a player MIGHT be taken and to work trades. However, generally they draft based on the scheme grade which is not the same as the overall grades most idiot mock drafts use.

2. The grades and rankings of all the internet sites are simply a hypothetical overall value based on perception. Most are not done by anyone with a scouting backround or by people who understand football and scouting combined. They are extremely biased on the way they think an OVERALL player should be graded, but they typically have no clue on how a player in one scheme in college might translate to another in the pros. They have no analytical adaptabilty, they are stuck in overall grades.

3. Very few sites have a qualified, experienced NFL scout who has ever done an overall grade for an NFL team. The best got re-hired last year by an actual NFL team. That was Daniel Jeremiah who the Eagles hired. Go back and listen to his podcasts from Move the sticks. Guy gives some GREAT insight into the real draft process.

4. Most internet sites do a horrific job of assessing team needs as it applies to the draft process. And, that is being generous. NFL teams have scouts who break down every team and assign grades to every player with tape every season. Then, they assign an overall grade and a Scheme grade to that player for Free agency and trade purposes. This is what the Director of Pro personnel and his staff do. This information is used by teams in the draft process as well to accurately assess team needs in FA and the draft. Also, to pick up players off waivers during the season, steal players from practice squads when injuries hit, and know who is available at any time. This is the most missed element of internet draft Guru or analysis for teams picking players based on need.

5. The most important thing in drafting a first round player in today's game is Time to Impact. If you take a player top 5 he should start right away and be productive in the NFL in your scheme. Period. No freaking developmental players in the top 5 or top 20 IMHO. The drafts are producing tons of NFL ready talent and teams keep overdrafting development players for fear they will be gone later in the draft. I believe this is the most heinous use of resources that teams currently mismanage. It is why Tyson Alualu was NOT a reach by JAX (He has played like a veteran starter for them this year) and Tyson Jackson was a reach for KC @ #3 overall.

So, while I love the heated debate and the passion of the Peterson vs. DL argument, let's not dismiss people out of turn. There are so many factors going on in this process that none of us is anywhere near an "expert" on the draft. Let's just try to keep the argument on point and use some rationale when posting.

CEH
12-30-2010, 09:40 AM
The thing about the draft is its not that simple. People talk about BPA or need drafting like that is what teams do exclusively. Every team in the NFL takes a completely different approach to the draft and that is why a players value is so speculative. Anyone here see JAX taking Tyson Alualu @ 10 last year? I sure did not. Neither did ANY of the other draft "NON-Experts". The Only real experts are the teams who track the draft process.

The draft process is so damn complex to the average fan, they simply spout out the lowest common denominator arguments of BPA or need drafting without ever taking into consideration all that REALLY goes into the teams making draft picks. Things that are commonly missed on the internet:

1. Every team assigns more than one grade to a player. They do an overall grade to attempt to have a draft value for that player and a scheme grade to see how that player should impact in their system. Teams use the overall grade to gauge where a player MIGHT be taken and to work trades. However, generally they draft based on the scheme grade which is not the same as the overall grades most idiot mock drafts use.

2. The grades and rankings of all the internet sites are simply a hypothetical overall value based on perception. Most are not done by anyone with a scouting backround or by people who understand football and scouting combined. They are extremely biased on the way they think an OVERALL player should be graded, but they typically have no clue on how a player in one scheme in college might translate to another in the pros. They have no analytical adaptabilty, they are stuck in overall grades.

3. Very few sites have a qualified, experienced NFL scout who has ever done an overall grade for an NFL team. The best got re-hired last year by an actual NFL team. That was Daniel Jeremiah who the Eagles hired. Go back and listen to his podcasts from Move the sticks. Guy gives some GREAT insight into the real draft process.

4. Most internet sites do a horrific job of assessing team needs as it applies to the draft process. And, that is being generous. NFL teams have scouts who break down every team and assign grades to every player with tape every season. Then, they assign an overall grade and a Scheme grade to that player for Free agency and trade purposes. This is what the Director of Pro personnel and his staff do. This information is used by teams in the draft process as well to accurately assess team needs in FA and the draft. Also, to pick up players off waivers during the season, steal players from practice squads when injuries hit, and know who is available at any time. This is the most missed element of internet draft Guru or analysis for teams picking players based on need.

5. The most important thing in drafting a first round player in today's game is Time to Impact. If you take a player top 5 he should start right away and be productive in the NFL in your scheme. Period. No freaking developmental players in the top 5 or top 20 IMHO. The drafts are producing tons of NFL ready talent and teams keep overdrafting development players for fear they will be gone later in the draft. I believe this is the most heinous use of resources that teams currently mismanage. It is why Tyson Alualu was NOT a reach by JAX (He has played like a veteran starter for them this year) and Tyson Jackson was a reach for KC @ #3 overall.

So, while I love the heated debate and the passion of the Peterson vs. DL argument, let's not dismiss people out of turn. There are so many factors going on in this process that none of us is anywhere near an "expert" on the draft. Let's just try to keep the argument on point and use some rationale when posting.


Thanks for the update I was hoping you would weigh in.

Do teams slot players into a logical subset of the round. i.e this guy is top 5 this guy is top 10. Would a top 10 player be a reach over a top 5 if the need is greater for the player at #10.


We need front seven help. I can't beleive they is not one player in the top 10 on the front seven that cannot come in from day one and have an impact

Terrance Newman I'm sure was graded top 5 while D Ware was top 10. I don't see an issue selecting a D Ware if he has an impact like you said but others would say we need Newman because he's graded higher . Newman was the safer pick. There are busts all over the place.

It's complex like you said and I'd like to concentrate on the known vs the unknown. Sure we would like to trade back it makes things alot rosier for Denver but that is an unknown factor. What is know is Denver will select #2-#6 (I think. Haven't looked at all the permutaions of SOS)

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 09:48 AM
The thing about the draft is its not that simple. People talk about BPA or need drafting like that is what teams do exclusively. Every team in the NFL takes a completely different approach to the draft and that is why a players value is so speculative. Anyone here see JAX taking Tyson Alualu @ 10 last year? I sure did not. Neither did ANY of the other draft "NON-Experts". The Only real experts are the teams who track the draft process.

The draft process is so damn complex to the average fan, they simply spout out the lowest common denominator arguments of BPA or need drafting without ever taking into consideration all that REALLY goes into the teams making draft picks. Things that are commonly missed on the internet:

1. Every team assigns more than one grade to a player. They do an overall grade to attempt to have a draft value for that player and a scheme grade to see how that player should impact in their system. Teams use the overall grade to gauge where a player MIGHT be taken and to work trades. However, generally they draft based on the scheme grade which is not the same as the overall grades most idiot mock drafts use.

2. The grades and rankings of all the internet sites are simply a hypothetical overall value based on perception. Most are not done by anyone with a scouting backround or by people who understand football and scouting combined. They are extremely biased on the way they think an OVERALL player should be graded, but they typically have no clue on how a player in one scheme in college might translate to another in the pros. They have no analytical adaptabilty, they are stuck in overall grades.

3. Very few sites have a qualified, experienced NFL scout who has ever done an overall grade for an NFL team. The best got re-hired last year by an actual NFL team. That was Daniel Jeremiah who the Eagles hired. Go back and listen to his podcasts from Move the sticks. Guy gives some GREAT insight into the real draft process.

4. Most internet sites do a horrific job of assessing team needs as it applies to the draft process. And, that is being generous. NFL teams have scouts who break down every team and assign grades to every player with tape every season. Then, they assign an overall grade and a Scheme grade to that player for Free agency and trade purposes. This is what the Director of Pro personnel and his staff do. This information is used by teams in the draft process as well to accurately assess team needs in FA and the draft. Also, to pick up players off waivers during the season, steal players from practice squads when injuries hit, and know who is available at any time. This is the most missed element of internet draft Guru or analysis for teams picking players based on need.

5. The most important thing in drafting a first round player in today's game is Time to Impact. If you take a player top 5 he should start right away and be productive in the NFL in your scheme. Period. No freaking developmental players in the top 5 or top 20 IMHO. The drafts are producing tons of NFL ready talent and teams keep overdrafting development players for fear they will be gone later in the draft. I believe this is the most heinous use of resources that teams currently mismanage. It is why Tyson Alualu was NOT a reach by JAX (He has played like a veteran starter for them this year) and Tyson Jackson was a reach for KC @ #3 overall.

So, while I love the heated debate and the passion of the Peterson vs. DL argument, let's not dismiss people out of turn. There are so many factors going on in this process that none of us is anywhere near an "expert" on the draft. Let's just try to keep the argument on point and use some rationale when posting.

Not always true.

Let's not forget, some FO's sometimes use an index card with 20 players and call it a day.

Rohirrim
12-30-2010, 09:48 AM
Not to mention, at this point in time we don't know where we'll draft. Hopefully, we beat Sandy Eggo this week after which we'll move down a bit. Secondly, we don't know who the coaches will be or what the scheme will be. Personally, I hope we stick with the 3-4 as that gives us the best base against a pass happy league, IMO. We don't have great pieces for a base anything at this point so I figure we're starting from ground zero anyway. What I can no longer abide is the lack of a pass rush. That is no longer a need on this team, it is a gaping wound. It loses us game after game after game. We don't have the luxury to spend that first pick on a CB. The only argument that supports that is Herc's that we have years worth of team building ahead of us anyway so it doesn't really matter; Get the BPA now. The other thing is that there is much more development to take place. Maybe Fairley blows everybody away against Oregon and at the combine and becomes the consensus pick? Or maybe he flops and drops? Maybe Locker blows everybody away at the combine and becomes major trade bait at the number two slot (after Luck) and the Broncos are able to rake in some picks and drop down and take, say Paea and have three seconds, or whatever. I still say, yes, Peterson is a great player. So is Champ. But what good do either of them do us without a pass rush? The answer? Zip. Pass rush comes first. Run stopping (especially in the AFCW) second. Secondary third. IMHO.

LRtagger
12-30-2010, 09:51 AM
The thing about the draft is its not that simple. People talk about BPA or need drafting like that is what teams do exclusively. Every team in the NFL takes a completely different approach to the draft and that is why a players value is so speculative. Anyone here see JAX taking Tyson Alualu @ 10 last year? I sure did not. Neither did ANY of the other draft "NON-Experts". The Only real experts are the teams who track the draft process.

The draft process is so damn complex to the average fan, they simply spout out the lowest common denominator arguments of BPA or need drafting without ever taking into consideration all that REALLY goes into the teams making draft picks. Things that are commonly missed on the internet:

1. Every team assigns more than one grade to a player. They do an overall grade to attempt to have a draft value for that player and a scheme grade to see how that player should impact in their system. Teams use the overall grade to gauge where a player MIGHT be taken and to work trades. However, generally they draft based on the scheme grade which is not the same as the overall grades most idiot mock drafts use.

2. The grades and rankings of all the internet sites are simply a hypothetical overall value based on perception. Most are not done by anyone with a scouting backround or by people who understand football and scouting combined. They are extremely biased on the way they think an OVERALL player should be graded, but they typically have no clue on how a player in one scheme in college might translate to another in the pros. They have no analytical adaptabilty, they are stuck in overall grades.

3. Very few sites have a qualified, experienced NFL scout who has ever done an overall grade for an NFL team. The best got re-hired last year by an actual NFL team. That was Daniel Jeremiah who the Eagles hired. Go back and listen to his podcasts from Move the sticks. Guy gives some GREAT insight into the real draft process.

4. Most internet sites do a horrific job of assessing team needs as it applies to the draft process. And, that is being generous. NFL teams have scouts who break down every team and assign grades to every player with tape every season. Then, they assign an overall grade and a Scheme grade to that player for Free agency and trade purposes. This is what the Director of Pro personnel and his staff do. This information is used by teams in the draft process as well to accurately assess team needs in FA and the draft. Also, to pick up players off waivers during the season, steal players from practice squads when injuries hit, and know who is available at any time. This is the most missed element of internet draft Guru or analysis for teams picking players based on need.

5. The most important thing in drafting a first round player in today's game is Time to Impact. If you take a player top 5 he should start right away and be productive in the NFL in your scheme. Period. No freaking developmental players in the top 5 or top 20 IMHO. The drafts are producing tons of NFL ready talent and teams keep overdrafting development players for fear they will be gone later in the draft. I believe this is the most heinous use of resources that teams currently mismanage. It is why Tyson Alualu was NOT a reach by JAX (He has played like a veteran starter for them this year) and Tyson Jackson was a reach for KC @ #3 overall.

So, while I love the heated debate and the passion of the Peterson vs. DL argument, let's not dismiss people out of turn. There are so many factors going on in this process that none of us is anywhere near an "expert" on the draft. Let's just try to keep the argument on point and use some rationale when posting.


I agree completely...what I dont want to happen is us pass on an elite prospect like Peterson because we are so deadset in OMG WE NEED DL, so we approach our first pick saying "we are going to take the best DLman available no matter who else is there". When you do that, IMO you get into trouble and you miss out on guys that could be the elite of the elite talent in the league. If the FO has a 99 grade on Peterson and a lower grade on Fairly or whoever, then there's no reason to not select Peterson. He fills a position of need and he is who the FO feels is the best player on the board.

You also have to factor in who you think will be available wehn you select with your second and third pick. If there are a slew of DLman who will probably be available when you use your second selection (which there will be this year), then it gives you more of an ability to negate your DL need with your first pick.

You really have to weigh all of your options...do you want to pass on a guy like Peterson who you have graded higher, to select Fairly because he fills a position of more need and then take your chances in the secondary? Or do you select Peterson because he has the highest grade and use your second and third picks to fill needs and get a guy like Crick/Heyward or maybe even hope Bailey or Houston falls to you.

For me, I would rather take my risks in the second round and not risk passing up who could potentially be the best CB to come out in 10 years...even if DL is a bigger need than CB. The fact is we need better players at EVERY position on D outside Doom.

Pony Boy
12-30-2010, 09:56 AM
The thing about the draft is its not that simple. People talk about BPA or need drafting like that is what teams do exclusively. Every team in the NFL takes a completely different approach to the draft and that is why a players value is so speculative. Anyone here see JAX taking Tyson Alualu @ 10 last year? I sure did not. Neither did ANY of the other draft "NON-Experts". The Only real experts are the teams who track the draft process.

The draft process is so damn complex to the average fan, they simply spout out the lowest common denominator arguments of BPA or need drafting without ever taking into consideration all that REALLY goes into the teams making draft picks. Things that are commonly missed on the internet:

1. Every team assigns more than one grade to a player. They do an overall grade to attempt to have a draft value for that player and a scheme grade to see how that player should impact in their system. Teams use the overall grade to gauge where a player MIGHT be taken and to work trades. However, generally they draft based on the scheme grade which is not the same as the overall grades most idiot mock drafts use.

2. The grades and rankings of all the internet sites are simply a hypothetical overall value based on perception. Most are not done by anyone with a scouting backround or by people who understand football and scouting combined. They are extremely biased on the way they think an OVERALL player should be graded, but they typically have no clue on how a player in one scheme in college might translate to another in the pros. They have no analytical adaptabilty, they are stuck in overall grades.

3. Very few sites have a qualified, experienced NFL scout who has ever done an overall grade for an NFL team. The best got re-hired last year by an actual NFL team. That was Daniel Jeremiah who the Eagles hired. Go back and listen to his podcasts from Move the sticks. Guy gives some GREAT insight into the real draft process.

4. Most internet sites do a horrific job of assessing team needs as it applies to the draft process. And, that is being generous. NFL teams have scouts who break down every team and assign grades to every player with tape every season. Then, they assign an overall grade and a Scheme grade to that player for Free agency and trade purposes. This is what the Director of Pro personnel and his staff do. This information is used by teams in the draft process as well to accurately assess team needs in FA and the draft. Also, to pick up players off waivers during the season, steal players from practice squads when injuries hit, and know who is available at any time. This is the most missed element of internet draft Guru or analysis for teams picking players based on need.

5. The most important thing in drafting a first round player in today's game is Time to Impact. If you take a player top 5 he should start right away and be productive in the NFL in your scheme. Period. No freaking developmental players in the top 5 or top 20 IMHO. The drafts are producing tons of NFL ready talent and teams keep overdrafting development players for fear they will be gone later in the draft. I believe this is the most heinous use of resources that teams currently mismanage. It is why Tyson Alualu was NOT a reach by JAX (He has played like a veteran starter for them this year) and Tyson Jackson was a reach for KC @ #3 overall.

So, while I love the heated debate and the passion of the Peterson vs. DL argument, let's not dismiss people out of turn. There are so many factors going on in this process that none of us is anywhere near an "expert" on the draft. Let's just try to keep the argument on point and use some rationale when posting.

So in a nutshell you're saying we screwed up taking Moreno at #12......I get it.

Drek
12-30-2010, 10:06 AM
So in a nutshell you're saying we screwed up taking Moreno at #12......I get it.

Moreno fits exactly what McDaniels wanted though.

1. started from day one.

2. can hold up well in pass protection out of the gate.

3. is a viable receiving threat out of the backfield.

Moreno's inability to stay healthy, shoddy line play, and McDaniels' own poor utilization of him in the passing game weakened the value he extracted from the #12 overall pick. But he likely had a very high ranking in terms of system fit and immediate impact coming out of college.

I would say that Med's point does underscore how over his head McDaniels was running the FO. McDaniels constantly mentioned a "two year window" to see what they had in prospects. But that doesn't work in today's NFL if you're making as many high picks as McDaniels did. It also doesn't pass the smell test when you trade Alphonso Smith before the start of his second year.

Beantown Bronco
12-30-2010, 10:09 AM
Not always true.

Let's not forget, some FO's sometimes use an index card with 20 players and call it a day.

Or one player.

Mediator12
12-30-2010, 10:10 AM
So in a nutshell you're saying we screwed up taking Moreno at #12......I get it.

His performance was not what you would want from a back selected that high, but that should not have been a factor in the selection process at all. The process is completely different than the result of the pick.

What I am saying is a Kid with an offensive backround selected 3 offensive skill positions in the first round in 2 years and just one defensive player who was not plug and play until his second year ;D

Were those guys the best picks for DEN or a result of reactive drafting to losing players he alienated and lost?

Hamrob
12-30-2010, 10:12 AM
I'd argue that Bowlen (and most other owners actually) would probably have been better off the last 5-10 years if he simply fired his entire scouting department and literally went with Mayock's board year in and year out.Now there's a thought! I sure do like Mayock's assessments. I have wondered if McD didn't do exactly that...last year.

I mean, Thomas, Tebow, Beadles, Walton and Decker were all in Mayock's top-5 per position. Thomas and Decker were 2 of his top 5 receivers. And, Cox/Thompson were close to his top 5.

So, McD followed that plan almost to the T. And, hey, I thought it was our best draft in a long time!!!

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 10:13 AM
Moreno fits exactly what McDaniels wanted though.

1. started from day one.

Day one or several months later in week 5 of the regular season... Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to.

Mediator12
12-30-2010, 10:13 AM
Not always true.

Let's not forget, some FO's sometimes use an index card with 20 players and call it a day.

Oh, they still graded all those players that way. They just threw away all the ones they did not like Hilarious!

Stupid, arrogant, draft leak of process. McDaniels could coach, but he was not a great player personnel process guy at all.

elsid13
12-30-2010, 10:14 AM
Oh, they still graded all those players that way. They just threw away all the ones they did not like Hilarious!

Stupid, arrogant, draft leak of process. McDaniels could coach, but he was not a great player personnel process guy at all.

Sure he was, just ask him. ;D

Hamrob
12-30-2010, 10:14 AM
Moreno fits exactly what McDaniels wanted though.

1. started from day one.

2. can hold up well in pass protection out of the gate.

3. is a viable receiving threat out of the backfield.

Moreno's inability to stay healthy, shoddy line play, and McDaniels' own poor utilization of him in the passing game weakened the value he extracted from the #12 overall pick. But he likely had a very high ranking in terms of system fit and immediate impact coming out of college.

I would say that Med's point does underscore how over his head McDaniels was running the FO. McDaniels constantly mentioned a "two year window" to see what they had in prospects. But that doesn't work in today's NFL if you're making as many high picks as McDaniels did. It also doesn't pass the smell test when you trade Alphonso Smith before the start of his second year. I agree, Moreno is a NE style RB. A guy who can block, catch dump off passes and pick up 3-4 yds a carry consistently. Reminds me of....eh, Maroney!

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 10:15 AM
Oh, they still graded all those players that way. They just threw away all the ones they did not like Hilarious!

Stupid, arrogant, draft leak of process. McDaniels could coach, but he was not a great player personnel process guy at all.

Gonna have to disagree about the coaching part too...

He could really put together a fantastic passing game, I doubt anyone in their right mind would argue that, but the team RARELY seemed prepared.

Mile High Shack
12-30-2010, 10:18 AM
Gonna have to disagree about the coaching part too...

He could really put together a fantastic passing game, I doubt anyone in their right mind would argue that, but the team RARELY seemed prepared.

I agree on this, so many time outs, people not knowing what personnel group needs to be in, bad penalties, it was bad

Mediator12
12-30-2010, 10:19 AM
Gonna have to disagree about the coaching part too...

He could really put together a fantastic passing game, I doubt anyone in their right mind would argue that, but the team RARELY seemed prepared.

I Disagree completely. I think they were completely prepared and executed like a catholic school girls flag football team most days. Every player commended McDaniels on his team preparation and knowing what the other team would do every week. They just could not man up and execute the gameplan on defense or the pathetic running game.