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Dedhed
12-30-2010, 09:20 AM
This Defense sucks so bad we need help everywhere

Exactly, which is why you take the best defensive player available at each of the first 3 picks, at least.

This defense is going to take at least a couple of years to build talent. Peterson is by far the most talented defender coming out.

Mediator12
12-30-2010, 09:21 AM
I agree on this, so many time outs, people not knowing what personnel group needs to be in, bad penalties, it was bad

Welcome back shack, we missed you!

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 09:24 AM
I Disagree completely. I think they were completely prepared and executed like a catholic school girls flag football team most days. Every player commended McDaniels on his team preparation and knowing what the other team would do every week. They just could not man up and execute the gameplan on defense or the pathetic running game.

Of course they commended him. He's giving these guys a job and contracts that 95% of would NOT be earning on another NFL team.

9 million dollars for a year of Kyle Orton? That had BETTER come with a blow job.

Games I felt Denver was prepared in:

2010:

Seattle, Indy, Jets, KC (Titans left off purposely)

2009:

First 6 (real preparation or no scouting edge?)
NYG, KC and loss at Philly was well played.

What would you add from your observations?

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 09:25 AM
And I didn't bother to include the personnel groupings and stupid delay of game penalties and randomly blown timeouts, etc, since Shack took care of that already.

oubronco
12-30-2010, 09:26 AM
This is depressing I need a Xanax

Rohirrim
12-30-2010, 09:27 AM
The question is, if we stay at #2 and take Peterson, does he win us any games next year? Probably not. If we were to study time to impact of Fairley (for example) against Peterson, Fairley probably comes out better. Peterson may get an INT here and there, make some tackles or knock down some passes, but a guy like Fairley brings the pass rush, TOs created, fumbles, and QB hurries. It seems to me that rating Peterson higher also means you put off his impact. In other words, he's a long term investment. You are saying that once we get a pass rush together, he will be an impact player. With a guy like Fairley, you have a better chance of having immediate impact.

The only other consideration is Peterson as a punt returner.

BroncoInferno
12-30-2010, 09:28 AM
Stupid, arrogant, draft leak of process. McDaniels could coach, but he was not a great player personnel process guy at all.

I think McD's two drafts will be vidicated in the next year or two...unfortunately for him, by the next regime. The 2010 draft especially.

Drek
12-30-2010, 09:35 AM
Day one or several months later in week 5 of the regular season... Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to.

Would "took the majority of the carries almost from day one" make you feel better?

Oh, they still graded all those players that way. They just threw away all the ones they did not like Hilarious!

Stupid, arrogant, draft leak of process. McDaniels could coach, but he was not a great player personnel process guy at all.

I wouldn't even so much chalk it up to strict player personnel ineptitude, but then I personally think he did a really good job acquiring talent in both drafts, despite playing fast and loose with pick value.

It was the sheer hubris of it all that damned him. I still can't see how a 3rd round rookie center's only competition was a UDFA and a 5th round rookie center, especially when Kevin Mawae was basically begging for a job. He continually use the Mike Shanahan "browncos" approach on the DL, trying to get by with veteran retreads on the lines. And he did the same with many of his assistants. The RB competition behind Moreno and an aging Buckhalter was pathetic and he didn't try to find solutions until the middle of camp. He put people like McCoy and Martindale in their highest ranking positions of their careers and tried to micromanage them to success.

McDaniels comes across to me as a great football mind who buys into his own "boy genius" hype completely and without a shred of doubt. He really thought he could run every aspect of a football team without missing a beat.

He reminds me a lot of Mike Martz.

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 09:37 AM
Would "took the majority of the carries almost from day one" make you feel better?

A little bit. But can you also mention how he was getting out produced by Buck on half the carries?

elsid13
12-30-2010, 09:41 AM
The question is, if we stay at #2 and take Peterson, does he win us any games next year? Probably not. If we were to study time to impact of Fairley (for example) against Peterson, Fairley probably comes out better. Peterson may get an INT here and there, make some tackles or knock down some passes, but a guy like Fairley brings the pass rush, TOs created, fumbles, and QB hurries. It seems to me that rating Peterson higher also means you put off his impact. In other words, he's a long term investment. You are saying that once we get a pass rush together, he will be an impact player. With a guy like Fairley, you have a better chance of having immediate impact.

The only other consideration is Peterson as a punt returner.

It more likely it will be exactly the opposite scenario. Defense linemen rarely make an impact their first season because the need to improve their techinque vs depend on their physical skill like the do in college. A linebacker or corner is going to pay off sooner because they live off their physical skills.

Mediator12
12-30-2010, 09:42 AM
Exactly, which is why you take the best defensive player available at each of the first 3 picks, at least.

This defense is going to take at least a couple of years to build talent. Peterson is by far the most talented defender coming out.

I might agree with the fact that Peterson is the most talented and potentially best player at any postion on defense.

What I will not agree with is the value of a shutdown CB anymore. We have had Champ for 7 years now and this defense has been average or worse. Asomugha has never tasted the playoffs in 6 years with that putrid Raiders defense. Revis has not put the Jets anywhere special. Woodson has never seen the SB and only one Conference championship game.

The whole reason Deion Sanders won championships is he skipped Atlanta and went to the 2 most dominant teams in the league in SF and DAL :thumbs: Atlanta was never good because of Deion!

Seriously people, I am asking you to weigh the merits of a shutdown CB in today's NFL. that guy can only cover 1 of 5 eligible Receivers! They can be taken out of the game and you can still beat their teams by simply ignoring them. Asomugha has been all-pro level for 5 years and the Raiders defense has still sucked. Champ has been all-pro for 6 years and DEN's defense was average only for 2 years and has sucked since. Revis has been all-pro for 3 years and NYJ's limped into the playoffs after their coach thought they were eliminated last year and INDY rested their starters last year. Then, Manning tore them apart in the AFCCG because he could target other players. Woodson was the defensive player of the year last year and ARI put up 50 points on them in the playoffs to eliminate them.

Shutdown CB's are simply not as effective anymore as high powered offenses are able to utilize "11" personnel so effectively. They spread out the field and the QB can choose from 4 legit other targets to make a play and selectively pass by the Shutdown CB and still score 30+ points.

The game is still won in the trenches IMHO, it is just not only the run game anymore it is pass protection and pass rush that wins games. You have to be able to stop the run and pressure the passer on defense in today's NFL. The shutdown CB is the luxury, not the key cog in the defense and needs to be valued appropriately.

Mile High Shack
12-30-2010, 09:44 AM
I might agree with the fact that Peterson is the most talented and potentially best player at any postion on defense.

What I will not agree with is the value of a shutdown CB anymore. We have had Champ for 7 years now and this defense has been average or worse. Asomugha has never tasted the playoffs in 6 years with that putrid Raiders defense. Revis has not put the Jets anywhere special. Woodson has never seen the SB and only one Conference championship game.

The whole reason Deion Sanders won championships is he skipped Atlanta and went to the 2 most dominant teams in the league in SF and DAL :thumbs: Atlanta was never good because of Deion!

Seriously people, I am asking you to weigh the merits of a shutdown CB in today's NFL. that guy can only cover 1 of 5 eligible Receivers! They can be taken out of the game and you can still beat their teams by simply ignoring them. Asomugha has been all-pro level for 5 years and the Raiders defense has still sucked. Champ has been all-pro for 6 years and DEN's defense was average only for 2 years and has sucked since. Revis has been all-pro for 3 years and NYJ's limped into the playoffs after their coach thought they were eliminated last year and INDY rested their starters last year. Then, Manning tore them apart in the AFCCG because he could target other players. Woodson was the defensive player of the year last year and ARI put up 50 points on them in the playoffs to eliminate them.

Shutdown CB's are simply not as effective anymore as high powered offenses are able to utilize "11" personnel so effectively. They spread out the field and the QB can choose from 4 legit other targets to make a play and selectively pass by the Shutdown CB and still score 30+ points.

The game is still won in the trenches IMHO, it is just not only the run game anymore it is pass protection and pass rush that wins games. You have to be able to stop the run and pressure the passer on defense in today's NFL. The shutdown CB is the luxury, not the key cog in the defense and needs to be valued appropriately.

this is why, since I can't state it as eloquently as mediator can, I don't want to take a CB so high

Drek
12-30-2010, 09:46 AM
A little bit. But can you also mention how he was getting out produced by Buck on half the carries?

I'm not defending his production. I'm just pointing out that the team obviously decided he was 1. a great system fit who 2. could contribute immediately.

The two criteria Med said teams should be drafting for. In response to a post suggesting Moreno defied those criteria when in fact he was probably the only first round pick out of McDaniels' four that truly conformed to it (Ayers - developmental DL to OLB, Thomas blocked by Lloyd, Gaffney, etc., Tebow blocked by Orton a supposedly "developmental" QB).

Moreno's production is just hindsight being 20/20. But the reasoning behind his selection was sound.

Mediator12
12-30-2010, 09:54 AM
Of course they commended him. He's giving these guys a job and contracts that 95% of would NOT be earning on another NFL team.

9 million dollars for a year of Kyle Orton? That had BETTER come with a blow job.Games I felt Denver was prepared in:

That's a personnel issue and he did very well for most of the season.
2010:

Seattle, Indy, Jets, KC (Titans left off purposely)

2009:

First 6 (real preparation or no scouting edge?)
NYG, KC and loss at Philly was well played.

What would you add from your observations?

I would add that its real hard to tell preparation from execution on game day. I have seen teams be immaculately prepared and get destroyed by poor execution. I have seen great playcalls get screwed by a rookie blowing his assignment, or a weak player get blown off the LOS and create huge gaps for RB's to go through. I have seen teams make adjustments to what a team is doing and not be able to execute them mentally fast enough and still get beaten.

I find it hard to believe you are actually arguing preparation. Being prepared and actually doing something with the preparation on game day is totally different. It takes players doing their jobs and outplaying the guy in front of them. That is what I have questioned for awhile. Do we have enough players to play this way. I still do not think so, but I hate the fact the Run offense is so damn ineffective with the OL talent they have.

Drek
12-30-2010, 09:54 AM
The game is still won in the trenches IMHO, it is just not only the run game anymore it is pass protection and pass rush that wins games. You have to be able to stop the run and pressure the passer on defense in today's NFL. The shutdown CB is the luxury, not the key cog in the defense and needs to be valued appropriately.

Sure, but if he's head and shoulders above his defensive peers it goes a long ways to mitigate the discrepancy in positional value. Not to mention his ST contributions.

I think first and foremost Peterson, much like a legit 1B to Andrew Luck's 1A (Cam Newton?) should be used as bait to trade back. But barring that this is a defense in need of game changers at more than just the DL. We can hit DL early and often with our seconds and again next year without having to pass up on someone like Peterson. The defense isn't going to become elite overnight and committing to the DL needs to be an every year, multiple round thing. Not just "we used the #2 overall pick on it so we're committed to DL, now watch us take offensive skill positions with the two seconds and our first rounded next year".

Of course that all changes if someone like Dareus, who has a real track record of collegiate production and versatility, leaves early and grades out close to Peterson. It doesn't change for though if a one year wonder like Fairley looks impressive at the combine and his pro-day. He's just too much of a risk.

Rohirrim
12-30-2010, 09:55 AM
It more likely it will be exactly the opposite scenario. Defense linemen rarely make an impact their first season because the need to improve their techinque vs depend on their physical skill like the do in college. A linebacker or corner is going to pay off sooner because they live off their physical skills.

I read once that 4% of rookies make an impact in their first year, across the board. Peterson will probably make more of an impact returning kicks than as a CB. From what I've seen of Fairley his athleticism and strength puts him ahead of the curve. He can bull rush, chase down runners and already has a couple of good rush moves. I don't see how Peterson's first year impact would be rated much higher, if at all. I can understand the generality you're talking about, but between these two individual players, I think Fairley would impact the Broncos sooner than Peterson, simply because our Dline is so bad, a player like him would be an immediate upgrade.

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 10:16 AM
I would add that its real hard to tell preparation from execution on game day. I have seen teams be immaculately prepared and get destroyed by poor execution. I have seen great playcalls get screwed by a rookie blowing his assignment, or a weak player get blown off the LOS and create huge gaps for RB's to go through. I have seen teams make adjustments to what a team is doing and not be able to execute them mentally fast enough and still get beaten.

I find it hard to believe you are actually arguing preparation. Being prepared and actually doing something with the preparation on game day is totally different. It takes players doing their jobs and outplaying the guy in front of them. That is what I have questioned for awhile. Do we have enough players to play this way. I still do not think so, but I hate the fact the Run offense is so damn ineffective with the OL talent they have.

I'll agree that it's somewhat subjective. If you're feeling WAS that they were prepared, just completely outmatched, then why not respond to this point, which is a GLARING indication of preparation:

And I didn't bother to include the personnel groupings and stupid delay of game penalties and randomly blown timeouts, etc, since Shack took care of that already.

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 10:16 AM
I read once that 4% of rookies make an impact in their first year, across the board. Peterson will probably make more of an impact returning kicks than as a CB. From what I've seen of Fairley his athleticism and strength puts him ahead of the curve. He can bull rush, chase down runners and already has a couple of good rush moves. I don't see how Peterson's first year impact would be rated much higher, if at all. I can understand the generality you're talking about, but between these two individual players, I think Fairley would impact the Broncos sooner than Peterson, simply because our Dline is so bad, a player like him would be an immediate upgrade.

Corners can play right away.

LRtagger
12-30-2010, 10:25 AM
I'd argue that Bowlen (and most other owners actually) would probably have been better off the last 5-10 years if he simply fired his entire scouting department and literally went with Mayock's board year in and year out.

Mayock had Ayers and Moreno in the top 5 of his big board in 09.

Beantown Bronco
12-30-2010, 10:43 AM
Mayock had Ayers and Moreno in the top 5 of his big board in 09.

Bingo. So there you go. Hundreds of thousands of dollars (or millions) in salaries and expenses saved right there by doing away with the scouting dept.

LRtagger
12-30-2010, 10:46 AM
Bingo. So there you go. Hundreds of thousands of dollars (or millions) in salaries and expenses saved right there by doing away with the scouting dept.

Just pointing out that maybe that was Josh's plan. Anyone know if Mayock had a first round grade on Phonz? :~ohyah!:

Mediator12
12-30-2010, 10:55 AM
Sure, but if he's head and shoulders above his defensive peers it goes a long ways to mitigate the discrepancy in positional value. Not to mention his ST contributions.

I think first and foremost Peterson, much like a legit 1B to Andrew Luck's 1A (Cam Newton?) should be used as bait to trade back. But barring that this is a defense in need of game changers at more than just the DL. We can hit DL early and often with our seconds and again next year without having to pass up on someone like Peterson. The defense isn't going to become elite overnight and committing to the DL needs to be an every year, multiple round thing. Not just "we used the #2 overall pick on it so we're committed to DL, now watch us take offensive skill positions with the two seconds and our first rounded next year".

Of course that all changes if someone like Dareus, who has a real track record of collegiate production and versatility, leaves early and grades out close to Peterson. It doesn't change for though if a one year wonder like Fairley looks impressive at the combine and his pro-day. He's just too much of a risk.

1. You assume Peterson is head and Shoulders above the rest of the defensive class. I am not sure that is true yet, but i have not done my homework there so I can not say if this is true or just your assumption.

2. There are several DL in this draft that would start right away for DEN and make a huge difference. I can not accurately say how much until I finish my DL work. I am still waiting on Bowl games and all-star games.

3. The defense is not going to be Elite overnight, but you need TOP DL and this year there are at least 5-6 elite level core guys you miss if you wait for the second round again! All those guys will need a few years to develop, if at all, and that means the defense will still need DL to develop in the future. The DL has been neglected for too long and it shows on the field every game and if they pass on a top 5 DL AGAIN, they will be drafting here again next year IMHO.

4. Fairley is not a typical one year wonder though. He played behind NFL talent at Auburn and this is his junior year, not his senior year. IMHO, he can play 5 TECH and then be a nickel pass rusher and dominate. However, you waste him as a 5 tech in a 2 gap defense. If you run the DAL one gap 3-4 he could be a monster, but still not the total value of playing UT in a 4-3.

Drek
12-30-2010, 11:53 AM
1. You assume Peterson is head and Shoulders above the rest of the defensive class. I am not sure that is true yet, but i have not done my homework there so I can not say if this is true or just your assumption.
Sure, its all based on that hypothetical. Its not necessarily true and when the full NFL scouting machine goes into effect some debilitating weakness about Peterson's game might be revealed. But I personally think he's that kind of talent, so I work under that assumption.

2. There are several DL in this draft that would start right away for DEN and make a huge difference. I can not accurately say how much until I finish my DL work. I am still waiting on Bowl games and all-star games.
Thats good to hear. Do you think all of those DL will be top 15-20 guys? A lot of talent slides every year. Right now I wouldn't be surprised if Adrian Clayborn gets nit picked apart in the scouting season for example. I think he'd be fantastic as a 3-4 DE despite being a little undersized, but he might be available in the second the further he we get from when he played in meaningful games.

3. The defense is not going to be Elite overnight, but you need TOP DL and this year there are at least 5-6 elite level core guys you miss if you wait for the second round again! All those guys will need a few years to develop, if at all, and that means the defense will still need DL to develop in the future. The DL has been neglected for too long and it shows on the field every game and if they pass on a top 5 DL AGAIN, they will be drafting here again next year IMHO.
But will taking a top 5 DL mean they won't be back in the top 5 next year? My point is that even if we draft a Dareus or Fairley and he plays on par with what Suh did as a rookie is that alone enough to turn around a defense that looked completely unable to mount any resistance to good running attacks all last year? Doom will be a plus as well, but even assuming Bannan plays as well or better than he did this season next year we still have no real answer for NT, our safeties are a joke, Goodman has fallen off the cliff of father time, and none of our young CBs look like they're a better fit for nickel/dime or will be serving one.

Its entirely possible that no matter who we take we'll be back in the top 10, if not top 5, next year. If so then its all about getting the absolute best player at a need position, even if its not the absolute biggest need position.

4. Fairley is not a typical one year wonder though. He played behind NFL talent at Auburn and this is his junior year, not his senior year. IMHO, he can play 5 TECH and then be a nickel pass rusher and dominate. However, you waste him as a 5 tech in a 2 gap defense. If you run the DAL one gap 3-4 he could be a monster, but still not the total value of playing UT in a 4-3.
If Fairley went back and put up another season like this next year I'd be fully on board with him being a top 5 pick. But any player who had to first go through Juco, then didn't represent strong his first year of D-1, only to then blow up as a redshirt junior leaves me with serious questions about motivation and work ethic. It goes doubly so for DL where so many players have had great collegiate careers built on raw physical ability and then the lack of work ethic is displayed when they never mature in the NFL.

He's got amazing talent but for a team that needs this pick to be a home run he scares the **** out of me.

Its way, way too early to talk definitively about any of these prospects. I'm just saying that in theory if you have a guy like Peterson rated head and shoulders above the best DL and you still need CB help it makes a lot of sense to take the best player and invest heavily in the line with the pair of seconds instead of taking a DL at #2 to fill the biggest need.

It'll all hopefully be irrelevant come this Sunday though when Tebow dismantles the chargers and we drop back from #2 to the middle of the top 10, likely out of range for Peterson.

Dedhed
12-30-2010, 11:57 AM
I might agree with the fact that Peterson is the most talented and potentially best player at any postion on defense.

What I will not agree with is the value of a shutdown CB anymore. We have had Champ for 7 years now and this defense has been average or worse. I think that's a backwards way of looking at it. No single player makes a defense, which is another reason I think targeting one position is short sighted.

Apply your argument to Mario Williams and you get the same result. A better way to look at it would be to try to imagine what we would be like without Champ. In 2005 he carried the Broncos to their only playoff win in a decade, and was probably the most impactful single player in the league.



Asomugha has never tasted the playoffs in 6 years with that putrid Raiders defense. Revis has not put the Jets anywhere special. Woodson has never seen the SB and only one Conference championship game.

The whole reason Deion Sanders won championships is he skipped Atlanta and went to the 2 most dominant teams in the league in SF and DAL :thumbs: Atlanta was never good because of Deion!

Seriously people, I am asking you to weigh the merits of a shutdown CB in today's NFL. that guy can only cover 1 of 5 eligible Receivers! They can be taken out of the game and you can still beat their teams by simply ignoring them. Asomugha has been all-pro level for 5 years and the Raiders defense has still sucked. Champ has been all-pro for 6 years and DEN's defense was average only for 2 years and has sucked since. Revis has been all-pro for 3 years and NYJ's limped into the playoffs after their coach thought they were eliminated last year and INDY rested their starters last year. Then, Manning tore them apart in the AFCCG because he could target other players. Woodson was the defensive player of the year last year and ARI put up 50 points on them in the playoffs to eliminate them.

Shutdown CB's are simply not as effective anymore as high powered offenses are able to utilize "11" personnel so effectively. They spread out the field and the QB can choose from 4 legit other targets to make a play and selectively pass by the Shutdown CB and still score 30+ points.

The game is still won in the trenches IMHO, it is just not only the run game anymore it is pass protection and pass rush that wins games. You have to be able to stop the run and pressure the passer on defense in today's NFL. The shutdown CB is the luxury, not the key cog in the defense and needs to be valued appropriately.Giving examples of great CBs who haven't won SBs is totally specious. You can do the exact same thing with Haynesworth, Jason Taylor, Mario Williams, and every other great DL who have never won anything.

The Texans have taken a DL in the top 20 picks 3 of the last 5 years, and are the worst defense in the league. They went from 18th against the pass to dead last with the loss of Dunta Robinson.

It is a giant fallacy that the best defenses are built on drafting DL in the first round.

The Steelers have had one of the best DL in the league for over a decade, and have only taken 2 DL in the first round over that period; both very late in the 1st. The player with the most impact on that team is a DB.

The exact same thing can be said for the Ravens.

The Giants have taken only two DL in round 1, neither of which is a major contributor to their DL success. One of which started only 17 games in 5 years before being shipped to Oakland where he's had no impact at all.


Here are the top 10 defenses in the league and the number of first round picks they've devoted to DL this decade:

1-Chargers- Luis Castillo (solid)

2-Steelers-Casey Hampton (stud), Ziggy Hood (rotational guy with minimal impact thus far.)

0-Dolphins

2-Jets- Shaun Ellis (Solid) and Dwayne Robertson (Bust)

3-Saints- Jonathan Sullivan (1 decent season, released) Will Smith (Solid), Sedrick Ellis (Solid)

2-Giants- William Joseph and Kiwanuka- Neither contributing this year.

2-Vikings- Kenechi Udeze(solid), Kevin Williams(solid)

2-Ravens-Ngata and Dwan Edwards

3-Packers-Justin Harrell (not contributing this year at all) Jamaal Reynolds (Never started, 14 tackles in 3 years;released) BJ Raji (looks good)

3-Bears- Michael Haynes (4 starts in 3 years, gone), Jarron Gilbert (Bust), Tommie Harris (Solid)

That's 19 top picks in the last decade spent on DL. Only 10 of those players are contributing to their teams this year.

Steve Sewell
12-30-2010, 12:04 PM
Wow the size/speed/athleticism/change of direction are crazy on this guy! This guy is one of those true "difference makers"

Beantown Bronco
12-30-2010, 12:14 PM
Wow, Dedhed.

Now THAT'S how you present and support an argument. Very interesting. Rep.

bowtown
12-30-2010, 12:21 PM
2-Giants- William Joseph and Kiwanuka- Neither contributing this year.


This is nitpicking but the Giants selected Pierre-Paul with their 1st last year, and he has been coming on strong over the past few weeks.

Mediator12
12-30-2010, 01:23 PM
I think that's a backwards way of looking at it. No single player makes a defense, which is another reason I think targeting one position is short sighted.

It is. That is why you you look at the whole and what impact a player can have. Targeting Peterson is the exact same fallacy.

Apply your argument to Mario Williams and you get the same result. A better way to look at it would be to try to imagine what we would be like without Champ. In 2005 he carried the Broncos to their only playoff win in a decade, and was probably the most impactful single player in the league.

I disagree with this. Champ played outstanding in 2005, but DEN had a top 2 rush defense. They had the Browncos to complement Champ and the Cover zero rush scheme implementedfor pass rush. The scheme and the rush defense were just as responsible for that 13-3 season as Champ's outstanding play. He had a DL for help, they were just not great pass rushers and had to use a gimmick defense to get Pressure on the QB! However, the DL excelled at stopping the run in a run dominated AFCW too.

Giving examples of great CBs who haven't won SBs is totally specious. You can do the exact same thing with Haynesworth, Jason Taylor, Mario Williams, and every other great DL who have never won anything.

It is specious, but its also telling about the value of a ShutDown CB. A shutdown CB is NOT as valuable as a Solid DL. It is NOT a ticket to the promised land for a defense. Having a credible DL is. That is best accomplished by having a DL that can dominate or at least a front Seven in the case of the 3-4 Defense.

The Texans have taken a DL in the top 20 picks 3 of the last 5 years, and are the worst defense in the league. They went from 18th against the pass to dead last with the loss of Dunta Robinson.

There were a lot of other factors, including picking bad players in some of those spots. That is the risk in overdrafting DL or any player. Travis Johnson is not on the team and Amobi okoye has been a replacement level player. Missing on 2 out of 3 top picks will kill your defense. They have also lost some other quality players on that defense and tried to let a top Rookie CB start. That has not been very productive either by the way.

It is a giant fallacy that the best defenses are built on drafting DL in the first round.

The Steelers have had one of the best DL in the league for over a decade, and have only taken 2 DL in the first round over that period; both very late in the 1st. The player with the most impact on that team is a DB.

Their DL is not one of the best in the league, their front seven is one of the best in the league. What they do have is very good scheme players on the DL to go with the required Stud NT in Hampton. They have been so good in that scheme for so long they had the luxury of using a first rounder on a Safety like Troy Polomalu and have a former Defensive player of the year who was an UDFA! If DEN had the stud NT, the Stud LB's, and the required Scheme DE's like PIT then Drafting a player like Peterson would be a no Brainer!


The exact same thing can be said for the Ravens.

No. Flat out No. They used a first on Suggs and Ngata. Two Probowl level players and have great players in their front seven like Lewis, Kelly Gregg, and Jarret Johnson. What they have is 2 for 2 on first round shots.

The Giants have taken only two DL in round 1, neither of which is a major contributor to their DL success. One of which started only 17 games in 5 years before being shipped to Oakland where he's had no impact at all.

This is certainly true, but its not about drafting early, its about having a great DL. NYG's have had one for ever with Strahan, Umenyiora, Barry Cofield, Justin Tuck, and Kiwinuka who never could find a place on their DL and was miscast as a LB for 2 years. Teams that have a dearth of DL talent should Pick a guy Like Peterson. That is my argument, DEN has no DL talent and none in the development phases either. None. That is why I want DL taken early and often in this draft. There are a ton of quality Complete DL available and a lot more if the underclassmen declare!

Here are the top 10 defenses in the league and the number of first round picks they've devoted to DL this decade:

1-Chargers- You missed Louis Castillo

2-Steelers-Casey Hampton (stud), Ziggy Hood (rotational guy with minimal impact thus far.)

0-Dolphins

2-Jets- Shaun Ellis (Solid) and Dwayne Robertson (Bust)

3-Saints- Jonathan Sullivan (1 decent season, released) Will Smith (Solid), Sedrick Ellis (Solid)

2-Giants- William Joseph and Kiwanuka- Neither contributing this year.

2-Vikings- Kenechi Udeze(solid), Kevin Williams(solid) Udeze is out of the league, Ray Edwards ???

2-Ravens-Ngata and Dwan Edwards and Terrell Suggs

3-Packers-Justin Harrell (not contributing this year at all) Jamaal Reynolds (Never started, 14 tackles in 3 years;released) BJ Raji (looks good)

3-Bears- Michael Haynes (4 starts in 3 years, gone), Jarron Gilbert (Bust), Tommie Harris (Solid)

That's 19 top picks in the last decade spent on DL. Only 10 of those players are contributing to their teams this year.

I see that you think my point is about drafting DL, it is not. It is about having a solid DL overall. I agree drafting can be a really hit or miss thing for a defensive Lineman, the trick is not screwing up like HOU did! Right now, DEN has No DL that require the defense to gameplan against. That has been a recipe for disaster for the last 5 years. They only have one in their front seven and that is on passing Downs With Dumervil. If they had players in the development stages at DL, which they do not, we would not even be having this conversation taking Peterson would be a no brainer.

However, they still need to acquire a solid DL and no more stopgaps. They need to invest heavily in a great draft for this style of DL on defense. No more Tim Crowder second round throwaway picks or moving up for a development player Like Jarvis Moss. No more Moving up for a Marcus Thomas as a savior in the middle rounds. They have tried selecting DL in the second tier and struck out so bad they are in this tremendous mess!

That is WHY I am so deadset against Peterson. He will be a worthless piece without a real DL, just like Champ has been the last four seasons. Then, It will be the seventh year they have neglected to improve their DL through the draft unless they finally score on a real DL like they did with Dumervil who is best as an OLB.

Requiem
12-30-2010, 01:46 PM
Denver can still get a quality defensive lineman with either of their picks in the early second round or third round and still nab Peterson at #2. I have a strong feeling that there will be players between #35-#45 (where I assume we'll be at in the second round, give or take a few) that could have a bigger impact than the current starters we have at the defensive line.

Dareus seems like the only guy in the Top 5 worthy of that selection who could really help our team from day one. I don't believe Fairley would, and I've discussed this ad nauseum in other threads across the forum. At least Dareus has versatility to make it stick in any scheme.

At the end of the day, if I have a shot at Patrick Peterson, I take him. Besides, who is to say that Denver doesn't do their homework and ends up packaging some picks (what we have or future) to move back up into the first and get one of their DL targets that they graded out high as well?

With two early seconds and a third, we are in a position to do a lot of things. I am hardly an advocate of moving up, but if need be, it could be done. I'd rather stand pat though, because I feel tremendous value will be at those selections.

I'd agree Mediator, without a quality DL, Peterson isn't going to have the ability to show his all-star ability. However, I disagree with the premise that if we don't take a DL in round one, we can't find anybody of impact. As you know, this class is loaded with DL (especially if the juniors come out) through the first few rounds and we should have our chance at quite a few of them.

What is so wrong about a draft that would go something like this:


(1) Patrick Peterson, DB -- LSU

(2A) Cameron Heyward, DL -- OSU or Jared Crick, DL -- Nebraska (Either could play the 5 here, I saw you grade out Crick as a top five selection, but I honestly don't see that happening, however anything could happen!)

(2B) Best Defensive Player Available (S, LB)

(3) Jerrell Powe, NT -- Ole Miss (Some say this might be far too low, but I have my reservations about a guy who had some inconsistency this year and is already 24 years old.)


There are a lot of ways we can improve the team, and I feel that as of right now that is a plausible scenario. I just don't feel there is an ultimatum to draft DL @ #2 - #5 unless Peterson is off the board. I'd feel a lot more comfortable in trading down, especially when some of the other top juniors and prospects considered don't even project well into a 3-4.

As of right now, there is a lot of ambiguity all-around. We don't know who our coaches will be or what even scheme we might be employing. For certain, the value of boards will be changing pending those outcomes, especially when it comes to grading players on scheme effectiveness.

All and all, I think this is a tremendous opportunity for us to upgrade our team. I hope we do not blow it.

bronco_diesel
12-30-2010, 02:05 PM
What is so wrong about a draft that would go something like this:

(1) Patrick Peterson, DB -- LSU

(2A) Cameron Heyward, DL -- OSU or Jared Crick, DL -- Nebraska (Either could play the 5 here, I saw you grade out Crick as a top five selection, but I honestly don't see that happening, however anything could happen!)

(2B) Best Defensive Player Available (S, LB)

(3) Jerrell Powe, NT -- Ole Miss (Some say this might be far too low, but I have my reservations about a guy who had some inconsistency this year and is already 24 years old.)




This is basically the same mock I put together yesterday just goofing around. I had Powe at 2B though.

Requiem
12-30-2010, 02:11 PM
That is where I originally had him slated.

I have an excel sheet going on with a list of potential targets for the team this April, with about 10-15 sites (draft sites, that I respect) that do mocks. For each player, I place where they go in the mock per each site, and try to come up with their average value between all sites. For Powe, I ended up getting a closer slating to our third round selection.

Now this isn't the most sound way about guessing value, but I think it is an interesting one!

fdf
12-30-2010, 02:38 PM
Peterson is worth a top 5 pick to a team with a real DL and the ability to control the LOS in run or pass situations. DEN is NOT NOT NOT that team! Period.

Of course, teams with a real DL and the ability to control the LOS don't have top 5 picks.

OrangeSe7en
12-30-2010, 02:42 PM
Its amazing that people want Peterson, whose primary contributions will come on passing downs, but on those same downs, when the DE is one gapping, people say Fairley doesnt work.

Getting pressure on the QB is more important.

Hamrob
12-30-2010, 02:51 PM
I think that's a backwards way of looking at it. No single player makes a defense, which is another reason I think targeting one position is short sighted.

Apply your argument to Mario Williams and you get the same result. A better way to look at it would be to try to imagine what we would be like without Champ. In 2005 he carried the Broncos to their only playoff win in a decade, and was probably the most impactful single player in the league.



Giving examples of great CBs who haven't won SBs is totally specious. You can do the exact same thing with Haynesworth, Jason Taylor, Mario Williams, and every other great DL who have never won anything.

The Texans have taken a DL in the top 20 picks 3 of the last 5 years, and are the worst defense in the league. They went from 18th against the pass to dead last with the loss of Dunta Robinson.

It is a giant fallacy that the best defenses are built on drafting DL in the first round.

The Steelers have had one of the best DL in the league for over a decade, and have only taken 2 DL in the first round over that period; both very late in the 1st. The player with the most impact on that team is a DB.

The exact same thing can be said for the Ravens.

The Giants have taken only two DL in round 1, neither of which is a major contributor to their DL success. One of which started only 17 games in 5 years before being shipped to Oakland where he's had no impact at all.


Here are the top 10 defenses in the league and the number of first round picks they've devoted to DL this decade:

1-Chargers- Luis Castillo (solid)

2-Steelers-Casey Hampton (stud), Ziggy Hood (rotational guy with minimal impact thus far.)

0-Dolphins

2-Jets- Shaun Ellis (Solid) and Dwayne Robertson (Bust)

3-Saints- Jonathan Sullivan (1 decent season, released) Will Smith (Solid), Sedrick Ellis (Solid)

2-Giants- William Joseph and Kiwanuka- Neither contributing this year.

2-Vikings- Kenechi Udeze(solid), Kevin Williams(solid)

2-Ravens-Ngata and Dwan Edwards

3-Packers-Justin Harrell (not contributing this year at all) Jamaal Reynolds (Never started, 14 tackles in 3 years;released) BJ Raji (looks good)

3-Bears- Michael Haynes (4 starts in 3 years, gone), Jarron Gilbert (Bust), Tommie Harris (Solid)

That's 19 top picks in the last decade spent on DL. Only 10 of those players are contributing to their teams this year.

1. That's 50% success rate on DLine
2. Would you like to try doing the same thing for CB's?
3. How about we use 2 1's on Dline before we select a CB?

Dedhed
12-30-2010, 03:05 PM
[COLOR="Red"]That is why you you look at the whole and what impact a player can have. Targeting Peterson is the exact same fallacy.You're not making a point here. If you look at the whole, and the fact that the entire defense is terrible, taking the best defensive player makes the most sense.

Champ played outstanding in 2005, but DEN had a top 2 rush defense. They had the Browncos to complement Champ and the Cover zero rush scheme implementedfor pass rush. The scheme and the rush defense were just as responsible for that 13-3 season as Champ's outstanding play. He had a DL for help, they were just not great pass rushers and had to use a gimmick defense to get Pressure on the QB! However, the DL excelled at stopping the run in a run dominated AFCW too.It is specious, but its also telling about the value of a ShutDown CB. A shutdown CB is NOT as valuable as a Solid DL. It is NOT a ticket to the promised land for a defense. Having a credible DL is. That is best accomplished by having a DL that can dominate or at least a front Seven in the case of the 3-4 Defense. Do you think they can play that scheme without Champ? No. Champ upgraded the value of every retread Brownco and no talent LB we had on the roster because he basically shut down an entire half of the field, allowed us to put 8-9 guys in the box to stop the run. That was a no talent group that had moderate success due to a scheme designed around a single CB.


There were a lot of other factors, including picking bad players in some of those spots. Further reason to avoid DL high in the first round. They have an extremely high bust rate. Worse than any position.

That is the risk in overdrafting DL or any player. Travis Johnson is not on the team and Amobi okoye has been a replacement level player. Missing on 2 out of 3 top picks will kill your defense.33% is about the success rate of first round DL.

They have also lost some other quality players on that defense and tried to let a top Rookie CB start. That has not been very productive either by the way.Their starting DL is exactly the same as in 2009. Losing Dunta Robinson and Jacques Reeves destroyed that defense. Hardly supports your CB argument.


Re: Steelers- Their DL is not one of the best in the league, their front seven is one of the best in the league. What they do have is very good scheme players on the DL to go with the required Stud NT in Hampton. They have been so good in that scheme for so long they had the luxury of using a first rounder on a Safety like Troy Polomalu and have a former Defensive player of the year who was an UDFA! If DEN had the stud NT, the Stud LB's, and the required Scheme DE's like PIT then Drafting a player like Peterson would be a no Brainer!Their defense is built around the best defender in the league: Polomalu, a DB. They're dominant front 7 has struggled the last few weeks without him.

No. Flat out No. They used a first on Suggs and Ngata. Two Probowl level players and have great players in their front seven like Lewis, Kelly Gregg, and Jarret Johnson. Suggs was drafted to play OLB. You're taking the argument in a different direction now. We're talking about DL vs CB.


This is certainly true, but its not about drafting early, its about having a great DL. NYG's have had one for ever with Strahan, Umenyiora, Barry Cofield, Justin Tuck,Every single one of which was taken after the first round. My point is that it's not about having a great DL, it's about having a great defense. We're in position to draft a franchise defender.

Teams that have a dearth of DL talent should Pick a guy Like Peterson. That is my argument, DEN has no DL talent and none in the development phases either. None. That is why I want DL taken early and often in this draft. There are a ton of quality Complete DL available and a lot more if the underclassmen declare!I have no issue with taking 3 DL in the first 4 picks if that's what it comes to. I have issue with passing on Peterson in favor of a lesser talent just because of his position. Imagine our secondary without Champ and Cox, neither is at all a guarantee to be here next year.

I see that you think my point is about drafting DL, it is not. It is about having a solid DL overall. If you're talking about passing on Peterson to take a DL then your point is about drafting DL whether you know it or not.


I agree drafting can be a really hit or miss thing for a defensive Lineman, the trick is not screwing up like HOU did!The miss rate is about the same for every team in the league when it comes to drafting DL in the 1st round. It's the highest miss position by far. Saying "we shouldn't miss" is like saying all you have to do is pick players that you know are going to be great NFL players.

However, they still need to acquire a solid DL and no more stopgaps. They need to invest heavily in a great draft for this style of DL on defense. No more Tim Crowder second round throwaway picks or moving up for a development player Like Jarvis Moss. No more Moving up for a Marcus Thomas as a savior in the middle rounds. They have tried selecting DL in the second tier and struck out so bad they are in this tremendous mess!Almost every example of a great DL you've mentioned has been built on "second tier guys" who fit a system.

That is WHY I am so deadset against Peterson. He will be a worthless piece without a real DL, just like Champ has been the last four seasons. Then, It will be the seventh year they have neglected to improve their DL through the draft unless they finally score on a real DL like they did with Dumervil who is best as an OLB.Calling Champ worthless is absurd. And taking two DL in the 2nd would hardly be "neglecting to improve the DL"

Every year there are 2-3 guys who will be studs no matter where they go. Last year it was Bradford and Suh. This year it's Luck and Peterson. After that it's a matter of finding guys who fit your system. When you have the chance to draft one of those few franchise guys you don't pass on them.

Fairley, Bowers, Dareus, and Quinn are not in the class of Suh or Peterson.

Rohirrim
12-30-2010, 03:22 PM
The only way it makes sense to take Peterson over Fairley is if he's going to play Safety. Even then, it's debatable. Elite 300+ pound pass rushers are harder to find than CBs and have a bigger impact on the win/loss column of a team.

Bronco Yoda
12-30-2010, 10:12 PM
Here we are building a house. We're in the early stages of pouring the concrete foundation and rebar... budget is super tight. Winter is almost here. You're just crossing your fingers you can get everthing prepped for framing in the early spring.

And the owners wife shows up. She's fallen in love with a shiny chandelier on sale. Stop the pouring. Put tarps on over everything. A change in the budget and timeline.

We gotta buy that lighting! There's always next year to finish that stupid foundation. Who the hell needs a foundation anyway? We can hang that damn chandelier from a tree all winter long. Plug it in with a long extension cable.

Ooooh. . . that will look so pretty!

bowtown
12-30-2010, 10:17 PM
Here we are building a house. We're in the early stages of pouring the concrete foundation and rebar... budget is super tight. Winter is almost here. You're just crossing your fingers you can get everthing prepped for framing in the early spring.

And the owners wife shows up. She's fallen in love with a shiny chandelier on sale. Stop the pouring. Put tarps on over everything. A change in the budget and timeline.

We gotta buy that lighting! There's always next year to finish that stupid foundation. Who the hell needs a foundation anyway? We can hang that damn chandelier from a tree all winter long. Plug it in with a long extension cable.

Ooooh. . . that will look so pretty!

Except I think a better analogy would be a fancy fireplace. It isn't going to give you a roof over your head and you may be pretty wet, but for the most part you will stay warm. Not dry and living in you dream home, but you will be warm. I might be willing to take really warm and hope the foundation can be built in the later rounds, especially seeing as how that fire place looks like it puts out a ton of heat.

NFLBRONCO
12-30-2010, 11:05 PM
The question is, if we stay at #2 and take Peterson, does he win us any games next year? Probably not. If we were to study time to impact of Fairley (for example) against Peterson, Fairley probably comes out better. Peterson may get an INT here and there, make some tackles or knock down some passes, but a guy like Fairley brings the pass rush, TOs created, fumbles, and QB hurries. It seems to me that rating Peterson higher also means you put off his impact. In other words, he's a long term investment. You are saying that once we get a pass rush together, he will be an impact player. With a guy like Fairley, you have a better chance of having immediate impact.

The only other consideration is Peterson as a punt returner.

Look at Houston their DL is way better then ours and have 5 wins. I bet they'd take Peterson in a heartbeat. Us adding a DL will help not doubt but, will it fix all flaws on our D NO. So I don't see how talking a legit talent hurts ever.

If Denver passes on Peterson and goes DL I understand but, trade down first please. DL has one of the highest bust rates in the draft that scares me at 2.
Peterson is a safer pick at 2.

Hamrob
12-30-2010, 11:09 PM
Really this is all a meaningless conversation. We will beat the Chargers and most likely end up drafting #5. Then we will decide between Fairley and Dareus!

NFLBRONCO
12-30-2010, 11:12 PM
Really this is all a meaningless conversation. We will beat the Chargers and most likely end up drafting #5. Then we will decide between Fairley and Dareus!

If we pick 5 those guys are fine by me.

bowtown
12-30-2010, 11:12 PM
Look at Houston their DL is way better then ours and have 5 wins. I bet they'd take Peterson in a heartbeat. Us adding a DL will help not doubt but, will it fix all flaws on our D NO. So I don't see how talking a legit talent hurts ever.

I'm not sure if that says more about having a talented Dline or more about Houston's defensive coaching. Williams eventually became dominant, but I still think it took him way too long. I have questions about their ability to develop the Dline talent they have. I had similar worries with Shanahan.

bowtown
12-30-2010, 11:13 PM
Really this is all a meaningless conversation. We will beat the Chargers and most likely end up drafting #5. Then we will decide between Fairley and Dareus!

I'm pretty drunk, but this is about the most eye-to-eye I've been with you in a long time. Let's go... Broncos

NFLBRONCO
12-30-2010, 11:15 PM
I'm not sure if that says more about having a talented Dline or more about Houston's defensive coaching. Williams eventually became dominant, but I still think it took him way too long. I have questions about their ability to develop the Dline talent they have. I had similar worries with Shanahan.

agree good point

SoCalBronco
12-30-2010, 11:20 PM
Don't like the attention whoring and game playing this biatch did during recruiting, but he's definitely a talent.

NFLBRONCO
12-30-2010, 11:22 PM
Who in top 5 would take Peterson? Det Den anyone else

bowtown
12-30-2010, 11:23 PM
Don't like the attention whoring and game playing this biatch did during recruiting, but he's definitely a talent.

I don't know this story. Care to expand?

SoCalBronco
12-30-2010, 11:45 PM
I don't know this story. Care to expand?

PJ (as he was known at the time, he has since changed his last name from Johnson to Peterson) was a Miami commit for almost a year, constantly flashed the "U" and talked about being part of the "U" ("you either come to the U or get beat by the U") and reaffirmed his commitment to Miami repeatedly when questioned about rumors to the contrary only to $witch to L$U very close to signing day. He somehow retroactively claimed that the coaches stopped "showing him love" even though he was the jewel of the class and the top CB in the country and he had not made any previous complaints of the kind to Scout or Rivals or anyone else.

bowtown
12-30-2010, 11:50 PM
PJ (as he was known at the time, he has since changed his last name from Johnson to Peterson) was a Miami commit for almost a year, constantly flashed the "U" and talked about being part of the "U" and reaffirmed his commitment to Miami repeatedly when questioned about rumors to the contrary only to $witch to L$U very close to signing day. He somehow retroactively claimed that the coaches stopped "showing him love" even though he was the jewel of the class and the top CB in the country and he had not made any previous complaints of the kind to Scout or Rivals or anyone else.

Interesting. Thanks. That definitely has some impact on my impressions of the guy.

ohiobronco2
12-31-2010, 07:29 AM
Interesting. Thanks. That definitely has some impact on my impressions of the guy.

Well hell, then look at this. I guess we don't want to draft Fairley now either. :approve:



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Rohirrim
12-31-2010, 07:32 AM
Look at Houston their DL is way better then ours and have 5 wins. I bet they'd take Peterson in a heartbeat. Us adding a DL will help not doubt but, will it fix all flaws on our D NO. So I don't see how talking a legit talent hurts ever.

If Denver passes on Peterson and goes DL I understand but, trade down first please. DL has one of the highest bust rates in the draft that scares me at 2.
Peterson is a safer pick at 2.

Yeah, but the bust rate goes up as you go further down in the draft - they just don't hurt as much. Not to mention, from what SoCal pointed out about Peterson, he sounds like a holdout waiting to happen.

Rohirrim
12-31-2010, 07:35 AM
Well hell, then look at this. I guess we don't want to draft Fairley now either. :approve:



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The story I read behind this is that the Georgia coaches put out a hit on Fairley during that game because he was kicking their ass, and some of the Bulldog linemen went after Fairley's knees with some dirty chop blocks. He was just trying to show them it could go both ways.

NFLBRONCO
12-31-2010, 07:58 AM
Yeah, but the bust rate goes up as you go further down in the draft - they just don't hurt as much. Not to mention, from what SoCal pointed out about Peterson, he sounds like a holdout waiting to happen.

I think we might have tons of holdouts this year. If we trade down a bit and go DL great that's all I ask. SoCal is a wealth of information no wonder he's a mod :). We will find out sunday if we even get 2nd pick

DB-Freak
12-31-2010, 08:24 AM
The guy ran a 4.37 40 at an LSU work out this past may. That's a damn good 40 time. No need for him to move to safety.

Which means he probably runs 4.4 range in real time.

Mediator12
12-31-2010, 08:29 AM
I think we might have tons of holdouts this year. If we trade down a bit and go DL great that's all I ask. SoCal is a wealth of information no wonder he's a mod :). We will find out sunday if we even get 2nd pick

Holdouts from draft picks? I sincerely doubt it. Read this:

We estimate that a rookie wage scale would free up more than a billion dollars during the term of a five-year agreement, and more if it is a longer deal. That money would be redistributed to veterans and retired players. The new entry-level system would end rookie holdouts that damage relations between the player and team, and would eliminate the complexities in the current rookie contracts.
Under our proposal, mandatory contract lengths would be five years for first-round players (six years for quarterbacks), four years for second- through seventh-round picks and three years for undrafted rookies (as I was). Players and teams would be able to renegotiate and extend the initial contracts of first-round rookies after year three, and after year two for all other rookies.

Under the proposal, the first pick in the draft would sign a five-year contract and receive a $5.34 million signing bonus and $1.5 million salary his rookie year, even if he does not play a single down. In years two and three, his salary would be set at $1.7 million and $1.9 million, respectively. His fourth- and fifth-year salaries would rise to $2.3 million and $2.9 million for a total package of $15.6 million. (If he is a quarterback, he would be paid $4.3 million in year six.) The first pick would still be paid well, but at a much more reasonable level than under the current system.

By eliminating individual negotiations, a rookie wage scale should have the added benefit of reducing the influence of agents on our college campuses. Having served as a college athletic director for 16 years at Colgate and Northwestern, I know firsthand that even one unscrupulous agent who chooses to break NCAA rules can cause serious problems for a college and its players, resulting in the forfeiture of games, championships, awards and scholarships.

That is the rookie wage scale proposal on the table for the next CBA. It will be implemented before next year's draft. It might not have the same numbers, but there will be no more holdout's and no more agent BS.

Mediator12
12-31-2010, 08:31 AM
Which means he probably runs 4.4 range in real time.

He is tall and has a long stride. What he has in spades in recovery speed and long speed. If he tests well in the short shuttle and three cone then its legit NFL speed, with the bonus of recovery speed.

DB-Freak
12-31-2010, 08:33 AM
What would you have us do Med? I didn't read the whole thread.

I love the DL, but Patrick peterson does seem like a legit option at the spot although I hate taking CBs so damn high.

Mediator12
12-31-2010, 08:34 AM
The story I read behind this is that the Georgia coaches put out a hit on Fairley during that game because he was kicking their ass, and some of the Bulldog linemen went after Fairley's knees with some dirty chop blocks. He was just trying to show them it could go both ways.

Anyone who does not want a nasty Lineman on either side of the ball does not know football at all. The trenches are the only place the guys hit each other on every single Play. It takes a special kind of attitude to get hit every play and want to do it more than the guy trying to stop you.

This just makes me like him more, not less. He plays like a bat out of hell and I love that in a DL.

DB-Freak
12-31-2010, 08:40 AM
damn hes 222 pounds?

Must be a pretty freaky athlete if he can turn and change direction like a shutdown corner.

I know nothing of this guy, but can he turn and run with number one WRs in the nfl at 222 pounds?

I don't really know any shutdown corners at plus 210+.

DB-Freak
12-31-2010, 08:41 AM
And I really doubt the 4.37 times.

He probably come out around mid to high 4.4.

Although I think 40 yard times are super overrated.

peacepipe
12-31-2010, 08:52 AM
http://www.nola.com/lsu/index.ssf/2010/08/lsu_football_1.html

It also has been tempered by a large piece of humble pie, served up by his parents five years ago in the summer before his sophomore season at Pompano Beach's Ely High School. It was a sophomore season that didn't happen.

Unhappy with his son's performance in the classroom as a freshman, his father, who also was his position coach, waited until Peterson had gained his eligibility in summer school to tell him he wasn't playing.

"I cried my eyes out," Peterson recalled. "It was tough. I pulled my grades up in summer school to be eligible, but my dad was like 'Nah, you should have done it the first time around.'"

Peterson was off the team, and he had to show up at every game -- and his father insisted he explain to the fans why he was sitting. It wasn't easy on the elder Peterson, either. It was written up in the local newspaper and he heard about it from the fans, but was backed up by his wife, Shandra.

"That really made him the man he is today," the elder Peterson said. "He's a much better student, player and person. He learned that if you do the right things, everything else falls into place."

I have no doubts about his character

footstepsfrom#27
12-31-2010, 08:54 AM
Which means he probably runs 4.4 range in real time.
He was laser timed by NFL scouts at 4.37 last year. He's reportedly run in the 4.3 and below range but all the stopwatch/laser times aside, game speed with pads on can't be timed but can be seen. Watch that highlight reel and you'll see he has elite speed. He runs past college footballs fastest players on the field in the SEC. You can see the acceleration, the glide,, the ability to shift gears and directions, the ability to read blocks...he's compared with Deon Sanders by some scouts for a reason, and doing it on both defense and special teams is very Sanders-like. He's the highest ranked corner to come out in a decade. This is a guy you could cover Antonio Gates with one-on-one or let him come off the edge as a 225 pound quarterback chaser. He's the best player in the draft and if we get the #2 we'd be nuts not to snag him and then use both our #2's for the D-line. This guy's to good to pass up. He's a headhunter on defense who can terrorize receivers at will. You saw the video, he's intimidating and has that "it" factor. He's one of those guys who knows he's better than the other guy and he talks about it. That's the kind of on-field leadership and style that young players respond to. You can't buy that leadershp factor when you're trading points on value scales and all that mess. If you have a shot at a superstar player, for god's sake take him. This defense needs talent everywhere and it will take 3 drafts to build it to championship levels anyway. Our CB's are super thin already so it's not like this isn't also an immediate need.

Rohirrim
12-31-2010, 09:07 AM
Holdouts from draft picks? I sincerely doubt it. Read this:



That is the rookie wage scale proposal on the table for the next CBA. It will be implemented before next year's draft. It might not have the same numbers, but there will be no more holdout's and no more agent BS.

That would be absolutely great. How nice not to listen to that soap opera every year.

Mediator12
12-31-2010, 09:16 AM
What would you have us do Med? I didn't read the whole thread.

I love the DL, but Patrick peterson does seem like a legit option at the spot although I hate taking CBs so damn high.

I hate the Idea of drafting a Shutdown CB in the top 5, unless you already have a solid or developing DL or front 7 in a 3-4 to complement him. Guess what DEN does not have either of those necessary things, so I see the Shutdown CB as luxury pick and trying to fix the DL again with second tier talent. That strategy has not worked in 6 years for DEN.

So, in a nutshell, I hate the idea. However, if they did take him, and moved back up to get one of the elite DL at the same time, I would be alright with that.

oubronco
12-31-2010, 09:20 AM
Anyone who does not want a nasty Lineman on either side of the ball does not know football at all. The trenches are the only place the guys hit each other on every single Play. It takes a special kind of attitude to get hit every play and want to do it more than the guy trying to stop you.

This just makes me like him more, not less. He plays like a bat out of hell and I love that in a DL.

And that is exactly what we've needed for a long time, some mean muthafugga's in the trenches

oubronco
12-31-2010, 09:23 AM
I hate the Idea of drafting a Shutdown CB in the top 5, unless you already have a solid or developing DL or front 7 in a 3-4 to complement him. Guess what DEN does not have either of those necessary things, so I see the Shutdown CB as luxury pick and trying to fix the DL again with second tier talent. That strategy has not worked in 6 years for DEN.

So, in a nutshell, I hate the idea. However, if they did take him, and moved back up to get one of the elite DL at the same time, I would be alright with that.

Now that would be awesome unless they had to give up too much to move back up

Drek
12-31-2010, 09:52 AM
So, in a nutshell, I hate the idea. However, if they did take him, and moved back up to get one of the elite DL at the same time, I would be alright with that.

While I wouldn't be horribly opposed to getting more front line talent I'm a big believer that we need to be moving in the opposite direction. Trade down, get picks, add more depth.

When we kick the **** out of the chargers tomorrow it'll put us in solid DL position. But if a guy we like, say Dareus, looks to be sliding into the back half of the top 10 I'd love nothing more than sliding down a few spots and adding an extra 2nd or 3rd.

mattob14
12-31-2010, 09:54 AM
So, in a nutshell, I hate the idea. However, if they did take him, and moved back up to get one of the elite DL at the same time, I would be alright with that.

I really like the idea of Peterson at #2, then packaging the 2 2nds to move back up for JJ Watt. Use the 3rd on the best d-line available, or possibly someone like Strudivant, if he's available. Denver would have some solid foundational pieces to build around, although it doesn't really help to address the depth issues the team has.