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epicSocialism4tw
12-27-2010, 03:05 PM
Here's how Tebow's first two starts stack up against his peers, a couple of past Broncos, and some similar players from the modern era:

Tebow
24/45 53.3% for 446 yds 2 TD 1 INT 95.0 rating
18 rushes for 105 yds and 2TD's

Bradford
46/80 57.5% for 420 yds 3 TD 4 INT 69.9 rating
0 rushes

McCoy
32/49 65.3% for 355 yds 1 TD 2 INT 74.4 rating
9 rushes for 17 yds

Clausen
27/54 50% for 334 yds 1 TD 1 INT 72.1 rating

Elway
10/29 34.4% for 120 yds 0 TD 1 INT
0 rushes

Cutler
27/51 52.9% for 331 yds 4 TD 2 INT 80.0 rating
5 rushes for 10 yds

Favre (second year)
30/53 56.6% for 362 yds 2 TD 1 INT 69.4 rating
8 rushes for 43 yds

Cunningham
15/41 for 36.6% for 235 yds 0 TD 5 INT 12.25 rating
11 rushes for 94 yds

McNair
29/54 53.7% for 401 yds 2 TD 1 INT 82.4 rating
6 rushes for 23 yds

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

...this clearly shows that Tebow is NOT a "project". He's ahead of the curve.

Man-Goblin
12-27-2010, 03:08 PM
Well, judging by this, we should probably waive the whole having to be retired for 5 years thing and skip directly to his hall of fame induction.

Dagmar
12-27-2010, 03:12 PM
Still, those entirely dismissing Tebow’s 308 passing yard, two score performance in a 17-point comeback win are missing the point. He’s a rookie quarterback, and rookie quarterbacks are graded on a huge curve. (That’s why Sam Bradford (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NFL&id=5161), statistically among the worst QBs (http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/yardsPerPassAttempt) in football, earns deserved praise. Check out the records (http://blog.denverbroncos.com/jsaccomano/another-start-more-records/) Tebow broke Sunday.)
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/12/27/tim-tebow-gives-next-broncos-coach-something-to-think-about-it/#more-99919

Tim Tebow gives next Broncos coach something to think about it

TheReverend
12-27-2010, 03:27 PM
While I like how he's performed given the circumstances and the general theme of the thread, I think it's a touch misleading. I'd consider myself one Tebow's largest supporters, if not the largest, but he, like every rookie QB, IS still a project for at least the first couple years he transitions into the NFL.

I'm just ecstatic he gets game experience to work out his deficiencies and grow more confident.

epicSocialism4tw
12-27-2010, 03:37 PM
While I like how he's performed given the circumstances and the general theme of the thread, I think it's a touch misleading. I'd consider myself one Tebow's largest supporters, if not the largest, but he, like every rookie QB, IS still a project for at least the first couple years he transitions into the NFL.

I'm just ecstatic he gets game experience to work out his deficiencies and grow more confident.

The data shows that he's no more a project than any other rookie. Thats the point.

There seems to be this prevailing conversation that Tebow is some sort of QB-retard who needs extra coaching and butt-patting to raise to the level of "real" QB's.

In Tebow's first two starts, he has disproven the myth that he is somehow a lesser player than his peers.

That didnt take long.

SureShot
12-27-2010, 03:39 PM
W I'd consider myself one Tebow's largest supporters, if not the largest,

Bigger than you are.

TheReverend
12-27-2010, 03:49 PM
The data shows that he's no more a project than any other rookie. Thats the point.

There seems to be this prevailing conversation that Tebow is some sort of QB-retard who needs extra coaching and butt-patting to raise to the level of "real" QB's.

In Tebow's first two starts, he has disproven the myth that he is somehow a lesser player than his peers.

That didnt take long.

Fully agree with this, I was more talking about the misconception of "ready to play" vs "project players".

Bigger than you are.

Pfffft. If that were the case you wouldn't have disappeared for half his rookie year. :curtsey:

epicSocialism4tw
12-27-2010, 03:53 PM
You have seen this myth propagated all over this forum, and even moreso in the national conversation about the guy. It was propagated by the draftniks and many of the anti-Tebow folks that had built up resentment toward the guy for whatever reason (many people hate Florida, etc).

People even suggested that it would be prudent to dump Tebow for a 3rd or 4th round draft pick and tank the season to have a shot at drafting another QB. In retrospect that seems flat-out insane, but that conversation was driven by the idea that Tebow just quite isnt what other "real" QB's are.

It only took Tebow 2 games to blow that myth out of the water. The data speaks for itself. Tebow appears to be a more complete and accomplished player than just about every player on that list in his first two starts. The reason why this is noteable is because the expectations were that Tebow would be a lost puppy stumbling about the field like a drunken orangutan. Nobody expected that he would be efficient and effective both with his feet and through the air. Its shocking to some.

I imagine that its not shocking at all to the people who followed him at Florida in the SEC, where the guy put up similar numbers to the ones he has put up in the NFL so far. He got similar results too...inspiring his team to wins.

Tebow is re-writing the book on himself every week, and the pundits cant do anything about it.

Kaylore
12-27-2010, 03:54 PM
Tebow got to play one of the worst defenses in the NFL at home yesterday. That is a significant part of why he was more successful than those other QB's.

TheReverend
12-27-2010, 03:57 PM
Tebow got to play one of the worst defenses in the NFL at home yesterday. That is a significant part of why he was more successful than those other QB's.

Those numbers also include a game against a defense that's top half in yards and scoring and #3 against the pass on the road in one of the most hostile stadiums in professional sports.

Regardless, he gets the #1 defense in the NFL this week (#1 against the pass as well and #2 against the run)

epicSocialism4tw
12-27-2010, 03:58 PM
Tebow got to play one of the worst defenses in the NFL at home yesterday. That is a significant part of why he was more successful than those other QB's.

There are mitigating factors with all of them. Take for instance that Favre's first starts came in his second year.

You can speculate all you want, but hard data is hard data. Tebow's best rushing effort came against a heck of a defensive line at the black Hole in Oakland, so there are mitigating factors in his favor as well. Tebow is also playing for an interim coach and playing with a bunch of players who didnt give a crap whether they won or lost until Tebow took the bull by the horns yesterday. Thats another mitigating factor that I didnt include, but that supports my premise.

SureShot
12-27-2010, 03:59 PM
Pfffft. If that were the case you wouldn't have disappeared for half his rookie year. :curtsey:

I'm always around.8')

TheReverend
12-27-2010, 04:02 PM
I'm always around.8')

You're a regular Tommy Lee Jones.

snowspot66
12-27-2010, 04:03 PM
Still, those entirely dismissing Tebow’s 308 passing yard, two score performance in a 17-point comeback win are missing the point. He’s a rookie quarterback, and rookie quarterbacks are graded on a huge curve. (That’s why Sam Bradford (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NFL&id=5161), statistically among the worst QBs (http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/yardsPerPassAttempt) in football, earns deserved praise. Check out the records (http://blog.denverbroncos.com/jsaccomano/another-start-more-records/) Tebow broke Sunday.)
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/12/27/tim-tebow-gives-next-broncos-coach-something-to-think-about-it/#more-99919

Tim Tebow gives next Broncos coach something to think about it

From that article:

Tebow’s third down passer rating of 139.1 (6-of-9 for 96 yards and one TD, with no interceptions) vs. Houston was the highest third-down passer rating by a rookie quarterback this year in the entire NFL (minimum nine attempts).

epicSocialism4tw
12-27-2010, 04:07 PM
From that article:

Thats what struck me most about Tebow yesterday. Dude was clutch on third down. He was the same way at Florida in the big games.

The first time I started thinking that they guy was going to be not only good, but special, was the 3rd and 24 conversion for a 40-yard TD. Its those kinds of plays with momentum on the line that kills the spirit of the opponent.

Tebow seems to have a knack for "taking it" (as Dawkins likes to say).

Inkana7
12-27-2010, 04:14 PM
Tebow got to play one of the worst defenses in the NFL at home yesterday. That is a significant part of why he was more successful than those other QB's.

It's not like he was playing against complete retards though. That defense has had its moments. Flacco looked like a chump in the 2nd half of that Monday Night game.

Tombstone RJ
12-27-2010, 04:36 PM
love the third down rating...

Cito Pelon
12-27-2010, 04:42 PM
Tebow is one badass dude. This guy is gonna win a lot of games in the NFL. And he's not even polished yet, just pure, innate, natural talent.

Garcia Bronco
12-27-2010, 04:47 PM
i didn't think Bradford would do that well in the NFL, and clearly I sold him short. That Tim has done better while not being as NFL ready is a testiment to his ability as football player.

Garcia Bronco
12-27-2010, 04:48 PM
Tebow got to play one of the worst defenses in the NFL at home yesterday. That is a significant part of why he was more successful than those other QB's.

I hear you and I agree, but its still an NFL defense.

snowspot66
12-27-2010, 05:32 PM
I hear you and I agree, but its still an NFL defense.

Even ours has caused problems for good teams over the past few years and we've sucked major ass on defense.

strafen
12-27-2010, 05:58 PM
Tebow got to play one of the worst defenses in the NFL at home yesterday. That is a significant part of why he was more successful than those other QB's.

That's what they've been talking on the radio for most of the day.
What's your own perspective?
Are you just agreeing with it, or can you see through all of that given it was his 2nd game ever?

I hear rumors already Luck is not or may not be coming out this year due to the possible lock-out.

I think Tebow's got nothing but a lot of room in front for improvement.

If that's the case, no hold bars on defense...

zdoor
12-27-2010, 06:17 PM
Count me as sporting a full on Tebowner... At least, being Italian, I can walk around proud....

Vegas_Bronco
12-27-2010, 06:24 PM
Count me as sporting a full on Tebowner... At least, being Italian, I can walk around proud....

Maybe you should write a scripture on that for further inspiration.

extralife
12-27-2010, 07:04 PM
Now that we're starting to come down a little bit: he needs a lot of work. He was beyond bad in the red zone. People that followed the dude in college: can Tebow throw a fade? Does he have the touch to drop the ball into the end zone from ffiteen yards out? Those are the things he struggled the most with, and those are things he is going to have to get better at quickly. The release point, the accuracy on the deep balls, and all that other stuff can come with time, but he'll need to get that red zone touch down sooner rather than later.

I'll jump on board with those stats, though. Pretty hard to ignore, given his project status.

Cmac821
12-27-2010, 07:20 PM
People that followed the dude in college: can Tebow throw a fade? Does he have the touch to drop the ball into the end zone from ffiteen yards out? Those are the things he struggled the most with, and those are things he is going to have to get better at quickly. The release point, the accuracy on the deep balls, and all that other stuff can come with time, but he'll need to get that red zone touch down sooner rather than later.

I'll jump on board with those stats, though. Pretty hard to ignore, given his project status.

Did not watch him in college, didn't know he struggled in the red zone. The fade can wait till Demaryous gets back but the 15 yard lob would be nice.

TailgateNut
12-27-2010, 07:22 PM
Here's how Tebow's first two starts stack up against his peers, a couple of past Broncos, and some similar players from the modern era:

Tebow
24/45 53.3% for 446 yds 2 TD 1 INT 95.0 rating
18 rushes for 105 yds and 2TD's

Bradford
46/80 57.5% for 420 yds 3 TD 4 INT 69.9 rating
0 rushes

McCoy
32/49 65.3% for 355 yds 1 TD 2 INT 74.4 rating
9 rushes for 17 yds

Clausen
27/54 50% for 334 yds 1 TD 1 INT 72.1 rating

Elway
10/29 34.4% for 120 yds 0 TD 1 INT
0 rushes

Cutler
27/51 52.9% for 331 yds 4 TD 2 INT 80.0 rating
5 rushes for 10 yds

Favre (second year)
30/53 56.6% for 362 yds 2 TD 1 INT 69.4 rating
8 rushes for 43 yds

Cunningham
15/41 for 36.6% for 235 yds 0 TD 5 INT 12.25 rating
11 rushes for 94 yds

McNair
29/54 53.7% for 401 yds 2 TD 1 INT 82.4 rating
6 rushes for 23 yds

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

...this clearly shows that Tebow is NOT a "project". He's ahead of the curve.


Since you're pushing stats and numbers, what were the "numbers/rating" of the opponents? Were they all world conquerers like the Texans?

listopencil
12-27-2010, 07:43 PM
There are mitigating factors with all of them. Take for instance that Favre's first starts came in his second year.

You can speculate all you want, but hard data is hard data. Tebow's best rushing effort came against a heck of a defensive line at the black Hole in Oakland, so there are mitigating factors in his favor as well. Tebow is also playing for an interim coach and playing with a bunch of players who didnt give a crap whether they won or lost until Tebow took the bull by the horns yesterday. Thats another mitigating factor that I didnt include, but that supports my premise.



Yeah, I have to agree with this. Good point.

Jay3
12-27-2010, 07:49 PM
Now that we're starting to come down a little bit: he needs a lot of work. He was beyond bad in the red zone. People that followed the dude in college: can Tebow throw a fade?

Not real well -- he's had very little reps on it, and fade is a touch ball that requires practice and muscle memory.

The thinking was that Tebow has such a nose for the endzone, every time they got close they just sicked Tebow on them.

He crossed the goal line more than any man in SEC history, more than Herschel, more than Bo Jackson, more than Shaun Alexander, more than Darren McFadden.

So "throw the fade" was not chanted in the stands much when he was in college.

He'll get it -- fade is not a hard throw. Hard throw is hitting a teacup from 25 yards, with a split second to see and release it.

footstepsfrom#27
12-27-2010, 08:50 PM
Tebow got to play one of the worst defenses in the NFL at home yesterday. That is a significant part of why he was more successful than those other QB's.
Which of couse isf offset by the fact that he's playing without a real head coach, behind an offensive line that's been injured and/or brand new this year and with a gameplan suitable for recess at the local elementary school most of his snaps.

People can downgrade, question, scoff, ignore, rationalize and cherry pick all the stats, facts, situations, and circumstances they want to, but here's the bottom line on this guy; some of us knew well before he was drafted that he was the real deal and some have come to know that as we move along, but there's a sizeable group in here who refuses to see the obvious...this guy can play at the highest levels. Lost in the facts you mention...the quality of the other team's defense...is the fact that this guy lifted an entire team yesterday. Nobody's done what he did since Elway was here, and that has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of the opposition.

footstepsfrom#27
12-27-2010, 08:55 PM
Since you're pushing stats and numbers, what were the "numbers/rating" of the opponents? Were they all world conquerers like the Texans?
Did you attend the game or dump you tickets like you said you would?

epicSocialism4tw
12-27-2010, 10:01 PM
More players in their first two starts:

Vick
14/27 51.9% 242 yds 0 TD 0 INT 76.9 rating
7 rushes for 68 yds

McNabb
27/57 47.4% 225 yds 1 TD 2 INT 48.8 rating
12 rushes for 70 yds

Manning
42/70 60.0% 490 yds 2 TD 6 INT 54.9 rating

Brady (second year)
25/47 53.2% 254 yds 0 TD 0 INT 69.2 rating
3 rushes for 11 yds

Roethlisberger
24/42 57.1% 337 yds 2 TD 1 INT 87.9 rating
5 rushes for 4 yds

Flacco
28/48 58.3% 258 yds 0 TD 2 INT 55.8 rating
10 rushes for 35 yds 1 TD

Matt Ryan
22/46 47.8% 319 yds 1 TD 2 INT 83.3 rating
11 rushes for 8 yds

Mark Sanchez
32/53 60.4% 435 yds 2 TD 1 INT 92.7 rating
7 rushes for 4 yds

epicSocialism4tw
12-27-2010, 10:30 PM
Players from the two lists ranked by QB rating:

1 Tebow 95.0
2 Sanchez 92.7
3 Benburger 87.9
4 Ryan 83.3
5 McNair 82.4
6 Cutler 80.0
7 Vick 76.9
8 McCoy 74.4
9 Clausen 72.1
10 Bradford 69.9
11 Favre 69.4
12 Brady 69.2
13 Flacco 55.8
14 Manning 54.9
15 McNabb 48.8
16 Cunningham 12.3

epicSocialism4tw
12-27-2010, 10:33 PM
Players from the two lists ranked in terms of passing yards:

1 Manning 490
2 Tebow 446
3 Sanchez 435
4 Bradford 420
5 McNair 401
6 Favre 362
7 McCoy 335
8 Roethlisburger 337
9 Clausen 334
10 Cutler 331
11 Ryan 319
12 Flacco 258
13 Brady 254
14 Vick 242
15 Cunningham 235
16 McNabb 225

footstepsfrom#27
12-27-2010, 10:36 PM
Players from the two lists ranked by QB rating:

1 Tebow 95.0
2 Sanchez 92.7
3 Benburger 87.9
4 Ryan 83.3
5 McNair 82.4
6 Cutler 80.0
7 Vick 76.9
8 McCoy 74.4
9 Clausen 72.1
10 Bradford 69.9
11 Favre 69.4
12 Brady 69.2
13 Flacco 55.8
14 Manning 54.9
15 McNabb 48.8
16 Cunningham 12.3
Yeah but all those guys faced Superbowl dynasty teams in their first two games. In fact they played the Superbowl winner back to back.

Where is Elway? ???

epicSocialism4tw
12-27-2010, 10:37 PM
Players from the two lists ranked in terms of rushing yards/rushing TD's:

1 Tebow 105/2
2 Cunningham 94/0
3 McNabb 70/0
4 Vick 68/0
5 Favre 43/0
6 Flacco 35/1
7 McNair 23/0
8 McCoy 17/0
9 Brady 11/0
10 Cutler 10/0
11 Ryan 8/0
12 Benburger 4/0
13 Sanchez 4/0
14 Bradford 0/0
14 Clausen 0/0
14 Manning 0/0

epicSocialism4tw
12-27-2010, 10:38 PM
Yeah but all those guys faced Superbowl dynasty teams in their first two games. In fact they played the Superbowl winner back to back.

Where is Elway? ???

I couldnt find his rating for the first two games, but it was pretty dang crappy so it really wasnt worth mentioning. It would have probably been second or third to last.

epicSocialism4tw
12-27-2010, 10:42 PM
Players from the two lists ranked in terms of completion %:

1 McCoy 65.3
2 Sanchez 60.4
3 Manning 60.0
4 Flacco 58.3
5 Bradford 57.5
6 Benburger 57.1
7 Favre 56.6
8 McNair 53.7
9 Tebow 53.3
10 Brady 53.2
11 Cutler 52.9
12 Vick 51.9
13 Clausen 50.0
14 Ryan 47.8
15 McNabb 47.4
16 Cunningham 36.6

epicSocialism4tw
12-27-2010, 10:45 PM
I post all of these statistical rankings to further hammer home the point that Tebow is in no way, at all, and never was a "project" QB who struggled with the NFL in his first two games.

Tebow stands out as one of the top couple of guys, if not the most successful guy out of the whole bunch in his first two games.

Tebow is NOT A PROJECT. He's ready NOW.

epicSocialism4tw
12-27-2010, 10:55 PM
Its likely that had Tebow started this season, that by now he would potentially be considered a candidate for offensive rookie of the year.

Cito Pelon
12-27-2010, 11:07 PM
Now that we're starting to come down a little bit: he needs a lot of work. He was beyond bad in the red zone. People that followed the dude in college: can Tebow throw a fade? Does he have the touch to drop the ball into the end zone from ffiteen yards out? Those are the things he struggled the most with, and those are things he is going to have to get better at quickly. The release point, the accuracy on the deep balls, and all that other stuff can come with time, but he'll need to get that red zone touch down sooner rather than later.

I'll jump on board with those stats, though. Pretty hard to ignore, given his project status.

Whatever Steve Young could do, Tebow can duplicate it.

McDman
12-27-2010, 11:08 PM
Guys, it's two games! Good Lord.

Cito Pelon
12-27-2010, 11:10 PM
Since you're pushing stats and numbers, what were the "numbers/rating" of the opponents? Were they all world conquerers like the Texans?

Man, you're like the self-appointed Ebenezer.

Cito Pelon
12-27-2010, 11:12 PM
Not real well -- he's had very little reps on it, and fade is a touch ball that requires practice and muscle memory.

The thinking was that Tebow has such a nose for the endzone, every time they got close they just sicked Tebow on them.

He crossed the goal line more than any man in SEC history, more than Herschel, more than Bo Jackson, more than Shaun Alexander, more than Darren McFadden.

So "throw the fade" was not chanted in the stands much when he was in college.

He'll get it -- fade is not a hard throw. Hard throw is hitting a teacup from 25 yards, with a split second to see and release it.

Good point.

BroncoDoug
12-27-2010, 11:15 PM
Is anyone worried that without the McDaniels' brothers Tebow's throwing motion will regress? He looks so much smoother and fluid from their teachings then from a year ago at Florida. I'm a little worried that the next coach wont focus on that part of his game as much...

Cito Pelon
12-27-2010, 11:30 PM
Is anyone worried that without the McDaniels' brothers Tebow's throwing motion will regress? He looks so much smoother and fluid from their teachings then from a year ago at Florida. I'm a little worried that the next coach wont focus on that part of his game as much...

It won't hurt to try to tighten up the motion.

TailgateNut
12-28-2010, 12:19 AM
Did you attend the game or dump you tickets like you said you would?


What does that have to do with the defensive prowess of the Texans?

TailgateNut
12-28-2010, 12:21 AM
Its likely that had Tebow started this season, that by now he would potentially be considered a candidate for offensive rookie of the year.

Hilarious!LOL

TailgateNut
12-28-2010, 12:21 AM
Whatever Steve Young could do, Tebow can duplicate it.

LOLHilarious!

footstepsfrom#27
12-28-2010, 12:39 AM
What does that have to do with the defensive prowess of the Texans?
About as much as what the Texans defense has to do with what we saw from Tebow on Sunday...nothing. If you think what you witnessed was tainted because of who they played, you're not going to get it anytime soon.

extralife
12-28-2010, 02:51 AM
Whatever Steve Young could do, Tebow can duplicate it.

Steve Young had a quick release and is among the most accurate passers in history (statistically he is number 1). Coming out of school he was just below that Elway/Manning level of talent. Lets not get ahead of ourselves.

ZONA
12-28-2010, 03:25 AM
I have no doubts that Tebow will improve on a number of things going into next year. He will obviously continue to work on his throwing mechanics and reading defenses. But it's nice to once again see a QB, when the play is well defended, make something out of nothing. You hear that term all the time in the NFL "make a play". It's great to have a guy who can hit open targets, but it's nice to see a guy who can do something other then throw it away or take a sack when no targets are open. There are going to be times when you do need to throw it away but doing it too much can really put a choke hold on your offense. That was one thing I noticed in the last game. Tebow seemed to have a nice balance between throwing it away and running for some yards when he could.

Cito Pelon
12-28-2010, 03:58 AM
Steve Young had a quick release and is among the most accurate passers in history (statistically he is number 1). Coming out of school he was just below that Elway/Manning level of talent. Lets not get ahead of ourselves.

Steve Young also played in the UFL and rode the bench in SF.

Cito Pelon
12-28-2010, 04:15 AM
And Steve Young played for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers with dismal results. Then rode the bench behind Montana in SF.

TailgateNut
12-28-2010, 06:13 AM
About as much as what the Texans defense has to do with what we saw from Tebow on Sunday...nothing. If you think what you witnessed was tainted because of who they played, you're not going to get it anytime soon.


Yep, in your opinion, playing against the Texans (last in passing D and 29th overall D rating) is the same as facing the likes of Schlittsburgh, NYJets, Chuggers, or the Saints.


...and you have the audacity to say I don't get it.

zdoor
12-28-2010, 08:04 AM
How about we just get to be excited and have some hope for a change? Yeah, he may not pan out to be the next franchise QB for the Broncos. But, at this point, we haven't had hope for a while and nothing Tebow has done has suggested he can't be. In fact, it's quite the opposite.

He is fun to watch, a great guy to root for, and dedicated and driven like few others in the league. Let's just have some fun with what we're seeing. I don't think anyone is really saying he's a sure fire franchise QB at this point. We're just excited that he could be and it's been a tough year with little else to be excited about. I don't see the need to tear the guy down when he's done nothing at all to warrant it but leave everything he's got on the field. If nothing else, respect the way the guy plays and root for him. What's the harm?

bendog
12-28-2010, 10:48 AM
If he plays us out of the second pick and Peterson, I hope Satan takes his soul.

epicSocialism4tw
12-28-2010, 10:50 AM
If he plays us out of the second pick and Peterson, I hope Satan takes his soul.

I just figured out the point where humor becomes unfunny.

White Horses Inc.
12-28-2010, 11:33 AM
Let's just hope that San Diego comes out to whip our A$$.. I hope they bring it and then we will all see what Tebow can do.

Rashomon
12-28-2010, 12:38 PM
Here's how Tebow's first two starts stack up against his peers, a couple of past Broncos, and some similar players from the modern era:

Tebow
24/45 53.3% for 446 yds 2 TD 1 INT 95.0 rating
18 rushes for 105 yds and 2TD's

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

...this clearly shows that Tebow is NOT a "project". He's ahead of the curve.

Two games is too small of a sample size to judge anything on. Here are some other recent QB stats for their first two starts in their rookie season.

Troy Smith
32/60 53.3% for 370 yds, 2 TD 0 INT.

Matt Leinart
46/77 59.7% for 485 yds, 4 TD 1 INT.

Charlie Frye
29/44 65.9% for 364 yds, 3 TD 1 INT.

Bruce Gradkowski
45/75 60.0% for 409 yds, 4 TD 1 INT.

I am sure their team had fans that thought their QB troubles had been solved. A QB's success in his first two starts is no guarantee of future success.

bendog
12-28-2010, 12:40 PM
I just figured out the point where humor becomes unfunny.

1. why should i care wtf you think, and 2. I wasn't joking

Jesterhole
12-28-2010, 12:56 PM
Now that we're starting to come down a little bit: he needs a lot of work. He was beyond bad in the red zone. People that followed the dude in college: can Tebow throw a fade? Does he have the touch to drop the ball into the end zone from ffiteen yards out? Those are the things he struggled the most with, and those are things he is going to have to get better at quickly. The release point, the accuracy on the deep balls, and all that other stuff can come with time, but he'll need to get that red zone touch down sooner rather than later.

I'll jump on board with those stats, though. Pretty hard to ignore, given his project status.

Pretty sure Tebow dominated the red zone in college like no other player in history. Set the SEC all time rushing touchdown record as a QB, and most of those weren't 20+ yard runs.

He has show good accuracy on all his throws: long, short, on the run, from the pocket. He looks odd as hell delivering it, but Tim Couch had near perfect mechanics, and that worked out well for him...

bendog
12-28-2010, 12:58 PM
Couch was a noodle arm though, and even the nay sayers said Tebow has a cannon.

Elway passes the endorsement mantle

Rebound Prosthetics “We’ll make you run like Tim Tebow”

Denver Limousine Service, “We may not be able to get Tim Tebow to drive you home, but we’ll get you home safely and comfortably and almost as fast.”

Colorado Lottery “Tim Tebow says it’s no sin”

East Side Kosher Deli “Even Tebow gives it up for our brisket”

Th’ink Tank “Your place for henta bible verses”

Swis Automotive spokesman “We don’t fix your car, we heal it.”

Tebow costume at Bare Assets

DenverBirthdayParty “Not every dad can be Tim Tebow, but every dad can give their child a birthday party to remember forever.”

Ted Haggard’s “Tebow Temple”

La Boheme, “If Tim comes here, he’s really gonna cum”

Jesterhole
12-28-2010, 12:59 PM
Yeah but all those guys faced Superbowl dynasty teams in their first two games. In fact they played the Superbowl winner back to back.

Where is Elway? ???

rofl

Rohirrim
12-28-2010, 01:05 PM
Guys, it's two games! Good Lord.

In our instant gratification society, that's all we need. :wiggle:

bronco_diesel
12-28-2010, 01:41 PM
More players in their first two starts:

Brady (second year)
25/47 53.2% 254 yds 0 TD 0 INT 69.2 rating
3 rushes for 11 yds




This is one that needs to be sent over to Cecil Lammey and Darius Walker. They were talking (at least it was Walker) that TT isn't showing them yet because his completion percentage is about 50%. They went on to bring up Brady and Manning.

I though the argument was abusrd in context. Brady and Manning are established HOF QB's who have won SB's. Tebow is in in freakin' 2nd game.

TonyR
12-28-2010, 01:43 PM
Two games is too small of a sample size to judge anything on.

Yup. Intersting to see those stats but largely meaningless.

Cool Breeze
12-28-2010, 01:47 PM
Cunningham
15/41 for 36.6% for 235 yds 0 TD 5 INT 12.25 rating
11 rushes for 94 yds

Wow - Randall was quite the stinker - imagine the chaos had Tebow done similar...

epicSocialism4tw
12-28-2010, 01:47 PM
Two games is too small of a sample size to judge anything on. Here are some other recent QB stats for their first two starts in their rookie season.

Troy Smith
32/60 53.3% for 370 yds, 2 TD 0 INT.

Matt Leinart
46/77 59.7% for 485 yds, 4 TD 1 INT.

Charlie Frye
29/44 65.9% for 364 yds, 3 TD 1 INT.

Bruce Gradkowski
45/75 60.0% for 409 yds, 4 TD 1 INT.

I am sure their team had fans that thought their QB troubles had been solved. A QB's success in his first two starts is no guarantee of future success.

Its certainly not a reason to extrapolate an entire career out for the guy, but it is enough information to discern that he's not the headless chicken project that some people tried very hard to make him out to be.

He seems to have had less problem adjusting to the NFL than many other noteable and comparable QB's. That was the point I tried to establish with the statistics.

Now...what he does from here forward is obviously up in the air.

Cool Breeze
12-28-2010, 01:50 PM
How about we just get to be excited and have some hope for a change? Yeah, he may not pan out to be the next franchise QB for the Broncos. But, at this point, we haven't had hope for a while and nothing Tebow has done has suggested he can't be. In fact, it's quite the opposite.

He is fun to watch, a great guy to root for, and dedicated and driven like few others in the league. Let's just have some fun with what we're seeing. I don't think anyone is really saying he's a sure fire franchise QB at this point. We're just excited that he could be and it's been a tough year with little else to be excited about. I don't see the need to tear the guy down when he's done nothing at all to warrant it but leave everything he's got on the field. If nothing else, respect the way the guy plays and root for him. What's the harm?

I agree with your whole statement!
Though for many this is clearly not allowed...

Rohirrim
12-28-2010, 01:52 PM
I'll have to see him against a much better D, like the Packers or Jets; A team that can play man and put an extra safety in the box, forcing Tim to play a different style of game and try to make throws he isn't used to making. Did you see the Falcons and that defense last night? They would take apart that screen game.

epicSocialism4tw
12-28-2010, 01:52 PM
This is one that needs to be sent over to Cecil Lammey and Darius Walker. They were talking (at least it was Walker) that TT isn't showing them yet because his completion percentage is about 50%. They went on to bring up Brady and Manning.

I though the argument was abusrd in context. Brady and Manning are established HOF QB's who have won SB's. Tebow is in in freakin' 2nd game.

Its really funny how the window has shifted in the conversation about Tebow. It has gone from "This guy cant play in the NFL" to "This guy isnt one of the greats."

That in itself just shows you how big of a victory that Tebow has had in the minds of even the haters. They have had to completely relent the point that Tebow is not NFL-calibur...they've abandoned that argument and moved on to the next criticism.

Tebow has already proved them wrong to a large degree.

snowspot66
12-28-2010, 02:16 PM
This is one that needs to be sent over to Cecil Lammey and Darius Walker. They were talking (at least it was Walker) that TT isn't showing them yet because his completion percentage is about 50%. They went on to bring up Brady and Manning.

I though the argument was abusrd in context. Brady and Manning are established HOF QB's who have won SB's. Tebow is in in freakin' 2nd game.

Rookie QB's almost always hover in the 50's on completion percentage. Do they not know that?

gyldenlove
12-28-2010, 02:18 PM
Its really funny how the window has shifted in the conversation about Tebow. It has gone from "This guy cant play in the NFL" to "This guy isnt one of the greats."

That in itself just shows you how big of a victory that Tebow has had in the minds of even the haters. They have had to completely relent the point that Tebow is not NFL-calibur...they've abandoned that argument and moved on to the next criticism.

Tebow has already proved them wrong to a large degree.

I would say 2 things Tebow has done so far, in very limited playing time still is to show that A: he can make passes and his motion is much improved and B: he can ****ing run.

When reading scouting reports on Tebow, the same 3 things came up over and over as detractors: the throwing motion, not being fast enough to run consistently and lack of accuracy. We have certainly seen that he can run, if he uses his legs between 5 and 10 times per game to make stuff happen he can be deadly because of his size and speed, it means the defensive line and outside linebackers have to keep the contain which takes them off pass rushing. As for passing, it is still too early to tell if he is accurate enough, but certainly his motion is more compact and faster even under pressure and he has the power even with his new motion to chug it down field.

bronco_diesel
12-28-2010, 02:27 PM
Rookie QB's almost always hover in the 50's on completion percentage. Do they not know that?

That was what I was scratching my head over. They were not just comparing him to Brady and Manning's rookie seasons or their 1st and 2nd starts respectively. They were comparing him to what they are now.

I thought that was fairly stupid for football guys.

Jetmeck
12-28-2010, 02:28 PM
HOPE is a good thing.....................

tsr28
12-28-2010, 02:36 PM
Couch was a noodle arm though, and even the nay sayers said Tebow has a cannon.

Elway passes the endorsement mantle

Rebound Prosthetics “We’ll make you run like Tim Tebow”

Denver Limousine Service, “We may not be able to get Tim Tebow to drive you home, but we’ll get you home safely and comfortably and almost as fast.”

Colorado Lottery “Tim Tebow says it’s no sin”

East Side Kosher Deli “Even Tebow gives it up for our brisket”

Th’ink Tank “Your place for henta bible verses”

Swis Automotive spokesman “We don’t fix your car, we heal it.”

Tebow costume at Bare Assets

DenverBirthdayParty “Not every dad can be Tim Tebow, but every dad can give their child a birthday party to remember forever.”

Ted Haggard’s “Tebow Temple”

La Boheme, “If Tim comes here, he’s really gonna cum”

Most Interesting Man in the World, "I don't always drink the kool aid, but when I do, I prefer El Tebowner"

snowspot66
12-28-2010, 02:40 PM
That was what I was scratching my head over. They were not just comparing him to Brady and Manning's rookie seasons or their 1st and 2nd starts respectively. They were comparing him to what they are now.

I thought that was fairly stupid for football guys.

To add that it's such a small sample size that just three more completions and he's sitting at 60% and I think he's had three balls dropped.

FISH
12-28-2010, 02:51 PM
To add that it's such a small sample size that just three more completions and he's sitting at 60% and I think he's had three balls dropped.

Too include a beautiful would be TD pass to Lance Ball which may have been a difference maker in Oakland

bendog
12-28-2010, 02:52 PM
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/historical/1114680

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/19/AR2010041903020.html

Not that I really have a dog in the fight between those who thought he'd be great all along to those who thought he'd flop, but rap wasn't really accuracy. He threw a nice ball 40-50 yards. But Fla's scheme didn't really require great accuracy/touch in the mid-range game, which is where Brady lives. And there was just a lot of short passes where the reciever didn't move much or at all, and Tebow just hit him in the numbers with a line drive. His first start the color guy was saying he was "getting some air under" his passes. Sunday he made some reads that he never had to make at Fla and that Alex Smith still seems having trouble with.

Greatspirits
12-28-2010, 03:11 PM
But, but those others didn't get to play against Houston's horrible pass defense!

lostknight
12-28-2010, 04:20 PM
But, but those others didn't get to play against Houston's horrible pass defense!

But, and it is a big but, Tebow still did more damage the their average opponent this season.

strafen
12-28-2010, 11:19 PM
I have no doubts that Tebow will improve on a number of things going into next year. He will obviously continue to work on his throwing mechanics and reading defenses. But it's nice to once again see a QB, when the play is well defended, make something out of nothing. You hear that term all the time in the NFL "make a play". It's great to have a guy who can hit open targets, but it's nice to see a guy who can do something other then throw it away or take a sack when no targets are open. There are going to be times when you do need to throw it away but doing it too much can really put a choke hold on your offense. That was one thing I noticed in the last game. Tebow seemed to have a nice balance between throwing it away and running for some yards when he could.Yup. That's the difference maker in any given game...

epicSocialism4tw
01-04-2011, 03:34 PM
bump 4tw

epicSocialism4tw
08-28-2011, 02:19 PM
bump...brought this up in another thread.

Boobs McGee
08-28-2011, 03:33 PM
You really love hearing the sound of your own voice drama. Narcicism ftw!

epicSocialism4tw
08-28-2011, 04:44 PM
You really love hearing the sound of your own voice drama. Narcicism ftw!

You must not like statistics.

Here's a statistic for you: Dirk 8, Gasol 0.

Boobs McGee
08-28-2011, 05:28 PM
Statistics game, eh?

Here's one that's pretty awesome.

Female Genitalia 1, dramallama 0.

Now go spout some more bigotry infused apologies about how your poor Christian homeboy can't beat out a noodle armed clown.

Agamemnon
08-28-2011, 06:25 PM
Statistics game, eh?

Here's one that's pretty awesome.

Female Genitalia 1, dramallama 0.

Now go spout some more bigotry infused apologies about how your poor Christian homeboy can't beat out a noodle armed clown.

I lose to female genitalia on a regular basis. Is that a bad thing? Ha!

Boobs McGee
08-28-2011, 06:48 PM
I lose to female genitalia on a regular basis. Is that a bad thing? Ha!

The difference is, you've actually had the pleasure of EXPERIENCING female genitalia ;D Bob's got more game than that clown I was talking about

epicSocialism4tw
08-28-2011, 09:00 PM
The difference is, you've actually had the pleasure of EXPERIENCING female genitalia ;D Bob's got more game than that clown I was talking about

Boo hoo!

Get the sand out of your panties.

Broncos4tw
08-29-2011, 08:52 AM
The issue from what it sounds like, is his inability to see the field and go beyond his first read. And that's how it's seemed to me as well. If his first guy isn't open, he panics and runs. He looked a bit better last game, but it's going to take some time to break him of that habit.

bendog
08-29-2011, 09:01 AM
His ascension is near.

PRBronco
08-29-2011, 09:19 AM
The issue from what it sounds like, is his inability to see the field and go beyond his first read. And that's how it's seemed to me as well. If his first guy isn't open, he panics and runs. He looked a bit better last game, but it's going to take some time to break him of that habit.

I'd love to see how much better he can read the field when he's not being swarmed by defenders because the pocket never existed.

TailgateNut
08-29-2011, 09:38 AM
His ascension is near.


LOL