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View Full Version : So what's up with Moreno now??


mr007
12-26-2010, 03:34 PM
He seemed like he was running fine and doing well and all of a sudden he's out again???

Inkana7
12-26-2010, 03:38 PM
Who the **** cares we're actually in a game and Tebow looks good.

mr007
12-26-2010, 03:41 PM
Who the **** cares we're actually in a game and Tebow looks good.

Umm I do asshole I'm just curious.

Cmac821
12-26-2010, 03:46 PM
Umm I do a-hole I'm just curious.

I would also like to know, if it makes you feel better

Inkana7
12-26-2010, 03:49 PM
Actually I'm also curious but I'm enjoying this game too much. Buckhalter is actually playing well, too.

TheReverend
12-26-2010, 04:01 PM
He's feeling well enough to celebrate. Scrub.

extralife
12-26-2010, 04:06 PM
Dude sucks, time to get over it and move on.

Chris
12-26-2010, 04:06 PM
He got dinged on a run to the outside for a first down pretty early on. Two defenders closed on him... didn't look like a hit that would have bothered most other backs.

GoBroncos84
12-26-2010, 04:10 PM
His ribs are still hurt. He tried to play, took a few shots to that area, didn't play the 2nd half. Same injury.

Taco John
12-26-2010, 04:10 PM
He's feeling well enough to celebrate. Scrub.

LOL! Well you've changed your tune quick, brother. ;)

Garcia Bronco
12-26-2010, 04:10 PM
He should get one more year to prove himself.

Requiem
12-26-2010, 04:14 PM
He should get one more year to prove himself.

It will be interested to see how he will do in an offense that is more friendly to the run. His injuries the past two weeks have been disappointing, but he has still put up some good numbers when he has been healthy here. 21 starts and he has over 2,200 all purpose yards and 16 touchdowns. Not bad. Not even bad with total games played. He can do better, should do better. Hopeful.

GoBroncos84
12-26-2010, 04:22 PM
It will be interested to see how he will do in an offense that is more friendly to the run. His injuries the past two weeks have been disappointing, but he has still put up some good numbers when he has been healthy here. 21 starts and he has over 2,200 all purpose yards and 16 touchdowns. Not bad. Not even bad with total games played. He can do better, should do better. Hopeful.

I think Tebow, Moreno, and Thomas have the talent to be the next big "triplets" in the league. This depends greatly on coaching staff and surrounding cast, but the talent is there. I'm still very much on the Moreno fanboy train. One of my favorite collegiate players of all time, and when healthy he has shown flashes of brilliance. I am also hopeful

TheReverend
12-26-2010, 04:24 PM
LOL! Well you've changed your tune quick, brother. ;)

This was laughable tonight. Two games in a row... Tebow's first two games where we REALLY need a reliable safety valve and running game and guess who can't deliver either time!

That's definitely enough for me to switch from being excited about how potent a healthy Tebow and Moreno could be to this kid can't show up when he's needed and shouldn't be relied on.

He should get one more year to prove himself.

Of course he'll get another year. But we ABSOLUTELY need a contingency plan for our running game that's better than Lance Ball and No-Knees Buckhalter.

Boomhauer
12-26-2010, 04:28 PM
He should get one more year to prove himself.

Maybe add 30lbs and become a better power back and blocker since he's never had the speed to get to the outside.

Requiem
12-26-2010, 04:30 PM
Moreno is a great blocker, he doesn't need improvement there.

razorwire77
12-26-2010, 04:42 PM
This was laughable tonight. Two games in a row... Tebow's first two games where we REALLY need a reliable safety valve and running game and guess who can't deliver either time!

That's definitely enough for me to switch from being excited about how potent a healthy Tebow and Moreno could be to this kid can't show up when he's needed and shouldn't be relied on.



Of course he'll get another year. But we ABSOLUTELY need a contingency plan for our running game that's better than Lance Ball and No-Knees Buckhalter.
Yeah, Moreno should get another year to get healthy and or get better, but we need a contingency plan of either

a.) free agent back who can shoulder 7-10 carries a game, or more if Moreno is hurt.

b.) Draft a speed back with a later pick who has the explosiveness to get the outside. Which is something none of the backs on our roster can do consistently.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-26-2010, 04:43 PM
He's no Lance Ball, but the guy is trying.

Jesterhole
12-26-2010, 04:44 PM
Complete waste of a 12 pick...

GoBroncos84
12-26-2010, 04:46 PM
I think adding a complementary speed back would be beneficial. A Darren Sproles type. Darren Sproles and Leon Washington are both free agents at the end of the year, if I am not mistaken. Also look at players like Derrick Locke, Quizz Rodgers, and Noel Devine in the draft. Hopefully we could pick up some mid round selections to target one of those players

Pony Boy
12-26-2010, 04:46 PM
Moreno is a great blocker, he doesn't need improvement there.

Yep... block people from knocking over the gator-aid bucket while he's standing on the sideline.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-26-2010, 04:48 PM
He seemed like he was running fine and doing well and all of a sudden he's out again???

I detect a lack of trend detection.

razorwire77
12-26-2010, 04:55 PM
I think Moreno is eventually going to settle into a role of a Kevin Faulk type player. Not necessarily a bad thing, he's a guy that you can shift into the slot, and create matchup problems for LB's, or run a draw play for 3 yards on 3rd and 2. Every once and awhile he'll get in a groove and get you a 100 yard game, but I'm pretty confident that he's never going to be that stud RB that just takes over. Which sucks for us, because those are the expectations for RB taken in the top 15.

Hulamau
12-26-2010, 05:01 PM
His ribs are still hurt. He tried to play, took a few shots to that area, didn't play the 2nd half. Same injury.

Yep he landing hard right on the ball after one of those runs and after getting hit hard by two guys right on the ribs and didnt come back.

Pony Boy
12-26-2010, 05:05 PM
Yep he landing hard right on the ball after one of those runs and after getting hit hard by two guys right on the ribs and didnt come back.

I think that's called playing football in the NFL and it's why you get the big bucks......He needs a little Woody Hays style coaching

Bronco Yoda
12-26-2010, 05:05 PM
Moreno is a great blocker, he doesn't need improvement there.

Yeah, he was blocking that water table pretty good in the second half. There could have been team wide dehydration issues, if it would have been warm weather.

montrose
12-26-2010, 05:07 PM
Moreno's like Ryan Harris to me. Effective when 100%, ineffective when not, and rarely 100%.

Gort
12-26-2010, 05:20 PM
He's no Lance Ball, but the guy is trying.

Lance Ball is a great back. he'll easily break off 20 yards in McD's system.

all kidding aside, Ball is the right back for certain situations and i think he's done as well as can be expected given his limited role this year. he's got 137 yards on 35 carries this year. that's a respectable 3.9 YPC avg.

Gort
12-26-2010, 05:22 PM
I think adding a complementary speed back would be beneficial. A Darren Sproles type. Darren Sproles and Leon Washington are both free agents at the end of the year, if I am not mistaken. Also look at players like Derrick Locke, Quizz Rodgers, and Noel Devine in the draft. Hopefully we could pick up some mid round selections to target one of those players

just for fun, i drew a picture of Sproles for this post. i drew it at actual size. here it is:

. <--- D. Sproles

i think it looks like him. what do you think?

TonyR
12-26-2010, 05:31 PM
I share and understand the frustration with Moreno, and agree he's never going to be a top 10 NFL RB. But I also think it's possible he's just had bad luck on the injury front in the NFL. Looking at his last two years at Georgia he didn't appear to miss a single game and he had a lot of touches. So he doesn't necessarily have a history of being dinged up and missing time.


http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/gamelog?playerId=189614&year=2008

Dr. Broncenstein
12-26-2010, 05:32 PM
I share and understand the frustration with Moreno, and agree he's never going to be a top 10 NFL RB. But I also think it's possible he's just had bad luck on the injury front in the NFL. Looking at his last two years at Bama he didn't appear to miss a single game and he had a lot of touches. So he doesn't necessarily have a history of being dinged up and missing time.


http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/gamelog?playerId=189614&year=2008

Pretty sure he didn't play a single game for Alabama.

Likwid Kerruj
12-26-2010, 05:33 PM
I'm okay with him being on the team, but he's not worth his salary.

TonyR
12-26-2010, 05:35 PM
Pretty sure he didn't play a single game for Alabama.

You would be correct. But of course it doesn't change my point.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-26-2010, 05:39 PM
You would be correct. But of course it doesn't change my point.

What was your point, exactly? That no-go was a durable player for Alabama?

cabronco
12-26-2010, 05:41 PM
Yep... block people from knocking over the gator-aid bucket while he's standing on the sideline.


:spit:

TonyR
12-26-2010, 05:49 PM
What was your point, exactly? That no-go was a durable player for Alabama?

Every once in a while you should stop trying so desperately to be the funniest guy in the room and maybe add something to the conversation.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-26-2010, 05:50 PM
Every once in a while you should stop trying so desperately to be the funniest guy in the room and maybe add something to the conversation.

So repeating your own words = desperation comedy?

Gort
12-26-2010, 05:50 PM
Every once in a while you should stop trying so desperately to be the funniest guy in the room and maybe add something to the conversation.

with rare exceptions like today, humor has been the only thing that has gotten some of us through this season.

Requiem
12-26-2010, 05:54 PM
Every once in a while you should stop trying so desperately to be the funniest guy in the room and maybe add something to the conversation.

:afro: ^5

broncocalijohn
12-26-2010, 06:01 PM
He should get one more year to prove himself.

He will but i believe we are taking our third pick in the draft and going running back. If we wait until 3rd round (if we get a 3rd round pick via trade), that might be the spot to get one. We need an obvious back that can either start or at least be capable of coming into the game if Moreno has injury or sucking issues.

DarkHorse30
12-26-2010, 06:02 PM
Moreno needs to man up. He's being a girl.

TotallyScrewed
12-26-2010, 06:12 PM
What was your point, exactly? That no-go was a durable player for Alabama?

Or that he really contained himself when he played Alabama??

Attp Yds Avg Lg TD's
9 34 3.8 11 1


As an aside...

I thought your comment was pretty funny. I'm also a bit giddy right now.

broncosteven
12-26-2010, 07:40 PM
It will be interested to see how he will do in an offense that is more friendly to the run. His injuries the past two weeks have been disappointing, but he has still put up some good numbers when he plays KFC. 21 starts and he has over 2,200 all purpose yards and 16 touchdowns. Not bad. Not even bad with total games played. He can do better, should do better. Hopeful.

Fixed it for you.

2,200 all purpose yards is nothing, TD got that in 1 year and he was a 6th rounder.

KM was the 12th pick in the draft and still hasn't hit 1k in a single season. Only 2 100 yard games and both came from the same team which admitted to trying to take away the pass and ignoring the run.

I hope his 3rd season is the year he puts it together and shows he is worth being picked 12th overall. Hell at this point I would like to see him out run a DL on a 30 yard run.

broncosteven
12-26-2010, 07:42 PM
Moreno's like Ryan Harris to me. Effective when 100%, ineffective when not, and rarely 100%.

Well said.

Pony Boy
12-26-2010, 07:50 PM
:afro: ^5

What is Afro High-five?
Is that short for Doc has schooled me on many occasions and now it's your turn?

Spider
12-26-2010, 07:52 PM
Noshows problem ....he is No Hillis

Popps
12-26-2010, 08:48 PM
I love Moreno, but the dude just can't stay on the field. Hopefully an off-season of rest and conditioning will get him to a point where he can contribute regularly. He's clearly our best back and very effective when healthy.

Not ready to write him off, but I hope this is a situation he can rise above.

Drek
12-26-2010, 08:50 PM
Moreno needs to man up. He's being a girl.

Anyone who questions Moreno's toughness and commitment to this team honesty just doesn't have a ****ing clue.

Who was still out there trying to keep some level of dignity when everyone else had packed it up against Oakland?

Who's gone out and started both season openers despite missing all of pre-season with injuries?

For being "injury prone" he's suited up and played in all but 4 of the 31 games in his NFL career.

He's the hardest working, most committed person on this offense. He's also an outstanding athletic talent if we could ever provide the blocking to let him work instead of constantly asking him to beat two or three defenders at each level to get anything done.

He DEFINITELY needs a real tandem back though. I've said it before here, he's very similar to Tiki Barber. Much like Barber he's had early struggles with injuries. Much like Barber he's a well rounded back who doesn't work to his full effectiveness if you use him as a 25 carries up the gut type. And much like Barber if you pair him with a Brandon Jacobs type and then involve Moreno more in the passing game getting him 20-25 touches a game between rushing and receiving he'll be a game changing back for you, like he's done here when healthy and used in such a fashion.

Barber was considered a bust and viewed as just another guy for the first several years of his NFL career. All of a sudden he turned into one of the elite backs in the league when the right offense and right personnel were put around him.

So far Moreno has had a much better early start to his career than Barber. His play when healthy this year has taken a noticeable step up from last year. His YPC is up despite a very suspect OL and poor WR blocking down field. He's much more involved in the passing game. There is no reason to **** on the guy just because he's been snake bit with injuries early on.

I personally look forward to when we field a real OL and Moreno has a truly healthy season. At that point many of his current detractors will act as though they were on the Moreno bandwagon from day one.

Pony Boy
12-26-2010, 09:02 PM
Anyone who questions Moreno's toughness and commitment to this team honesty just doesn't have a ****ing clue.

Who was still out there trying to keep some level of dignity when everyone else had packed it up against Oakland?

So he kept his level of dignity on the sideline while his team was playing their guts out in the mud?

Inkana7
12-26-2010, 09:20 PM
So he kept his level of dignity on the sideline while his team was playing their guts out in the mud?

Pretty sure he was talking about the blowout loss to Oakland.

Pony Boy
12-26-2010, 09:25 PM
Pretty sure he was talking about the blowout loss to Oakland.

Yep I know, I was just wondering where his level of diginity was in the game at Okland. It looked like he packed it up early with a bruised vigina.

Baba Booey
12-26-2010, 09:28 PM
I'm praying for a healthy training camp for him next season. He's shown flashes of greatness this year, and I have a feeling he'll really be special if we get a little more help for the line and he's able to hit is stride in camp/preseason.

Inkana7
12-26-2010, 09:33 PM
Yep I know, I was just wondering where his level of diginity was in the game at Okland. It looked like he packed it up early with a bruised vigina.

Ok. I don't even know where to start with you.

Have you watched Moreno at all his career? He's not the kind of guy that would give up and not play without reason. He's often looked like the only guy who cares on offense.

And also, this is the NFL. The only reason a guy doesn't play is if he seriously can't play. What, players can only be allowed to not play in a game they start if they get taken off on a cart?

For crying out loud.

spdirty
12-26-2010, 09:34 PM
Can people quit using "bad injury luck" as an excuse for this guy? This is a no excuse league, and if you aren't on the field you aren't helping the team and you are worthless to the team. So **** Knowshon and his relentless steak of "bad luck injuries."

Inkana7
12-26-2010, 09:36 PM
Can people quit using "bad injury luck" as an excuse for this guy? This is a no excuse league, and if you aren't on the field you aren't helping the team and you are worthless to the team. So **** Knowshon and his relentless steak of "bad luck injuries."

It's this mentality that is leading to a lockout next year.

Garcia Bronco
12-26-2010, 09:36 PM
he's got injury concerns.
he's got poor vision.

Lance Ball looks better, but he can contribute when healthy. He's just not a feature back.

gtown
12-26-2010, 09:38 PM
Knowshon needs to learn how to get tackled a la Marshall Faulk. I love his effort, but he takes unnecessary big hits for the extra inch. Ball looked much better than Knowshon today, decisive with the ball hitting the hole hard and getting downhill.

spdirty
12-26-2010, 09:38 PM
Noshows problem ....he is No Hillis

or Orakpo.

Drek
12-26-2010, 09:42 PM
Can people quit using "bad injury luck" as an excuse for this guy? This is a no excuse league, and if you aren't on the field you aren't helping the team and you are worthless to the team. So **** Knowshon and his relentless steak of "bad luck injuries."

Its not bad luck, its poor conditioning. He opened the door himself when he wasn't in camp from day one as a rookie with his little mini-hold out, definitely agree with that. But then this season he got a pre-season injury that used to be the bane of NFL RBs until most conditioning coaches made hamstring development (strengthening and flexibility) a major target area for RBs. I say most because our conditioning staff clearly is still stuck in the 90's when they were actually considered a quality staff and, shockingly enough, hamstrings were a big issue for RBs. Seems a bit more than coincidental doesn't it? Kinda like the constant issues this team has with groin injuries. Or how despite being the only team in the NFL based at altitude we always, always get gassed late in games home or away.

Its a strength and conditioning staff that is not up to par with the best in the league anymore. I guess you could say that a few bad breaks have exacerbated the problems for Moreno, but in reality the first injuries he's had each season stem from poor preparation and conditioning, which only opens the door for a less than 100% Moreno to go out and pick up additional injuries or exacerbate the ones he already has.

Drek
12-26-2010, 09:45 PM
he's got injury concerns.
he's got poor vision.

Lance Ball looks better, but he can contribute when healthy. He's just not a feature back.

Lance Ball, the guy who only once has broken 10 carries in a game when he had 15 touches for 20 yards JUST LAST WEEK looks better than Knowshon Moreno?

Wow. The immediate negative bias filter all McDaniels draft picks are viewed through is abso-****ing-lutely INSANE around here.

Pony Boy
12-26-2010, 09:50 PM
It's this mentality that is leading to a lockout next year.

I get you're drunk and just typing gibberish on the keyboard.....

Lev Vyvanse
12-26-2010, 10:26 PM
Lance Ball, the guy who only once has broken 10 carries in a game when he had 15 touches for 20 yards JUST LAST WEEK looks better than Knowshon Moreno?

Wow. The immediate negative bias filter all McDaniels draft picks are viewed through is abso-****ing-lutely INSANE around here.

Tiki had a problem fumbling. Moreno has a problem seeing the second level. They are nothing alike.

Requiem
12-26-2010, 10:32 PM
Hard to see the second level when you can't get to it because your OL plays like dog piss week in and week out. <\]:0)

Drek
12-27-2010, 04:22 AM
Tiki had a problem fumbling. Moreno has a problem seeing the second level. They are nothing alike.

Tiki Barber had fewer yards in his first three seasons combined than Moreno did as a rookie.

And Moreno's problem "seeing" the second level is that when he gets to the second level he always sees two or three defenders closing because our WRs and TEs can't set up blocks down field.

There is a reason why the Broncos have a long tradition of preaching WR blocking. Why guys like Rod Smith and Ed McCaffery initially got their shots with this team. WR blocking is essential to opening up the second level for big plays.

TonyR
12-27-2010, 06:19 AM
For being "injury prone" he's suited up and played in all but 4 of the 31 games in his NFL career.

Thanks for injecting another voice of reason here, Drek. And as I said earlier in the thread he played in all 24 games plus two bowl games in his two years playing at Georgia. So his injury problems didn't start until he was in the NFL and hopefully they normalize after this season.

Mile High Shack
12-27-2010, 07:05 AM
Moreno wasn't worth the #12 pick, but it doesn't matter now, we have him and he is pretty good when healthy.

So with that caveat being said, we need to use our other backs more effectively to spell Knowshon more, he isn't a guy who can handle 20 + carries a game. Either that or get a FA RB in the offseason to get about 8-10 carries a game b/c it's pretty obvious at this point, Knowshon can't handle the rigors of being an every down back.

Drek
12-27-2010, 07:23 AM
Moreno wasn't worth the #12 pick, but it doesn't matter now, we have him and he is pretty good when healthy.

So with that caveat being said, we need to use our other backs more effectively to spell Knowshon more, he isn't a guy who can handle 20 + carries a game. Either that or get a FA RB in the offseason to get about 8-10 carries a game b/c it's pretty obvious at this point, Knowshon can't handle the rigors of being an every down back.

If we give him a power back to pair him with and suddenly he gives us 5 seasons like Tiki Barber did for the last few of his career would he be worth the #12 pick then?

I still personally think McDaniels is a quality X's and O's coach. But the one point I really hate about his offensive strategies is his poor management of Moreno. He was slow to use him in the passing game and he tried to use him as a 1990's ever down feature back with a change of pace scat back (Buckhalter) working with him. That doesn't hold up in today's NFL.

Get the OL healthy and gelled together, add some WRs who can actually block, get Moreno healthy and then see if he's worth the #12 overall pick. What we do know is that he isn't an outright bust like so many first rounders before have been. That he can definitely play on Sundays and when given the right opportunities has even shown the ability to be a game changer. Instead of writing him off for injury concerns we should be talking about what the next coaching regime can do to make the most of his talents.

Mile High Shack
12-27-2010, 07:25 AM
If we give him a power back to pair him with and suddenly he gives us 5 seasons like Tiki Barber did for the last few of his career would he be worth the #12 pick then?

I still personally think McDaniels is a quality X's and O's coach. But the one point I really hate about his offensive strategies is his poor management of Moreno. He was slow to use him in the passing game and he tried to use him as a 1990's ever down feature back with a change of pace scat back (Buckhalter) working with him. That doesn't hold up in today's NFL.

Get the OL healthy and gelled together, add some WRs who can actually block, get Moreno healthy and then see if he's worth the #12 overall pick. What we do know is that he isn't an outright bust like so many first rounders before have been. That he can definitely play on Sundays and when given the right opportunities has even shown the ability to be a game changer. Instead of writing him off for injury concerns we should be talking about what the next coaching regime can do to make the most of his talents.

just b/c I said he wasn't worth a #12 pick, doesn't mean I think he's a bust. He's a pretty good player, but he needs his workload paired back as you stated. He can't handle the every down workload....I think when he is paired with a power back (like you said) he can be pretty good. 1a and 1b....he is talented, but his nagging injuries are worrisome.

Drek
12-27-2010, 07:39 AM
just b/c I said he wasn't worth a #12 pick, doesn't mean I think he's a bust. He's a pretty good player, but he needs his workload paired back as you stated. He can't handle the every down workload....I think when he is paired with a power back (like you said) he can be pretty good. 1a and 1b....he is talented, but his nagging injuries are worrisome.

Its not so much the work load, its how the work load is doled out.

He isn't a pound it up the gut power back like McDaniels was often trying to use him as. He can do that role but it isn't where you'll see the athleticism and skill set that had him go 12th overall. That skill set shows up when you use him off tackle or get him the ball on screen passes.

He's an incredibly versatile back who can do a ton of good things for a football team, but like all backs in the NFL today he can't be a 30 carry a game bell cow. He should get 15-20 carries a game and 5-10 receptions a game, averaging about 25 touches per. That should be paired with a real short yardage power back who gets 5-10 touches a game grinding out 3rd and shorts.

Tiki Barber's career completely transformed when he was given Brandon Jacobs to take the load of short yardage work off of him. That is what the Broncos should be looking to to with Moreno. Its not making him 1A to someone else's 1B, its simply using Moreno in ways that fit his skill set, not just saying "we drafted a guy 12th overall so he plays EVERY down at a position that no one in the NFL plays every down at anymore". Chris Johnson and Adrian Peterson aren't every down backs in the NFL. They have quality backups who spell them in specific situations as well. Hell, prior to this year Peterson was basically never on the field for 3rd and longs because Chester Taylor was a better receiving option.

ColoradoDarin
12-27-2010, 08:09 AM
I think adding a complementary speed back would be beneficial. A Darren Sproles type. Darren Sproles and Leon Washington are both free agents at the end of the year, if I am not mistaken. Also look at players like Derrick Locke, Quizz Rodgers, and Noel Devine in the draft. Hopefully we could pick up some mid round selections to target one of those players

I'm pretty sure Quizz has said he's staying at OSU for another year, but I do hope we get him then. He'll drop because of his size, but man does he 'get lost' behind blockers and defenders can't see him :)

Sproles would be good because he could handle some return duties too.

broncofan2438
12-27-2010, 08:14 AM
Yea, we need something more from the running game. How many more years are we going to give Moreno before we try something else? The dude needs to stay on the field, period.

DarkHorse30
12-27-2010, 08:32 AM
Anyone who questions Moreno's toughness and commitment to this team honesty just doesn't have a ****ing clue.



God Bless you.

I'm sorry but Moreno is an injury waiting to happen. The guy DOES have flashes of great stuff, but I'd like to see 3 games of non-injury status in a row before I declare him a non-bust. I'm equally unimpressed with DJ Williams, not for his injuries but for his average-ness. The guy was a #17 pick; no more exuses, I'm ready to trade him to Washington...

broncosteven
12-27-2010, 08:59 AM
Yea, we need something more from the running game. How many more years are we going to give Moreno before we try something else? The dude needs to stay on the field, period.

The avg career of an NFL player is supposed to be 3 years. If true I hope we find out what KM has next year.

txtebow
12-27-2010, 09:00 AM
DeAngelo Williams time in Denver......

mhgaffney
12-27-2010, 09:04 AM
Hillis would have made a near perfect combo with Moreno -- and the fact McD did not get this was enough reason right there to show McD the door...

TheReverend
12-27-2010, 09:17 AM
Lance Ball, the guy who only once has broken 10 carries in a game when he had 15 touches for 20 yards JUST LAST WEEK looks better than Knowshon Moreno?

Wow. The immediate negative bias filter all McDaniels draft picks are viewed through is abso-****ing-lutely INSANE around here.

Ummmm, no, there's no negative bias towards "McDaneils draft picks"

Tebow is beloved.

Alphonso got a rap for being awful.

Knowshon is getting one for being less productive than Selvin ****ing Young.

Ayers is creeping too.

Drek
12-27-2010, 09:27 AM
Ummmm, no, there's no negative bias towards "McDaneils draft picks"

Tebow is beloved.
He's Tim Tebow, he's immune to the influences of any other, as would be expected from someone who rebuffed the devil's overtures after 40 days and 40 nights wandering the desert.

Alphonso got a rap for being awful.
Unfortunately never got much of a chance here and I still don't like trading him, but what's done is done.

Knowshon is getting one for being less productive than Selvin ****ing Young.
Except the whole being more productive with inferior blocking deal.

Ayers is creeping too.
Creeping towards what? Being our best front seven player not named after the king of rock?

ColoradoDarin
12-27-2010, 09:32 AM
Ayers is creeping too.

Creeping towards what? Being our best front seven player not named after the king of rock?

Yeah, creeping, because all a defender needs to do is sack the quarterback. He doesn't need to be an all-around good player, or a beast against the run. Nope, just sacks!!

TheReverend
12-27-2010, 09:41 AM
Except the whole being more productive with inferior blocking deal.

In 8 starts player one has 729 yards rushing at 5.2 ypc and 231 receiving
In 12 starts player two has 738 yards rushing at 4.2 ypc and 370 receiving

There comes a time when excuses have to end, kiddo.

Creeping towards what? Being our best front seven player not named after the king of rock?

Irrelevance? He hasn't played well since the first quarter of the season but fortunately managed to make a few tackles (aka have runners trip over him) vs Arizona getting steam rolled. Tim Hightower rushed for a career high 8.2 yards per carry and a career high 148 yards, while the Cardinals as a whole rushed for a season high 211 yards and 6.2 ypc.

Btw, that's the #31 ranked rushing offense (they were #32 before scorching Denver on the ground) at 87.3 ypg... they damn near tripled their usual rushing production.

TheReverend
12-27-2010, 09:45 AM
Yeah, creeping, because all a defender needs to do is sack the quarterback. He doesn't need to be an all-around good player, or a beast against the run. Nope, just sacks!!

YUP YOU CAUGHT ME! THAT'S WHY IVE BEEN SAYING THIS SINCE THE OFFSEASON:

At LB we need Ayers to step up. I could care less about pressure from him. I'm more concerned with seeing him set a solid edge on the SS and start stringing any OT running plays out or force them to bounce it back inside. We can make some significant strides in our run D if Ayers can just calm down, read his keys, and step up with reckless abandon.

http://orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2885683&postcount=14

Frankly, he hasn't been strong at the POA since Tennessee.

ColoradoDarin
12-27-2010, 09:49 AM
YUP YOU CAUGHT ME! THAT'S WHY IVE BEEN SAYING THIS SINCE THE OFFSEASON:



http://orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2885683&postcount=14

Frankly, he hasn't been strong at the POA since Tennessee.

I wasn't specifically directing that at you, but it seemed it was needed to be said somewhere in this thread and you were just lucky enough for me to quote you :P

I thought he came back too soon (I even thought they should have looked at putting him in IR), he looked either rusty or not trusting that foot when he came back.

TheReverend
12-27-2010, 09:52 AM
I wasn't specifically directing that at you, but it seemed it was needed to be said somewhere in this thread and you were just lucky enough for me to quote you :P

I thought he came back too soon (I even thought they should have looked at putting him in IR), he looked either rusty or not trusting that foot when he came back.

I've been advocating this kid since long before he was drafted, but as a 4-3 end. So far two years into his career we have a grand total of 2-3 games where he's at best showed promise. Fortunately, he should be significantly more productive when we inevitably switch back to a 4-3 next year.

HAT
12-27-2010, 09:56 AM
Ummmm, no, there's no negative bias towards "McDaneils draft picks"



Knowshon is getting one for being less productive than Selvin ****ing Young.

.

I don't know about Selvin Young but here's a guy Moreno compares favorably to.......Anyone care to guess who player B is? ^5

Through 15 games in 2010.

Moreno:4.2 YPCarry, 10.3 YPCatch, 5.22 yards per touch, 8 TD's total, 1 TD every 26.5 touches, 3 fumbles, 2 lost

PLAYER B: 4.4 YPCarry, 7.9 YPCatch, 5.05 yards per touch, 13 TD's total, 1 TD every 25 touches, 8 fumbles, 5 lost.


Unless you were talking about his injury troubles? Can't really blame anyone for that since it wasn't a problem in colllege.

TheReverend
12-27-2010, 10:00 AM
I don't know about Selvin Young but here's a guy Moreno compares favorably to.......Anyone care to guess who player B is? ^5

Through 15 games in 2010.

Moreno:4.2 YPCarry, 10.3 YPCatch, 5.22 yards per touch, 8 TD's total, 1 TD every 26.5 touches, 3 fumbles, 2 lost

PLAYER B: 4.4 YPCarry, 7.9 YPCatch, 5.05 yards per touch, 13 TD's total, 1 TD every 25 touches, 8 fumbles, 5 lost.


Unless you were talking about his injury troubles? Can't really blame anyone for that since it wasn't a problem in colllege.

If you're trying to make a supporting point that Knowshon Moreno, the 12th overall pick, is only slightly less productive than Peyton Hillis, a seventh round pick at 227 overall, then I have to question the logic.

HAT
12-27-2010, 10:06 AM
If you're trying to make a supporting point that Knowshon Moreno, the 12th overall pick, is only slightly less productive than Peyton Hillis, a seventh round pick at 227 overall, then I have to question the logic.

First of all, I'm arguing that Moreno is more productive, not less.

I could care less where either was drafted....That matters for about 15 minutes on draft day, after that they are all football players. Try telling the Hillis jockeys that McD simply traded a '7th rounder' for Quinn.

Drek
12-27-2010, 10:12 AM
If you're trying to make a supporting point that Knowshon Moreno, the 12th overall pick, is only slightly less productive than Peyton Hillis, a seventh round pick at 227 overall, then I have to question the logic.

Wait, last I checked wasn't Peyton Hillis this amazing all-pro back McDaniels traded for magic beans? When did he get relegated to 7th round pick status again?

Oh right. Suits the argument. I get it.

In 8 starts player one has 729 yards rushing at 5.2 ypc and 231 receiving
In 12 starts player two has 738 yards rushing at 4.2 ypc and 370 receiving

There comes a time when excuses have to end, kiddo.
In 21 starts one player has 1685 yards rushing with 12 touchdowns and 583 yards receiving with 5 touchdowns.

The other in 13 starts has 1032 yards rushing with 2 touchdowns, 287 yards receiving with zero touchdowns.

Thats your first two year production comparison for Moreno and Young, respectively.

Don't know about you but I'm a big fan of running backs who score touchdowns. And the whole "Moreno doesn't put up big YPC" argument was last year's dead horse to beat on.

Oh, and unlike the mighty Selvin, when Moreno gets injured he actually still tries to play! How crazy is that!

Irrelevance? He hasn't played well since the first quarter of the season but fortunately managed to make a few tackles (aka have runners trip over him) vs Arizona getting steam rolled. Tim Hightower rushed for a career high 8.2 yards per carry and a career high 148 yards, while the Cardinals as a whole rushed for a season high 211 yards and 6.2 ypc.

Btw, that's the #31 ranked rushing offense (they were #32 before scorching Denver on the ground) at 87.3 ypg... they damn near tripled their usual rushing production.

Wait, I thought you were the guy who said this:
"At LB we need Ayers to step up. I could care less about pressure from him. I'm more concerned with seeing him set a solid edge on the SS and start stringing any OT running plays out or force them to bounce it back inside. We can make some significant strides in our run D if Ayers can just calm down, read his keys, and step up with reckless abandon."

Now prior to breaking his foot, missing over a third of the season, only to return and find the defense in even further shambles than when he'd left it I'd say he pretty much did what you asked for. He took the off-season and pre-season to become a solid all around OLB who could stuff the run.

Doesn't seem particularly fair or accurate to lay all the run stopping woes strictly at Ayers feet. Its not like he can make every tackle all over the field. But by your own admission when he was healthy and the DL was a little less puke worthy he did exactly what you asked of him for this season. This from a guy most viewed as a three year project, only in his second year.

So meeting your goals but suffering significant injury is grounds to rule someone irrelevant two years into their NFL career? Wait, what am I saying, of course it is. Thats the whole point to this thread.

Spurious logic, the stock and trade of any good OM poster.

Bigdawg26
12-27-2010, 10:13 AM
Pretty sure as a OLB ayers is supposed to have some pass rush ability(which he doesn't). I know your supposed to be all around player, but I say if he's such a good run stuffer then bulk him up and put him @ DE.

TheReverend
12-27-2010, 10:38 AM
Wait, last I checked wasn't Peyton Hillis this amazing all-pro back McDaniels traded for magic beans? When did he get relegated to 7th round pick status again?

Oh right. Suits the argument. I get it.

Do you have me accidentally confused with some big Hillis supporter?

In 21 starts one player has 1685 yards rushing with 12 touchdowns and 583 yards receiving with 5 touchdowns.

The other in 13 starts has 1032 yards rushing with 2 touchdowns, 287 yards receiving with zero touchdowns.

Thats your first two year production comparison for Moreno and Young, respectively.

Don't know about you but I'm a big fan of running backs who score touchdowns. And the whole "Moreno doesn't put up big YPC" argument was last year's dead horse to beat on.

Oh, and unlike the mighty Selvin, when Moreno gets injured he actually still tries to play! How crazy is that!

I see the point of comparable production from Moreno and Selvin is lost on you. Not surprising. You're both slow and a poser.

Wait, I thought you were the guy who said this:
"At LB we need Ayers to step up. I could care less about pressure from him. I'm more concerned with seeing him set a solid edge on the SS and start stringing any OT running plays out or force them to bounce it back inside. We can make some significant strides in our run D if Ayers can just calm down, read his keys, and step up with reckless abandon."

Now prior to breaking his foot, missing over a third of the season, only to return and find the defense in even further shambles than when he'd left it I'd say he pretty much did what you asked for. He took the off-season and pre-season to become a solid all around OLB who could stuff the run.

Doesn't seem particularly fair or accurate to lay all the run stopping woes strictly at Ayers feet. Its not like he can make every tackle all over the field. But by your own admission when he was healthy and the DL was a little less puke worthy he did exactly what you asked of him for this season. This from a guy most viewed as a three year project, only in his second year.

So meeting your goals but suffering significant injury is grounds to rule someone irrelevant two years into their NFL career? Wait, what am I saying, of course it is. Thats the whole point to this thread.

Spurious logic, the stock and trade of any good OM poster.

Like I said, in 2 years now, he's had 2-3 games where he's showed, at best, promise. Also stop putting words in my mouth, I never said the bolded statement. That's your standard poor analysis. Also, "most viewed as a three year project"? Name two outside of Mike Mayock who was alone on vaulting his projection of Ayers from mid 2nd rounder after Ayers had a fierce senior bowl.

All the run stuffing woes aren't laid at his feet, but if you look at the rushing breakdown, Arizona made it a point to attack Ayers. Not only that but on the plays where he actually managed to make the tackle they were of an average of 5.4 yards down field. In this is in his best game in half a year!

And spurious logic? What exactly are you grading him on? It sure as **** isn't consistency, strength against the run, cpverage or pass rushing... so what criteria are you exactly using to evaluate him?

Keep up the good work, I enjoy reading your posts to break the monotony of my day up with some laughter. Do me a favor and try to get more technical though. I adore it when you try to use buzzwords you casually heard but use 100% wrong. Homer on, poser.

Drek
12-27-2010, 11:39 AM
Touch a nerve Rev?

Since you chose not to respond to the first claim or the second, both where you're trying to use draft pedigree for guys who've actually started in the NFL, and ignoring things like touchdowns scored I'll leave those be, you obviously aren't up for actually discussing the comparison you made as anything more than a superficial cherry picking of stats.

As for Ayers, I didn't put any words in your mouth. I took a statement you made, that in his first few games he did what you where hoping he'd do this year, and expanded upon it. He did it when the DL hadn't completely fallen to shambles, or for that matter the entire team.

But you insist on beating the drum that a guy who rushed back from a broken foot should be playing at 100% only the third week back, the two before only seeing limited action.

Of course the ass whooping Arizona put on this team just after McDaniels got fired is 100% on Ayers' inability to contain the run. Had nothing to do with an obviously demoralized team and a very poor coaching staff having no clue what they were doing.

What it boils down to: Ayers showed the exact growth you outlined as wanting to see prior to getting hurt. In a very limited sample he's looked rough since then. As a result you're back to labeling him a bust.

Three partial games with a team in complete disarray mean more to you than four near complete games to open a season when something resembling a real defensive gameplan was still being attempted. And you wonder why I say this place views all of McDaniels' moves except St. Tebow with very heavy bias.

But sure, if it makes those nerves feel a little less sensitive I'm a homer, a poser, whatever makes the hate on active Broncos players taste that much sweeter.

TheReverend
12-27-2010, 11:57 AM
Touch a nerve Rev?

Not at all. I love reading your posts. They keep me entertained for years.

Some of my favorites outside of you completely blowing terminology were how Mangini got saddled with Favre by the GM despite Mangini actually naming his kid after Brett to try and help convince him to come to the Jets... but I think my hands down favorite was when you suggested we retain Jay Cutler and bench him all year to ruin his career and to teach him a lesson. That's both mature and in the best interest of the ball club. Since then there's been a myriad of hilarity with your pro McDaniels slant and my most recent favorite was your defense of Clancy Barone's work coaching the OL. Ha! Honestly, keep up the good work.

Since you chose not to respond to the first claim or the second, both where you're trying to use draft pedigree for guys who've actually started in the NFL, and ignoring things like touchdowns scored I'll leave those be, you obviously aren't up for actually discussing the comparison you made as anything more than a superficial cherry picking of stats.

Then it's a horrible point considering Hillis craps all over Knowshon in the TD department and that Selvin would get replaced on short yardage situations for guys like Pittman.

So, no, I'm not cherry picking anything. By your actual cherry picked production value, was Mike Bell all world in 2006 when he scored 8 TDs off 157 carries?

It's no big deal either way. I supported Knowshon up to Sunday. Seeing him on the sideline when his rookie QB needs playmakers and safety valves yet again should be shaking everyone's faith in him. Either you will eventually agree, or he'll get his **** together. I'd prefer the latter like any Broncos fan, but the team needs a contingency plan this offseason.

As for Ayers, I didn't put any words in your mouth. I took a statement you made, that in his first few games he did what you where hoping he'd do this year, and expanded upon it. He did it when the DL hadn't completely fallen to shambles, or for that matter the entire team.

But you insist on beating the drum that a guy who rushed back from a broken foot should be playing at 100% only the third week back, the two before only seeing limited action.

Of course the ass whooping Arizona put on this team just after McDaniels got fired is 100% on Ayers' inability to contain the run. Had nothing to do with an obviously demoralized team and a very poor coaching staff having no clue what they were doing.

What it boils down to: Ayers showed the exact growth you outlined as wanting to see prior to getting hurt. In a very limited sample he's looked rough since then. As a result you're back to labeling him a bust.

Three partial games with a team in complete disarray mean more to you than four near complete games to open a season when something resembling a real defensive gameplan was still being attempted. And you wonder why I say this place views all of McDaniels' moves except St. Tebow with very heavy bias.

But sure, if it makes those nerves feel a little less sensitive I'm a homer, a poser, whatever makes the hate on active Broncos players taste that much sweeter.

Ayers played 5 games before his injury this season, fyi, and it'd be GENEROUS to say he performed at a starting NFL level in 3 of them.

Once again you continue to put words into my mouth to support your agenda. I never said Ayers is 100% responsible for the ass whooping from Arizona. What I did say is that IT IS his fault that teams have a tendency to run at him. What does that tell you about our POA/run stuffing OLB?

Cute finish to your post though. Now I "hate on active Broncos players"? Newsflash for you: I've supported those two since even before their draft days. It's their performance that's putting them in a negative light. Not me.

strafen
12-27-2010, 12:01 PM
For a 12th overall pick, he's not cutting it.
I still call him a bust.
Let's move on.
People didn't like it when I called him a bust last year.
I was told..."let's wait another year before we call him a bust"
Now, 2 years in, and the guy is still not producing.
The career lifespan of a RB averages 3-4 years?
And we're still waiting for the real Moreno to show up?

~Crash~
12-27-2010, 12:06 PM
For a 12th overall pick, he's not cutting it.
I still call him a bust.
Let's move on.
People didn't like it when I called him a bust last year.
I was told..."let's wait another year before we call him a bust"
Now, 2 years in, and the guy is still not producing.
The career lifespan of a RB averages 3-4 years?
And we're still waiting for the real Moreno to show up?

Just because you say so ... LOL

um I think you should lighten the **** up, but hey keep them coming.

I would say Moreno has gotten better with time I was worried last year not so much after this year . I would like to see him with zone blocking. He is no power back .

Drek
12-27-2010, 12:29 PM
Not at all. I love reading your posts. They keep me entertained for years.

Some of my favorites outside of you completely blowing terminology were how Mangini got saddled with Favre by the GM despite Mangini actually naming his kid after Brett to try and help convince him to come to the Jets... but I think my hands down favorite was when you suggested we retain Jay Cutler and bench him all year to ruin his career and to teach him a lesson. That's both mature and in the best interest of the ball club. Since then there's been a myriad of hilarity with your pro McDaniels slant and my most recent favorite was your defense of Clancy Barone's work coaching the OL. Ha! Honestly, keep up the good work.

All good times Rev, though you seem to constantly lack the ability to remember any perspective but your own.

Such as the Mangini/Favre issue. I never painted it as Mangini saddled with Favre, just that the relationship had turned to **** after the fact. Maybe you're thinking of someone else? The overt questioning and subordination that Favre went through in his last few games with the Jets I'm sure was just good natured jokes though.

And if you recall the logic I'd suggested with Cutler was to make him stay and bench him until he'd play. Not let him whine and backbite his way out of town, like he ultimately did and got that nice fat contract Bus Cook was looking for. Which I said he was doing on here, repeatedly. Convenient how multitudes of Cutler fans on here were saying it was all because McDaniels was a big meanie and had nothing to do with money, but just a few short months later Cutler had a shiny new contract.

And again, you fail to read for content when it came to my posts on Clancy Barone where I outlined how he did in fact have some OL coaching experience and how while he might suck at the job we should at least give him more than a few weeks before we unanimously rule it to be true. And gosh, ,what do you know, after the OL got healthy again they actually showed signs of not being complete trash. Hell, by Football Outsiders metric (not something I'd agree with mind you) they were the 7th best OL in football just a few weeks ago. Do I think Barone has done an acceptable job? Hell no. But given the benefit of time he did show himself to be a little better than completely inept. Again that was all I was arguing for, the benefit of time before you scream "off with his head!"

Its an interesting form of football related myopia you suffer from. I'd point out a few times you've been good for a laugh myself if I didn't find it a rather classless way to skate on not actually wanting to argue the points.

As for Moreno and Ayers, you've been moderately supportive of both up to this point. I just find this an interesting jumping off point for their respective bandwagons. Moreno is trying to play through I believe his third legitimate injury of the season. Ayers is still obviously not 100% and is playing on a team with a lot of guys who are just mailing it in.

The fact that Moreno of all people is being singled out with a thread about him mailing it in is whats laughable here, along with all the quick agreement posts that followed.

If these are the reasons you drop support for two second year players that strikes me as rather fickle. Maybe you'll be right. Maybe both will wash out of the league. But I see more positives than negatives in each player's second year performances to date.

DarkHorse30
12-27-2010, 12:33 PM
http://www.kffl.com/gnews.php?id=689024-broncos-knowshon-moreno-could-have-returned-week-16

Studesville said (Linsey Jones per KFFL) that Knowshon "could have returned to the team's Week 16 game after injuring his rib but RB Correll Buckhalter played well in Moreno's absence".

So.....why is the RB Coach/hc not playing Moreno when he can be played? I like Moreno, but the guy is playing/not playing is way off the starting team.

TheReverend
12-27-2010, 01:35 PM
All good times Rev, though you seem to constantly lack the ability to remember any perspective but your own.

Such as the Mangini/Favre issue. I never painted it as Mangini saddled with Favre, just that the relationship had turned to **** after the fact. Maybe you're thinking of someone else? The overt questioning and subordination that Favre went through in his last few games with the Jets I'm sure was just good natured jokes though.

And if you recall the logic I'd suggested with Cutler was to make him stay and bench him until he'd play. Not let him whine and backbite his way out of town, like he ultimately did and got that nice fat contract Bus Cook was looking for. Which I said he was doing on here, repeatedly. Convenient how multitudes of Cutler fans on here were saying it was all because McDaniels was a big meanie and had nothing to do with money, but just a few short months later Cutler had a shiny new contract.

And again, you fail to read for content when it came to my posts on Clancy Barone where I outlined how he did in fact have some OL coaching experience and how while he might suck at the job we should at least give him more than a few weeks before we unanimously rule it to be true. And gosh, ,what do you know, after the OL got healthy again they actually showed signs of not being complete trash. Hell, by Football Outsiders metric (not something I'd agree with mind you) they were the 7th best OL in football just a few weeks ago. Do I think Barone has done an acceptable job? Hell no. But given the benefit of time he did show himself to be a little better than completely inept. Again that was all I was arguing for, the benefit of time before you scream "off with his head!"

Its an interesting form of football related myopia you suffer from. I'd point out a few times you've been good for a laugh myself if I didn't find it a rather classless way to skate on not actually wanting to argue the points.

As for Moreno and Ayers, you've been moderately supportive of both up to this point. I just find this an interesting jumping off point for their respective bandwagons. Moreno is trying to play through I believe his third legitimate injury of the season. Ayers is still obviously not 100% and is playing on a team with a lot of guys who are just mailing it in.

The fact that Moreno of all people is being singled out with a thread about him mailing it in is whats laughable here, along with all the quick agreement posts that followed.

If these are the reasons you drop support for two second year players that strikes me as rather fickle. Maybe you'll be right. Maybe both will wash out of the league. But I see more positives than negatives in each player's second year performances to date.

I haven't "dropped my support" for either player. Certainly not Ayers. Earlier in this thread I mention that his production will spike when we return to a 4-3. And my criticism with Knowshon is clearly echoed by the coaching staff and his position coach. Like I also said earlier, we need a contingency plan for him this offseason. If that sounds like "dropping support" to you instead of an intelligent way to approach to 2011, then you have deeper homer issues than I imagined.

I'm entirely too lazy to look up the specific examples from years ago, so I'll post some of the hilarity from my Clancy Barone thread (was easy to find since I was the thread starter):

He was an assistant OL coach with the Falcons, under Gibbs. Also under Jeff Jagodzinski, the official position coach who retained the same position in '05.

Barone in fact was apparently so impressive in just one season as an NFL assistant positional coach that the team felt completely comfortable with moving him to a full positional coach title of his own.

Of course that did follow up a collegiate career in which he was voted the 2002 D1A Offensive Line Coach of the Year by The National Offensive Line Coaches Association (i.e. a vote from his collective peers), while doing so he had a no name back at Houston place in the top 10 leading rushers for the year. And while coaching at Wyoming, that football stalwart, his offensive lines only gave up 35 sacks, in three seasons combined.

And yes, while at Wyoming and Houston he was both the OC and the OL coach.

When we see on tape the O line blatantly missing assignments its not time to point fingers at the coach. It starts with the players. Especially when 95% of the time our OL problems are the cause of a single player displaying catastrophic failure while the rest of the OL does their job. Then the next play its another OL failing while the guy who sucked last play does his job. The OL obviously knows their assignments for the most part because generally each player did his job. They just took turns being the guilty party on every play. With Daniels and Walton taking a disproportionately large share.

It only takes one defender in the backfield at the time of hand off to scuttle a run play.

Its Barone's job to coach out these mistakes and relay the necessary personnel changes needed, if he feels there are any, to McDaniels. But he gets a bit longer than a few weeks to iron them out when he's been adding a new offensive lineman on a near weekly basis to start the year.

Prompting:

Ah, well there's a stellar award I've never heard of from a powerhouse program like Houston going 5-7 that season. Must've been a mammoth accomplishment.

In fact, since I've never even really heard of the organization, I googled it just because I wanted to look into the history of the other esteemed award winners, but I'll be damned if it doesn't ONLY come up in references to Clancy Barone.

http://www.google.com/search?q=National+Offensive+Line+Coaches+Associati on&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&expIds=25657,25907,26805,26885&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=%22National+Offensive+Line+Coaches+Association%2 2&cp=1&pf=p&sclient=psy&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=daj&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=%22National+Offensive+Line+Coaches+Association% 22&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=9f2370386c77b788

Forgive the long link. If you can dig up a reference history of that award and how many coaches they give it to annually, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks for also linking his coaching experience at Texas State. That was a learning experience for me considering I wasn't aware they actually had a football team. Must've been one hell of a "promotion" for him, and well deserved with the successful 4-8 season they had after his arrival

1. The personnel people have ZERO influence on what goes on the coaches bio. That is the media relations dept, 90% of which have no idea what coaches do, let alone what is noteworthy in a career. You ever read those things, they are simply terrible.

2. The great running years in ATL are totally skewed by the Mick Vick factor. Take out the 800 QB rushing yards, the inability to pass for 3000 yards, and that was why they were the top rushing attack for so many years. They were barely top 10 in RB avg per carry and a lot of that is based on playing Vick to RUN.

3. Never use college awards to tout pro coaches. It is not the same skillset, and coaching pro players is very different than coaching college kids. You get away with more in college than you can in the Pros. Look at the Nick Saban's and Steve Spurrier's of the world, unbelievable college coaches, miserable pro Coaches.

4. Coaching is an issue with all the players in limbo on the OL. In fact, coaching is more important right now than later with all the chemistry intact and everyone healthy. I could coach that! Right now, is when the position coaches skill comes into play. That is unless Mike Martz is your OC (Still feel sorry for Mike Tice, well not really!) and you keep calling seven step drops into pressure ;D That is not the fault of the OL coach, that's a playcalling issue.

What is the fault of the OL coach is players not running plays the way they are called. That is what I would question. However, the TEN tape is SOO BAD it is almost impossible to see if players are able to block G-power runs since they are all in the backfield.

One thing is for sure, there was maybe 1 play that was blocked as it was called all game. That is not acceptable for any coach. It does not matter WHO is out there, it is their job to get people to play the way the play is called. One out of 20 is a poor job, and they were unable to make any adjustments that worked throughout the game. No way to spin that, that is not good coaching.

This isn't the raging out Cutler quote I referenced earlier, but this one was so amusing that I saved it so for sheer convenience I'll just put that one up:

Let Chris Simms start, sit Cutler's ass on the bench until he realizes that Cook's shady tactics are going to destroy his career. Or someone offers us a couple firsts an another day one pick.

I also had forgotten about how big of a Chris Simms supporter you were! Hilarious!

Let me ask you a serious question...

When was the last time you were correct about anything here? By all means, I'd like you to try and toot your own horn, because to people who do know what they're talking about, you're an amusing buffoon, but an affable one so PLEASE don't let that slow you down or discourage you in any way shape or form.

TheReverend
12-27-2010, 01:37 PM
Adding to Clancy especially RE: the OL metric ranking #7 in the league recently, how does that make you feel about benching Harris for a month and a half while he didn't sniff the injury report?

CEH
12-27-2010, 06:34 PM
He seemed like he was running fine and doing well and all of a sudden he's out again???

It's called the NFL. The chance of injury 10 weeks in is close to 100%. Everyone is beat up , battered and brusied.

Some play play through the pain. Others not so much.

Believe me his teammates are watching

oubronco
12-27-2010, 06:40 PM
http://www.kffl.com/gnews.php?id=689024-broncos-knowshon-moreno-could-have-returned-week-16

Studesville said (Linsey Jones per KFFL) that Knowshon "could have returned to the team's Week 16 game after injuring his rib but RB Correll Buckhalter played well in Moreno's absence".

So.....why is the RB Coach/hc not playing Moreno when he can be played? I like Moreno, but the guy is playing/not playing is way off the starting team.

Because as he stated that buckhalter and Ball were doing good so he went with the hot hand that's it

You guys are reading too much into this

broncocalijohn
12-27-2010, 06:48 PM
First of all, I'm arguing that Moreno is more productive, not less.

I could care less where either was drafted....That matters for about 15 minutes on draft day, after that they are all football players. Try telling the Hillis jockeys that McD simply traded a '7th rounder' for Quinn.

Dont even tell us your two stats side by side are to confirm that Moreno has been more productive than Hillis this year. Really? What planet does your complete stats come from? I see you forgot to put on the post total yards for this year for both Moreno and Hillis. Then again, what does total yards have to do with production ? Sit this one out. Missouribronc wants to take over and save you from us from further embarrassment.

broncosteven
12-27-2010, 07:09 PM
Because as he stated that buckhalter and Ball were doing good so he went with the hot hand that's it

You guys are reading too much into this

When your 3rd behind Buck and Lance Ball and you were a 12th pick overall you got problems.

TonyR
12-27-2010, 08:00 PM
When your 3rd behind Buck and Lance Ball...

Moreno started the game so he's not "3rd behind" anyone. He got dinged early in the game and a decision was made to go with the other guys. Disappointing and frustrating? Yes. Some huge, dramatic conspiracy? No.

DarkHorse30
12-27-2010, 09:31 PM
Because as he stated that buckhalter and Ball were doing good so he went with the hot hand that's it

You guys are reading too much into this

I'm disappointed with the way he seems to be always NOT in the game. He is a STARTER. I have never liked the RBC, and I want ONE back to carry 20+ per game......and then ONE other guy, as a second. Not TWO. ONE. Screw the 3rd down back. I think it's an exuse for a lousy running game.

Taco John
12-27-2010, 09:33 PM
http://www.kffl.com/gnews.php?id=689024-broncos-knowshon-moreno-could-have-returned-week-16

Studesville said (Linsey Jones per KFFL) that Knowshon "could have returned to the team's Week 16 game after injuring his rib but RB Correll Buckhalter played well in Moreno's absence".

So.....why is the RB Coach/hc not playing Moreno when he can be played? I like Moreno, but the guy is playing/not playing is way off the starting team.

Because Buckhalter is faster than Moreno and his speed gives us a better chance to win. Moreno is slow.

Taco John
12-27-2010, 09:35 PM
Moreno started the game so he's not "3rd behind" anyone. He got dinged early in the game and a decision was made to go with the other guys. Disappointing and frustrating? Yes. Some huge, dramatic conspiracy? No.

Some of you guys don't know how to use the word "conspiracy." It's funny because you present yourself as intelligent, and then misuse such a simple word.

When a player sucks and gets kept on the sidelines, nobody is saying it's a "conspiracy." Please stop using this word to describe player evaluations. You sound like jr. high school kids who learned a new vocabulary word and trying to force it into conversations where it doesn't fit.

Garcia Bronco
12-27-2010, 09:38 PM
Lance Ball, the guy who only once has broken 10 carries in a game when he had 15 touches for 20 yards JUST LAST WEEK looks better than Knowshon Moreno?

Wow. The immediate negative bias filter all McDaniels draft picks are viewed through is abso-****ing-lutely INSANE around here.

Lance Ball was a McDaniels pick as well. Give it up. Moreno isn't the best option to depend on in a game.

Garcia Bronco
12-27-2010, 09:40 PM
Hard to see the second level when you can't get to it because your OL plays like dog piss week in and week out. <\]:0)

Even when the OL line has played well, this year and last, he's been spotty making good decisions in space.

Garcia Bronco
12-27-2010, 09:43 PM
and lol and the stupid tiki barber comparisons. notice the Giants actually won a super bowl once that ass retired.

Taco John
12-27-2010, 09:46 PM
Wow. The immediate negative bias filter all McDaniels draft picks are viewed through is abso-****ing-lutely INSANE around here.

Knowshon's inability to turn a corner before getting dragged down has nothing to do with anti-McDaniels bias. The guy is slow. Maybe it's injury. Maybe it's just that he's slow. Whatever the excuse, the problem is still the same: he's sloooooow.

HAT
12-27-2010, 09:47 PM
Dont even tell us your two stats side by side are to confirm that Moreno has been more productive than Hillis this year. Really? What planet does your complete stats come from? I see you forgot to put on the post total yards for this year for both Moreno and Hillis. Then again, what does total yards have to do with production ? Sit this one out. Missouribronc wants to take over and save you from us from further embarrassment.

No, I hear ya bro....Moreno is no where near as durable as Hillis to date....He is, however, more productive when he is healthy enough to get a touch.

Taco John
12-27-2010, 09:50 PM
No, I hear ya bro....Moreno is no where near as durable as Hillis to date....He is, however, more productive when he is healthy enough to get a touch.


If only this were true.

HAT
12-27-2010, 09:56 PM
If only this were true.

It's not? Perhaps you care to touch on TD's, Yards & fumbles per touch in 2010?

I concede that KM can't seem to stay healthy.....But when he's on the field he is all kinds of better than Hillis (When you consider blocking ability)

I get it though bro....People can't even answer post #311 in the Tebow/Cutler thread.

Perfectly natural for most people to deflect and let a thread die rather than use their mind.

Garcia Bronco
12-27-2010, 09:57 PM
If only this were true.

No ****. It's 3rd and 1... I am not putting Moreno in the game. Once we started using Tebow around did we start having a chance to get red zone td's inside the 5. He can still contribute though.

Taco John
12-27-2010, 11:39 PM
It's not? Perhaps you care to touch on TD's, Yards & fumbles per touch in 2010?

I concede that KM can't seem to stay healthy.....But when he's on the field he is all kinds of better than Hillis (When you consider blocking ability)


Sure. Peyton Hillis has 11 rushing TDs in 264 carries. That's a touchdown every 24 carries. In Walter Payton's best season he had 14 rushing TDs in 339 carries. That's a touchdown every 24 carries. By no means am I trying to say that Peyton Hillis even holds a candle to Walter Peyton's accomplished career, but in straight rushing production, Hillis is matching Walter Payton's career best TD pace.

By the way, Moreno has 5 rushing TDs on 176 carries. That equates to a touchdown every 35 touches.

Hillis's rushing average over the season is 4.4 per touch. Moreno is 4.2 per touch.

Why are we even having this discussion? You must have found some fancy ways to twist the stats that gave you the funny idea that Moreno was a better producer than Peyton Hillis. If you've got these funny numbers, by all means, let's see the spin. I'm guessing that you are leaning on Moreno's receiving numbers HEAVILY and calling Moreno a better all-purpose producer or something. Even that is a stretch.

Durability is half the battle of being a good runningback. You have to be on the field in order to produce.

Taco John
12-27-2010, 11:48 PM
No ****. It's 3rd and 1... I am not putting Moreno in the game. Once we started using Tebow around did we start having a chance to get red zone td's inside the 5. He can still contribute though.

Josh McDaniels seems to agree. Moreno had a grand total of 4 carries on 3rd downs this year.

Lev Vyvanse
12-28-2010, 12:03 AM
Some of you guys don't know how to use the word "conspiracy." It's funny because you present yourself as intelligent, and then misuse such a simple word.

When a player sucks and gets kept on the sidelines, nobody is saying it's a "conspiracy." Please stop using this word to describe player evaluations. You sound like jr. high school kids who learned a new vocabulary word and trying to force it into conversations where it doesn't fit.

This post is just ad hominem and hyperbole.
If I see those words again on this board i'm going to puke.

Taco John
12-28-2010, 12:21 AM
This post is just ad hominem and hyperbole.
If I see those words again on this board i'm going to puke.

Not any moreso than tossing around the word "conspiracy." Everyone on the Internet knows that people use the word "conspiracy" to implicate someone they disagree with as a "tin foil hat wearer." There are actual stats and facts that we can use to build a position. Throwing the word "conspiracy" is like the Godwin's law of football discussion. Why even go there?

Cito Pelon
12-28-2010, 12:46 AM
Eh, Moreno is a decent back. I had high hopes for the guy, but he can't spring it when he gets one on one with a safety. He's had about 50 opportunities where he had only a safety to beat and he's been tackled every time.

Spider
12-28-2010, 12:48 AM
LMAO ........ all this Bull**** over Noshow Moreno ................Kinda like telling everyone on a city bus , yeah my 20 K ,Buick was a great buy , even though it is in the shop alot ...but when it is running look out .........

TonyR
12-28-2010, 06:26 AM
It's funny because you present yourself as intelligent...

You sound like jr. high school kids...

LOL Seriously, could you possibly be more arrogant? A little overly impressed with ourselves, aren't we? Let me guess, we should expect to see this borrowed in the Denver Post, right? Because they know you're better than them and they need to borrow your material? Go continue your pining for the return of Gary Kubiak which at least is a little less embarrassing than watching you try to critique someone's vocabulary.

TonyR
12-28-2010, 06:32 AM
This post is just ad hominem and hyperbole.
If I see those words again on this board i'm going to puke.

I don't know what inspired that nonsensical rant. All the garbage and ignorance spewed on this forum and he's going to get all excited about someone's use of the word "conspiracy"? I guess that was easier than responding to the actual point of my post which was that Moreno is the starter, not 3rd string back up.

CEH
12-28-2010, 06:36 AM
LMAO ........ all this Bull**** over Noshow Moreno ................Kinda like telling everyone on a city bus , yeah my 20 K ,Buick was a great buy , even though it is in the shop alot ...but when it is running look out .........

I agree. Silly argument. Teams don't care about potential. The bus stop is full of potential. What we need is a production . This is a do good league not a try hard , limp off and maybe do better next year league

Next year he'll get injured his second day in TC instead of his first and ppl will call that an improvement

Likwid Kerruj
12-28-2010, 06:43 AM
For a team with a history of uncovering late round running backs, he's...not...worth...the...12th...pick...

Once Raji went, they should've traded down.

Mile High Shack
12-28-2010, 06:58 AM
Some of you guys don't know how to use the word "conspiracy." It's funny because you present yourself as intelligent, and then misuse such a simple word.

When a player sucks and gets kept on the sidelines, nobody is saying it's a "conspiracy." Please stop using this word to describe player evaluations. You sound like jr. high school kids who learned a new vocabulary word and trying to force it into conversations where it doesn't fit.

your post is a conspiracy
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/star4ucker/conspiracy.jpg

TheReverend
12-28-2010, 07:48 AM
Josh McDaniels seems to agree. Moreno had a grand total of 4 carries on 3rd downs this year.

zowie!

Is this true?

TonyR
12-28-2010, 09:00 AM
Is this true?

It is. 4 carries, 26 yards, 1 TD. The Broncos did a lot of passing on 3rd down.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=12516

Taco John
12-28-2010, 09:13 AM
I don't know what inspired that nonsensical rant. All the garbage and ignorance spewed on this forum and he's going to get all excited about someone's use of the word "conspiracy"? I guess that was easier than responding to the actual point of my post which was that Moreno is the starter, not 3rd string back up.


Your dumb use of the word "conspiracy" inspired that "rant." I thought that was obvious. Your actual point was bluster, and had very little substance. Moreno started the game, but he didn't finish it. The latest info is that he was healthy enough to finish it, but the coaches made the determination that Buckhalter and Ball gave us the best chance to win the game. They were apparently right.

Taco John
12-28-2010, 09:14 AM
zowie!

Is this true?

Completely true. Four total 3rd down carries.

The criticism of Moreno is completely justified, ya think?

Pony Boy
12-28-2010, 09:20 AM
Knowshon's inability to turn a corner before getting dragged down has nothing to do with anti-McDaniels bias. The guy is slow. Maybe it's injury. Maybe it's just that he's slow. Whatever the excuse, the problem is still the same: he's sloooooow.

You can't say he's slow, it's politically incorrect. The correct term is "he runs too long in the same place".

TonyR
12-28-2010, 09:26 AM
Your actual point was bluster, and had very little substance. Moreno started the game...

LOL My point was that Moreno was the starter, which you just stated yourself to be true! If anything was "bluster" with "very little substance" it was your unhinged overreaction to my use of the word "conspiracy". Why is that so important to you? Shouldn't you be using your energy talking about Peyton Hillis and the return of Gary Kubiak?

Pony Boy
12-28-2010, 09:28 AM
Moreno started the game so he's not "3rd behind" anyone. He got dinged early in the game and a decision was made to go with the other guys. Disappointing and frustrating? Yes. Some huge, dramatic conspiracy? No.

There's your trouble, "he got dinged and left the game".......

Baseball is a wuss sport and they still play when they get dinged.

Taco John
12-28-2010, 09:29 AM
I have a hunch Kubiak isn't going to get fired, so haven't been talking about that. But I'm certain he'd be at the top of Elway's list is he does get fired. We'll have years to talk about that should it go down.

Missouribronc
12-28-2010, 09:29 AM
It is. 4 carries, 26 yards, 1 TD. The Broncos did a lot of passing on 3rd down.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=12516

He averaged 6.5 YPR and had one touchdown in four carries on third down.

This says one of two things, and I think its the more likely a combination of B and C, and not A.

A.) Moreno is a beast on third down.

B.) McDaniels/Orton were both obsessed with passing on third down (I saw several times where it might have been a run in third and short, where Orton audibled, but clearly McDaniels called a lot of third down passes.)

C.) The Broncos were in a LOT of third and long situations this year.

With that said, I'm still a fan of Moreno and think he is a very good back. We'll see what he's like in a different system. But, because I was curious, I looked up where he ranked in yards from scrimmage over the course of the last two years. In the numbers I compiled, his 2,268 YFS was the 21st best in the league. A healthy Moreno, imho, goes well above the 1,108 YFS he's had this year.

TonyR
12-28-2010, 09:30 AM
There's your trouble, "he got dinged and left the game".......

How is that my trouble, exactly?

Taco John
12-28-2010, 09:34 AM
He averaged 6.5 YPR and had one touchdown in four carries on third down.



Those numbers don't provide a large enough statisical sample to derive anything from them at all except that Josh didn't like Moreno as a third down option.

Missouribronc
12-28-2010, 09:38 AM
Those numbers don't provide a large enough statisical sample to derive anything from them at all except that Josh didn't like Moreno as a third down option.

You're right. And it's probably more likely that he favored the pass over any rushing, not just because it was Moreno standing there, but because he favored the pass. And Denver was in third and long a lot.

Just curious, does anyone have Moreno's receiving numbers on third down?

Taco John
12-28-2010, 09:45 AM
You're right. And it's probably more likely that he favored the pass over any rushing, not just because it was Moreno standing there, but because he favored the pass. And Denver was in third and long a lot.

Just curious, does anyone have Moreno's receiving numbers on third down?


I had them earlier. I'm heading out the door, but as I recall he had 6 receptions on 3rd down.

Taco John
12-28-2010, 09:46 AM
7 receptions for 58 yards, 1TD

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=12516

Pony Boy
12-28-2010, 10:18 AM
How is that my trouble, exactly?

Went right over your head huh? I will aim lower next time ...

TonyR
12-28-2010, 11:52 AM
I will aim lower next time ...

If by "aim lower" you mean answering my question then yes, please do.

go_broncos
12-28-2010, 12:43 PM
Are we discussing about Moreno that keeps getting injured in all the games??
Well..I am amazed to see that we still have supporters for him..
Looks like some posters will keep supporting him till he gets cut or traded.
Moreno is not worth to take in 1st round. I would have been fine if we took him in late rounds(4th,5th).
Any way..pls continue posting some garbage to support him.
He will never be Hillis.

TonyR
12-28-2010, 12:46 PM
Well..I am amazed to see that we still have supporters for him..
Looks like some posters will keep supporting him till he gets cut or traded.


You're amazed that Broncos fans are supporting a Broncos player? What, should we be rooting for him to fail?

Missouribronc
12-28-2010, 12:48 PM
Are we discussing about Moreno that keeps getting injured in all the games??
Well..I am amazed to see that we still have supporters for him..
Looks like some posters will keep supporting him till he gets cut or traded.
Moreno is not worth to take in 1st round. I would have been fine if we took him in late rounds(4th,5th).
Any way..pls continue posting some garbage to support him.
He will never be Hillis.

Do you support anything on the current Broncos team? Anything. Throw us a bone.

Am I free to support any current Bronco on the roster?

Frankly, it doesn't really matter where he was drafted. He's on the team, and he's Top 20 in the league in amassing yards (ahead of Hillis) in the last two years, so I don't really understand why the team shouldn't use him.

Because he hasn't broken out for 1500 yards, we should just cut him. "****, he's not a first-round back, let somebody else have his 1100 yards of total offense. He should have got 1800 because he was drafted in the first round."

Gotta love that logic.

go_broncos
12-28-2010, 12:52 PM
You're amazed that Broncos fans are supporting a Broncos player? What, should we be rooting for him to fail?

I didn't support Mcd though he is our coach at that time.
I can clearly see how he was ruining the franchise.
Regarding Moreno, he is never an elite back. Accept it and move on.

I don't blindly support a player/coach as he was/is a bronco.
Do i support R.Quinn/A.smith/Cutler?..I won't.
Do i support Tebow?... I will.

Posters like you and Popps support the player and coach blindly.
It's sad that you don't have your own opinion.

If Bowlen hires Kubiak, Like Baja..i will question Bowlen about his state of mind.

go_broncos
12-28-2010, 12:55 PM
Do you support anything on the current Broncos team? Anything. Throw us a bone.

Am I free to support any current Bronco on the roster?

Frankly, it doesn't really matter where he was drafted. He's on the team, and he's Top 20 in the league in amassing yards (ahead of Hillis) in the last two years, so I don't really understand why the team shouldn't use him.

Because he hasn't broken out for 1500 yards, we should just cut him. "****, he's not a first-round back, let somebody else have his 1100 yards of total offense. He should have got 1800 because he was drafted in the first round."

Gotta love that logic.

LOL

How many chances did Mcd gave to Hillis last year???
Let me know when Moreno completes 1000 yards/season.
I can bet that he will never have 1000 yards rushing/season in his entire career.

TonyR
12-28-2010, 12:55 PM
Frankly, it doesn't really matter where he was drafted. He's on the team...

Yup. Moreno hasn't lived up to expectations, will never be worth his draft position, has had trouble staying healthy, and has that Hillis cloud hanging over him. So I share and understand the frustration and disappointment. But I don't know why many people go so far out of the way to hate on the guy. When he's been healthy and had decent blocking he's been very effective. Personally I'm rooting for him to get and stay healthy rather than complaining about how much better off we'd be with Hillis.

TonyR
12-28-2010, 12:58 PM
...Regarding Moreno, he is never an elite back. Accept it and move on.

I don't blindly support a player/coach as he was/is a bronco.


To your first quoted point, I have accepted that he will never be an elite back.

To your second quoted point, just because he will never be worth his draft position why would you not support him? How does it not make sense to support a player on the team you root for?

go_broncos
12-28-2010, 01:07 PM
To your first quoted point, I have accepted that he will never be an elite back.

To your second quoted point, just because he will never be worth his draft position why would you not support him? How does it not make sense to support a player on the team you root for?

I don't support those kind of players. I would rather support a player that have less talent and plays through injuries.
You can still continue cheering for him.
But, don't say that he is a good back...

Taco John
12-28-2010, 01:07 PM
I think Moreno could still have a positive contribution to this team. But I think it's clear that we should probably look for another runner or two who might be able to either push him or surpass him as the "feature" back.

Missouribronc
12-28-2010, 01:36 PM
But, don't say that he is a good back...

There are only about 15 human beings on the planet better at being an NFL running back than him.

I'll reserve my hate for something that actually deserves hate.

broncosteven
12-28-2010, 01:42 PM
Moreno started the game so he's not "3rd behind" anyone. He got dinged early in the game and a decision was made to go with the other guys. Disappointing and frustrating? Yes. Some huge, dramatic conspiracy? No.

Would it make you feel better if I used the word "benched" instead of "3rd"?

Inkana7
12-28-2010, 02:39 PM
Would it make you feel better if I used the word "benched" instead of "3rd"?

Considering both are false, probably not.

Hamrob
12-28-2010, 04:52 PM
Moreno is boring. Enough said. We happen to have 2 1st round busts (RB's) on our current roster. Time to move on. I actually like Ball better than Moreno. I think he actually provides more spark than does Moreno.

Jesterhole
12-29-2010, 05:06 AM
http://www.kffl.com/gnews.php?id=689024-broncos-knowshon-moreno-could-have-returned-week-16

Studesville said (Linsey Jones per KFFL) that Knowshon "could have returned to the team's Week 16 game after injuring his rib but RB Correll Buckhalter played well in Moreno's absence".

So.....why is the RB Coach/hc not playing Moreno when he can be played? I like Moreno, but the guy is playing/not playing is way off the starting team.

This point wins. Dude in the best position to know didn't want Moreno back in there. He's a soft, slow, injury prone back who can't break tackles in the NFL. Like Reggie Bush, but without the moves or speed...

TonyR
12-29-2010, 05:08 AM
This point wins.

Hmm, I don't know. He'd been coaching Moreno all year and started him in the game. So don't you think maybe the reason he didn't put him back in has something to do with the injury?

Missouribronc
12-29-2010, 05:56 AM
Hmm, I don't know. He'd been coaching Moreno all year and started him in the game. So don't you think maybe the reason he didn't put him back in has something to do with the injury?

No.

Because that doesn't fit into the pre-determined "Moreno is a bust" conclusion.

Kaylore
12-29-2010, 06:08 AM
I've been quiet about Moreno. Not because I love him or hate him but because I wasn't sure. I think I am now. Initially I saw him as a Curtis Martin type where he does a lot of little things well but isn't particularly explosive in any one area. Unfortunately he's not been able to stay on the field enough.

Moreno is the textbook definition of wasted movement. When he runs, his entire body gyrates almost hysterically. From the jazz hands to his jiggly hips. He has below average surge and dances around too much. I suppose his constant dancing around worked in college, but not in the pros. He's also proven to be incredibly fragile. Just one of those things.

He does have good hands, is smart and can block well and will give you a good game now and again. He's a decent back, but I don't believe he'll ever be a really good one. Hope I'm wrong.

Jesterhole
12-29-2010, 09:03 AM
No.

Because that doesn't fit into the pre-determined "Moreno is a bust" conclusion.

Predetermined conclusion? Dude has had two years and made next to no impact. Much like Ayers. If he had been a late 3rd or 4th round pick, I'd be OK, but he was the 12th pick, when this team desperately needed defensive help. That is a busted pick.

Missouribronc
12-29-2010, 09:08 AM
Predetermined conclusion? Dude has had two years and made next to no impact. Much like Ayers. If he had been a late 3rd or 4th round pick, I'd be OK, but he was the 12th pick, when this team desperately needed defensive help. That is a busted pick.

Over 2,200 yards from scrimmage and 17 touchdowns is "no impact?"

If that to you, is "no impact," then yes, I believe that you have a pre-determined conclusion.

Has he been everything a team could hope for out of a first-round running back? No. But he's been ok. And, I personally am going to hope he can break out in his third season, and I am going to hope he stays healthy.

TheReverend
12-29-2010, 09:13 AM
Over 2,200 yards from scrimmage and 17 touchdowns is "no impact?"

If that to you, is "no impact," then yes, I believe that you have a pre-determined conclusion.

Has he been everything a team could hope for out of a first-round running back? No. But he's been ok. And, I personally am going to hope he can break out in his third season, and I am going to hope he stays healthy.

If that had been in one season's time, no one would argue.

...but it's not...

:nono:

Missouribronc
12-29-2010, 09:40 AM
If that had been in one season's time, no one would argue.

...but it's not...

:nono:

So, four players in the last five seasons have gone over 2,000 yards from scrimmage in a season, and because Moreno isn't one of them, he's a bust and a terrible player.

Yeah. That makes sense.

Hamrob
12-29-2010, 09:41 AM
Over 2,200 yards from scrimmage and 17 touchdowns is "no impact?"

If that to you, is "no impact," then yes, I believe that you have a pre-determined conclusion.

Has he been everything a team could hope for out of a first-round running back? No. But he's been ok. And, I personally am going to hope he can break out in his third season, and I am going to hope he stays healthy.Where your story goes south, is right here:

An undrafted RB could have gotten 2200yds
A 2nd/3rd round RB could have had 2800+yds

Of course, he's going to have some production...because he's the one getting the carries. Our running game is toast and he's been the primary runner.

Now, here's the stat...that really stands out:

2009 - 2 carries for more than 20yds
2010 - 2 carries for more than 20yds

That's pathetic! We spend the #12 pick in the draft on the kid...and that's the type of talent we get. Youch.

Knowshon Moreno is a BUST! He's an average back (4yds/carry)...mostly on 1st/2nd down. But, he rarely ever make plays. He's fine to keep in the stable...since we invested so much in him...but, he's not a starter in the NFL.

go_broncos
12-29-2010, 09:44 AM
So, four players in the last five seasons have gone over 2,000 yards from scrimmage in a season, and because Moreno isn't one of them, he's a bust and a terrible player.

Yeah. That makes sense.

Quit defending losers..

bronco militia
12-29-2010, 09:47 AM
I've been quiet about Moreno. Not because I love him or hate him but because I wasn't sure. I think I am now. Initially I saw him as a Curtis Martin type where he does a lot of little things well but isn't particularly explosive in any one area. Unfortunately he's not been able to stay on the field enough.

Moreno is the textbook definition of wasted movement. When he runs, his entire body gyrates almost hysterically. From the jazz hands to his jiggly hips. He has below average surge and dances around too much. I suppose his constant dancing around worked in college, but not in the pros. He's also proven to be incredibly fragile. Just one of those things.

He does have good hands, is smart and can block well and will give you a good game now and again. He's a decent back, but I don't believe he'll ever be a really good one. Hope I'm wrong.

there you go

razorwire77
12-29-2010, 10:03 AM
I think that it's pretty clear because of durability concerns, ability concerns or both, that Moreno needs to paired with another back. Tebow is going to be the most effective in an offense that can pound the ball and allow him to kill teams off of play action (e.g. Pittsburgh with Roth). I'm becoming more and more comfortable with the idea of using our high 3rd to take a complementary back. Of course this is after we draft Jumbo Champ, and a couple of front 7 players with the 2nd rounders. Lots of backs that might slip into the 3rd round. I like Kendall Hunter a lot.

TheReverend
12-29-2010, 10:09 AM
So, four players in the last five seasons have gone over 2,000 yards from scrimmage in a season, and because Moreno isn't one of them, he's a bust and a terrible player.

Yeah. That makes sense.

lolwut?

Not counting 2005 and counting 2010 as a full (06-Now) and also not counting any players twice since that may have been part of your poorly worded (and blatantly false) argument:

CJ 2009 2509 yards
S Jackson 2006 2,334 yards
LT 2006 2323 yards
LJ 2006 2199 yards
Gore 2006 2180 yards
Barber 2006 2127 yards
Westbrook 2007 2104 yards
Ray Rice 2009 2041 yards
Arian Foster 2010 2030 yards

....with potential for Jamaal Charles to make it an even 10 this weekend if KC even bothers playing him.

Nice try, kiddo.

Missouribronc
12-29-2010, 11:05 AM
lolwut?

Not counting 2005 and counting 2010 as a full (06-Now) and also not counting any players twice since that may have been part of your poorly worded (and blatantly false) argument:

CJ 2009 2509 yards
S Jackson 2006 2,334 yards
LT 2006 2323 yards
LJ 2006 2199 yards
Gore 2006 2180 yards
Barber 2006 2127 yards
Westbrook 2007 2104 yards
Ray Rice 2009 2041 yards
Arian Foster 2010 2030 yards

....with potential for Jamaal Charles to make it an even 10 this weekend if KC even bothers playing him.

Nice try, kiddo.

OK. I counted the last four years, I thought I had counted five. My bad.

The point still stands. About 1-2 players, on average, go over 2,000 yards all purpose in one year. So what if Moreno isn't one of them. It's stupid to say he isn't a productive player (Or as one poster as said, a "loser").

TheReverend
12-29-2010, 11:25 AM
OK. I counted the last four years, I thought I had counted five. My bad.

The point still stands. About 1-2 players, on average, go over 2,000 yards all purpose in one year. So what if Moreno isn't one of them. It's stupid to say he isn't a productive player (Or as one poster as said, a "loser").

Stupid or incredibly accurate?

I'm neither calling him a bust or a bad player, and quite frankly, I still really like his skill set. Unproductive, however, is EXTREMELY accurate.

Missouribronc
12-29-2010, 11:36 AM
Stupid or incredibly accurate?

I'm neither calling him a bust or a bad player, and quite frankly, I still really like his skill set. Unproductive, however, is EXTREMELY accurate.

At what point does an NFL player become "productive" in your opinion?

Because with this assessment, we're down to less than 20 NFL skill players who are productive.

Taco John
12-29-2010, 11:42 AM
Quit defending losers..


More people should put you on ignore than do.

go_broncos
12-29-2010, 11:55 AM
More people should put you on ignore than do.

no one is stopping them.

TheReverend
12-29-2010, 12:04 PM
At what point does an NFL player become "productive" in your opinion?

Because with this assessment, we're down to less than 20 NFL skill players who are productive.

Well we certainly can't use stats to call Knowshon productive, can we?

2 career 100 yard rushing games in two years (both against KC, btw).

A career 4.0 yards per carry.

0 1000 yard seasons as a single back in an era of the "Two Headed Monster".

And worse than all, he has a propensity to be on the sideline when his team needs him.

So, I think the better the question is, "How can you call that productive by any measure?"

Taco John
12-29-2010, 12:08 PM
no one is stopping them.

You're damn right about that.

go_broncos
12-29-2010, 12:09 PM
You're damn right about that.

I am always right..

Taco John
12-29-2010, 12:11 PM
Well we certainly can't use stats to call Knowshon productive, can we?

2 career 100 yard rushing games in two years (both against KC, btw).

A career 4.0 yards per carry.

0 1000 yard seasons as a single back in an era of the "Two Headed Monster".

And worse than all, he has a propensity to be on the sideline when his team needs him.

So, I think the better the question is, "How can you call that productive by any measure?"


By using the word "when" as a magic wand.

"But he's productive WHEN he's on the field."

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/9651/magicwand.jpg

TheReverend
12-29-2010, 12:18 PM
By using the word "when" as a magic wand.

"But he's productive WHEN he's on the field."

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/9651/magicwand.jpg

That's still not really true. He's BEEN productive about five times in almost 30 games...

Missouribronc
12-29-2010, 12:35 PM
Well we certainly can't use stats to call Knowshon productive, can we?

2 career 100 yard rushing games in two years (both against KC, btw).

A career 4.0 yards per carry.

0 1000 yard seasons as a single back in an era of the "Two Headed Monster".

And worse than all, he has a propensity to be on the sideline when his team needs him.

So, I think the better the question is, "How can you call that productive by any measure?"

I thought 4 yards per carry was a decent average. I guess I will re-evaluate that opinion.

In the system Denver was running, he wasn't going to go for 100 on the ground a lot. It just wasn't the system. People have to quit thinking this is the Shanahan system. It wasn't/isn't (it doesn't matter - there will be a new one next year). Now, we'll see what he does in a different system. That is why yards from scrimmage is an important stat, because its the type of system he was playing in. Not a popular thought amongst Broncos fans, but it's the truth. Patriots running backs have two 100-yard rushing games this season. It's the way the system is built.

The "two-headed monster" comment goes against your basic argument. Less carries, less yards. Broncos running backs were responsible for 184 yards and two touchdowns on Sunday. I'd say that was a pretty productive day. I, personally, don't care where either back was drafted in that scenario, I'd like to see that every week.

TheReverend
12-29-2010, 02:13 PM
I thought 4 yards per carry was a decent average. I guess I will re-evaluate that opinion.

You seriously thought 4 yards a carry was a decent average?

In the system Denver was running, he wasn't going to go for 100 on the ground a lot. It just wasn't the system. People have to quit thinking this is the Shanahan system. It wasn't/isn't (it doesn't matter - there will be a new one next year). Now, we'll see what he does in a different system. That is why yards from scrimmage is an important stat, because its the type of system he was playing in. Not a popular thought amongst Broncos fans, but it's the truth. Patriots running backs have two 100-yard rushing games this season. It's the way the system is built.

Uhhhh... the Patriots have the 11th rushing attack in the league and rushing for over a half yard a carry more on average... we have the 28th rushing attack and we're the ones that invested 12 overall into it.

The "two-headed monster" comment goes against your basic argument. Less carries, less yards. Broncos running backs were responsible for 184 yards and two touchdowns on Sunday. I'd say that was a pretty productive day. I, personally, don't care where either back was drafted in that scenario, I'd like to see that every week.

If the point you're trying to make is our RB production was greatly increased once Knowshon and his 2.7 ypc was placed firmly on the sideline while Tebow (in his 2nd ever NFL game) only had No Knees Buckhalter and Lance Ball to fall back on and got WAY more production from them, then I fully agree.

Missouribronc
12-29-2010, 02:23 PM
Uhhhh... the Patriots have the 11th rushing attack in the league and rushing for over a half yard a carry more on average... we have the 28th rushing attack and we're the ones that invested 12 overall into it.

Yet their running backs don't go over 100 yards...

We ran the same system this season. Backs don't go over 100 yards a game in it, but it can be effective. That's just how it is. I'm sure the scheme next year will be different.

If the point you're trying to make is our RB production was greatly increased once Knowshon and his 2.7 ypc was placed firmly on the sideline while Tebow (in his 2nd ever NFL game) only had No Knees Buckhalter and Lance Ball to fall back on and got WAY more production from them, then I fully agree.

You said it was the time for the "two-headed monster" and used that as a reason why Moreno is no good. Well, I personally don't give a **** who the three running backs are as long as they do that. And I really don't care where they were drafted at this point. That was two years ago. He's now on the team and has been productive when healthy this season. I hope he can stay healthy. Jettisoning him for the sole fact that he hasn't "lived up to what a first-round back should do" (which you could argue against, anyway), frankly, would be kind of stupid, which it seems some want to do (though the poster who's post I'm responding to didn't suggest that).

Missouribronc
12-29-2010, 02:26 PM
Moreno is very similar to Jonathan Stewart in production, in his first year, and then in an injury-riddled year (like both have had this year). I bet if you asked GMs if they'd want Jonathan Stewart on their team, they'd probably say yes. I'm hoping that Moreno has a season like Stewart had last year in him. The signs are there, imo.

TheReverend
12-29-2010, 03:31 PM
Yet their running backs don't go over 100 yards...

We ran the same system this season. Backs don't go over 100 yards a game in it, but it can be effective. That's just how it is. I'm sure the scheme next year will be different.

Not at all...

We ran much more of a lone back than NE did...

Even then BenJarvus has just as many 100 yard rushing games as Moreno in less starts and a higher ypc average.

You said it was the time for the "two-headed monster" and used that as a reason why Moreno is no good. Well, I personally don't give a **** who the three running backs are as long as they do that. And I really don't care where they were drafted at this point. That was two years ago. He's now on the team and has been productive when healthy this season. I hope he can stay healthy. Jettisoning him for the sole fact that he hasn't "lived up to what a first-round back should do" (which you could argue against, anyway), frankly, would be kind of stupid, which it seems some want to do (though the poster who's post I'm responding to didn't suggest that).

I see your parenthesis providing a disclaimer that this isn't response to me, but why are you making up arguments? Who in god's name is calling for him to be "jettisoned"? Is this the fantasy argument you have to make up to avoid noticing that his lack of production is smacking you in the face?

Requiem
12-29-2010, 05:14 PM
2,268 yards from scrimmage in 28 games as a professional, 21 starts.

81 YPG based on his total games. 108 YPG based on his starts.

17 touchdowns.

Since he was drafted #12, people expect him to be putting up all-world numbers. They aren't all world, but those are not bad numbers, regardless of where he is selected. Regarding touchdowns/scores, he has been one of the biggest performers on offense in that regard over these past two years.

Why even bring up the team comparisons? I'm fairly certain it is safe to stay that New England has a much better run blocking line (this season) than the Broncos and that would help with their overall rushing attack. Hell, there are a myriad of factors that could go in to that analysis, but why even bother? If people want to use non-sequiturs, more power to them.

I don't have a problem with him putting up 1,100 yards offense this year while missing four full games and going out early in two others. When you think about it, that is actually tremendous production based on how much he has seen the field. There is no doubt that Moreno needs to stay healthy. His nagging injuries are a concern, and hopefully he will not have that problem next year.

Should he be able to improve? Yes. Will he produce better with more cohesiveness and competency from our offensive line? Hopefully.

He isn't a problem, he just isn't an all-world player. He isn't bad, he isn't great, he is just a good football player. A 4.2 YPC average with this line blocking actually isn't that bad. In reality, a 4.2 YPC average isn't bad, regardless of line performance.

I hope that with a new coach, new scheme and some good health Moreno will be able to be a bigger factor next year. I also would like to see us get another back to pair him with.

oubronco
12-29-2010, 05:24 PM
http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2010/1229/20101229__broncos_kmoreno~p1_300.jpg (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16966151)

strafen
12-29-2010, 05:42 PM
Numbers, stats are all important when it comes to evaluating the performance of a RB.
Moreno was a 12th overall pick. While his production numbers don't impress anyone, he never showed signs of being an impact player.
And please, don't give me that excuse that when the OL was healthy Moreno produced.
Yeah, to a certain degree that's true, but...he's still NOT an impact player...

Requiem
12-29-2010, 05:43 PM
The strafen guy sure knows how to bring a great argument to the table.

strafen
12-29-2010, 05:49 PM
The strafen guy sure knows how to bring a great argument to the table.Yet, you're referring to Moreno for being a 12th overall selection as: "He isn't bad, he isn't great, he is just a good football player."
That description fits better on some middle round RB selection.
Look, it's time to call it like it is. We dropped the ball with the Moreno selection...

Requiem
12-29-2010, 07:35 PM
No, we really didn't.

Taco John
12-29-2010, 07:56 PM
We don't have a single third down back on our roster. Truth be told, this is what I'm most frustrated with Moreno on. If I believed he'd be a good third down back when he was able to actually play, I'd be a lot more willing to coddle him and hope for better days beyond these injuries. But when you have a #12 pick on your roster, and you hand the ball to him 4 times total on third downs over a whole season, it's pretty easy to get disillusioned.

Dagmar
12-29-2010, 08:30 PM
We don't have a single third down back on our roster. Truth be told, this is what I'm most frustrated with Moreno on. If I believed he'd be a good third down back when he was able to actually play, I'd be a lot more willing to coddle him and hope for better days beyond these injuries. But when you have a #12 pick on your roster, and you hand the ball to him 4 times total on third downs over a whole season, it's pretty easy to get disillusioned.

Running back Knowshon Moreno ranks fourth in Bronco history with 17 touchdowns in his first two seasons with the club with that total tied for second among NFL players who entered the league in 2009. He also is the fifth player in franchise history to total 1,000 yards from scrimmage in each of his first two NFL seasons.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs792.ash1/168251_10150106915704002_153515339001_7224349_7118 829_n.jpg

Missouribronc
12-29-2010, 08:34 PM
The utter lack of intelligent perspective of Broncos fans continues to amaze me. I once though this fan base was intelligent.

We have a Top 20 running back and idiot fans want him jettisoned because he was A.) Drafted by a coach they illogically hate and ran out of town, and B.) Isn't a Top 2 back.

Missouribronc
12-29-2010, 08:36 PM
Quit defending players who suck Dagmar. Everyone knows Moreno is the worst running back ever drafted in the first round.

Requiem
12-29-2010, 08:41 PM
http://sportsmed.starwave.com/i/magazine/new/ki_jana_carter.jpg

Dagmar
12-29-2010, 08:44 PM
The utter lack of intelligent perspective of Broncos fans continues to amaze me. I once though this fan base was intelligent.

We have a Top 20 running back and idiot fans want him jettisoned because he was A.) Drafted by a coach they illogically hate and ran out of town, and B.) Isn't a Top 2 back.

Peyton Hillis is your answer. Moreno with the same numbers with Hillis in the backfield would be accepted.

To quote our leader...

I will always HATE Josh McDaniels with the fire of ten thousands suns for not letting us find out. What's with this guy? Two seasons in a row he failed to give a guy playing time who would have made -- MADE him. If that little dweeb had Tebow and Orton on his team, he'd have launched himself a hall of fame career maybe with an offensive mark on the game to rival Bill Walsh.
Talk about not being able to see the forest through the trees.

It has nothing to do with Moreno and everything to do with HATE.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-29-2010, 08:45 PM
The utter lack of intelligent perspective of Broncos fans continues to amaze me. I once though this fan base was intelligent.

We have a Top 20 running back and idiot fans want him jettisoned because he was A.) Drafted by a coach they illogically hate and ran out of town, and B.) Isn't a Top 2 back.

The intelligent fans must be the guys who illogically love a coach that failed to the point of termination in 1.75 seasons. It must be lonely, being so smart.

Missouribronc
12-29-2010, 08:48 PM
The intelligent fans must be the guys who illogically love a coach that failed to the point of termination in 1.75 seasons. It must be lonely, being so smart.

So, you're all for running Moreno out of town, too?

Just as stupid as the rest of them...

Dagmar
12-29-2010, 08:51 PM
The intelligent fans must be the guys who illogically love a coach that failed to the point of termination in 1.75 seasons. It must be lonely, being so smart.

This discussion isn't about McDaniels, perhaps if you could see past that you would be able to see Moreno isn't a bad player.

I loved McDaniels. I thought he was smart, he got rid of Cutler who I disliked cheering for, he got rid of Marshall for 2 2nd round picks and replaced him with Lloyd for buttons.

I followed the Hillis trade in blind faith, and when he started having his amazing season I realized he'd made a mistake. McD started this season well, I was at the Jets game that we lost in a heartbreaker. But from the moment we were shellshocked against the Raiders in the 1st 5 minutes, it went to hell, and at the moment of spygate II I was not bothered if he left.

My thought was if he left we could unite as fans. However, those same people who you like to mock, mercilessly, moved on. I wish you could too.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-29-2010, 09:07 PM
So, you're all for running Moreno out of town, too?

Just as stupid as the rest of them...

You are so smart that you can put words in my mouth that I never said. Are you a wizard?

Dr. Broncenstein
12-29-2010, 09:13 PM
This discussion isn't about McDaniels, perhaps if you could see past that you would be able to see Moreno isn't a bad player.

I loved McDaniels. I thought he was smart, he got rid of Cutler who I disliked cheering for, he got rid of Marshall for 2 2nd round picks and replaced him with Lloyd for buttons.

I followed the Hillis trade in blind faith, and when he started having his amazing season I realized he'd made a mistake. McD started this season well, I was at the Jets game that we lost in a heartbreaker. But from the moment we were shellshocked against the Raiders in the 1st 5 minutes, it went to hell, and at the moment of spygate II I was not bothered if he left.

My thought was if he left we could unite as fans. However, those same people who you like to mock, mercilessly, moved on. I wish you could too.

Maybe you should check out the post that called everyone stupid for "illogically hating" McDaniels. Then redirect your pointless anger. And for the record, I don't hate Moreno. He's actually fairly exciting on the rare occasion that he is healthy.

Taco John
12-29-2010, 09:43 PM
The utter lack of intelligent perspective of Broncos fans continues to amaze me. I once though this fan base was intelligent.

We have a Top 20 running back and idiot fans want him jettisoned because he was A.) Drafted by a coach they illogically hate and ran out of town, and B.) Isn't a Top 2 back.


This is a false perspective. There are very few people that I've seen who think we should jettison Moreno. I can maybe think of one single person who would say that.

I think most people critical of Knowshon think that we should bring in someone who Knowshon can spell on second downs, and maybe get some work on third down packages.

Kaylore
12-30-2010, 05:20 AM
This is a false perspective. There are very few people that I've seen who think we should jettison Moreno. I can maybe think of one single person who would say that.

I think most people critical of Knowshon think that we should bring in someone who Knowshon can spell on second downs, and maybe get some work on third down packages.

Well.....I don't know. I like how Ball is looking and maybe Buck is showing signs that he's back. I guess if Buckhalter is done, then we should bring someone in, however we have Moreno, Buckhalter, Ball, Maroney and then LenDale White comes back from injury (this is assuming he isn't 400 lbs). I don't know we need to go nuts finding another guy, especially if the rest of the group shows signs of life. There is enough there and too many holes elsewhere to warrant making RB even a new priority.

As always, though, I would still take one if he's BPA by a fair amount.

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 05:28 AM
Well.....I don't know. I like how Ball is looking and maybe Buck is showing signs that he's back. I guess if Buckhalter is done, then we should bring someone in, however we have Moreno, Buckhalter, Ball, Maroney and then LenDale White comes back from injury (this is assuming he isn't 400 lbs). I don't know we need to go nuts finding another guy, especially if the rest of the group shows signs of life. There is enough there and too many holes elsewhere to warrant making RB even a new priority.

As always, though, I would still take one if he's BPA by a fair amount.

What if you could sign Deangelo Williams to add speed to the position? He'll probably be too expensive but with Stewart playing well in a rebuilding Carolina, Deangelo will see the open market.

Other potential FA options (pending teams resigning):

Jamaal Charles (havent heard of an extension, but definitely slim chance in hell he's available)
Michael Bush
Addai
Ronnie Brown
Tim Hightower
Sproles (Would be a nice addition to a slow/old backfield)

Requiem
12-30-2010, 05:38 AM
Nagging a guy because of injuries to only advocate the signing of several players with significant injuries recently or a documented injury history. Blissful.

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 05:40 AM
Nagging a guy because of injuries to only advocate the signing of several players with significant injuries recently or a documented injury history. Blissful.

That's by definition a "contingency plan" that I've been talking about... Blissful.

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK THOUGH!

Kaylore
12-30-2010, 05:42 AM
What if you could sign Deangelo Williams to add speed to the position? He'll probably be too expensive but with Stewart playing well in a rebuilding Carolina, Deangelo will see the open market.

Other potential FA options (pending teams resigning):

Jamaal Charles (havent heard of an extension, but definitely slim chance in hell he's available)
Michael Bush
Addai
Ronnie Brown
Tim Hightower
Sproles (Would be a nice addition to a slow/old backfield)

Of that group I like Addai, Brown and Sproles. Hightower and Bush if White isn't coming back. I do agree that we need some big play speed at the position. I like having a bunch of grinders, but we need someone who can go the distance as well. We've had a few games that would have been TD's if the backs were faster.

Missouribronc
12-30-2010, 05:43 AM
Jamaal Charles (havent heard of an extension, but definitely slim chance in hell he's available)


He got it mid season.

As far as the rest of your post...what Req said.

Missouribronc
12-30-2010, 05:47 AM
This is a false perspective. There are very few people that I've seen who think we should jettison Moreno. I can maybe think of one single person who would say that.

I think most people critical of Knowshon think that we should bring in someone who Knowshon can spell on second downs, and maybe get some work on third down packages.

These are comments of people ready to call him a bust and the next logical step is to bench him, or cut him, or try to trade him and bring in someone "better"

We happen to have 2 1st round busts (RB's) on our current roster. Time to move on. I actually like Ball better than Moreno. I think he actually provides more spark than does Moreno.

That is a busted pick.

Knowshon Moreno is a BUST! He's an average back (4yds/carry)...mostly on 1st/2nd down. But, he rarely ever make plays. He's fine to keep in the stable...since we invested so much in him...but, he's not a starter in the NFL.

I don't support those kind of players. I would rather support a player that have less talent and plays through injuries.
You can still continue cheering for him.
But, don't say that he is a good back...

Look, it's time to call it like it is. We dropped the ball with the Moreno selection...

Requiem
12-30-2010, 05:47 AM
That's by definition a "contingency plan" that I've been talking about... Blissful.

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK THOUGH!

A contingency plan would be better served with backs who don't have a penchant for missing time on the field due to injuries. At any case, those guys listed wouldn't come cheap either. Guess it depends on the market, but I don't think the team is going to be interested in putting top dollar out on a RB in FA.

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 05:48 AM
He got it mid season.

As far as the rest of your post...what Req said.

This is because you guys are stupid. No one is calling him bad (that I've read, at least), or saying to cut him, or saying to replace him. All I've said, and what I've seen, is that he's been unproductive and unreliable. Both of which are hard facts.

Quit being so sensitive and talk football or just go back to whacking off over your Knowshon poster together.

Of that group I like Addai, Brown and Sproles. Hightower and Bush if White isn't coming back. I do agree that we need some big play speed at the position. I like having a bunch of grinders, but we need someone who can go the distance as well. We've had a few games that would have been TD's if the backs were faster.

I've never been big on Ronnie Brown. I feel like he's only been productive in gimmick situations. The same could surely be said about Sproles with his speed/need to play in space "gimmick", but I think that's one that would absolutely compliment our backfield. I wouldn't even mind a Mewelde Moore, for that reason.

TheReverend
12-30-2010, 05:51 AM
A contingency plan would be better served with backs who don't have a penchant for missing time on the field due to injuries. At any case, those guys listed wouldn't come cheap either. Guess it depends on the market, but I don't think the team is going to be interested in putting top dollar out on a RB in FA.

Because currently our backups Buckhalter and White have no history of missing time? Hilarious!

Besides the point. I agree that those guys SHOULDN'T come cheap... but there's also a pretty big overflow of FA RBs this season in a year where owners are going to put the smack down on players salaries and at a position where teams simply don't like backs on a 2nd contract.

Several will go for an extremely reasonable price. I doubt Deangelo would be one of him, but if he did, it sure would be nice considering his skill set would be a fantastic compliment to Moreno's, imo.

Requiem
12-30-2010, 05:55 AM
This is because you guys are stupid.

Coming from the guy whose contingency plan for an "unproductive and unreliable" running back is to bring in players who have been unreliable due to injury and in many cases, unproductive. BRILLIANT.

All I've said, and what I've seen, is that he's been unproductive and unreliable. Both of which are hard facts.

1,100 YPS a year and an average of 8.5 touchdowns is hardly unproductive. Quite good considering the amount of starts and the four games he missed completely due to injury, and the two others (last two) after going out in the first half. I'm all for getting another back to go with him (been saying that all season) -- but are you seriously advocating that his running mate be someone who has the same kind of problems (healthy wise, and then some) he has?

Doesn't sound like you thought this through.

Mewelde Moore would be a terrific third down option here. I'd go with that.

Requiem
12-30-2010, 05:58 AM
Because currently our backups Buckhalter and White have no history of missing time? Hilarious!

They definitely have, which is why we are better suited to look for backs who do not have durability issues, and a good portion of those you listed are currently injured or through their careers have missed some good time due to injury. If we could get any of those players for a decent salary for the reasons your proposed, more power to us, but I just don't see it happening.

I guess I would prefer getting someone with some pop in the draft if we could acquire an extra third round pick, or perhaps even recoup our fourth. This isn't a particularly strong class, but there are some players that could give us what Moreno and the others haven't been able to provide us on a constant basis, especially in the speed department. (Haven't seen Buckhalter look that quick and shifty in a LONG time. Must have been his last punch to the well.)

Missouribronc
12-30-2010, 05:58 AM
I think it would be more plausible for Denver to spend a third or fourth round pick on a young player that has the skills set to complement what we have, which is Moreno as the "feature" back, or "every-down" back, with a speed player. I don't have a problem bringing in some speed. I don't like the idea of bringing in a lot of guys who have injury problems in the past. We've already got three of them signed.