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Requiem
12-25-2010, 05:35 PM
According to Yahoo (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=nfp-20101225_broncos_inclined_to_trade_orton_rather_th an_keep_him) & the NFP, citing RavensInsider, the Broncos will be inclined to trade Orton this off-season and keep Tim Tebow. Question is, what kind of market will their be for Orton and what value can we get in return for him?

If you're the Broncos GM, what is the least you would consider for his services?

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
12-25-2010, 05:52 PM
A decent QB should be worth 2-3 players (picks and veterns) stright up. For Orton I'd take a 2nd, 5th and a back-up LB vet with 6-7 years on him.

NASurfer
12-25-2010, 06:07 PM
I'm not a hater by any means and there have been instances where I've been pleasantly surprised by Orton but I honestly think it's not going to be high.

Let's see you're a GM for another team and you've got a franchise desperate for a franchise QB but is apparently so willing to unload a 28 year old QB coming off a statistically nice year. Why wasn't he the answer there?

Kitna went over 4,000 yards a couple of times, I don't really see many fans out there clamoring that he never got a shot to be a franchise QB. There definitely was a difference in play calling when Carson Palmer stepped in (to be fair Palmer has been trash for a couple of years now... but not when Kitna was there), the guy just wasn't a franchise QB. Smart guy, works hard but never really seemed to make the other team go "Uh oh, he's on their side."

The debate to how valuable Orton is can probably go on forever, but honestly unless a bunch of teams decide to start overbidding, I don't see us getting much more then a 3rd.

IHaveALight
12-25-2010, 06:15 PM
I'm hoping for a 2. But chances are it'll be a 3, or maybe even 4.

IHaveALight
12-25-2010, 06:19 PM
If Champ demands a trade after being tagged.
Would be sweet if we could get a 1 or 2 for Champ and a 2 for Orton.
Draft Peterson with our first then have a 1 and three 2's (or four 2's) for the front seven.

Broncoman13
12-25-2010, 06:20 PM
4th

NFLBRONCO
12-25-2010, 06:25 PM
3rd or 4th

go_broncos
12-25-2010, 06:26 PM
Late 3rd round/Early 4th

GoBroncos84
12-25-2010, 06:35 PM
A 2nd round pick, or a combination of pick and starter level front 7 player

Pick Six
12-25-2010, 06:39 PM
Orton has been one of the top quarterbacks in the NFL, this season. I think a quarterback-starved team would cough up a 2nd. If they are going to use Orton as a backup, it should be a 3rd or 4th...

oubronco
12-25-2010, 07:21 PM
I don't think anyone will give up anything good maybe a 6 or 7 with an conditional pick

Dagmar
12-25-2010, 07:24 PM
Charlie Whitehurst people.

3rd round pick.

Charlie ****ing Whitehurst.

Orton is worth more than that in a league where many teams have horrible QB situations..

oubronco
12-25-2010, 07:26 PM
True

Jay3
12-25-2010, 07:34 PM
Charlie Whitehurst people.

3rd round pick.

Charlie ****ing Whitehurst.

Orton is worth more than that in a league where many teams have horrible QB situations..

But everyone said that was overpaying, and now that trade stands as a lesson for everybody.

GoBroncos84
12-25-2010, 07:48 PM
I don't think anyone will give up anything good maybe a 6 or 7 with an conditional pick

If that is all that is on the table you keep Orton as insurance policy. A lot of teams could use a veteran QB, there will be a market for him

Los Broncos
12-25-2010, 07:48 PM
3rd or 4th.

ColoradoDarin
12-25-2010, 07:48 PM
Low 2nd is the best case for Orton, more than likely we get a 3rd. A team like the Vikings would be a good fit. Orton is a great P/A passer and having AD to fake to would be good. Plus he wouldn't have to carry that team.

rbackfactory80
12-25-2010, 07:50 PM
4th or 5th

scttgrd
12-25-2010, 07:50 PM
At this point, replacing him with a rookie after 3 wins and two bad games, and yes another injury. Add in the 9 million salary, who is going to give up anything of substance? They might just have to cut him or keep him.

Requiem
12-25-2010, 08:15 PM
I could see a team like Minnesota giving up a third round choice perhaps for his services. I'm friends with a lot of Vikings fans who actually think that is a tremendous deal for them if it were to happen.

Orton's been in the division and in a sense, knows what to expect from the rivals there. I don't think we will be that lucky, but I'm hoping. This will be a good QB class if the juniors who are expected to declare do, so perhaps his value won't be that high. However, I would like to believe that Minnesota would be interested in a veteran presence at QB, rather than going the rookie route. That is a good team with a solid roster.

I'd like to see him moved.

SouthStndJunkie
12-25-2010, 08:39 PM
My guess would be a low 3rd round or a 4th round pick....or a maybe multiple/future picks.

lostknight
12-25-2010, 08:41 PM
If the Broncos make the decision to go with Tebow, they need to do a full commitment to him. This means no keeping a veteran around to hang over his head.

That being said, I think that it's not insane to think we could get a first or two second round picks for him. There is a desperate need at Quarterback this year.

Broncoman13
12-25-2010, 09:13 PM
If the Broncos make the decision to go with Tebow, they need to do a full commitment to him. This means no keeping a veteran around to hang over his head.

That being said, I think that it's not insane to think we could get a first or two second round picks for him. There is a desperate need at Quarterback this year.


Oh boy... a first or two seconds??? You must have hit the eggnog early and kept'em coming all day long!!!

Some of it depends on who all is available in the draft, as in who all declares. If you have Luck, Newton, Locker, Mallett, and then you have 2nd/3rd round QBs in Ponder and Foles. I seriously doubt anybody would give up one 2nd round pick, let alone two or a single first!

As for Whitehurst, a couple things to consider. One, it was Pete Carroll with little time in office. That trade was very similar to what happened with the Broncos when McD first came in. Knee jerk reactions. Second, Whitehurst had one thing that Orton doesn't have, high potential. B/c nobody had really seen him play a lot, he could be viewed (or sold) as the next "so-and-so" of the NFL. He was stuck behind Rivers and there have been plenty of good QBs to succeed in the NFL after being second fiddle somewhere else... I think they were hoping for another Schaub type of player/deal.

Kyle Orton would be a good fit for a team like Arizona or Minny. I personally wouldn't build a team around Kyle Orton, but if I could get him for a 3rd or 4th round pick... and draft a early QB to groom, I'd do it. The Vikings could get Mallett/Locker in the first and then KO in the 4th. That would be a pretty good situation for them.

extralife
12-25-2010, 09:18 PM
Orton is worth a third. The only team that I think would be interested outright would be Minnesota. You might be able to talk Arizona or San Fran into it, but neither of those teams is good enough to be trading picks for vets, so I dunno. Miami might be realistic too, I guess.

Hercules Rockefeller
12-25-2010, 09:20 PM
Pretty sure Foles recently said he was staying in school.

I'd be happy with a mid-round pick, anything else is gravy. There's a lot of QBs out there every year, but at the same time, how many franchises want to wait? Specifically San Fran and Minnesota, who have the skill position talent and good defenses.

Likwid Kerruj
12-25-2010, 09:26 PM
Orton for a 5th plus swap seconds (R2-15) with the Cardinals (R2-6) or Vikings (R2-10)

lostknight
12-25-2010, 09:29 PM
What people - especially the Luck contingent forget over and over is that a first round draft pick is basically a coin flip. For every success there is a complete and total disaster. That's especially true at Quarterback. The problem becomes more pronounced when you are heavily drafting juniors and players that don't have a proven track record at their position.

Minnesota has happily traded away first round picks for premiere players - like Jared Allen.

Broncoman13
12-25-2010, 09:32 PM
Kyle Orton isn't a premier player!

ZONA
12-25-2010, 09:32 PM
Without a doubt I think you will see "playing terms" on any deal for Orton. He'll probably have to go to some other team and compete for the starter position. I think what we might see is player in return for Orton plus a pick that is conditional based on playing time or stats (ex: he passes for over 3500 yards would result in a 2nd round pick - 1000 yards or less maybe a 5th round pick). I think there could be several GM's who would be willing to see what Orton could do in their system and wouldn't mind giving up a 2nd + a player but they'll want to see results and protect themselves if he can't produce the results they are looking for.

lostknight
12-25-2010, 09:33 PM
Without a doubt I think you will see "playing terms" on any deal for Orton. He'll probably have to go to some other team and compete for the starter position. I think what we might see is player in return for Orton plus a pick that is conditional based on playing time or stats (ex: he passes for over 3500 yards would result in a 2nd round pick - 1000 yards or less maybe a 5th round pick). I think there could be several GM's who would be willing to see what Orton could do in their system and wouldn't mind giving up a 2nd + a player but they'll want to see results and protect themselves if he can't produce the results they are looking for.

A solid second and a conditional second doesn't seem out of whack to me.

I'm not interested in low round draft picks. The draft isn't deep enough to justify it.

Broncoman13
12-25-2010, 09:33 PM
Donovan McNabb put up outstanding numbers for the Eagles and he was traded for a 2nd. Most will tell you that Shanny had to pay a premium for him b/c the last thing the Iggles wanted to do was send him to a division rival.

A first or two seconds for Orton is a pipe dream.

ZONA
12-25-2010, 09:35 PM
Orton for a 5th plus swap seconds (R2-15) with the Cardinals (R2-6) or Vikings (R2-10)

Nope - you won't see the Broncos swaping 2nds to pick lower in the second round to get rid of Orton for a 5th. Unless I misunderstoon what you were saying, that's an absolute horrible deal for the Broncos. Down right terrible deal.

KipCorrington25
12-25-2010, 09:37 PM
If they only look at the stats a 4th if they watch the film a 7th.

Likwid Kerruj
12-25-2010, 09:37 PM
Nope - you won't see the Broncos swaping 2nds to pick lower in the second round to get rid of Orton for a 5th. Unless I misunderstoon what you were saying, that's an absolute horrible deal for the Broncos. Down right terrible deal.

You misunderstood.

Broncos also hold R2-15 via the Marshall trade along with their own very high 2nd.

Cardinals sit at R2-6 and Vikings sit at R2-10 currently.

Broncoman13
12-25-2010, 09:43 PM
You misunderstood.

Broncos also hold R2-15 via the Marshall trade along with their own very high 2nd.

Cardinals sit at R2-6 and Vikings sit at R2-10 currently.

So Orton for what amounts to about 70 points on the draft value chart... what's that, a middle to late 4th round pick. Sounds about right to me.

tsiguy96
12-25-2010, 09:44 PM
will not be worse than a 3rd, id imagine. have to realize what many teams trot out there for QBs, and taht orton is infinitely better in many cases.

Rigs11
12-25-2010, 09:50 PM
So everyones sold on tebow already? Wow

Hercules Rockefeller
12-25-2010, 09:54 PM
So everyones sold on tebow already? Wow

It's not an issue of being sold on Tebow, it's that Orton is not the future at QB for the Broncos.

Whether or not Tebow is the future is a completely different issue.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
12-25-2010, 09:57 PM
So everyones sold on tebow already? Wow

Not sold on Tebow. But we can't keep 2-3 QB's at starter money.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-25-2010, 09:59 PM
So everyones sold on tebow already? Wow

I'm sold on Orton having reached his ceiling on a 3-11 team. Given that the organization has a first round investment in Tebow, it's time to see if there will be any return on that investment.

tsiguy96
12-25-2010, 10:04 PM
It's not an issue of being sold on Tebow, it's that Orton is not the future at QB for the Broncos.

Whether or not Tebow is the future is a completely different issue.

not just that, they NEED the picks. team has lacked any real depth for a very long time.

ZONA
12-25-2010, 10:09 PM
The moment Tebow was selected in the 1st round sealed the deal for Orton moving on. He did improve during his 2nd season under McD but I thought all along that Orton was a stop gap while McD had plans to get "his guy" and that was Tebow. If you don't give Tebow a chance, it's like missing on your 1st round pick, and that's never good. Tebow made some big time "NFL Throws" last week and even the announcers said so. The deep out was on the money, the crossing route was nicely in front of the WR and not behind him. Had a TD pass dropped. And the Raiders have a pretty good defense so it's not like he was playing against the, humphh, Broncos defense. He definitely showed enough for us to not only start him the next 2 games to further evaluate just where he is but that we should also game plan about 10 more passes in there. Give him 25 passes and see what he can do.

SonOfLe-loLang
12-25-2010, 11:12 PM
If the Broncos make the decision to go with Tebow, they need to do a full commitment to him. This means no keeping a veteran around to hang over his head.

That being said, I think that it's not insane to think we could get a first or two second round picks for him. There is a desperate need at Quarterback this year.


This is beyond insane. Any QB taken in the first round is expected to be great. We know Orton is decent, but he was still the leader of a losing team in a QB friendly system. He's not old, but he's not getting any younger. 3rd at best.

outdoor_miner
12-25-2010, 11:20 PM
Veteran players always seem undervalued in trades like these to me... While it seems like a "solid" starting quarterback should be worth a low 2nd or high 3rd, I have to agree with the people who say we will get a 4th maximum for Orton.

broncocalijohn
12-25-2010, 11:24 PM
A decent QB should be worth 2-3 players (picks and veterns) stright up. For Orton I'd take a 2nd, 5th and a back-up LB vet with 6-7 years on him.

I dont think you will get that for Orton but I would want at least a 2nd to high 3rd round for him. As GM, I am not dumping him just yet. It all depends on Tebow and who we draft. If trading Orton is waiting until preseason, so be it. There will be some team with a QB hitting IR or just plain sucking eggs. I am sure Redskins might pay a tad extra.

Cito Pelon
12-25-2010, 11:34 PM
Without a doubt I think you will see "playing terms" on any deal for Orton. He'll probably have to go to some other team and compete for the starter position. I think what we might see is player in return for Orton plus a pick that is conditional based on playing time or stats (ex: he passes for over 3500 yards would result in a 2nd round pick - 1000 yards or less maybe a 5th round pick). I think there could be several GM's who would be willing to see what Orton could do in their system and wouldn't mind giving up a 2nd + a player but they'll want to see results and protect themselves if he can't produce the results they are looking for.

Yeah, this scenario will probably be the case. Say a 5th in 2011 and a conditional in 2012 up to maybe a 2nd, maybe a player also in 2011.

Hamrob
12-26-2010, 12:00 AM
There is nobody on this planet willing to give us a 2nd for Kyle Orton. Personally, I think a 3rd is a pipe-dream and I'd be happy if we could get a 5th.

He's just not that good.

In fact, I think Brady Quinn is about the same range of asking price we could hope for.

An unknown or average player plus a 5th or 6th.

footstepsfrom#27
12-26-2010, 02:26 AM
A 3rd rounder, maybe with a conditional clause to bump to a 2nd round pick if he does X, Y or Z...but I doubt they get more than the 3rd by itself.

tsiguy96
12-26-2010, 05:52 AM
There is nobody on this planet willing to give us a 2nd for Kyle Orton. Personally, I think a 3rd is a pipe-dream and I'd be happy if we could get a 5th.

He's just not that good.

In fact, I think Brady Quinn is about the same range of asking price we could hope for.

An unknown or average player plus a 5th or 6th.

you are so beyond dense its incredible LOL

lostknight
12-26-2010, 06:11 AM
you are so beyond dense its incredible LOL

The effectiveness of name-calling anyone who disagreed with your posts as a debate tactic has become ineffective since McHoodie left.


We don't know what will happen at this point. Everyone's speculation is valid.

rbackfactory80
12-26-2010, 06:21 AM
you are so beyond dense its incredible LOL

His post is exactly right. Dense must = correct.

vercingetorix
12-26-2010, 07:11 AM
I'm hoping for a 2. But chances are it'll be a 3, or maybe even 4.

Are you kidding? Has anyone seen what Charlie Whitehurst went for?

Orton is 28 and he's also proven that he is able to quickly learn new offenses.

I see him getting us a 2nd.

TheReverend
12-26-2010, 07:14 AM
Mid 4th is as high as he can net.

tsiguy96
12-26-2010, 07:15 AM
His post is exactly right. Dense must = correct.

he stated that orton is the same as brady quinn, and a guy who was leading the league in passing yards, regardless of system because this is the frickin NFL and they are playing NFL defenses, is not worth higher than a 6th. considering hes a very viable NFL starter and most teams 6th rounders barely make it out of training camp, thats a stupid statement.

rbackfactory80
12-26-2010, 07:28 AM
Its the unknown that makes Quinn valuable. He is a young first round QB. Everyone knows what Orton can do. You can't build a team around him. For a good team with a good defense who needs a back-up to possibly win some games Orton would be a nice option. Maybe a late 3rd to 4th in that situation.

vercingetorix
12-26-2010, 07:53 AM
Its the unknown that makes Quinn valuable. He is a young first round QB. Everyone knows what Orton can do. You can't build a team around him. For a good team with a good defense who needs a back-up to possibly win some games Orton would be a nice option. Maybe a late 3rd to 4th in that situation.

Orton's not a back up. He's just not an elite QB that can carry a team by himself. If he plays on a team that doesnt rely on that to win games, he can be more than adequate.

Too many people are talking as though not being an elite QB means you're garbage.

rbackfactory80
12-26-2010, 08:12 AM
Orton's not a back up. He's just not an elite QB that can carry a team by himself. If he plays on a team that doesnt rely on that to win games, he can be more than adequate.

Too many people are talking as though not being an elite QB means you're garbage.

Right, so basically you are saying he has to be put in a perfect position to succeed. In the NFL the goal is not to float around 500, it is to win it all. Orton at QB doesn't give you that shot.

No one is saying he is garbage, a back-up in the NFL certainly should not be referred to as trash. Orton is a backup that could lead his team to victories, most backups in the NFL can't accomplish that. This is a QB league where all the rules are set up to allow offenses to succeed. Orton is a guy that plain and simple is not good enough. In the NFL you either have your QB of the future or you are continuously looking. We obviously fall into the latter category.

tsiguy96
12-26-2010, 08:19 AM
Right, so basically you are saying he has to be put in a perfect position to succeed. In the NFL the goal is not to float around 500, it is to win it all. Orton at QB doesn't give you that shot.

No one is saying he is garbage, a back-up in the NFL certainly should not be referred to as trash. Orton is a backup that could lead his team to victories, most backups in the NFL can't accomplish that. This is a QB league where all the rules are set up to allow offenses to succeed. Orton is a guy that plain and simple is not good enough. In the NFL you either have your QB of the future or you are continuously looking. We obviously fall into the latter category.

no, but he needs some semblance of a defense and running game to win, like all but 3 QBs in the NFL. and you put those QBs on this teams defense, they will not win more than 6 games. complimentary football, as mcdaniels always preached.

a backup in the NFL does not lead the league in passing for 6-8 weeks in the NFL, i just dont think you totally grasp how many NFL teams there are and what QBs many of them are currently starting.

vercingetorix
12-26-2010, 08:20 AM
Right, so basically you are saying he has to be put in a perfect position to succeed. In the NFL the goal is not to float around 500, it is to win it all. Orton at QB doesn't give you that shot.

No one is saying he is garbage, a back-up in the NFL certainly should not be referred to as trash. Orton is a backup that could lead his team to victories, most backups in the NFL can't accomplish that. This is a QB league where all the rules are set up to allow offenses to succeed. Orton is a guy that plain and simple is not good enough. In the NFL you either have your QB of the future or you are continuously looking. We obviously fall into the latter category.

Sorry but most of this makes no sense. A team that has a lot of components can be a viable threat with Orton at QB. "Perfect position" are your words. And the part about .500 is really out of the blue. Where was that even being discussed?

And sorry but theres not much of a difference between saying he's garbage because he's not elite and saying he's a back up because he's not elite.

Orton is a starter quality QB that can help a team win games provided it doesnt over rely on him. This is what I said previously, and Im saying it again.

frerottenextelway
12-26-2010, 08:21 AM
5th-7th, possibly just released outright. If everything goes our way and miracles happen, maybe a 4th round pick in 2012.

vercingetorix
12-26-2010, 08:26 AM
5th-7th, possibly just released outright. If everything goes our way and miracles happen, maybe a 4th round pick in 2012.

What is this based on?

Beantown Bronco
12-26-2010, 08:46 AM
The Whitehurst trade was actually for the equivalent of a second round pick, not a third. He was traded for a third PLUS the teams swapped picks, with the result of SD moving up 20 picks in the 2nd round. It has the potential to be worth around pick #35 according to the draft charts.

McNabb and Cassel both went for 2nd rounders.

I think those are fairly good comps. Orton has outplayed all three of those guys and he's only 28. Some team will offer at least a 2nd. Anyone saying a 6th or 7th just doesn't know what the hell they are talking about. That's bottom of the barrel backup compensation (in other words.....Brady Quinn).

elsid13
12-26-2010, 08:47 AM
I'm putting it at the 4th rounder with conditional pick the next year depending on his performance. That would make it similar to the Jason Campbell deal that Washington had with Oakland.

CEH
12-26-2010, 08:51 AM
4th round pick I see is his max value.

Mainly because of durability issues and then the Josh effect

Last 3 years he has been injured in some way to effect his play on the field
Who will give up a 3rd round pick in hope that Orton can be there in Decemeber. He's a statue that will take a pounding for 10 weeks unless you have 5 All Pro's protecting him. Teams will look at this, the Josh factor and whether Kyle has the ability in clutch time to make a play. All the defense and running game will do very little in December if the QB can't make a play late to win the game. See KC game. Excuses for KC game see my main point

TheReverend
12-26-2010, 08:51 AM
The Whitehurst trade was actually for the equivalent of a second round pick, not a third. He was traded for a third PLUS the teams swapped picks, with the result of SD moving up 20 picks in the 2nd round. It has the potential to be worth around pick #35 according to the draft charts.

McNabb and Cassel both went for 2nd rounders.

I think those are fairly good comps. Orton has outplayed all three of those guys and he's only 28. Some team will offer at least a 2nd. Anyone saying a 6th or 7th just doesn't know what the hell they are talking about. That's bottom of the barrel backup compensation (in other words.....Brady Quinn).

...and if you tried to trade ANY one of those guys again, they'd go for at best a 4th. And it's a QB rich draft as opposed to last year.

elsid13
12-26-2010, 08:54 AM
Pretty sure Foles recently said he was staying in school.

I'd be happy with a mid-round pick, anything else is gravy. There's a lot of QBs out there every year, but at the same time, how many franchises want to wait? Specifically San Fran and Minnesota, who have the skill position talent and good defenses.

Foles and Crier both look like they are staying now.

rbackfactory80
12-26-2010, 08:57 AM
Sorry but most of this makes no sense. A team that has a lot of components can be a viable threat with Orton at QB. "Perfect position" are your words. And the part about .500 is really out of the blue. Where was that even being discussed?

And sorry but theres not much of a difference between saying he's garbage because he's not elite and saying he's a back up because he's not elite.

Orton is a starter quality QB that can help a team win games provided it doesnt over rely on him. This is what I said previously, and Im saying it again.


Keep arguing semantics. He isn't starter quality, unless you solely rely on stats. In fact, I would be surprised if he is a starter come opening day 2011.

Why I said 500 is because that is the upside of a team with him at QB. It has everything to do with the conversation. Minnesota a team that is consistently talked about as a landing spot for Orton would not be 500 with him at QB. You think they are going to throw a second to us you're crazy.

When I said perfect position I mean a team that is stocked every where and him not dropping back to pass 50 times a game. He is a game manager at best. What does a team pay for a back-up QB, because that is what he is. I will state what I said again- Orton is a great back-up QB.

vercingetorix
12-26-2010, 08:58 AM
...and if you tried to trade ANY one of those guys again, they'd go for at best a 4th. And it's a QB rich draft as opposed to last year.

And with the rookies, theres a learning curve. Some teams are set up to win now.

rbackfactory80
12-26-2010, 09:03 AM
The Whitehurst trade was actually for the equivalent of a second round pick, not a third. He was traded for a third PLUS the teams swapped picks, with the result of SD moving up 20 picks in the 2nd round. It has the potential to be worth around pick #35 according to the draft charts.

McNabb and Cassel both went for 2nd rounders.

I think those are fairly good comps. Orton has outplayed all three of those guys and he's only 28. Some team will offer at least a 2nd. Anyone saying a 6th or 7th just doesn't know what the hell they are talking about. That's bottom of the barrel backup compensation (in other words.....Brady Quinn).

WOW LOL

McNabb and Cassel are not good examples.

McNabb is a superbowl and 5 time NFC Champion. Orton Contributed when Chi-town went to the bowl but give McNabb a little respect.

Cassel if anything hurts Orton's value. He played in the "system" and upon arriving at his new destination hasn't played half as well. People understand McD's system has probably made Orton look better than he was.

vercingetorix
12-26-2010, 09:05 AM
Keep arguing semantics. He isn't starter quality, unless you solely rely on stats. In fact, I would be surprised if he is a starter come opening day 2011.

Why I said 500 is because that is the upside of a team with him at QB. It has everything to do with the conversation. Minnesota a team that is consistently talked about as a landing spot for Orton would not be 500 with him at QB. You think they are going to throw a second to us you're crazy.

When I said perfect position I mean a team that is stocked every where and him not dropping back to pass 50 times a game. He is a game manager at best. What does a team pay for a back-up QB, because that is what he is. I will state what I said again- Orton is a great back-up QB.

You're incorrect. Orton is a starter quality QB. He's just not elite.

Also, you really need to look at Beantown's post. He's given the most credible measure by assessing Ortons value. Everyone else is just spitballing out of frustration with how Denver's season went.

Minnesota, Arizona, Miami, and San Francisco could all be places that would give a 2nd for Orton.

vercingetorix
12-26-2010, 09:07 AM
WOW LOL

McNabb and Cassel are not good examples.

McNabb is a superbowl and 5 time NFC Champion. Orton Contributed when Chi-town went to the bowl but give McNabb a little respect.
Cassel if anything hurts Orton's value. He played in the "system" and upon arriving at his new destination hasn't played half as well. People understand McD's system has probably made Orton look better than he was.

This would matter more if McNabb was in his prime. In that case he would have gone for more. But McNabb was in his mid 30s. The season McNabb had in 2009 is not too out of line with how Orton has performed in 2010. Plus Orton is 28 and has a demonstrated proficiency and being able to learn new offenses, which is valuable to teams wanting a seemless transition.

Gort
12-26-2010, 09:21 AM
According to Yahoo (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=nfp-20101225_broncos_inclined_to_trade_orton_rather_th an_keep_him) & the NFP, citing RavensInsider, the Broncos will be inclined to trade Orton this off-season and keep Tim Tebow. Question is, what kind of market will their be for Orton and what value can we get in return for him?

If you're the Broncos GM, what is the least you would consider for his services?

STUPID ARTICLE. wildly speculative beyond all reason. Tebow has started exactly 1 game. we don't even know who the coaches will be next year or if there will be a season next year or who will be drafted next year. so again, i reiterate... STUPID ARTICLE.

Jesterhole
12-26-2010, 09:24 AM
Charlie Whitehurst people.

3rd round pick.

Charlie ****ing Whitehurst.

Orton is worth more than that in a league where many teams have horrible QB situations..

Don't disagree, but no one thought dude was worth that when the trade happened, except for the sea hawks. If we can get a 4th and a conditional 2-4, I'd be very happy.

I can't imagine any kind of straight up trade. It'll have to be conditional based on his play.

Broncoman13
12-26-2010, 09:28 AM
WOW LOL

McNabb and Cassel are not good examples.

McNabb is a superbowl and 5 time NFC Champion. Orton Contributed when Chi-town went to the bowl but give McNabb a little respect.

Cassel if anything hurts Orton's value. He played in the "system" and upon arriving at his new destination hasn't played half as well. People understand McD's system has probably made Orton look better than he was.

Matt Cassel 24 TDs, 5 INTs and he missed two games. His yardage isn't very good, may get 3000 on the year though... but that's to be expected when you have the #1 Rushing Offense in the league. But this whole Cassel sucks thing isn't really true either. He doesn't turn the ball over much and makes the routine play. Not sure I would want to count on him to be my QB if I were down in the 4th Quarter and needed a come back... not much different from Kyle Orton at all!

Jesterhole
12-26-2010, 09:30 AM
no, but he needs some semblance of a defense and running game to win, like all but 3 QBs in the NFL. and you put those QBs on this teams defense, they will not win more than 6 games. complimentary football, as mcdaniels always preached.

a backup in the NFL does not lead the league in passing for 6-8 weeks in the NFL, i just dont think you totally grasp how many NFL teams there are and what QBs many of them are currently starting.

Ortons stats are a result of the pass friendly system he was in, a complete and utter lack of a running game, and us being behind all the damn time trying to catch up. How many prevent defenses did Kyle play against when we were suffering yet another blowout?

People who understand the game see that. People like you see stats and thinks it means something.

Gort
12-26-2010, 09:36 AM
WOW LOL

McNabb and Cassel are not good examples.

McNabb is a superbowl and 5 time NFC Champion. Orton Contributed when Chi-town went to the bowl but give McNabb a little respect.

Cassel if anything hurts Orton's value. He played in the "system" and upon arriving at his new destination hasn't played half as well. People understand McD's system has probably made Orton look better than he was.

McNabb is a not a superbowl champion. his one trip to the superbowl, the Eagles lost to the Patriots.

McNabb is a 1-time NFC champion. the Eagles went to the NFCC game 5 times with McNabb and lost 4 of them.

spdirty
12-26-2010, 09:39 AM
Minnesota or San Francisco would be the best possible landing spots for Orton. Couldn't venture a guess as to what we could get for him, but my guess is that we would be lucky to get a conditional 3rd-4th.

frerottenextelway
12-26-2010, 09:41 AM
What is this based on?

When you see quarterbacks go for more, it's usually because they're young with potential (and usually a friendly contract).

If that potential doesn't work out, people have a tendency to look back and say "well, xxxx player is better than yyyy, and yyyy went for a good pick, so xxxx must be able to fetch even more."

It doesn't work that way though. Nobody is going to view Orton with the potential of a franchise guy. And nobody is going to view Orton as a guy that can put asses in the seats and sell jerseys either. Orton is what he is, the top level of the journeyman type quarterbacks.

Then you add in that Orton is due more money next year than players like Drew Brees, and Orton's trade value is very limited.

rbackfactory80
12-26-2010, 09:42 AM
McNabb is a not a superbowl champion. his one trip to the superbowl, the Eagles lost to the Patriots.

McNabb is a 1-time NFC champion. the Eagles went to the NFCC game 5 times with McNabb and lost 4 of them.

Yeah I stated that wrong, I meant went to superbowl and 5 championships. Anyway, that's a nice list of accomplishments.

footstepsfrom#27
12-26-2010, 09:42 AM
Why trade Orton at all at this point? Even if Tebow starts next year, we still need a backup and I don't think we can do better than Orton, or get the right guy for less than we get back in return for Orton. I think you trade Orton only if you have a guy you're sure can step in and take it the distance if Tebow gets hurt or shows he needs more time. We could trade Brady Quinn though, if we could find anyone dumb enough like we were to give up a nice player in return...is there anyone out there like that though?

Probably not...

Beantown Bronco
12-26-2010, 09:53 AM
...And it's a QB rich draft as opposed to last year.

Unless every junior declares, this will be an extremely weak QB draft, in terms of potential first rounders at least.

Broncoman13
12-26-2010, 09:54 AM
The real question is, What is Tim Tebow's trade value?

If we somehow end up with a chance at Andrew Luck, the Broncos are going to select him. Lots of local talk about how some former Broncos view Luck, one of them just happens to be a high ranking FO guy for the Broncos now as well.

frerottenextelway
12-26-2010, 09:58 AM
The real question is, What is Tim Tebow's trade value?

If we somehow end up with a chance at Andrew Luck, the Broncos are going to select him. Lots of local talk about how some former Broncos view Luck, one of them just happens to be a high ranking FO guy for the Broncos now as well.

Tebow's trade value would be a lot higher, but there's just no way he's getting traded.

TonyR
12-26-2010, 10:01 AM
Granted, the Broncos don't really know who will play quarterback next season, at least pending the results of Tim Tebow's three-game test drive, which continues today against Houston.

And, granted, the Broncos don't really know who will decide who plays quarterback next season, at least pending the results of John Elway's ongoing negotiations on an as-yet-undefined front-office role.

But let's look at the bright side. Whoever's calling the shots will know, based on last week's developments, that if he doesn't like Kyle Orton as his starter, Orton will want to be traded.

Read more: Krieger: Orton good bait for trade - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/krieger/ci_16944193#ixzz19EouGta3
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse


Interesting suggestion from Krieger that if Carolina picks 1 and Denver 2 the Broncos could give Carolina Orton to swap picks and take Luck.

TheReverend
12-26-2010, 10:03 AM
Unless every junior declares, this will be an extremely weak QB draft, in terms of potential first rounders at least.

Absolutely disagree. Barring workouts, I think there's 5 legit 1st round quarterbacks. At most, 2/3 of the underclassmen don't declare. Compare that to last year when there was one consensus 1st round quarterback.

vercingetorix
12-26-2010, 10:05 AM
When you see quarterbacks go for more, it's usually because they're young with potential (and usually a friendly contract).

If that potential doesn't work out, people have a tendency to look back and say "well, xxxx player is better than yyyy, and yyyy went for a good pick, so xxxx must be able to fetch even more."

It doesn't work that way though. Nobody is going to view Orton with the potential of a franchise guy. And nobody is going to view Orton as a guy that can put asses in the seats and sell jerseys either. Orton is what he is, the top level of the journeyman type quarterbacks.

Then you add in that Orton is due more money next year than players like Drew Brees, and Orton's trade value is very limited.

Charlie Whitehurst is about the same age as Orton and had never done anything. He was traded for the equivalent of a 2ndish-3rdish pick.

Matt Cassel is roughly the same age as Orton, he was traded a couple of years ago but he hasnt outperformed Orton. Orton has actually done more than Cassel since they were both traded.

Donovan McNabb was 34 when he was traded for a 2nd. Where is the potential there?

Broncoman13
12-26-2010, 10:13 AM
Charlie Whitehurst is about the same age as Orton and had never done anything. He was traded for the equivalent of a 2ndish-3rdish pick.

Matt Cassel is roughly the same age as Orton, he was traded a couple of years ago but he hasnt outperformed Orton. Orton has actually done more than Cassel since they were both traded.

Donovan McNabb was 34 when he was traded for a 2nd. Where is the potential there?

McNabb wasn't 34 when he was traded.

Matt Cassel has won more games, put up a higher rating, and has a better TD to INT ratio and better 3rd down pct than KO... not to mention he may have his team in the playoffs as well.

Charlie Whitehurst was 27 when traded, KO would be 29 (They are the same age though)... but there are some other important facts to consider. One, Whitehurst was an unknown. Untapped potential was in the Charger's favor to make that trade. Kyle Orton is a known commodity. Luckily he showed that he can throw the ball which is why he does have SOME trade value.

Rigs11
12-26-2010, 10:14 AM
Why trade Orton at all at this point? Even if Tebow starts next year, we still need a backup and I don't think we can do better than Orton, or get the right guy for less than we get back in return for Orton. I think you trade Orton only if you have a guy you're sure can step in and take it the distance if Tebow gets hurt or shows he needs more time. We could trade Brady Quinn though, if we could find anyone dumb enough like we were to give up a nice player in return...is there anyone out there like that though?

Probably not...
This. Why would you trade orton? If tebow is the starter, and he sucks it up next year, Denver fans will be calling for orton to start. Just because he was a first rounder does not mean he should automatically start. Training camp people.

frerottenextelway
12-26-2010, 10:16 AM
Charlie Whitehurst is about the same age as Orton and had never done anything. He was traded for the equivalent of a 2ndish-3rdish pick.

Matt Cassel is roughly the same age as Orton, he was traded a couple of years ago but he hasnt outperformed Orton. Orton has actually done more than Cassel since they were both traded.

Donovan McNabb was 34 when he was traded for a 2nd. Where is the potential there?

I said usually, and McNabb would be one of those exceptions. Of course McNabb was a guy that was viewed as a guy that was only a couple good seasons away from possibly being a Hall of Fame candidate. His story is really irrelevant to this conversation.

Your other comments just made my point.

vercingetorix
12-26-2010, 10:18 AM
I said usually, and McNabb would be one of the=ose exceptions. Of course McNabb was a guy that was viewed as a guy that was only a couple good seasons away from possibly being a Hall of Fame candidate. His story is really irrelevant to this conversation.

Your other comments just made my point.

How did they prove your point? Franchise guys would be worth a first. Theres recent history pointing to what someone like Orton is worth. Im not sure what your point is.

rbackfactory80
12-26-2010, 10:20 AM
The real question is, What is Tim Tebow's trade value?

If we somehow end up with a chance at Andrew Luck, the Broncos are going to select him. Lots of local talk about how some former Broncos view Luck, one of them just happens to be a high ranking FO guy for the Broncos now as well.

To me its simple, a first rounder. Going in with the deck stacked against him he did well enough to keep his stock even. His stock did not drop from his last performance and he really added fire to a very uninspired team. If anything it went up considering the restraints put on Tebow and the average first start of an NFL QB. Lots of room to grow there.

vercingetorix
12-26-2010, 10:21 AM
McNabb wasn't 34 when he was traded.

Matt Cassel has won more games, put up a higher rating, and has a better TD to INT ratio and better 3rd down pct than KO... not to mention he may have his team in the playoffs as well.

Charlie Whitehurst was 27 when traded, KO would be 29 (They are the same age though)... but there are some other important facts to consider. One, Whitehurst was an unknown. Untapped potential was in the Charger's favor to make that trade. Kyle Orton is a known commodity. Luckily he showed that he can throw the ball which is why he does have SOME trade value.

Yeah, No.

Broncoman13
12-26-2010, 10:22 AM
How did they prove your point? Franchise guys would be worth a first. Theres recent history pointing to what someone like Orton is worth. Im not sure what your point is.

I think the best comp for Orton is probably Matt Cassel. I'd be stoked with a 2nd round pick for Orton. Hell, I'd be happy with a 3rd round pick for KO.

frerottenextelway
12-26-2010, 10:22 AM
How did they prove your point? Franchise guys would be worth a first. Theres recent history pointing to what someone like Orton is worth. Im not sure what your point is.

If that potential doesn't work out, people have a tendency to look back and say "well, xxxx player is better than yyyy, and yyyy went for a good pick, so xxxx must be able to fetch even more."

That is what you're doing.

You're comparing guys who were traded based on potential (rightly or wrongly), then comparing what they did after they were traded to what Orton has done. That's not how it works.

vercingetorix
12-26-2010, 10:26 AM
I think the best comp for Orton is probably Matt Cassel. I'd be stoked with a 2nd round pick for Orton. Hell, I'd be happy with a 3rd round pick for KO.

I think what happens is that the fanbase becomes overly critical during a depressing season because he doesnt perform like the kind of QB that would be worth a 1st in trade value (at least according to perception). And so, Orton becomes undervalued because people are grumpy about the season. Theres a lot of "if he's not elite, he's garbage" type comments.

vercingetorix
12-26-2010, 10:28 AM
If that potential doesn't work out, people have a tendency to look back and say "well, xxxx player is better than yyyy, and yyyy went for a good pick, so xxxx must be able to fetch even more."

That is what you're doing.

You're comparing guys who were traded based on potential (rightly or wrongly), then comparing what they did after they were traded to what Orton has done. That's not how it works.

Cassel, Whitehurst, and McNabb triangulate three contrasting examples. Sorry, Im not seeing how this proves any point that you think youre making.

footstepsfrom#27
12-26-2010, 10:31 AM
Unless every junior declares, this will be an extremely weak QB draft, in terms of potential first rounders at least.
Most likely Locker and Mallet both come out don't you think?

CEH
12-26-2010, 10:35 AM
Casserly just did a report on QBs. Orton was nowhere to be found. He also had the QB from Missouri rising up into the 1st round.
Him, Luck, Netwon, Mallet and Locker all 1st round QB.

5 QB in the 1st round is pretty good number regardless of worthtyness.

frerottenextelway
12-26-2010, 10:35 AM
Cassel, Whitehurst, and McNabb triangulate three contrasting examples. Sorry, Im not seeing how this proves any point that you think youre making.

Cassel and Whitehurst had trade value due to their presumed potential.

Here's a list for you: Batch, Kitna, Anderson. What did they fetch?

vancejohnson82
12-26-2010, 10:38 AM
give us Faneca!

no, but seriousy, a 3rd....but I also like how people are reporting that the Broncos are inclined to trade him...WHO!?!?!? there is nobody there to be talking about this right now....nobody knows anything...

at this point we should have people on the light rail just making hacky-sack decisions

Beantown Bronco
12-26-2010, 10:40 AM
Most likely Locker and Mallet both come out don't you think?

Unless there's a new CBA agreed to in the next three months, which is EXTREMELY unlikely, my prediction is zero underclassmen declare.

colonelbeef
12-26-2010, 10:41 AM
He is worth a 3rd, therefore I would be disappointed if we got any less for him.

razorwire77
12-26-2010, 10:42 AM
I think a conditional 3rd or 4th is probably all we're going to get.

vancejohnson82
12-26-2010, 10:43 AM
He is worth a 3rd, therefore I would be disappointed if we got any less for him.

the FO in place right now would probably cut him, pay him and watch him win a Super Bowl with Minnesota

vercingetorix
12-26-2010, 10:44 AM
Cassel and Whitehurst had trade value due to their presumed potential.

Here's a list for you: Batch, Kitna, Anderson. What did they fetch?

Sorry, but a 28 year old QB that has never started a game doesnt exactly represent that in any way that Orton himself provide a better representation of.

But its good to know that according to your sound reasoning, every 28 year old who has never been good enough to crack the starting lineup represents a potential 2nd round pick in trade.

Beantown Bronco
12-26-2010, 10:47 AM
But its good to know that according to your sound reasoning, every 28 year old who has never been good enough to crack the starting lineup represents a potential 2nd round pick in trade.

Seriously, we should bench Tebow now. Given that he's 5 years younger, maybe we could get two firsts for him using that formula.

elsid13
12-26-2010, 10:49 AM
Most likely Locker and Mallet both come out don't you think?

Locker is a senior and unless he play MLB, he will be a 1st round QB.

frerottenextelway
12-26-2010, 10:50 AM
Sorry, but a 28 year old QB that has never started a game doesnt exactly represent that in any way that Orton himself provide a better representation of.

But its good to know that according to your sound reasoning, every 28 year old who has never been good enough to crack the starting lineup represents a potential 2nd round pick in trade.

It ain't my fault you don't understand how the league works. Don't come crying when he doesn't fetch the pick you think he deserves.

rbackfactory80
12-26-2010, 10:50 AM
All I know is despite how horrible McNabb has played this year he is 20 times the QB Orton is or will ever be. You guys have the horrible memories because I remember McNabb doing some sick ****. That guy was a big-time Qb for the last decade.

frerottenextelway
12-26-2010, 10:50 AM
Seriously, we should bench Tebow now. Given that he's 5 years younger, maybe we could get two firsts for him using that formula.

Tebow has a lot more trade value than Orton, no doubt about it.

vercingetorix
12-26-2010, 10:51 AM
Seriously, we should bench Tebow now. Given that he's 5 years younger, maybe we could get two firsts for him using that formula.

Or just sign some 23 year old in jeans and a tshirt who is shopping at Wal Mart. The potential is limitless since we know Tebow has had a hitch in his throwing motion. Some random 23 year old has a perfect throwing motion as far as anyone knows. The random 23 year old would be worth more (according to the reasoning of some)and we wouldnt have to give up Tebow.

frerottenextelway
12-26-2010, 10:54 AM
Or just sign some 23 year old in jeans and a tshirt who is shopping at Wal Mart. The potential is limitless since we know Tebow has had a hitch in his throwing motion. Some random 23 year old has a perfect throwing motion as far as anyone knows. The random 23 year old would be worth more (according to the reasoning of some)and we wouldnt have to give up Tebow.

Or trade Orton for the entire upcoming NFL Draft, since nobody in the draft has proved anything unlike Orton. Because that's how it works!

Beantown Bronco
12-26-2010, 10:54 AM
Tebow has a lot more trade value than Orton, no doubt about it.

Agree to disagree there.

tsiguy96
12-26-2010, 10:57 AM
It ain't my fault you don't understand how the league works. Don't come crying when he doesn't fetch the pick you think he deserves.

do you honestly believe this stuff? really?

just trying to figure out why people would write ridiculous posts around here, there is no way people can believe that.

vercingetorix
12-26-2010, 10:58 AM
It ain't my fault you don't understand how the league works. Don't come crying when he doesn't fetch the pick you think he deserves.

If youre a win now team and Orton represents the best option, he's worth a 2nd.

If there's anything that would drive down his value its the possibility of Carson Palmer and Kevin Kolb also being available but its none of this reasoning of yours about "potential".

HAT
12-26-2010, 10:58 AM
Pick #44

tsiguy96
12-26-2010, 11:00 AM
If youre a win now team and Orton represents the best option, he's worth a 2nd.

If there's anything that would drive down his value its the possibility of Carson Palmer and Kevin Kolb also being available but its none of this reasoning of yours about "potential".

kolb is a true 1st/2nd round type QB that will be traded. orton will be traded for a conditional pick based on wins and TDs id imagine

frerottenextelway
12-26-2010, 11:02 AM
do you honestly believe this stuff? really?

just trying to figure out why people would write ridiculous posts around here, there is no way people can believe that.

This happens every year on here, we see ridiculous suggestions for trades. People on here have a lack of understanding of how trade value works, and are going to be in a bit of a shock if Orton gets traded or released. I'm right, and time will prove me right.

rbackfactory80
12-26-2010, 11:04 AM
Tebow has a lot more trade value than Orton, no doubt about it.

Seriously, someone needs to start a poll for his value. After he gets traded for at best a fourth this thread will be long forgotten.

vercingetorix
12-26-2010, 11:04 AM
kolb is a true 1st/2nd round type QB that will be traded. orton will be traded for a conditional pick based on wins and TDs id imagine

I wouldnt dismiss the fact that Orton has proven that he is capable of learning new offenses in a short period of time. If its a WCO team, I can see Kolb having more appeal.

tsiguy96
12-26-2010, 11:09 AM
This happens every year on here, we see ridiculous suggestions for trades. People on here have a lack of understanding of how trade value works, and are going to be in a bit of a shock if Orton gets traded or released. I'm right, and time will prove me right.

yes we do see ridiculous trade suggestions, but you need to look at the big picture. look at the starting QBs for atleast 15 teams in this league, instead of people harping on "hes a backup" which is silly, hes not elite but hes pretty good, definitely starter materal for a LOT of teams. a 2nd/3rd round pick for a good starting QB si not unheard of at all in this league.

frerottenextelway
12-26-2010, 11:13 AM
yes we do see ridiculous trade suggestions, but you need to look at the big picture. look at the starting QBs for atleast 15 teams in this league, instead of people harping on "hes a backup" which is silly, hes not elite but hes pretty good, definitely starter materal for a LOT of teams. a 2nd/3rd round pick for a good starting QB si not unheard of at all in this league.

Nah, I think he'll have a good chance of starting if he gets traded. He'd just be a transitional QB for wherever he goes though.

HAT
12-26-2010, 11:15 AM
Kyle Orton isn't a premier player!

Not true. He is not a premier QB. But a top 15 QB in a league with nearly 1,700 roster spots is absolutely a premier player.

TotallyScrewed
12-26-2010, 11:25 AM
There is nobody on this planet willing to give us a 2nd for Kyle Orton. Personally, I think a 3rd is a pipe-dream and I'd be happy if we could get a 5th.

He's just not that good.

In fact, I think Brady Quinn is about the same range of asking price we could hope for.

An unknown or average player plus a 5th or 6th.

But look what the Broncos gave up for Brady Quinn? Anything's possible. The Broncos gave up the 10th best rusher in 2010 PLUS a sixth round pick for a definite back-up and possibly 3rd string QB.

I mean there's a wide, wide spectrum of possibilities. I'm just not holding out much hope...this year has sucked...why would it change now?