Denver's vacancy is a desirable job.

[Pseudofool]

I'm tired of hearing posters and MSM hacks suggest that Denver has become anathema to potential high powered hires.

The cupboard simply is not bear--the loot received from Cutler and Marshall largely seems to netted us some real talent--granted nearly on all offense (save Ayers). People are getting stuck on bad trades (Hillis, Sheffler, Smith, but we clearly "won" the big name trades), and on a few poor draft picks (Smith, again) and fail to acknowledge just how much rebuilding has taken place. Exactly how many jettisoned players have NFL jobs beyond those already mentioned? Some might claim the secondary is old, but they ignore Cox, Thompson, McBath, Burton, and Vaughn. The linebacking core Williams, Ayers, Dumerville are good, even no names like Mays, Hunter, and a vet like Haggan can play roles. The DL is clearly a mess. It has been a lack of execution and a lack of game management that has led to the appearance that we are short on talent, but that's not the case in pretty much all units (save the DL, which might be the affects the whole damn defense). The entire offense is very young, and there's depth at WR and QB, and the OL has played promising of late. Of course this has been gone over more thoroughly http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=95576 (Here) and elsewhere I can't quite locate. While I may overestimate the talent we have, the idea that the cupboard is bare is absurd.

The notion that after one year of a losing season (yes, just one) that Denver has some out stripped it's long winning history that was sustained for nearly two and half decades is silly. The climate, the local and national fanbase, the history, the investment of former players, the owner (yes that guy without bowels and on a bender), the facilities, and the stadium all contribute to a premium job.

We also have Tebow.

It is precisely because of the Broncos national prominence that people are eager to suggest that this job minefield. The next coach will have pieces to work with it, and will probably show a much greater flexibility than Josh did in utilizing what is already here.

[Killericon]

I hope that if Gruden doesn't become our coach, he becomes someone else's coach, and we can fleece 'em for Tebow.

[footstepsfrom#27]

*An owner whose age and mental health are leading to speculation he's slipping.
*Rumored financial concerns made more disturbing by what is known about the legal issues surrounding the sale of the team
*Demonstrated foolish decision making on the part of the owner, hiring a 32 year old who was obviously unprepared
*Suspicious and uncomfortable front office mess still has former actors in place that are both inexperienced and possibly troublesome to a new coach
*Apparently limited wilingness to adequatly compensate a big name coach
*No clear cut vision in place, looks like they're adrift philosophically
*Confusion over the future of the QB position

Why is this an attractive option for any big time coach to come here?

[Pseudofool]

*An owner whose age and mental health are leading to speculation he's slipping.
*Rumored financial concerns made more disturbing by what is known about the legal issues surrounding the sale of the team
*Demonstrated foolish decision making on the part of the owner, hiring a 32 year old who was obviously unprepared
*Suspicious and uncomfortable front office mess still has former actors in place that are both inexperienced and possibly troublesome to a new coach
*Apparently limited wilingness to adequatly compensate a big name coach
*No clear cut vision in place, looks like they're adrift philosophically
*Confusion over the future of the QB position

Why is this an attractive option for any big time coach to come here?I could address these one by one, but that's giving these hasty thoughts more attention than they deserve.

Some of these are preconditions of simply needing a new coach (philosophy, bad previous hire, FO problems), and for the rest of your points are couched in terms like "apparently" "rumored" "suspicious" and "speculation." Are we really suppose to take that seriously? (Is that what the asterisked bullets are for?)

[Killericon]

*An owner whose age and mental health are leading to speculation he's slipping.
*Rumored financial concerns made more disturbing by what is known about the legal issues surrounding the sale of the team
*Demonstrated foolish decision making on the part of the owner, hiring a 32 year old who was obviously unprepared
*Suspicious and uncomfortable front office mess still has former actors in place that are both inexperienced and possibly troublesome to a new coach
*Apparently limited wilingness to adequatly compensate a big name coach
*No clear cut vision in place, looks like they're adrift philosophically
*Confusion over the future of the QB position

Why is this an attractive option for any big time coach to come here?

Solid points.

[Schism]

The offensive talent has to be attractive for a prospective coach.

On the line, Clady and Kuper are proven quality players. Beadles looks like he could be a tremendous player in the making and Walton was a highly touted prospect who I expect will be at least a competent starter by the beginning of next year after some rookie struggles. The only issue is Harris and his injury issues really, but if you add a quality backup OT and some competent interior depth you're pretty much set on the OL.

Our receiving corp is deep and talented with some nice youth there in Royal and Thomas. And Moreno is a well rounded back who seems to be really finding his groove as a runner in the last month or so of this year. Larsen looks to be developing into a good FB too.

At QB you either think you can do something with Tebow or else you have the option of falling back on Orton, who has proven himself a solid player in the NFL who'll give you reasonable production from your QB position while you look for your QBOTF.

The only position that wouldn't appear to be well set up at the moment is TE.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I could address these one by one, but that's giving these hasty thoughts more attention than they deserve.

Some of these are preconditions of simply needing a new coach (philosophy, bad previous hire, FO problems), and for the rest of your points are couched in terms like "apparently" "rumored" "suspicious" and "speculation." Are we really suppose to take that seriously? (Is that what the asterisked bullets are for?)
Take it however you wish, it's 4:10 in the AM I'm not interested in writing a book here, but if you haven't noticed the huge widening gap in credibility relatetd to Bowlen and everything from his health to his judgement to his honesty with the fan base, well I don't know what else I can say to you. Now look at the stadium issue and how that's changed as well. We were a desirable location based in large part on our home record while we were winning at the highest homefield advantage rate in the league, and now we're barely a .500 team at home...much of this probably related to the new stadium, and especially who the fans attending the game are now, corporate types instead of blue collar true believers.

Fact is, Denver is no longer the pearl of the NFL in tems of it being a coaches destination, and if you think otherwise...I can't help you. On top of this, months and months of bad press are going to make most coaches think twice, especially since we see no evidence Bowlen is even interested in going after a big time coach. Troy Calhoun? Are you kidding me? The fact this guy is even on their list shows who ISN'T on their list...anybody who might get paid a lot.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Solid points.
I used the qualifying limiters out of respect for the position of those who disagree. I could easily eliminate them and get the same point accross.

[Killericon]

I used the qualifying limiters out of respect for the position of those who disagree. I could easily eliminate them and get the same point accross.

Alright then.

*An owner whose age and mental health are leading to speculation he's slipping.

There is absolutely no proof of this whatsoever. There's no 'disagreement' about it.
*Rumored financial concerns made more disturbing by what is known about the legal issues surrounding the sale of the team
Again, cite your sources. I've yet to see a smoking gun that points to Bowlen actually having financial difficulty.
*Demonstrated foolish decision making on the part of the owner, hiring a 32 year old who was obviously unprepared
So, just to be clear, a Head Coach wouldn't want to be hired by Bowlen because they might be afraid that's a stupid move? As a side note, if coaches didn't want to work for teams that had demonstrated stupidty in the past, we'd be in a weird place.
*Suspicious and uncomfortable front office mess still has former actors in place that are both inexperienced and possibly troublesome to a new coach
I have absolutely no idea what you're referring to here.
*Apparently limited wilingness to adequatly compensate a big name coach
When Josh was signed, it was to a pretty beefy contract for a first time coach. When Shanny got his extension, it made him the highest paid coach in the NFL. This is patently nonsense.
*No clear cut vision in place, looks like they're adrift philosophically
Again, your fear is that a coach would not want to come here for fear that the organization has no vision? That's the coach's job. He'd be putting his vision in place.
*Confusion over the future of the QB position
Refer to above. A new coach would have the opportunity to either utilize a proven veteran or go with an exciting prospect. Both options are already in place here, and a new coach would get to pick.

[Kaylore]

*An owner whose age and mental health are leading to speculation he's slipping.
*Rumored financial concerns made more disturbing by what is known about the legal issues surrounding the sale of the team
*Demonstrated foolish decision making on the part of the owner, hiring a 32 year old who was obviously unprepared
*Suspicious and uncomfortable front office mess still has former actors in place that are both inexperienced and possibly troublesome to a new coach
*Apparently limited wilingness to adequatly compensate a big name coach
*No clear cut vision in place, looks like they're adrift philosophically
*Confusion over the future of the QB position

Why is this an attractive option for any big time coach to come here?

What a bunch of crap. Most of this is hearsay you dressed up with big words. And its hilarious that you're still beating the old "Bowlen is broke" drum when there is empirical evidence to the contrary, too. I'll give you better reasons people will want this job.


This is one of the hardest jobs to get in sports.
NFL head coach is the pinacle of coaching professions in the sport, arguably in any sport.
Denver has a tradition of winning and caring about winning. Your front office would give you carte blanche to do your thing, or at least the new GM. You would get a team willing to invest in winning.
Denver is a great place to live. It's beautiful and comfortable.
The "QB" situation is a trade away from being a non-issue.
Some of the best facilities in the NFL.


Perhaps the situation wouldn't lure some football color commentators people want to hire away from their broadcast booths, but believe me there are plenty of people who would love to coach the Broncos. The Raiders find coaches every year. We can find one.

[Tom A Hawk]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5896191

this guy may want it!!

[colonelbeef]

*An owner whose age and mental health are leading to speculation he's slipping.
*Rumored financial concerns made more disturbing by what is known about the legal issues surrounding the sale of the team
*Demonstrated foolish decision making on the part of the owner, hiring a 32 year old who was obviously unprepared
*Suspicious and uncomfortable front office mess still has former actors in place that are both inexperienced and possibly troublesome to a new coach
*Apparently limited wilingness to adequatly compensate a big name coach
*No clear cut vision in place, looks like they're adrift philosophically
*Confusion over the future of the QB position

Why is this an attractive option for any big time coach to come here?

Yep.

QB and a lack of willingness to spend are the big ones. When McDaniels came in, this was the most attractive spot in the NFL. Now that the offensive talent has been diminished and so many picks have been pissed away, this is no longer true.

[TonyR]

*Apparently limited wilingness to adequatly compensate a big name coach


This is perhaps the worst of your speculative and poorly thought out points. First, we don't know that it's true. Second, yes, if Gruden, for example, wants $5 million a year but Bowlen is only willing to pay $3 million a year the job to him is "undesirable". But if Bowlen is willing to pay $5 million it is desirable. It's that simple. Also, even if it's undesirable to Gruden at $3 million, in this hypothetical, there are plenty of other people who would take that salary.

The organization certainly has some question marks, and certainly some candidates might be hesitant to take the job. But frankly I wouldn't want a coach would wasn't up to the challenge.

[TonyR]

When McDaniels came in, this was the most attractive spot in the NFL.

LOL Seriously, listen to yourselves. How often does "the most attractive" job come open? Coaches get fired because the teams don't meet expectations, and there are usually problems that contribute to this. The Saints and Falcons were both a mess before they got their current coaches. Who would've taken those jobs? Well, apparently, some pretty good coaches took them.

[bowtown]

Yep.

QB and a lack of willingness to spend are the big ones. When McDaniels came in, this was the most attractive spot in the NFL. Now that the offensive talent has been diminished and so many picks have been pissed away, this is no longer true.

Please point to proof of this organization's unwilingness to spend. Please.

[HAT]

If I was the incoming coach....My only concern would be the precedent that PB is willing to pull the plug prior to 3 years.

[bendog]

Please point to proof of this organization's unwilingness to spend. Please.

ahhh, Champ, champ

[Kaylore]

Please point to proof of this organization's unwilingness to spend. Please.

Dumervil, Kuper, Orton, two first round picks, Dawkins, Williams, Jarvis Green, and paying two coaches not to coach. But Bowlen won't spend any money cuz footsteps said he's broke and a tour guide allegedly said he has amnesia.

[TonyR]

ahhh, Champ, champ

A lot of considerations on this one. You can't pay every player on your roster top $. They just gave Dumervil huge $. The team is rebuilding. There is a strong liklihood of a lockout. From a business perspective it doesn't make a lot of since to give big, guaranteed money to an aging player in such circumstances. We all want him back but you have to be able to see that it's not a simple decision.

[vancejohnson82]

This job is scary for a few reasons:

Taking over an offense that is set up with McDaniels' fingerprints all over it. I don't think there are many coaches who can run a prolific offense with this personnel. Although if we beef up the OL and DT becomes a player it might be OK.

The defense is atrocious and old. So you come in and fire Wink, and now have to start over from scratch with your D. May not be a bad thing since half the guys on this D other than DJ, Ayers, McBath Doom and Cox can pretty much be let go without it missing a beat. But its still a project.

A fanbase that is rabid and impatient. I know, I know, its just PASSION. But after seeing how McD's head was carried off on a platter by this town, any coach who takes this job is going to have to have thick skin and not care what the fans think. The media also has a hand in this, but they do everywhere.

No GM or personnel department.

Basically, we are a roster of stopgap players with some young talent and no front office.

It's like we are an expansion team

[colonelbeef]

Please point to proof of this organization's unwilingness to spend. Please.

The Broncos are in the bottom 10 of NFL team payroll, and regularly spend below the cap threshold. This is inexcusable for a team that owns its own stadium and has a large a fanbase as Denver does.

[Sassy]

*An owner whose age and mental health are leading to speculation he's slipping.
*Rumored financial concerns made more disturbing by what is known about the legal issues surrounding the sale of the team
*Demonstrated foolish decision making on the part of the owner, hiring a 32 year old who was obviously unprepared
*Suspicious and uncomfortable front office mess still has former actors in place that are both inexperienced and possibly troublesome to a new coach
*Apparently limited wilingness to adequatly compensate a big name coach
*No clear cut vision in place, looks like they're adrift philosophically
*Confusion over the future of the QB position

Why is this an attractive option for any big time coach to come here?

Because they're are only 32 HC jobs in the NFL!

[2KBack]

A lot of considerations on this one. You can't pay every player on your roster top $. They just gave Dumervil huge $. The team is rebuilding. There is a strong liklihood of a lockout. From a business perspective it doesn't make a lot of since to give big, guaranteed money to an aging player in such circumstances. We all want him back but you have to be able to see that it's not a simple decision.

Also it appeared that the team and Champ had already agreed on a contract when it was pulled. With the whole CBA thing looming, who knows what the reasoning behind the pull really was. I don't think it was money.

[Br0nc0Buster]

Sounds like a desirable job to me
Pat generally lets the FO and coaches do their thing, he doesnt mico manage like someone like Jerry Jones

Denver is also a football town in a popular and wonderful city

Ill take it if no one else wants it, but you would have to be nuts to turn a job like that down if you currently arent a headcoach of another NFL team or if you dont have a comfy booth job like Gruden

[Mile High Shack]

sweet fancy moses....apparently everyone believes what they read on the interwebs now

Let's see how this plays out people before you assume Bowlen has lost his marbles and is broke.

I still think the head coach of the Denver Broncos is a great job and I guarantee someone else out there does too.

[bendog]

of course it was about money. lol Bowlen doesn't and never has made personnel decisions.

But to be fair to Bowlen, the last union contract really put Den at a competitive disadvantage because the net effect of Invesco v. MH is that Bowlen actually has to pay more of his revenue to lower revenue teams than before when they just split the regular seating gate and tv contracts. Somebody like Gruden is not going to take this job until/unless the labor thing is worked out and cities like Mineapolis either fund stadiums or don't have other teams funding free agent signings and unless Bowlen can convince them he's still competent and interested in winning games.

[Mile High Shack]

if it was all about money, why wouldn't Bowlen keep McDaniels then? Seems to me, if it was all about money, he wouldn't want to do this, just ride it out to save money so he doesn't have to pay 3 coaches.

I thought it was all about money until he fired him on Monday, now I don't think it's all about money right now for him.

[Rohirrim]

Hell, I'll do it for a million. No sweat.

[bowtown]

Also it appeared that the team and Champ had already agreed on a contract when it was pulled. With the whole CBA thing looming, who knows what the reasoning behind the pull really was. I don't think it was money.

It wasn't money. No teams are handing out large extentions right now. Peyton Manning's new deal has been put on hold, are the Colts also unwilling to spend? The whole Champ contract thing is so stupid. Just wait until the new CBA is in place before running around like headeless chickens claiming that we don't want to pay for our players.

[bendog]

if it was all about money, why wouldn't Bowlen keep McDaniels then? Seems to me, if it was all about money, he wouldn't want to do this, just ride it out to save money so he doesn't have to pay 3 coaches.

I thought it was all about money until he fired him on Monday, now I don't think it's all about money right now for him.

Who said everything was about money. Look, if champ resigns, they have to pay him the bonus regardless of a lockout. There is going to be a lockout, count on it. You think Bowlen WANTED to fire McD? Of course he didnt'. But McD's made den the laugh of the NFL. Spygateii? The personnel moves? Bowlen's ego is huge. He doesn't like being laughed at.

[rugbythug]

The Broncos are in the bottom 10 of NFL team payroll, and regularly spend below the cap threshold. This is inexcusable for a team that owns its own stadium and has a large a fanbase as Denver does.

False

[bendog]

False

you are wrong. It's been linked and re-linked. google it yourself.

[bowtown]

you are wrong. It's been linked and re-linked. google it yourself.

At what point did our having a low payroll ever hamper keeping the talent that we wanted, if it was deemed justified and worth it by those in charge of personell at the time (Shanahan or McDaniels)?

There are a lot of other great teams with big markets that are also in the bottom 10: Atlanta, Green Bay, KC, Baltimore, New England. Think some of those HC jobs might be desirable if they opened up? And there are a lot of bad teams that spend in the top 10: Oakland, Cleveland, Arizona, Jax.

It's just a dumb argument to equate money that has been spent to money that can or is willing to be spent. Or to equate payroll to a coaching job being desirable.

[bendog]

At what point did our having a low payroll ever hamper keeping the talent that we wanted, if it was deemed justified and worth it by those in charge of personell at the time (Shanahan or McDaniels)?

There are a lot of other great teams with big markets that are also in the bottom 10: Atlanta, Green Bay, KC, Baltimore, New England. Think some of those HC jobs might be desirable if they opened up? And there are a lot of bad teams that spend in the top 10: Dallas, Oakland, Cleveland, Arizona, Jax.

It's just a dumb argument to equate money that has been spent to money that can or is willing to be spent. Or to equate payroll to a coaching job being desirable.

argue with yourself because you are unable to follow a topic.

[elsid13]

if it was all about money, why wouldn't Bowlen keep McDaniels then? Seems to me, if it was all about money, he wouldn't want to do this, just ride it out to save money so he doesn't have to pay 3 coaches.

I thought it was all about money until he fired him on Monday, now I don't think it's all about money right now for him.

You do realize if there is a lockout McDaniels and the rest of the staff only get 50% of their salaries.

[Mile High Shack]

You do realize if there is a lockout McDaniels and the rest of the staff only get 50% of their salaries.

no I didn't, I thought he had to pay them still...interesting...good info sir

[SonOfLe-loLang]

*An owner whose age and mental health are leading to speculation he's slipping.
*Rumored financial concerns made more disturbing by what is known about the legal issues surrounding the sale of the team
*Demonstrated foolish decision making on the part of the owner, hiring a 32 year old who was obviously unprepared
*Suspicious and uncomfortable front office mess still has former actors in place that are both inexperienced and possibly troublesome to a new coach
*Apparently limited wilingness to adequatly compensate a big name coach
*No clear cut vision in place, looks like they're adrift philosophically
*Confusion over the future of the QB position

Why is this an attractive option for any big time coach to come here?

Ive never heard people take an obvious hyperbolic quote (Bowlens self-deprecating one about his mental health) so seriously.

[bronco_diesel]

I think the fact that Bowlen fired McD would dispell the notion that he is broke. Everyone was speculating that he had to retain him because he could not afford to pay 3coaches in a potential lockout. He clearly proved that wrong.

Also, if he were broke, could he really afford to add positions to the payroll (GM)?

[bowtown]

argue with yourself because you are unable to follow a topic.

Sorry, quoted the wrong person. Meant to quote colonbeef.

[Chris]

The fanbase would be great if this were a team poised to take off... but we're not... we need a new defense. With the firing of Mcdaniels it's clear the fanbase's opinion matters regardless of how clueless they might be about football (they generally are).

We are a populist organisation apparently. Populist presidents generally do poorly... so do football teams.

[DarkHorse30]

Bowlen's hire of McDaniels was a risk, but so is EVERY coaching hire. The difference was that it was McDaniels first HC job......and the GM was also a rookie. Bowlen should have know better, but Ellis should get most of the blame for that...... if you're the COO,YOU should get the blame for pairing a rook coach with a rook GM. Two guys that are unsure of what to do is a recipe for disaster.

On another topic, I'd like to see Denver approach Bailey with the idea of giving him a nice contract and moving him to free safety.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I think the fact that Bowlen fired McD would dispell the notion that he is broke. Everyone was speculating that he had to retain him because he could not afford to pay 3coaches in a potential lockout. He clearly proved that wrong.

Also, if he were broke, could he really afford to add positions to the payroll (GM)?
Nobody thinks Bowlen is broke, lots of people think he's having some problems...big difference. A coach costs about what a middle of the road NFL lineman costs now, so I fail to see the relevance here.

[WolfpackGuy]

Definitely the case in January 2009.

Not so much these days.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Ive never heard people take an obvious hyperbolic quote (Bowlens self-deprecating one about his mental health) so seriously.
There's more to it than that. It's clear he's not the same guy he used to be 15 years ago, and I noted a while back that a Bronco employee flat out said he has dimentia when I talked to her this summer. How she knows, whether she knows...makes little differnce to me because I see the evidence in how this guy is making decisions now versus how he used to do so. Mix in the fact you almost never see or hear from him directly...something is up and it's obvious Bowlen wasn't just being funny, he's got some medical issues related to his memory that aren't good.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Because they're are only 32 HC jobs in the NFL!
The same is true for every other NFL job...and I didn't say NOBODY would want the job. I said it's no longer the pearl of the NFL jobs, and it's not. Sure, 99% of all the head football coaches in the world would take this job, but hopefully it's only the 1% of those remaining we'd want to interview since we do want the best...don't we? A guy like Troy Calhoun who is certainly no household name...he's already apparently removed his name from the list. Do you hear other top name coaches lining up expressing interest? Where is Tony Dungy? Gruden? The Chin? Do you hear any top flight college guys saying they want this job? In fact do we hear anybody at all doing that? This team has ownership issues or at the very least the perception of those issues, and that because it's finances are cloaked in secrecy, with the corporate shield spread over half a dozen shell-like holding companies in multiple jurisdictions. The financial condition of the owner related to his obligations under the conditions of his purchase of the team still plagues this franchise, not to mention that the fans no longer seem willing to attend in sell out numbers. In the last two years Bowlen fired a potential HOF coach, hired a 32 year old who radically failed, then demonstrated lack of patience with the same guy he confidently asserted would take the team in a new direction when he bailed on his vote of confidence within a week, and these issues don't even address his health issues, which are becoming more and more a distraction.

If you think the team hasn't been damaged in the minds of the top coaching candidates...well how could it possibly not be after the endless stream of bad press we've had for two years?

[TonyR]

Do you hear other top name coaches lining up expressing interest? Where is Tony Dungy? Gruden? The Chin? Do you hear any top flight college guys saying they want this job? In fact do we hear anybody at all doing that?


To be fair I think it's far too early in the process for people to be expressing interest. Do you hear anybody expressing interest in the Dallas or Minnesota jobs? Do you recall expressions of interest in the Washington job before Shanahan got it? I don't know that it really works that way. Good candidates don't need to publicly express interest, and the people who do are often the ones who have no chance of getting the job anyway.

[The MVPlaya]

Denver job isn't desirable based on the ****ty fan base, horrible home field advantage due to ****ty ass fans who can't cheer, and horrible Denver media outlets.