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lostknight
12-04-2010, 11:59 AM
When the Broncos have been in trouble, it's almost universally been in third down. when the Broncos are successful, it's almost overwhelmingly because thy have avoided third down altogether. Why is that? The NFL has moved to a series of tightly planned quick timed attacks and routes. Two step drops, seven step drops, and play action. Al of which have a precise timing to them. The best in the game is the chargers - the Air Croyll attacks are very precise timing routes, where separation is caused by the timing of the route itself, and only requires one or two reads.

The best quarterbacks in the league since Elway retired have been quarterbacks that excel at these very carefully times and planned routes. Brady, Manning all are captains. The sit down, diagnose, think, plan, and execute. The league is a copy cat league, and Orton is a (good) fascimilie of this trend. The problem is that the NFL has adapted to this.

These kind of passing attacks are the susceptible to moving the quarterback or the receivers "off schedule." Remember that phrase, you will hear it much more over the next few years. It's not just about pass rush, it's anything that disrupts the timing between QBs and receivers. You do this in two ways - blitzing the passer, or "chipping" the receivers - moving them off target, disrupting a play's timing.


Kyle Orton has a weird glaring problem. The worst thing in the world you can do with Kyle is put him in a situation where the Broncos are behind, and the game is on the line. His rating when the Broncos are behind 1-7 points is 30 points lower then his average. His red zone play is 15 points below his average (which is why I chuckle when the Ortonites complain about Tebow getting "the easy TDs"). 4th Quarter within 7? His average is almost 40 points below his usual . Similar drop off for the last two minutes of the first. All of the situations above are scenarios in which opposing teams focus on moving the QB and the receivers off-schedule, and Orton, and thus the Broncos are very bad in this scenario.

Some will object that any quarterback is bad, when moved off schedule. It's simply not true. To add fuel to the fire, let's compare Orton with Cutler.

Interestingly enough, Kyle Orton and Jay Cutler really are reverses of each other. Cutler is at the top of his game when it's close, and sucks when the score differential is greater then 14, while Orton get's his best marks there. Cutler clearly has stamina issues - his rating plummets when he has to pass more then 20 times again. Orton is rock solid in terms of stamina, but tends to loose it when being moved off schedule no matter what quarter it occurs in. Cutler does best when he is off schedule - his upper body strength and mobility allow him to make plays Orton can't. But if a game plan requires precise timing routes, you are screwed with Cutler, which is almost the only thing that Orton does. The exact same thing is true of all of the mobile quarterbacks - Vick and Rapesalotberger. The tighter a game is, the bigger advantage a mobile quarterback is. Cutler may suck outside the 20s and not in clutch, but allows for "complementary football."

Conversely, consider Tom Brady. His behind by less then 7 in the 4th quarter, 2 minutes left has a similar drop to Orton - 20 points lower then his average. This despite Brady having a career year. Manning, another fairly mobile quarterback, likewise has huge liability last two minutes of the first, and end of game.

To win this game, we have to go for the kill early, put them in such a huge hole, that it doesn't matter if Cassel throws for 400 yards.

Failing that, we might need to see if Tebow's mobility brings us the advantage we need to win when we are behind.

tsiguy96
12-04-2010, 12:01 PM
http://www.stayfitbug.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/broken-record.jpg

lostknight
12-04-2010, 12:04 PM
http://www.stayfitbug.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/broken-record.jpg

I'm sorry. Did the truth offend you?

tsiguy96
12-04-2010, 12:10 PM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_oSmneHSBf4Y/S-LqayyqvCI/AAAAAAAAAFA/RXCA_WS0H-M/s1600/Beating_a_dead_horse.jpg

the people whos job it is to run and control this team, who are with these guys on a daily basis, have a good understanding of what it takes to win. they believe kyle orton is in a better spot to do that than tebow, and given that orton is having a damn good season and tebow has had a career 1 throw, i think its safe to believe them.

but make up your facts as you see fit.

Homer Simpson
12-04-2010, 12:13 PM
I liked the post myself. I think Tebow will do fine at QB especially under McDaniels if he gets that chance. I think reason Kyle for picks we use on D would be a smart move. Flame away!

Jesterhole
12-04-2010, 12:14 PM
Good write up. I like Orton, but I think he looks better because McDaniels doesn't run the ball and has a knack for the passing attack.

I'm excited to see Tebow play because he is a player that creates, much like Elway did. Orton takes what the defense gives him...Tebow forces the issue.

TheReverend
12-04-2010, 12:21 PM
the people whos job it is to run and control this team, who are with these guys on a daily basis, have a good understanding of what it takes to win. they believe kyle orton is in a better spot to do that than tebow, and given that orton is having a damn good season and tebow has had a career 1 throw, i think its safe to believe them.

but make up your facts as you see fit.

Results disagree

zdoor
12-04-2010, 12:30 PM
Results disagree

A very unfortunate truth

bowtown
12-04-2010, 12:37 PM
Results disagree

But it is hard to argue that they don't know qbs.

snowspot66
12-04-2010, 12:37 PM
The problem with 3rd down? It's always a long third down. You will never consistently convert 3rd and 7+.

Here's an idea. Let's get our run game fixed, give Orton time to throw, and have a defense that doesn't all but guarantee that, despite what good the offense does, the game will at best be tied or we'll be down a score or two at the fourth quarter.

Of all the things wrong on this team you pick Orton to bash. That's just unbelievable at this point in time. Tebow will go in when Tebow has proven to be the guy playing the best. And that isn't right now.

_Oro_
12-04-2010, 12:38 PM
Nice post. Really pertinent observations about the mobile QB versus the pocket passer. I really like the idea of having two quarterbacks and I think Josh may be the only guy in the league who can make it work. It'd be great to see Orton and Tebow exchanged throughout the game depending on how the opposing team defense is reacting.

Of course there are issues. For one, both guys at QB need to be extremely humble for this to work. Another issue is rhythm and timing. We've seen a number of times that Orton is seemingly on fire, then Tebow goes in for one play, and Orton sucks for the next two quarters.

That being said, I think if those issues could be resolved, the potential is amazing.

Swedish Extrovert
12-04-2010, 12:39 PM
Actually a solid post. The question is can Tebow be both?

_Oro_
12-04-2010, 12:44 PM
Actually a solid post. The question is can Tebow be both?

I don't think he can be both but I can see him as being a better Roethlisberger... Without the raping.

Swedish Extrovert
12-04-2010, 01:12 PM
I don't think he can be both but I can see him as being a better Roethlisberger... Without the raping.

In other words, completely against McD's offensive system?

errand
12-04-2010, 01:20 PM
I wonder how people on here can see Orton improve his passer rating every ****ing season, throw for career highs in yards, and TD's and reduces his INTs...is on pace to shatter franchise records for yards and TD's, and passer rating and is only like 26-27 years old, and they think he isn't the future.

I'm not worried about Tebow developing, because Josh has proven he can coach QB's, and Tim will have plenty of time to watch and learn from a pretty good QB in Kyle Orton

oubronco
12-04-2010, 01:30 PM
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:VvfuhWEK7lg2IM:http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/cherizzledizzle/PissOnChiefs.jpg&t=1

TheReverend
12-04-2010, 01:35 PM
But it is hard to argue that they don't know qbs.

True. Which can also argue in Tebow's favor.

tsiguy96
12-04-2010, 01:43 PM
True. Which can also argue in Tebow's favor.

no you cant, if you could tebow would be starting. long term tehy may view tebow as better, but for right now and the forseeable future its not gonna change, hence the orton extension.

Jay3
12-04-2010, 01:45 PM
To the OP, good post. I hadn't really thought of it that way before.

_Oro_
12-04-2010, 01:52 PM
In other words, completely against McD's offensive system?

Actually no, not in those words at all.

HAT
12-04-2010, 01:59 PM
I won't argue the "Behind by X points in the 4th Q metric because it is what it is....

However, the "Orton sucks on 3rd and long" is a reach....

2010 3rd and 6+ yards:

Brady: 71.8 QBR, 53.4 %, 6.7 Y/A, 2TD, 2 INT
Manning: 60.0 QBR, 56.7%, 7.3 Y/A, 1TD, 4 INT,
Cutler: 57.8 QBR, 55.8%, 6.8 Y/A, 2TD, 4 INT
Orton: 75.3 QBR, 57.9%, 6.3 Y/A, 1TD, 1 INT

And yes, Orton & Cutler have become reverses of each other. It's like I said last year....They are basically interchangeable.

There's not a doubt in my mind that Cutler's numbers would be roughly equal to Orton's with this Bronco team (except perhaps for less sacks but more picks) and vice versa.

NFLBRONCO
12-04-2010, 02:02 PM
I wonder how people on here can see Orton improve his passer rating every ****ing season, throw for career highs in yards, and TD's and reduces his INTs...is on pace to shatter franchise records for yards and TD's, and passer rating and is only like 26-27 years old, and they think he isn't the future.

I'm not worried about Tebow developing, because Josh has proven he can coach QB's, and Tim will have plenty of time to watch and learn from a pretty good QB in Kyle Orton

Empty yards is nice but, come from behind wins is what we need not mulligans. We can go with Orton but, we better load up talent big time if we want to win alot.

TheReverend
12-04-2010, 02:02 PM
no you cant, if you could tebow would be starting. long term tehy may view tebow as better, but for right now and the forseeable future its not gonna change, hence the orton extension.

1. The extension was done in august, not last week.

2. It's also extremely possible that McDaniels views Tebow as the last little stronghold of his employment and that's why he's saving him.

3. Your opinion and what you say doesn't matter since it's merely an extension of what the FO makes public and not truly your own opinion... you may not even capable of your own opinion for all I know.

4. You're an idiot :rofl:

tsiguy96
12-04-2010, 02:10 PM
1. The extension was done in august, not last week.

2. It's also extremely possible that McDaniels views Tebow as the last little stronghold of his employment and that's why he's saving him.

3. Your opinion and what you say doesn't matter since it's merely an extension of what the FO makes public and not truly your own opinion... you may not even capable of your own opinion for all I know.

4. You're an idiot :rofl:

typical rev post. say stupid ****, followed by an attempt at witty humor, with a a few insults and an emoticon.

Lolad
12-04-2010, 02:24 PM
I won't argue the "Behind by X points in the 4th Q metric because it is what it is....

However, the "Orton sucks on 3rd and long" is a reach....

2010 3rd and 6+ yards:

Brady: 71.8 QBR, 53.4 %, 6.7 Y/A, 2TD, 2 INT
Manning: 60.0 QBR, 56.7%, 7.3 Y/A, 1TD, 4 INT,
Cutler: 57.8 QBR, 55.8%, 6.8 Y/A, 2TD, 4 INT
Orton: 75.3 QBR, 57.9%, 6.3 Y/A, 1TD, 1 INT

And yes, Orton & Cutler have become reverses of each other. It's like I said last year....They are basically interchangeable.

There's not a doubt in my mind that Cutler's numbers would be roughly equal to Orton's with this Bronco team (except perhaps for less sacks but more picks) and vice versa.

There was a horrible STAT that they showed about the Broncos and 3rd down.. I think it was 3 of 21?? Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. I think the problem with 3rd downs is the distance but thats because our coach is pass happy! If you remember last year during out 6-0 run we ran the ball on 1st and 2nd down a lot... A lot of positive runs, hardly any negative yardage. This year it's either pass, pass, pass, punt or run, pass, pass, punt.

WolfpackGuy
12-04-2010, 02:29 PM
The answer to the QB position is not on the roster.

TheReverend
12-04-2010, 02:47 PM
typical rev post. say stupid ****, followed by an attempt at witty humor, with a a few insults and an emoticon.

No, no. That's a documented fact that you change your "opinion" based on whatever the FO tells you. I have polls to back it up, though I'm sure you haven't forgotten.

misturanderson
12-04-2010, 03:05 PM
Nice post. Really pertinent observations about the mobile QB versus the pocket passer. I really like the idea of having two quarterbacks and I think Josh may be the only guy in the league who can make it work. It'd be great to see Orton and Tebow exchanged throughout the game depending on how the opposing team defense is reacting.

Of course there are issues. For one, both guys at QB need to be extremely humble for this to work. Another issue is rhythm and timing. We've seen a number of times that Orton is seemingly on fire, then Tebow goes in for one play, and Orton sucks for the next two quarters.

That being said, I think if those issues could be resolved, the potential is amazing.

It's those obvious passing downs that make or break our games offensively (really defensively as well, but that's off-topic for this thread).

In the games where Orton gets all the time in the world to find and hit his receivers (seahawks, KC) because the offensive line holds their blocks well, he has an amazing 3rd down completion percentage. In the ones where Orton is getting bullrushed from 3 different angles (Baltimore, SD, etc.), he either misses or takes a sack.

Our offensive line (along with idiotic play calling for quarter-long stretches) is the main thing holding back our offense right now. It would be nice if there was an easy way to fix that, but it may just be something that needs some time with rookies and recovering from injuries.

lostknight
12-04-2010, 04:42 PM
but make up your facts as you see fit.

That's kind of a amusing rhetorical response. When faced with a bunch of facts, basically hold on to faith, and accuse your opponent of making things up?

Welcome to my ignore list. Life's too short for irrational people.

lostknight
12-04-2010, 04:45 PM
I won't argue the "Behind by X points in the 4th Q metric because it is what it is....

However, the "Orton sucks on 3rd and long" is a reach....


2/21 in 3rd down the last two weeks. VY had a similar number of 3rds, and a similar 3rd and 10 sequences, and converted 75% of them. A much higher percentage. The reason? Mobility. Source on this is a interview with Fisher this week on Sirius.

snowspot66
12-04-2010, 04:51 PM
2/21 in 3rd down the last two weeks. VY had a similar number of 3rds, and a similar 3rd and 10 sequences, and converted 75% of them. A much higher percentage. The reason? Mobility. Source on this is a interview with Fisher this week on Sirius.

What Vince Young does doesn't make Tim Tebow ready to execute this offense.

elsid13
12-04-2010, 05:02 PM
The answer to the QB position is not on the roster.

Most likely true.

Miss I.
12-04-2010, 05:09 PM
When the Broncos have been in trouble, it's almost universally been in third down. when the Broncos are successful, it's almost overwhelmingly because thy have avoided third down altogether. Why is that? The NFL has moved to a series of tightly planned quick timed attacks and routes. Two step drops, seven step drops, and play action. Al of which have a precise timing to them. The best in the game is the chargers - the Air Croyll attacks are very precise timing routes, where separation is caused by the timing of the route itself, and only requires one or two reads.

The best quarterbacks in the league since Elway retired have been quarterbacks that excel at these very carefully times and planned routes. Brady, Manning all are captains. The sit down, diagnose, think, plan, and execute. The league is a copy cat league, and Orton is a (good) fascimilie of this trend. The problem is that the NFL has adapted to this.

These kind of passing attacks are the susceptible to moving the quarterback or the receivers "off schedule." Remember that phrase, you will hear it much more over the next few years. It's not just about pass rush, it's anything that disrupts the timing between QBs and receivers. You do this in two ways - blitzing the passer, or "chipping" the receivers - moving them off target, disrupting a play's timing.


Kyle Orton has a weird glaring problem. The worst thing in the world you can do with Kyle is put him in a situation where the Broncos are behind, and the game is on the line. His rating when the Broncos are behind 1-7 points is 30 points lower then his average. His red zone play is 15 points below his average (which is why I chuckle when the Ortonites complain about Tebow getting "the easy TDs"). 4th Quarter within 7? His average is almost 40 points below his usual . Similar drop off for the last two minutes of the first. All of the situations above are scenarios in which opposing teams focus on moving the QB and the receivers off-schedule, and Orton, and thus the Broncos are very bad in this scenario.

Some will object that any quarterback is bad, when moved off schedule. It's simply not true. To add fuel to the fire, let's compare Orton with Cutler.

Interestingly enough, Kyle Orton and Jay Cutler really are reverses of each other. Cutler is at the top of his game when it's close, and sucks when the score differential is greater then 14, while Orton get's his best marks there. Cutler clearly has stamina issues - his rating plummets when he has to pass more then 20 times again. Orton is rock solid in terms of stamina, but tends to loose it when being moved off schedule no matter what quarter it occurs in. Cutler does best when he is off schedule - his upper body strength and mobility allow him to make plays Orton can't. But if a game plan requires precise timing routes, you are screwed with Cutler, which is almost the only thing that Orton does. The exact same thing is true of all of the mobile quarterbacks - Vick and Rapesalotberger. The tighter a game is, the bigger advantage a mobile quarterback is. Cutler may suck outside the 20s and not in clutch, but allows for "complementary football."

Conversely, consider Tom Brady. His behind by less then 7 in the 4th quarter, 2 minutes left has a similar drop to Orton - 20 points lower then his average. This despite Brady having a career year. Manning, another fairly mobile quarterback, likewise has huge liability last two minutes of the first, and end of game.

To win this game, we have to go for the kill early, put them in such a huge hole, that it doesn't matter if Cassel throws for 400 yards.

Failing that, we might need to see if Tebow's mobility brings us the advantage we need to win when we are behind.

Very good post. Really well thought out and well written I think. and despite some other contrary post, I don't see this as some attack on Kyle Orton or ringing endorsement of Cutler. It struck me at any rate as a well thought out analysis of the strengths/weaknesses of both QBs in a given situation. Honestly, the only thing that stuck out to me was describing Peyton Manning as fairly mobile. I really don't see Peyton as mobile at all, not fairly, not anything. But at any rate other than that I thought it was a good read and food for thought.

fontaine
12-04-2010, 05:37 PM
Good thread.

I have to add that QB play nevers occurs in isolation. That position, more than any other depends on a number of factors succeeding in order for a successful play.

Sure, having mobile, strong and agile QB does help but the guys that have those traits AND are highly accurate passing QBs are very very rare.

Essentially what we're left with is a QB in Kyle Orton that can be successful and has been on third downs when the running game does it's part and the OL does a reasonable job. I don't think that's too much to ask.

At the end of the day you have to ask yourself this question?

What's a more likely expectation? To expect our running game and OL to be average and in that way help put the QB (no matter who it is) to be in good positions on third down?

or

Expecting us to stumble upon the next elite QB like Elway, Manning or Steve Young?

Even IF we get one of those elite QB, history has PROVEN that those guys alone can't take you all the way. They still need help from the OL/running game.

lostknight
12-04-2010, 05:43 PM
Obviously, the manning thing is a typo. I also cited VY as a call out for why mobility makes the problem better.

To me, the thing that is most important for this game is how the new young secondary does. That's going to tell the tale this week.

TheReverend
12-04-2010, 09:10 PM
That's kind of a amusing rhetorical response. When faced with a bunch of facts, basically hold on to faith, and accuse your opponent of making things up?

Welcome to my ignore list. Life's too short for irrational people.

While I enjoy reading him strictly for the lulz, I personally guarantee you that he had nothing to offer you intellectually as far as football is concerned.

tsiguy96
12-04-2010, 09:14 PM
No, no. That's a documented fact that you change your "opinion" based on whatever the FO tells you. I have polls to back it up, though I'm sure you haven't forgotten.

so people are not allowed to have different thoughts on stuff in light of new evidence. got it!

try looking at the timeline of all your "polls". or maybe its the fact that ive come to terms knowing that regardless of what i want, think or feel should happen with the team doesnt make a difference, at all.

Popps
12-04-2010, 09:37 PM
I think Kyle is better than these stats are showing right now. I'm not going to go game by game, but there have been situations in most of these close games that were out of his control. (A bad snap, Graham dropping a ball Kyle put right in his mitts, play-calling, etc.)

THAT SAID, I do think he has to show something with the game on the line. To me, that's the last frontier for the guy. He's honed his game very well, and now it's just about having the confidence to direct game winning drives.

People never thought Orton could have the kind of jump he had this year. Those same people are now saying he can't improve his game in clutch time.

I'll stay in the camp that likes Kyle, and thinks that he can indeed pull these games out and will as he matures. Of course, if Tebow can outplay him and earn the spot... what a great thing for Broncos fans... because that would mean he's playing at a very high level.

Popps
12-04-2010, 09:43 PM
There was a horrible STAT that they showed about the Broncos and 3rd down.. I think it was 3 of 21?? Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. I think the problem with 3rd downs is the distance but thats because our coach is pass happy! If you remember last year during out 6-0 run we ran the ball on 1st and 2nd down a lot... A lot of positive runs, hardly any negative yardage. This year it's either pass, pass, pass, punt or run, pass, pass, punt.

Yea, we've had some suspect play-calling recently.

If you look at Moreno's last 5 games, he averaged something like 4.5(ish) yards a carry in all but one.... scored 4 TDs and has run very well. (In addition to a couple receiving TDs, as well.)

There's no reason not to pound the rock more when your feature back is putting up these kinds of numbers. I thought really screwed the pooch with the play-calling against the Rams. We could have kept our defense off the field much more that day.

As for the "crunch time" stats, you're also correct that not all crunch-time stats are the same. For instance, you can be down by 7 with 40 seconds left... starting from your 20.... or down by 7 with 2 minutes left, starting from your 35. Obviously, play-calling is affected greatly. I just don't recall many games where I thought Kyle SHOULD have won... and lost. In other words, where he screwed up what should have been an easy comeback. He's been in a lot of pass-only situations, late in a game... and no, he's not Peyton Manning.

But, again... I do think he can and will do better in those situations.

tsiguy96
12-04-2010, 09:45 PM
Yea, we've had some suspect play-calling recently.

If you look at Moreno's last 5 games, he averaged something like 4.5(ish) yards a carry in all but one.... scored 4 TDs and has run very well. (In addition to a couple receiving TDs, as well.)

There's no reason not to pound the rock more when your feature back is putting up these kinds of numbers. I thought really screwed the pooch with the play-calling against the Rams. We could have kept our defense off the field much more that day.

As for the "crunch time" stats, you're also correct that not all crunch-time stats are the same. For instance, you can be down by 7 with 40 seconds left... starting from your 20.... or down by 7 with 2 minutes left, starting from your 35. Obviously, play-calling is affected greatly. I just don't recall many games where I thought Kyle SHOULD have won... and lost. In other words, where he screwed up what should have been an easy comeback. He's been in a lot of pass-only situations, late in a game... and now, he's not Peyton Manning.

But, again... I do think he can and will do better in those situations.

at one point against the rams, denver threw it 8 times in a row in the first half. im pretty sure that will never happen in the first half of a game again, atleast i hope.

Popps
12-04-2010, 09:49 PM
at one point against the rams, denver threw it 8 times in a row in the first half. im pretty sure that will never happen in the first half of a game again, atleast i hope.

The real problems began when we were up 3, I believe. It was clear momentum was shifting, and we needed to slow the game down. We came out throwing, 3 and out.. and the whole thing went in the ****ter.

Our line has looked MUCH better the last 4-5 weeks. Something has come together. We need to be exploiting that and forcing defenses to stay honest... and keeping our defense off the field.

lostknight
12-04-2010, 09:58 PM
Yea, we've had some suspect play-calling recently.


Lately? Last year, Josh refused to let Orton open up down the field. That's the difference between last years passing attack and this years

If you look at Moreno's last 5 games, he averaged something like 4.5(ish) yards a carry in all but one....

4.7 over the last three.

There's no reason not to pound the rock more when your feature back is putting up these kinds of numbers. I thought really screwed the pooch with the play-calling against the Rams. We could have kept our defense off the field much more that day.


Yes.

lostknight
12-04-2010, 10:00 PM
The real problems began when we were up 3, I believe. It was clear momentum was shifting, and we needed to slow the game down. We came out throwing, 3 and out.. and the whole thing went in the ****ter.


I think Josh tries to get too cute with his play selection to disguise his intent. There is a real aspect of good football teams where it's just as simple as this:

"Hey ****ers. You know what's coming. Think you can stop this?"

Our line has looked MUCH better the last 4-5 weeks. Something has come together. We need to be exploiting that and forcing defenses to stay honest... and keeping our defense off the field.

Combo of Moreno, and the o-line finally working. Remember that we lost arguably one of the best o-line coaches in the NFL in Dennison. We also lost inarguable the best running backs coach.

ScottXray
12-04-2010, 10:35 PM
I think Josh tries to get too cute with his play selection to disguise his intent. There is a real aspect of good football teams where it's just as simple as this:

"Hey ****ers. You know what's coming. Think you can stop this?"


Combo of Moreno, and the o-line finally working. Remember that we lost arguably one of the best o-line coaches in the NFL in Dennison. We also lost inarguable the best running backs coach.

We also had an injured Clady, Harris, and Kuper for parts of the year, and different starters at at least 2 O-line positions for the first 8 games. Not to mention a rookie Center, and another rookie that was playing RT because of
Harris being out. O-lines have to build consistency and they do that by knowing what the other guys on the line can and will do in every situatuion .

The Run game started to pick up when we finally got the line in place that we expected to have after the draft.

Clady, Beadles, Walton, Kuper, Harris.

McD does need to stick with the run more than he has, cause Moreno needs to have a little groove/momentum going. Running once in 8 plays doesn't fit the bill.

McD screwed up last week by going pass happy again in the 2nd, third quarters. It IS possible to call two run plays in a row, something he forgot for a while (AGAIN). It actually might surprise the other D if he would run on more than first down, even if it is only a 2 yard gain.

This is one of his biggest weakness's...outsmarting himself and calling plays that break the teams groove ( such as Tebow in for One play on first or second down when things are moving, or Calling three bubble screens in a row for negative yardage. )

If he can get past that kind of stupidity he would be much better at keeping drives going.

strafen
12-04-2010, 10:40 PM
We also had an injured Clady, Harris, and Kuper for parts of the year, and different starters at at least 2 O-line positions for the first 8 games. Not to mention a rookie Center, and another rookie that was playing RT because of
Harris being out. O-lines have to build consistency and they do that by knowing what the other guys on the line can and will do in every situatuion .

The Run game started to pick up when we finally got the line in place that we expected to have after the draft.

Clady, Beadles, Walton, Kuper, Harris.

McD does need to stick with the run more than he has, cause Moreno needs to have a little groove/momentum going. Running once in 8 plays doesn't fit the bill.

McD screwed up last week by going pass happy again in the 2nd, third quarters. It IS possible to call two run plays in a row, something he forgot for a while (AGAIN). It actually might surprise the other D if he would run on more than first down, even if it is only a 2 yard gain.

This is one of his biggest weakness's...outsmarting himself and calling plays that break the teams groove ( such as Tebow in for One play on first or second down when things are moving, or Calling three bubble screens in a row for negative yardage. )

If he can get past that kind of stupidity he would be much better at keeping drives going.McDaniels is a very predictable coach not for the things he does, but for the things he wouldn't do...

lostknight
12-05-2010, 02:53 PM
at one point against the rams, denver threw it 8 times in a row in the first half. im pretty sure that will never happen in the first half of a game again, atleast i hope.

It happened in the second half this week?

dsmoot
12-05-2010, 03:18 PM
I wonder how people on here can see Orton improve his passer rating every ****ing season, throw for career highs in yards, and TD's and reduces his INTs...is on pace to shatter franchise records for yards and TD's, and passer rating and is only like 26-27 years old, and they think he isn't the future.

I'm not worried about Tebow developing, because Josh has proven he can coach QB's, and Tim will have plenty of time to watch and learn from a pretty good QB in Kyle Orton

5 - 17 record, poor 3rd down & 4th quarter performance, inability to improvise plays to sustain drives (especially with game on line), turnovers in critical situations, inflated stats due to severely imbalanced offense, can't think of any game he put the team on his shoulders and won it.


With all that being said, Kyle had a big jump this year. I don't know what more Tebow can learn from watching Kyle. The best of all situations is that Tebow comes in next year and flat out wins the competition rather be handed the job. This would be best on all levels. For the remaining part of the year, Tebow should get real playing time. Orton should have a short leash.

tsiguy96
12-05-2010, 04:30 PM
It happened in the second half this week?

sad face

CEH
12-05-2010, 04:38 PM
Where are all the all "Orton just needs a running game and defense"

I think we all see what Orton is : a player not a leader.

Watch Matty Ice if you want to see a leader

Short hoping WR all game long, statue in the pocket

I can't wait to trade Orton for that 2md round pick

mhgaffney
12-05-2010, 05:02 PM
The great QBs love pressure and rise to the occasion.

Elway was that kind of QB.

I am sick and tired of the Orton apologists.

mhgaffney
12-05-2010, 05:04 PM
If Shanny were coaching -- Moreno would be averaging 5+ yards a carry.

Period. End of story.

tsiguy96
12-05-2010, 05:05 PM
The great QBs love pressure and rise to the occasion.

Elway was that kind of QB.

I am sick and tired of the Orton apologists.

do they really boil your blood? god forbid people here cheer for and hope that a DENVER BRONCO does good. they should go off themselves, what is wrong with them?

we need to be negative whiney babies in order to not be apologists around here.

fontaine
12-05-2010, 05:05 PM
Where are all the all "Orton just needs a running game and defense"
I think we all see what Orton is : a player not a leader.

Watch Matty Ice if you want to see a leader

Short hoping WR all game long, statue in the pocket

I can't wait to trade Orton for that 2md round pick

I was saying that.

One lousy game by Orton isn't going to change that. No matter who the QB is we're still going to need a solid ground game and an improved defense.

Some people want to start Tebow or give him extended time at the expense of actually trying to win games then that's their opinion.

I want the best QB to play. Call me selfish but I want this team to win rather than be an test team to see what a backup QB can do.

OABB
12-05-2010, 05:07 PM
If Shanny were coaching -- Moreno would be averaging 5+ yards a carry.

Period. End of story.

End of what story? Isn't this a qb thread?

Dr. Broncenstein
12-05-2010, 05:13 PM
I'm just going to leave this link here.

It's an article about Cutler becoming a winner (http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/32949/no-disputing-now-jay-cutler-is-a-winner).

Not my words. Posting it mainly for the lulz, so suck it.

orangemonkey
12-05-2010, 05:19 PM
I'm just going to leave this link here.

It's an article about Cutler becoming a winner (http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/32949/no-disputing-now-jay-cutler-is-a-winner).

Not my words. Posting it mainly for the lulz, so suck it.


This quote is very relevant to our current situation:

"More than anything, winners make sure their team wins. No player has more control over the outcome than a quarterback"

WolfpackGuy
12-05-2010, 05:20 PM
I'm just going to leave this link here.

It's an article about Cutler becoming a winner (http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/32949/no-disputing-now-jay-cutler-is-a-winner).

Not my words. Posting it mainly for the lulz, so suck it.

Interchangeable!

LOL