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montrose
12-02-2010, 08:08 PM
Peter King of SI was on 87.7 The Ticket - http://877theticket.com/page.php?page_id=43#vmix_media_id=29719471

On McSpyGate: If it did happen as the Broncos said – why would Steve Scarneccia commit career suicide? Asked people around the league the difference between what the Broncos did and Patriots did, obviously the Broncos did far less than 1% of what the Pats did but was told that the information taped in a walkthrough would provide far more info than hand signals. Would’ve liked to see a 3rd or 4th rounder taken to reinforce the importance of competitive balance.

On Scarneccia: Put yourself in his shoes, you’re getting stuff ready for Sunday and no one is watching me. We just got beat 9,000-nothing and have to win this game. I can do something that can really help us win this game. King states that’s not fact but just trying to think of motivation.
On McDaniels’ involvement: It is as preposterous or more so that McD would direct him to do this as it would mean career suicide for McD. No one in the NFL would ever hire McD again if they found out he directed Scarneccia did it. In King’s opinion, there is no way McD would ever direct Scarneccia to do it as his dream job of an NFL coach would go away and never return.

On McDaniels job: Things are looking bad for him, but need to consider something. While no one can guarantee McD will win, in his last 2-3 years with New England – everyone who knew the Patriots very well said McD could be a very special football coach. King has spent a lot of time with him and thinks he is a very bright coach, does he have a good personal staff? No. But if you blow it up and start over with someone else’s players – it will be another X number of years before you get it going in the right direction. You may not have a choice if things go down in flames the last month here but before that’s done – think about the alternative.

On the possibility of surrounding McD with a personnel guy and assistants: Never asked him but if McD had the chance to bring in a smart personnel guy and didn’t do it he’d be making a huge mistake and deserve what he gets. McD has to look at some of his personnel moves and realize they’re dumb. King says he’s a guy who supports McD and he deserves another year to make things right with a healthy Dumervil and Ayers. Also believes they need to go out and get a personnel guy and give McD a chance to be the co-King of the castle because it’s not working as set up right now.

On the image of the Broncos nationally: Perceived as a franchise a drift because most believe that if they have a bad month they’ll blow up and start over again. The image of the franchise is not as laughable as some local fans may think. There’s tremendous respect in the football and broadcast world for Pat Bowlen and what he’s built. There’s even more respect for the passionate following of the Broncos. King says every year at HOF time he’s overwhelmed with e-mails about the lack of Broncos and east-coast bias. King enjoys that because it shows the passion and says there is no market that cares as much about its team than Denver from the reaction he gets. Two lousy years can’t spoil that, no matter how the year finishes the 2011 season opener will be backed at Invesco with fans going nuts for their team, two years can’t spoil that.

oubronco
12-02-2010, 08:15 PM
Getting a real GM and better assistants will help McD keep his job otherwise I don't think he'll make it too long

Denver724
12-02-2010, 08:21 PM
I just read on the ESPN "Rumors" section that Mike McCoy is in the hunt to get the head coaching job in Carolina. Hard for me to believe.

Carolina's next coach

John Fox is currently the coach of the Carolina Panthers. But you won't find too many people who think that will still be the case once the 2010 season is over.

The discussion has already shifted to who will replace Fox, and ESPN NFC South blogger Pat Yasinskas offered up some ideas Thursday. "The guys I'm kind of keeping an eye on at this point are Arizona assistant Russ Grimm (has ties to Marty Hurney), Denver offensive coordinator Mike McCoy (former Carolina quarterbacks coach) and Jets offensive coordinator Brian Schottenheimer (a rising star)," Yasinskas writes. "Is a defensive coach also a possibility? Yes, but my hunch is the Panthers will go with an offensive guy after nine years of very conservative and dull offense."

As we wrote Thursday, Jon Gruden's name will likely continue to come up for NFL openings now that it doesn't look as though he'll take the coaching gig at the University of Miami, and he certainly fits the offensive-minded criteria laid out by Yasinskas.

broncosteven
12-02-2010, 08:22 PM
Peter King of SI was on 87.7 The Ticket - http://877theticket.com/page.php?page_id=43#vmix_media_id=29719471
... King says every year at HOF time he’s overwhelmed with e-mails about the lack of Broncos and east-coast bias. King enjoys that because it shows the passion and says there is no market that cares as much about its team than Denver from the reaction he gets....

LOL I didn't claim east coast bias but I sent him an Email last year asking him to consider Floyd for the HOF.

frerottenextelway
12-02-2010, 08:26 PM
I wonder where Fox will end up. I think he would be an asset to any staff.

KipCorrington25
12-02-2010, 08:40 PM
I've sent that guy more than a couple ranting emails regarding perceived slights on the Broncos so it's good to see he's paying attention.

WolfpackGuy
12-02-2010, 08:41 PM
I'm sure he'd rather resign than work under a GM.

It's a win-win situation.

Mr. Elway
12-02-2010, 08:53 PM
A reasonable take IMO. I myself have calmed down quite a bit since the Raiders game and believe it's in our best interest to give McD another year. I strongly agree that he has taken on too much though and we need a real GM.

Chris
12-02-2010, 09:45 PM
Thanks for the cliff notes. I love the last bit.

spdirty
12-02-2010, 11:50 PM
**** giving him a GM. He came in here with the Goodmans and they got run off. So **** him, he wanted to do it this way, no point in making excuses for the prick. He has a buddy hand picked GM in Brian Xanders. They haven't gotten it done and brought about the worst period the Broncos have suffered through since I've been alive. Time to either start new or time for Bowlen to sell the team.

He is a bad coach, a terrible personnel guy, a ****ty person, and a cheater. And 98% of those that care about the Broncos don't want him here. Time for him to go back to Boston and suck on daddy's tit a little longer. He isn't ready and he probably never will be. And the day he is gone is the day when we truly (hopefully) start to pick up the pieces of this mess he left and start to rebuild. Hopefully with Elway.

footstepsfrom#27
12-03-2010, 12:01 AM
On McDaniels’ involvement: It is as preposterous or more so that McD would direct him to do this as it would mean career suicide for McD. No one in the NFL would ever hire McD again if they found out he directed Scarneccia did it. In King’s opinion, there is no way McD would ever direct Scarneccia to do it as his dream job of an NFL coach would go away and never return.
The same could be said about Belicheat...why would he risk it? Well as you can see, it paid off handsomely and he's still there isn't he? McD is a guy who seems to immitate his mentor, right down to the hoodie and the arrogance. It's not to difficult to imagine him following the same line of thinking, especially if he was privvy to all this in NE to begin with, and as OC and QB coach, how could he possibly NOT have known? I'm not saying he did it, but it's certainly not hard to imagine him thinking he could follow the same route Belicheat did and probably get away with it.

Archer81
12-03-2010, 12:03 AM
I am absolutely amazed that people call this coach arrogant(which he is, but isnt that a prereq for head coach?)...did some of you forget the last 14 years?

The sooner this season can wrap up the better.

Wow.

:Broncos:

Bronco Yoda
12-03-2010, 12:05 AM
Peter King of SI was on 87.7 The Ticket - http://877theticket.com/page.php?page_id=43#vmix_media_id=29719471

King says every year at HOF time he’s overwhelmed with e-mails about the lack of Broncos and east-coast bias. King enjoys that because it shows the passion and says there is no market that cares as much about its team than Denver from the reaction he gets. Two lousy years can’t spoil that, no matter how the year finishes the 2011 season opener will be backed at Invesco with fans going nuts for their team, two years can’t spoil that.

I guess he got my emails then ?:giggle:

spdirty
12-03-2010, 12:09 AM
I am absolutely amazed that people call this coach arrogant(which he is, but isnt that a prereq for head coach?)...did some of you forget the last 14 years?

At least Shanahan had a reason to be arrogant.

Caveat Lector
12-03-2010, 12:23 AM
I just read on the ESPN "Rumors" section that Mike McCoy is in the hunt to get the head coaching job in Carolina. Hard for me to believe.

Carolina's next coach

John Fox is currently the coach of the Carolina Panthers. But you won't find too many people who think that will still be the case once the 2010 season is over.

The discussion has already shifted to who will replace Fox, and ESPN NFC South blogger Pat Yasinskas offered up some ideas Thursday. "The guys I'm kind of keeping an eye on at this point are Arizona assistant Russ Grimm (has ties to Marty Hurney), Denver offensive coordinator Mike McCoy (former Carolina quarterbacks coach) and Jets offensive coordinator Brian Schottenheimer (a rising star)," Yasinskas writes. "Is a defensive coach also a possibility? Yes, but my hunch is the Panthers will go with an offensive guy after nine years of very conservative and dull offense."

As we wrote Thursday, Jon Gruden's name will likely continue to come up for NFL openings now that it doesn't look as though he'll take the coaching gig at the University of Miami, and he certainly fits the offensive-minded criteria laid out by Yasinskas.

I thought the whole reason McCoy came to Denver was that he is a California guy and wanted to move back to the West. But whatever...

strafen
12-03-2010, 12:28 AM
I thought the whole reason McCoy came to Denver was that he is a California guy and wanted to move back to the West. But whatever...

Perhaps, but I don't think he would pass up on a headcoach gig no matter where is at. JMO

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-03-2010, 12:31 AM
I'm sure he'd rather resign than work under a GM.

It's a win-win situation.

You're sure? Based on what, exactly?

Oh, right. Your flawless opinion. Awesome take.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-03-2010, 12:32 AM
**** giving him a GM. He came in here with the Goodmans and they got run off. So **** him, he wanted to do it this way, no point in making excuses for the prick. He has a buddy hand picked GM in Brian Xanders. They haven't gotten it done and brought about the worst period the Broncos have suffered through since I've been alive. Time to either start new or time for Bowlen to sell the team.

He is a bad coach, a terrible personnel guy, a ****ty person, and a cheater. And 98% of those that care about the Broncos don't want him here. Time for him to go back to Boston and suck on daddy's tit a little longer. He isn't ready and he probably never will be. And the day he is gone is the day when we truly (hopefully) start to pick up the pieces of this mess he left and start to rebuild. Hopefully with Elway.

But hey, at least you're reasonable in your conclusions. Not over the top at all.

Popps
12-03-2010, 01:08 AM
Peter King of SI was on 87.7 The Ticket - http://877theticket.com/page.php?page_id=43#vmix_media_id=29719471
The image of the franchise is not as laughable as some local fans may think. There’s tremendous respect in the football and broadcast world for Pat Bowlen and what he’s built. There’s even more respect for the passionate following of the Broncos. King says every year at HOF time he’s overwhelmed with e-mails about the lack of Broncos and east-coast bias. King enjoys that because it shows the passion and says there is no market that cares as much about its team than Denver from the reaction he gets. Two lousy years can’t spoil that, no matter how the year finishes the 2011 season opener will be backed at Invesco with fans going nuts for their team, two years can’t spoil that.

Amen.

Great read, Montrose. Thanks for posting.

Taco John
12-03-2010, 01:16 AM
But if you blow it up and start over with someone else’s players – it will be another X number of years before you get it going in the right direction. You may not have a choice if things go down in flames the last month here but before that’s done – think about the alternative.

Uh, let's see. Keep the guy who gets out coached by the likes of Tom Cable and Mike Singletary... Or bring in a tree stump, throw a whistle and a hat on top of it and carve the word coach, and hope it pulls a program together in a couple years.

Coach Stump has a nice ring to it.

Of course, Josh turns into coach stump once we're losing, so maybe we should just ride him out for a couple more years and hope for the best.

ton80
12-03-2010, 01:35 AM
If one could say that the Broncos offense would explode if their offensive line was more consistent, then I would say wait until next year. Here is how I see it.

McD's offense is ****in primed. Once our rookie o-lineman enter season two, Clady will be over one year removed from a serious knee surgery and Harris will have healed further from his injuries. With Lloyd, Moreno, D. Thomas, and Royal our offense may be very hard to stop.

Hulamau
12-03-2010, 04:13 AM
Getting a real GM and better assistants will help McD keep his job otherwise I don't think he'll make it too long

Yep thats a good move and adding Elway & some high profile swagger to help take the spotlight a little more off of Josh would be a good move as well.

And like King said , getting Elvis and Ayers back alone already helps out D a ton and we need a home run in Draft and FA on the D and at RT and suddenly we are in the thick of it again.

Agree very much its better to let Josh have another year with the right help around him. Its too much heat for any one guy, particularly a young guy just starting out.

Josh too will learn from his mistakes. Would rather we be the beneficiaries of that hard knocks education we are all having to endure rather than gift wrap the rewards for some other team and city.

How badly would it suck to can Josh now in the heat of emotion only to see him go on to win a series of SB in the coming years for someone else, courtesy of our misfortune???

I trust that cooler and more forward thinking heads will take everything into account, including the pending ??? on the next season, the injuries this year that have been a huge mountain no other coach would have overcome either with this team of players and the list of key revolving injuries all season long.

Some may have done a bit better and not made as many tactical and personnel mistakes as Josh has, and for sure those mistakes should be and can be corrected without necessarily canning Josh.

But if clear thinking is applied to this thing, perhaps they find a way to be damned sure Josh cant handle the role of Head coach before firing him after year two with all that has happened.

Thats what I hope. If Josh has to go, lets make sure its because he cant adapt his considerable talents and football knowledge to be a head coach at this time and it is mostly ONLY his shortcomings that are the main reason for our walk through the Valley of the Shadow the last years.

Mountain Bronco
12-03-2010, 09:01 AM
**** giving him a GM. He came in here with the Goodmans and they got run off. So **** him, he wanted to do it this way, no point in making excuses for the prick. He has a buddy hand picked GM in Brian Xanders. They haven't gotten it done and brought about the worst period the Broncos have suffered through since I've been alive. Time to either start new or time for Bowlen to sell the team.

He is a bad coach, a terrible personnel guy, a ****ty person, and a cheater. And 98% of those that care about the Broncos don't want him here. Time for him to go back to Boston and suck on daddy's tit a little longer. He isn't ready and he probably never will be. And the day he is gone is the day when we truly (hopefully) start to pick up the pieces of this mess he left and start to rebuild. Hopefully with Elway.


This is the type of unreasoned hate that is really not necessary. You have no idea whay type of person he is other than at his job and please don't speak for 98% of Broncos fans. In fact this board and the many others like it probably only represent 2% of the total broncos fans and it being the interwebs, is so far from reality it is scary.

Get a grip.

strafen
12-03-2010, 09:10 AM
This is the type of unreasoned hate that is really not necessary. You have no idea whay type of person he is other than at his job and please don't speak for 98% of Broncos fans. In fact this board and the many others like it probably only represent 2% of the total broncos fans and it being the interwebs, is so far from reality it is scary.

Get a grip.
Let me play devil's advocate here.
This is not unreasonable hate.
Hate?
Man, we're going thru some tough times here.
This is a team McDaniels inherited that was a play-off contender. We were one win away from the play-offs in 2008, and again last year.
This year, we're struggling just not to be the worst team in the whole NFL!

If you listen to the radio, message boards and people anywhere in general, the majoritiy I've spoken to don't want Mcdaniels here.

TonyR
12-03-2010, 09:12 AM
He has a buddy hand picked GM in Brian Xanders.

Fyi, Xanders was here before McDaniels.

Kaylore
12-03-2010, 09:13 AM
I still say bring in a very strong GM and give him a lot of power. Make it so that McD "has" to defer to him on a variety of issues - like the draft and especially assistant coaches. Do this so much so that if he doesn't agree it will be very difficult to work comfortably and he will either play along, get fed up and resign or be fired for insubordination. In the first case he gets one more year and we bleed out the rest of Shanny's contract and then can fire McDaniels if next season is bad. If he resigns or is fired for insubordination we're off the hook for his contract.

PRBronco
12-03-2010, 09:24 AM
Fyi, Xanders was here before McDaniels.

Oh snap. Owned by facts!

BroncoBuff
12-03-2010, 09:25 AM
On McSpyGate: If it did happen as the Broncos said – why would Steve Scarneccia commit career suicide?

On McDaniels’ involvement: It is as preposterous or more so that McD would direct him to do this as it would mean career suicide for McD. No one in the NFL would ever hire McD again if they found out he directed Scarneccia did it.
Bad logic, Pete. People do stupid things that risk career suicide all the time, over and over, especially in superheated competitive fields like sports, politics and law.

Based on Pete's logic, the Patriots must not have done anything wrong - they were not guilty - because such actions would have risked career suicides. Josh was knee deep in the Pats thing, so there's almost no way he had any part in this. Now THAT'S logic.


On McDaniels job: Things are looking bad for him, but need to consider something. While no one can guarantee McD will win, in his last 2-3 years with New England – everyone who knew the Patriots very well said McD could be a very special football coach.

Come on, Pete. Coach and head coach are two VERY different jobs, about the only thing they have common is the word 'coach.' There are personal traits that can be assessed, but it's 90% speculation to "know" Josh or any other coordinator will succeed or fail as head coaches. NFL history is littered with successful coordinators who hydrogen-bombed as head coaches.

DarkHorse30
12-03-2010, 09:49 AM
McD's offense is ****in primed. Once our rookie o-lineman enter season two, Clady will be over one year removed from a serious knee surgery and Harris will have healed further from his injuries. With Lloyd, Moreno, D. Thomas, and Royal our offense may be very hard to stop.

I agree. Can't wait to see what happens as they all get healthier and more familiar with "the system".

Patience is extremely difficult to muster as of late....but what else am I gonna do?

Hulamau
12-03-2010, 09:50 AM
He has a buddy hand picked GM in Brian Xanders.

Fyi, Xanders was here before McDaniels.

Its clear TonyR, spdirty and 'the facts' aren't on speaking terms.

Gort
12-03-2010, 10:01 AM
at this point, it's in the interest of all Broncos fans to see McD succeed. we get back to relevance more quickly if we don't have to make a coaching change. if Bowlen is not going to fire him (and let's be real, he's not ready to fire him), then we should all want to see McD learn from his mistakes as quickly as possible and hopefully have a successful tenure here. anyway, demanding that he be fired and for the Broncos to start all over again with somebody new is really not understanding that they are demanding that this awful period of Broncos football to be extended a couple of years longer than it needs to be.

i haven't been happy about McD's game day issues. but the time for b****ing and moaning is over. i want him to be successful because i want this team to be successful. it's that simple. as of today, everything he's done to irritate me is water under the bridge. from this week's game forward, McD has a clean slate with me. just give the team the best chance to win each week. respect the team's history. beat our division rivals. improve from week to week. if he does all of that, what can a Broncos fan be unhappy about?

lostknight
12-03-2010, 10:21 AM
Couple of points
a) Do we believe that Josh will be a better head coach? Without the canning that a first time head coach usually needs, before they are decent (no more rookie head coaches).
b) What free agent in their right mind is going to go a (possibly) three win team?
c) What coach in their right mind - given everything published about the Nolan situation, and the leaks from Josh's coaching staff - is going to be willing to work for Josh?

B & C are what keep me up at night. The only way to fix B&C is either to start winning with the staff we have now, or flush the turds down the drain.

Popps
12-03-2010, 10:31 AM
i haven't been happy about McD's game day issues. but the time for b****ing and moaning is over. i want him to be successful because i want this team to be successful. it's that simple.

Bingo.


Sweeping KC would be a nice start. Just sayin'.

gyldenlove
12-03-2010, 10:49 AM
Couple of points
a) Do we believe that Josh will be a better head coach? Without the canning that a first time head coach usually needs, before they are decent (no more rookie head coaches).
b) What free agent in their right mind is going to go a (possibly) three win team?
c) What coach in their right mind - given everything published about the Nolan situation, and the leaks from Josh's coaching staff - is going to be willing to work for Josh?

B & C are what keep me up at night. The only way to fix B&C is either to start winning with the staff we have now, or flush the turds down the drain.

A) I believe Mcdaniels right now is doing too much, he needs to be dialed back to controlling the offense (which he is good at). If we get a DC who knows his ass from his elbow that will improve the team tremendously.
B) I am not too worried about that, firstly free agency is not where we should be focusing, secondly we are not the Raiders or Lions yet, this is a one season thing for now.
C) It is not working for Josh, it is working for Ellis/our new GM. We need to make very sure that the power structure does not end with Mcdaniels, it has to end with a GM.

lostknight
12-03-2010, 10:53 AM
C) It is not working for Josh, it is working for Ellis/our new GM. We need to make very sure that the power structure does not end with Mcdaniels, it has to end with a GM.

I don't agree with this. Coaches have to be responsible to the head coach.

HAT
12-03-2010, 11:26 AM
Its clear TonyR, spdirty and 'the facts' aren't on speaking terms.

...98% of the time. ;D

gyldenlove
12-03-2010, 11:32 AM
I don't agree with this. Coaches have to be responsible to the head coach.

That is how it has become in many places, but it doesn't have to be like that. There are certainly teams where the GM/president is the power player and the coaching staff ultimately report to that person.

lifeafter elway
12-03-2010, 11:46 AM
I think McD needs to get another year, hopefully with a true GM. I am not happy with our current team, and think - at this point, it's pretty obvious that he was not mature enough to be a head coach.

But, He does have qualities that make me root for him. Arrogance withstanding - you can see, during games and during press conferences, this guy want to win more than anything. He is absolutely elated when we succeed, and is crushed when we lose. Surround him with Blue Chip football people, and control and focus that passion - and I think he can get this turned around in the next couple years.

The team is moving in the right direction. There are flashes of hope there. What is missing is talent at obvious positions, and a mental toughness. I think a GM can fix the talent issue - and I think knowing your not walking into a gun fight with a knife will help the mental toughness.

But please get this man a true GM. Don't let him ruin another draft.

tsiguy96
12-03-2010, 11:52 AM
I think McD needs to get another year, hopefully with a true GM. I am not happy with our current team, and think - at this point, it's pretty obvious that he was not mature enough to be a head coach.

But, He does have qualities that make me root for him. Arrogance withstanding - you can see, during games and during press conferences, this guy want to win more than anything. He is absolutely elated when we succeed, and is crushed when we lose. Surround him with Blue Chip football people, and control and focus that passion - and I think he can get this turned around in the next couple years.

The team is moving in the right direction. There are flashes of hope there. What is missing is talent at obvious positions, and a mental toughness. I think a GM can fix the talent issue - and I think knowing your not walking into a gun fight with a knife will help the mental toughness.

But please get this man a true GM. Don't let him ruin another draft.

i wouldnt say hes ruined any drafts, but they certainly havent been top notch. theyve gotten some real players out of these last few, guys you know will be here more than a few years, which is not true of the last decade or so.

ZONA
12-03-2010, 11:58 AM
**** giving him a GM. He came in here with the Goodmans and they got run off. So **** him, he wanted to do it this way, no point in making excuses for the prick. He has a buddy hand picked GM in Brian Xanders. They haven't gotten it done and brought about the worst period the Broncos have suffered through since I've been alive. Time to either start new or time for Bowlen to sell the team.

He is a bad coach, a terrible personnel guy, a ****ty person, and a cheater. And 98% of those that care about the Broncos don't want him here. Time for him to go back to Boston and suck on daddy's tit a little longer. He isn't ready and he probably never will be. And the day he is gone is the day when we truly (hopefully) start to pick up the pieces of this mess he left and start to rebuild. Hopefully with Elway.

Sell the team? Good lord you are the very definition of over reaction. Put down the coffee and mosnter and go take a walk in the park or something and calm down a bit. McD is not going anywhere at leat for another year so try not to give yourself a stroke.

Mountain Bronco
12-03-2010, 03:31 PM
SP, the profanity and calling someone you don't know other than newspaper articles and TV a ****ty person is hate in my book, but to each their own.

And I totaly understand if the people you talk to want McD gone, look at your reaction, of course they wouldn't say anything else. I am on the fence. I think he could be a great coach in the right situation, but he isn't in the right situation now, with the people surrounding him. If front office changes are made, I say give him another year.

Missouribronc
12-03-2010, 03:59 PM
Couple of points
a) Do we believe that Josh will be a better head coach? Without the canning that a first time head coach usually needs, before they are decent (no more rookie head coaches).

Sean Payton, Mike Tomlin, Jon Gruden, Brian Billick, Mike Holmgren.

All of those coaches above were never fired before winning a Super Bowl. And no coach has ever won a Super Bowl in two different cities. (Wait - did Shula do it?)

b) What free agent in their right mind is going to go a (possibly) three win team?

Dunno, happens all the time, though. Don't have to look much further than than the team Denver plays this week for some.

c) What coach in their right mind - given everything published about the Nolan situation, and the leaks from Josh's coaching staff - is going to be willing to work for Josh?

All head coaches are arrogant and want it done their way. By this reasoning, no one would ever work in the NFL.

BroncoLifer
12-03-2010, 04:21 PM
Josh was knee deep in the Pats thing, so there's almost no way he had any part in this. Now THAT'S logic.



Post hoc ergo propter hoc? Logic tells us that correlation is not causation.

footstepsfrom#27
12-03-2010, 08:55 PM
Post hoc ergo propter hoc? Logic tells us that correlation is not causation.
You mean correlation is not necessarily causation...and neither is it excluded.

Inkana7
12-03-2010, 09:01 PM
**** giving him a GM. He came in here with the Goodmans and they got run off. So **** him, he wanted to do it this way, no point in making excuses for the prick. He has a buddy hand picked GM in Brian Xanders. They haven't gotten it done and brought about the worst period the Broncos have suffered through since I've been alive. Time to either start new or time for Bowlen to sell the team.

He is a bad coach, a terrible personnel guy, a ****ty person, and a cheater. And 98% of those that care about the Broncos don't want him here. Time for him to go back to Boston and suck on daddy's tit a little longer. He isn't ready and he probably never will be. And the day he is gone is the day when we truly (hopefully) start to pick up the pieces of this mess he left and start to rebuild. Hopefully with Elway.

Hahahahaha. This was just your run of the mill "I hate McDaniels" post until you added the "Hopefully with Elway" bit. Oh man, thats awesome.

"McD sucks! He's too inexperienced to ever be good!"

"But I want Elway, who's never, ever worked as a coach or GM in the NFL!"

BroncoBuff
12-03-2010, 09:23 PM
Post hoc ergo propter hoc? Logic tells us that correlation is not causation.

Fair enough. Josh's likely non-involvement was not CAUSED by Patriot-gate, but Patriot-gate doubtless informed that non-involvement.

If your reference was to the 'knee-deep' comment, causation is airtight. To wit: If defensive signals were stolen, the offensive play-caller by necessity must have been informed. Otherwise, what's the point?

lostknight
12-03-2010, 09:30 PM
All head coaches are arrogant and want it done their way. By this reasoning, no one would ever work in the NFL.

I think we can all agree at this that Josh is extra special when it comes to talent that isn't his. If the rumors about him even micromanaging the cheer-leaders is correct, he clearly has authority issues.

Homer Simpson
12-03-2010, 09:34 PM
I think we can all agree at this that Josh is extra special when it comes to talent that isn't his. If the rumors about him even micromanaging the cheer-leaders is correct, he clearly has authority issues.

:rofl:

What??

HAT
12-03-2010, 10:07 PM
:rofl:

What??

He yelled at a parking lot attendant once too. He is Evil!

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
12-03-2010, 10:35 PM
I still say bring in a very strong GM and give him a lot of power. Make it so that McD "has" to defer to him on a variety of issues - like the draft and especially assistant coaches. Do this so much so that if he doesn't agree it will be very difficult to work comfortably and he will either play along, get fed up and resign or be fired for insubordination. In the first case he gets one more year and we bleed out the rest of Shanny's contract and then can fire McDaniels if next season is bad. If he resigns or is fired for insubordination we're off the hook for his contract.

Love this idea. Glad to have you back!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-03-2010, 11:12 PM
I think McD needs to get another year, hopefully with a true GM. I am not happy with our current team, and think - at this point, it's pretty obvious that he was not mature enough to be a head coach.

But, He does have qualities that make me root for him. Arrogance withstanding - you can see, during games and during press conferences, this guy want to win more than anything. He is absolutely elated when we succeed, and is crushed when we lose. Surround him with Blue Chip football people, and control and focus that passion - and I think he can get this turned around in the next couple years.

The team is moving in the right direction. There are flashes of hope there. What is missing is talent at obvious positions, and a mental toughness. I think a GM can fix the talent issue - and I think knowing your not walking into a gun fight with a knife will help the mental toughness.

But please get this man a true GM. Don't let him ruin another draft.

Co-sign. Great post.

strafen
12-04-2010, 12:06 AM
A) I believe Mcdaniels right now is doing too much, he needs to be dialed back to controlling the offense (which he is good at). If we get a DC who knows his ass from his elbow that will improve the team tremendously.
B) I am not too worried about that, firstly free agency is not where we should be focusing, secondly we are not the Raiders or Lions yet, this is a one season thing for now.
C) It is not working for Josh, it is working for Ellis/our new GM. We need to make very sure that the power structure does not end with Mcdaniels, it has to end with a GM.I think that if we start over by getting rid of all the coordinators and assistants at key position that nobody is going to bitch about it.
I think we need to bring an experienced DC and OL coach.
They need the running game blocking scheme dialed in. They're not there yet.
That will help the offense.
An established DC carrying a good system could do more without talent for the time being than Martindklae could do at this time.
I'm hoping we're going to draft defensive players, so the talent could be improved...

Cito Pelon
12-04-2010, 01:39 AM
Yep thats a good move and adding Elway & some high profile swagger to help take the spotlight a little more off of Josh would be a good move as well.

And like King said , getting Elvis and Ayers back alone already helps out D a ton and we need a home run in Draft and FA on the D and at RT and suddenly we are in the thick of it again.

Agree very much its better to let Josh have another year with the right help around him. Its too much heat for any one guy, particularly a young guy just starting out.

Josh too will learn from his mistakes. Would rather we be the beneficiaries of that hard knocks education we are all having to endure rather than gift wrap the rewards for some other team and city.

How badly would it suck to can Josh now in the heat of emotion only to see him go on to win a series of SB in the coming years for someone else, courtesy of our misfortune???

I trust that cooler and more forward thinking heads will take everything into account, including the pending ??? on the next season, the injuries this year that have been a huge mountain no other coach would have overcome either with this team of players and the list of key revolving injuries all season long.

Some may have done a bit better and not made as many tactical and personnel mistakes as Josh has, and for sure those mistakes should be and can be corrected without necessarily canning Josh.

But if clear thinking is applied to this thing, perhaps they find a way to be damned sure Josh cant handle the role of Head coach before firing him after year two with all that has happened.

Thats what I hope. If Josh has to go, lets make sure its because he cant adapt his considerable talents and football knowledge to be a head coach at this time and it is mostly ONLY his shortcomings that are the main reason for our walk through the Valley of the Shadow the last years.

Well, that's a 'cooler heads' point of view. I wish you the best of luck trying to put a cool head on some Bronco fans' shoulders. :notworthy

DBroncos4life
12-04-2010, 03:54 AM
So great/good GM's are easy to come by?

Cito Pelon
12-04-2010, 04:58 AM
So great/good GM's are easy to come by?

Apparently so. The prevailing wisdom is anybody can do better than McXanders, but I say the grass isn't always greener.

misturanderson
12-04-2010, 11:09 AM
Apparently so. The prevailing wisdom is anybody can do better than McXanders, but I say the grass isn't always greener.

I don't think that it's necessarily that someone could absolutely do better. More that one person being completely in charge of personnel while Josh is completely focused on coaching would make both areas better. That way Josh wouldn't be able to completely neglect the defense in the draft so that he can fill out his offense with all the parts that he wants to use and sign questionable FAs to fill out the defense.

Having someone that doesn't get to coach the players (in particularly as the offensive coordinator) would make it easier to fairly assess areas of the team that need the most help and work on improving those areas.

It would be even better if Josh had an experienced person advising him. Right now it is more that he seems to be placing all decisions on his own shoulders with nobody critical to really bounce ideas off of.

Most of the assumptions I've made about the way the front office is run is of course speculation, but it seems to be pretty commonly regarded as true and has never been disputed by the organization.

TonyR
12-04-2010, 06:22 PM
So great/good GM's are easy to come by?

No, but I think the Broncos front office is one of the thinnest in the league. They really need to get some experience in the room.

lostknight
12-04-2010, 06:44 PM
Apparently so. The prevailing wisdom is anybody can do better than McXanders, but I say the grass isn't always greener.

When the grass is the harsh black of scorched earth, it's a good bet that there is at least some place where the grass might be greener.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-04-2010, 06:46 PM
When the grass is the harsh black of scorched earth, it's a good bet that there is at least some place where the grass might be greener.

Might be a slight overstatement, but... ****, as long as you're being a drama queen, might as well continue.

We'll see if we can find you a crown.

OrangenBlueOhio
12-04-2010, 07:04 PM
Isn't this whole, take away some of his responsibilities/hire a gm talk, the same thing everyone was sayin about Shanny at the end? I guess when you got nothin else for an excuse blame it on responsibilities. Maybe Mcd has Wade syndrome, great coordinator, horrible head coach.

By the way are we sure we're not going to lose any draft picks over Mcspygate? Are the fines the only action the NFL are going to take? I mean we could be talkin about a pretty high pick next year.

gyldenlove
12-04-2010, 08:03 PM
I think that if we start over by getting rid of all the coordinators and assistants at key position that nobody is going to b**** about it.
I think we need to bring an experienced DC and OL coach.
They need the running game blocking scheme dialed in. They're not there yet.
That will help the offense.
An established DC carrying a good system could do more without talent for the time being than Martindklae could do at this time.
I'm hoping we're going to draft defensive players, so the talent could be improved...

I look at last year, we really did do a lot better last year despite some pretty average talent and some big changes to play style.

To me that came down to 3 things, 1: Mcdaniels is very good with an offense, but is definitely a pass first guy. 2: Dennison especially was a counterweight who to some extend kept Mcdaniels from going to the 70-30 pass - run split. 3: Nolan on defense had a plan and it was good.

Mcdaniels is too inexperienced to run every aspect of the team, he needs some solid people who can independently work the defense and run game. Martindale is a yes-man, he won't do.

I would really like to see us get a good either RB or OL coach who can deal with the run game to some extend and a strong veteran defensive coordinator.

SJ Bronco
12-04-2010, 10:19 PM
Well, I've read this whole thread, let me say this. This is the first thread I've read in a while that had some well reasoned arguments and not a bunch of name calling. With that said, you guys have changed my mind a little. I think if we hire a REAL big name GM and let that GM make all the personnel and half of the player decisions, I could give McD one more year. Short of that, we can't let it go another year "as is". a season this bad requires some sort of action. Injuries suck, but that's not the only thing that is making this season repulsive. Something is broke, and I have to agree with about 50% of you. I think we give it one more year with a quality GM with real power, and some new position coaches and ride out this last year. Look for some improvement, and if not, blow it up after Shannys contract is off the books.

strafen
12-04-2010, 10:38 PM
I look at last year, we really did do a lot better last year despite some pretty average talent and some big changes to play style.

To me that came down to 3 things, 1: Mcdaniels is very good with an offense, but is definitely a pass first guy. 2: Dennison especially was a counterweight who to some extend kept Mcdaniels from going to the 70-30 pass - run split. 3: Nolan on defense had a plan and it was good.

Mcdaniels is too inexperienced to run every aspect of the team, he needs some solid people who can independently work the defense and run game. Martindale is a yes-man, he won't do.

I would really like to see us get a good either RB or OL coach who can deal with the run game to some extend and a strong veteran defensive coordinator.Those are some good valid points.
The question is, would an establish coordinator would want to work for McDaniels.
How much influence would McDaniels have over said coordinator?
I mean, would a coordinator/coach; DC, OL. RB or what have you want McDaniles to tell them how to run his gig?

lostknight
12-04-2010, 11:14 PM
Might be a slight overstatement, but... ****, as long as you're being a drama queen, might as well continue.

We'll see if we can find you a crown.

How many teams are better then 3-8? That's how many teams have greener grass then we do.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-05-2010, 07:54 AM
How many teams are better then 3-8? That's how many teams have greener grass then we do.

Yeah, but claiming scorched earth on our lawn is over the top. This cupboard isn't bare. We aren't the Dolphins from a few years back, we aren't the Raiders from a couple seasons ago, we aren't the winless Lions, and we aren't the hapless Rams from last season.

There are things that work on this team, they just don't work enough of the time. A lot of that is execution, and it comes with more practice, more reps.

At the beginning of THIS season, did you think the running game would ever look even decent? Did you think that Moreno would hit 100 yards rushing in a game? I was starting to wonder, but we've improved in that category. Our line has started to gel, and Moreno is running well behind them.

People desperate to see progress need to look at the good and the bad, not just one or the other. This is where your scorched earth routine falls flat.

OrangenBlueOhio
12-05-2010, 11:49 AM
Yeah, but claiming scorched earth on our lawn is over the top. This cupboard isn't bare. We aren't the Dolphins from a few years back, we aren't the Raiders from a couple seasons ago, we aren't the winless Lions, and we aren't the hapless Rams from last season.

There are things that work on this team, they just don't work enough of the time. A lot of that is execution, and it comes with more practice, more reps.

At the beginning of THIS season, did you think the running game would ever look even decent? Did you think that Moreno would hit 100 yards rushing in a game? I was starting to wonder, but we've improved in that category. Our line has started to gel, and Moreno is running well behind them.

People desperate to see progress need to look at the good and the bad, not just one or the other. This is where your scorched earth routine falls flat.


I don't see the difference in us and all those teams you mention. You think there wasn't people inside those organizations who "believed" they were just rebuilding, and on their way up. Do you have a crystal ball that shows the Broncos are on their way to better times, and not on their way to the cellar?

What I see is a guy who can't deal with players, coaches, human beings. We fired a guy who won us two superbowls and made us contenders every year. (say what you want about not winning playoff games ask the raiders, rams, or lions which position they would rather be in.) So if we can fire Shanny we sure as heck can fire Mcd and take a shot with ANYBODY else.