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View Full Version : Martindale v Talent


Inkana7
12-01-2010, 03:06 PM
For as long as I've been on this board, one of the main culprits for our ****ty defenses (and we've had 5 in the 5 years I've been here!) has been our coordinators. First it was Coyer and his inability to adjust. Then it was Bates and his inability to construct a defense that was designed to ever stop a running back. Then it was Slowick and his inability to construct a defense. Many here were satisfied with Nolan last year, but I do remember a lot of grumbling about him towards the end of the season when the magic seemingly had run out.

This year, we have a defense even worse than Slowick's (the 2010 D's 50 points allowed game was even worse than 2008s!). However, I've heard very few complaints about Martindale compared to previous coordinators. Why is this? I myself have been far less peeved at our D-Coordinator than in years past.

I guess what I'm trying to ask the community here is, what is at the root of our struggles on defense? Is it talent or coaching? One of my coaches from high school once told me "It's not the X's and O's but the Jimmys and the Joes." I think I agree with him when it comes to the 2010 Defense. We are simply lacking a lot of talent that Wink can work with, including our two best pass rushers. When watching games I rarely find myself questioning Martindale's competence like I did Coyer, Bates or Slowick.

Thoughts?

yerner
12-01-2010, 03:07 PM
Talent wins. They tried to get bigger but forgot to get better. Coaches are overrated imo.

Inkana7
12-01-2010, 03:09 PM
Talent wins. They tried to get bigger but forgot to get better. Coaches are overrated imo.

So would you say you're satisfied with Martindale's defensive scheme, and that he only needs better players for it to be effective?

baja
12-01-2010, 03:12 PM
I think we play too much man to man coverage without a decent pass rush.

Lev Vyvanse
12-01-2010, 03:12 PM
Sounds like a terrible fight card. I hope that's not the main event.

Rohirrim
12-01-2010, 03:12 PM
Talent. What the Broncos need more than anything else on defense is talent on the Dline. After that, they need continuity. You can't change schemes every year and hope to get anywhere. Richard Seymours are hard to find. So are Wilforks. But that's what we need.

PRBronco
12-01-2010, 03:13 PM
Sorry I still think 2008's was worse. It's close though.

I'd have to say this year it's a complete dearth of talent. I think Wink deserves another, and quite frankly I'm not sure I can take another 1 and Done DC. I might explode with rage. I like the looks he throws at them when the guys are milling around pre-snap and there might only be one guy down in a 3 point stance.

It just seems like so many TDs allowed this year are the result of one player's epic **** up, not terrible scheming. Unfortunately there's 4 or 5 TDs allowed by Dawkins burned into my brain. And obviously the pass rush suffers from the lack of anyone able to win a 1 on 1 battle, or draw a double team.

Killericon
12-01-2010, 03:14 PM
Sounds like a terrible fight card. I hope that's not the main event.

I'll take Martindale in a 2nd round KO.

(You see what I did there? Wasn't that clever? Ahahaha...Ahhhh.... :( )

Inkana7
12-01-2010, 03:15 PM
Sorry I still think 2008's was worse. It's close though.

I'd have to say this year it's a complete dearth of talent. I think Wink deserves another, and quite frankly I'm not sure I can take another 1 and Done DC. I might explode with rage. I like the looks he throws at them when the guys are milling around pre-snap and there might only be one guy down in a 3 point stance.

It just seems like so many TDs allowed this year are the result of one player's epic **** up, not terrible scheming. Unfortunately there's 4 or 5 TDs allowed by Dawkins burned into my brain. And obviously the pass rush suffers from the lack of anyone able to win a 1 on 1 battle, or draw a double team.

This is pretty much my opinion top to bottom. Especially about Dawkins. Man, it's really sad how bad he's been this season.

baja
12-01-2010, 03:16 PM
Sorry I still think 2008's was worse. It's close though.

I'd have to say this year it's a complete dearth of talent. I think Wink deserves another, and quite frankly I'm not sure I can take another 1 and Done DC. I might explode with rage. I like the looks he throws at them when the guys are milling around pre-snap and there might only be one guy down in a 3 point stance.

<b>It just seems like so many TDs allowed this year are the result of one player's epic **** up, not terrible scheming. </b> Unfortunately there's 4 or 5 TDs allowed by Dawkins burned into my brain. And obviously the pass rush suffers from the lack of anyone able to win a 1 on 1 battle, or draw a double team.

That's a good point

Rabb
12-01-2010, 03:18 PM
I am willing to stick by Wink, I definitely don't have the same evil thoughts I had about Slowik...then again I was ok with Nolan as well

We need more talent, it was sadly apparent this past Sunday

DrFate
12-01-2010, 03:18 PM
Sorry I still think 2008's was worse.


The statistics indicate otherwise, I believe.

Inkana7
12-01-2010, 03:21 PM
The statistics indicate otherwise, I believe.

They do, sadly. But it just feels that the 2008 defense was worse.

zdoor
12-01-2010, 03:23 PM
I think we play too much man to man coverage without a decent pass rush.

This...

For the life of me i don't understand why we don't more zone and I can't for the life of me figure out why we play a safety in a different zip code...

But, talent is as big a factor in the overall performance of a D as scheme IMO....

Rabb
12-01-2010, 03:24 PM
They do, sadly. But it just feels that the 2008 defense was worse.

I have to agree, if anything from a scheme standpoint I think Wink has a clear idea of what he is doing and can make it happen

in 2008, it really seemed like we had no clue what we were doing on defense most of the time

from an upside/right track POV, I would take 2010 all day long

mkporter
12-01-2010, 03:24 PM
I kinda feel that it is talent as well, for some reason. To be honest, though, I'm not really sure who to blame for TEs catching balls without a defender within 20 yards. Seems like the LBs keep missing the delayed crossing routes.

zdoor
12-01-2010, 03:28 PM
I have to agree, if anything from a scheme standpoint I think Wink has a clear idea of what he is doing and can make it happen

in 2008, it really seemed like we had no clue what we were doing on defense most of the time

from an upside/right track POV, I would take 2010 all day long

I disagree. I think Martindale seems married to one scheme in the secondary, man, and we don't have the personnel for it... I would love to see some adjustments thorughout a game. we seem to stay in man come hell or high water. I liked Coyer better but he had shiat for talent (not that Martindale is swimming in talent either)...

_Oro_
12-01-2010, 03:30 PM
The only thing going for the 2010 D over the 2008 D is that we have shut down some of the leagues premier rushers this year. Of course that's not to say we have a good rush defense as for every premier rusher we shut down, we let some run of the mill rusher tear us apart.

Anyway, in 2008 I don't remember us stopping anyone's ground game.

Mogulseeker
12-01-2010, 03:31 PM
Cuz the scapegoat is McD this year.

HILife
12-01-2010, 03:31 PM
Josh McDaniels is taking all his thunder. Come on people, this is Marindale's time to shine.

Inkana7
12-01-2010, 03:31 PM
I disagree. I think Martindale seems married to one scheme in the secondary, man, and we don't have the personnel for it... I would love to see some adjustments thorughout a game. we seem to stay in man come hell or high water. I liked Coyer better but he had shiat for talent (not that Martindale is swimming in talent either)...

I think Coyer had way more talent than anyone else on the list. With Wilson, Champ in his prime, a healthy and effective Lynch, Pryce, noted TE cover-er Sam Brandon and other guys who had their best years with him, like Nick Ferguson.

Smiling Assassin27
12-01-2010, 03:34 PM
A talented 11 can run just about any scheme and be in the top half of the league in total defense, IMO.

For my part, I don't see it as an either/or proposal. We have marginal talent which is first, and foremost, the problem. Compound that with a d-coordinator who has little experience and is decidedly not good at making adjustments and you get what we have here.

One thing we see a lot is a defensive coordinator who develops a reputation as a genius but really is coaching a boatload of talent. That coach moves on to a different, marginally talented team and he's not nearly as accomplished. Wink has no body of work to base his coordinator job on, IMO.

gyldenlove
12-01-2010, 03:35 PM
Martindale, hands down.

Compare 2010 to 2009.

CB: We added Cox who has been than Smith was last year, this position is a push to me talentwise given the injury situation.

S: Dawkins has probably slowed down, and being injured means this position is less talented than last year.

OLB: Losing Dumervil is a hit, but Ayers has been better this year and Hunter is a step up from Moss, I would say a slight downgrade in total.

ILB: Haggan is at least as talented if not more so than Davis was, Mays has also shown a knack for making plays, no significant injuries here so I am calling a push.

DL: Who would you rather have, Kenny Peterson, Chris Baker, Vonnie Holliday and Lekevin Smith or Justin Bannan, Jamal Williams and Kevin Vickerson? I would say this is a talent upgrade.

All in all I would rate the defense talentwise as comparable to last year with downgrades at S and OLB and upgrade at DL. So why does the defense give up 1 TD with a 2 point conversion more per game than last year? Why have we dropped from top 10 in sacks to 2nd worst? Why are we on pace for only half the amount of turnovers we had last season?

That big a dropoff can not be attributed to talent, it just can not and I refuse to believe that Elvis Dumervil over Jason Hunter makes a difference of 8 points, 2 sacks and 1 turnover per game. Martindale is the main part of the problem, if you look at the typical passing TD we give up in non-goal line situations you will see 1 on 1 coverage with no safety help because Dawkins plays close to the line and Hill is left 30 yards behind the ball on his own.

strafen
12-01-2010, 03:38 PM
Nobody is criticizing Martindale. He's Mcdaniels boy.
McCoy, our OC, I bet a lot of people here didn't know we had an OC.
Oh, and we have a QB coach as well. Mcdaniels little brother fresh out of high school to coach in the pros with one of the top franchises in the NFL.
We can now see how's that working out.
3-8!

Soul-Bronco
12-01-2010, 03:38 PM
talent all day, when bradford has the time to order a pizza, eat it, then twitter about crop dusting the ref behind him before getting a defender in the same vacinity, yea its talent. Look at the highlights on NFL.com all of those TD's came from a perfectly looking pocket, i mean it was like the wall of china

We should be playing more zone and less man, but i think wink is implementing a system, we need continuity and when doom gets back + some defensive help, we can run those man coverages

Inkana7
12-01-2010, 03:39 PM
Martindale, hands down.

Compare 2010 to 2009.

CB: We added Cox who has been than Smith was last year, this position is a push to me talentwise given the injury situation.

S: Dawkins has probably slowed down, and being injured means this position is less talented than last year.

OLB: Losing Dumervil is a hit, but Ayers has been better this year and Hunter is a step up from Moss, I would say a slight downgrade in total.

ILB: Haggan is at least as talented if not more so than Davis was, Mays has also shown a knack for making plays, no significant injuries here so I am calling a push.

DL: Who would you rather have, Kenny Peterson, Chris Baker, Vonnie Holliday and Lekevin Smith or Justin Bannan, Jamal Williams and Kevin Vickerson? I would say this is a talent upgrade.

All in all I would rate the defense talentwise as comparable to last year with downgrades at S and OLB and upgrade at DL. So why does the defense give up 1 TD with a 2 point conversion more per game than last year? Why have we dropped from top 10 in sacks to 2nd worst? Why are we on pace for only half the amount of turnovers we had last season?

That big a dropoff can not be attributed to talent, it just can not and I refuse to believe that Elvis Dumervil over Jason Hunter makes a difference of 8 points, 2 sacks and 1 turnover per game. Martindale is the main part of the problem, if you look at the typical passing TD we give up in non-goal line situations you will see 1 on 1 coverage with no safety help because Dawkins plays close to the line and Hill is left 30 yards behind the ball on his own.

You're basing this on your own little talent metric which is really stupid, and fairly wrong.

zdoor
12-01-2010, 03:40 PM
I think Coyer had way more talent than anyone else on the list. With Wilson, Champ in his prime, a healthy and effective Lynch, Pryce, noted TE cover-er Sam Brandon and other guys who had their best years with him, like Nick Ferguson.

You could argue that guys had there best years with him and that is another feather in his cap... But I agree he had some pieces but still a lot of nothing in key spots.. Still like Coyer the best out of your list...

Soul-Bronco
12-01-2010, 03:40 PM
Nobody is criticizing Martindale. He's Mcdaniels boy.
McCoy, our OC, I bet a lot of people here didn't know we had an OC.
Oh, and we have a QB coach as well. Mcdaniels little brother fresh out of high school to coach in the pros with one of the top franchises in the NFL.
We can now see how's that working out.
3-8!

do you ever contribute to a discussion ? or just regurgitate the same garbage over and over? your post has 0 to do with the thread

Inkana7
12-01-2010, 03:40 PM
Nobody is criticizing Martindale. He's Mcdaniels boy.
McCoy, our OC, I bet a lot of people here didn't know we had an OC.
Oh, and we have a QB coach as well. Mcdaniels little brother fresh out of high school to coach in the pros with one of the top franchises in the NFL.
We can now see how's that working out.
3-8!

So, what does this have to do with the question I posed in the OP?

strafen
12-01-2010, 03:42 PM
So, what does this have to do with the question I posed in the OP?In a nutshell. It's Martindale the problem, hands down...

Rabb
12-01-2010, 03:43 PM
I disagree. I think Martindale seems married to one scheme in the secondary, man, and we don't have the personnel for it... I would love to see some adjustments thorughout a game. we seem to stay in man come hell or high water. I liked Coyer better but he had shiat for talent (not that Martindale is swimming in talent either)...

Probably my largest source of Slowik rage that could have been...and he was a secondary coach

I see what you are saying, but I have a feeling he is scheming to fit what he wants to do combined with the abilities he has to work with and honestly our secondary should be a strength for us

it's truly impossible to know right now, a good front 7 can make an average secondary look pretty special no matter what coverage they are in...I just hope we get the chance to see what these boys can do with solid play in both areas

Rabb
12-01-2010, 03:44 PM
Nobody is criticizing Martindale. He's Mcdaniels boy.
McCoy, our OC, I bet a lot of people here didn't know we had an OC.
Oh, and we have a QB coach as well. Mcdaniels little brother fresh out of high school to coach in the pros with one of the top franchises in the NFL.
We can now see how's that working out.
3-8!

Well, I am not a McD fan but I like Wink....so there goes that theory

enjolras
12-01-2010, 03:44 PM
Martindale, hands down.

Compare 2010 to 2009.

CB: We added Cox who has been than Smith was last year, this position is a push to me talentwise given the injury situation.

S: Dawkins has probably slowed down, and being injured means this position is less talented than last year.

Safety remains a position of tremendous weakness. McBath can't stay healthy and Dawkins is done.

OLB: Losing Dumervil is a hit, but Ayers has been better this year and Hunter is a step up from Moss, I would say a slight downgrade in total.

Except Ayers hasn't played much this year. He's had a lot of injury issues... I think it's been a position of exceptional weakness.

DL: Who would you rather have, Kenny Peterson, Chris Baker, Vonnie Holliday and Lekevin Smith or Justin Bannan, Jamal Williams and Kevin Vickerson? I would say this is a talent upgrade.

Maybe.. but it sure hasn't show up in production.

All in all I would rate the defense talentwise as comparable to last year with downgrades at S and OLB and upgrade at DL. So why does the defense give up 1 TD with a 2 point conversion more per game than last year? Why have we dropped from top 10 in sacks to 2nd worst? Why are we on pace for only half the amount of turnovers we had last season?

How many of those sacks last year were attributable to Dumervil?

That big a dropoff can not be attributed to talent, it just can not and I refuse to believe that Elvis Dumervil over Jason Hunter makes a difference of 8 points, 2 sacks and 1 turnover per game. Martindale is the main part of the problem, if you look at the typical passing TD we give up in non-goal line situations you will see 1 on 1 coverage with no safety help because Dawkins plays close to the line and Hill is left 30 yards behind the ball on his own.

I absolutely disagree.

zdoor
12-01-2010, 03:44 PM
Nobody is criticizing Martindale. He's Mcdaniels boy.
McCoy, our OC, I bet a lot of people here didn't know we had an OC.
Oh, and we have a QB coach as well. Mcdaniels little brother fresh out of high school to coach in the pros with one of the top franchises in the NFL.
We can now see how's that working out.
3-8!

Come on man. I am far from a McDaniels man but let's see if we can have one thread where nobody completely derails it... just stick to what he asked. Everybody knows the record and is not always needing it rehashed...

PRBronco
12-01-2010, 03:45 PM
You're basing this on your own little talent metric which is really stupid, and fairly wrong.

Sorry gylden but I lol'd hard at calling the OLB situation a "slight downgrade".

Quoted the wrong post, but I'm ok with that.

Inkana7
12-01-2010, 03:46 PM
In a nutshell. It's Martindale the problem, hands down...

So it's your assertion that the talent on D is fine, and that all we need is a Rex Ryan to come in and it'll be a Top 10 D?

Popps
12-01-2010, 03:48 PM
Inka,

I've raised the Martindale question a few times. It's tough to really evaluate in the first year... but we're not just playing bad, we've got TE's running wide open on us... too many men on the field... WR's wide open, etc. I know it's tough to construct a defense without star players, but some of the basics seem to be missing.

I like that we can step up and stop the run when we focus on it. But, that can't mean we just don't account for tight ends at all. Good grief.

Mountain Bronco
12-01-2010, 03:50 PM
Martindale seems like a vanilla DC that is married to one skeem. But and this a big BUT, there is very little talent on D. Jamal Williams is old, so is Bannan, Doom being out kills our pass rush, and the rest of our LB's are average. Corners is an ok spot on the team, but the safeties are awful, sorry Dawkins, but you should retire. So with that how can we evaluate Martindale and his sceem with the lack of talent. Maybe he relies on man coverage because the corners have the most talent? Maybe he goes fairly vanilla, because there isn't the talent to run complex schemes?

This is a really tough question.

Popps
12-01-2010, 03:51 PM
Oh, and we need more talent. No question.

First off, no-pass rush = a **** defense, these days. Elvis going down relegated us to a marginal defense, at best. We need him back, and other threats.

We also need secondary help... and I'm not wild about DJ Williams in the middle.

We need to look for...

-IMPACT DL
-IMPACT ILB
-Safety help
-Secondary help

With multiple early draft picks and free agency, I think we can improve... quickly.

Rohirrim
12-01-2010, 03:55 PM
Imagine you're a DC and your entire secondary scheme is based on getting to the QB and then you lose Doom for the season, and Ayers for much of it, completely dismantling your pass rush? Some things you can't scheme around. Some times you just batten down the hatches and try and make it to port.

Br0nc0Buster
12-01-2010, 03:58 PM
Talent is the main issue, we dont have very many playmakers to begin with, and we were also very thin at some important spots
then the injuries started happening and the house of cards fell down

with that said I dont care for Wink, some of his calls have been downright stupid
Hes not as bad as Slowick, but I havent been impressed
I specifically remember on a 3rd and 20 in the redzone he called an all out blitz in the Raider game and they called a screen and scored a TD

its hard to also compare this defense to last years because last year we caught people off guard at first but our defense in the second half was trash because our tendencies were starting to show and we didnt have the talent to win our individual matchups

we didnt have that luxury this year, we were kneecapped from the get go

So talent is the main problem by far, but I would prefer if Josh brought in a more experienced DC to just work on the defense and let Josh focus on the offense

gtown
12-01-2010, 04:02 PM
It's TALENT. DL can't disengage from blocks, our pass rush is injured, and our safeties are either injured or old. You fix the DL, you can stop the run, and if you do that, you can put offenses in long down and distances for the pass rush to tee off on.

BigPlayShay
12-01-2010, 04:05 PM
I read the thread title as Martindale vs. Taint. I'd have to give a no decision on that.

cmhargrove
12-01-2010, 04:15 PM
Remember that Hunter and Vickerson were guys we pulled off the scrap heap just before the season. They have pretty much performed like lots of our d-line talent over the past several years - flashes of brilliance, mixed with long painful games that are like pulling teeth.

We are still a team in flux.

However, when you look at the "great" defenses out there, you see guys that constantly win their one-on-one battles. That allows other guys on the defense to "cheat" and take risks that can put a defense over the top.

We need more dominance on the d-line. Our front three need to be able to occupy 4-5 blockers in order for the LB corps to adequately cover sideline to sideline. We need more talent.

Wink may be part of the problem (learning his new job), but I think that like McD - he will get better as our talent level increases.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2010, 04:24 PM
It's talent and consistency. We change a coordinator every year, then change schemes. And we expect this to work for us?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2010, 04:26 PM
Come on man. I am far from a McDaniels man but let's see if we can have one thread where nobody completely derails it... just stick to what he asked. Everybody knows the record and is not always needing it rehashed...

Hadn't you heard? Every thread is now to be a judgment on McDaniels, as well as a judgment on the poster and whether or not they are "pro-" or "anti-" McDaniels. I'm surprised you haven't picked up on this trend.

Inkana7
12-01-2010, 04:35 PM
Hadn't you heard? Every thread is now to be a judgment on McDaniels, as well as a judgment on the poster and whether or not they are "pro-" or "anti-" McDaniels. I'm surprised you haven't picked up on this trend.

Hey now, he later made a contribution.

So it looks to me like the majority here feel it's more of an issue with talent.

So how do we best go about acquiring it? Are there any stud D-Linemen in this years' Free Agent class?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2010, 04:39 PM
Hey now, he later made a contribution.

So it looks to me like the majority here feel it's more of an issue with talent.

So how do we best go about acquiring it? Are there any stud D-Linemen in this years' Free Agent class?

First one he's made all day.

I think you best acquire the help we need through the draft. You're not going to get a stud DT in his prime through FA because those guys don't become FA very often... and when they do, they have their choice of teams, and can be the missing link on a team already in contention.

No, we need to build from the middle of the line and LB corps outward. DT should be the first priority. ILB should be the second. Safety the third.

And we should trade DJ Williams for some picks to help us get there.

Chris
12-01-2010, 04:47 PM
I think we've had so much turnover at the spot that people are realising a new DC might not be the answer. Certainly I'm of the belief that we give Wink another year with healthy stars and perhaps a new addition to the DL with our 1st rounder.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2010, 04:50 PM
I think we've had so much turnover at the spot that people are realising a new DC might not be the answer. Certainly I'm of the belief that we give Wink another year with healthy stars and perhaps a new addition to the DL with our 1st rounder.

I must be ahead of my time. I wanted to bring back Bates for year 2 in the name of consistency (and in the name of how well his defenses performed in their second year).

fontaine
12-01-2010, 04:53 PM
Coaching is no substitute for talent.

However there are basics EVERY Defensive Coach is expected to carry out that have nothing to do with talent:

1. Fundamental skills like tackling. It doesn't take a pro-bowler to make a good tackler. Everything from the way offseason practices are run, tempo, to how players are treated when they miss tackles in games is a coaching decision.

Our tackling is absurd.

How many players have been benched or have been told to sit out plays because they're tackling was weak?

2. Teaching players to recognize fronts: How many times have we been utterly fooled by gadget/trick plays? Off the top of my head I can think of three in the just the last two games. Two end arounds by the Rams last game and another vs the Bolts.

3. Getting players to align right: I can't believe I'm even putting this down. It's such a basic, simple requirement that it hardly bears explaining to anyone . . . Except Wink Martindale apparently. I mean how hard is it to have 11 players on the field (not 9, 10, 12, 5 billion, but just 11)? Or get them to align a CB to a WR?

There's no official NFL record for this but our defense must have hit records in terms of penalties on incorrect numbers of players on the field and called time outs because we didn't have 11 players on the field.



Does this sound like the resume of a competent DC? A DC who can get the most out of the talent available.

Martinadale shouldn't and ISN'T going to be the DC after this season. This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. While numerous players have repeatedly defending McDaniels and stood by him publicly how many players have you heard during the season openly support and voice confidence in Wink?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2010, 04:58 PM
Martinadale shouldn't and ISN'T going to be the DC after this season. This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. While numerous players have repeatedly defending McDaniels and stood by him publicly how many players have you heard during the season openly support and voice confidence in Wink?

Awesome! more turnover! And when the unit is weak again next year, let's turn it over again!

Success!

As for the tackling, I agree that it's been abysmal. However, one of the worst offenders has been Brian Dawkins, a 10+ year vet. Are you suggesting that it is the DC's responsibility to teach a 10+ year vet -- who has now been tackling for twice that long in his lifetime -- to tackle properly?

That's... absurd. It's absolutely absurd.

fontaine
12-01-2010, 05:02 PM
Now lets juxtapose that with a DC who can coach for weakenesses in our side.

I remember a DC who realized early in the season that we had absolutely no pass rush.

1. So instead of allowing QBs to have all day to throw the ball or go the traditional route of sending blitzes at the cost of risking the big play, a former DC creatively set up a Cover 0 scheme that fooled the hell out of offenses for a over half the season until it was repeatedly copied by other defenses.

2. This guy also had several rookie DBs starting and knew that against bigger, physical WRs there was no point in giving them a 10 yard cushion. So he had those young CBs line up intially with a 8-10 yard cushion, then during the snap count creep up to the line and cover their man aggressively so that at least what the QB thought in his presnap read was a gimme 5-6 yard pass play now had changed and it forced the QB to think again.

3. Finally, in a division rich with TEs like Gonzo, Gates and that dude from Oakland, he actively moved away from using Champ on those guys and recognized the physical talent in Sam Brandon who was strong enough to hand with TEs but not fluid enough to be an every down player. So he created the big nickel package for Brandon who otherwise was a backup and mostly STs guy.

These were'nt revolutionaly plays or even great ones. But they were indicative of a coach KNOWING what's he's got, what he's up against every weak and planning accordingly thus putting his players in the best position to succeed. That's all you can ask from your coach.

How many times have we seen stuff like this from Wink?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2010, 05:03 PM
Now lets juxtapose that with a DC who can coach for weakenesses in our side.

I remember a DC who realized early in the season that we had absolutely no pass rush.

1. So instead of allowing QBs to have all day to throw the ball or go the traditional route of sending blitzes at the cost of risking the big play, a former DC creatively set up a Cover 0 scheme that fooled the hell out of offenses for a over half the season until it was repeatedly copied by other defenses.

2. This guy also had several rookie DBs starting and knew that against bigger, physical WRs there was no point in giving them a 10 yard cushion. So he had those young CBs line up intially with a 8-10 yard cushion, then during the snap count creep up to the line and cover their man aggressively so that at least what the QB thought in his presnap read was a gimme 5-6 yard pass play now had changed and it forced the QB to think again.

3. Finally, in a division rich with TEs like Gonzo, Gates and that dude from Oakland, he actively moved away from using Champ on those guys and recognized the physical talent in Sam Brandon who was strong enough to hand with TEs but not fluid enough to be an every down player. So he created the big nickel package for Brandon who otherwise was a backup and mostly STs guy.

These were'nt revolutionaly plays or even great ones. But they were indicative of a coach KNOWING what's he's got, what he's up against every weak and planning accordingly thus putting his players in the best position to succeed. That's all you can ask from your coach.

How many times have we seen stuff like this from Wink?

Well, that. And teaching 10 year vets how to tackle.

And we have seen what you're asking for from Wink. Last week against the Rams, we put our defense in the best situation to stop Stephen Jackson from running all over us. We set out to do it, to put the ball in a rookie QB's hands, and were successful on both counts. Didn't win us the game, unfortunately, and that rookie QB is much better than we thought.

We also did the right things against Tennessee and the Jets. And I know, it's a long season, and things get forgotten, but acting like we've never executed a successful defensive gameplan during the course of this season is just ridiculous.

Are there things to be fixed? YES. God, yes. I can't believe that TE drag is still working, but I also can't believe that DJ's gotten absolutely DESTROYED on that twice that I can remember this season (first Oakland TD and one of the Rams TDs was on the EXACT same play). My god, DJ. He passed right in front of your face. Get on him.

But Wink is somehow responsible for that busted coverage?

It's just sort of silly, I think. And because of breakdowns -- which a lot of the Oakland game was, admittedly -- we change the DC AGAIN? Really?

Really?

fontaine
12-01-2010, 05:05 PM
Awesome! more turnover! And when the unit is weak again next year, let's turn it over again!

Success!

As for the tackling, I agree that it's been abysmal. However, one of the worst offenders has been Brian Dawkins, a 10+ year vet. Are you suggesting that it is the DC's responsibility to teach a 10+ year vet -- who has now been tackling for twice that long in his lifetime -- to tackle properly?

That's... absurd. It's absolutely absurd.

1. We are simply NOT going to be weaker next year by the simple definition that we are already the worst or 2nd worst defense in the league in points allowed. So rest easy on that.

2. Dawkins has been very poor in tackling the last three games. Prior to that he was fine. With a 10 year vet you have to give him one or two more chances or go with the younger guy off the bench.

After all, isn't that WHY McDaniels drafted two safeties? Or are they there to just look pretty on the bench in their clean jerseys?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2010, 05:13 PM
1. We are simply NOT going to be weaker next year by the simple definition that we are already the worst or 2nd worst defense in the league in points allowed. So rest easy on that.

2. Dawkins has been very poor in tackling the last three games. Prior to that he was fine. With a 10 year vet you have to give him one or two more chances or go with the younger guy off the bench.

After all, isn't that WHY McDaniels drafted two safeties? Or are they there to just look pretty on the bench in their clean jerseys?

1. Fine. If we jump from 31st to 29th in points allowed, are you going to be okay with that "improvement"? Probably not. You'll just be complaining that we're 29th in the league in points allowed, as you should be. Or if we don't get any worse, but don't get any better, then what?

2. "Very poor" isn't even on the same map as Dawkins right now. "Awful," "abysmal," "world-class bad" are the terms I would use. I might even use "McCree-ian" if it didn't hurt my feelings so badly just to THINK of his name.

Yep, that's why you draft two safeties. And at this point, I'm with you on putting Dawkins down. However, if you're in the middle of a losing campaign, and your team is in the spotlight for all the wrong reasons, and the local newspaper of record is doing everything it can to tear down the coach, front office and organization, and the fans are revolting, do you really believe that benching a wildly popular, emotional leader from your weakest unit is the best thing to do?

Plus, our other safeties have been hurt on and off all year. Do we go to the scrapheap for yet another castoff at yet another position?

fontaine
12-01-2010, 05:15 PM
Well, that. And teaching 10 year vets how to tackle.

And we have seen what you're asking for from Wink. Last week against the Rams, we put our defense in the best situation to stop Stephen Jackson from running all over us. We set out to do it, to put the ball in a rookie QB's hands, and were successful on both counts. Didn't win us the game, unfortunately, and that rookie QB is much better than we thought.


A pop warner coach could have told you that you have to stop Jackson.

We also did the right things against Tennessee and the Jets. And I know, it's a long season, and things get forgotten, but acting like we've never executed a successful defensive gameplan during the course of this season is just ridiculous.

It is ridiculous. Who TF said that?



But Wink is somehow responsible for that busted coverage?

It's just sort of silly, I think. And because of breakdowns -- which a lot of the Oakland game was, admittedly -- we change the DC AGAIN? Really?

Really?

When did I say Wink was responsible for busted coverage?

If you want to just make stuff up then why bother quoting my posts when I CLEARY say nothing about busted coverage being Wink's fault but talk about far more fundamental stuff like tackling and having 11 players of the field aligned right?

fontaine
12-01-2010, 05:19 PM
1. Fine. If we jump from 31st to 29th in points allowed, are you going to be okay with that "improvement"? Probably not. You'll just be complaining that we're 29th in the league in points allowed, as you should be. Or if we don't get any worse, but don't get any better, then what?


I really couldn't give a crap about hypotheticals. We have far more pressing real problems.

2. "Very poor" isn't even on the same map as Dawkins right now. "Awful," "abysmal," "world-class bad" are the terms I would use. I might even use "McCree-ian" if it didn't hurt my feelings so badly just to THINK of his name.

Yep, that's why you draft two safeties. And at this point, I'm with you on putting Dawkins down. However, if you're in the middle of a losing campaign, and your team is in the spotlight for all the wrong reasons, and the local newspaper of record is doing everything it can to tear down the coach, front office and organization, and the fans are revolting, do you really believe that benching a wildly popular, emotional leader from your weakest unit is the best thing to do?

I could really care less about the media/local reaction. If a DC is so concerned about a PR mess because he's benching a vet even though his play has been subpar then that DC isn't worth a damn.

snowspot66
12-01-2010, 05:20 PM
First one he's made all day.

I think you best acquire the help we need through the draft. You're not going to get a stud DT in his prime through FA because those guys don't become FA very often... and when they do, they have their choice of teams, and can be the missing link on a team already in contention.

No, we need to build from the middle of the line and LB corps outward. DT should be the first priority. ILB should be the second. Safety the third.

And we should trade DJ Williams for some picks to help us get there.

DJ is not going to command multiple high picks. Trading him would just create another hole in the defense with no real way to fill it.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2010, 05:21 PM
A pop warner coach could have told you that you have to stop Jackson.

It is ridiculous. Who TF said that?

When did I say Wink was responsible for busted coverage?

If you want to just make stuff up then why bother quoting my posts when I CLEARY say nothing about busted coverage being Wink's fault but talk about far more fundamental stuff like tackling and having 11 players of the field aligned right?

Then maybe a Pop Warner coach should be coaching in the NFL. After all, a lot of teams DON'T stop Steven Jackson.

I'm with you on the 11 men on the field penalties, but -- and maybe I've missed something -- that problem seems to have been addressed in the last several games.

You didn't specifically say Wink was responsible for busted coverage. I just thought maybe that was something that would be included with the basics of coaching a professional football team's defensive unit... you know, along with basics like "tackling for 10 year vets" and "getting 11 men on the field."

Not trying to start a fight with you man, but come on. You're ripping on the bad, not giving any credit for the good, and seem to refuse to take any players to task for their bad plays, instead lumping those at the feet of the coordinator.

It's just sort of silly.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2010, 05:25 PM
I really couldn't give a crap about hypotheticals. We have far more pressing real problems.



I could really care less about the media/local reaction. If a DC is so concerned about a PR mess because he's benching a vet even though his play has been subpar then that DC isn't worth a damn.

Oy. ****ing. Vey.

You BROUGHT UP the hypothetical when you started discussing next year. "We can't get any worse," remember? Isn't that the point of this entire ****ing thread? How to get BETTER?

Hello? Is this thing on?

You want to fire a guy because hypothetically any DC would be able to do a better job. Keeping consistency at the DC position IS A REAL PROBLEM. Christ on a cracker, I don't understand how we're talking in circles here.

YOU could care less about the local/media reaction because YOU are a part of it. See. It's a bit different when you're on the other side of that microscope. You're talking about benching a guy who is extremely popular not only within the community and the media, but also on the team.

Although if the benching of Dawkins hurts team morale and ensures that McDaniels "loses the locker room," it would give the Shanahan widows a whole new set of circumstances about which to crow. How exciting. But then, that's just a hypothetical, so it doesn't matter.

Right? Right.

fontaine
12-01-2010, 05:26 PM
Not trying to start a fight with you man, but come on. You're ripping on the bad, not giving any credit for the good, and seem to refuse to take any players to task for their bad plays, instead lumping those at the feet of the coordinator.

It's just sort of silly.

Sure, it's why my first post said coaching is not substitute for talent. That talent or lack of it won't be around after this season.

As far as giving credit for good? Sorry, points allowed and turnovers are what count. We're already among the worst if not the worst in points allowed, routinely allowing other teams to score their season highs, but doing so AT HOME no less.

And turnovers? Well, let's just say I don't want to depress myself or anyone else any further by finding out how piss poor we are in generating turnovers either.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2010, 05:27 PM
DJ is not going to command multiple high picks. Trading him would just create another hole in the defense with no real way to fill it.

I realize this. I think we could get a 2nd for him.

And he doesn't fit the system. We can trade him for a pick and get a player who IS.

Is a mis-fitting piece on a weak defense really someone you want to keep around when you could have a better option at the position?

fontaine
12-01-2010, 05:30 PM
Oy. ****ing. Vey.

You BROUGHT UP the hypothetical when you started discussing next year. "We can't get any worse," remember? Isn't that the point of this entire ****ing thread? How to get BETTER?

Hello? Is this thing on?

I'm going to make this real, real simple for you:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/totalPointsPerGame/position/defense

Denver is the WORST defense in the league in points allowed per game.

We can't get any worse next year because we already are the worst. That's not a hypothetical.

EDIT: I just had to check. It turns out our defense is also the WORST in the league in amount of turnovers generated!

:rofl:

WolfpackGuy
12-01-2010, 05:31 PM
They just don't seem very imaginative on defense.

Very little if any gaming or stunting by the DL.

No guys coming from odd angles/alignments to confuse the offense once in awhile.

Then you combine that with an offense that takes entire halves off, and it's no wonder the Broncos are where they are.

I know he's not blessed with a ton of talent, but Wink would rather just sit back and go down in flames rather than attack and go down in flames.

Popps
12-01-2010, 05:32 PM
I realize this. I think we could get a 2nd for him.

And he doesn't fit the system. We can trade him for a pick and get a player who IS.

Is a mis-fitting piece on a weak defense really someone you want to keep around when you could have a better option at the position?

I'd be all for moving into the future if we could get a 2nd rounder for him. I've had a love/hate relationship with the guy forever, but the bottom line is that he's just not dominant and he's playing out of position. He racks up tackle numbers because he's a good tackler and a good chaser, but he can't shed blocks... and it looks to me like his motor is up and down. I also wonder how football smart the guy is. I've always wondered.

But, the bottom line is... we have so many bigger problems, he's probably not going anywhere. He's also had 2 DUI's, could be suspended and is one more FU away from real trouble.

I hated the massive extension they gave him when they did it, and hate it more, now. DJ would be best playing along side a real MLB at his natural position, WOLB for another team.

He's not going anywhere and the bottom line is... we've got bigger problems to address first.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2010, 05:35 PM
I'm going to make this real, real simple for you:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/totalPointsPerGame/position/defense

Denver is the WORST defense in the league in points allowed per game.

We can't get any worse next year because we already are the worst. That's not a hypothetical.

Should I be using sign language? Do you have an interpreter that I can talk to?

I get it. We are the worst. I know. I'm watching the same games you are.

Who brings us the immediate turnaround and results you're dying to see? What DC magically changes this into a top-10 unit for an entire season?

And finally: If we don't improve "enough," which will need to be defined, do we fire the new DC for taking us from 32nd to 25th in 2011?

We haven't had consistency at the position in five ****ing years. That's not a hypothetical, and it's not hypothetical that a lack of consistency in leadership can often be the culprit in things like not getting the right personnel in the draft, not seeing improvement from year to year or game to game.

Who's your Superman that will improve us enough to stay here beyond one season?

snowspot66
12-01-2010, 05:37 PM
I realize this. I think we could get a 2nd for him.

And he doesn't fit the system. We can trade him for a pick and get a player who IS.

Is a mis-fitting piece on a weak defense really someone you want to keep around when you could have a better option at the position?

I'd rather we replace him when it's obvious the position needs to be upgraded. Right now he's one of our best players on defense, whatever that means, and we don't really know how well he'd play with other actually talented players around him.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2010, 05:38 PM
I'd be all for moving into the future if we could get a 2nd rounder for him. I've had a love/hate relationship with the guy forever, but the bottom line is that he's just not dominant and he's playing out of position. He racks up tackle numbers because he's a good tackler and a good chaser, but he can't shed blocks... and it looks to me like his motor is up and down. I also wonder how football smart the guy is. I've always wondered.

But, the bottom line is... we have so many bigger problems, he's probably not going anywhere. He's also had 2 DUI's, could be suspended and is one more FU away from real trouble.

I hated the massive extension they gave him when they did it, and hate it more, now. DJ would be best playing along side a real MLB at his natural position, WOLB for another team.

He's not going anywhere and the bottom line is... we've got bigger problems to address first.

I'd already forgotten about the DUI. That sucks even worse now.

As for more important things to address first, I guess I understand that, but I think you can make several changes at the same time. Trading DJ doesn't upset the balance so much because he's not a strong part of the defense currently. And if you can use the chip you get for him to get a contributing factor player on this team... isn't that win/win?

fontaine
12-01-2010, 05:43 PM
Should I be using sign language? Do you have an interpreter that I can talk to?

I get it. We are the worst. I know. I'm watching the same games you are.

Who brings us the immediate turnaround and results you're dying to see? What DC magically changes this into a top-10 unit for an entire season?

And finally: If we don't improve "enough," which will need to be defined, do we fire the new DC for taking us from 32nd to 25th in 2011?

We haven't had consistency at the position in five ****ing years. That's not a hypothetical, and it's not hypothetical that a lack of consistency in leadership can often be the culprit in things like not getting the right personnel in the draft, not seeing improvement from year to year or game to game.

Who's your Superman that will improve us enough to stay here beyond one season?

Let me get this straight. You're sole argument so far in keeping Martindale is to keep the same consistent DC for the worst defense in the league?

:rofl:

Hell, by that count Slowick should've gotten another year here.

oubronco
12-01-2010, 05:49 PM
We need to invest in some young "Talented D-linemen" and get some mean muthafuggan LB's

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2010, 05:50 PM
Let me get this straight. You're sole argument so far in keeping Martindale is to keep the same consistent DC for the worst defense in the league?

:rofl:

Hell, by that count Slowick should've gotten another year here.

You don't have it straight. At all.

However, that should be a part of the consideration. Know why? Because the best defenses in the league have had the same leadership for some amount of time. The worst have not. And our defense, which has been among the worst for YEARS now, hasn't once had any consistency in that role.

Keep grasping at straws, though.

And we're still waiting for your answer who will immediately take this defense from worst to first. Try not to get bogged down in the rofling and actually discuss the topic at hand.

Perhaps we could get the tackling coach from a good defense to be our DC. After all, he teaches tackling at the professional level. Must be REAAAAAAL special.

gyldenlove
12-01-2010, 05:55 PM
Just because it is easy. In 2008 we went to 3-4 without having the personnel or coaching experience with that formation, and it worked for half a game. In 2010 we went to 4-3 without having the personnel and it worked for half a game.

Martindale = Slowick.

fontaine
12-01-2010, 06:19 PM
Perhaps we could get the tackling coach from a good defense to be our DC. After all, he teaches tackling at the professional level. Must be REAAAAAAL special.

That would be a great start.

I think it was Shanahan (or Kubiak) that said about the Ravens D that year in year out, regardless of injuries, roster turnover etc the Ravens simply are one of the best tackling defenses in the league.

After that I offered some pretty straightforward examples of Larry Coyer coaching three different aspects of our weakenesses and masking/hiding them. That would be another great start.

Beyond that, it's the job of the GM/HC to do the film study and pick the right DC for the job.

And no, presiding over the worst defense in points allowed AND turnovers in the entire league would certainly not be part of that resume. I dunno, call me picky.

Martindale can go back to being the unit coach of the LBers.

Rock Chalk
12-01-2010, 06:52 PM
For as long as I've been on this board, one of the main culprits for our ****ty defenses (and we've had 5 in the 5 years I've been here!) has been our coordinators. First it was Coyer and his inability to adjust. Then it was Bates and his inability to construct a defense that was designed to ever stop a running back. Then it was Slowick and his inability to construct a defense. Many here were satisfied with Nolan last year, but I do remember a lot of grumbling about him towards the end of the season when the magic seemingly had run out.

This year, we have a defense even worse than Slowick's (the 2010 D's 50 points allowed game was even worse than 2008s!). However, I've heard very few complaints about Martindale compared to previous coordinators. Why is this? I myself have been far less peeved at our D-Coordinator than in years past.

I guess what I'm trying to ask the community here is, what is at the root of our struggles on defense? Is it talent or coaching? One of my coaches from high school once told me "It's not the X's and O's but the Jimmys and the Joes." I think I agree with him when it comes to the 2010 Defense. We are simply lacking a lot of talent that Wink can work with, including our two best pass rushers. When watching games I rarely find myself questioning Martindale's competence like I did Coyer, Bates or Slowick.

Thoughts?

Without Dumervil our Ferrari turned into a Pinto and it's not really Wink's fault. I thought he has had some good game plans defensively. The Colts and Jets games, the Titan game, the Seattle game, hell even the Jacksonville game. But when you have no pass rush, and he has tried pretty much every blitz I know of and probably many I don't, then you get beat.

I do think he has had some gaffe's. There was something terribly wrong all together in the Oakland game and the better part of the Rams game, but I don't think his job has been easy and I would most definitely urge patience. I damn sure dont think its a good idea to continuously change DCs every year.

Rock Chalk
12-01-2010, 07:00 PM
I'm going to make this real, real simple for you:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/totalPointsPerGame/position/defense

Denver is the WORST defense in the league in points allowed per game.

We can't get any worse next year because we already are the worst. That's not a hypothetical.

EDIT: I just had to check. It turns out our defense is also the WORST in the league in amount of turnovers generated!

:rofl:
Turnovers for the most part are a result of pressure on the QB.

Its talent. Not coaching.

And the tackling problem is systemic and has been a problem through many DCs which leads me to believe its not the coaching, its the players.

Dedhed
12-01-2010, 07:24 PM
Sorry I still think 2008's was worse. It's close though.

I'd have to say this year it's a complete dearth of talent. I think Wink deserves another, and quite frankly I'm not sure I can take another 1 and Done DC. I might explode with rage. I like the looks he throws at them when the guys are milling around pre-snap and there might only be one guy down in a 3 point stance.

It just seems like so many TDs allowed this year are the result of one player's epic **** up, not terrible scheming. Unfortunately there's 4 or 5 TDs allowed by Dawkins burned into my brain. And obviously the pass rush suffers from the lack of anyone able to win a 1 on 1 battle, or draw a double team.
I agree with this completely. I think that Wink has put together some nice game plans (Tennessee/KC), and that when executed the defense flashes more potential than I've seen from a DC in Denver in a long time.

This team was completely devoid of defensive talent two years ago (I mean pitiful). We patched things together with aging vets and role players last year while seeking to infuse talent through the draft.

This year has been marked by injuries to our most talented players, take Dumervil away from the 09 unit, and they're far worse. We've also seen the veteran patches exposed as old. Most notably Dawkins and Goodman, but Champ has been thrown at far more than in years past, with far more success.

Overall, I think a huge part of the terrible defenses over the last decade has been a lack of continuity. Bates in particular set this defense way back by dumping good players and acquiring players who were lacked the versatility to play in anything other than a Bates specific role. And he was gone in a year.

Stability breeds stability, and after a decade of Shanahan scapegoating DCs, I think we'd be well show a little patience and see how the system and the young players mature.

db56
12-01-2010, 08:24 PM
all we really have to go is go back and look at the last decade or so of bronco drafts and its obvious at least too me why the D has been linked to some of the worst in NFL history..

doesnt really matter who the DC is if the talent on the field is made up of back up's or players with some potential but no experience.

with the talent that the steelers have, I could take my Madden 11 playbook and show up and scheme the D to a decent middle of the road type season.

what I see from Wink is an inexperienced DC thats learning on the job and trying to stop the bleeding from shotgun wounds with only band aids to work with. he's been throwing everything out there but the kitchen sink just trying to find something that will work.

give him another year and a good draft to work with...

oubronco
12-01-2010, 08:28 PM
all we really have to go is go back and look at the last decade or so of bronco drafts and its obvious at least too me why the D has been linked to some of the worst in NFL history..

doesnt really matter who the DC is if the talent on the field is made up of back up's or players with some potential but no experience.

with the talent that the steelers have, I could take my Madden 11 playbook and show up and scheme the D to a decent middle of the road type season.

what I see from Wink is an inexperienced DC thats learning on the job and trying to stop the bleeding from shotgun wounds with only band aids to work with. he's been throwing everything out there but the kitchen sink just trying to find something that will work.

give him another year and a good draft to work with...

It's going to take more than one draft to fix this

misturanderson
12-01-2010, 10:00 PM
It's going to take more than one draft to fix this

It most certainly will. We've got 10+ years of drafting next to nothing (at least nothing worthwhile) for that side of the ball and it's really caught up to us.

Here's to hoping that whoever is in charge of this upcoming draft makes many selections for the D and good ones.

Ratboy
12-01-2010, 10:13 PM
It's going to take more than one draft to fix this

We have the ability to go out there and make our defense better. We are just going to have to do a few things to include trading offensive players and not drafting offense.

Ratboy
12-01-2010, 10:15 PM
Some really good defense talent in the free agency market this offseason. The new coach needs to have a defensive backround, or better surround himself with smart and experienced folks who do.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2010, 10:15 PM
It's going to take more than one draft to fix this

Yep.

Something like a good draft and getting Elvis back would be a pretty goddamn good start.

Ratboy
12-01-2010, 10:23 PM
Yep.

Something like a good draft and getting Elvis back would be a pretty goddamn good start.

New coach
Healthy Elvis
Defensive draft
Defensive free agency

We will be headed in the right direction.

misturanderson
12-01-2010, 10:31 PM
Some really good defense talent in the free agency market this offseason. The new coach needs to have a defensive backround, or better surround himself with smart and experienced folks who do.
Who's going to be available?

Edit: Checked it out. Would be sweet to pick up any one or combination of Shaun Ellis, Ngata (pipe dream), Aubrayo Franklin, Johnny Jolly (assuming he isn't in jail), Cullen Jenkins or Harris.

zdoor
12-01-2010, 10:49 PM
Who's going to be available?

I'm pretty sure David Harris isn't resigned yet...

serious hops
12-01-2010, 11:10 PM
So it looks to me like the majority here feel it's more of an issue with talent.

So how do we best go about acquiring it? Are there any stud D-Linemen in this years' Free Agent class?

Haloti Ngata, but I'm sure the Vultures will franchise him if they can't reach a long-term deal. DE Cullen Jenkins from Green Bay is a legitimate beast, big and disruptive. I highly doubt they let him get to the open market either. And Miami NT Paul Soliai seems to have developed into a quality run stopper, although I don't watch the Dolphins much. And unfortunately, if that's really the case I would expect them to sign or franchise him as well. You never know, and sometimes a guy might become available for trade if they can't agree on a contract or something like that, but the options for adding top quality DLs through free agency will probably be pretty limited.

[Edit: I missed Aubrayo Franklin. I wonder if they'll send Manusky and the defensive staff packing along with Singletary? If they retain the 3-4 I would guess they'd also try to keep Franklin, but he may be a lesser priority if the new regime decides to go to a 4-3 for some reason.]

It looks like we might get a chance to draft Nick Fairley or Marcell Dareus, which would seem like a good start to me. We'll see. Building a really good D-line is rarely a simple or cheap process, but that's not an excuse for not trying. You keep patching it with band-aids, you should continue to expect mediocre results or worse. However we decide to approach it, it's past time to get the process started in earnest. We've invested heavily enough in the defensive backfield and offensive skill positions (and still need a safety and another solid RB), it absolutely has to be time to stock the defensive front seven with some real talent if we want to get any better on that side of the ball.

zdoor
12-01-2010, 11:15 PM
Haloti Ngata, but I'm sure the Vultures will franchise him if they can't reach a long-term deal. DE Cullen Jenkins from Green Bay is a legitimate beast, big and disruptive. I highly doubt they let him get to the open market either. And Miami NT Paul Soliai seems to have developed into a quality run stopper, although I don't watch the Dolphins much. And unfortunately, if that's really the case I would expect them to sign or franchise him as well. You never know, and sometimes a guy might become available for trade if they can't agree on a contract or something like that, but the options for adding top quality DLs through free agency will probably be pretty limited.

[Edit: I missed Aubrayo Franklin. I wonder if they'll send Manusky and the defensive staff packing along with Singletary? If they retain the 3-4 I would guess they'd also try to keep Franklin, but he may be a lesser priority if the new regime decides to go to a 4-3 for some reason.]

It looks like we might get a chance to draft Nick Fairley or Marcell Dareus, which would seem like a good start to me. We'll see. Building a really good D-line is rarely a simple or cheap process, but that's not an excuse for not trying. You keep patching it with band-aids, you should continue to expect mediocre results or worse. However we decide to approach it, it's past time to get the process started in earnest. We've invested heavily enough in the defensive backfield and offensive skill positions (and still need a safety and another solid RB), it absolutely has to be time to stock the defensive front seven with some real talent if we want to get any better on that side of the ball.

I would love Ngata but I can't imagine they'll let him leave... Didn't Franklin sign a contract after he got franchised?

PRBronco
12-01-2010, 11:16 PM
Who's going to be available?

Edit: Checked it out. Would be sweet to pick up any one or combination of Shaun Ellis, Ngata (pipe dream), Aubrayo Franklin, Johnny Jolly (assuming he isn't in jail), Cullen Jenkins or Harris.

Hey where's a good place to check upcoming free agents? I wish the NFL had a http://www.capgeek.com

misturanderson
12-02-2010, 12:07 AM
Hey where's a good place to check upcoming free agents? I wish the NFL had a http://www.capgeek.com

I just typed in "2011 NFL free agents" into google and found a list. It was from May, so I had to check some of the guys against their rotoworld profile to see if they had been signed. The guys left on my list are the only ones that are still available (I edited out 4 or 5 of them from my original "want list").

misturanderson
12-02-2010, 12:07 AM
I would love Ngata but I can't imagine they'll let him leave... Didn't Franklin sign a contract after he got franchised?

Not according to rotoworld.

footstepsfrom#27
12-02-2010, 12:33 AM
This year, we have a defense even worse than Slowick's (the 2010 D's 50 points allowed game was even worse than 2008s!). However, I've heard very few complaints about Martindale compared to previous coordinators. Why is this? I myself have been far less peeved at our D-Coordinator than in years past.

I guess what I'm trying to ask the community here is, what is at the root of our struggles on defense? Is it talent or coaching? One of my coaches from high school once told me "It's not the X's and O's but the Jimmys and the Joes." I think I agree with him when it comes to the 2010 Defense. We are simply lacking a lot of talent that Wink can work with, including our two best pass rushers. When watching games I rarely find myself questioning Martindale's competence like I did Coyer, Bates or Slowick.

Thoughts?
Martindale is getting off easy because most of the fan base is collectively focusing their wrath on his boss so he's flying under the radar. In the Shanny years people were reluctant to turn loose of the hope that Shanny still had it so it was easy to blame his mistakes on the same guy he did...the DC. Since he had skins on the wall he could get away with it. McDaniels has no skins, so he can't take that approach...or when he did anyway, you see the result; people peeved that he fired Nolan. As for Wink Martindale, I'm like you, but basically I'm not sure he knows what he's doing either.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-02-2010, 07:04 AM
So Nolan WAS fired. How about that.

ScottXray
12-02-2010, 09:43 AM
Oh, and we need more talent. No question.

First off, no-pass rush = a **** defense, these days. Elvis going down relegated us to a marginal defense, at best. We need him back, and other threats.

We also need secondary help... and I'm not wild about DJ Williams in the middle.

We need to look for...

-IMPACT DL
-IMPACT ILB
-Safety help
-Secondary help

With multiple early draft picks and free agency, I think we can improve... quickly.

+1 on all the needs. I think that talent (especially missing a Pass rush ) is the primary problem.

Martindale does seem unable to scheme effective blitzes
, as he seems to think an overload blitz means everyone tries to run towards the QB from within the two O tackles position. Rushing 6 straight up the gut is going to fail, especially if the outside defenders have to cover recievers. And if a RB leaks out then comes across the middle there is no one to cover him.

With better talent the defense would be able to get off the field more, even in 3rd and long, by forcing the QB to throw earlier than he wants. I do think he is able to stop the run, something that hasn't been seen here for 3-4 years.

We nned a pass rush to step it up against the pass.

Mile High Shack
12-02-2010, 09:57 AM
it's talent and coaching

there have been numerous times, the opposing offense ran the same play over and over again throughout the game and the defense failed to adjust

it's a really bad mix, which creates the cluster we have right now, possibly the worst defense in the NFL

a bad mix of aging talent, no talent and bad coaching

TotallyScrewed
12-02-2010, 10:05 AM
The loss of the two best pass rushers has given Wink some cover. McD provides the distraction. But next year, he'll have to retool.

I really hope that Doom and Ayers come back 100% and quickly but I'm doubtful as that has not been the way for other injured Broncos this year. I'll keep hoping though.

I agree with Popps about 55. I don't know if he's trying to do too much or is just not playing his role well.

LRtagger
12-02-2010, 10:26 AM
Martindale HAS to play man outside with safety help up top and dawkins in the box. He has to have 8 in the box to stop the rush on running downs and he has to bring at least 5 guys to get any pressure on the QB.

If we rush 3 or 4 and drop everyone else into zone coverage, we get picked apart. Martindale has to rely on our corners making plays because he has to scheme the front 7 to create a pass rush. This is a talent problem. We have no one on the front 7 that can create pressure on his own (Doom). This creates scheming and coverage problems.

We also have no one in the middle that can stuff the run or collapse the pocket without linebacker help.

So we end up having to get creative with the front 7, use a safety for run support and take LBs out of coverage to blitz (more than you would want to) and leave our rookie corner and our vet corner who is on the decline out on the edges covering guys man2man; expecting them to blanket the WR for 5, 6, 7 seconds while we wait for QB pressure.

The ultimate problem is talent, but a really good DC would be able to create pressure, turnovers with marginal talent. I would say Wink isnt the problem, but he isn't doing anything to help overcome the problem; the problem being lack of talent and depth.

HooptyHoops
12-02-2010, 01:28 PM
Talent wins. They tried to get bigger but forgot to get better. Coaches are overrated imo.

Man, I was in the same boat once upon a time, but my opinion changed very quickly. I won a state tourney in high school, our coach left to be a college coach, we returned all of our starters the following year and we didn't even make state.

So, coaches are needed big time...although, you need talent too!

I guess I'm in the boat that we need more talent, as I don't know what Wink can do with a decent NFL roster!! After we have the talent, that will give us a better gauge on how well Wink coaches!

Bronco Yoda
12-02-2010, 01:31 PM
Great coaches can squeeze a little here and there to make a difference. But in the end it's mostly about the talent on the field. We've been lacking here for some time now.

zdoor
12-02-2010, 01:42 PM
Martindale HAS to play man outside with safety help up top and dawkins in the box. He has to have 8 in the box to stop the rush on running downs and he has to bring at least 5 guys to get any pressure on the QB.

If we rush 3 or 4 and drop everyone else into zone coverage, we get picked apart. Martindale has to rely on our corners making plays because he has to scheme the front 7 to create a pass rush. This is a talent problem. We have no one on the front 7 that can create pressure on his own (Doom). This creates scheming and coverage problems.

We also have no one in the middle that can stuff the run or collapse the pocket without linebacker help.

So we end up having to get creative with the front 7, use a safety for run support and take LBs out of coverage to blitz (more than you would want to) and leave our rookie corner and our vet corner who is on the decline out on the edges covering guys man2man; expecting them to blanket the WR for 5, 6, 7 seconds while we wait for QB pressure.

The ultimate problem is talent, but a really good DC would be able to create pressure, turnovers with marginal talent. I would say Wink isnt the problem, but he isn't doing anything to help overcome the problem; the problem being lack of talent and depth.

We stay in man almost every play. We are too easy to game plan for... But I agree on the talent issue being the main problem. I don't see any creativity with the scheme though..

LRtagger
12-02-2010, 01:46 PM
We stay in man almost every play. We are too easy to game plan for... But I agree on the talent issue being the main problem. I don't see any creativity with the scheme though..

We played some zone early against Rivers and he killed us.

zdoor
12-02-2010, 01:59 PM
We played some zone early against Rivers and he killed us.

Not doubting you but must have been a handful of plays, I've pretty much seem one crappy man scheme... And for the life of me I can't figure out why hill is so far back that he is only going to have a chance on impacting a minimal amount of plays...

LRtagger
12-02-2010, 03:09 PM
Well IMO its because we have no pass rush. Zones get obliterated when the QB can be a statue. At least with 2 deep man (or 1 deep man in our case) you have an opportunity to make a play. Unfortunately for us we have a rookie corner playing opposite a corner on the decline of his career and we are expecting them both to make all the plays for us. On top of that we really dont have a LB or a safety that can cover.

Zone seems like the solution to that, but if the QB has 10 seconds to throw its very easy to find a gap in the zone and eat up yards.

I know for a fact on SD's first TD they were inside the 10 and we dropped 8 guys into zone coverage and rushed 3. Even with only <20 yards to cover they still broke down the coverage quickly and scored an easy TD. Phillis had all day to throw. He even started to scramble around the pocket expecting that he was getting pressured, but then he realized he wasnt and he resumed scanning the field. It was pitiful that 8 guys couldnt cover less than 20 yards of field.

LRtagger
12-02-2010, 03:12 PM
Also please remember that we have Ed Donatell who was with us for the super bowl years and who has been a successful DC in this league on our staff. I'm sure he has input in gameplanning as well. He's a proven and successful guy, so if there's anything that could be corrected in the secondary as far as scheme goes, he could help there. I'm quite confident it comes down to talent.

DenverBrit
12-02-2010, 04:43 PM
If defensive talent had been a priority the last 10 years, there wouldn't have been the turnover at DC.

It doesn't matter who the DC is, the talent is not there....we basically have a defense consisting of backups and players on the downside.