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View Full Version : Debunktion Junction Comes To Adam Schein’s County


crush17
12-01-2010, 11:04 AM
http://onemanfootball.com/2010/11/30/debunktion-junction-comes-to-adam-scheins-county/

Another Ted Bartlett article. I agree with most of this, although I think he definitely goes a bit too easy on the coaching staff in general.

For the most part, this is spot on.

yerner
12-01-2010, 11:11 AM
I like how he say Schein writes like a radio guy. Too bad Barflett writes like a plumber.

strafen
12-01-2010, 11:14 AM
That's totally garbage.
Adam Schein had more credibility than this guy acting like a butt-hurt fan calling names to former players
If the guy wants to refute somebody else's take on this, do it with class and in an objective manner.
To say this guy is spot on is utterly ridiculous...

crush17
12-01-2010, 11:16 AM
What's he wrong about?

Popps
12-01-2010, 11:50 AM
As for Hillis, he definitely had a couple good games for the Broncos as a rookie, but he was Shanahan’s 5th choice as the starting Tailback, behind Andre Hall, Selvin Young, Michael Pittman, and Ryan Torain. (Shanahan didn’t like him at FB, either, because of his blocking deficiencies. Spencer Larsen mostly started, as he does today for the Broncos.)

I'm told the simple explanation for this would have been... how could Shanahan have EVER known a late-round pick would have been any good at running the ball! I mean, where had he ever seen THAT before?

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/30158/Terrell_Davis_1996.jpg

http://www.sportsblink.com/product_images/olandis-gary-denver-broncos-protecting-ball-autographed-photograph-3337551.jpg

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/01/14/1137297507_4974.jpg

colonelbeef
12-01-2010, 11:55 AM
Lol @ Poops grasping at the "blame shanahan too" straw

Shanahan drafted him as an all purpose FB, and tried to keep him there until injury made his transition a necessity.

Drawing a comparison to McScandals throwing Hilllis away for a plate of hot garbage is really stupid, even for you.

Popps
12-01-2010, 12:03 PM
What's he wrong about?

He presents factual information in place of hopes or opinions.

That simply doesn't fly on the Orange Mane.

bendog
12-01-2010, 12:16 PM
I was less pissed when shanny failed to bring in ben jarvis green-ellis as an undrafted FA and he went to NE instead than I was either when McD drafted Moreno at 11 (he's a nice back but not that nice) or traded for Maroney. And I found his shooting his third 3rd pick on Claret amusing. Show some talent and Shanny would bring in Ted Bundy for a workout.

Caveat Lector
12-01-2010, 12:34 PM
What's he wrong about?

He's not wrong about anything, its just that articles such as these don't get as many hits as over dramatic 'fire, fire, fire' articles baying for blood do. People don't want to listen to reason.

What makes this article even better is the screen shots of Josina's moronic tweets. If she had half a brain it'd be lonely...

bendog
12-01-2010, 12:43 PM
And he didn't mention A Smith and Matt Millen ... not that I read it carefully. It's puff.

Rohirrim
12-01-2010, 12:46 PM
I just hope Bartlett is right.

Popps
12-01-2010, 12:48 PM
He's not wrong about anything, its just that articles such as these don't get as many hits as over dramatic 'fire, fire, fire' articles baying for blood do. People don't want to listen to reason.

What makes this article even better is the screen shots of Josina's moronic tweets. If she had half a brain it'd be lonely...

But to be fair, no one really considers her a journalist.... people...

*THIS POST EDITED TO COMPLY WITH ORANGEMANE POLICY*

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2010, 12:49 PM
I also wonder what was so wrong about the article. He took misinformation from Schein and corrected it.

So... where's the fire?

bendog
12-01-2010, 12:51 PM
We're a better team now than in 08 ... you betcha.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2010, 12:56 PM
We're a better team now than in 08 ... you betcha.

Huh. Must have missed in the article where that point was made.

bendog
12-01-2010, 12:57 PM
Well, then "Josh's" personnel moves have just been .... mahvelous, and the blog was an epic detailed debunktion.

TheReverend
12-01-2010, 12:58 PM
http://www.sportsblink.com/product_images/olandis-gary-denver-broncos-protecting-ball-autographed-photograph-3337551.jpg

Also got his playing chance due to injuries (TD)

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/01/14/1137297507_4974.jpg

Also got his playing chance due to injuries (TD)

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/30158/Terrell_Davis_1996.jpg

He entered TC as the sixth running back. Was a starter by week one, but also was showing off HoF talent, so not sure how this could apply.

Kaylore
12-01-2010, 01:12 PM
He's right about a lot of things. Most of all, Scheffler. People still pine for him and outside of his twice yearly big game in losing causes against the Bolts, on the rare occasions when he stayed on the field he didn't do anything. And people around here still pretend he's "with" Marshall and Cutler. I saw a post just the other day saying we miss his big play ability. Has he broken 500 yards in a season EVER?

The one thing this guy can't argue against that Schein has him on is the wins and loses. Even without Dumervil, this team should be better than a 3 win team. Especially when McDaniels himself admits to not having answers for other teams' in game adjustments.

colonelbeef
12-01-2010, 01:17 PM
He's right about a lot of things. Most of all, Scheffler. People still pine for him and outside of his twice yearly big game in losing causes against the Bolts, on the rare occasions when he stayed on the field he didn't do anything. And people around here still pretend he's "with" Marshall and Cutler. I saw a post just the other day saying we miss his big play ability. Has he broken 500 yards in a season EVER?

The one thing this guy can't argue against that Schein has him on is the wins and loses. Even without Dumervil, this team should be better than a 3 win team. Especially when McDaniels himself admits to not having answers for other teams' in game adjustments.


Yes, twice with the Broncos. Lol.

broncocalijohn
12-01-2010, 01:22 PM
Popps, you want to bring up late round talent for Davis in comparison for Hillis. Everyone in front of Hillis was playing well so Hillis had to wait his turn. Please stop making excuses for McD anymore. The proof is in the pudding. He screwed up and 99.5% of the fans know it. Making excuses for him looks horrible to those 99.5%.

bendog
12-01-2010, 01:25 PM
He's right about a lot of things. Most of all, Scheffler. People still pine for him and outside of his twice yearly big game in losing causes against the Bolts, on the rare occasions when he stayed on the field he didn't do anything. And people around here still pretend he's "with" Marshall and Cutler. I saw a post just the other day saying we miss his big play ability. Has he broken 500 yards in a season EVER?

The one thing this guy can't argue against that Schein has him on is the wins and loses. Even without Dumervil, this team should be better than a 3 win team. Especially when McDaniels himself admits to not having answers for other teams' in game adjustments.

Shein's take was that McD has taken personnel moves that even Matt Millen wouldn't do. That's hyperbole, but literally what Shein said. That's harsh and I don't think Millen is above trading a 20 for a 40, but it's also that 2009 was a debacle that even just taking the names that went in the draft slots of the guys denver took and passed on would have yeilded Orakapo/Cushing, Ayers, and Earl Thomas. People can complain about Doom being hurt and lacking playmakers on defense BUT THE REASON WE LACK PLAYMAKERS IS MCD'S 2009 DRAFT.

The hillis thing is really a red herring. Who knew he was that good. But we knew he was a legit back if healthy. So the trade came back to bite Den on the ass, but that's not really the thing. McD trades guys to create MORE holes. The Shein piece was just a chance to take a swipe at McD. Kick a guy when he's down.

So, the "debunk" comes down to this guy saying he's going to talk aobut "football technique" and he goes off on personnel. His ultimate take is Orton>Lambchop, Lloyd>Marshall...... been there done that. McD had bet his future on Tebow. If that works, the crazy stuff will be forgotten. If not this will have been an epic Sabanesque fail

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2010, 01:25 PM
Popps, you want to bring up late round talent for Davis in comparison for Hillis. Everyone in front of Hillis was playing well so Hillis had to wait his turn. Please stop making excuses for McD anymore. The proof is in the pudding. He screwed up and 99.5% of the fans know it. Making excuses for him looks horrible to those 99.5%.

They were playing so well, in fact, that Hillis led the team in rushing... as a four game starter.

Yeah, with all those guys playing so well in front of him, it's simply miraculous that Hillis ever saw the field.

zdoor
12-01-2010, 01:32 PM
He presents factual information in place of hopes or opinions.

That simply doesn't fly on the Orange Mane.

Look, I hope he is right but come on it is mostly opinion based on opinion, not fact.

The photgrapher acted on his own... fair enough. That is what the NFL found. Schein's opinion was different as was Bill Cowhers, Jimmy Johnson, Pat Kirwas and several other talking heads. All those are based on speculation and experience, which could be wrong...

McDaniels people skills suck leading to numerous amounts of talent leaving the building What about that is wrong that is based on fact much as the statement itself is based on opinion. You can believe whatever you want but to me lots of talent has left and I think at least some it is due to McDaniels immaturity and inexperience (or people skills).. If you believe different and that Schein is wrong and Bartlett is right, great. That is your opinion and I can respect that. But guess what, because someone else's opinion is different doesn't make yours fact or theirs wrong... Both points of view are based on opinion.

Shanny was canned and McDaniels brought in to get over the hump People here spout we are rebuilding and that was the case from the start. Well guess what, that is also an opinion. I can respect it but it doesn't make it correct. I saw a young team with holes on the O-line and massive deficiencies on d but with a great amount of potential. Could
I be wrong, absolutely, but so could the opposing point of view. Neither is fact and spouting ad nauseum that we are in full rebuild and were when McDaniels was hired is just a juvenile and one sided as the opposite point of view making every discussion into fire McDaniels. We ended up in full rebuild as a result of McDaniels hiring but I highly doubt that was Bowlens intention when McDaniels was brought in. Again that is my opinion and you are entitiled to yours. Who's right, depends on your point of view but stop telling me your opinion is rooted in fact, it isn't...

It all went horribly wrong after McDAniels was hired Well that is a fair opinion. IF yours is diferent fine by me. Cutler was a self induced nightmare. Was Cutler to blame and an immature kid. Hell Yes. Did McDaniels inexperience play a major role. IMO abolsutely. Again it is an opinion. Just like Bartletts view that Cassel is better than Cutler and McDaniels acted correctly. I actually agree Bowlen screwed the pooch there too but again it is my opinion just like an opposite view is, you guessed it, an opinion. If you disagree, great, that is fine and I respect your opinion. But, don't tell me any of theses "views" are factual. You ahve no clue what the facts really were and neither do I.

Marshall and Schefler wew traded as a result of McDaniels frosty personality It's an opinion and one I don't totally agree with. I actually think he handled Marshall correctly. Scheffler is another story but regardless of your view, the only factual statement that can be madde is we don't have a TE that can catch on the roster after trading him. Was it McDaniels personality that caused them to clash, could be and could have nothing to do with it but it is an opinion, not fact.

Ayers was a project Most draft prognistactors said he was including MAyock, who many here tout as the best... Again it's an opinion. I actually like Ayers and thought we screwed the pouch on going RB at 12, but that is my opinion. If yours is diferent more power to you. Obviously the results of the draft are incomplete but initials returns on draft #1 are pretty bad considering the amount of picks we had.

Alphonso Smith was an error of epic proportions I am shocked anybody doesn;'t agree with this view. Good clubs valkue picks and rarely trade up, the best often trade down. This picked sucked as did what we gave for it, as did trading the kid for a 3rd string TE one year later. Again, my opinion but the facts would tend to support this argument. If your opinion differs, more power to you and may god help you...

Peyton Hillis was a collosal mistake An opinion, albeit one I totally agree with. Yeah McDaniels wasn't likely to use him which to me is another indictment of McDaiels and his inability to make use of the talent he has. Are their other opinions, yes of course. Is mine based on fact? No, neither is an opposite point of view.

Nolan and Mcdaniels relationship was strained as a result of McDaniels prickly personality and desire to put his "touch on the D" Opinion yes, one I agree with. But so is any other view... The result however show McDaniels imprint to be lacking and the inabiltiy to ever adjust during games. Yeah injuries are a huge part but I'm sorry the scheme sucks, IMO... If yours is diferent fine but its still an opinion. Nothing factual here other than the 2 coaches couldn't find common ground and split. Again to me this an indictment on McDaniels. Not for his personality but because he doesn't seem to be able to use the talent he had and as a result, it is gone, just like Turner and Dennnison... Still an opinion....


I could go on but hopefully that is enough. Please stop telling me the article is based in fact and any other view is biased BS with an Agenda. Hate to break to anyone, but both views are opinion. Nothing here is factual. If you believe we are showing promise and should stay the course, fine. I can respect that and hope you are right. But, if someone doesn't like the constant drama and thinks the team is floundering and getting worse, that is also a fair opinion that at this point is no less valid than any other view... Please don't preach about anything here being factual, it isn't...

Sorry about the typo's... typing on a touch screen...

24champ
12-01-2010, 01:34 PM
What's he wrong about?

Not a lot. It doesn't have drama and the fire everyone storyline that sells papers and drives up traffic on sites.

NYBronco
12-01-2010, 01:35 PM
Another great read along with the following response to the article.
I'm becoming a big fan of Ted's.



Ben Boyd
Dec 01, 2010 @ 08:52:01

Great job Ted. Always love your stuff my friend. A problem we have is an uneducated Fan Base who are generally petulant whiners. They almost remind me of rudderless populace that will follow anyone that tells them what they want to hear, yet dont have the smarts to determine whether what they are hearing is correct or incorrect (much how Hitler came to power in Germany!).
I like McDaniels….a lot. he has made some mistakes for sure, but he is smart, and as a coach myself, I like the way he plans LONG TERM and how he wears the failures on himself.
Its not his scheme, its a lack of players to carry it out. The plan relies on fundamentally sound football players not making mistakes and playing as a cog in the football machine. The problem we have is that McD and the coaches are teaching these footballing fundamentals almost as much as they are coaching scheme……one cog fails, the machine grinds to a halt. Thus the reason for WILD inconsistency. When the machine runs properly, we see the Chiefs game….its just getting that consistency!

bendog
12-01-2010, 01:42 PM
(much how Hitler came to power in Germany!).
-
Sweet Mother of Christ.

broncocalijohn
12-01-2010, 01:44 PM
What's he wrong about?

He is wrong about defending spending away our 1st rounder for a 2nd rounder that no one had as a first rounder (or he would have been selected there) and he forgets to point out that Alphonso is now gone due to sucking eggs. He is wrong about Hillis as the excuse to get rid of him and then comments that his fumbles are too high in Cleveland yet if you compare to some other star running backs, he is lower %-wise. I dont disagree with the whole article, but his rebuttal looks like it could have been done by one of our own McD lickers.

gyldenlove
12-01-2010, 01:49 PM
“throws the ball to his opponents way too much, especially in the scoring area. Outperformed individually by his replacement Kyle Orton, without any question.”

<FONT color=black>Considering our red zone offense was much better with Cutler than with Orton I would say that is somewhere between incorrect and badly wrong. Our 3<SUP>rd</SUP> down and red zone conversion rates have dropped a lot since 2008, a year when Cutler had 4 4<SUP>th</SUP> quarter game winning TD passes, a number Orton has yet to reach in his 27 games in Denver (for the record he has 3).<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.orangemane.com/BB/ /><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></FONT></P><P><FONT size=3><FONT face=
“On the field, Scheffler fumbled, dropped passes, and missed blocks frequently, and he’s done nothing very noteworthy in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.orangemane.com/BB/ /><st1:City w:st=<st1:place w:st="on">Detroit</st1:place></st1:City>.”
<o:p></o:p>
Scheffler has more receptions, yards and fewer fumbles than Graham, Quinn and Gronkowski this year combined and individually, and it is a down year for Scheffler.<o:p></o:p>

“Football Outsiders’ pythagorean formula said the 2008 Broncos should have been a 4-12 team, and they were probably right.”<o:p></o:p>

“Often craptastic football outsider” That is what you thought about Football outsider recently, it seems odd you would use their highly speculative and inaccurate measure to support an argument. The 2009 Broncos were a 7-9 team corrected for Ed Hochuli. <o:p></o:p>

“The defense was literally the worst I’ve ever seen. It was absolutely hopeless in every way. The offense moved the ball well, but committed too many turnovers, and didn’t score points when it had opportunities to do so.”<o:p></o:p>

The defense this year is worse than the 2008 defense. 2008: 28 points per game, 2010: 29.4, 2008: 13 turnovers, 2010: 11 (expected 16 for the year). You should check this years defense if you want to see a worse defense. 2010 offense: 26 turnovers (38 expected for the year), 2008 offense: 36. 3<SUP>rd</SUP> down conversion, 2008: 48%, 2010: 34%. The 2010 offense is turning the ball over more than the 2008 offense did and converting many fewer 3<SUP>rd</SUP> downs and scoring fewer points per game.<o:p></o:p>

“Matt Cassel has produced on the field better than Cutler has, too.”<o:p></o:p>

Is it his 11-15 record with the Chiefs over Cutlers 15-12 record with the Bears that impress you the most or is it his 38 TDs to Cutlers 43 or is it 5200 yards to Cutlers 6000?<o:p></o:p>

“I believe that Cutler’s comments to the media probably offended and troubled McDaniels, before he even was hired.”<o:p></o:p>

And yet the day he was hired he said:<o:p></o:p>
"Jay is very talented. I have had an opportunity to watch him a number of times on film and in person once this year. He has a lot of ability. I know just from some of the information that I gathered on him coming out of college that he is a very intelligent person, a very intelligent player. He does a lot of things well. I think Jay is going to enjoy playing in this system, this offense. It is very quarterback friendly once you get to the point where you can use all the tools that it gives the quarterback. Obviously he is a very important part of our success going forward and I can't wait to get started working with him." Josh Mcdaniels press conference after he was hired.<o:p></o:p>

That doesn’t sound like someone who is offended and expecting a difficult relationship. I Think the fact that Cutler was at <st1:place w:st="on"><ST1:PDove valley</st1:place> every day working over the playbook with Mcdaniels right after he was hired is a good indication that you are wrong.
<o:p></o:p>
“Meanwhile, Wink Martindale’s scheme has been fine, if the execution hasn’t always been, mostly due to a ton of man-games lost on that side of the ball by key players.”
<o:p></o:p>
Really, it has been fine? The worst defense in Broncos history has been fine? I am not sure if you are mad or blind, but clearly one of the two. Martindale took over a defense that Nolan put in the top half of the league in every important category including points, yards, turnovers and sacks. Martindale has managed to put that defense with the addition of talented players like Perrish Cox, Jamal Williams, Justin Bannan, Joe Mays and Jason Hunter last in the league in points, in the bottom 10 in yards, turnovers, sacks and 3<SUP>rd</SUP> down conversions.<o:p></o:p>

broncocalijohn
12-01-2010, 01:58 PM
They were playing so well, in fact, that Hillis led the team in rushing... as a four game starter.

Yeah, with all those guys playing so well in front of him, it's simply miraculous that Hillis ever saw the field.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/2008.htm

next time look up the reference before trying to be cute.

G GS Att Yds TD Lng Y/A Y/G A/G Rec Yds Y/R TD Lng R/G Y/G YScm RRTD Fmb
Michael Pittman 8 3 76 320 4 20 4.2 40.0 9.5 10 112 11.2 0 40 1.3 14.0 432 4 0
P. Hillis 12 6 68 343 5 19 5.0 28.6 5.7 14 179 12.8 1 47 1.2 14.9 522 6 0
Selvin Young 8 5 61 303 1 49 5.0 37.9 7.6 3 16 5.3 0 8 0.4 2.0 319 1 1
Tatum Bell 7 3 44 249 2 37 5.7 35.6 6.3 10 57 5.7 0 12 1.4 8.1 306 2 0
Andre Hall 8 0 35 144 0 16 4.1 18.0 4.4 3 25 8.3 0 11 0.4 3.1 169 0 2
P.J. Pope 5 1 17 130 0 24 7.6 26.0 3.4 3 24 8.0 1 16 0.6 4.8 154 1 0
Ryan Torain 2 1 15 69 1 19 4.6 34.5 7.5 69 1 0


Yards average where great. Hillis started 4 at RB maybe but look at everyone else. Hillis over those games proved he should have had a better opportunity to play more than a handful of games. Not sure what side you are falling on, but at least be accurate on a rebuttal.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2010, 03:35 PM
Really, it has been fine? The worst defense in Broncos history has been fine? I am not sure if you are mad or blind, but clearly one of the two. Martindale took over a defense that Nolan put in the top half of the league in every important category including points, yards, turnovers and sacks. Martindale has managed to put that defense with the addition of talented players like Perrish Cox, Jamal Williams, Justin Bannan, Joe Mays and Jason Hunter last in the league in points, in the bottom 10 in yards, turnovers, sacks and 3<SUP>rd</SUP> down conversions.<o:p></o:p>[/FONT]

Really.

Yep, we lost the league's sack leader for the season before the season even began, and you're surprised that we don't have as many sacks? Really? REALLY?

We lose the league's sack leader for the season and you're surprised that the other talent that would have been alongside him on the line isn't as effective? Really?

It all starts up front. And with a healthy Elvis, every bit of that defensive front 7 is better. Accounting for a guy like that leaves holes elsewhere. That's how it works.

Really.

TheReverend
12-01-2010, 03:46 PM
Really.

Yep, we lost the league's sack leader for the season before the season even began, and you're surprised that we don't have as many sacks? Really? REALLY?

We lose the league's sack leader for the season and you're surprised that the other talent that would have been alongside him on the line isn't as effective? Really?

It all starts up front. And with a healthy Elvis, every bit of that defensive front 7 is better. Accounting for a guy like that leaves holes elsewhere. That's how it works.

Really.

Mike Nolan wants to know if you've met Cameron Wake?

:rofl:

elsid13
12-01-2010, 04:56 PM
They were playing so well, in fact, that Hillis led the team in rushing... as a four game starter.

Yeah, with all those guys playing so well in front of him, it's simply miraculous that Hillis ever saw the field.

Maybe because they were all hurt

gyldenlove
12-01-2010, 07:27 PM
Really.

Yep, we lost the league's sack leader for the season before the season even began, and you're surprised that we don't have as many sacks? Really? REALLY?

We lose the league's sack leader for the season and you're surprised that the other talent that would have been alongside him on the line isn't as effective? Really?

It all starts up front. And with a healthy Elvis, every bit of that defensive front 7 is better. Accounting for a guy like that leaves holes elsewhere. That's how it works.

Really.

Do you really Believe that Elvis Dumervil is the difference between 8 points per game, 2 sacks and 1 turnover? Because in 2008 when did have him, he sure didn't seem to be all that. I know it is a scary concept to some people, but Elvis was only great with Nolan, maybe Nolan was the difference.

Merlin
12-01-2010, 07:36 PM
(much how Hitler came to power in Germany!).
-
Sweet Mother of Christ.
+1

You know you are dealing with intellectually dishonest people and/or morons when this level of stupidity surfaces as an argument.

Merlin
12-01-2010, 07:40 PM
We lose the league's sack leader for the season and you're surprised that the other talent that would have been alongside him on the line isn't as effective? Really?
Were you no alive last year in the last 10 games of the season??? Doom was around, yet our D was atrocious...this fantasy that the failure of the D is because of Doom's injury totally ignores the utter failure of the D in the second half of last season while Doom was around. When you must twist logic like a pretzel to make your point you know your argument is on very thin ice.

misturanderson
12-01-2010, 08:18 PM
Were you no alive last year in the last 10 games of the season??? Doom was around, yet our D was atrocious...this fantasy that the failure of the D is because of Doom's injury totally ignores the utter failure of the D in the second half of last season while Doom was around. When you must twist logic like a pretzel to make your point you know your argument is on very thin ice.
Then the logical conclusion to make is that the defensive talent simply sucks because Nolan was able to cover up those deficiencies for 6 games then the bottom fell out.

Unfortunately this year it sucks for many of the same reasons as last year (frequently poor defensive line play by aging stopgaps and starting players that should be playing rotational roles in a decent NFL D) with the addition of injuries to both OLB starters, one of the starting CBs from last year, both safeties at times and a major drop off in play of those same safeties.

Our defense wasn't as good as it looked at the beginning of last year and now half of the players that were good enough to stick around are out or playing injured/getting too old.

McDaniels should have done more to address the D through the draft, or better yet we should have had an experienced GM that was picking players without thinking about the prospect of calling plays for them. Unfortunately we're left with what has happened this year and if McDaniels neglects the defense even slightly (as in: using our top pick, more than 1 of the first 4 or more than 2 total picks on offense) in the upcoming draft, he should be fired the next day.

I do think that he should have the opportunity to make that draft though as the prospect of blowing up the offense again (which would probably happen if we bring in anyone else since nobody else we could get runs that system) with this awful defense won't be pretty. I just hope he doesn't pull a Shanahan 2007 draft.

strafen
12-01-2010, 08:43 PM
Do you really Believe that Elvis Dumervil is the difference between 8 points per game, 2 sacks and 1 turnover? Because in 2008 when did have him, he sure didn't seem to be all that. I know it is a scary concept to some people, but Elvis was only great with Nolan, maybe Nolan was the difference.Very good point.
This is a different scheme. Not sure Doom would've had equal numbers...

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2010, 09:19 PM
Were you no alive last year in the last 10 games of the season??? Doom was around, yet our D was atrocious...this fantasy that the failure of the D is because of Doom's injury totally ignores the utter failure of the D in the second half of last season while Doom was around. When you must twist logic like a pretzel to make your point you know your argument is on very thin ice.

Gee, you're right. The NFL's sack leader being out for the whole season is just an excuse. He would make no difference whatsoever, and he totally wouldn't make those around him -- like Ayers who stands to benefit greatly from Elvis' return -- any better.

Keep talking, Merlin. It's really funny stuff.

And for the millionth time, getting Elvis back isn't about ONE player. It's about seeing the defense how it was meant to function. Elvis is a speed rusher. Ayers sets the edge in the run game. Jamal Williams takes up space in the middle, with Bannan as support, and allows our linebackers to make plays in space.

Williams isn't in his prime anymore. He can still produce, but there MUST be a threat on the outside. Elvis was that threat, and we haven't seen him this year.

Again: it's not about the return of ONE GUY. It's about the return of how the defense was designed and schemed.

Popps
12-01-2010, 09:21 PM
Were you no alive last year in the last 10 games of the season??? Doom was around, yet our D was atrocious...this fantasy that the failure of the D is because of Doom's injury totally ignores the utter failure of the D in the second half of last season while Doom was around. When you must twist logic like a pretzel to make your point you know your argument is on very thin ice.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding... so you're saying that Doom wouldn't have helped our defense?

How about a healthy Ayers? He wouldn't have helped this year, either?

How about both of them together?

Still no help?

Taco John
12-02-2010, 01:04 AM
Maybe I'm misunderstanding... so you're saying that Doom wouldn't have helped our defense?

How about a healthy Ayers? He wouldn't have helped this year, either?

How about both of them together?

Still no help?



How is it that when Shanahan has injuries out the wazoo, he manages to pull out an 8-8 season, and lose his job with people kicking him on his way out the door, but when Josh is faced with injuries, he turns in a three win effort come December, and is considered a media martyr?

Of course a healthy Ayers and Doom would make a difference on our defense. But who installed the more physical practices that were aimed at making the team tougher and smarter. What's your take on how that philosophy is working out right about now? Just bad luck for poor misfortunate Josh?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-02-2010, 06:08 AM
So you were against the physical practices, TJ? Seems like everyone was on board at the time.

Dumervil's injury came in a non-contact drill, so I don't really see how it's relevant.

orinjkrush
12-02-2010, 06:32 AM
i like reading Ted Bartlett. But reading this article made me feel like i was in Pandora, and that i couldn't use my own eyes but had to see the world through an avatar, i.e. him.

rugbythug
12-02-2010, 06:40 AM
Mike Nolan wants to know if you've met Cameron Wake?

:rofl:

Camerone wake would be stud with or without nolan. Just like elvis was putting up sacks before him.

Mountain Bronco
12-02-2010, 08:32 AM
Doom would have helped and Ayers did help, but not all that much when he was on the field. I don't think one player can help a historically bad defense all that much. Maybe we would be in the low 20's as far as D ranks, but that is still bad.

SonOfLe-loLang
12-02-2010, 08:39 AM
“throws the ball to his opponents way too much, especially in the scoring area. Outperformed individually by his replacement Kyle Orton, without any question.”

<FONT color=black>Considering our red zone offense was much better with Cutler than with Orton I would say that is somewhere between incorrect and badly wrong. Our 3<SUP>rd</SUP> down and red zone conversion rates have dropped a lot since 2008, a year when Cutler had 4 4<SUP>th</SUP> quarter game winning TD passes, a number Orton has yet to reach in his 27 games in Denver (for the record he has 3).<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.orangemane.com/BB/ /><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></FONT></P><P><FONT size=3><FONT face=
“On the field, Scheffler fumbled, dropped passes, and missed blocks frequently, and he’s done nothing very noteworthy in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.orangemane.com/BB/ /><st1:City w:st=<st1:place w:st="on">Detroit</st1:place></st1:City>.”
<o:p></o:p>
Scheffler has more receptions, yards and fewer fumbles than Graham, Quinn and Gronkowski this year combined and individually, and it is a down year for Scheffler.<o:p></o:p>

“Football Outsiders’ pythagorean formula said the 2008 Broncos should have been a 4-12 team, and they were probably right.”<o:p></o:p>

“Often craptastic football outsider” That is what you thought about Football outsider recently, it seems odd you would use their highly speculative and inaccurate measure to support an argument. The 2009 Broncos were a 7-9 team corrected for Ed Hochuli. <o:p></o:p>

“The defense was literally the worst I’ve ever seen. It was absolutely hopeless in every way. The offense moved the ball well, but committed too many turnovers, and didn’t score points when it had opportunities to do so.”<o:p></o:p>

The defense this year is worse than the 2008 defense. 2008: 28 points per game, 2010: 29.4, 2008: 13 turnovers, 2010: 11 (expected 16 for the year). You should check this years defense if you want to see a worse defense. 2010 offense: 26 turnovers (38 expected for the year), 2008 offense: 36. 3<SUP>rd</SUP> down conversion, 2008: 48%, 2010: 34%. The 2010 offense is turning the ball over more than the 2008 offense did and converting many fewer 3<SUP>rd</SUP> downs and scoring fewer points per game.<o:p></o:p>

“Matt Cassel has produced on the field better than Cutler has, too.”<o:p></o:p>

Is it his 11-15 record with the Chiefs over Cutlers 15-12 record with the Bears that impress you the most or is it his 38 TDs to Cutlers 43 or is it 5200 yards to Cutlers 6000?<o:p></o:p>

“I believe that Cutler’s comments to the media probably offended and troubled McDaniels, before he even was hired.”<o:p></o:p>

And yet the day he was hired he said:<o:p></o:p>
"Jay is very talented. I have had an opportunity to watch him a number of times on film and in person once this year. He has a lot of ability. I know just from some of the information that I gathered on him coming out of college that he is a very intelligent person, a very intelligent player. He does a lot of things well. I think Jay is going to enjoy playing in this system, this offense. It is very quarterback friendly once you get to the point where you can use all the tools that it gives the quarterback. Obviously he is a very important part of our success going forward and I can't wait to get started working with him." Josh Mcdaniels press conference after he was hired.<o:p></o:p>

That doesn’t sound like someone who is offended and expecting a difficult relationship. I Think the fact that Cutler was at <st1:place w:st="on"><ST1:PDove valley</st1:place> every day working over the playbook with Mcdaniels right after he was hired is a good indication that you are wrong.
<o:p></o:p>
“Meanwhile, Wink Martindale’s scheme has been fine, if the execution hasn’t always been, mostly due to a ton of man-games lost on that side of the ball by key players.”
<o:p></o:p>
Really, it has been fine? The worst defense in Broncos history has been fine? I am not sure if you are mad or blind, but clearly one of the two. Martindale took over a defense that Nolan put in the top half of the league in every important category including points, yards, turnovers and sacks. Martindale has managed to put that defense with the addition of talented players like Perrish Cox, Jamal Williams, Justin Bannan, Joe Mays and Jason Hunter last in the league in points, in the bottom 10 in yards, turnovers, sacks and 3<SUP>rd</SUP> down conversions.<o:p></o:p>

Statistics aside (as they often dont tell the entire truth in football), just from a fans perspective, the defense in 08 was a lot worse than the D from this year. I think the day they came out in a 4-4 against Carolina was they day they solidified themselves as the epitome of futility. Not to mention, remember the feeling before the SD game? And didn't shanahan even say something to the effect of "we'll need to score on every drive to win"? Now, this defense is bad, real bad. But i think that 08 D will have to go down as the worst in Broncos history.

TheReverend
12-02-2010, 09:12 AM
Camerone wake would be stud with or without nolan. Just like elvis was putting up sacks before him.

Really?

Is that why he had to spend two years with the BC Lions in Canada? Why he went UDFA? Why he rode the pine for NYG and the pre Nolan Miami Dolphins?

zdoor
12-02-2010, 09:43 AM
Statistics aside (as they often dont tell the entire truth in football), just from a fans perspective, the defense in 08 was a lot worse than the D from this year. I think the day they came out in a 4-4 against Carolina was they day they solidified themselves as the epitome of futility. Not to mention, remember the feeling before the SD game? And didn't shanahan even say something to the effect of "we'll need to score on every drive to win"? Now, this defense is bad, real bad. But i think that 08 D will have to go down as the worst in Broncos history.

I think its like comparing a soft turd to a firm one... They're both turds..

gyldenlove
12-02-2010, 11:43 AM
Statistics aside (as they often dont tell the entire truth in football), just from a fans perspective, the defense in 08 was a lot worse than the D from this year. I think the day they came out in a 4-4 against Carolina was they day they solidified themselves as the epitome of futility. Not to mention, remember the feeling before the SD game? And didn't shanahan even say something to the effect of "we'll need to score on every drive to win"? Now, this defense is bad, real bad. But i think that 08 D will have to go down as the worst in Broncos history.

I have to agree with zdoor on that one, do you prefer projectile vomiting or explosive diarrhea? They both suck big time.

Statistically the defenses in 08 and 10 are equally bad, neither gets any pressure, generates any turnovers, stops 3rd downs or prevents TDs.

I would say coming out 4-3 against the Raiders this year looked pretty bad to me, and the score of the game tells me it didn't work. I am sorry to say this, but Martindale has no idea what the hell he is doing, he is throwing **** at the wall and hoping something sticks - just like Slowick did. At least Nolan had a plan and stuck with it, maybe it wasn't perfect, but it was better than nothing.

The worst thing is that our schedule this year has been soft, we have played 3 NFC West teams, a division that doesn't feature a single winning team, really the only good team we have played is the Ravens. I could understand getting killed like this if we played 10 playoff caliber teams, but that hasn't even been the case.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-02-2010, 11:54 AM
I have to agree with zdoor on that one, do you prefer projectile vomiting or explosive diarrhea? They both suck big time.

Statistically the defenses in 08 and 10 are equally bad, neither gets any pressure, generates any turnovers, stops 3rd downs or prevents TDs.

I would say coming out 4-3 against the Raiders this year looked pretty bad to me, and the score of the game tells me it didn't work. I am sorry to say this, but Martindale has no idea what the hell he is doing, he is throwing **** at the wall and hoping something sticks - just like Slowick did. At least Nolan had a plan and stuck with it, maybe it wasn't perfect, but it was better than nothing.

The worst thing is that our schedule this year has been soft, we have played 3 NFC West teams, a division that doesn't feature a single winning team, really the only good team we have played is the Ravens. I could understand getting killed like this if we played 10 playoff caliber teams, but that hasn't even been the case.

The Jets aren't a good team?

SonOfLe-loLang
12-02-2010, 11:56 AM
I have to agree with zdoor on that one, do you prefer projectile vomiting or explosive diarrhea? They both suck big time.

Statistically the defenses in 08 and 10 are equally bad, neither gets any pressure, generates any turnovers, stops 3rd downs or prevents TDs.

I would say coming out 4-3 against the Raiders this year looked pretty bad to me, and the score of the game tells me it didn't work. I am sorry to say this, but Martindale has no idea what the hell he is doing, he is throwing **** at the wall and hoping something sticks - just like Slowick did. At least Nolan had a plan and stuck with it, maybe it wasn't perfect, but it was better than nothing.

The worst thing is that our schedule this year has been soft, we have played 3 NFC West teams, a division that doesn't feature a single winning team, really the only good team we have played is the Ravens. I could understand getting killed like this if we played 10 playoff caliber teams, but that hasn't even been the case.

Hmm....i prefer explosive diarrhea...provided im at home with nothing to do.

Mile High Shack
12-02-2010, 12:05 PM
The Jets aren't a good team?

their offense isn't

bronco militia
12-02-2010, 12:11 PM
the Jets are good enough

lostknight
12-02-2010, 12:15 PM
So you were against the physical practices, TJ? Seems like everyone was on board at the time.


;-)

Dumervil's injury came in a non-contact drill, so I don't really see how it's relevant.

Which still makes me wonder if the conditioning and prep work from the coaches was sufficient prior to the drill.

SonOfLe-loLang
12-02-2010, 12:17 PM
;-)


Which still makes me wonder if the conditioning and prep work from the coaches was sufficient prior to the drill.

Sometimes injuries happen...its the human body

TheReverend
12-02-2010, 12:29 PM
So you were against the physical practices, TJ? Seems like everyone was on board at the time.

Dumervil's injury came in a non-contact drill, so I don't really see how it's relevant.

I think he's saying it made zero impact on the "toughness" of the football team

...or on their tackling ability.

gyldenlove
12-02-2010, 12:56 PM
the Jets are good enough

The only convincing win that team has had since week 5 was against Cincinnati, they were lucky to beat us, lucky to beat the Lions, Texans and Cleveland, and frankly I don't think a good team should need luck to beat 4 bad teams. The Jets are 2-2 against teams who have a winning record, one of the wins came against the 6-5 Dolphins. They are a decent team with a very easy schedule.

Kaylore
12-02-2010, 01:06 PM
I think he's saying it made zero impact on the "toughness" of the football team

...or on their tackling ability.

Actually we do tackle better than the '07 team did.

Popps
12-02-2010, 01:14 PM
Actually we do tackle better than the '07 team did.

But it's not as exciting. Less helmets flying all over the field and 4 minute dance routines after routine tackles.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-02-2010, 01:25 PM
But it's not as exciting. Less helmets flying all over the field and 4 minute dance routines after routine tackles.

you forgot that those routine tackles happened 30 yards downfield... THEN the dancing!

gyldenlove
12-02-2010, 01:30 PM
But it's not as exciting. Less helmets flying all over the field and 4 minute dance routines after routine tackles.

I don't know man, I saw Jason Hunter pull some pretty sick move after a 2 yard stop on 1st down when we were down by 20 to the Rams.

Taco John
12-02-2010, 01:33 PM
So you were against the physical practices, TJ? Seems like everyone was on board at the time.

Dumervil's injury came in a non-contact drill, so I don't really see how it's relevant.

I was skeptical, but willing to see how they panned out. How do you think they're panning out?

TheReverend
12-02-2010, 01:42 PM
Actually we do tackle better than the '07 team did.

I can't say I agree.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-02-2010, 01:45 PM
I was skeptical, but willing to see how they panned out. How do you think they're panning out?

I thought any change that might make us a tougher football team down the stretch was something worth exploring.

How'd we do late in the season with creampuff practices?

orinjkrush
12-02-2010, 05:55 PM
i think we should bring back romo for strength and conditioning that dude was amazing for understanding the human body. and he would prolly know all the limits.

plus he could spit in a few players eyes just to make em hostile.